View Full Version : Acts of pure cruelty
05-22-2007, 06:11 PM
So I just saw something yesterday that really got me shocked.Something so horrible that I'm finding it hard to believe a human being could do that to another person.
I know you may be curious,but I won't go into details about what I "saw"(thank God I didn't actually see anything),as it too was just too graphic and just the thought of it makes me feel sick.I should tell you it was just something a healthy mind would never even think about.It was a situation where the violent act was not a defense mechanism,it was just pure,refined torture,the kind that can make you feel sick.Also,it was just wayyy different from sadomasochism-it was not a single individual torturing another person,it was an organized form of torture.
Just so you can have an idea of the extent of what happened:it takes a LOT to make me doubt life's value,even if for only one minute.What I "saw" did not only ruin my entire day,it also made me feel like there's no point in living,with people like this walking on Earth.I even had to leave school earlier because I was feeling sick.It really did change the way I look at people.
I'm pretty sure the individuals(yes,they were more than one)who took part in such a thing are suffering from a very deep,serious form of mental illness,altough I do not pitty this people at all,only the individuals they've been so cruely hurting.This just leaves me wondering,why,what in a chart shows someone with a mind so sick and a heart so impure to do this things to another human being?I don't even understand why this people did what they were doing.I don't believe it was a group of unhappy individuals who had painful childhoods taking revenge on innocent people,believe me,it goes way beyond that.Those people are sick,I repeat.What they were doing was just cruelty taken to it's greater extent.Have you ever seen Saw?I haven't,but lots of people have told me about it.I really believe what those people were doing may resemble some of the darkest scenes from that movie,if not even worst.Those individuals simply should have never been born.
I'm particulalry interested on the experiences of real astrologers.Have you ever came across the chart of someone like this?If so,what did you find?
I'm thinking babout Mars,Saturn and Pluto-the traditional malefics and the modern one.Still,we all have this energies in our chart,and not everyone is doing this things,thank God for that.It should take some very unusual configurations with this planets to create that sort of behaviour.
I'm interested in hearing other people's opinions on this.I'm still trying to understand why this people did what they were doing..and what type of astrological configuration is required to create such an individual.
Many thanks to those who may reply.
05-22-2007, 07:37 PM
Mars conjunct Pluto, and/or in conj with Saturn ... and/or a combination of those in Scorpio and/or 8th House...
That sadomasochist energy is very Plutonian, at any rate... negatively expressed......
I have Mars-Pluto-South Node (stellium) in Scorpio/3rd conjunct my Scorpio IC... I know! :)
05-23-2007, 04:25 AM
Totally agreed on difficult placements of Mars/Saturn/Pluto. Some other things I've noticed...
a) Afflicted and poorly handled Venus - lack of values, inability to express love and compassion in a healthy manner, inability to form meaningful reationships.
b) Poorly handled powerful Scorpio placements - inclination to violence through preoccupation with death, and a general tendency towards socially unacceptable behaviors.
c) Poorly handed Chiron interaction with a combination of Mars/Saturn/Pluto - Inclination to express deep wounds in unhealthy manners.
I'm sure there are plenty more, too.
One should also realize that very difficult transits even to a "mild-mannered" natal chart can set off repressed feelings of rage and hatred as well as twist and warp the values systems of otherwise healthy individuals, if they fail to handle the transit in a constructive fashion. Transits from Chiron and Pluto can be particularly difficult, as they are long lasting and allow negative energy to fester to the point of explosion if the native continues to repress and deny a more healthy expression.
Often time people lack a healthy expression of anger and rage. These are natural emotions which need to be let out in healthy manners which do not harm oneself or others. Expression of deep anger isn't always pretty, but it's better bled off in a safe manner than left to fester, explode or even implode upon the self, which is exactly what it does if not addressed. Rage and anger is like a dry ice bomb when bottled up, the pressure just keeps building until the lid is removed or the whole bottle blows up. In some of the worst cases, the corrosive energy eats away at the very person who contains it, perverting their sense of good judgment, self-esteem, respect and compassion in an amazingly disgusting manner.
I honestly believe cruelty and violence in general would decline if more people understood how, and had healthy outlets, of releasing rage and anger. People today seem to be increasingly taught to repress rather than safely express... And we wonder why it seems all too often we hear of another workplace, shopping mall, or school getting shot up. :confused:
05-30-2007, 05:18 PM
Thank you both for your input.What I "saw" was a little bit more refined than a mad man shooting other people but I believe the theory Unukalhai stated must be right on.I never thought about the involvement of Venus here but it does make a lot of sense.
I noticed ShiningRay created a thread about Henry Landru,but it doesn't seem to be working.I will take a look it when I get the chance to.
All the best,
05-30-2007, 07:47 PM
I didn't even know the Henry Landru post I made was on the forum. When I posted it the forum went down at about that time, so I had to paste it all onto my word pad, and I can't even find the Henry Landru document now. Maybe the ghost of Landru didn't want me post it, he doesn't want us astrologers to know too much about him. :D
It was an interesting chart he had about 6 planets in Aries in the 12th house. And the police at the time of henrys killings couldn't find his murdered victims bodies, it was only later they found information that that he burned the bodies in an oven. Aries rules over burning and the 12th house, rules over disappearance and confusion, victims. Burned his victims. It was a creepy chart to look at knowing what he had done.
05-31-2007, 02:23 PM
05-31-2007, 07:54 PM
What about what I saw on TV the other day? Islamists kicking to death a 17 yr old girl who had fallen in love with a man of a different religion-they called it an "honor" killing. Could all of them be feeling repressed rage, or were they just evil? Hard to say, isn't it?:mad:
05-31-2007, 08:06 PM
What about what I saw on TV the other day? Islamists kicking to death a 17 yr old girl who had fallen in love with a man of a different religion-they called it an "honor" killing. Could all of them be feeling repressed rage, or were they just evil? Hard to say, isn't it?:mad:
I can empathize with you.What I "saw" was just too cruel to be the act of a deseperate,hurt mind.
However,I believe the theory stated still aplplies.
All the best,
06-01-2007, 06:12 PM
I agree with all the things our learned friends have said (about the disturbing event).But,above all,I would like to say-Evil has no explanation. Remember the tragedy of Oedipus? May God bless u all.
06-01-2007, 09:36 PM
I have just looked at a chart of a child abuser. The chart had a AA rating, but it is not a chart I really want to post. But what he did to the young baby is really sickening. And the thing is you can see it in the chart, obviously if I didn't know what he had done I probably wouldn't guess what he would be capable of. We all look at charts and hope the person is at least trying to be good. I don't know why evil souls are here on earth. people like him should rot in hell. Must be mentally disturbed.
For aspects he had Mars in Capricorn 5th square Sun. Mars square Neptune. (Being victimised turning into the victimiser). South Node in Cancer 11th house, Mars in 5th square Sun is aspecting the Cancer/Capricorn Nodes which is too chilling to think about with the connection to children/baby and the violent cruelty, and i assumed he was the father but I am not even going to look up the details of the story. There also Mars/Uranus and a Venus square Pluto. All the aspects are applying. And the Moon in this chart I can't work out it rules the South Node but has no real major aspects and is in Sagittarius/4th house.
But this chart definately fits under acts of pure cruelty. It gets to me more when it's children. I can't even bear to think about it. I have to switch off emotionally when I read about abuse/cruelty, or I would just not want to live in this world.
06-01-2007, 10:00 PM
I'm pretty sure the individuals(yes,they were more than one)
It never ceases to amaze me how differently people act in a group or triangular dynamic. I think it would be worthwhile, at least in this case, to look at the composite charts. Maybe as individuals nothing would have happened, but as a "team" certain laten energies could be activated.
06-02-2007, 04:28 AM
yaaa.It hurts us it pains for all our life.It's painful even to think of it.
06-02-2007, 06:31 AM
Here is the chart I was talking about yesterday. I might have over reacted last night (although he can still rot in hell). I don't see the point in not showing the chart, we want to see what kind of energy these type of people have, Psychologists want to understand what motivates killers/abusers and try to get inside their mind. Astrologers want to use the tools of Astrology to understand energy patterns and symbols to analyse the psychology of a person like their emotional style, and examine how they relate, what their early childhood was like and what drives these people to such evil acts. And in this chart it was the Mars in Capricorn 5th opposed Uranus in Cancer which kind of symbolised the violence to the child, along with the other factors in the chart. With looking at the Midpoints he has Saturn conjunct the Mars/Pluto Midpoint. I am not an expert on midpoints but this also could relate to such a cold murder.
Here is the chart and the details:
American Child Abuser, shook, hit and threw 4 month old baby against a wall causing fatal injuries.
06-02-2007, 03:23 PM
Those that commit such acts pay when they get into the penal system.Theirs become a living hell on earth usually.
For molesters when inmates learn of them they become abused in ways that can only be imagined as I once worked at a jail and was told of what happens to them once in the system.
This individual should not have been trusted with a dog let alone a child!
06-02-2007, 03:45 PM
Yaa.SagMoon//you are right.
06-02-2007, 05:27 PM
Wow, what a tool, that Azar guy.
On the morning of Nov. 27, 1988, Azar was at his home on Prides Crossing Road in Sudbury with his three young children when his 4-month-old daughter, Geneva, suffered fatal head injuries. Azar told police his daughter had been having breathing problems, and he claimed he accidentally dropped her onto a kitchen counter while he was reaching for a telephone to call his wife. Suzanne Azar called her sister, who drove over to the house and tried to revive the baby. While his sister-in-law was trying to breathe life into his daughter, David Azar allegedly said, "Oh, my God, I killed my baby." Later, Azar also said he had a "personality problem" with the baby and that "she didn't like him," according to the appeals court ruling. A pediatric radiologist who testified at Azar's 1989 trial concluded the child's injuries were consistent with "shaken baby" syndrome. During the trial, a prosecutor told jurors that David Azar's handling of the child "created a plain and strong likelihood that serious grievous bodily injury would occur."
Pluto was at his Sun/Moon midpoint, with Chiron opposed his Moon/Chiron midpoint.
His Mars/Chiron conjunction in the 5th house is interesting, as this planetary pair has been associated with violent types, and the 5th relates to children. Working with a Sunrise chart for the day of the event, Implicating the Mars/Chiron cycle would be the tight Mars/Chiron square, from 5Ari (Mars in it's home) to 5Can (Chiron in the sign of nurturing). Sun and Venus were in semisextile from 5Sag to 5Sco, thus all four forming an aspect pattern of 12th harmonic (30-degree multiple) aspects. The midpoint of Mars/Chiron was 20Tau, Sun/Venus midpoint was 20Sco. Azar's IC/MC axis run along this line, with his IC at 20Sco and MC at 20Tau, So the whole configuration is woven into his IC/MC axis.
The Moon at the time of Sunrise was only 5arcmin from opposing his Chiron, and Mars was only 12arcmin from a quintile to his Chiron. Uranus was tight on his 5th house Koch cusp, and in near exact (1arcmin) septile to his Saturn, ruler of his Mars/Chiron conjunction.
Edit to add:
Also, Geneva's birth data:
If I understand the Italian page properly, that'd be August 3rd 1988 @ 09:09 EST, Boston, MA
This puts her Pluto at his Pluto/Chiron midpoint, and her Chiron at his Moon/Mars (aggressive nurturing?) midpoint. This also puts his Chiron on her Mars/Pluto midpoint.
Also really striking is how her natal Mars/Chiron midpoint falls on his MC. Mars went Retrograde shortly after her birth, then went direct again prior to Nov27. Her natal MA/CH is 20Tau, and MA/CH on Nov27 was also 20Tau. The difference between natal and Nov27 transiting MA/CH is a mere 15 arcmin!
06-02-2007, 06:57 PM
Thanks for the details Unikalhai, I looked on the web for more information myself but couldn't find any.
Interesting midpoints, the Chiron Mars/Moon midpoint for violent parent/nurturing is very telling. And I didn't know the Mars/Chiron aspect was associated with violent types, his masculinity must be pretty wounded to attack a defenceless child. He is no man. In one of my Astrology books the interpretation for Mars/Chiron when negatively expressed is compulsive disorders, I don't really know what it means but probably he had no control on his actions, so your probably right on the Mars/Chiron for Violence. On an Astrology course I was doing, my Astrology Teacher told me to think of Chiron as similar to Pluto but I never finished the whole course so I am always stuck when it comes to interpreting chiron.
I was looking at his Mars/Uranus Midpoint which Neptune conjuncts and I was wondering if he was drunk or on drugs at the time. Or maybe he is just mentally disturbed. The violent shaking - Mars in Capricorn 5th (violent father) opposed Uranus in Cancer for the baby he shook. I will go and have a look at the baby's chart to see what kind of information the chart has for the father figure in the babys life. I will check out the synastry chart, I am not sure about checking the Composite chart but I will look anyway.
06-02-2007, 08:45 PM
Here are some of the Midpoint readings for David Adzar.
+ enthusiastic. individualistic. intuits quickly. ingenious. unique. magnetic.
Interesting partnership. Mutual stimulation. Adventures with each other. To live an exciting life. Days or years with eventful hours. Surprise among the public about a person. One partner surprises the other.
- emotionally erractic. Shocking,. Disruptive. Tensions with eachother. One partner upsets the other. Wanderlust undermines unity.
+ accommodating. adaptable. skilled at converting and transforming. spontaneous. charming. attractive. even-tempered. conciliatory. agreeable. likes variation and change. emotionally ardent. refined. enjoys eating. highly aesthetically-conscious. capable at artistic development.
Enjoyable transformation. Increasing sympathy or for a person. Development of affection. Personal gifts. Changes due to love of a man. Emotional transformation. Pleasure due to the husband's changes. Good digestion. Harmonious physical development. Restoration of physical balance due to nutrition. Harmonious course of the day. Years of developing love.
- Not always trustworthy. [Sometimes abusive in love or partnership]
+ enjoys contact with others. adapts. skilled at developing. spontanteous. capable at transforming. changes things. likes variety.
Development in relationship to the mother or wife. Transition in the relationship to a woman. Change of female contacts. Emotional transformation due to contacts. Evolution of public contacts. New manner of relating to the public. Development of a nation and its relations. Hour of increasing encounters. Brain circuits.
- over emotional, moody, transitory, unreliable.
+ alternates between activity and inactivity. capable of hard or difficult work. conscientious. makes improvements systematically. focused. works slowly. suited for manual labor. pragmatic.
Developments in a job requiring patience and persistence. Assignment dealing with current problems. Work plan resolving problems. Readjustments in connection with departures.
- contary, stubborn stagnant, inconsiderate. Potentially Brutal.
Slow development of work. Difficult readjustment at work. Problamitc work plan. To contribute to difficulties in relation to change. Mistreatment, Gradual or separation from a job. To end current work. Readjustments due to death.
+ deals with medical issues. cautious. skeptical. preoccupied with metaphysical factors or issues.
Dissolution of problems. Consideration of both material and non-material aspects of bodies or objects. Persistence of a devitalized person. Medical issues.
-Devitalized. devitalized. sickly. unstable. insecure. distrustful. negative in outlook. unimaginative. despondent. easily discouraged. ambiguous. unclear. insincere. underhanded. deceitful. false.
Disillusionment over the perseverance of a man. Denial of difficulties. Delays due to ambiguity. Sacrifices due to separation from a man. Continual uncertainty. Difficulties due to deceit. Physical illness. Unpleasant times. Days of contradictions. Years of medical problems. Instability in later years.
+ instinctive. private. obscure. works with prophecies. interested in metaphysical factors. daydreams. future-oriented. interested in aquatic sports.
To contribute to relaxation of tensions. Surprising secret activities. Work with other worlds or realities. Work with obscure technology. Work on future reforms. Activities in the future.
- secretive. contrary. worrisome. apprehensive. weak-willed. lacking in energy. gets little accomplished. idle. passive. listless. deluded. unrealistic. cunning. treacherous. performs faulty work.
Sudden instability due to an action. Unexpected mistake. Surprising weakness of will. Upset over indecision or vacillation. Work involving crises. Sudden infection. Unconscious of the proceedings of an accident. Outbreak of a storm.
Here is baby Geneva's chart:
The Father: Aspects what possibly symbolises him.
Sun in Leo Conjunct Mercury square Pluto. Trines Mars in Aries.
Saturn Retrograde in Sagittarius conjunct Uranus and both planets opposed venus in Gemini. Saturn R/Uranus opposed Chiron in Cancer.
Geneva has an "exact" Mars/Neptune aspect, being a victim. Both have this aspect in their natal chart, it is also in the composite chart And there is a link of the Mars/Neptune aspect in the in the synastry chart involving his nodes. The Mars/Neptune aspect plays a role in all the charts. Mars is also inconjunct Pluto in Geneva's chart.
Here is the synastry chart between David Azar and Baby Geneva.
David's Sun square Geneva's Neptune
David's Sun opposed Geneva's Mars
David's Moon Conjunct Geneva's Uranus
David's Moon Conjunct Geneva's Saturn
David's Mars Square Geneva's Moon
David's Saturn Conjunct Geneva's Pluto
David's Saturn Square Geneva's Mercury
David's Saturn Square Geneva's Sun
David's Uranus square Geneava's Moon
David's Neptune opposed Geneva's Moon
Pluto Squares her unaspected Jupiter
David's Nodes on Geneva's Neptune square to her Mars.
Here is the composte between father and baby.
Mars square Neptune.
Mars sqaure Saturn.
Venus Square Saturn.
06-02-2007, 09:01 PM
And I didn't know the Mars/Chiron aspect was associated with violent types, his masculinity must be pretty wounded to attack a defenceless child. He is no man.
I forget the article I had read on it, but apparently it's a factor in a number of charts of violent people. I've paid attention to it for a while and came to agree with the conclusion. If I had more data and samples to share I would, but I can't say I've focused on it enough to attempt to collect said data.
He sure isnt!
What happens with Mars/Chiron is that the native faces his issues through his aggressive tendencies, and through reckoning with his aggression faces the chironic wound. It doesn't have to always play out as excessive violence, but sometimes it does.
In one of my Astrology books the interpretation for Mars/Chiron when negatively expressed is compulsive disorders, I don't really know what it means but probably he had no control on his actions, so your probably right on the Mars/Chiron for Violence.
Interesting on compulsive disorders. I think maybe the word impulsive might better describe the situation, as Mars has a tendency to act first and ask questions and/or think of logic later!
On an Astrology course I was doing, my Astrology Teacher told me to think of Chiron as similar to Pluto but I never finished the whole course so I am always stuck when it comes to interpreting chiron.
I'd have to agree; and I find that Chiron/Pluto are very closely related, not that they are the same, but that they reinforce eachothers nature and work as a team.
I haven't quite reconciled the pair enough to my own satisfaction, but what I'm noticing so far is that Pluto tends to come in with the sledgehammer and really turn things upside down, "cleaning the slate" and getting things ready for a rebirth after the old has been stripped and the core matter is all that remains. That's when Chiron comes in; His job seems to be to guide us to understand why Pluto broke things down and left us "bleeding in a ditch" (so to speak) and then to heal from that experience while building new awareness (Uranus) and structures (Saturn) [note that Chiron's orbit connects Saturn/Uranus] that better express our real spiritual being. Of course, Chiron is alot more than this, but in terms of my (limted) understanding of the Chiron/Pluto relationship, this seems to fit.
One should also note the astronomical similarities... Both objects are hard to define, and have been heavily argued as to what they really are. Some say Chiron is an asteroid, some a comet, some a displaced Kupier Belt Object, some say it's a chunk of cosmic rock that flew by and got trapped by Saturn/Uranus in recent times, the list seems to go on. Pluto has of course been the big argument lately getting renamed a dwarf, which is a deceptive word in and of itself! Moreover, they both dip in and out of orbits of major planets, both have a highly elliptical orbit resulting in a alot more time in some signs than others, and both are close enough to be "on" the ecliptic but far enough away to commonly be "out of bounds" because of their tilt relative to the ecliptic. There is little doubt in a physical/orbital sense they are very similar.
I was looking at his Mars/Uranus Midpoint which Neptune conjuncts and I was wondering if he was drunk or on drugs at the time. Or maybe he is just mentally disturbed.
Great observation! One should realize the two usually go hand in hand, as mental disturbances often push people to drugs to escape. Neptune there could indicate some sort of roadblock (self-deception or drugs likely) inhibited his ability to enact personal transformations and realizations (Mars/Uranus)... On a deeper mental/spiritual level that could be very frustrating! Also, Chiron forms a near-perfect (4arcmin) square to the Mars/Uranus midpoint, solidifying the Mars/Chiron/Uranus linkage aside from the opposition to the conjunction.
Mars in Capricorn 5th (violent father)
Great point. Didn't even think of that.
I will go and have a look at the baby's chart to see what kind of information the chart has for the father figure in the babys life.
Right on, interested to hear what you find! :)
I will check out the synastry chart, I am not sure about checking the Composite chart but I will look anyway.
You might find a time/space midpoint (Davidson) to be more telling, but certainly the synastry chart is going to be most telling :)
Another interesting thing, looking at his Nov 27th solar arc chart, Chiron had directed very close (13arcmin) to his descendant, while Pluto had directed to with 7arcseconds of cardinal point, 29Lib59'53. Both angles and cardinal points allow planets to express themselves out in the open alot easier, putting them on stage in a sense.
06-02-2007, 10:44 PM
Great explanation Unukalhali. I will have to buy a good midpoint book to learn how to apply the midpoints to charts, as I don't know which Midpoints should be the most significant in the chart. I like the way you use the midpoints and look at all the planets hitting a midpoint in the chart :) . I will have to practice some more, as I find them useful when adding them to the chart, always keeping in mind the main themes in the natal chart with aspects/placements/signs etc.
With Mars in the 5th square Neptune he may have addiction problems/or escapists tendencies. Mars/Uranus accidents through carelessness. We don't know the full details of what happened so it is hard to judge. But yes like you said mental disturbances can often push people to drugs/drinks. There is a very high possibility with his chart that he could have been abused/or from a violent background himself. I don't have sympathy for him, but usually abusive patterns run through the family.
06-03-2007, 01:51 PM
This thread seemed to have evolced pretty much while I was away;thanks Shining Ray and Unukalhai for the work done with the chart of Azar,I still need to look a little bit more about it and read your post with more atention.
I simply can't understand why some people can be so refinely cruel.My triple Aries placements can understand the concept of raw agression,getting ennerved with something and reacting according to the situation.What I cannot understand is the reason how some people are capable of so refined,deliberate acts of torture.Some of this acts seem to possess quite a Venusian tone,since the people involved practice their actions in such a refined way.
What inspired this thread was a form of refined,organized torture that involved children(teenagers in the case),carried on by a group of well organized individuals.Indenpendently of the way they were doing it,what they were doing was a crime(and a horrible thing,I'm even afraid to think about it),but honestly,they had other ways(less horryfying ways)of doing what they were doing.It confuses me,why and how this people chosed to do what they did in the way they were doing it.
Once again,I should stress that,just like that Azar guy,I doubt this were people who had rough childhoods and are now taking out their frustrations on innoccent souls.There's something more to this,something fundamentaly wrong with these people souls.I'm even afraid to look at the charts of people like this because because every human being possess the same basic planetary energies as this monsters,btu I refuse to categorize this people as being human beings.They are monsters,plain and simple.
06-04-2007, 09:50 AM
Quote Lissa: Once again,I should stress that,just like that Azar guy,I doubt this were people who had rough childhoods and are now taking out their frustrations on innoccent souls.There's something more to this,something fundamentaly wrong with these people souls.I'm even afraid to look at the charts of people like this because because every human being possess the same basic planetary energies as this monsters,btu I refuse to categorize this people as being human beings.They are monsters,plain and simple.
I agree Lissa, they are just evil souls and other human beings possess similar charts and wouldn't even dream of committing such cruelty on anyone. A lot of people can go through rough childhoods and not be left mentally disturbed, and wanting to make other people suffer for their pain. I was looking at another chart yesterday of a child killer,he killed a 12 year old girl called polly Klass, he had a stellium of planets in Cancer in the 8th house. He is now in prison awaiting death row. He even had his own web page, which he personally writes on :rolleyes: nothing shocks me now. But I was looking at his chart and wondering what he was here to learn this lifetime. I was thinking if he was not meant to kill/abuse anyone in this lifetime than surely he has pretty much messed up, his life path.
In his chart he had North Node in Capricorn in the 2nd house. Maybe he had to let go of his destructive emotions, the killer instinct even (SN Cancer 8th) maybe to do something productive in his life like learn some values (like the value of a human life). He was good at Art and he made wooden art and did some drawings, too bad he didn't focus on his art and learn to find some value in expressing himself in this way. The ruler of the North Node was in the 12th house Scorpio. Who knows with Saturn ruler of North Node in 12th maybe part of his karma is meant to played out in prison, or maybe he has to learn about serving the whole in some way, or learn deep spiritual values. I suppose we all have our own evolutionary lessons to learn, even killers.
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