Nodes, True, Mean, Direct, etc.

[Libra20]

My True North Node is direct in my natal chart (H12, Pisces). I know that it is rarer for the nodes to be direct. From what I could find, it means that the person is a non-conformist, marches to the beat of their own drum. Does anyone else know of any other interpretations?

Also, which do you prefer to use, the True Node or the Mean Node? I'm especially interested since, if the mean node is used, my South node is the same degree as my Venus (H6, 19Virgo). I've read that any natal planet placed in a nodal degree, has it's influence strengthened for good or ill, depending on its character and condition. Astro.com uses the true node.

AAAHHH.... Now I'm confused. the default astro.com chart shows my true node as direct, but the Pullen chart and the chart generator here on Astrologyweekly show it as Rx. I've checked the degrees on the Rx charts and it is for the true node, not the mean node (which is always Rx).

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

My astro programs show Direct Nodes on your nativity, of course, I've always used the true nodes because they sound, well, true. Mean Nodes, to me, sound like an estimation, where as True Nodes would appear to be the actual placement of the Nodes. Which makes me wonder why - if we have a way to calculate the exact position of the nodes - some programs still use the Mean positions. However, not being a Nodal expert, I could be very very wrong as to my assumptions.

[wilsontc]

Libra,

What source said that retrograding had meaning in nodes? I have never heard that before. I have heard that retrograding had meaning in planets, but not in nodes.

Curious,

Tim

[Libra20]

What source said that retrograding had meaning in nodes?

I've been looking for where I saw that the True Node direct can mean that the person is a non-conformist, but I couldn't find it. I think it was probably a posting on another forum. I did see another poster that said he noticed in his chart readings that these people were sometimes a "loose cannon." If, despite the software differences, I do have a direct True Node, I'd say that non-conformist does fit me, but not loose cannon.

Kaio - Thanks for checking my node on your software. I'm now running a little in favor of it being direct. Although, maybe I should just flip a coin ;) I think I'll go with it being direct.

I've seen postings/articles go back and forth between True and Mean. With some saying that if Mean was good enough for thousands of years, why change.... Hmmm... I think I prefer the True Node, since the Mean Node is right smack on my Venus :eek:

[Joanna Doe]

Hi,

Just to say that my NN is also direct, in aquarius, in the 5 th house. And is not so easy to feel that we are marching in a different drummer...
sorry for bad english. lol

2 may 1971, 4 pm, Lisbon, Portugal

[Carole]

Libra20 wrote:
From what I could find, it means that the person is a non-conformist, marches to the beat of their own drum.

I have my North Node direct and I would agree with that. But I'd hardly define myself as a loose cannon. Other aspects may have some influence upon this, as well.

For all of those who might be interested, Unukalhai sent me this address where to download a worthy e-book by Mohan Koparkar on Lunar Nodes:


http://www.mininova.org/tor/645219

It's a very interesting and the most complete information on the Lunar Nodes that I have read so far.

Carole

[Libra20]

Thanks for the link, Carole! I've become fascinated lately with the lunar nodes, both in my own chart and in synastry.

[Carole]

Libra20:

You are very welcome! I hope you already have the e-book by now.

Enjoy it!

Carole.

[Joanna Doe]

Thank you for your suggestion but it seems i can not download the file...
I should try with some help, maybe!
Best wishes and hope we can exchange more information in the future as i'm eager to learn more on synastry

Joanna

[Draco]

Nodes fluctuating between retrograde and direct? I must admit, that's a new one to me. I have never known this to be discussed before. You learn something new everyday! :rolleyes:

Might someone explain, how do the nodes change direction? The Sun and Moon do not, so how could the nodes, and if the nodes are deviating from their normal direction, then why is this never indicated in horoscopes?

[Libra20]

Wow, Draco, I'm impressed that I'm actually able to answer a question of yours. Your horary skills always blow me away.

Here a brief summary from astrologycom.com:

"The motion of the Moon's Mean Node is retrograde through the zodiac at the rate of roughly one degree every 19 days (compare the 19 year cycle of lunation). I should clarify here that the Moon's Mean Node is always retrograde, but the True Node oscillates according to the Moon's "wobble". This is caused by the gravitational effects of the Earth/Moon interaction, so the True Node sometimes has periods of direct motion. These periods of direct motion are considered unfortunate, as they go against the "natural motion" of the nodes. The Mean Node averages this "wobble" out, so giving a clearer picture."

Although, I don't think I like the part where this astrologer says that it could be considered "unfortunate." :eek:

Since it is uncommon for the True Node to be direct, astro.com only lists the "d" for the direct true node (not for the retrograde) which is why you probably didn't notice. This is using their "web default" style.

The following is a description of a "moon wobble" from a non-nodal article (different site), but it should describe the motion a bit. "Moon Wobbles get their name from exactly that, the moon wobbling. As the moon revolves around Earth, it doesn't remain in the same plane as it orbits this planet. The Moon moves in a sign-wave sort-of action above and below Earth's Equator and plane of orbit. The Moon's movement can vary up to 5 or more degrees above and below the plane of Earth's orbit. This sign-wave motion creates the mathematical points called Lunar Nodes."

[Carole]

Draco:

About the motion of the nodes, I transcript here excerpts from an article written by Robert Tillet (an Australian astrologer) that I read on www.astrologycom.com.

"The motion of the Moon's Mean Node is retrograde through the zodiac at the rate of roughly one degree every 19 days (compare the 19 year cycle of lunation). I should clarify here that the Moon's Mean Node is always retrograde, but the True Node oscillates according to the Moon's "wobble". This is caused by the gravitational effects of the Earth/Moon interaction, so the True Node sometimes has periods of direct motion. These periods of direct motion are considered unfortunate, as they go against the "natural motion" of the nodes. The Mean Node averages this "wobble" out, so giving a clearer picture."

"The significance of the Nodes has been widely underestimated in Western Astrology over the past fifty years or so, due to some extent to the rise of "psychological" or "humanistic" interpretative paradigms that have devalued many traditional features of the astrologer's toolkit. However, traditional Western astrology along with Vedic, or Indian astrology, places the Nodes on the same critical level of importance as the Sun, Moon and other visible planets. There is no doubt that this elevation of the Nodes to planetary status is justified, for experience shows that the movement of the Nodes has a very significant effect on human life and on the destinies of all beings who dwell on the surface of the Earth."

I didn't know the nodes changed direction either.


Carole

[Carole]

Oooppsss!!! We did the same thing at the same time, it seems!:o


Carole

[Libra20]

We are on the same wavelength :D

[Yoi]

I admit, I don't really understand what the lunar nodes mean. Mine is in Virgo in the 4th house. But it is exactly square my ascendant, conjunct Mars and trine Venus. I'm getting the impression that it has something to do with destiny/fate but I'm confused as to whether it is to do with personal fate or kindof group fate. The thing is all I read about the NN is about personal development, that the NN is associated with what sort of development you should aim for, where you should be head. But when I look up readings of the NN square ASC and Mars conjunct NN and Venus trine NN I get things like:

"Your life path is closely aligned with a common destiny and associated with a greater purpose for the world.",

"You are strongly keyed in to the world that you are a part of, and in a sense you can feel the major and minor tremors that go on in your environment. As such you feel a strong sense of involvement and personal responsibility, because you are so aware of how the individual impinges on the whole. "

However because my Asc is square the NN it means that there is conflict between my ASC (outer personality) and the group dynamics (NN). However the square means I can still feel and understand the group dynamics, I just won't necessarily participate in it as easily as I might have if the Asc and NN had an easy aspect or conjunction.

"You will often find yourself in the midst of the fray in your professional life, with many struggles as regards asserting yourself in groups. Conflict will touch your life in a central way, and no matter what you do you cannot escape the leadership role which puts you in the forefront. You may find yourself involved in a dynamic co-operative venture involving men and a strong element of competition, though achieving harmony or a unified goal may be an elusive quest."

"Natives with Mars conjunct North Node tend to act in harmony with the people in their environment, thus gaining both co-operation and approval. However, as the saying goes, 'Nobody is right if everybody is wrong'. The desires of the natives and their resultant actions can be swept along in a chain of mass passions that ends in self-destruction. For example, individuals caught up in a flood of misdirected patriotism can find themselves the agents or victims of war."

"Your sense of values and taste, and even your personal appearance, can awaken strong feelings of attraction in the people who know you. Your aesthetic values may play an important role in whatever associations or groups you belong to, and you may even set the style of the times through your personal judgement. Often seduced by the beauties of the world, and the temptations of material things, you have a special challenge in life as regards understanding the power of love and attraction - and their pitfalls."

So the readings seem to suggest that the NN is somehow keyed in with the destiny of the group that you are in, or at least your role in that group? So what kind of "destiny" does the NN represent?

If this is true, maybe that's where the idea that a direct NN means someone really individualistic comes from. A retrograde NN is normal, maybe representing the fact that in order to "fit in" everyone needs to sacrifice part of their individuality. This is not necessarily bad, I mean can you imagine what the world would be like if no-one ever compromised? Even leaders have to compromise sometimes. No-one's ever going to be elected President of the US without the support of "the group". However a direct NN may mean someone who can't do this and hence stands out as a true individual and non-conformist. It may be considered "unfortunate" because if you can't fit into a group (or at least pretend you fit in) you tend to be ostracized.

I have seen readings though that too many conjunctions and easy aspects to the NN suggest a social climber and superficiality, that is someone who is really into the group dynamics and revels in it but depending on the rest of the chart may be shallow and superficial. Hence the warning with my Mars conjunct NN that it shows my instincts and passions and energy is in tune with the times and hence can lead me to be some sort of leader in some group or cause but this can lead to me being swept away in one of those mass passions that lead to great destruction i.e. being part of some sort of mob. There is also a warning with my Venus trine NN is that my "nice" outside and ability to put on the manners and be attractive may all be superficial and I may be carried away the attractions of material pleasures. Hey, maybe my ASC square NN is not a bad thing after all, and maybe having a direct NN may not be bad as long as you have other aspects to the NN that help ease your way in the group dynamics. Hard aspects to the NN may hurt you in terms of social climbing and fitting in with the group but helps you maintain your sense of individuality. Too many hard aspects may lead you to be an ostracized loner but too many easy aspects can you to be a superficial social climber who strives to fit in with the group.

I still don't see how the group dynamics aspect of the NN fits in with all the talk of karma and personal development though.

Hey, I just had a thought. Looking at Hitler's chart his NN is in Cancer 16 degree, 9th house.

http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/77F8T58PnLaJ.htm

Venus and Mars are conjunct at 16 degrees in Taurus in the 7th house. There is a thus a tight sextile between both Mars and Venus and the NN. Uranus is at 19 degrees in Libra, 12th house so there is a much looser square between the NN and Uranus. But those are the only major aspects to the NN I can see. Hitler was someone who was really in tune with group dynamics and he really led his people in a mass passion to destruction. He also had a lot of charm and knew how to sway a group.

[Libra20]

Yoi,

Where did you get your info on the natal nodal aspects? Most of the sites I find that discuss the meaning of the nodal aspects are for synastry. I've got my south node right smack in the middle of a stellium of the Moon, Venus and Pluto. :eek:

As far as your question regarding the north node and group dynamics, if the north node is part of your karmic path, then perhaps this lifetime, based on the descriptions that you gave, your lessons deal with this group dynamic. We are also all still part of the collective of humanity, even though we may be moving towards letting go of attachments, we haven't yet, so maybe that aspect plays a part, too.

I've also read that the north node is a portal leading to greater awareness.

[Yoi]

Yoi,

Where did you get your info on the natal nodal aspects? Most of the sites I find that discuss the meaning of the nodal aspects are for synastry. I've got my south node right smack in the middle of a stellium of the Moon, Venus and Pluto. :eek:

As far as your question regarding the north node and group dynamics, if the north node is part of your karmic path, then perhaps this lifetime, based on the descriptions that you gave, your lessons deal with this group dynamic. We are also all still part of the collective of humanity, even though we may be moving towards letting go of attachments, we haven't yet, so maybe that aspect plays a part, too.

I've also read that the north node is a portal leading to greater awareness.

I got my info on the N. Node aspects from an astrology program which I unfortunately lost. Fortunately I copied my readings from it while it was still installed on my system but I uninstalled it and now can't find the CD. This site, as in *this* site, astrologyweekly.com also gives info on the N. Node aspects.

As for your S. Node being in a stellium, ouch. The problem is if a planet is conjunct the S. Node it means it *opposes* the N. Node.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrological-aspects/north-node-aspects.php


Astrology aspects - North Node opposition Moon This is a difficult aspect because circumstances in the natives' lives make it hard for them to synchronize their activities with current trends. In other words, the natives are plagued with bad timing due to their own circumstantially imposed inability to be in the right place at the right time, doing the right thing in the right way. Thus they are constantly forced to draw upon their own personal resources. They cannot depend upon the co-operation of others. They are emotionally alone against the world. This isolation leads to depression and a negative emotional outlook which further alienates others. ('Laugh and the world laughs with you; cry, and you cry alone.') Natives are capable of disciplined, well-planned, concentrated effort. Their ingenuity in making the most of meager resources brings solid accomplishments and a strength of character which meets adversity with courage and determination. According to some writers on the subject, this is a karmic condition, created by previous misuse of wealth, position, and popularity.

Astrology aspects - North Node opposition Venus Natives with this aspect tend to loneliness and personal isolation where their feelings are concerned. They are inept in timing social and romantic advances, approaching others when they are preoccupied or indisposed. Consequently they suffer frequent brush-offs and develop inferiority complexes. On the positive side, love takes on a serious and profound meaning. There is a desire to help and relate to those who really need love and friendship. In the long run, this brings spiritual rewards.

Astrology aspects - North Node opposition Pluto / South Node conjunct Pluto This conjunction (to the South Node) creates a condition in which the native's will is out of harmony with prevailing social trends. The tendency to initiate things at the wrong time and place generates resentment and misunderstanding. The natives are forced to regenerate their lives without the help of others. Very often, large social events which are beyond their personal control endanger or destroy their work and personal security. On the positive side, this conjunction fosters self-reliance, resourcefulness, and the ability to survive under hardships. According to some astrological philosophers, this conjunction indicates a past life condition in which the natives initiated large-scale changes without regard to their effect on others' lives. Now they must learn how it feels to be the victim of circumstances beyond their control.

This site also has good info on N.Node aspects:

http://www.geocities.com/rbltre/astro/mainindex.html

Moon Opposite North Node: You're always in the wrong place at the wrong time or say the wrong thing to the wrong people. You can't count on others' cooperation and must constantly use your own resources. You tend to isolate yourself emotionally and create a self-perpetuating cycle by alienating others with your negative attitude then becoming more negative because you're alone. You're able to make the most of what you have (which, often, may not be much) and you have a strong, courageous and determined character.

Venus Opposite North Node: You may have trouble expressing your feelings and may lack affection or displays of affection as a child, but you have a deep love of your family and your parents. Your love of domestic harmony often leads you to marry in order to have a beautiful home and family life. Your home is artistic and beautiful, even if simple, and much of the money you earn is spent on home improvements. You like good cooking.

Pluto Opposite North Node: Your desire and will clash with existing social norms. You start things at the wrong time and/or place, causing resentment and misunderstanding. You're forced to regenerate your life alone, without help, but often large social events beyond your control hinder your efforts or set back your progress, You're self-reliant and resourceful, especially when faced by hardship.

If your N.Node is direct then I guess it might make all the oppositions to the N. Node worse.

I guess it can be read like this. The N. Node represents your relationship with the prevailing social trends. A conjunction with the S. Node is an opposition to the N. Node.

Moon: women, the public (hence the thing about popularity) opposes how you interact with the group. Emotionally you don't work well with the group (hence all the talk about negativity, depression, isolation).
Venus: your aesthetics, values, approach to relationships opposes the prevailing social norms.
Pluto: your will opposes the prevailing trends. Also it looks you have trouble with your personal will being opposed by the will of the group, hence the "large social events which are beyond their personal control" which endanger their work.

One theme in the above readings seems to be that because you cannot rely on the support of others you become a very strong individual who faces hardship well and has the strength to oppose the will of the group, probably pretty resistant to ideological or religious brain washing etc.

Do you have any easy aspects or conjunctions to the N.N? Obviously the easy aspects are 'good'. The impression I get from reading the above sites is all the conjunctions with the N.N are 'good' in terms of ability to fit in with what they call "prevailing social trends" (though there are problems with getting *too* caught up in group dynamics). Too many "easy" aspects are not good because it looks like they lead to the chance of you getting lost in group dynamics but with a direct N.N. and 3 oppositions having some easy aspects to your N.N would probably really help!

[Libra20]

Wow! Yoi - Thanks for all this wonderful information! I have had a lot of the challenges that these oppositions indicate. Hmmm.... Positive stuff... The only non-opposition aspect I have to my North Node is a conjunction to my PoF (which also unfortunately also means my PoF opposes the Moon and Venus). There must be some benefit to the N. Node conj the PoF. Bob - are you lurking? Bob attempted to address some of my PoF oppositions in the PoF thread, but he wasn't looking at my whole chart, nor did I mention the North Node being here.

I haven't read, but I've heard good things about Martin Schulman's book on the nodes and Jan Spiller's "Astrology for the Soul" which is all about the nodes.