Another mystery chart

[wilsontc]

To all,

Here is a chart that I found interesting and played around with posting, but with all the interest, I finally have decided to post it (in case you haven't guessed! ;) ). Let me know your thoughts about this person, the character, their motivations, situation, etc. using any and all astrological techniques. All responses are encouraged, so that we get as many different chart analysis methods as possible. This is a learning experience, where we astrologers get to see how other astrologers look at astrology and use their techniques to get to an answer. Share and learn! :)

http://www.geocities.com/wilsontctc/chart/exbirthcharts/chart.gif

If people need birth data, let me know...I have not been shy about asking for birth info and I want to extend the same courtesy to others. Let the guessing begin! :)

Charting mysteriously,

Tim

[Lissa]

Wow,so many mystery charts we have now on this forum:D .I have to say I absolutely LOVE this sort of things so I'm trying my best to keep up with all of them.

I have to say this chart looks very interesting.There are lots of planets in Sagitarius and in the9th,putting a lot of emphasis on travelling,philosophy and learning.I think this person probably had a busy life..someone who never stayed in the same place for too long,even if only on a mental level.The Sagitarius stellium is disposed by Jupiter and the8th house Jupiter is disposed by Venus,so the person probably had a very charming personality,even magnetic.With Jupiter in the8th,I think the person probably gained money through others.I have the feeling the person didn't have problems with money,altough I think the financial life was unstable and full of ups and downs(ruler of the2nd in out of sign conjunction with Uranus)...yet,I think the downs never got so low that the person couldn't take them.The Ascendant is disposed by Uranus and Uranus is in Scorpio;a magnetic personality.Venus squares the Ascendant too so physicall appearance was a very important matter to the person.I think the person could easily get what he/she wanted:the type of"I know what I want and I know how to get it"..although I think the person wasn't eaxcly that straigthforward with their desires.Pluto and Neptune are both Retrograde in the4th(inner world),and they make very few connections to the Sagitarius stellium.I think the person kept lots of secrets;seems like the type of person who doesn't enjoy whinning and complaining.

Err,a little question...which one is the North Node glyph?:o

Also,could you please give us the person gender?It would make my life much easier...:p

Well like I've said many times on this forum before,I'm only a beginer and I have the feeling I said completly crazy things:p .Hope this post atracts more people to this thread!

All the best
Lissa

[wilsontc]

Lissa,

You asked:
...could you please give us the person gender?

That I will keep to myself. I've always been interested in the idea that the chart by itself has no gender. So, in the interest of keeping things mysterious, I will leave this an asexual chart! ;)

Asexually,

Tim

[wilsontc]

Lissa,

Thanks for stepping up and giving your thoughts. To others on this site, I know there are a few other charts out there but I am hoping to get some more thoughts from all the talented astrologers out there. So when you are finished with guessing Bob's and Draco's charts, come on down! I'll be waiting! ;)

Waiting for the astrologers,

Tim

[Shining Ray]

This is a tough chart with all those conjunctions (19 if I counted right) The Sun, Moon, Chart ruler, and even the ruler's of the nodes are in the 9th house and tightly conjunct each other, there is a lot of Sagittarian emphasis too. And Saturn and Uranus in the middle of the stellium makes this chart hard to work out. There is only one opposition and one square. I will have a look later and give some thoughts on the chart. Although I will probably be way off. :D

[wilsontc]

Ray,

Thanks for giving it a try! I never have been that good at guessing charts because I think a person has a LOT of choices in life and trying to find out which ones they DID take from a chart is very challenging. But I have found out that in looking over charts, even if I didn't get the "right" answer, I learned a LOT about the person and felt a little closer to them (which may be why I am so defensive when I find out a person turns out to be someone I would rather run away from! ;) ).

Gratefully,

Tim

[Claire19]

With all that 9th house stuff, Sag planets, chart ruling by Uranus, can be involved in humanitarian aid, legal matters, philosophies and universal truths. With the Moon ruling the 6th of everyday work and needs can be involved with needy children.. My guess is this person would be ideally suited to Community Aid Abroad type of thing. Particularly involvement with government projects and perhaps education and through a church organisation.

As you say there are all sorts of possibilities and one cannot tell the gender by the birth chart which is interesting. Whatever, this person is very interested in travel, religions and philosphies, higher truths, at the very least.

[Shining Ray]

The Mystery Chart.

Aquarius Ascendant - This person has a cool but friendly approach. A persons intellect and social or political viewpoint is what appears to interest this person.

Sun in Sagittarius this persons purpose is to further discover about the meaning of life through philosophy, travel, law, religion, sports, or further education. This person needs to know they are ultimately going somewhere. This person being born around the new moon means they are setting about doing something new or in a new way. There could be a feeling with this person of being inhibited by old habits and attitudes , of the family, or maybe of something in the past. There is a few chart indications leading me to think this person has too much of a hold on emotional connections, maybe the family in some way. The Sun Conjuncts Mercury so the powers of reason may be higher than average. But this can inline a person to worry as they may try to work everything out in their head. There is a strong resilient nature (Sun/Mars) and this person needs to find a worthwhile cause to promote there is a lot of drive and energy in this person, aimed towards 9th house pursuits. This person will go through certain adventures in life of the mind or the body or probably both. Maybe this is a person who wants to expose it’s personal lies, exaggerations, indiscretions or half truths. There is also a desire to help others understand their own truth, to expose their own lies, and to teach others about the larger dimensions of life. Maybe this person is learning that their truth is not the only truth. There might be a temptation to argue with other’s who’s views do not reflect their version of truth there may be insecurity when their truth is questioned in some way. Would be interesting to know this person’s background as the Sun, Moon, Saturn, parental signifiers are in the 9th house maybe this person was brought up with strict religious parents, who lived in an unorthodox way compared to the norms of society.

There is a strong discipline in this person or someone with a very fragile ego (Sun/Saturn). However with Uranus also connected to the Sun there is an unorthodox/radical approach taken to life as well. Maybe there is a different approach taken to religion/philosophy or just their way of life. This person has a natural sense of worldly position with the Sun Conjunct M.C so there is a need to be recognised publicly.

With Saturn in the 9th house maybe this person has had to suffer a loss of faith, possibly depression maybe there were times they have lacked faith in their own future. With Saturn in the 9th there may have been an exposure to religious teachings of a dogmatic kind in this person’s early life. This exposure can lead to disillusionment in later life. This higher authority whether a church or father has given this person expected rules to follow without question. This person may have to spend some time building up their own beliefs and not follow the family or past conditioning perhaps. Saturn in the 9th there is emphasis on law, structure, guilt, punishment. If this person’s childhood was full of Saturanian kind of morality or belief this can be a source of guilt. This is a person who may be driven into realm of philosophy/psychology so that a solution can be found for this person’s understanding of life. Saturn can of course go in the opposite direction and be a complete sceptic of life. With Saturn in the 9th this man has to have his own views on life, whether philosophical/religious/ or deep and psychological.

Moon in Sagittarius, there is a reigning need to believe in something, and to have the freedom to discover what that is. This person could even be a teacher of some kind.? The emotions can get highly charged and provoked when it comes to 9th house matters but this person has the restraining planet of Saturn which may restrain them or build an anger up in them where they may be more forceful with their views and way of life.

Venus in Scorpio in 9th - this person is looking for an ever deeper levels of knowledge of an emotional and psychological nature. The Venus in Scorpio can zoom in on any given emotion, feeling sensation, thought, dream, or desire in order to understand the “why” of it’s origin. There is a magnetism with this person which may draw people to them, Maybe this person is too fixed on their inner beliefs and they will need to eliminate the stuff they don’t need in order to gain a sense of meaning in their lives. With Venus in Scorpio/Conjunct Uranus it is possible this person has experienced a sudden loss, or betrayal or even abandonment of some kind. This person is naturally psychological and can probe the depths of the ones’ they love. Maybe this person attracts other’s who will help them understand the depths of their soul.

The 9th house being ruled by Scorpio and Venus in Scorpio squaring the Ascendant - This person will go through psychological experiences, and emotional intensity in order to become aware of their own dynamics, motivations, intentions desires and needs. There are wounds to repair as there are with everybody, but this person needs to learn how to repair those wounds from within, self empowerment, self reliance, and a self sustainment leads to a deep genuine state of inner security. This person’s Venus is square the Ascendant maybe the deep values of this person needs to find harmony with their self expression.

The planet dipositing all the Sagittarius planets which is Jupiter/Libra/8th may mean an old faith has to die for a new faith to be born. The person may find faith in other’s when they are going through their darkest of times. Maybe this person benefits out of the death of someone or something. They might have received a legacy, divorce settlement.

This person may be a writer, as Carter says signs in the middle of Gemini, can indicate writer’s, Pluto is in the middle of Gemini, and opposes Mercury which is linked to writing, in Sagittarius which is philosophical and Pluto is a deep psychological exposing, planet of a deep more penetrating nature. Gemini is also on the cusp of the 5th maybe this is part of their self expression, or it could be a hobby of theirs. Mercury is in the career house as well. Could be a powerful communicator or a keeper of secrets.

With this persons South Node Cancer in the 6th maybe they felt a duty towards family or felt guilty if they didn’t follow their religions, or rules. Or maybe they have worked with the family in some way. This person has to go towards a more tangible spirituality, find his own way in life and not be too dependent on family and emotional connections through either guilt or out of duty. Pluto being in the 4th house the area of transformation are around this person’s family roots. There is a need to let go of the past, and heavy ties with the family this person needs to find a strong power base within themselves. Neptune trines the Ascendant. There may be a mystique healing aura about this person. Pluto can also positively transform the surroundings and of anyone this person chooses to consciously apply their influence and insight.

[wilsontc]

Claire and Ray,

Thanks for your interpretations! :) With your help we're getting a few more responses. I won't give you any feedback on the responses, since I don't want to give anything away or mislead anyone with partial answers. After we get some more responses, I will reveal all (all I know, any way! ;) ) Any other takers? I know there are a few skilled astrologers out there we haven't yet heard from!

Looking for more responses,

Tim

[tsquare]

quote: Tim
I am hoping to get some more thoughts from all the talented astrologers out there. Well that probably isnt entierly me.:D

Wow....this is a tough one and an interesting one as well VERY INTERESTING, to do it justice I HAVE to come back to it later whem im a little more refreshed. There's too much here thats exscaping my attention. Those sextiles and trines to the nodes, and the planets on the midheaven in conjunction.....
Theres alot there.
and more I dont see.
I need to take a break for a moment, put it down, and step back to it and see what pops up out of the woodwork here.
My brain "astrologicaly" has been rearanged alot as of lately and I need to let stuff settle before I throw out a verdict. Its easier when the missing pieces connect themselves and fall into place. As of yet I dont see much different then anyone else thats posted, but there's something I cant quite put my finger on about this chart. It tends towards the extremes yet theres something in between it all.
==================================
on the tip of my toung-Tsquare
Edit: PS: Dont feel too abliged to wait for me on this, im a little "cooked" as of now.

[wilsontc]

tsquare,

You take the time you need! There is always more to say about a chart: just look it over, interpret it as best you can, and give us all the benefits of your insights.

Appreciating your work,

Tim

[tsquare]

Two things catch my attention about this chart other then the other obvious things and its pluto and neptune in retrograde in the 4H
these planets sort of tie the rest of the chart together for me although I dont Know what the person did with it....these energies.
from the top part of the chart and those 9thH planets and their conjunctions I see that the person obviously had an active life whatever it is or was.

A very public figure born into something having power yet not knowing what to do with it, if he recieves oposition it will come directly from his family I believe.....mabie.

The sextiles from the nodes to these planets tell me that he has a keen intelect and can "read people" and situations the culture or how he or she would posibly see it as his or her culture.
If hes political which I asume in some form he has problems with deciding how to use his power with Pluto retro. opposing mercury in 11H sagitarius.
and with the other retrograde planet in the same house, neptune 4thH, he may have a "fuzzy" home life fuzy to him any how. Like whatever he was born into he has had to radically change somehow grown out or into something jupiter may help him with that in the 8thH only problem I believe is thats its in Libra, He may be a marter of sorts and there are all kinds of those, He has a big grand way of pleaseing everyone possibly but mabie at the sacrafice of himself.

he likes to see things for himself and may have some problems with athorities who see his plans as too big and grand but jupiter in the 8H may help him pull it off some nice aspects to jupiter suprisingly no aspects to neptune or saturn which I would indicate as good I dont like saturn in the 9thH in sagitarius though on top of the moon next to the sun hes mabie not very emotional, he may be able to portray it though make people believe he is yet he keeps people away from him (or her) people may despise him for being so self assured but it depends on the people and how they are.
This person may be a social revolutionary who pulled it off or he may be someone who destroyed his homeland or himself in the process.
I dont know if this guy truely knows what he feels---sun, moon, jupiter conj.

I havent even reached the south node or taken it into concideration yet:p.

Oh and uranus as well and its hard aspect to that pluto retrograde as well.
There is a great time of rebith in this persons life I dont know what or when though, I get the feeling he let everyone know about it though.
Pluto in retro VS mercury in 10th house which is normally capricorn so Duty.
I can see the association between capricorn and duty. capricorn reaches out to those around him and people compell him to do his duty and job.

So.... Did this person have a hard time of it or what.
I asume he did. He had to make alot of big decisions and choices that affected alot of peoples lives. if he made the right ones I dont know he may have.

The other aspect Im curious about is the venus square aquarius assendent.
venus in scorpio, assendent in aquarius, Both fixed signs. This may have been a tough aspect. Mabie for his self actualization anyway.
If he broke free of it he may have done something great.
--------------------------
Overall Im thinking....He may have started out great and then crazy stuff happened further enforcing his own thinking he may have pulled back.
This guy may be an artist as well who recieved alot of controvercy as well.
Even with all these nice trines I see some conflict But overall he may have pulled off his objectives in the end with that assendent trineing pluto retro and neptune retro, If he didnt self destruct mars north node will help him with that though I believe.
After all of this is over anyhow the guy is going to want to take a break.
===========================================
Just a long winded, wild guess, of a beginer.:30:-Tsquare

I hope its not too hard to read, it was hard to do Anything today.

[Shining Ray]

I can't get this chart out of my head. I have different ideas coming through, at first it looked like some cult leaders chart, religious fanatic type of person, who rebels against politics or some other establishment, likes to tear down original structures/systems in place. I was thinking teacher, guru type of person but not sure. The M.C has so many planets conjunct that you would think this person is very publicly known Sun, Moon, Mercury, Mars, Saturn and Uranus all on the M.C. Could be an adventurer type of person who fights for his country, his homeland. Who speaks out about religious, prejudice issues indicated by the Pluto/Mercury 10th. Maybe they fly an aeroplane all the Sagittarius energy has to take flight. Or did this person die in a transport accident particularly aeroplane death, or probably another country from their birthplace. I am just throwing in wild cards you never know I might be right or completely wrong. :p

[Shining Ray]

Tim,

Can you tell us whether it is a good person or a bad person.

If it's a good person - It might be a person who has defended (Saturn) his home and country/homeland (Moon/Sagittarius) and his beliefs, Fighting for his/her country (Mars/Sagittarius). Flying airplanes. Maybe the Moon connection to his M.C Connected to his Sun, and his SN ruler had something to do with the common people or people from home he was fighting for.

A religious guru person, who travels the world (all the Sagittarius) maybe who tries to benefit people in other countries who are going through some dark times/through death or starvation people dying.

Or it could be a strict religious leader of a cult. Causing a revolution and trying to start a war, between the countries (Mars in 9th) A high profile leader of some kind.

I think I have just repeated myself but I have run out of 9th house guesses. :D

[Lissa]

Now that I know which one is the North Node..:D

The North Node is in the12th,the house of"sublime"(so to speak);I think this puts more emphasis on the religious,spiritual side of all the Sagitarius/9th house energy.The NN makes out of sign sextiles to the Sagitarius stellium(including it's own dispositor)...but the SN makes out of sign trines to it.This enegry is a little bit like a see-saw...while the NN tries to pull the person to evolve and look at things from a different sight,the SN tries to pull the individual to the "comfort zone"...I've read somewhere on this forum that we tend to act a lot like our SN while we're young.So perhaps it took a while for this person to mature and turn to the most spiritual side of the Sagitarian/9th house energy.Sagitarius energy is about understanding the world through experiencing a wide range of possibilities,seeing different places,different ways of doing things...while the6th house enegry is associated with health,taking care of our body,being careful with what we eat,etc..small day to day matters that are still important.Considering that Cancer(a very defensive sign),is on the6th house cusp,perhaps it took a while for the person to starting living up to all that adventuruous Jupiterian energy.

The Ascendant is in trine to Pluto/Neptune-a higly magnetic individual,able to atract people very easily.The square to Venus adds the attention to the physicall appearance.

Another thing I noticed is that Jupiter,the dispositor of the Sagitarius stellium,is in sextile to it.More emphasis on enthusiasm and adventurouness;) .

[wilsontc]

charm,

Thanks for your thoughts! We are starting to get a bunch of interesting guesses going here. As I mentioned, it is more interesting to see HOW people reason things out than to get any "right answer." So I am looking for how you all work your astrology when confronted with a rather "outrageous" chart! :)

Charming,

Tim

[wilsontc]

Ray,

I don't want to give anything away, I just want to see what people come up with and give everyone a chance to play!

Playing with charts,

Tim

[wilsontc]

All,

With Draco's puzzle over and Bob busy, I am the only game in town! ;) Come on in and get your astro-fix with your guesses and reasons for the chart posted on the first page of this posting.

Limited seating. Only the first 1,000 to apply will be granted admittance. ;)

Looking for customers,

Tim

[astromony]

Hi, i thought i would weigh in on this mystery person if i may. I read the thread through and i agree that this is a person who worked his way into great power but i don't see the spiritual side accented in this chart and i do see this person as a man. With the stellium of the sign of the archer on the MC, i see a violent personality who is assured of his philosophy and quite showy even cocky about himself. With north node in capricorn and 12th house, i see someone who feels compelled to structure himself and his surroundings through death- he may be a killer and if he is he is really good at it and still famous somehow. Jupiter in libra would suggest friends in high places and venus in scorpio, hmm, well that would give a desire to taste the darkside. I know, Muhammed Ali right, just kidding. Whoever he is, i bet his aim is impeccable. Thanks for another shot at a mystery chart.

[wilsontc]

astronomy,

Thanks for the posting! I PROMISE it's not Muhammad Ali! ;) Anyone else?

Open for business,

Tim

[laliqueviolin]

Most planets located in the upper hemisphere in the 3rd quadrant. He must have had a huge public life, perhaps living for others or learning about other cultures, beliefs, etc.,. Person has quite a masculine, fiery, stubborn, rough, far-out presence. I can't picture them being quiet all the time, or even reserved. The many conjunctions tell me there is a true need for mastery over personality, if this person had achieved mastery, what a healing person this can be who will fight for what is truth or deliver the public into the throes of the future.

If the opposite is true, then this is someone who may be out of control with their words, very preachy and self-righteous personality, can run amuck with their thoughts and cannot listen to others. Very long sentences, long speeches, lots of "unattainable" ideals. The severity of many conjunctions, energy in the 9th house, and Sagittarius and Scorpio cusp influence, and not to mention that mentality "their mind is better and above others" distance (Aquarius Asc) can be troubling for others to receive. Either woman or male, Moon/Venus and Sun/Mars position seem to have a very "devil may care" stance. This person is shameless, very fixed and can deliver or force opinions down people's throats.

Jupiter in Libra (8th) has a few sextiles in the chart. Hmm. I'd think this person wavers and can contradict, perhaps is a HUGE(Jupiter) defender for one team but fails to see any truth or merit in what exactly they can be defending. The nature of Libra is neutrality, however they do defend some ideal to be fair but it doesn't mean they will defend for what is perceived as morally right or wrong. Jupiter sextiles Sun, Moon, Mars, Saturn, MC. Person has a hard ego, emotions, anger, cynicism and reputation. Person is not a "light" person. No aspect to Mercury and Venus makes this person tactless in what they are saying. Mercury is in hard aspect with Pluto, can be very biting, sarcastic, poisonous or very healing or truth revealing. Stirs things, a soil shifter. This person might have some sort of astigmatism, or "burning of the eyes".. I've noticed some Mercuries in Sco/Sag have eye problems. Not sure about love life, their Venus in Scorpio suggest they can attract dark or psychotic love, but who knows? Perhaps they were lucky and had a fortunate marriage with inheritance or had handled large sums of money in their life because of other people. Huge benefactor.

Neptune and Pluto in 4th in Gemini(in Retrograde). Person must have had a rough childhood, perhaps mentally abused or had a very unreliable source of foundation/home. Mercury(10th) in Opposition with Pluto(4th), hmm. There's something peculiar about their childhood that had led up to this mentality. Might be a business/career/politician-mind. Person must be quite old(!) or dead, since Pluto is in Gemini: literature, ideas, communication, gossip sharing, spy? Which reminds me, Pluto has been transitting in Scorpio and Sagittarius over this person's MC and a couple of their planets for many years, death must have arrived already..or will be. I was going to say that before I found out about their age, that if this person was actually quite young, s/he must have grown up very quickly in public light in the recent years. Life has been an upheaval; crisis survivor.

Appearance, Etc.,.: Aquarius Asc. suggest perhaps a tall stature, or had some unexpected growth spurt, and with Sagittarius influence coloring the chart, perhaps this person is in fact quite tall or at least leggy/athletic. If female, she has masculine features such as a strong jawline. If male, person has quite feminine features, maybe dreamy wandering eyes. Liked aero-things. Airplanes, UFOs, space, modern computers... those kind of conceptual ideas appealed to this person greatly. Erratic, nervous, highly individualist.

Somehow I get the impression overall that this person must be a staunch politician or some kind of of heavy preacher(and not a tactful one either), or in fact both... but Pluto in Gemini(4th) holds me back, I wonder if this person has ever published a book in their life? This person has tremendous prophetic vision and propensity. Aquarius, Sagittarius, Scorpio. I can't picture this person as a female for some reason. This person should be famous indeed! Right now Pluto has crossed over their MC, their limelight is now. (lol)

[wilsontc]

lalique,

Very nice! Thank you for your well-thought out ideas to contribute to this ongoing discussion.

Thanking you,

Tim

[astromony]

I was looking at Mark Lerner's sight, Earth Aquarius News and found there the birthdate of Seung-Hoi Cho, the young man who killed 32 people and then himself at Virginia Tech last week. I noticed that this man also had a stellium in Sagittarius and the 9th house. He was born, according to this website on January 18, 1984-time unknown. I've seen studies of school shootings where the charts of survivors were compared to those who do not survive and it really speaks of the fatedness of human life. It's interesting and sad to me even though i believe that there is life after we leave our bodies in this incarnation. If this were a known fact, i bet people would be alot more at peace with life and each other. Thanks for listening.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[Draco]

Hi Tim.

I'm still exploring the site but I will be back to have a go, so don't reveal just yet.

By the way, may I ask, what house system is the chart cast in? I apologise again in advance as I did to Kaiousei about coming across all Virgoan, but what is the source of the data?

Oh, and well done on the mystery charts by the way!

[wilsontc]

Draco,

Good to see you! ;-) You read my mind: I was thinking about revealing the answer but I do want to have a few other guessers. I would be honored if you would give a look and give me your thoughts. The source is Kepler astrology program data, I don't know the "Rodden level" of the birth data. Information on the type of chart in the upper right of the chart itself (just to force you to take a look at it again! ;-) ).

Charting and waiting,

Tim

[Draco]

Okay then, let's give this one a go.

I'm bit torn, because I want to go about a traditional style analysis, which is what I have been learning, and need to put into practice, but then again, I also just want to go with my gut instinct, so I'll do a bit of both.

I'll assess the temperament, identify the Lord of the Geniture and the Lord of the Manners, and see what this tells me, if anything.

I've refrained from reading other interpretations just yet, so it will make an interesting read when I scroll back after posting.

I can see why you chose this chart Tim, because it is such an interesting one, full of force and drama, there is a great sense of gusto and bravado that I get from it.

I make the ascendant and it's ruler hot and dry, as is the Moon, the Sun is warm and extremely dry, as is the Lord of the Geniture which is the Sun.

So heat and dryness predominate, making for a strong fiery, choleric temperament. The placements of Mars and the Sun will tell us more about this choleric temperament, and to what area of life it was directed.

The fact that the Sun and Mars are conjoined in a fire sign, serve only to make this a particularly pure choleric, so a force to be reckoned with, in fact this native may have been described as 'heated' or 'zealous' in life, and they may not have been in the military at all, but there is something of the archetype of 'warrior' in this horoscope, on account of it being so choleric. This is a native capable of great active fury, directed up and outwards, one capable of rallying the crowds perhaps.

There is heroism in this chart, great passion and action in the public arena, particularly as all the visible planets are above the horizon, and that the Sun is the Lord of the Geniture, very orientated toward the world at large, definately not a meek homebody! This person wanted to be seen to take a very active role in public life, probably a leader in some capacity, possibly in some sort of militant, but certainly in a vehement way, full of vigour and mettle. The native could be capable of being rather intimidating. I would not pick a fight with this person, but I would want them to champion my cause or be at my defence.

The very strong, fiery choler of the temperamnet is directed toward public life or career, as the Sun and Mars, and the Moon and Saturn all conjoin in a tight stellium on the medium coeli, so not just his fire and rage were directed outward into public display or role, but also his more inner, personal nature and his troubles and self undoings, in that Saturn the ruler of the twelfth is involved. How was this native a triumph over adversity, how did this characterise the life?

I am struck by the fact that the Sun, the Lord of the Geniture in this chart, is beseiged by the malefics, a most terrible condition for any planet, other than, that is, the Sun, combusts both the malefics. So the vice like grip of the malefics clasp around the natives centre of being, but yet outshines them triumphantly, so there is great triumph over great adversity.

How were they held captive in the first place, how were they confined? Some sort of class struggle perhaps, some sort of militant revolutionary?

I do wonder how it is that partners or opponents were somehow with another or 'other' in general were part of this native's destiny, as the Sun rules the descendant and is lord, but the other or others help triumph. With the emphasis on the beseiged Sun and the seventh, I can't help thinking about war, fighting, struggle, toil, but yet great glory despite it all, but not an easy, or necessarily happy life. I feel that the natives interactions with others in life were more characterised by opposition than tenderness. A fighter.

There is bold adventure and physical displays of might and prowess with the Sagittarian emphasis and the choler atop the chart.

Without dwelling too much on the more positive characteristics, this may have been one of great activism and strenous power, especially when on display or in leadership, but there is a debilitated Mercury, making full use of it's debility in the angular tenth. So this may well have been for active demonstrations of power, freedom fighting and poltical activism, but also something of a blunderer, not eloquent or a great public speaker, not always tactful or carefully footed, but the gifts of this native are in physical action rather than in mind. Did this native have a troubled homeland and children too? If so, this will have been a motivating force in all the gusto of activism.

I keep having 'revolutionary' floating around in my head, also 'warrior', even 'barbarian', there is great prowess of that nature here.

The stellium is so interesting, and I always find such close conjunctions difficult to interpret, but the Moon is very sensitive, right at the start of a new cycle, so here is one that was born to make a change, perhaps one who changed the body politic. Why am I thinking along the lines of extreme politics here?

Jupiter, the ruler of the tenth and eleventh house, so his public life and his profit from it, disposits his stellium containing both luminaries, so is very important, and with all this bravado, with the indications of adversity, and the need to triumph it, and with Jupiter upon the eighth cusp of death, then I cannot help but think that this person has killed, so again I'm thinking along militarial lines. Did this native somehow profit from death?

Very intimidating individual, most heroic, a fighter. This wasn't some sort of saint however, not a typically 'good' person, but one remembered for the sheer active force of the being in the public arena, and the transformations that they initiated?

Oh, and the badly debilitated and cadent Venus in harsh aspect with the ascendant- I'm starting to find this individual quite frightening.

Well, I think I'll hold it here.

Normally, I actually like a two or three days to paw over a natal chart, so this was very slapdash, but I know your going to reveal soon, so I'll just see if I picked up on anything. It's quite unlike horary where your answer comes quickly and succinctly, and it all seems so obvious. I'll just leave it at this so far and see how I did. Terribly I bet. :o

I liked to say more, but I've probably gone miles out as it is, so I'll sit tight.

Anyway, I'm off to read the thread properly, and see what others thought.

[Draco]

Tim, I sent a PM because I think I may have got the native, or if not, someone very similar, I'll be overjoyed if I'm right, or near enough right.

From what I was reading into the chart, although briefly, it would make sense if it was, but now I can't wait for you to reveal it. ;)

[Atria]

Hello , interesting chart, I think that this person has his midheaven destroyed, had or will have a great impediment in his life, an Hecate, moon-saturn-sun-mar and urano, all at conjuction with midheaven,that bring serious troubles at life is so difficult to carry things forward with that sort of stellium at midheaven , also with chiefs, father mother,autorities, the posibility of great desprestige , i am very intrigue. saludos atria

[wilsontc]

Draco and Atria,

Thanks for your posts! It is interesting how different styles of astrology get different results about the character of the person. To others, please get your posts in soon, all will be revealed shortly and you want to get your guess in so you can say, "Yeah. I knew it all along. Posted the answer up there so all could see." ;)

Still open for business,

Tim

[Frisiangal]

Hi,
I have absolutely no idea who this chart refers to. The trouble is then that when looking at the configurations, people pop into your mind and it’s difficult to get them out . After the fiasco with Draco’s charts when we even knew what type of person we should be looking for, my astrological confidence has taken a real booting in the you know where. :o But defeatism isn’t in me, so here I go with my 2 cents.

Rising Sign is in Aquarius yet the 1st house is empty. This could imply that it wasn't the person themselves but what they stood for that was important. Aquarius is renowned for its radical mind, social reform, independently free spirit, and coming up with ideas that are way beyond their time. So such a person might have been a thorn in the side of the ruling body of the time....remembering that the chart is from the late 19th century (Neptune-Pluto in Gemini). How would these ideas reflect themselves? The traditional and modern rulers of Aquarius are both in the 9th house. Uranus is at the end of the l-o-n-g 9th house stellium but in Scorpio. I would therefore think that the person’s ideas would be of the deep-delving, experimentation, searching kind that attempts to find answers that could totally revolutionise and change a way of life. The ideas might seem weird and extreme to the uninitiated. It would be Saturn to give these ideas a formulation in the 9th house realm. Saturn is in Sagittarius, so it would be more of giving form to a belief system than actually seeing the belief system 'materialise' into something tangible. Saturn is lodged between the New Moon-Sun. The person is caught between a conditioning of the age into which they were born. The New Moon child, according to Rudhyar, is often representative of the person trying to get away from the parental influence and go their own way.

Apart from its more well-accepted meanings, Sagittarius-9th house has to do with social health, wealth and riches. Could this person came from a well-respected, rich and influential family who, through Saturn, either may not have encouraged the reforming ideas this person held, or respected them. Could the person have come into such a family through marriage? (Leo on 7th. Sun in Sag.).
4th house in Gemini, ruler Mercury is in Sagittarius in the 10th house. A parent may have been an oratory spokesman whose own convictions challenged those of the child (Mercury- Pluto) which were just as strong. I also wonder if the home life was ‘destroyed’in some way or the family felt compelled to move ( Pluto in 4th), whereby migration to a 9th house realm (abroad) occured. (E.g. The U.S charts have Gemini, Scorpio and Sag. rising!). Or the person may simply have felt a need to 'escape from' the family home in which it felt caged ( Neptune in 4th) and have found recognition beyond the realm of birth.
With Mercury also ruling 5th house, the person’s creative side was in the ability to bring things to public attention (10th ) through the use of speech/word/thought in a way that would be compelling (opp. Pluto) yet interesting and find a wide audience (Sag.). This also brings publishing to mind; writing, journalism etc......with Pluto...a touch of the mysterious and macabre? The fact that the chart is without any Earth content would make any writing more fictional/theoretical than proven science.

Ruler MC is Jupiter in 8th house in Libra. This could refer to a strong sense of social justice. With the sextile to the 9th house stellium in Sag. , this could be indicative of a philanthropist nature.

The nodes go from a 6th house Cancer to 12th house Capricorn. Giving imagination a concretism yet without the rough edges of physical materialism? From caring, nurturing dependence to protective responsible feeling?

My wandering mind has seen an inventor, a crazy philospher, a preacher, a physician, a newspaper giant, a politician, a novelist or two, an astrology spiritualist, a ‘new age’ methodologist, a lawyer, an extravagent 'musical' wife, and a member of a murdered royal family.
It’s probably a family ancestor.:D

Wonder where Black Moon Lilith was situated.;) :D

(Hope this gets through. Site is playing up a bit!)

Fris.

[wilsontc]

Frisian,

Thanks for playing along! I will send you the data and if you can find the BML based on that, great! Charm, the part of fortune is in the first house conjunct the Ascendant. Everyone, this astro-train is pulling out soon! Get aboard if you want to get a ride!

All aboard! ;)

Tim

[wilsontc]

Charm,

I don't have BML capabilities. But I gave the birth data to Frisian if she wants to create it!

Giving others opportunities,

Tim

[Frisiangal]

Hi again,
Spent a couple of hours this afternoon with a friend trying to get a chart image with BML installed on this thread. finally managed......dancing around the chairs in glee......when I realised that the chart showed the birth data. Quick delete as we didn't know how to make details disappear.

So this is quickly to say that MEAN BML (with which I work) is on 9 degr. Gemini conjunct Pluto, so part of the Mercury-Pluto opposition and quincunx Venus. Still makes it a very compact chart.
Please don't reveal yet, Tim. I lost the word text with BML notes I had also written :mad: so have to start again. Still have no idea who subject is.

Fris.

[Frisiangal]

BML's position in this chart makes me wonder if the person to whom it belongs is as 'angelic' as one would be led to believe by the majority of planets in 9th house. In Gemini and to Mercury BML is a natural for the creation of ideas that can be expressed via means of 'communication channels'....and with Pluto this might mean in secret....or in a language not understood by everyone! The thoughts and words may never see the light of day , although the person may appear very open-minded in every other way. What Mercury in Sag. promises, however intense with Pluto, BML may never deliver as such. It could all be one big game of role playing....possily even illusion with Neptune in Gemini too.

With Pluto-BML in Gemini, thoughts of vengeance, betrayal, and destruction could be just as strong as regeneration and transformation . With the collective Pluto-Neptune in Gemini influence and in the 4th house, I wonder if Genocide is involved whereby a family life no longer existed for the individual.

BML-Pluto is also quincunx Venus. I have yet to see a chart in which BML-Venus contacts expressed themselves in a happy way! Personal love may have been something the individual never experienced.

The word 'silence' also comes to mind, as if the person was marred from communicating in a general fashion. Yet Gemini-Mercury refer to the hands, which may have been a natural way for the person to communicate the deepest and most intense thoughts.

Still have no idea who.:D

[Draco]

Everybody is mentioning a stellium in the ninth, I don't see one.

The stellium is right on top of the MC, it dominates the tenth. :p

MEAN BML

Indeed. Next time I put up a chart, I'll bar my inclination to think 'Virgo knows best', and remember that you like to use the mean Lilith!

[Frisiangal]

Whether the stellium counts as 9th or 10th house depends upon the school of thought in which you were instructed.;) The birth time which Tim sent was exactly Noon. I query that. Could have been before or after, which is also going to effect the chart positions. I'm one of those old-fashioned people who think that if a planet is in a house it's there for a reason, even if it moves into the next house ...or back from the following house...within a few years.

For the sake of argument let's say that this individual with the stellium in the 9th house was a physician who specialised in heart transplants. Within a couple of years of birth, the stellium would have moved into the 10th. There are those who would say that it is therefore to be counted as a 10th house stellium. When he's due for retirement the physician is asked what it is that motivated his life. If the answer is, 'to use my specialised knowledge so that life could be lived in good health', I'd give him a 9th house stellium. If the answer is, "To bring my knowledge of healing to (benefit) the world", I'd give him a 10th house stellium.

An astrologer may think that categorising will produce the correct answer but it's only the individual who can answer for sure.;)


Draco:


MEAN BML.

Next time I put up a chart, I'll bar my inclination to think 'Virgo knows best', and remember that you like to use the mean Lilith


Go with your inclination. This Virgo Ascendant does.:D

Fris.

[wilsontc]

Fellow astrologyweekers,

Thank you to all who gave their thoughts about this chart. Before revealing who it is, I want to recap the main points of what was said, so we can see the methods different people were using to get their interpretations:

First up is LISSA, who focuses in on the packed 9th house (even though the planets are close to the 10th house, since they are actually in the 9th house, I (and Lissa ;) ) count them as being 9th house planets) and guessed about "travelling,philosophy and learning". A powerful person who knew how to get what they wanted and had financial ups and downs. Lissa later adds in comments about the North node in the 12th house and how this relates to possible "spirituality".

CLAIRE uses house rulers and guessed about a probable career ("My guess is this person would be ideally suited to Community Aid Abroad type of thing. Particularly involvement with government projects and perhaps education and through a church organisation") and also focused on the 9th house ("this person is very interested in travel, religions and philosphies, higher truths, at the very least.")

SHINING RAY breaks the chart into pieces and looked at several of the pieces. There was also a mention of the nodes and the need for the 12th house node's "spiritual" focus.

TSQUARE focuses in on the two things in the chart that jumped out and used these things to get an overall impression of the chart ("pluto and neptune in retrograde in the 4H these planets sort of tie the rest of the chart"). This brought up a discussion about how this person could have used their Pluto power in their life.

CHARMVIRGO explores polarity possibilities in the chart ("A stellium causes an imbalance in that area of the chart, being in Sag putting stress on philosophical matters, so this person was either highly philosophical or just the opposite."). Later charm adds in more chart challenges observed ("Mercury placed in Sag is part of the stress of the Sag stellium imbalance and I think the opposition of Mercury and Pluto would make this person mentally violent, perhaps involving killing and death.").

ASTRONOMY takes a similarly dark interpretation ("With the stellium of the sign of the archer on the MC, i see a violent personality who is assured of his philosophy and quite showy even cocky about himself.") and looks into the possibilities of someone who is not the ideal of the modern chart interpretation.

LALIQUE looks at both possibilities ("if this person had achieved mastery, what a healing person this can be who will fight for what is truth or deliver the public into the throes of the future. If the opposite is true, then this is someone who may be out of control with their words...") and breaks down these possibilities in a series of "what if" astrological discussions.

DRACO uses an extended Traditional method of interpretation and then summarizes the results ("Very intimidating individual, most heroic, a fighter. This wasn't some sort of saint however, not a typically 'good' person, but one remembered for the sheer active force of the being in the public arena, and the transformations that they initiated").

ATRIA speculates about how the overflow on the Midheaven could have "destroyed" the Midheaven and the possible outcomes ("bring serious troubles at life is so difficult to carry things forward with that sort of stellium at midheaven").

FRISIANGAL looks at the chart in pieces and then uses BML to tie the interpretation together. Frisian finds BML to be very important in chart interpreation and slight variations of birth information can throw off the accuracy of a BML interpretation ("With Pluto-BML in Gemini, thoughts of vengeance, betrayal, and destruction could be just as strong as regeneration and transformation").

JAGETOILE (unposted) focuses on the lack of earth in the chart being a source of ungroundedness (my own word) ("some psychotic potential...first catching point is there is no earthy element in this chart. only earthy point is the NN in Cap. but at critical degree(!!). my experience with personality lacking of earth is restlessness, unstablity"). Jagetoile also focuses on the lack of challenging (my own word) aspects in the chart ("this chart lacks of square but prominent in conjunction. i call such chart an unbalanced chart. lacking of square---lacking of inner tension and learning ability"). Jagetoile concludes by giving the possibilites of the chart ("do think there are two distinct possibility of this person:either highly inspired, acting out leader (POF conjunct ASC), who influence the world with his unique idealogy after taking long long time for maturity; either this is an imbalanced person who crave his marks on this world by his inner problems").


And now (if you have bothered to read this far!), the final unveiling! This is the chart of "Lucky" Luciano, "Luciano is considered the father of modern organised crime and the mastermind of the massive postwar expansion of the international heroin trade." More here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Luciano

Birth data (non-verified)
November 24, 1897
12:00 PM
Lercara Friddi
Italy

This chart fascinates me because the potential for greatness is there, and it is achieved. But the possibility for spiritual growth is NOT achieved..."Lucky" only chose to do material growth. Maybe it's a matter of "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Thank you to all who contributed their thoughts: they have opened my eyes to new and interesting ways to see astrology. And thank you to those who looked into the negative possibilities in the chart, and pointed out how strong the challenges of this seemingly "easy" (all green lines) chart actually are.

Unveiled,

Tim

[Lissa]

I have to say I feel both excited and disapointed with myself.In some ways,I was looking at the "right" aspects but I failed to truly get to their meaning.Some of the things I said could very well apply to a criminal,and I believe they do apply to Luciano(mainly the interpretation about his Ascendant and the2nd house)yet,I failed to recognise he was an outlaw.

[tsquare]

Drug dealer, mafia man, eh.
well I was close.
Now I know a little more about neptune in retro in the 4thH with all that guys moving around, or being forced to move around.
And Jupiter, really did make that guy really try to pull off something big, and grand only that big thing wasnt all that great, alot of people really did despise him.
the guys famous though, or a better way to put it I supose is infamous, or notorious.
He released his life story as movie rights and the mafia may have killed him for it.
I got close with my "but Im sure he lets everyone know about it?"
I was thinking about his struggle.

Amazing chart, Tim.
Its quite an interesting one,
Being that that guy came from poverty to being materialistically wealthy,
I asume that his jupiter trines to the sun, and moon, and saturn, on the MC in sagitarius had a big part to do with that.
Defiantly not a very religious guy I would say.
Cold calculated judgement.
Its amazing that the guy did have political ties as well, with the goverment, only in this instence they were not very good ties I would say.
Great chart, Tim
Thanks.:)
=========================
Tsquare

[Frisiangal]

Hi Tim and All,

After seeing the land of birth that Tim provided per PM, I wish I had gone with my intuition and *dared* to say what I thought when seeing the Black Moon Lilith conjunct Pluto in Gemini in the 4th house opp. Mercury. Italy-family-secretive- maffia. The effect of the 'not so angelic' seemed safer.:D I checked with Astrodatabank and Benito Mussolini 's birth date was different. I couldn't think of the correct surname and 'Graciano', 'Marciano' didn't fit. I didn't check with the small criminal database my other programme has (upstairs in the attic!), where I expect he appears.

What I would like to add is that, because the birth time is unverified, a Noon chart is taken. Thus no one can be blamed for getting an incorrect picture of someone by using astro. interpretation, who may not even physically exist at that time. Tim mentions the abundance of soft aspects....but, apart from the conjunctions, only to the nodes! There are astrologers who use a sunrise chart with an unknown birth time. Just for the sake of 'learning', I drew up a chart for approx. 6a.m. Take a look and smile. If this time had been used, I think EVERYONE's interpretation would have been different and have got it right.:D

What I think these mystery chart exercises have proven is that, apart from Tim's uncanny know-how with Draco's charts, better interpretations can be provided when the circumstances of the individual are known, upon which a 'thesis' can be built, although hindsight astrology is always looked upon in a negative way. How do people feel about this?

Good show everyone.:34:

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[wilsontc]

hi Tim, thanks for sending the birth information and this is truely a "delicious" chart. haven't signed in for quite a moment and i just read your Pm just hope it not too late to add my 2 cents. firstly if i dare to say that this person has quite some psychotic potential, i hope you are not giving out a criminal. LOL

seriously, first catching point is there is no earthy element in this chart. only earthy point is the NN in Cap. but at critical degree(!!). my experience with personality lacking of earth is restlessness, unstablity, in addition, abondance in fire denotes a person who prefers to act out in confrontation, learning to grow up is hard until forced up by saturian limitations. and this is to confirm by: the stellium in the 9th could reflect a puer image, highly idealist but incapable to concretise---many puers are selfish, cruel, immature--- i question on this person's maturity degree during the his life path. sorry that i don't know when he died (if he ever died), but i do think the development of his personality would have taken longer time than normal if he ever accomplished it. if you notice the BML conjunct Pluto at the 4th, i feel this position very harsh and challenging for a smooth childhood upbrings. Saturn in Sag. seem to appear in many chart of mental disorders. here satune conjunct the most basic instinctive planets---Sun and Mars and the moon Uranus, at a low level of personal evolution, he could be terribly alone but extremely uneasy. i think it very difficult for this person to manage all these contradictory energy with this stellium.

second catching point---in terms of aspects, this chart lacks of square but prominent in conjunction. i call such chart an unbalanced chart. lacking of square---lacking of inner tension and learning ability, prominent conjonction gives self-concentration, deep-rooted pattern, the last chart that i'v read about an alcoholic had such patter as well and it was impossible for him to get intoxicated, i think either this person is imbued with idealised idealogy or a fanatic, or alcoholic... (notice the unaspected Neptune)

it seems that i don't see this person in rose, but i notice that almost all of his personal planets are either in fall or detriment. let alone the Mercury/pluto for obession. does this person has a confirmed mental problem?

i do think there are two distinct possibility of this person:either highly inspired, acting out leader (POF conjunct ASC), who influence the world with his unique idealogy after taking long long time for maturity; either this is an imbalanced person who crave his marks on this world by his inner problems. but it's impossible to judge to which degree he could have such problems. but iwith so many planets in fall and detriments, i'm wondering...just my thoughts. Jag

[wilsontc]

Frisian,

You said:
Tim mentions the abundance of soft aspects....but, apart from the conjunctions, only to the nodes!

An interesting point, and one I didn't pick up on. The planets are "squished" together and only "easily connect" to Jupiter (expansion, also opportunity). No wonder Luciano was "lucky"! Conjunctions are stressful connections and there are a LOT of conjunctions in this chart. Leaving out the points (e.g., Ascendant, nodes, etc.): Pluto (transformation, also power, control), Neptune (spirituality, also drugs), and Mercury (thinking, also communication) are all least aspected (strong energy) and only connect to each other. So Luciano needed to use this energy together in some way, and decided he needed to be powerful in the drug trade, communicating to everyone so he can stay in control. Also add in unaspected (strong energy) Scorpio (transformation, also control) modifying Venus (relationships), indicating Luciano strongly needed to be in control in his relationships.

Learning all the time,

Tim

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[Shining Ray]

Now I know where I was getting the strong "family" connection from, this person with his (gang/the family). He was sort of a cult leader (but gang leader) and the benefiting out of death (Jupiter/8th) I should have expanded on the 8th house with it's relation to crime. Aeroplanes were involved in his death like I said in a previous post (but he died in an airport.) Although I don't think I said he died in an aeroplane, I think I said he might have had an accident with an aeroplane. (I knew something fatal happened involving/aircraft ;) ). The war/defence was pretty close too - gangland/fighting.

Overall I didn't do too badly, travel, leader, betrayals I can't remember what else I said now. The pluto/Mercury keeping secrets (drug deals). He he although I was too nice in my reading, but I am a Pisces and we see the best in everybody. ;)

[Atria]

Hello, thank you Wilson it was very interesting , my teacher (Spicasc) taught us that the midheaven reflects or speaks about the values, moral, ethic values that the person has , so Luciano has an awful midheaven his values are the reflection of them.