Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

[JUPITERASC]

As a result of questions on a thread at this link http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51377 and because IMO it is common knowledge amongst astrologers that checking a natal chart for correlations with transits is a basic requirement for all charts because the basic requirement is that any natal chart is a 'working chart', this is a thread for anyone interested in very basic chart rectification.

BASIC STEPS
List major life events such as academic rewards, degree, diplomas, exams passed, operations, hospital admissions of any kind, accidents, relocation to a new home, relocation abroad, marriages, divorces, births, deaths, starting first job, leaving old job, starting new job, anything important.

When looking back at transits for major events in life, as well as noting all aspects from transiting planets to the angles, remember to note in particular aspects from all the rulers of the ASC/MC/IC/DESC to other planets as well as to the angles themselves

If you focus on the seven visible planets to begin with, then you'll find that you have more than enough aspects to cope with - especially if you have many exact dates of events to check!

Btw exclude dates that are "give or take a couple of weeks" as being totally too inaccurate!

Specific dates for major events means the actual exact day as well as the precise time of the occurrence

- e.g. precise date AND time of giving birth... precise date and time of when your wife/partner/girlfriend gave birth to your child... precise date and time of being wheeled into the operating theater to have appendix removed... precise date and time of any accidents involving broken bones... precise date and time of first day at work... precise date and time of graduation award... precise date and time of car crashes... precise date and time of relocating to new home... precise date of when decree nisi granted... precise date of any relocation that resulted... precise date and time on official letter from hospital/medics giving diagnosis.... and/or precise date and time of appointment with doc/medic who delivered the news... precise date and time of graduation day...

(a) Health involves the physical body, hence examine transits to the ascendant, transits to the ascendant ruler and transits by the ascendant ruler to the angles/other planets on the specific day of any health issues

(b) divorce AND marriage BOTH involve transits to the Descendant, transits to the descendant ruler, and transits by the descendant ruler to the angles/other planets on the specific day of the decree nisi

(c) divorce AND marriage BOTH involve MC as well. So examine transits to MC and to MC ruler, as well as transits by MC ruler to any of the angles by conjunction, trine, square and/or opposition

btw for those who are married, here's a link to my thread entitled "How to Rectify/Verify your Ascendant by Using Your Wedding Day Chart" http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=46743

Good idea to focus on the following basics when analyzing your data relating to specific dates and times of events:

(a) any planets on the angles, i.e. any planet conjunct, trine, square or opposing any angle.

(b) any ruler of any one of the four angles on any one of the angles. i.e. any ruling planet of any one of the four angles that is conjunct, trine, square or opposing any angle

No harm in learning basic rectification, don't be put off by thinking it is 'too difficult/complicated/puzzling' - it is an interesting and rewarding exercise.

Have fun! What you are sleuthing for are :

(a) transiting planets close to or at the degree of your ascendant/descendant for the given time of birth

(b) transiting planets close to or at the degree of your MC/IC for the given time of birth

IMO you may find it helpful to - as you continue to focus on the seven visible planets and the degrees they occupy on the specific dates and times you have chosen - to note in particular, IF on the same day a planet aspects by conjunction, opposition, square, sextile, trine:

(1) the approximate degree you currently have for the Ascendant

while another planet on the same day aspects by conjunction, opposition, square, sextile, trine:

(2) the approximate degree you currently have for the MC

It is common knowledge that traditional ancient astrology planet domiciles for each ascendant are as follows:

Aries Ascendant = Mars
Taurus Ascendant = Venus
Gemini Ascendant = Mercury
Cancer Ascendant = Moon
Leo Ascendant = Sun
Virgo Ascendant = Mercury
Libra Ascendant = Venus
Scorpio Ascendant = Mars
Sagittarius Ascendant = Jupiter
Capricorn Ascendant = Saturn
Aquarius Ascendant = Saturn
Pisces Ascendant = Jupiter

fwiw Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were simply not visible to ancient astrologers who nevertheless successfully rectified charts and Rectification is an ancient technique at least two thousand years old, long before Uranus, Neptune or Pluto could be observed with the aid of powerful telescopes.

An example of an ancient/traditional rectification technique is the “Animodar” method of rectification which is explained at this link http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/animodar.html

Animodar is just one rectification technique of which there are many... These are just the basics... Good idea to assess/experiment with each method before drawing any firm conclusions.

Each astrologer has their own ideas as to which method is preferable and IMO fwiw then examine/experiment with all methods to find the method you prefer :smile:

[Monk]

Hi Jupiterasc,

Your post is excellent, no way would i attack it, but i would move sideways into another area....i have no idea why link below will not work on this forum involving the much loved astro.com for birthcharts, i'm not the best with computers, perhaps you can get passed the final dot with link below that for myself does not register for debate in creating link, moderators and Jupiterasc please try this link below, can you get it to work, if so, show what i'm doing wrong....we can move forward after this:- it involves Helena P Blavatsky.....

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Blavatsky,_Helena_P.

Note final dot doesn't register

Therefore i show this by other means, please scroll down to "SOURCE NOTES" on link below.....please tell me how we got to time of birth being at 02:17am....i find it deeply suspicious....enlighten me???

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=6685&mode=view

Obviously i may have a lot to debate over this.

[JUPITERASC]

Therefore i show this by other means, please scroll down to "SOURCE NOTES" on link below.....please tell me how we got to time of birth being at 02:17am....i find it deeply suspicious....enlighten me???
http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=6685&mode=view
Obviously i may have a lot to debate over this.
02:17 am is a rather precise time Monk, given that the source notes say that the lady herself gave her birth time as "forty minutes before sunrise"

That is intriguing :smile:

[Monk]

So here we have it, please note i agree Jupiterasc your post is excellent, in the past you may have wondered about me, obviously i make everyone wonder...in time i give astonishing stuff...02:17am is wrong, i have no idea of birth time, please note some people try to make a connection with Sirius with source notes!!!!!!!

I'm the only person saying that Mystery cults or Secret Societies value Alnilam as much as Sirius, obviously only with Mystics, our beloved birth chart icon may be infiltrated, they have influenced "Rectification", honest astrologers are not involved in secret societies....so why 02:17am with Blavatsky....is this artificial "Avatar"?......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar

Please note i think that "astro.com" is accurate over most birth times...but you have to admit Blavatsky is special, and could be open to infiltration...where does 02:17am come from?????

Please note below...now we see it, taken from Brady, link below:-

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=6686&mode=view

Please note Jupiterasc...i love your rectification thread, but Birth time must be accurate to go forward....i'm deeply suspicious of infiltration with Blavatsky, but love your honesty!!!!

You may think i'm against you sometimes, but you have to wait to see results...as always you are my buddy, but sometimes i do drink too much, can any one blame me?

[byjove]

Hi Jupiter. Thank you for posting this info!

I'm using a hospital-give time but I note much family disagreement.

OK I have found one or two events have the aspects listed above and other major events have none of them, but I am certain of the days. Any tips?

I'm using; date of only major house move, date of winning academic awards, date of moving abroad for study.

What I could consider using; I know my graduate date due later this year and I had a major accident when about 4 years old but escaped mostly unharmed. That one is a last resort but could prove useful later.

[JUPITERASC]

Hi Jupiter. Thank you for posting this info!

I'm using a hospital-give time but I note much family disagreement.

OK I have found one or two events have the aspects listed above and other major events have none of them, but I am certain of the days. Any tips?

I'm using; date of only major house move, date of winning academic awards, date of moving abroad for study.

What I could consider using; I know my graduate date due later this year and I had a major accident when about 4 years old but escaped mostly unharmed. That one is a last resort but could prove useful later.
fwiw IMO Marriages are great for rectification purposes byjove IF you have exact dates and times noted.

For those not married and/or not interested in marriage, then the exact dates and times of meeting significant others aka long term partners aka girl friends and/or boyfriends, are very useful

Use Graduation Day time for the commencement of the awards ceremony (after the ceremony you can use the exact time you stepped onto the stage and received your award)

Major accident escaping relatively unscathed when aged 4 years old is an excellent one to use - any exact timing of it? Exact timing gives the transiting angles and exact Moon position. Moon travels fastest of the seven visible planets :smile:

[Monk]

If anything is central we must note local time against Greenwich mean time, moderators please examine!

Many moderators come from America, please note this isn't a factor,....i will not attack American Moderators, religion and concept,this will be a double edged sword!

You have no idea yet of concepts but apply this is as a factor, yes i get pissed, but apply it, it will register with any astrology programme, Moderators be aware of this!

The factor here noted is Prime Meridian, adopted by many but not all countries by 1884 in Washington D.C., this has nothing to do with local time that goes back through history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Meridian_Conference

Now apply before this date throughout America....there is only now one location that can be applied before Meridian Conference in America, this is Greenwich, UK, you have no idea yet where this will lead.....try it several years before 1884 in America, look to meridian, it will always be local, this is easy to see, it will note everything in hours minutes and seconds...after in America it relates to hours... thus today you need to be in the right location in regards to time zones to actually be aware of what i'm saying, actually that will be honest as we go forward....don't try to go forward yet, however Moderators will note i show little bits, that must be built up!

Not all adopted this factor in 1884, indeed by some midnight has never been adopted, tell me that Jews have ever adopted midnight.....please note moderators, i'm not attacking.....the concept is never ending!

At least for now look at dates before 1884 in America, you will note that everything is rounded off to the hour after date, before will show hours, minutes and seconds.....please note this before we go further!

[Zaphod]

Thanks for the excellent post, Jup. I've been using these basic rules for many years and also find rectification a fascinating pursuit. One thing that I think you mentioned in another thread is that, for post-WW II births, some hospitals reverted from War Time to Standard Time and didn't adopt Summer Time (DST) right away. This would be worth checking when using a birth certificate's stated time.

My most recent case study was a somewhat simple one that unfortunately culminated with the 89-year-old individual's death before I got too far into the details. But I guess you could say that's the ultimate rectification data point. His chart had been rectified a long time ago by another astrologer who knew him well, which moved the ascendant from Sagittarius to Capricorn, but the exact degree wasn't available. Since his declining health had been reaching a critical stage, I got playing around with the transits of Pluto and Uranus, and advanced the unrectified birth time about an hour to put transiting Pluto closely conjunct the natal ascendant. A couple of weeks later, using the time of death, I tweaked the birth time by five more minutes to put Pluto exactly on the ascending degree, and noted that transiting Sun was exactly on the descendant and both were exactly square transiting Uranus; all these contacts were within a few minutes of arc, and all three completed a Cardinal Grand Cross with natal Mars in Libra, traditional ruler of the Scorpio MC. Interestingly, transiting Neptune (which had recently moved into the 3rd House Pisces intercept) and Sun completed a Water Grand Trine with natal Sun, which was situated within a degree of the natal MC. This looked to me like kind of a "gateway" chart signifying the gentleman's transformation to the next phase on his spiritual path, to which he went peacefully without obvious pain. I need to flesh out this broad-brush overview with a deeper analysis (I've been working with his astrologer wife on it), but it looks like a good framework to start from. It was all done in Placidus and I want to experiment with other house systems.

By the way, I'll ask a question I never got an answer to previously. Do you (or does anyone) have experience with Carole Tebbs book on rectification? I have the old AFA book by Schwickert, but it's wretchedly printed and very hard to figure out.

[JUPITERASC]

Thanks for the excellent post, Jup. I've been using these basic rules for many years and also find rectification a fascinating pursuit. One thing that I think you mentioned in another thread is that, for post-WW II births, some hospitals reverted from War Time to Standard Time and didn't adopt Summer Time (DST) right away. This would be worth checking when using a birth certificate's stated time
fwiw IMO, Rectification is the basic first step required in order to verify that the chart one is reading IS the chart of the native in question :smile:
My most recent case study was a somewhat simple one that unfortunately culminated with the 89-year-old individual's death before I got too far into the details. But I guess you could say that's the ultimate rectification data point. His chart had been rectified a long time ago by another astrologer who knew him well, which moved the ascendant from Sagittarius to Capricorn, but the exact degree wasn't available. Since his declining health had been reaching a critical stage, I got playing around with the transits of Pluto and Uranus, and advanced the unrectified birth time about an hour to put transiting Pluto closely conjunct the natal ascendant. A couple of weeks later, using the time of death, I tweaked the birth time by five more minutes to put Pluto exactly on the ascending degree, and noted that transiting Sun was exactly on the descendant and both were exactly square transiting Uranus; all these contacts were within a few minutes of arc, and all three completed a Cardinal Grand Cross with natal Mars in Libra, traditional ruler of the Scorpio MC. Interestingly, transiting Neptune (which had recently moved into the 3rd House Pisces intercept) and Sun completed a Water Grand Trine with natal Sun, which was situated within a degree of the natal MC. This looked to me like kind of a "gateway" chart signifying the gentleman's transformation to the next phase on his spiritual path, to which he went peacefully without obvious pain. I need to flesh out this broad-brush overview with a deeper analysis (I've been working with his astrologer wife on it), but it looks like a good framework to start from. It was all done in Placidus and I want to experiment with other house systems
fwiw IMO Zaphod, chart rectification methods of ancient/traditional astrology provide excellent results without the use of the relatively recently discovered outer planets whose influences on the natal chart remain debatable - however that is merely my opinion and obviously there are astrologers who like to use the outer planets – obviously there are as many methods in astrology as there are astrologers and it is up to the individual astrologer to decide for themselves.
By the way, I'll ask a question I never got an answer to previously. Do you (or does anyone) have experience with Carole Tebbs book on rectification? I have the old AFA book by Schwickert, but it's wretchedly printed and very hard to figure out.
I have a very good copy of Schwickert's book :smile:
here's a link to Carol Tebbs being interviewed by Jacqui Menkes on traditional blog talk radio in which she states that rectification is a lot of work and gives much basic and very useful information.

and here's a link to Jacqui Menkes own website http://www.jacquimenkes.com/jacquimenkes.com_page2.html

100 WORD EXTRACT FROM PROGRAM NOTE

"Rounding-off birth times to nearest quarter hour can mean that angles/cusps of the chart may be off by 4º or more which leads to an entirely different chart interpretation.

Birth times are now mostly recorded to the minute in most states and countries BUT the variation among clocks running fast or slow still provides wide variation causing similar interpretive inaccuracies.

Astrological forecasting based upon birth chart can therefore be off by as much as 4-5 years, which is not acceptable. Ms Tebbs is a frequent guest speaker at astrology conferences and is on the faculty of Kepler College"

[byjove]

JupiterASC - I have only about 3/4 major life events as listed above that I can use... I haven't celebrated enough birthdays I'm afraid. :sideways: I have gone back on the major events and found a planet (or two) on either the MC or AC in some situations, and none in others. Any tips? Should I just wait for some more events to happen? While studying this, my mother contacted me and asked what had me so studious, I explained and she decided to tell me the hospital time is wrong and I was born about 6 hours later. (I so wanted to throw something out the window :whistling: I'm the youngest of 4 and her memory has been criticised. My aunt drove my mother to the hospital and said it was about 2.5 hours after the hospital time. That's a window of time I can work with, rectification is more possible).

Zaphod - thanks for that useful information. I'll check out the link and see what I can find to help me in my efforts. I was just thinking that I needed to find astrologers who've employed these efforts already who could offer good advice, just when I read your post! :happy:

Monk - forgive me, but I'm a bit confused about what you're saying. Do you mean that some software/websites/etc may be calculating using inaccurate data? Are there are resources you would trust above others? I was born on GMT, but one hour ahead for summer time. Do the possible inaccuracies even apply to me?

[JUPITERASC]

JupiterASC - I have only about 3/4 major life events as listed above that I can use... I haven't celebrated enough birthdays I'm afraid. :sideways: I have gone back on the major events and found a planet (or two) on either the MC or AC in some situations, and none in others. Any tips? Should I just wait for some more events to happen? While studying this, my mother contacted me and asked what had me so studious, I explained and she decided to tell me the hospital time is wrong and I was born about 6 hours later
Ask your mother some more questions byjove to home in on her reasons for saying that - perhaps she has good reason to say this - and of course she may also be mistaken... intriguing :smile:
(I so wanted to throw something out the window :whistling: I'm the youngest of 4 and her memory has been criticised. My aunt drove my mother to the hospital and said it was about 2.5 hours after the hospital time. That's a window of time I can work with, rectification is more possible)
So both your aunt and your mother agree that it was AFTER the time given by the hospital... at least there is consensus there! As well as that, it is not unusual for clerical errors aka human errors to occur in hospitals and elsewhere
Zaphod - thanks for that useful information. I'll check out the link and see what I can find to help me in my efforts. I was just thinking that I needed to find astrologers who've employed these efforts already who could offer good advice, just when I read your post! :happy:

Monk - forgive me, but I'm a bit confused about what you're saying. Do you mean that some software/websites/etc may be calculating using inaccurate data? Are there are resources you would trust above others? I was born on GMT, but one hour ahead for summer time. Do the possible inaccuracies even apply to me?
Monk shall have an answer for you byjove however, I just wanted to say that astrology software IS far from perfect and is prone to error!

[Zaphod]

fwiw IMO, Rectification is the basic first step required in order to verify that the chart one is reading IS the chart of the native in question :smile:

Agreed, in principle. The only demurral I would offer is for situations in which the astrologer is present at the moment of birth, as I was for my two kids (the nurse assisting the obstetrician once said to me "What are you looking up there for," (pointing at the clock) "the action is down here!" :)) (I won't even get into the debate about whether the "moment of birth" is the first breath, the instant of conception or somewhere during the gestation period ["point of ensoulment?"]) And, unless there were severe post-natal medical complications or the father or mother dropped dead, with a newborn you won't have much in the way of life events to work with.

fwiw IMO Zaphod, chart rectification methods of ancient/traditional astrology provide excellent results without the use of the relatively recently discovered outer planets whose influences on the natal chart remain debatable - however that is merely my opinion and obviously there are astrologers who like to use the outer planets – obviously there are as many methods in astrology as there are astrologers and it is up to the individual astrologer to decide for themselves.

I'm a pragmatist who uses whatever fits the occasion. In this case I wasn't prepared to throw out the work of the other astrologer (now departed), whose skill I respected greatly, so I stayed with the Capricorn ascendant. The first thing that grabbed me - at least provisionally - related to something as significant as terminal illness (in this case, multiple myloma) was the presence of Pluto in Capricorn, possibly in the vicinity of the Ascendant. While I won't accord the outer planets primary sign rulership, I'm amenable to considering them elaborations or "shadings" (octaves?) of the traditional rulers they're paired with (at least as a working hypothesis). The subtle archetypal notation that has grown up around them just seems too good to reject out of hand. However, I do agree that the effort to force-fit them into the model is awkward at best (especially the Uranus/Saturn connection; at least Neptune/Jupiter and Pluto/Mars seem to have a bit of common ground).

[Monk]

I'm sorry i wasn't clear on my last thread section, i'm very ill, JupiterAsc knows if i'm not clear, i will give clarity on next thread section.

What i'm showing below now will only work for Northern Hemisphere, since early in 20th Century December has been prone to Summer Time in Southern Hemisphere.

JupiterAsc will be glad at least here i'm not talking about parans or projected with fixed stars, your astrology programme is accurate with planets within our solar system, so i wish to look at local time, that was apparent within our study for many centuries, time and M.C. and I.C. = Longitude!

Today we value only Greenwich UK mean time, hell have we messed with time that effects M.C. and I.C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_longitude

However please look below about LOCAL TIME:-

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/bristol-time.htm

How we denote a Jupiter M.C. today is very different to the past, lets look at a rare alignment when we used local time, actually anywhere if you apply 1st January 1753 at midnight will show up with a Jupiter M.C. because we used local time!

On the prime Meridian, Jupiter didn't return till midnight 1st Jan 2002, but now it will not show every where....how longitude works after we have messed with time is a factor with this excellent post.

I will show there are area's that local time that we measured for centuries will still apply, from 00:00 longitude from Greenwich, UK, plus multiples of every 15 degrees give or take a degree, it will work in New York or Cairo with approx. multiples....Why? Perhaps JupiterAsc can explain, he knows that four minutes of time is equal to one degree orb!

So look at Jupiter Conjunct M.C. on 1st January 1753, and note it will register anywhere!

Then look at Jupiter Conjunct M.C. at Greenwich UK at midnight on 1st January 2002....this will not show up everywhere in our era, Southern Hemesphere now uses Summer Time...so now only look at locations that are in Northern Hemisphere, and are approx. every 15 degrees of Longitude from Greenwich Mean Time, thus New York and Cairo as an example...i can explain this, but i'm hoping that JupiterAsc will work it out...start with one degree is equal to four minutes of time.. i love my puzzles Ha Ha!

[Monk]

Thus my buddy JupiterAsc,

This is very funny, Try a Birth chart for John Doe on 1st January 1753 at midnight, anywhere you like, try it anywhere, you will love my symbolism about John Doe!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doe

So now try it after Greenwich Meridian was put in place, Jupiter returned to the M.C. at midnight on 1st January 2002....it gets difficult to apply now...doesn't it? So how does every 15 degree multiples/Longitude apply give or take a degree in New York or Cairo, you have the answer within you JupiterAsc!!!

If we are going to get angles true with Longitude, then we must examine local time!

[Monk]

So who would be interested with Jupiter aligned to M.C, at midnight on New Years Day 1753 if we were looking for electional astrology?

Please note in England before date New Year was "Ladies Day" 25th of March...America was a colony at this time, thus subject to this!

In 1752 11 days were taken out of the calendar to correspond with the Gregorian Calendar, by London/Greenwich, UK!

It will be interesting only to astronomers to look at parans/astronomy that is accurate to date.....please note astrologers your programme will not show Gregorian Reform Calendar as it applies to differing countries, but only is applied to 1582, you must adjust yourself!

Please scroll down link to Calendar Reform in UK, i'm not talking about Sirius yet...am i?, Only Jupiter on M.C. If you take out 11 days then after 1752, the New Year is subject to Jupiter on M.C. at midnight on 1753...very funny!

Link below, follow through:-

http://www.wisdomportal.com/Dates/1752Jupiter.html

[Monk]

We now use time zones, all time is rounded off, thus completely different to 1752, i wonder about interpretation with angles?

Sirius still brings in the New Year on the Prime Meridian, but you have to now be in the right location for this to apply, with local time in the past it would register everywhere....try any location if you have accurate parans around approx. 1830 at midnight at New Year.

Obviously this doesn't take us back to 1582 in Rome, but to gain longevity against precession inaccurate projected measure was used first, after a couple of centuries, the accurate paran took over, i can explain all this, and isn't Synchronicity!

Graph below on link showing Greenwich, UK at midnight on 1st January 2013 Sirius Culminating....this will work for New York or Cairo...every 15 degrees of Longitude, give or take a degree...thats how time works now!

http://2012forum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=6694&mode=view

[JUPITERASC]

Thus my buddy JupiterAsc,

This is very funny, Try a Birth chart for John Doe on 1st January 1753 at midnight, anywhere you like, try it anywhere, you will love my symbolism about John Doe!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doe

So now try it after Greenwich Meridian was put in place, Jupiter returned to the M.C. at midnight on 1st January 2002....it gets difficult to apply now...doesn't it? So how does every 15 degree multiples/Longitude apply give or take a degree in New York or Cairo, you have the answer within you JupiterAsc!!!

If we are going to get angles true with Longitude, then we must examine local time!
You have presented quite a conundrum Monk... very difficult indeed since many abstruse calculations required - unless we have assistance from The very helpful Equation of Time :smile:

QUOTE:

“Table of Mean Value of the Equation of Time, in Minutes (at true Noon)”

“To correct Solar Time for Standard Time: Add Equation of Time when Sun "slow," i.e., sign is positive (+); subtract when Sun "fast," i.e., sign is negative (-)”

http://www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/sundials/equation_of_time.html (http://www.wsanford.com/%7Ewsanford/exo/sundials/equation_of_time.html)

[JUPITERASC]

btw this link provides more details regarding the whys and wherefores of "The Equation of Time" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

The following 100 word Extract focuses on the nub of the matter :smile:

"'Equation' is here used in a somewhat archaic sense, meaning "correction". Prior to invention of pendulum-controlled mechanical clocks, sundials were the only reliable timepieces, and were generally considered to tell the right time. Right time was essentially defined as that which was shown by a sundial. When good clocks were introduced, they usually disagreed with sundials, so the equation of time was used to "correct" their readings to obtain sundial time. Some clocks, called equation clocks, included an internal mechanism to perform this correction. Later, as clocks became the dominant good timepieces, uncorrected clock time was accepted as being accurate"

[byjove]

Ask your mother some more questions byjove to home in on her reasons for saying that - perhaps she has good reason to say this - and of course she may also be mistaken... intriguing :smile:

So both your aunt and your mother agree that it was AFTER the time given by the hospital... at least there is consensus there! As well as that, it is not unusual for clerical errors aka human errors to occur in hospitals and elsewhere

Monk shall have an answer for you byjove however, I just wanted to say that astrology software IS far from perfect and is prone to error!

I can add one more person to the picture; my eldest sister. A classic Cancerian with a usually excellent memory, she said 1.5/2 hours after the hospital time. I have probably exhausted family with questions, though I may contact the hospital and see if I'm given the same time again.

All I know is I think it was Ms. Scarlet in the kitchen with the revolver. :lol:

[JUPITERASC]

I can add one more person to the picture; my eldest sister. A classic Cancerian with a usually excellent memory, she said 1.5/2 hours after the hospital time. I have probably exhausted family with questions
1.5/2 hours by jove? So between 1.5 and 2 hours? So your sister is in broad agreement with your aunt. If both are broadly correct then the hospital clearly 'estimated' the time!
though I may contact the hospital and see if I'm given the same time again.
Good idea... any way you may be allowed to view original notes made at that time? Should be on your medical records as well as your mothers medical records
All I know is I think it was Ms. Scarlet in the kitchen with the revolver. :lol:
Ms. Scarlet in the kitchen? Was that before or after you had gathered everyone in the library to tell them you had solved the mystery? :smile:

[Monk]

Be careful, JupiterAsc, you have never known a link like this, so don't go against moderators....mostly moderators are chosen in America, they pay out big money to be a moderator, i don't know your factor on this, Jupiterasc...show how you paid out....Rule number one....Sorry if you don't, your concept will not register here, don't register if you don't pay up, actually to register to Solar Fire is going to cost you, i need confirmation that this is applied before we go further.

We may need how to to apply against governments....i will die soon, i can show, but you know i apply many programmes... i bought them, cost is down to me, it made my life less interesting due to cost!

You know i will make it very interesting now, JupiterAsc...how can you be a factor if we have no knowledge of how you paid for any astrology programme....i show connected to me....to show connected to you will need £200:00, i can show with numerous payments, being poor,can you, with analysis?....i doubt it.....astrologers wait for what follows!!!!

[JUPITERASC]

You know i will make it very interesting now, JupiterAsc...how can you be a factor if we have no knowledge of how you paid for any astrology programme....i show connected to me....to show connected to you will need £200:00, i can show with numerous payments, being poor,can you, with analysis?....i doubt it.....astrologers wait for what follows!!!!
Hi Monk! £200? Is that the cost of Bernadette Brady's Starlight astrology program? I have my own copy of Solar Fire on another hard drive that I no longer use and have been using alternative software :smile:

[Monk]

Please note, i ask for no analysis, between astrology programmes, hell yes, i bought stuff that was pirate in London, but being half dead, i know how to apply, thus Solar Fire, Indeed i have a pirate copy, but i was a member of the best order of astrology at the time in London, so i would be able to get a pirate copy of Solar Fire......have you ever paid out for Solar Fire, or Brady stuff, whoopi do, bill me, i did pay out for Brady, not for pirate, Solar fire....obviously i was in the right location for pirate analysis, does any want to dispute....moderators apply with cost, London is a factor....with everyhing i do i show Brady programme, that is linked to Solar Fire...i paid out for Brady for fixed stars, and was in the right location for the best school for astrology, no doubt i will laugh how to bill me now with a pirate copy, you have no idea how this will apply now?

Being half dead....does this worry me? Hell any one having paid out on this forum having paid for solar fire will know...sorry i have a pirate copy....yes it did cost me.....but you have no idea how this corresponds with dates....so what i have a pirate copy.... do you think i care with where we go now??? I'm half dead...i did what i had to do, do i care with copywright?.....Bill Me...Giggle!

Show JupiterAsc, that you have paid for any programme against moderators, last warning still stands....sorry i was in the best location for a school noted for astrology.....pay out and show!

Actually some may think a pirate copy is suspect...we can apply as we go forward......we have a long way to go yet....so what i have a pirate copy of solar fire.....members have paid out big time for this and moderators, am i bothered? I do what is right, bill me Ha Ha?

I show accurate stuff, not all is pirate, but i did pay for Brady, indeed how does pirate stuff apply if you are in the know......not a problem, obviously this is next section....have you ever paid for any programme JupiterAsc? Hell people know, being half dead, indeed i bought a few pirate copies...but doesn't that make me not honest...not so with Brady....All these programmes cost so much, i can show i bought some including Brady, what you must be interested in JupiterAsc is how we go forward with people who really have bought a good copy of Solar Fire?.can you JUPITERASC show that you bought any to start debate!

[JUPITERASC]

Show JupiterAsc, that you have paid for any programme against moderators, last warning still stands....sorry i was in the best location for a school noted for astrology.....pay out and show!

Actually some may think a pirate copy is suspect...we can apply as we go forward......we have a long way to go yet....so what i have a pirate copy of solar fire.....members have paid out big time for this and moderators, am i bothered? I do what is right, bill me Ha Ha?

I show accurate stuff, not all isn't pirate, but i did pay for Brady, indeed how does pirate stuff apply if you are in the know......not a problem, obviously this is next section....have you ever paid for any programme JupiterAsc? Hell people know, being half dead, indeed i bought a few pirate copies...but doesn't that make me honest...not so with Brady....All these programmes cost so much, i can i bought some..can you JUPITERASC show that you bought any to start debate!
Hi Monk - I paid the full market price for Solar Fire and also forKepler BUT I found both these programs disappointing for a number of reasons, including from the perspective of Hellenistic astrology... so I searched for and found more specifically Hellenistically oriented alternatives :smile:

[piercethevale]

As I had for my 'signature by-line' a number of times I will say it here also.
The Sabian Symbols are the ultimate tool of rectification...bar none.
Though [...and quite, 'Though']... the literal interpretation of the Sabians applies to the more, the more spiritually advanced one is... and is undeniably so in the charts of 'World Servers'. Please see my thread, "The Birth Chart of Jesus?", in the Degree Symbols sub forum...and also the threads I have on interpreting Astrological/Arabic Parts/Lots through Sabian Symbology for more on this.
I recently rectified my own chart by at least 10 seconds of Time to as much as 45 seconds due to my Part of Love at 16* Libra 02' and my Part of Innocence [also called the Part of Disputes or Part of Lawsuits] at 11* Libra 03' not making sense in those degrees but making perfect sense as to who I am and what I've gone through in my 59 + years on this Earth, in the previous degrees.
It may not be apparent at a young age...nor at any age for, still others, due to what I said about 'spiritual' matters.
Good luck with these attempts and I do urge all to at least consider this technique if only for having arose from curiosity after utilizing other forms of rectification...you may be quite surprised!

[byjove]

Thank you PierceTV, I'm sure others will find that useful too. I'm reasonably young so I don't think I can pinpoint love or profession as a strong theme in my life yet. I thought about solar arcs also, as ever some people swear by them and others not at all.

One more piece of the puzzle, I pestered my dad and he said he thinks I pressed the eject button 'around 4-5am'. Add 6-8 hours for subsequent pregnancy and that's 10am-1pm. I've a new hospital letter written requesting as much detail as possible. I'll get this eventually.

[piercethevale]

Thank you PierceTV, I'm sure others will find that useful too. I'm reasonably young so I don't think I can pinpoint love or profession as a strong theme in my life yet. I thought about solar arcs also, as ever some people swear by them and others not at all.

One more piece of the puzzle, I pestered my dad and he said he thinks I pressed the eject button 'around 4-5am'. Add 6-8 hours for subsequent pregnancy and that's 10am-1pm. I've a new hospital letter written requesting as much detail as possible. I'll get this eventually.

If by that you mean to say that some consider you to have been born premature ...I believe it doesn't matter... but, that's only due to what limited experience I have in X number of charts I've done over the years.

In Dane Rudhyar's book that He co authored with his 4th and last wife, Leyla Rael, "Astrological Aspects', which was published in 1985 when He was 84 or 85 [he was born March 23, 1895]] he wrote that in all the years he'd been doing charts he only had two people in his files that had a 'Grand Semi-Sextile' [Star of Solomon] in their natal charts. I came across no less than six that I recall from late 2001 to early 2007 [as that was a 'special time' for me...in the situation and living arrangements that were in that time period.] and I seem to remember there may be as many as eight.
Although I don't know whether Dane includes the Asc. as a 'qualifier' for one of the six points as I do [and if he didn't, it was only due to his lack of experience with the matrix as to 'direct experience'..as I won't be dissuaded that it isn't...couldn't be dissuaded is the more correct term, in fact...and I also allow the Nodes and I don't know if Dane did..to that I may be in error...but even still that wouldn't be but one less from my total.].
It does come down to direct experience as far as what to truly believe...IMHO... you can only trust the so called Master Astrologers so far... [and there are some that are unable to follow them as far... and there's a couple/few of these so called Masters I don't think are worth following at all...but that's another thing altogether...or not.]

My astrological experience has been such that I'm fairly convinced that the birth time is...the moment the first breath is exhaled and the embryonic fluid is expelled... or what ever the nurses in the United States were basing these birth times on in the 1940s, 50s and 60s [as most of the charts I have done are for people in this age bracket...and was so nearly exclusively until I started these online endeavors in late 2008] seems to be right although I do believe that these nurses had a tendency to, 'round it up', as to the exact time...for the most part. Everything on birth certificates I've ever seen are only to 'the minute' and a difference of a minute amounts to... well, let me give my own as example...if not for you , as you have probably already figured this out for your own benefit..for anyone else that reads this that may wish to know.

I was born May 6 , 1953 in Glendale, [LA. Co.] Calif at, according to my birth certificate, 7:41 pm pdst.
A chart from astrodiest for that time produces and Asc. of 17* Scorpio 10' 22" and a M.C. of 24* Leo 20' 46". A chart for 7:40 pm [one minute earlier] produces an Asc. of 16* Scorpio 58' 01 and a M.C. of 24* Leo 05' 15".
That's 12' 21" difference between the Ascs. and 15' 31" for the M.C.s for 60 seconds of 'time'. Every 15 seconds rounded up that day around that time increased the error from true mark by 03' 04 plus" and the M.C. by 03' 48 plus"
When one is dealing with such subtle energies and sensitivities as the Sabian Symbols then it can be said that it's, "Nice to be Precise". Although in the matter of the two aforementioned Parts of mine they were so close to the cusp of the previous degree and given to the fact that these precepts of an influence given in form by the symbols do morph one into the next...as best as I can describe...or it may be best just to say, "Think analog not digital" as in "music recordings", as to how things in nature 'blend' one into the next.
I felt my M.C. shouldn't be changed nor my Part of Fortune at 24* Leo 58' 46" but the Asc. and Desc. symbol I never was truly comfortable with and allowed up to as much as need to be deducted there while retaining the integrity of the M.C. PoF. arrangement. This also change my Part of Hyleg from the 7th to the 6th degree of Capricorn and that was another symbol I had trouble dealing with as you can see for your self if you look up the 7th of Capricorn... It did however make mu Asc. and Part of Destiny 'One' ..and that's okay as either way I had the same symbol for the part of Destiny and it makes more sense to me to believe I was born what I was always destined to be... as one whom has lived through and seen what I have can only say...You got to live it to understand it [or believe it , for that matter.] ... either way...Part of Hyleg remaining the same or Asc. Part of Destiny being, 'One', it can, it does come off as pretty **** pretentious to most people...and I can't say I blame 'em either.

And "There's the Rub" trying to get people to recognize, accept their veracity and utilize the symbols in interpretation... somebody confronted by...say for example the 21st degree of Sagittarius as their Part of Destiny...described by Dane Rudhyar as [from his book "An Astrological Mandala"];

"A CHILD AND A DOG WEARING BORROWED EYEGLASSES.
KEYNOTE: The use of imagination and make-believe in anticipating higher stages of development.... [Dane's "Keyword{s} summation is...]
LEARNING THROUGH IMITATION."

...or something even more humble than that as there are symbols among the 360 that are...IMHO...
... People, for the most part in general, always seem to have pretty high opinions of themselves...and don't want to 'cop to' the truth... and the worst of them won't admit any validity to astrology at all! ...at least this has been my experience with Astrological analysis since I've been reading charts for people I know or knew the last 28 years... of whom nearly all were Americans and I hear we are the worst at being honest with ourselves...or 'way up there on the chart'.
one last thought..it did just occur to me that the Part of Catastrophe may be one to best judge if a chart needs rectification...at least those charts that willy only need enough time added or subtracted to change the degree of that Part to one lesser or greater.
My own Part......for President Obama, for 'Dubya'...they all are as obvious as the noses on our faces...[and if I may, once again mention, that Part of the same from the chart I've been claiming to be the true chart for Jesus/Yeshua
as the Part of Catastrophe for that chart is 27* Virgo 02' which is the 28th degree of Virgo and that is symbolized by the Sabians as :

"A BALDHEADED MAN WHO HAS SEIZED POWER.

KEYNOTE: [I]The sheer power of personality in times that call for decision.

Whether at the religious or at the socio-political and cultural level there comes a time when obsolescent patterns of order and cultural refinement have to be radically and relentlessly challenged. Catabolic personages emerge to seize power and dictate decisions that alter the structures of society; or within an individual life, an intense urge for cathartic changes mobilizes the will, and traumatic decisions are made. At such times, the issue has to be met and, ruthless as the power may appear, it must be accepted..."

That's why I was able to 'dial in' the birth time as close as I did... I was set on Pluto on the Asc. that day but that allowed about 4 minutes of lee way...it possibly can go back still as long as the Part is at 27* Virgo 00' 01" and no less...
...that is... if you can see what I mean about the Part of Catastrophe being so fitting ,as to what we do know for certain [from most all accounts and legends] about the Mans life....as the degree previous has to do with exhibiting "cultural refinement" and the later degree not being nearly as believable as the 28th of Virgo is, as to the opinions of most folk and of no qualification at all to the rest.

I know that all this does little good for someone that only knows they were 'Born in the daytime' or during some span of time that stretches hours...but if nothing else it is one more speech ...appeal .... plea to all future parents...'Get the exact time and gps location of the birth of your babies!" ...as the gps issue is another thing I could go on about for a thousand words or more... See my contribution to 'The Correct natal chart for the modern nation of India for more about that..or what I've recently come up with and written about the natal chart for the nation of the USA..they both came down to my getting as precise a take on the actual capital of the time of the birth as it made 'THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE' of importance symbolically.

Eventually this will be understood, accepted and will utilized...and after that, until something even better for rectification comes along...if there be such ...there it will remain. [...IMHO...of course...]
I would just like to see it happen sooner than later...that's all.

[piercethevale]

...and not to beat a subject to death,,,but I realized, just now, this is also a good example [by what I've written above...] to cajole all to start familiarizing your selves with as many of the Arabic Parts/Lots, Hermetic Lots, modern Astrological Parts [those that use the trans-Saturnian Planets] as much as you can stand to... for the more that you are sure of, or doubtful of on a natal chart in question,
allows that much more precision as to the rectification.

[piercethevale]

Okay...just one last thing... a helpful hint for those of you interested in attempting this technique. Start with those Arabic Parts closest to the degree cusp in question and work your ways back or forward, depending, and once you've reached a degree for which the change in symbology seems inappropriate...there's where you need to stop...in all likely hood...as you may want to go ahead and go a couple of more...just in case you 'don't see it, but it's there' as to the one that seems inappropriate by the Sabian Symbol it changed to...

It does make the process so much smoother... just disregard the signs and go by the degree enumerations themselves... as every Part will be that much lesser or that much greater in regards to every other part. That's why i say to try to familiarize yourself with as many as possible... you might end up skipping the one that is closest to the cusp!


:bandit:

[JUPITERASC]

Also, for anyone keen to explore the Animodar method of rectification briefly referred to amongst the OP comments there's an interesting discussion entitled "Rectification by Trutine of Hermes/Animodar" at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=822:smile: (http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=822)

[byjove]

I had a fair bit of trouble using these methods to fine-tune rectification because Saturn TR conjunct my natal Moon a few years ago and that dominated everything for a long period. Transits to planets are easier for me to find than angles.

[JUPITERASC]

I had a fair bit of trouble using these methods to fine-tune rectification because Saturn TR conjunct my natal Moon a few years ago and that dominated everything for a long period. Transits to planets are easier for me to find than angles.
Physical appearance indications are worth checking out as well :smile: http://reocities.com/athens/delphi/1601/physical.html

[Alice McDermott]

Don't overlook the Vertex axis in rectification. It consistently shows up in unusual events and very often in events connected to relationships and events connected to death.

The most accurate rectification tool I have found is Age Harmonics, particularly Day Age Harmonics. These can rectify your birth time down to seconds.

Alice

[byjove]

I'm not familiar with using either Alice, but I'll look into them!

p.s. JupiterASC, I just read that page about physical descriptions. Firstly, I note some very different and distinct interpretations than most authors! Well I gave it a shot anyway. I checked the decantes of each of my possible birth signs and none of them are even close, even reading in full planets in arc of the ascendant beneath. For e.g. for late Cancer rising, it mentions full, round eyes etc. but actually mine are fairly small and not so round. Another example might say plumb or short, I've average heights with a very defined body etc. Another might say high cheekbones or small hands with short fingers. Nope!

I haven't had much luck with solar arcs either. I think I'll just pay for a rectification; I've stared at my navel so long I can't tell the wood for the trees! :sleeping:

I will need all the tools I can get, my hospital said they are so understaffed that they may not be able to reply to the request at all.

[Kannon]

re: link to Blavatsky chart at astrodatabank.
Monk, somehow the dot did not get included in the clickable part of the link you posted. Here is the correct link:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Blavatsky,_Helena_P.

More on Blavatsky and her chart as summed up on this astrodatabank page:

If you read the source notes there you will see that in some quotations she gave her time of birth as nearer to midnight rather than sunrise. I don't know if this was a later or earlier period in her life, but I would take it to mean that she thought of herself as Gemini rising, not Cancer rising. In any case, I have no suspicion or notions of conspiracies of deceit.

Just a brief perusal of her biographical summary there gives a clear pictures of someone that does not at all fit the 19* Cancer Asc opp Neptune. She was incautious, a life-long globetrotter with no long-term place of residency. "...smoked incessantly and talked incessantly in a guttural voice, often witty and vulgar... cared not a hoot for convention and was humorous, impulsive and warm-hearted." In addition she married rather young (when Mars was in partile conjunction to her natal Sun) at age 17 and abruptly left her new husband within weeks. Not the behavior of a Cancer rising. In addition she showed early life brilliance with language skills, as well as a tendency to disappear from home to interact with "street ragamuffins."

This summary fits Gemini rising far more than a Cancer rising chart with ruler Moon in 4th. As the LMR source note describes, they gave her horoscope a time of shortly after midnight to put Gemini on the ASC (she talked incessantly) and the MC in Aquarius conjunct Jupiter, trine ASC. I will do one better than that. I suggest +/- 17GEM44 as the most likely Asc for her (depending on the exact birth place coordinates). This puts Jupiter and Uranus at the MC ~16 Aqua.

Rectification isn't a matter of birth times or the specificity thereof, nor of the prime meridian or matters of local time. Today's astrological computerized programs make the important conversions there. These other things are a matter for discussion of house systems, since effective Rectification by necessity focuses on obtaining the correct Asc degree (and minute) of arc so that there is actually a root point for intelligent discussion of the rest. The point in rectification is to get the correct, functioning Asc. Start with the signs.

Regarding Blavatsky, Rudhyar preferred a time that gave her Sirius rising: "probably around 2 AM, bringing the 13th or 14th degree of Cancer and the great star Sirius to the Eastern horizon of her birth-chart..." This is so unbelievably off the mark given the excellent biographical information and clearcut personality, but it makes my point about the importance of first getting the Asc in the correct sign. Then get more specific as to degree.

re: Sabian symbols

I have found these of no use whatsoever in rectification. They introduce another symbolic language of pictures more akin to tarot than anything in astrology. It is like using bits of Russian to try to clarify the exact meanings of Greek words. Yes, they may both be Cyrillic, but it just creates confusion. Not only that, but for something as specific as the Asc of a person's natal horoscope Sabian symbols are not specific, but always general and mostly vague.

Better to rely on the very distinct planetary energies for specificity in dealing with the Asc by looking at potential planetary aspects in both longitude and declination. Reliance on Sabian symbols or any other method of attempting to interpret a single degree arc without reference to what planets are involved on that particular day is to look for an 'easy money' solution.

re: Trutine of Hermes

This touts something that cannot be verified by ordinary means. When we are rectifying for a valid, authentic Ascendant, we must use events and information gathered outside the field of astrology and especially its sub-mythologies, of which the Trutine is part. The very exacting, rigorous work of Alexander Marr relating to the principle of the pre-natal epoch, a birth chart must first be rectified and validated in order to even obtain it. So trying to use the Trutine (which aims to produce the pre-natal epoch) as a rectification tool is to put the cart before the horse.

There are no special tricks to consistent, effective rectification. These tricks are attempts to short-cut the obvious challenge of rectification. Use a common sense approach of:

1. Get as definite a time range as you can, but don't take it literally. Byjove, this means I would use a time range from 5 hours previous to the hospital's recorded 'time of birth' to 6 hours after it that your mother gives. Keep the time range wide enough to account for human error.

2. Determine the correct Asc sign by looking at your personality and physical traits. Consider good, complete sources of information for this. Please don't waste your time with physiognomy drawings of gnarled half-beast caricatures supposed to represent humans or on other over-simplifications.

3. Once you've got the Asc sign that fits, look at the possible planetary aspects in both longitude and declination. They are equally important. If step 2 drove you nuts, then don't bother with this one. Just use a mid-sign chart. In order to be serious at rectification and expect to actually arrive at accurate results you must get used to considering the parallel (P) and contra-parallel (CP) aspects. For some charts they won't be relevant, but you won't know until the final result. Assume they are.

4. Validate the chart first by making sure that the MC/IC axis fits your parents. If a daytime chart the IC/4th=father; if nighttime chart MC/10th=father. Secondly, by journaling all transits, particularly by fire planets Sun-Mars-Jupiter, angular to your Asc. Describe in ordinary terms what is happening, but pay attention especially to activity, energy level and assertiveness, which is what these transits most involve. My validation standards are far stricter. I use only secondary progressions with house cusps calculated by the method of Naibod arc of Right Ascension: Standards for the validation of birth horoscopes (http://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/standards-for-the-validation-of-birth-horoscopes/)
The most important factor is using very tight, single minutes of arc orbs only for these progressed aspects and they must involve the correct horoscopic rulers specific to that chart for the event, the only exceptions being if a mundane ruler is involved in a very tight aspect.

Any astrologer that consistently gets the Asc correct within a few degrees is a very good rectifier. Most professional astrologers who attempt the task cannot do this. The reasons are twofold: poor understanding of the 12 rising signs and not referencing declinations. In fact, most professional astrologers are inconsistent at best, and at worst laughable at it. Just look at the above example by Rudhyar preferring a Cancer rising chart for Blavatsky, even though that sign clearly did not fit her, simply because it put the fixed star Sirius at the Asc. Seriously!? This is the most common problem - overspecifying before all information is fully considered. I've done it. It's easy to do, but it is still poor practice.

I'm about to put up a permanent Rectification page on my site, but it will probably not include any sort of tutorial since it is for the masses, not for astrologers. It has been my experience that sometimes a (lay)person can rectify their own chart pretty effectively when relatively minor adjustments are called for like bumping forward to the beginning of the next sign that fits them better, or pushing the Asc back a few degrees to a planet they strongly relate to that shouldn't be missing a conjunction/parallel to the Asc. I also find that most of the time people just get confused in the process.

I may decide to use an example or two with charts that demonstrate vital principles, but there are other factors relating to the hyperdimensional science of astrology that I am more interested in.

Peace... and happy rectifying.

[Kannon]

Here is the link to my blog post on Blavatsky's birth chart. Mystery solved.

Helena Blavatsky validated birth horoscope (http://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/helena-blavats…irth-horoscope/)

[JUPITERASC]

I think I'll just pay for a rectification; I've stared at my navel so long I can't tell the wood for the trees! :sleeping:
Different rectification experts may have different opinions as to your exact time of birth... :smile:

[JUPITERASC]

p.s. JupiterASC, I just read that page about physical descriptions. Firstly, I note some very different and distinct interpretations than most authors! Well I gave it a shot anyway. I checked the decantes of each of my possible birth signs and none of them are even close, even reading in full planets in arc of the ascendant beneath. For e.g. for late Cancer rising, it mentions full, round eyes etc. but actually mine are fairly small and not so round. Another example might say plumb or short, I've average heights with a very defined body etc. Another might say high cheekbones or small hands with short fingers. Nope!

That's most intriguing byjove... particularly since OryxExtinct who like you has an uncertain birthtime, found that one of the physical descriptions - on the link I posted that you refer to at http://reocities.com/athens/delphi/1601/physical.html - is a great match. Here's a link to the discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52875

Adds to the mystery of astrology:smile:

[tsmall]

I finally got around to trying to rectify my own birth chart, even though I have a military birth certificate. On another thread way back I tried a chart with an ASC corrected for local apparent time, but that didn't seem to work any better than what I had to start with. Now let me just say that the time only moves back by a minute and a half or so, but that could make a difference when timing transits and directions.

One of the methods I believe outlined in the OP was to use exact times of specific events. Rather than having to wait for several new notable events to occur, and actually try to remember the times, I used the births of my three children since I know pretty close to exactly when they were born. I have all the particulars down, but I wanted to share a few things that I noticed.

The way I knew the ASC and MC degrees were just a teensy bit off was because the day my oldest was born (her) Venus was sextile my ASC, off just by 16'. This also made the sextile from (her) Venus to the cusp of my 5th off by 16'. Also, (her) transiting PoF conjuncted my MC/IC axis by a difference of 18'.

With number two, (her) Venus trined my Sun by a difference of 18', with (her) Sun conjunct my MC by a difference of 29'. Meanwhile, my Saturn (ruler of the 5th) was sextile (her) transiting PoF by a different of 29', and trine Mercury by 35'.

Lastly, with three, her North Node was opposing my Jupiter by 20' and sextile the cusp of my 5th by 20'.

By adjusting my stated time of birth, 8:15, to 8:13 the aspects to the AC and MC lined up pretty close to perfectly, as did the aspects to the PoF. The reason I think including aspects to PoF is important is because fortune is the physical body, and fortune can only be found using the degree of the ASC.

A couple of things that I did notice when using childbirth to track timing of transits. In all the cases the nodal axis was activated, either my natal by transit, or transiting nodes to natal points. Also, in all cases the angles were involved, of course, as were the lights (funny enough, aspects to natal Sun for both daytime births and Moon for the nighttime one, with the middle daughter aspecting both lights.) Venus in two, but in all three the cusp of the 5th, or the ruler of the 5th played a role with an extremely close aspect. Lastly, Jupiter was involved in close aspect in all three.

[JUPITERASC]

Lastly, Jupiter was involved in close aspect in all three.
Interesting that Vettius Valens states:
"... Jupiter rules childbearing... of the internal parts Jupiter rules the uterus" :smile:

I note your natal Moon is Tropical Pisces and therefore Jupiter ruled

Venus, your ascendant ruler is the Exaltation ruler of Pisces

Furthermore, while the Moon is the Domicile ruler of your MC, Jupiter is the Exalted ruler of your MC

[tsmall]

Interesting that Vettius Valens states:
"... Jupiter rules childbearing... of the internal parts Jupiter rules the uterus" :smile:

I note your natal Moon is Tropical Pisces and therefore Jupiter ruled

Venus, your ascendant ruler is the Exaltation ruler of Pisces

Furthermore, while the Moon is the Domicile ruler of your MC, Jupiter is the Exalted ruler of your MC

And Venus joys in the 5th. I love seeing traditional rulerships in action, and I especially love seeing the concept of exaltation rulers having practical value. :joyful: When else is a mother most exalted, than when giving birth?

[JUPITERASC]

And Venus joys in the 5th. I love seeing traditional rulerships in action, and I especially love seeing the concept of exaltation rulers having practical value. :joyful: When else is a mother most exalted, than when giving birth?
Exactly - IMO fwiw, when the timing of a birth is accurate THEN 'star talk' is precise, accurate and even poetic re: descriptiveness :smile:
The way I knew the ASC and MC degrees were just a teensy bit off was because the day my oldest was born (her) Venus was sextile my ASC, off just by 16'. This also made the sextile from (her) Venus to the cusp of my 5th off by 16'. Also, (her) transiting PoF conjuncted my MC/IC axis by a difference of 18'.

With number two, (her) Venus trined my Sun by a difference of 18', with (her) Sun conjunct my MC by a difference of 29'. Meanwhile, my Saturn (ruler of the 5th) was sextile (her) transiting PoF by a different of 29', and trine Mercury by 35'
fwiw IMO tsmall, MC ruler as well as aspects to MC/IC axis may well relate to changes in perception of you by the public - i.e. because you now appear as a mother.

Likewise changes/transformations involving roots/ancestry/the home reflect aspects to the IC :smile:

Lastly, with three, her North Node was opposing my Jupiter by 20' and sextile the cusp of my 5th by 20'....

A couple of things that I did notice when using childbirth to track timing of transits. In all the cases the nodal axis was activated, either my natal by transit, or transiting nodes to natal points.
I remember discussion on another thread regarding the many eclipse connections your chart has tsmall and of course the Nodal axis is linked to both solar and lunar eclipses

[Alice McDermott]

re: Trutine of Hermes

This touts something that cannot be verified by ordinary means. When we are rectifying for a valid, authentic Ascendant, we must use events and information gathered outside the field of astrology and especially its sub-mythologies, of which the Trutine is part. The very exacting, rigorous work of Alexander Marr relating to the principle of the pre-natal epoch, a birth chart must first be rectified and validated in order to even obtain it. So trying to use the Trutine (which aims to produce the pre-natal epoch) as a rectification tool is to put the cart before the horse.

Do you have Marr's book Kannon? I had book 3 many, many years ago, which covered his work with the Pre-natal epoch, but discarded it because as far as my memory goes he didn't check out two very important pre-requistes before he started his research.

A. he didn't check if the births were natural i.e. no medical assistance. As the Tritune can't work at all if the birth wasn't natural I questioned his whole data.
B. he didn't check if the child was conceived in the same place as (s)he was born. This strongly affects the time between conception and birth.

Now I would like to go over his work again both to see if my memory is correct and to check his system, but can't find the book anywhere.

I agree that you need to have close to an exact time of birth before the Tritune of Hermes is accurate. I also work with the Parallax Moon, which can change the data at times.

Alice

[JUPITERASC]

One of the methods I believe outlined in the OP was to use exact times of specific events. Rather than having to wait for several new notable events to occur, and actually try to remember the times, I used the births of my three children since I know pretty close to exactly when they were born. I have all the particulars down, but I wanted to share a few things that I noticed.

The way I knew the ASC and MC degrees were just a teensy bit off was because the day my oldest was born (her) Venus was sextile my ASC, off just by 16'. This also made the sextile from (her) Venus to the cusp of my 5th off by 16'. Also, (her) transiting PoF conjuncted my MC/IC axis by a difference of 18'.

With number two, (her) Venus trined my Sun by a difference of 18', with (her) Sun conjunct my MC by a difference of 29'. Meanwhile, my Saturn (ruler of the 5th) was sextile (her) transiting PoF by a different of 29', and trine Mercury by 35'
PoF is considered most important in Hellenistic as well as traditional astrology. In fact the Education Board of this forum has guidance from Ray Austin entitled "The Five Lots of Fate, Success, Your Fortune Chart http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13197

Thank you for sharing these clear verifications of the basic method because fwiw IMO many basic as well as important astrological principles are highlighted by your data :smile:
Lastly, with three, her North Node was opposing my Jupiter by 20' and sextile the cusp of my 5th by 20'.

By adjusting my stated time of birth, 8:15, to 8:13 the aspects to the AC and MC lined up pretty close to perfectly, as did the aspects to the PoF. The reason I think including aspects to PoF is important is because fortune is the physical body, and fortune can only be found using the degree of the ASC.

A couple of things that I did notice when using childbirth to track timing of transits. In all the cases the nodal axis was activated, either my natal by transit, or transiting nodes to natal points. Also, in all cases the angles were involved, of course, as were the lights (funny enough, aspects to natal Sun for both daytime births and Moon for the nighttime one, with the middle daughter aspecting both lights.) Venus in two, but in all three the cusp of the 5th, or the ruler of the 5th played a role with an extremely close aspect. Lastly, Jupiter was involved in close aspect in all three.
Interesting also that the two sect lights, as Hellenistic astrologers designated the Sun and the Moon, are highlighted according to whether the births took place at night or in the day time. Interesting as well that for one of the three births, both sect lights play a leading role.

Sect is an Hellenistic concept. I did post some comments on sect previously on another thread and for those interested here's a basic explanation of sect that I gleaned information Robert Schmidts Project Hindsight work on Valens as well as from Professor Riley's translation of Valens http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf and the ACT astrology forum at http://actastrology.com/viewforum.php?f=4 is a mine of useful and reliable information :smile:
The Hellenistic Concept of Sect: Sect is just one word for a group of people with a common interest forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice. e.g. a political party or faction united by common interests or beliefs especially concerned with their own narrow interests . Some planets belong to one sect, and some to the other. The two sects are diurnal and nocturnal – i.e. day and night.

The Sun is the leader of the diurnal sect, and the planets in that sect are Saturn and Jupiter.

The Moon is the leader of the nocturnal sect, and the planets in that sect are Mars and Venus.

If Mercury rises before the Sun—if he’s a morning star—then Mercury belongs to the diurnal sect.

But if Mercury sets after the Sun—if he’s an evening star—then Mercury belongs to the nocturnal sect.

So, those are the two sects, their leaders, and their members. :smile:

What sect signifies
What is meant by “being in sect” or “being in the sect of favour” is simply that planets are happiest if they are in an area of a natal chart that is in sync with their sect

So, for example, a nocturnal Mars is not going to be too happy in a diurnal chart and a diurnal Saturn is not going to be too happy in a nocturnal chart.

Similarly, in politics, two sects such as the Republicans and the Democrats each want to be in power and are unhappy and could potentially cause disruption for the other elected opposition party.

In the booklet "Night & Day, Planetary sect in Astrology", Robert Hand writes on page 6, second paragraph: "Although no ancient writing ever states this explicitly, it would seem from these writings that the most important of these relationships is that a planet is of the same sect as the chart. Diurnal planets work best in diurnal charts and nocturnal planets in nocturnal charts. That the condition of the chart is the most important of these three sect factors can be inferred from the fact that many of the Greek texts only mention the charts diurnal or nocturnal status in relation to the sect of the planet. Little is said about the agreement of the sect of the planet with that of the sign or placement".

[byjove]

I know some of the iron-clad events that people frequently rectify successfully with include child birth, marriage, deaths etc. what else would rank as a priority for rectification? Would many of the events listed in the opening post act has lesser guides? I might be footloose and fancy free for a while longer...:whistling:

[JUPITERASC]

I know some of the iron-clad events that people frequently rectify successfully with include child birth, marriage, deaths etc. what else would rank as a priority for rectification? Would many of the events listed in the opening post act has lesser guides? I might be footloose and fancy free for a while longer...:whistling:
Did you mean this section of the opening post byjove?
As a result of questions on a thread at this link http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51377 and because IMO it is common knowledge amongst astrologers that checking a natal chart for correlations with transits is a basic requirement for all charts because the basic requirement is that any natal chart is a 'working chart', this is a thread for anyone interested in very basic chart rectification.

BASIC STEPS
List major life events such as academic rewards, degree, diplomas, exams passed, operations, hospital admissions of any kind, accidents, relocation to a new home, relocation abroad, marriages, divorces, births, deaths, starting first job, leaving old job, starting new job, anything important.

When looking back at transits for major events in life, as well as noting all aspects from transiting planets to the angles, remember to note in particular aspects from all the rulers of the ASC/MC/IC/DESC to other planets as well as to the angles themselves

If you focus on the seven visible planets to begin with, then you'll find that you have more than enough aspects to cope with - especially if you have many exact dates of events to check!

Btw exclude dates that are "give or take a couple of weeks" as being totally too inaccurate!

Specific dates for major events means the actual exact day as well as the precise time of the occurrence

[byjove]

Yeah, even though I'm past my college years, I still can't say I've done many of those things. If I were given that list to fill to aid rectification, I wouldn't be helpful. :pinched:

The most sailient features of my life so far are likely success in personal goals. For now, they don't generally include much on that list.

I just thought I'd add that I have a genuine interest in these tips, both for myself and for future practice of astrology - I'm not trying to be difficult! So I'm all eyes and ears here.

[JUPITERASC]

I just thought I'd add that I have a genuine interest in these tips, both for myself and for future practice of astrology - I'm not trying to be difficult! So I'm all eyes and ears here.
Thanks byjove, the ascendant is a perennially intriguing subject! Worth also mentioning that even within the same race there are differences of skin tone and eye colour

It's not unusual for children of the same race to be fairer or darker complexioned than their siblings.

So within the race of white/whitish people some siblings are darker/lighter complexioned than others and likewise within the race of black/blackish people some siblings are darker/lighter complexioned than others
Physical appearance indications are worth checking out as well :smile: http://reocities.com/athens/delphi/1601/physical.html

Focusing on height, weight, bone structure, eye colour gives overall good results

Black people with Blue eyes and other ethnicities Parts 1 and 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhW7rR6VDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCPBpCWm89Y

[byjove]

News!

A few months ago, before I even considered rectification, I contacted my hospital for a long version of a birth report of my birth day. After indicating that they were so busy and underfunded that I may not received news at all, today I received it.

On a copy of the original report, it clearly says 12.04. So, after investigating further, the hospital held the same time and it's quite specific.

I'm going to disregard human memory in this case, a hospital record is far more reliable than family members' memories. (They all have a different time anyway) I opened the case originally to see if there was an inaccuracy of 5/10 minutes or so, not expecting more.

Case closed, wuhoo! :lol:

[JUPITERASC]

News!
A few months ago, before I even considered rectification, I contacted my hospital for a long version of a birth report of my birth day. After indicating that they were so busy and underfunded that I may not received news at all, today I received it.

On a copy of the original report, it clearly says 12.04. So, after investigating further, the hospital held the same time and it's quite specific.

I'm going to disregard human memory in this case, a hospital record is far more reliable than family members' memories. (They all have a different time anyway) I opened the case originally to see if there was an inaccuracy of 5/10 minutes or so, not expecting more.

Case closed, wuhoo! :lol:
Good news indeed byjove... or 'Hercule Poirot' perhaps!

Wonderful to have an official record and as you say one expects to allow 5/10 minutes or so in any event.

12:04 is rather happily specific.

Your story is an excellent 'cautionary tale' regarding memory... although having said that, 'tis worth also noting that occasionally, memories are amazingly accurate :smile:

[byjove]

Indeed! For any of us on a research hunt on an issue here knows the value of stories laid out in a thread like this, I hope the breadth of experiences here comes in use to others! :smile:

[Knight]

ok, i see a lot of discussions and a lot of theory that "we need to see IC/MC aspects and their lords aspects,etc..." but what is a concrete set of aspects that would suggest important events in the life ?

Example:
birth of a child = say... 5th house cusp to be exactly conjunct with transiting moon or sun...
marriage (in the curch) = say... DC lord conjunct sun...
divorce = say...DC lord square venus or mars depending...

From your experience what are the obvious examples for such events ?
I know for me:
exact date and time of first hiring
exact date and time of wedding to officer
exact date and time of wedding in church (different that the previous)
exact date and time of birth for my child
and when i put them on natal chart, there are no exact orbs to, no notable aspects to IC/DC or AC/DC lords...
My mother and father, they have a range of 5 mins for my birth time that I can live with :)

Still, for my own satisfaction I would like to check the correctness of the birth time... :)

[Alice McDermott]

ok, i see a lot of discussions and a lot of theory that "we need to see IC/MC aspects and their lords aspects,etc..." but what is a concrete set of aspects that would suggest important events in the life ?

Example:
birth of a child = say... 5th house cusp to be exactly conjunct with transiting moon or sun...
marriage (in the curch) = say... DC lord conjunct sun...
divorce = say...DC lord square venus or mars depending...

From your experience what are the obvious examples for such events ?
I know for me:
exact date and time of first hiring
exact date and time of wedding to officer
exact date and time of wedding in church (different that the previous)
exact date and time of birth for my child
and when i put them on natal chart, there are no exact orbs to, no notable aspects to IC/DC or AC/DC lords...
My mother and father, they have a range of 5 mins for my birth time that I can live with :)

Still, for my own satisfaction I would like to check the correctness of the birth time... :)

if you have the correct house system for you, house cusps are very responsive to relevant events. However, it is not always through transits.

Day Age Harmonics are the very best method I have found to date to get an exact time of birth as planets and/or angles in the harmonic chart will always trigger within a degree the relevant planet and/or house cusp. I have described what they are and how to use them here: http://aliceportman.com/daily-age-harmonics/

The relevant Primary and/or secondary and/or tertiary progressions and/or solar arc directions will be usually active and often triggered by a transit.

Oftent the date of marriage evolves from the date you first met or got together with your partner so don't overlook those charts.

And you are quite correct that the angles are not always triggered in important events; I have tested out this idea with the Jigsaw program, using event dates for recorded birth times and it has not often given the correct Ascendant and MC. The main triggers are the relevant planets and/or house cusps. For example, the main indications of a long journey would be the activation of the 9th house cusp and/or planets in the 9th and/or the ruler of the 9th; as the Ascendant is connected to the physical body and environment, there would also be a trigger to this point, but I would expect the 9th house to be the main describer of these kinds of events.

The Polaris rectification program created by Isaac Starkman allows for this in its assessments, though, from my point of view, it is handicaped by only using the Topocentric house system.

Alice

[JUPITERASC]

ok, i see a lot of discussions and a lot of theory that "we need to see IC/MC aspects and their lords aspects,etc..." but what is a concrete set of aspects that would suggest important events in the life ?

Example:
birth of a child = say... 5th house cusp to be exactly conjunct with transiting moon or sun...
marriage (in the curch) = say... DC lord conjunct sun...
divorce = say...DC lord square venus or mars depending...

From your experience what are the obvious examples for such events ?
I know for me:
exact date and time of first hiring
exact date and time of wedding to officer
exact date and time of wedding in church (different that the previous)
exact date and time of birth for my child
and when i put them on natal chart, there are no exact orbs to, no notable aspects to IC/DC or AC/DC lords...
My mother and father, they have a range of 5 mins for my birth time that I can live with :)

Still, for my own satisfaction I would like to check the correctness of the birth time... :)
Hi Knight :smile:
During a wedding, particularly at the time the vows are spoken,


(a) the Ascendant Ruler and the Ruler of Cusp Seven must connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis because that is what a wedding is, astrologically!

(b) On the wedding day - Sun, Moon, Venus and Mars must also connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis

Why?

Venus and Mars must connect in order to symbolise the 'Archetypal Lovers'

Sun and Moon must connect in order to symbolise the 'Domestic Couple' – now united and involved in 'house-keeping', child-bearing, child rearing


Some of the ways the ASC/DESC rulers may connect to the Natal Horizon:


(1) Trine, sextile, square, opposition, conjunction

(2) Any ASC/DESC ruler conjunct the MC is considered to connect to the local horizon via the MC/IC AXIS

(3) I have noticed from my own personal observation, that the Midpoints of the transiting ASC/DESC rulers of the wedding date, frequently connect to the Natal Horizon.


A much older astrological friend (who has since died) told me they learned the technique to verify an ascendant while a student decades ago - they never asked for payment for the information: I continue to pass the method on freely to others so that anyone may test it for themselves.

If it does not work for you then check out another method – there are plenty! :smile:

[JUPITERASC]

Trutine of Hermes is another useful rectification technique - here's a brief description of the concept, and then a link to a pdf with a worked example

There's more info online and a book was published many years ago on the subject http://www.amazon.com/The-Prenatal-Epoch-E-H-Bailey/dp/1933303247
An astrological technique from antiquity generally known as the Prenatal Epoch :smile:

'....Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is Moon's position at conception.


....Known as "Trutine of Hermes," from Hermes Trismegistus who stated the law as follows:

"The place of the Moon at conception becomes the birth ascendant or its opposite point."


"But this proved to be but one-half of a very important law, for while the...

Ascendant at birth was the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, the Ascendant or its opposite point at this Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth

....a very remarkable interchange of factors." E.H. Bailey.


This idea is so well known that astrology software such as Solar Fire allows the user to calculate their prenatal Epoch. The idea of the prenatal Epoch is also useful in chart rectification

– details viewable at http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/PreNatalEpoch.pdf

[Alice McDermott]

Trutine of Hermes is another useful rectification technique - here's a brief description of the concept, and then a link to a pdf with a worked example

There's more info online and a book was published many years ago on the subject http://www.amazon.com/The-Prenatal-Epoch-E-H-Bailey/dp/1933303247

This is a wonderful system with which I have extensively worked for many years. However, it will only work if the birth is natural. Any medical assistance that interferes with the natural flow of conception to birth disrupts this system, so things like induction and C-section will not produce accurate results and forceps delivery will often bring the first breath some minutes earlier than nature intended. Pain killers will sometimes speed up or slow down the birth to some degree, but the pre-natal epoch can still be a fairly accurate tool in these cases.

Alice

[sonia1983]

Hye ,Is there anyone who can help me in birth time rectification?
I have two time of births and I am really confused which one is mine?
this chart is with 12:45 pm birth time and the other one is 1.30 pm.

some events of my life.


2008 april break up.my b.f left me
28th dec 2008 had minor surgery of right breast .
31st dec 2011 exchange of first mail to my ex b.f .we became g.f/b.f later on.
11 oct 2012 ,got a shock.my b.f ditched me.and saw his marriage /engagement pictures on 11th oct 2012.
2011 august got thyroid issue.
latest hiring on 19th oct 2011 till present.

[JUPITERASC]

Hye ,Is there anyone who can help me in birth time rectification?
I have two time of births and I am really confused which one is mine?
this chart is with 12:45 pm birth time and the other one is 1.30 pm
Could you provide the reason why at this stage you have two birth times with a three quarter of an hour time difference between the two charts i.e. confirmation required as to whether these are medical records OR memories of the event from family members OR possibly a combination of both

ALSO you have not attached your natal chart - if you would like to, it would be helpful if you attach two natal chart, one for each of the times you have given
some events of my life.
2008 april break up.my b.f left me
28th dec 2008 had minor surgery of right breast .
31st dec 2011 exchange of first mail to my ex b.f .we became g.f/b.f later on.
11 oct 2012 ,got a shock.my b.f ditched me.and saw his marriage /engagement pictures on 11th oct 2012.
2011 august got thyroid issue.
latest hiring on 19th oct 2011 till present.
Time is important sonia 1983

(1)so in 2008 you need to have the DAY as well as the TIME ON THAT DAY that you realised your bf left
(2) 28 December 2011 TIME that minor surgery commenced is important
(3) time of the email of 31 Dec 2011
(4) TIME on 11 Oct 2012 that you saw marriage/engagement pictures and/or TIME bf ditched
(5) DAY as well as TIME medics told you of thyroid issue. If it was a letter what day/time was it written/received


Rectification is a complex process so the hour as well as the day, month and year simplifies - even then its not easy - there are reliable experts who can do it such as http://www.martingansten.com/btr.php Notice that Martin Gansten, a well known professional expert on rectification requests at least 10 major events. So if you have any dates of for example events such as Graduation, Day you began first employment that would be useful.

In the meantime, as someone who does NOT claim to be an expert, I shall do my best to be of use :smile:

[sonia1983]

Thank you for replying back.one of my friend who is learning astrology told me that my 2 t.o.b's show difference in marital matters.if my t.o.b is 12.45pm then,it shows a divorce aspect after marriage and according to 1.30 pm ,I have smooth married life.I am anxious to know about correct t.o.b.my mother told me 1.30 pm as exact where as my grand mother told me 12.45 p.m

kindly,help me birth time rectification.

my past events.

recent employment:19 oct 2011 was the joining date at 7.40 A.m.

I got thyroid report on 5 aug 2011 at 8.20 p.m

I saw my ex b.f engagement/marriage pictures on 11 oct 2012 at 9.45 P.m


minor surgery of right breast :I was called in the operation theater at 10 A.m where I also waited for a little time and finally I was out of operation theater at 1.00 p.m.and date was 28 dec 2008.




I

[sonia1983]

and other chart with other timings.

[sonia1983]

here is other chart

[ThisIsMe]

How could one find a birth time for a celebrity that is currently unknown? I'm curious because of this site Astrotheme.com has tons of celebs and some have birth times and some don't.

How do they find the time, you think?

[JUPITERASC]

How could one find a birth time for a celebrity that is currently unknown? I'm curious because of this site Astrotheme.com has tons of celebs and some have birth times and some don't.

How do they find the time, you think?
Reading the original post at the beginning of the thread highlights many basic methods of rectification

Some celebrities have their time of birth detailed on their birth certificate - but not all do :smile:

[JUPITERASC]

Thank you for replying back.one of my friend who is learning astrology told me that my 2 t.o.b's show difference in marital matters.if my t.o.b is 12.45pm then,it shows a divorce aspect after marriage and according to 1.30 pm ,I have smooth married life.I am anxious to know about correct t.o.b.my mother told me 1.30 pm as exact where as my grand mother told me 12.45 p.m

kindly,help me birth time rectification.
my past events.
recent employment:19 oct 2011 was the joining date at 7.40 A.m.
I got thyroid report on 5 aug 2011 at 8.20 p.m
I saw my ex b.f engagement/marriage pictures on 11 oct 2012 at 9.45 P.m
minor surgery of right breast :I was called in the operation theater at 10 A.m where I also waited for a little time and finally I was out of operation theater at 1.00 p.m.and date was 28 dec 2008.
I
"On The Spot Rectification" guide http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p9qt1DVBzk

'...For state of the art rectification manual check out "A Rectification Manual: The American Presidency http://regulus-astrology.com/presidency.html the first synthesis of medieval astrology’s predictive techniques applied to natal chart rectification. For too many years, an incomplete predictive model has hampered efforts by astrologers to compute an accurate birth time. With no consensus on rectification methods, rectified birth times are commonly held in such disrepute they rank on par with dirty data, as defined by Astrodatabank, a leading astrology database vendor.....'

'....With the recovery of medieval predictive techniques, the era of disenchantment over rectification is now over. Not just Transits, Progressions, and Solar Arcs; but Fidaria, Directing by Triplicity, the Moon’s aspects, Directing through the Bounds, Primary Directions, Profections, and Solar Return aspects to natal Arabic Parts fill out a complete predictive toolbox. For the first time, proper attribution between life events and corresponding predictive methods is now possible; making accurate rectification an achievable feat.....' :smile:

[JUPITERASC]

btw, remember that detailed instructions on precisely how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method may be viewed FOR FREE at http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm :smile:

[byjove]

Hi, I've been waiting for transiting Mars to approach my MC for minor fine-tuning of birth time. Today TR Mars should be exactly conjunct my MC. However, yesterday I had mini-arguments with people (including a parent and brother) though they know I've been very tense and it's not personal.

Is it too early to consider an MC one degree earlier or is it perhaps fine as it is? I note that Mercury is one degree before my natal MC which could lead to arguments too. The last few days I built up seething anger and frustration, from at least last Thursday 7th until today. I have a natal and transit chart attached.

[JUPITERASC]

Hi, I've been waiting for transiting Mars to approach my MC for minor fine-tuning of birth time. Today TR Mars should be exactly conjunct my MC. However, yesterday I had mini-arguments with people (including a parent and brother) though they know I've been very tense and it's not personal.

Is it too early to consider an MC one degree earlier or is it perhaps fine as it is? I note that Mercury is one degree before my natal MC which could lead to arguments too. The last few days I built up seething anger and frustration, from at least last Thursday 7th until today. I have a natal and transit chart attached.
Keep noting transits and experimenting with fine-tuning by a degree of so because you can always re-assess as you obtain more data

Moon is often a timer and transiting Moon may have triggered Mars several times - including via Jupiter

- that's because Mars is transiting the natural home aka domicile of Jupiter while Jupiter is transiting your natal 11th house of friends

- the chart you have posted shows transiting Moon trine transiting Jupiter :smile:

[JUPITERASC]

....I note that Mercury is one degree before my natal MC which could lead to arguments too. The last few days I built up seething anger and frustration, from at least last Thursday 7th until today. I have a natal and transit chart attached.
Mars transiting by conjunction with natal Mercury potentially indicates events connected with the houses ruled by Mercury and Mars in natal chart
i.e. Gemini, Virgo, Aries, Scorpio and Capricorn houses. Include Capricorn as the exalted home of Mars.

Your whole sign natal 3rd is Virgo
3rd among other significations would indicate events connected with a sibling/siblings

Aries is whole sign 10th the location of natal Jupiter as well as your exalted Aries Sun

Capricorn as whole sign 7th brings Saturn into the mix

Remember also that the 28 November 2012 eclipse degree 6 Tropical Gemini 47 was transited by Jupiter on 26 February 2013 and transiting Jupiter remains within orb so for the past at least twelve days there has been potential for volatile events... it's possible that your keeping a vigilant eye on Mars impending transit along with an awareness of the kinds of events Mars tends to trigger may well have paid dividends!

Mars transits your natal Mercury approximately every two years, however events differ due to other transiting planets being located elsewhere each time

Your whole sign 12th - the house of 'self undoing' and of 'hidden enemies' - is Gemini so do take care and avoid 'being your own worst enemy!' - particularly since the 28 November 2012 eclipse was in Tropical Gemini

A great opportunity to keep notes and observations in order to observe and analyze multiple layers! Particularly since eclipse connected events may be triggered up to several years after the actual eclipse. Eclipse degrees remain sensitive for the length of time of the eclipse.

The Predictive Power of Eclipse Paths Bill Meridian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t4FQbwji1g

and

Eclipse Phenomena by Celeste Teal http://www.moonvalleyastrologer.com/eclipse-phenomenon/ :smile:

[byjove]

Thanks for taking a look. Yes, I did spot 3rd sign ruled by Mercury, which has just been transited by Mars, and exactly by conjunction just yesterday. I didn't expect Sunday to be eventful for any career significations anyway. I certainly feel less 'trigger-happy' though. Yes, once-in-two-year conjunction so I thought I should keep notes. Recent times have the distinct impression of events/habits/situations being repeated (connecting with events 3 years ago almost exactly).