sextuplets

[tikana]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/parenting/06/16/minnesota.sextuplets.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest

anyone has birthdata on this?

i think parents should be held accountable.

Tik

[Shaun]

Hi, tikana.

It's possible that an adverse Jupiter could be involved in connection to the 5th house planets of a horoscope. I would have to look more into that, but the 5th house would invariably be involved (and perhaps the Sun and Moon as well).

Take care,

Shaun

[Carole]

Well, the parents decided to act against medical advice. That makes them responsible for their babies' death.


Carole

[tikana]

Carole, exactly!

Tk

[dancinglight]

Well, the parents decided to act against medical advice. That makes them responsible for their babies' death.


Carole

Medical advice is just that, advice.

There are a LOT of ethical considerations involved in a situation like this. Doctors aren't always right either. They are the ones prescribing the fertility drugs, implanting multiple embryos to ensure one 'takes'....and when there are 4, 5, 6 babies as a result, that's a disaster! Certainly they bear some of the responsibility.

For a couple that has been infertile, the decision to selectively reduce the number of embryos would be an agonizing one. In many cases the couple's religious/spiritual beliefs would not permit them to even consider it. And there is a risk of losing ALL of the babies with that procedure.

It's just a mess. When you think of all the expense and heartache involved in many of these reproductive technologies, you have to wonder why so many couples going that route couldn't be content to adopt.

(Obviously not an astrological take on things, but I found the comments towards the parents a bit harsh. I suspect all the babies will eventually die or be severely handicapped, 22 weeks is barely viable).:(

[tikana]

it is not ethical issue

it is medical... I am sure if you were the doctor, you would come to the same conclusion after seeing xrays and blood test results. I am sure the doctors said "we told you so" in a nicer way of course.

how many children do have to die to satisfy a woman's "We continue to trust in the Lord and are hopeful for a good outcome for Cadence, Lucia and Sylas," or her 5 minutes of fame

I TRULY wonder what did she say when all six of them were born. If a pregancy is high risk, I wouldnt risk having all six kids. I would play safe but then i have common sense.

The first sextuplets to survive in america are Harris sextuplets
http://www.harrissextuplets.net/

on their website, they state "the couple has found meeting the financial demands of their large family a constant struggle." Dont people do research before they have children? how many of them can they afford? 1st thing i would ask myself *can i actually afford any number of kids?* i am not even talking about college tuition then ask myself " how many of them can i afford?" I would not put my kids through the state's aid/welfare and etc. why use the state's aid when it can go to more needy families. I want my kid/kids to have a normal life.

I guess twins werent enough if she descparately tried to have kids before and the only solution was artifical insanimation or another method.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/12/sextuplet.boom.ap/index.html

here is another set of sextuplets http://www.maschemiracles.com/

date of birth
June 11, 2007
8:21 am, 8:22 am, 8:23 am, 8:24 am, 8:25 am, 8:26 am
Peoria, Arizona

Tik

[dancinglight]

I disagree, but won't get into a battle with you.

Any manipulation of a woman's ability to reproduce that results in 6 babies being conceived DOES have ethical implications....as well as medical, financial, emotional.....and as I've said before, it's a disaster.

I've been a neonatal nurse for 23 years, and have seen a lot in my career. It's probably given me a very different perspective than you. I haven't met a mother yet that would trade 'five minutes of fame' for a healthy baby/babies.

Anyhow, I have to go work a night shift.....the little twin guys I looked after last night are waiting for me ;-).

[Carole]

Mmmmmm...I respect and admire nurses a lot.

This subject is a bit controversial, but I didn't mean to seem judgemental, let alone to hurt anyone's susceptibility. I just think this world would be a better place if some people learned to face the consequences of their deeds instead blaming it on God's will and then expect sympathy.

There are many women who cannot conceive. The problem with it is that Nature is wise and everything happens for a good reason, but these women won't understand. I know they want to have a baby, but... why to use those 'extra' babies as if they were disposable meat?? It's kind of shocking, really.

I know each one of us human beings are different and have different points of view, but we could be careful about what we use or abuse in our quest for wish fulfillment.

I agree about the responsibility being shared as much by the parents as by the doctors. The technology was there for them to buy it. There were risks they had to take, and they took them. But if the doctors told them to reduce the number of viable fetuses and they didn't follow the advice, who is responsible for their babies' death?

I wonder as well, if they want so much to have a baby... Why not to even consider the idea of adoption, being so many the babies who are in need of a loving and caring family? There are so many women around who are pregnant and they don't want their babies. Is not this world crazy? I am asking too many questions and I am mourning those babies and they are not mine. I must be definitely out of my mind!:(

I think this is what Tikana and I meant to point out.


Carole

[tikana]

Carole,

Mmmmmm...I respect and admire nurses a lot.

** i am with you on this ***

This subject is a bit controversial, but I didn't mean to seem judgemental, let alone to hurt anyone's susceptibility. I just think this world would be a better place if some people learned to face the consequences of their deeds instead blaming it on God's will and then expect sympathy.


** YEPP! ***

There are many women who cannot conceive. The problem with it is that Nature is wise and everything happens for a good reason, but these women won't understand. I know they want to have a baby, but... why to use those 'extra' babies as if they were disposable meat?? It's kind of shocking, really.


** UH UH! conceive twins, if she is so crazy about kids, adopt more later! ****

I know each one of us human beings are different and have different points of view, but we could be careful about what we use or abuse in our quest for wish fulfillment.

I agree about the responsibility being shared as much by the parents as by the doctors. The technology was there for them to buy it. There were risks they had to take, and they took them. But if the doctors told them to reduce the number of viable fetus and they didn't follow the advice, who is responsible for their babies' death?

** parents! ***

I wonder as well, if they want so much to have a baby... Why not to even consider the idea of adoption, being so many the babies who are in need of a loving and caring family? There are so many women around who are pregnant and they don't want their babies. Is not this world crazy? I am asking too many questions and I am mourning those babies and they are not mine. I must be definitely out of my mind!:(

I think this is what Tikana and I meant to point out.

**** you got my point exactly ***

Tik

[tikana]

I disagree, but won't get into a battle with you.

Any manipulation of a woman's ability to reproduce that results in 6 babies being conceived DOES have ethical implications....as well as medical, financial, emotional.....and as I've said before, it's a disaster.

I've been a neonatal nurse for 23 years, and have seen a lot in my career. It's probably given me a very different perspective than you. I haven't met a mother yet that would trade 'five minutes of fame' for a healthy baby/babies.

Anyhow, I have to go work a night shift.....the little twin guys I looked after last night are waiting for me ;-).

*** she wont carry a banner or yell from the top of her lungs... if you look closer you might find the alterior reason. ***

can you tell that i have pluto in my 5th house now?

Tik

[dancinglight]

"I know each one of us human beings are different and have different points of view, but we could be careful about what we use or abuse in our quest for wish fulfillment."

So true.

I can understand the desire of couples to experience pregnancy and childbirth. There comes a point, though, where the whole process becomes obsessive, and all the advances in reproductive technology feeds that obsession.

I have no doubt that ego is involved in a big way, because adoption is usually seen as an admission of failure. Some of the most amazing people I have met in my work have been foster parents who accept high need babies and love them unconditionally (many times adopting them because they become SO bonded with them). These people have huge hearts.

Here's a perfect example of "just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do it" (as it relates to pregnancy....)

A single mom in her 30's had a planned pregnancy via artificial insemination. Not content with simply parenting / adopting a child who might have been waiting for a loving home, she wanted the experience of pregnancy and childbirth. (There's that ego/ wish fufillment issue!!!) Her child was premature, has unusual features and some medical issues (the baby appears to have a syndrome of some sort). She is not in a relationship and you have to wonder how much support her birth family can provide to help her cope with the stress of a developmentally delayed child.

But she had the money and thought she had the resources to do this (AND didn't need a man in her life). What a responsibility she has now, all on her shoulders.

I could write a book, some of the stuff we see!

Thanks for your kind words, Carole. I love my job and the babies, they are such amazing little souls. :)

[tikana]

Dancinglight

HUH what?

i am sorry .. did i misread "I have no doubt that ego is involved in a big way, because adoption is usually seen as an admission of failure."
where are you getting this? Eastern european mentality? Orphan kids are often considered to be 2nd grade *in eastern europe, at least*
In the US, adoption is considered to be one of the most self-sacrificing deeds a person can do. I WAS ADOPTED not because my mom couldnt have kids but because she couldnt find a honorable man to have children with. She had a hubby but they split a few years after they got married. After I came, my mom couldnt stand the idea of her potential hubby to look at me as not his own. Dig? my family all stood by my mom's decision. Adoption of children can be A. expensive B. difficult due to the way courts are set up in these manners. C. there are a lot of scam organizations out there. There are plenty of people who adopt children and raise them as their own.

"A single mom in her 30's had a planned pregnancy via artificial
insemination. Not content with simply parenting / adopting a child who might
have been waiting for a loving home, she wanted the experience of
pregnancy and childbirth."

so what is wrong with a desire to expience pregnancy and childbirth? A mother bonds with her child when he/she is inside of her then it goes through breastfeeding and raisigna a child. I dont see any ego issue. Maybe the woman has unresolved issues with her own mother and to heal herself and do what she couldnt do with her own mom she can do with her baby. My mom obviously didnt breastfeed me but she knows with her sixth sense what i am doing at all times. I am a lot like my mom but I have inherited a lot from my biofather *i am pretty sure of that.* my mom's friend slept with a guy just to get pregant. her daugther was raised by a single mom. She turned out to be one great person, not only that but she is a terrific piano player. Another friend of my mom's had a baby almost the same way, he is world wide known violinist. She didnt eat well at all so her son can go to music school which was 3 hours away from their house in a cold winter. Now, she lives in a flat, her windows are looking directly at Luvre, Paris. I was there 12 years ago.

There is a couple i forgot where from but they live in the US, they are in their late 50s. They went to Russia to deliver toys for xmas. They went to an orphanage. One girl came up to them and hugged them, nothing more. They returned to the US. within 3-4 weeks, the wife said to her hubby "i dont knwo how to ask this but remember that little girl?" the hubby right away said "i was afriad to bring it up before. I guess i was afraid that you will say No. let's adopt her." Anyway within 2 months, they were back in Russia filing adopton papers. They have their own kids. they were all in their earliy 40s or something. There was one glitch, this little girl has a sister. They adopted both of them. Adoption fees are staggering each adoption can run 40-60k each case. They put everything into this adoption expense. They mortgaged the house, took the loans but came back with 2 little girls within 9 months or so. The girls kept their first and last names. Their parents keep those girls close to their Russian roots and culture.

I want to have one on my own and adopt at least 1. Not because of some kind of ego trip but something I MUST DO. There are plenty of homeless/orphan children out there that need a loving home.

Tik

[dancinglight]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

I was making reference to the 'obsessive' nature of people who MUST have their own child despite the tremendous expense, invasive procedures, and years of trying....who refuse to consider adoption because that would mean they have given up having children "of their own". So yes, I wonder that ego is involved. I understand the wish to experience pregnancy and childbirth, but there seems to be a reluctance to accept that things might not happen for a reason.

I already commented on how selfless and loving an act I think fostering and adoption is, so you needn't be rude.

As for the Mom I mentioned, it was an illustration of Carole's comment. I think that the decision to get pregnant isn't just about the needs of the mother, but also ensuring the best circumstances possible for the baby.....which I'm not sure was the case in this situation.

[Carole]

dancinglight:

Keep doing that amazing job of yours and when the time comes, write a book about the babies you take care of. It would make a touching reading, I am sure.:)


Carole

[tikana]

dancinglight

lemme clearify something, I WAS not being rude. However, what you said wasnt exactly true. By saying what you said you pretty much eluminates 10 other reasons why people do not adopt children.

Everyone is obsessed with something. Harder it is for a woman to get pregnant, more likely that she will be a devouted mother because SHE KNOWS how hard pregnancy came to her. Years of trying, years of thinking "am I pregnant?" What is wrong with wanting something bad? Should a woman just give up? of course not! HOWEVER, she should consider alt solutions. It is the same thing as if you said to someone who has been derailed from finishing university "ohh everything is on your way, maybe it not your fate." My friend just finished university which took her close to 10 years to finish due to family complications. Since i have known her, she has been putting her family ahead of her school and her happiness. My other friend had a baby when she was 40. Her daughter is a princess in the family. She is 2 now. She came at a high price. Literally, everyone from her family and her hubby's are watching her day and night.

I am not against women who want to be moms so bad that they put years in trying or establishing their lives ahead of having children. HOWEVER, I DO have a problem with women who make reckless decisions regarding pregancies.

Tik

[dancinglight]

dancinglight:

Keep doing that amazing job of yours and when the time comes, write a book about the babies you take care of. It would make a touching reading, I am sure.:)


Carole

Thanks, Carole, you're very kind.

:39: (lol, cute smilie, isn't it?)

[Carole]

Tikana:

You have all the right of this world to want to get pregnant. Nobody can deny that right to a woman. Medical advances are helping to made that dream of so many women come true, as we know.

It would be great if every woman who battles to get pregnant made sensible decisions and acted with all the responsibility the case requires, so that she could have her wishes and hopes fulfilled without the 'collateral damage' we have seen with the sextuplets' case.

I don't have the slightest shadow of doubt that you are smart enough to make a good choice for you, when the time comes.


Carole

[Robert]

Excellent reasoning, but what if Karma played a role ? I realise that there is such a thing as free will but maybe the choice was there to make the best one could, to bring about spiritual growth...
Now here is a esoteric conundrum..!

[smilingsteph]

Where is the line drawn in a case like this? How can you go into something knowing you might have more than one, two or three children and put those lives at risk?
Well I have been a nurse a year now and I have seen 95 year old men getting hip replacements after being promised they can walk afterwards, when in all reality the surgery is so hard on the body that the patient does not have the chance to recover let alone go through a years worth of physical therapy and so forth....even promising an 80 year old that their leg will be amputated and they will get a prosthetic, forget to mention that working with a prosthetic is very demanding mentally and physically...
Lies to make a buck! Some MD's are very honest and would refuse to do a medical procedure if they could not at least be honest with an outcome.
But to take life and play a game with it like that makes me sick.
I would rather see children adopted. My grandmother was adopted at the age of six, back in a time where it was frowned upon, seen as an admission of failure, (in the early 1920's, now seen as a beautiful unselfish act) and she had a wonderful life! Thus giving life to the rest of our family. That is unselfish love right there.
Dancing I saw this most beautiful infant in the NICU and her parents wanted a baby so badly, but when she came early and had complications the parents vanished! They practically left her there! This baby they wanted so badly! Knowing she was so beautiful and thriving they left her at the hospital for case management to deal with..an angel in my eyes!
Has anyone seen the Gosslings? The TV show on Discovery Health? She just wanted one more baby, after she already had two! She knew that she was being implanted with six, all six took and they were shocked! Shocked what did they think that a few would what die? Or hope they would die? Or hope that they could carry that many infants to term?
This is a huge ethical dilemma, as stated just because it can be done, should it be done?
Good question!

[smilingsteph]

Okay to finish up I would also like to say that women do have the right to have a baby, and can do so as many times as they like...but when they decide to leave the responsibility to taxpayers it makes me sick...
I know of this girl that got pregnant on purpose, to get health insurance as she was addicted to pain medications. Her goal was to get the health insurance, get a job that would cover the insurance (as she lost her job) then to abort the baby...well she aborted all right! Did not have a job and now what is she going to do? And she has four children she is unable to care for already!
I just think that when planning a pregnancy, which if you plan to have unprotected sex you should already plan on pregnancy, that you do it with a responsible head on your shoulders..
Wow what a topic!

[Carole]

Robert:

If we analysed this case under the light of karma, free will and spiritual growth, it would be, definitely, a dilemma.;)


Carole

[Carole]

smilingstep:

Like Diogenes, I would gladly go out in daylight with the proverbial lantern and search for people for whom the word "ethics" bears some significance... just to see if I can do better than him by the end of the day and thus, not to lose the little faith in humanity I still have.:rolleyes:


Carole

[Robert]

Talking about Karma, I often wonder whether a chart can really give karmic insight about 'lessons' or debt that have to be dealt with? What about Helen Keller who had to deal with virtually impossible odds, did she really have such bad karmic debt or was she a advanced soul who incarnated to teach that adversity can be overcome? I tend to support the latter. What do you think about it?
Regards Rob.

[smilingsteph]

I have read that the nodes are karmic, and give you a karmic insight...Same with the Pars Fortunae...
Interesting question, anyother ideas?

[smilingsteph]

I believe that Helen Keller was a rare soul that was placed here to teach us all the ability of the human spirit!

I love Ben Harper, he has the most soulfoul music...he writes about the human spirit.......

then I met a man he had to walk with his hands
born into a world he could not stand
blessed with life
but cursed as a man
but he walks taller than most others can

chorus:
we must all have the will to live; you got to have the will to live

some born with more
some born with less
so dont take for granted
the life we have been blessed
it's hard to understand
that we are only a guest
and each one of us should be put to life's test

Again the chorus...

Gives me chills just thinking about the song in my mind! It really is beautiful and true....

[Carole]

smilingstep:

Yes, the Nodes talk about karmic lessons.

Robert:

Hellen Keller was undoubtedly, an evolved soul who came to pay some of her karmic debts. But instead wallowing in her misery, she fought against her physical obstacles and soared over them, becoming the great woman and fighter she was. That's what spiritually advanced souls do. A less evolved soul would have probably chosen to live a miserable life, using the perfect excuse of her disabilities, and losing the golden opportunity to evolve.

It would be better to continue this discussion about Karma on the proper forum, I think. Could it be Karmic Astrology, Spiritual realm...Or even General chat?;)


Carole

[Robert]

Thank you for sharing the song with me, it was not only inspiring but lifted my spirit at the right time too. :) It reminds me of Rudyard Kipling's poem which I find can be very applicable to Astrology:

Isn't it strange that princes and kings
and clowns that caper in sawdust rings
And ordinary folk like you and me
are builders of Eternity.

To each is given a bag of tools
an hourglass and a book of rules
And each must build, ere his time has flown
a stumbling block or a stepping stone.

Incidently, in his novel 'Kim' he describes a vedic astrologer who predicts an event which will change Kim's future completely...
Go well my friend.
:sunny: Robert

[dancinglight]

smilingsteph;

The ethical issues I see every day are chasing me out of this profession.

To me, a life is a life is a life......but the inequity starts in the nursery. You see the baby of the homeless crack and crystal meth addicted mother in the next bassinette to the professional couple's 20,000 dollar 'in vitro' baby.......and you can't help but wonder what sort of a life each is going to have.

[Robert]

smilingsteph;

The ethical issues I see every day are chasing me out of this profession.

To me, a life is a life is a life......but the inequity starts in the nursery. You see the baby of the homeless crack and crystal meth addicted mother in the next bassinette to the professional couple's 20,000 dollar 'in vitro' baby.......and you can't help but wonder what sort of a life each is going to have.

Your compassion and disillusion is understandable, it would seem that worldwide there is a shortage of health professionals who are also underpaid,overworked and in developing countries who simply do not have the infra structure to deal with impoverised communities. However the thought arises, are there enough souls incarnating with emphasized 12th house, Pisces and Neptune to serve the babies and enough souls who have the integrity and responsibility to accept the proper care of the young ones they bring into the world?

I do realise that this is maybe an issue of karmic Astrology, but yet we should grasp this nettle and assist all the parties concerned? Also it seems that not every one with 12th house emphasis are there to serve, hence not only hospitals, but prisons with the criminals and may I add inthe process of transference warders also become prey to criminality...

Neptune can create beautiful illusions in this area and many a chart that I have come across with such influence gets 'lost' to the cause. My experience
however smilingsteph, is that in your work the smallest act often brings about the greatest triumph to man/woman kind ( the unseen toiling towards healing) like the Curie's....

It would be interesting to see your chart, if not could you please indicate if you have planets in the 12th?

Do hang in there please ( I have Venus, Sun, Mercury and Uranus,conjunct ASC ! all in the 12th) Wishing you light and strength!

Anybody else come across and experience of the 12th ?

[ckr1]

Hi Robert,
I have 12th house emphasis and I suppose subject to the way you look at it I was serving Mankind,(man being the operative word... )Re Sexual Career.
Despite the nature of the job I actually did work hard and put a lot into it and my client base was approx 95% returns for a long time,no, I did not know any special tricks (Well maybe one or two!)but I did find myself giving my all to each and every one of them making sure they got value for money and sent them away feeling as if they were very special to me. I went beyond "the norm" for the profession and at times know I helped many men through difficult periods of their lives.Not exactly selfless service to others I know but along those lines maybe?
cherie
xxx


Don't look back,there is no future in it

[Robert]

Hi ckr1,
Thank you for your contribution! I disagree with your, ' not exactly selfless service to others I know but along those lines maybe?' Whichever way compassion or comfort was given like you did, is a blessing in this sometimes very selfish and cold world. Astrologer Ilse Parker stated :
'He who masters the lessons of the 12th House will be a blessing to Mankind' I believe that Universal Love ( in whatever way it is shown ) is the true meaning of this house.

My experience of 12th house charts of people that I came across (and remember it is the house of Karma but not always deliniated in its correct purpose ) is that so often it is fated that people appear or cross one's path for a reason, that only you are able to help, comfort or assist them.
Dont forget that you also gained understanding and growth as you said ' I went beyond the norm' , My vibes however tell me that there are a lot of people who care and are cheering you on and that there are many opportunities waiting for you to grasp...
Please feel welcome to contact me Wishing you love and light in abundance.
Robert.

[dancinglight]

For Robert:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s235/waddellz/charts/astro_2gw_42_l5823916065.gif


My frustration is that so much of what we react to as health care professionals are issues that are created by the choices of others, choices I cannot help but judge (seeing the repercussions in a tiny, innocent baby).

The ethical issues get more and more challenging by the year.

Does a single professional woman in her forties really need in vitro twins, with no father in sight?

When an addicted woman has a tenth baby apprehended, and I challenge the outreach workers as to why an addicted homeless woman should have the stress of a pregnancy ( ie where's the birth control???).....and they say that pregnancy is a natural mood elevator, women FEEL GOOD being pregnant.......and women like this hope that THIS TIME, they'll get to keep the baby........well, you feel like banging your head against the wall repeatedly. That is, when you're not walking the floor with an inconsolable baby going through drug withdrawal.

It just seems as though we're not getting to the source of the problem.

[smilingsteph]

Robert-
I loved that poetic sampler that you gave! I printed it out!
I dont have any planets in the 12th.
However, Aquarian energy sits in my chart highly. I sometimes think "I would sacrifice myself, my being to make this world better" Sacrifice my life, meaning time outside of work and taking that extra hour to help someone that needs it. Sometimes I even think about living like a hermit and working like crazy to help others...Uranian energy again...
I am empathetic, yet I have the ease to not get carried away with being too sympathetic, which I am sure Dancing would agree would eat us up in the hospital setting.I have one water planet in my chart! Yet I am glad with this as I would get too emotionally involved and not be able to take a look outside of my emotions to help out others. I am not saying that one should not be emotional to be a nurse, I am just saying for myself it helps...as I have been through so much horror as a child, it balances me out...
I agree with Dancing a bit when you take a look at one baby and then the next I have wondered what will become of them? I see that with adults, in their 80's. The families just drop them off during the holidays so they can go on vacation, while leaving poor old dad, confused at the hospital.
I am sure Dancing would also agree that those that go into the nursing profession do not make it if they are looking only at the gratification of money. I go to work thinking I am here to "serve" and do what I can today...if I make a difference that is where my cup gets filled. I get a paycheck, but without fufullment in my job, then the money is meaningless to me...I have never been one to worry about money, I worry about internal happiness! (maybe my sun and mercury on the IC?)
My chart attached,

[smilingsteph]

To keep back on the thread topic, what in someone's chart would indicate such a desire, a need to have a child in this fashion? Something with pluto maybe? A childhood issue that was never fufilled? Wanting control (pluto). I would love to see a parent on this thread that actually went through with this or that knows someone, so that way I can get some sense of clarity, without judgement. Maybe it is a deep personal issue, same with those that choose adoption...
Well Robert:
Getting back to your thoughts on the 12th house, I do believe a 12th house person is a deep one, and that they do wish to serve those in different facilities...not only hospitals...However, I find that those with 12th house placements are wonderful at getting to the heart of a person, great at psychological problem solving...natural psychologists!
Neptune on the MC indicates my work as a server of the public, Moon on the descendant in virgo also gives me the nuturing/serving ability in relationships with others, Ascendant in aquarius gives a humanitarian flare to my personality, Jupiter in the sixth gives me that health service flare....
As I look more into my chart and having students in the hospital I think at times I am better suited to teach...I might do that after I get too tired of the hospital. Or even as told by several members here to begin a literary career.
Robert, what do you make of it...

[smilingsteph]

Dancing-
I agree with you, but what can we do? We have to take care no matter what and do what the MD's say and keep our mouths shut, right? Well I think that our voices get lost too. Case management just wants to get the hospital reimbursed and the patient out as soon as they can as well...so these women dont get the correct help that they need. What about setting up a birth control plan before they leave? Or before they have the baby, talking about getting their tubes tied (in a tactful way of course)? People find these issues too sensitive, and I think whether it is in our realm of care or not maybe we need to be the ones to say something...
Women have a right to have children, and when medicine interferes with that then we see all sorts of issues involved, it seems though that the ethical issue gets swept under the rug, why? It is an ethical issue, people dont want to talk about it! Since you have been an active nurse longer than I, have you seen a difference in the way women are having children than in the past? What has changed? So I can grasp the issue a bit better.
Thanks

[dancinglight]

Dancing-

Women have a right to have children, and when medicine interferes with that then we see all sorts of issues involved, it seems though that the ethical issue gets swept under the rug, why? It is an ethical issue, people dont want to talk about it! Since you have been an active nurse longer than I, have you seen a difference in the way women are having children than in the past? What has changed? So I can grasp the issue a bit better.
Thanks

Well, I've gone through this earlier in the thread and got criticized for some of my opinions, so I'm going to try to leave it.

All I'll say is that we see a lot more multiple births now, because of fertility drugs and in vitro (test tube babies). While some of the treatments to GET these people pregnant are paid for privately by those having the procedure done (ie in vitro)......the cost of the care from the pregnancy forward, including all the neonatal ICU care, is covered publically, by taxpayers dollars.

And I suppose I would rather see those dollars which are earmarked for health go to people already on this planet who are hungry, cold, suffering......... rather than to support a process in which a huge amount of medical resources, time and expense go into fufilling one (comfortable, warm, well fed) couple's hopes.

[Moulin]

Hi everyone

I am not going to agree nor disagree with anyone here. I hold my own view on IVF and some people say to me "you only hold that view cos you have 3 kids"

not true.

I truly believe that IVF should not exist as an option. I have faith in the Universe to decide YES and NO.

If the Universe says NO to me then l won't have kids, i'm not meant to have them! If the Universe says YES then l will and eternally blessed l will be.

It is not man's decision on life/death, just like l will never be hooked up to a life support machine to "prolong my life" when i'm not supposed to be prolonged!!

Like l said, l feel very strongly about this and am willing to take some flak. I am compassionate toward those whom cannot have children in this lifetime but it doesn't affect my view.

Life is a blessing so go out and enjoy whatever it throws at you... ;)

[Moulin]

on their website, they state "the couple has found meeting the financial demands of their large family a constant struggle." Dont people do research before they have children? how many of them can they afford? 1st thing i would ask myself *can i actually afford any number of kids?* i am not even talking about college tuition then ask myself " how many of them can i afford?" I would not put my kids through the state's aid/welfare and etc. why use the state's aid when it can go to more needy families. I want my kid/kids to have a normal life.



Well Tikana l agree with you and no, here in the United Kingdom of Dummies most people who cannot afford to have more than one child, often have three.

I see so many insecure women on the streets depending on their kids cos their parents didn't love them when they were children themselves and so they have a kid, hoping to kid will fill the "narcissistic" void.

VERY sad. If only they realised that they would be giving up their lives 24/7 to look after their kid. Having had the kid, they then spend their lives bitching and moaning about how tough life is LOL

I have a harsh outlook "you make your bed, you lie in it" and trust me, l also am lying in my super duper double kingsize bed ;) but it's what you take from it that really makes the difference :)