Ruthlessness

[Yoi]

So what things in a chart denote ruthlessness?

The most obvious one is any Mars-Pluto aspect.

I was looking at Sue Tomkin's book and she mentions something I never thought of as ruthless before - a strong emphasis on Aquarius-Scorpio fixed square.

Carter says there may be a dislike of the human race. Certainly, the Aquarius-Scorpio person tends to be cynical about people's motives and is usually passionate about the few

This fixed combination will often produce the strongest ideas and feelings and very deepest convictions...It can also be a ruthless, cold and revolutionary combination. It is to be found in the individual who wants to transform the world (or at least a little patch of it), whether for good or ill.

Often the Scorpio-Aquarius person will not shrink from anything.

What other things do people think denote ruthlessness?

[Lissa]

I completely agree with you that a emphasis on Mars/Pluto or any connection between the two planets would do it.

I also never heard of the Scorpio-Aquarius thing...although it makes a certain sense.Aquarius are often known for emotional detachment,and Scorpios can be absolutely cruel when they're hurt...although I think that this signs must be really afflicted or bad positioned to lose that human touch,so to speak.

I feel like Aries and Capricorn should also be thrown in the mix,being the other planets ruled by Mars/Saturn.Although they lack the stubborness of the fixed signs,they have the initiative of the cardinal signs.Once again,I think this signs must be really afflicted to create such a personality trait.I'm thinking about Mars/Pluto afflicting each other,with a little Uranus in the mix for further individualism,and an afflicted Saturn in the7th/11th(frustration in personal relationships,a feeling of being limited by others).I know all the planets contribute for our traits but I think the Moon has some relevance here too,since the Moon rules over emotions,and ruthlessness denotes a total lack of consideration for others feelings.The Moon in signs such as Aries,Leo or Capricorn has a tendency for egocentrism and seeing only their side of the story,although the Cappy Moon surely has a very different flavour from the two Fire Moons...

[AquarianEssence]

2 people have behaved toward me in a very unfair and ruthless way. One has Asc, Jupiter Sun in Aq. opposite Desc-Pluto in Leo square Scorpio Moon tight. Venus who rules the empty quarter is Rx, Aq in the 12, not a lot of feeling except where it serves self. The other one has Asc, Saturn in Scorpio square Jupiter and Pluto at the MC. I agree, Mars, Pluto or Scorpio will probably be involved somewhere. Aquarius does add the detachment necessary but the actual ruthlessness is a Scorpio quality.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[mwright]

aquarius could be very ruthless, with saturn as its classical ruler. saturn is lack, and ruthlessness is lack of compassion.

aquarius/saturn can lack compassion if it sees everyone as deserving equal opportunity, but also needing to take absolutely equal responsibility. aquarius/saturn may forget that the playing field is not always even.

aquarius/saturn can also be arrogant, narrow-minded, slow-witted, controlling, calculating, ambitious, etc... any of these traits could make it difficult to connect with others.

cruelty suggests an actual desire to harm, or see harm come to others (scorpio/mars/pluto).

ruthlessness seems like an inability to make the emotional connection that will prevent you from doing harm if you think you're right (aquarius/saturn).

[kamo]

Hello all. Very interesting subject. Cruelty, sadism are traits which I've been trying to study from an astro pov. I would think Venus or the moon are afflicted by Saturn or a trans-saturnian planet and most planets are in the left hemisphere (the ego side). We could try to study the charts of a few politicians like Rove, Rumsfeld, Olmert, Wolfowitz who apparently don't give a fig about other people's suffering as long as they try to reach their goals.

As a Scorpio with Pluto square Sun I am very compassionate and peace loving but when attacked I fight to the bitter end.

[Neptune Rising]

I have Saturn/Cancer in 7th square Pluto/Libra on the MC.
Pluto on MC also sextiles Ascendent in Sagitarious

I wouldn't say I'm ruthless (my Moon and Jupiter in Pisces in the 3rd house maybe tempers this and gives me empathy) but I can be a bit of a tyrant when I want something done. If, say, I see something wrong somewhere, I will put all my power into correcting it until it is correct, so in that way I'm ruthless.

I've had occasions where I've been owed money from an organisation. Some friends would suggest, just give up! But I persist from every possible angle to make sure I get it back.

Maybe if my Moon was in a different place I would be quite ruthless, but I think of others usually before myself and the effect I would have on them.

Neptune

[Pisceanfool]

Hello all,

Well my bowl rim is Pluto/Mars and while i would not say i am very ruthless i can be. The opposition also squares my Auqa Asc... i guess i should be more ruthless but my pisces stellium helps i suppose. It defintly makes me want to reform things, since there seems to be something fundimentally wrong with this world...

The harsh pluto mars aspects especially opposition seem to create a conlict between the spiritual will(pluto) and the personal desires(mars) and this really ***** for my evolution personally. It forces me to use my abilities for either a humanitarian motive or my own personal desries as well. Good thing i dont even have to think about that one!

[Neptune Rising]

It defintly makes me want to reform things, since there seems to be something fundimentally wrong with this world...


I agree! Maybe these inner conflicts lead us to find inner resolutions that can lead in small steps to gradually changing the wrongness in the world.

Ruthlessness for a good cause! :D

Neptune

[Yoi]

Good conversation going on here.

I don't think ruthlessness necessarily denotes an enjoyment of cruelty. I think that's an entirely different thread - sadism. Ruthlessness as I see it is the willingness to do anything to achieve a goal. You don't necessarily mean to be cruel or enjoy being cruel, but if someone is in the way of the goal, then hey, you gotta do what you gotta do. I think that is ruthlessness. People have mentioned lots of different combinations for ruthlessness and I think the nature of the ruthlessness depends on the specific combination.

Mars/Pluto I see as simple "I must survive" and "I must win". There is a strong will (Pluto) to be/to do (Mars).

Aquarius/Scorpio. Scorpio is fixed water and brings great emotional intensity. Aquarius is fixed air and brings great mental intensity. Both are immovable (being fixed) though they may choose to move themselves. Aquarius is not about self but about ideals, not religion or philosophy (that's Sagittarius) but secular ideals about groups of people and their happiness. Which is why the Sun is in Detriment in Aquarius. Being fixed it holds these ideals strongly. Combined with the emotional intensity and will of Scorpio you have very intense feelings about the ideals.

Now Aquarius I think is very judgemental, which is not surprising as Saturn is the traditional ruler and Saturn is the Judge. It judges people, especially groups of people according to its strongly held ideals. Aquarius' judgement is not necessarily bad. Aquarius is logic after all and so its judgement is based on "why on earth are these people behaving so stupidly?" "Stupid people stupid, stupid, stupid people." and "These people are all complete and total morons who can't think logically." If it was just Aquarius they'd probably shrug it off. However Scorpio takes things personally and emotionally and is very unforgiving.

Besides intense cynicism developing, I don't think Aquarius/Scorpio will actually do anything (they are both fixed) unless there is something else involved.

Aries/Capricorn the other Mars/Saturn combination I think is more selfish ruthlessness ie. the advancement of the self. Aries and Capricorn being cardinal is probably a lot more visible in their ruthlessness than Scorpio/Aquarius. Also, come on, *Aries*.

[Pisceanfool]

Nice post Yoi,

Describes me pretty **** well... my thinking at least. I do, however have jupiter as probably the strongest planet in my chart and final dipositor. What i want to do with my life is about advancment of more then self.

[Yoi]

I found this description of one Aquarius/Scorpio combination (Scorpio Sun, Aquarius Moon):

http://www.astrology-numerology.com/sun-moon8.html

The combination of your Sun sign and your Moon sign may create a rather quiet exterior, but inwardly there is a great deal of mental pressure and a constant flow of undercurrents. You often seem to be absorbed in another sphere of existence and above being actively involved in mundane activities surrounding you. This combination blends the emotional force, determination and will power of Scorpio, with the originality, ingenuity and friendliness of Aquarius. You have a strong will and deeply fixed attitudes and ideas. Keen judgment of human nature and the ability to sense the motives of others gives you a very good knack for handling people.

But you can be a tough boss, for once you lose respect for someone's ability to think and reason, you have little use for them in any way. Never showing this outwardly, you can always be polite and civil, while feeling nothing but scorn and disgust. You don't believe in discriminating against anyone, so you hide the intolerance you can not help but feel. You have a need for adulation, but unless you feel that you deserve it, you resent people that flatter and compliment you. You have the ability to influence people and as you progress up the ladder, you are apt to become surrounded by "yes men", for whom you can hold no respect. Shallowness or superficiality completely throw you off. You have a profound mind that is broad and tolerant (at least in theory), and quite creative.

Pride is strongly marked in your nature, and you set great store by intellectual and artistic accomplishment. There is a depth to your nature and your emotions that few can understand. You're outstanding at observation, at analysis, at imagining and creating.

And Aries Sun Capricorn Moon:

The combination of your Sun sign and your Moon sign blend the attributes of the Ram (Aries) and the Goat (Capricorn), equipping you well for the task of battering and climbing. This position gives natural talents for managing and directing as the driving force of Aries is tempered with the persistence and deliberate judgment of Capricorn. You have an inner drive for success that is rarely equaled. There are also very definite ideas about where you are going and how you are going to get there; and you're not one to let anything stand in your way. In many ways you are an opportunist who knows how to judge people, spot problem people, and problem situations, before they get the upper hand.

You may not get to your goals as quickly as many fellow Aries, since avoiding the pitfalls and waiting for the chance that is really what you want. This is a strength that other Aries may not possess. Nonetheless, your drive is always hard, and fast, compared to normal standards. Though you are full of energy and determination, and you seem to waste very little of these on nonproductive activities. You seem to know how to direct your efforts to get what you want. Being a very worldly person, fame and recognition are your top priorities or at least very near the top. You will give up a lot in a personal sense for success. You may make a good spouse, but marriage is not likely to be all important in your life, but rather an event. The career may be foolishly placed ahead of family. Your intellect is not unsound, but abstract knowledge or knowledge for its own sake, holds little appeal to you. Common sense seems much more valuable so far as you are concerned.

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Ok I am very interested in the outcome of this thread and have a vested interest in it as my strong Scorpio Stellium of Sun, Asc, Merc, Venus and Pluto is all co-ruled by Mars in Aqua, with my Mars squaring my Sun exactly.

So. Ruthlessness? What does that mean? Some say cruelty, but as others have, I would dismiss that as sadism. Some say it is a lack of compassion, but I think this is an ambiguous term. It is not a cruel infliction or a positive of cruelty. It is not immoral, it is amoral. If there is a goal, ruthlessness will achieve it. Whether that goal is good or bad in itself is determined by other factors.

I do not think I am ruthless but I often feel as if the people I've left behind in life have felt abandoned by me. This thread doesn't help that feeling. I try my best to do what is best for the group. Who knows.

Ruthlessness is the ability to be detached and set aside all personal ties for one believes in. That can be good or bad depending upon the validity of the belief, but who can judge that belief? We can only try and look at people's motives, judging is difficult, but is something we must try, for everyone sets some sort of guideline for moral conduct.

Strangely, if ruthlessness is seen as Saturnian, I hardly ever see strong Libras having this quality, and this is the sign of Saturn's exaltation. Anyone with Saturn in Libra care to comment?

[Pisceanfool]

I would not say Libra would be ruthless since they theoretically see both sides and keep things balenced. The Saturnian connontation would be more Capricornian in my opinion. A strong Saturn gives someone the drive to achieve something even if that means a sacrifice of some kind. My sis has Saturn in Libra with a strong connection to mercury in Gemini, she is also a Gemini and i don't find her very ruthless at all... although she has little patience for incompetence(Capricorn, Scorpio in some cases). If you want to see a chart of somone with some serious disipline here ya go. (http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=ix6file8jpRMe-u1163876440&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=9936590&nho2=860513&btyp=2&mth=gw&sday=3&smon=5&syr=2007&hsy=0&zod=&orbp=&rs=0&add=20&add=22&add=13&node=-Yn&asp=1&fix=1&ast=)

[mwright]

sundance,

your squares from mars are not necessarily a problem as much as a motivation. they give you more drive than you would have without them.

with that particular scorpio stellium, you probably have the trine from jupiter in pisces, which to me is stronger than mars in aquarius. that would take some of the edge off the mars square, and give you a sense of the greater good.

ruthlessness is a dysfunction caused by saturn afflicting another planet. saturn (especially, being exalted in libra) is not an affliction, and would not cause a libra to be ruthless.

i chose saturn for "ruthlessness" because saturn causes lack and restriction. many words have similar meanings, and can be generalized with astrological terms. if that's the case, words that start with "in-" or "un-", or end in "-less" could point to a saturn affliction:

ruthless (saturn/neptune?, saturn/moon)
uncaring, insensitive, unfeeling (saturn/moon)
heartless (saturn/sun)
inhumane (saturn/uranus, saturn/any planet in aquarius)
etc...

btw, i have saturn conjuct mars in the sixth - maybe, a bit of a workaholic myself.

[Lissa]

This thread evolved a lot while I was away.Some of the things that were said made me think about myself..The Aries-Capricorn square is a big one for me.Altough I don't have and Aries Sun/Cap Moon I do have an Aries Moon/Cappy rising,which has some similarities I believe,altough the Moon is detrimental in Capricorn,which makes it quite different,and I have the Saturn in Aquarius that was also mentioned,falling in my1st house.I do not consider myself ruthless...altough I know I can be very selfish when I want to,and I know I usually am.Plus,I have Mercury and Venus in Aries,and the Uranus/Neptune/North Node in Capricorn as most of my friends do.Sundance Kid,I can really empathize with you when you talk about the people you left behind...In the past,I had situations where I totally disappeared out of some people's lives without even giving them a warning.I have to say one of the most proeminet characteristics of my Pisces Sun is a strong escapist ability,altough I don't like to admit it.Still,karma has made me pay for that,and still is.I like to do things my own way,even though I easily adapt to circumnstances.When everything's running smoothly and my friends are happy I can act pretty self-centered and fight and like to make sure my opinion is heard but when a friend is down,believe me,I'm the first one to lead a helping hand.Honestly,I prefer to be like this than the other way around.

We can all be ruthless sometimes.Still,some people are consistently ruthless,to the point that it gets almost impossible for others to get along with them.Like I said,we all have our moments but I still believe ruthlessness as a personality trait would be indicated by an afflicted Mars,Saturn and Pluto.

[Lissa]

By the way,Pisceanfool,may I ask who's chart is that?

[AquarianEssence]

Many, many times I have seen different astrologers attribute the word "ruthlessness to Pluto". That doesn't have to be a bad thing. Pluto is determined and won't tollerate interference in carring out his duties. Sometimes ruthlessness is necessary in order to assure the cycle of life continues. My dictionary says it means, "without ruth, pity or sorrow. Now Ruth means companion or friend. When one carries out his duty he must not pity, otherwise he will take on the karma of the person he pities. One can have compassion without pity or being sorry you have to do what is necessary. If I was "ruthful" I would have a very hard time disciplining my child or allowing my loved one to die a peaceful death and release them. Pluto is the lord of death and all that must end in order to have a fresh start. If he lacked ruthlessness one would continue to go on indefinately in a situation that has become stagnant or counterproductive. When that Pluto energy is misused the negative form of ruthlessness manifests. Then he is without a friend and pity for good cause, for he shows no mercy and none will be shown to him.

[Pisceanfool]

By the way,Pisceanfool,may I ask who's chart is that?

My bad, I should of made it more clear that's my sister's chart. She had staight A's her whole life and graduated Magna Cum Laude(SP?) from CU Boulder. She is going to be sucsessful, i think it's pretty obvious with a 10th house stellium and how far she has come already. She studied constantly in school and is still a really cool person who even parties!:38: Who says pot makes you a loser? Depends on the person if you ask me. Sorry getting off topic... shes just awesome! Had to brag.

I would say ruthlessness in general is based mostly off of Scorpio/Capricorn and thier respective rulers, and well... Aries and Mars can too. Not saying that it is always a bad thing when combined with compassion and empathy.

[Natasha]

Pluto in a tight aspect to a luminary will highten survival at all costs instinct.
If it feels threatened it may pull out all stops to survive.
It may see many issues even day to day issues as a threat to its survival
And thus can act in a ruthless way to others
It depends on the rest of the chart & the personality as to how quickly it pulls out the ruthless survival card.
In a watery piscean mutable chart with some earth and aquarius plus a few trines it may not be quick to attack
but in fiery and airy chart low on earth with a lot of squares it may go quickly in survival mode