pluto in capricorn in 2008

[MOZART]

pluto is moving into the sign of capricorn in 2008...capricorn is the sign of structure, dicipline, suffering...etc....when we talk world wide...can someone know...how it will affect this major change in sign to the world...specially USA...and south america...since USA independence is in july 4...cancer .....as well as colombia and venezuela...and other few countries ...I can not remember now......:) ....thanks.....

[Natasha]

Capricorn is also an earth sign and its the most transpersonal of the three earth signs ie includes the 'bigger picture / world at large etc at a horary scale.
As Pluto nudges towards Cap the issues of 'the environment' and how we are effecting it and limited resources is moving more into center stage.
I feel cap is also about big government & the big corporate world.

We always see the shadow come up when pluto moves into a sign but also something from the 'great below' comes to the surface to be investigated & scrutinized. Its often some taboo issue for the times. In other words some 'sacred cow' can be called to give reason why its should remain a sacred cow.
Pluto demands truth when he enters a sign or goes into aspect and is activiated.
Here in Oz much emphasis has recently been drawn to households being more energy conscious. But no one is calling the corporates here to be accountable for their energy use. Bad corporate building design (hermeticlaly sealed structures with huge expanses of glass in a very sunny glary country) forces office buildings & public transport etc etc to run 24 7 and not a word is uttered by environmental or governments to even think of a better alternative. I would like to think that Pluto in Cap will force the corporates to be more accountable of their consumption of natural resources & the effect they are causing with creation of cities like Melbourne being 'heat islands' due to AC use etc

[flea]

Pluto in sag saw religion come under the microscope.

Catholic Church scandals, and terrorism and war espoused under the GOD banner.

However quietly I think individuals are re-evalutating their spiritual belief system.

Foreign Policy, Higher Education are some other areas that have come under scrutiny. The reasons they having been giving for certain actions have come to be seen as false with another agenda operating.

Mutable Fire.... Flexible Inspiration

The truth will out under Pluto....

So Capricorn is associated with governance of all kinds. The business world hold enormous power within government, so both systems are in for some light shining.

Cardinal Earth..... An Active Physicality

How we are physcially treating the earth and what influences government and business is having on the way people live.

India and China are seeing large numbers of small farmers displaced to the cities to allow large corporations to produce a limited number of crops, using some very suspect long term methods. There is a very large wholesale change (imbalance) in the ecology of the planet happening at the moment, well for the last ten years that is increasing rapidly.

Oil may also be a big factor in Pluto in Cap. Oil can withstand huge pressure, so what is the impact on the planets continental plates when you take a significant proportion of this material from the earth's crust?

Very interesting shift I will watch with interest. Also see what the closing stages of Pluto in Sag bring.

Love Light Peace
Flea

[spirittoo]

Hello everyone ... this is my first post ... and this topic is exactly why I sought out Astrology forums ... Pluto in Capricorn ... I saw one poster state that it will shine light on the government and corporate world ...
... my question is will the light change things for the better? Will it completely expose the election fraud, the torture, the lies to occupy countries? Will it finally wake the masses?
... Will "we the people" of the US be able to stop the corruption in government and remove big buisness from the election process? :34:

... or will it go the other way ... with more corruption and control of the masses?

... I like the icons ... :38::59::60:

[gaer]

A reminder that Pluto will not be in Capricorn and stay there until near the end of 2008, in November.

Apr. 1, 2007: Pluto 1Cap09 Rx

April Fools Day for Pluto, as it plays a joke on all of us and heads back into Sag. :)

June 14th, 2008: Pluto 29Sag59 Rx
Sept. 8th, 2008: Pluto 28Sag30, first day of direct motion

FINALLY: Nov. 27th, 2008: Pluto enters Capricorn "for real"…

Right now it's "on the fence". :)

[Derestanne]

... Will "we the people" of the US be able to stop the corruption in government and remove big buisness from the election process? :34:

... or will it go the other way ... with more corruption and control of the masses? ... :38::59::60:

I rather expect BOTH. Some Countries and States will side with the interests of their own citizens, while others are probably going straight to "Despot Hell"!

The Pluto - Jupiter Conjunction of January 25th is a Gigantic Buzzsaw! Whoever / Whatever is on the right side of it has absolutely nothing to fear, but for those insane enough to stand in the way, there will be a trail of sawdust and tomato juice where whatever once stood!

I made a number of Predictions about this Conjunction on the thread entitled: Looking Ahead to 2008 - A few observations. It is at:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7541

Look to the Capricorn Countries / States / Nations. They will be providing guidance and structure in these times. India is a Capricorn Country. Their Stock Market has reached never before seen record levels in the past 2 weeks because a huge amount of foreign investment monies are going there! Merril Lynch said India is an excellent place to safely invest now!

The USA and Canada are Cancerian Countries, which opposes the Jupiter - Pluto in Capricorn Conjunction; their time of spotlight and domination on the World Stage is finished!

Sorry about the bold text, it would not shut off! I find that very telling all by itself!

[Delphia]

I absolutely agree that the turmoil in the stock markets coming with Pluto nearing Capricorn is not any coincidence. I just hope that the upcoming period is a positive wake up call for all those who have wanted to ignore the elephant in the living room. I believe that awareness can be positive and of course dear Pluto gives us no choice but to become aware! At any rate whatever is simmering in the collective unconscious will be revealed.

There was a part of me that wanted to run off today to some nearby forest and become self sufficient, but then I would miss all the fun:)

[Natasha]

He just ingressed into Cap at about 1:37pm this afternoon
Hmmm we have been waiting with baited breath for his entrance and here it is
An astrologer / herbalist friend called me the other day to say well Pluto is in Cap the stock market has crashed. At first I thought it was an early april fool joke. hehheh Fortunately I was adivsed by a friend that the market is recovering quite well from its mini crashette.
I dont wish the poor old market to crash as its world impact would be bad and tend to think that this will not be. (but that is just a hunch)

As I said before I feel that the emphasis will be on environmental issues and the effect we are having on this planet. I say this because in the period leading up to the ingress the emphasis here has shifted from refugees terrorism fundamentalist religions to how we are consuming environmental resource

I think some of it has been turned around by the corporates to be a spin for their benefit. But that happens with anything with the smart psychologically savvy minds doing advertising.
THe the underlying theme is that now we are hearing about and thinking about consumption of our planets resources.

Of course other cappy things will come into play I am sure

For my opinion and that of many in the corporate law world, we feel the corporate govanance here in Oz is terrible. We have the law but its ignored. Consequently directors just milk the companies for their own personal gain and shareholders have little they can do. Directors are paid obscene salaries & given huge amounts of the companies shares with the argument that it will make them more loyal and have less self interest. But it appears not to be working.
This could be called to account in some way also.
The US has recovered from a similar experiance with post Enron & post Arthur Anderson which weakened the country and now apply rigorous corporate governance. Perhaps Oz will have to have another big crashed company which does damage the corporate world. This is Pluto in Cap stuff - the corporate world being riddled (ie the public company directors & othe senior mgmt) with ego and power so it could be ripe for question by the lord of the underworlds visit to cap

[Delphia]

Natasha, I am in agreement with all your points. I do agree that this pluto ingress has everything to do with resources, and the powers that control them. Your entry reminds me a lot of a discussion this am with a friend who is delighted at the thought of corporate greed and government corruption coming to take center stage. He is quite distressed about these issues. He is not an astrologer and I discussed with him the transit of Pluto in Sagittarius...the outing of varying belief systems and various 'religious wars'. He reminded me that most major religions like Catholicism are run like large corporations, and he said he felt there may be much upheaval there as well. I thought he had a good point.

In addition, I am an amateur astronomer and followed the 'de-planeting' of Pluto by the Astronomical Union. Most astronomers debunk Astrology, but I felt they almost proved they must believe at some level due to their timing in trying to dismiss Pluto! Any thoughts about this idea?

[Natasha]

Hi Delphia - great name - the place in Greece where the oracles resided
I think many people refuse to believe in astrology as they fear the unknown
They also fear the word fate as we in the 'west' are not well versed with actual fate and how it is woven with free will and choices we actually make

Many People also feel safer nowadays just believing in what they can see touch and what scientists can prove in a lab.

Also our culture has an either or mentality. My cousin who studied philosophy think its linked up with the monotheistic religion which our culture has embraced for over 2000 years. Because if my god is right your god must be wrong due to the premise that there can only be one god

Also the church did a lot in the past to put fear into people about anything prophetic or oracular or visionary which did not come thru them. The witch burnings and inquisitions basically altered our race memory think about this some say

Also today science is seen as able to answer everything - so conversly if it cant be proved by science then it is not worthy
Soemtimes I wonder if science has replaced the church in its dictate
Science is a valuable tool which no one wants to be without but it does not need to answer everything to be relevant imo

[Delphia]

Excellent points Natasha. I am so excited to know there are others who are looking at this 'either or' mentality. There is a wonderful article in the Mountain Astrologer magazine by Maurice Lavenant where he talks about the Pluto ingress into Capricorn in the 1500's and theorizes that this period essentially produced the changes in the human psyche that created this either or mentality. Its hard to paraphrase but at least thats one point I took from this article.

The monotheistic religion your cousin refers to I believe had its roots in this earlier culture and of course Pluto in Sag has REALLY shown its fruits. Anyway, food for thought.
In America, there has been plenty of effort especially lately to 'divide and conquer' by the powers that be, but I feel there is also a global effort to reinstate what worked well in the 1500's. All fear related. I sincerely doubt it will work this time. Certainly, I believe that the consciousness of humanity has evolved since then! All of the collective consiousness planets are in the collective signs..Cap, Aqu and Pisces. I think something is really brewing under the surface:)

[Kingsley]

Well, according to my software Pluto has gone over into Capricorn. It is not raining goats or anything however it might pay to check any midpoints at 00 00 Cap or Cancer to see how the new flavour might be introduced for you.

I have sun/jupiter at 00 cancer and according to Ebertin, that is the expectation of good fortune and luck. We will see.

kingsley

[Natasha]

So your right in your Pluto opposite Sun and Jupiter then
I have my moon at 0:38 degrees Libra and have been 'feeling' the entrance of Pluto since Jupiter ingressed into Cap in mid December 08

[Kingsley]

no no, just my midpoint, which is different.

Hmm, pluto sq Moon, sorry to hear that. I think you are spot on about the Jupiter ingress into capricorn. There was so much going on in sag then. Its like theywere plotting and planning how things would go in capricorn once the two move over the other side

k

[Natasha]

no no, just my midpoint, which is different.
k
Do you think is this a trigger Kingsley. I dont use midpoints but have heard people discuss them. Its interesting. You said it could be beneficial - Thinking of the two planets one can understand that this could be so.
Would it trigger the aspect between the two planets perhaps

[Kingsley]

yes Natasha, the midpoint is a mixed form of energy that can be triggeredjust like a transit. The ones to watch are solar arc midpoints to natal planets in matters of health. There are a few combos to use but transits of outers can have some impact.

k

[flea]

Oh my Kingsley,

I had a look and thought no no, no midpoints here.... Sun/Moon at 1Libra square pluto coming up. yet another transformation, Pluto hit my sun 5 years ago and that was a biggy. Going though some stuff health wise.....trying to be patient. Out with the old in with the new....

As for pluto demoted, dont we all wish we didn't have to deal with our shadow. Denying it is there doesn't make it go away though.

Love Light Flea

[Kingsley]

sounds like you have been through a lot lately Flea. I wouldn't worry too much about the midpoint square pluto compared to recent Pluto contacts in the chart. Even the conjunction of this midpoint there will be at most an underlying tension or intensity in relationshps. Changes in circumstances etc, however it seems that you have already done that?

kingsley

[Galactic_Night]

Ok, this will probably sound like the stupidest question to you guys, but here it goes :o....Do you mean that Pluto is physically in the constellation of Capricorn?

I have a program downloaded called 'Stellarium' and it doesn't actually have Pluto physically there till around 2028 or so....So what do you mean?

Like here is a picture of Pluto today from the program.

http://i27.tinypic.com/wtaww9.jpg

[Derestanne]

Hi Galactic_Night,

No, Pluto is not now physically "in" the constellation of Capricorn. It that were true, then the Earth would be "a stone's throw" away from Capricorn as well!

Pulto is "aligned" with Capricorn now. Astrology Chart's are generally drawn in two dimensions; the depths of space cannot be illustrated on a flat piece of paper. Only if we have a three dimensional model could the actual distance between Pluto and the nearest star in Capricorn be illustrated. There are some Astronomy Software Programs that attempt to convey spatial distance.

But for Astrologers, we generally work with two dimensional Charts. Astrologers are not concerned with spatial distance between heavenly bodies but the alignment of heavenly bodies is of critical importance in our work.

Does this clear things up a bit?

[Galactic_Night]

Hi Galactic_Night,

No, Pluto is not now physically "in" the constellation of Capricorn. It that were true, then the Earth would be "a stone's throw" away from Capricorn as well!

Pulto is "aligned" with Capricorn now. Astrology Chart's are generally drawn in two dimensions; the depths of space cannot be illustrated on a flat piece of paper. Only if we have a three dimensional model could the actual distance between Pluto and the nearest star in Capricorn be illustrated. There are some Astronomy Software Programs that attempt to convey spatial distance.

But for Astrologers, we generally work with two dimensional Charts. Astrologers are not concerned with spatial distance between heavenly bodies but the alignment of heavenly bodies is of critical importance in our work.

Does this clear things up a bit?

Yes, I think so...Thank you.

[spirittoo]

Wow ... you guys are really heavy into this ... I'm just a beginner compared to you even though I've studied modern astrology for years ... what form of astrology are you using to gain insight into this matter?:34:Is it Horary?

There certainly is a great deal to learn here about what is happening underneath the surface ... :59:

... is there a place on the form to gain more insight on my own chart? The Natal section perhaps?

Very interesting points being made in this thread ... definitely some shakes and moves will be going on ... I think the one poster was right about people becoming more aware and corporations gaining more power ... the problem or question is who will make the most gains?



Really like this one ... :60:

[Derestanne]

Hi Spirittoo,

You bet we're Heavy here - just like a Dark Matter Star or Jupiter at an All You Can Eat Buffet Bar! Sometimes we are even more heavy here than Yoghurt (Mel Brooks) in the Movie SPACEBALLS! Occasionally, we even frighten ourselves, just like "Dark Helmet" does in the same movie!

Seriously, you are welcome to Post your Birth Stats in the Natal Section, if not myself, surely someone will offer some insights about your Birth Chart.

[Kingsley]

I think perhaps your program is set with precessional basis. Western Astrology uses a tropical zodiac. Perhaps your calculations would be correct for Vedic or sidereal charts

k

[Neptune Rising]

Interesting point, about midpoints Kingsley
I had a peek, I've got North node/Sun midpoints at 1 degree Cappy.. I think that will/is giving me a 'take charge' type of effect. Sun rules the 9th house, well I'm starting a study course in Feb..


I've also become very conscious of recycling lately, more than I've ever been. And I'm trying to subtly show others how to do it. It would be great if this type of thing was in the collective uncouscious.


Interesting! Thanks!
NR

[Derestanne]

I've also become very conscious of recycling lately, more than I've ever been. And I'm trying to subtly show others how to do it. It would be great if this type of thing was in the collective uncouscious.

You too Neptune? I've tried to do my part, but starting about 3 months ago, I've done more recycling than I have in a good while.

I can't help but wonder if it's also Saturn in Virgo that has something to do with it!

[Kingsley]

Seems as though you will have some influence in some matters Neptune. Matters of compulsion with regard to connecting with others. It is about a group you may belong to Neptune, like this one. Not bad, but perhaps the way you connect with groups will change somewhat.

k

[Neptune Rising]

Thats great Derestanne, me to, about a couple of months ago. At work, we even got some, well one, of the bosses to recycle.. your right, Saturn could be involved, in Earth sign, getting in touch with the planet.
NR

[Neptune Rising]

Seems as though you will have some influence in some matters Neptune. Matters of compulsion with regard to connecting with others. It is about a group you may belong to Neptune, like this one. Not bad, but perhaps the way you connect with groups will change somewhat.

k
Thanks Kingsley

I'm trying to get a website up and running about yoga/philosohpies and balance to get some sort of message out to the public. Would this midpoint Pluto meeting have anything to do with that? Would it help in any way?

NR

[Kingsley]

Yes, I believe so. That is a great way to use the Pluto and midpoint function Neptune.

k

[Neptune Rising]

Thanks Kingsley!

[Delphia]

Well, according to my software Pluto has gone over into Capricorn. It is not raining goats or anything however it might pay to check any midpoints at 00 00 Cap or Cancer to see how the new flavour might be introduced for you.

I have sun/jupiter at 00 cancer and according to Ebertin, that is the expectation of good fortune and luck. We will see.

kingsley

I LOL..d with your comment Kingsley. Raining goats..still chuckling. It is so true and indeed Pluto is a slow mover. Mainstream astrological theory is that these slow planets don't cause such delight in a day's time as I felt yesterday.

Checking midpoints is an excellent idea but in my case closest I had is Uranus-Mercury at 02 Cancer. Anyway, lucky you with Sun conj. Jupiter. The interesting thing is that you have it at 0 Cancer. That configuration almost makes me feel the energies of a generous and caring but reluctant king:)

I am lucky to have Jupiter on my ascendant. I had moved away from here but moved back about 10 years ago...100 miles north of that birthplace Jupiter Ascendant line. The truth is I have luckier than most could ask for and fell into a cushy and well paying job here when I returned from which I will retire with excellent pension next year. Jupiter is a biggie!

[Delphia]

Procession (sp?) has created a situation where our symbols are really about 23 degrees off the actual sky. Another reason scientists say we are quacks. Vedic folks use sidereal or "actual" zodiac. Western Astrology works anyway, so I feel like if it works...don't fix it.

[flea]

My sun/moon point is opp my dad's sun currently both square pluto. Both of us have hit some difficult health problems, his much more challenging than mine. But both challenging and changing the way we relate to our bodies. I have always thought that capricorn is the sign that most closely aligns with the earth herself, and the body, in a way is our personal version of the earth, the experience of being material. Cap rules skin and I have that big time, as I mentioned before eczema after thirty years and another big wave of heat this last week.

I know this is personal stuff, and well I wanted to write about more general stuff, but it always comes out. Is this a jupiter gem and asc thing, experiencing the world through writing in the first person rather than the third person. Not many people seem to write in the first person. Wonder if it is difficult thing to do.

rambling so stopping....

Love Light Flea

[Kingsley]

Hello Flea, as soon as you said about the week of heat I knew you were from Perth. Good to hear from someone in the same latitude and longitude.

Another similarity for us at the moment is what you say about health and fathers. My father is recuperating from heart valve surgery. I have some fatigue related issues. I guess that is our connection and this forum.

Hope things cool down soon

k

[Natasha]

Procession (sp?) has created a situation where our symbols are really about 23 degrees off the actual sky. Another reason scientists say we are quacks. Vedic folks use sidereal or "actual" zodiac. Western Astrology works anyway, so I feel like if it works...don't fix it.

Indeed
Astrology is geocentric as we humans live on the earth not on the sun
scientists scoff at geocentric because astromony was geo centric in the middle ages when astromony had to answer to the church who based the rule on the bibles interpretation of the universe.

For me I see the science model as relevant when you look at the universe as a scientific model

But the geocentric works for astrology because its about our personal psyches who live on this planet & look upward from the earth to see the stars.

[Chi-Ron]

Pluto connects us individually and collectively with our underworld, like the center of our being or world (Pluto rules volcanoes for instance). This is where we place that powerful yet taboo part of ourself that often is the truly authentic part. Pluto's action is to bring up all this hot yet deep and previously buried part to the surface so that it can be made conscious. Its actions are commonly 3-fold...first the destructive part, then the walk into the unknown (or desert) and finally the phoenix rising out of the ashes that were destroyed.
With Pluto moving out of the sign of the quest for truth and meaning (Sagittarius) and into the sign of public administration and authority (Capricorn), we will first see things that bridge both signs, i.e., we will get an opportunity to show what we've learned in Sagittarius through how we choose to now administer power. In other words, we may soon find out that the power grab that is taking place worldwide, including in your home country of Venezuela, is actually motivated at a deep level by the search for truth...still seeking it in the outer realms. For instance, Iraq is the former Sumeria/Babylon. Therefore the religious implications are every bit as potent as the oil. As Pluto moves further into Capricorn, we will see further consolidation of power grabs by corporate (particularly of foreign [Sagittarian] $$$ buying corporate America). As this and America's falling $$ will heighten worries about losing America's "idenity" or "control" [control is a favorite downside of Pluto], the people will become even more anxious, possibly even rebellious over the next few years. Do not be surprised if the rebellion is "Gandhish" in style, whereby unified Americans band together to either stop buying or stop paying taxes to a gov't who is obviously not listening or representing the people. Either way, a serious blow to the corporate-gov't megalopoly/plutocracy that seems to be the current situation in America.
As for your country (Venezuela), remember that Pluto rules underground wealth (therefore has a strong affinity with Neptune regarding oil). As we are now moving out of the over-soul age of Pisces (ruled by Neptune/Oil), all the Piscean issues are coming to the forefront. Imagine, if you will, a completely new (sky or heaven based...i.e. Aquarian) fuel or power source. Imagine what impact it might have on the the Arabic world and countries like Venezuela, who derive much of their power from their oil? This will not come about, however, until after the American economy implodes under the literal "weight" of her debt and over-extendedness...the same thing that is the Achilles Heal of all empires.
Chi-Ron

[Kingsley]

Nice post Chi Ron. The Saturn trine Pluto should be interesting.

[Sag Moon]

I have Ju/Pl exact trine natally with a nasty Mars Sqaure from the 11th to Ju-7th cusp.

Ju is at 2Cap at the DES and I am hoping it will serve as a good period for me,it will be the last of the outer planes passing through that point.

I shalll be glad when it does play out as I am tired from having Pluto and a Ne sq. to my Sn at the moment.

I fear the Uranus ingress into Aries the most actually.For humanity it will be an intense period.

[flea]

http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/PaulHawken.html

This is an article by Paul Hawken author of Blessed Unrest. It talks about the demonstrations in Seattle in 2000. Oldish but interesting. Gives insight into some of the unsustainable methods of governance used today. When we honour the value of all peoples and the earth itself in our governments then pluto will have done its job I think.

tell me what you think of the article anyway....

Love Light Flea

[Svencanz]

Hi Natasha, Delphia, and Kingsley,

My teacher Vywamus says 95 per cent of the pain on earth today is caused by us thinking according to the polarized model; and I would agree that this model is rooted, boosted by the three main singular religions (which is the same religion.)
Vywamus says it's not even that hard to stop doing polarized thinking, it's just an ingrained habit. I have worked with this quite a bit over the years, and was taken for lessons by V during night at one stage: it was amazing.
Now, many years ago people talked about people being in a polarized state during a discussion, for instance. This is a really locked dynamic, which can be solved by introducing a third party.
The polarized thinking I am talking about here happens way before that; it is the subtle, occuring on several levels, habitual flow of doing yes-no, up-down in our background thinking.

For me, astrology is a good help to stop doing polarized, habitual thinking as it does not follow standard scientific modes (science is changing too, by the way)
Because a Sun-Pluto square, for instance, does not "make" anything happen; but an event cannot happen WITHOUT there being an astrological potential for it. And just like Kingsley says, this astrological, causal factor can be a midpoint behind it.
I once had a client who had a rough time that was only explained by a heavy midpoint opposition (cant remember the planets) to her sun in the progressed chart. I have also seen many natal traits in a person only described by midpoint aspects. I do not know if Kingsley uses the "standard" 45 degree midpoints; but my understanding (from the Magi Society) is that it's better to use the 30-degree midpoints. This works for me.

Sven