How does the Sun in Fall "color" the chart?

[soratothamax]

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_planets1_e.htm

How does the Sun in the signs color everything else?

And when someone is in Fall and Detriment how is everything colored? Is everything colored moderately, as in Fall? Or in Aquarius is everything colored, making all the planets seem colder than they are?

Or are they too weak to color the charts completely?

Does it mean the Sun's presence or expression is weakened in the planets? Or that all the planets are now "weakened"?

Is the Sun how we express, or the way we express, the other planets? Or is the sun just holding the other planets back but if it's weak, it doesn't hold back the other planets very well...?

Will none of the planets be visible, and overall, they will come off like weak people, weakening everything in the chart?

Is it that they weakened the other planets with a weak sun, or that it weakened it's own presence, making it hard to see who they truly are?

I'm confused...

[Moog]

A weak sun will have it's own problems, and will give a weak house where Leo is, and any planets in Leo may be affected. Any yoga combinations involving the sun are likely to be rendered less effective, and time periods ruled by the Sun are likely to give less happy results.

Weak Sun people tend to be 'wallflower-ish', fading into the background, unable to impress themselves on others, express themselves satisfactorily, lead and persuade others, be politically and socially effective etc.

[JUPITERASC]

.....And when someone is in Fall and Detriment how is everything colored?
fwiw soratothamax the following is a 96 word quote from Skyskript traditional astrology http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html:smile: (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig4.html)

"For a Planet in his Detriment is like a person cast out of all his Estate without hopes of Recovery, whereas the Fall shows but a present subjection unto a misfortune with hopes of Recovery. (William Lilly, 'Choice Astrological Aphorisms' Merlini Anglici Ephemeris, 1676)

A planet in detriment/fall is in precarious condition, more so if peregrine or otherwise afflicted. Many planets debilitated in this way in a nativity is considered a sign of obscurity and low birth. Firmicus described such a person as: wretched, poor, low of birth and constantly plagued by had luck (Mathesis, 2.3.3)"

[soratothamax]

A weak sun will have it's own problems, and will give a weak house where Leo is, and any planets in Leo may be affected. Any yoga combinations involving the sun are likely to be rendered less effective, and time periods ruled by the Sun are likely to give less happy results.

Weak Sun people tend to be 'wallflower-ish', fading into the background, unable to impress themselves on others, express themselves satisfactorily, lead and persuade others, be politically and socially effective etc.

But what is the sun? What does it do? It's function's is to shine light on the chart, and without the sun we can't see the other planets, from what I know? So with a weak sun, we won't be able to see the expressions of the other planets as clearly? If it's wall-flowerish, will they not be able to shine a Venus in Scorpio? Will it prohibit the other planets from shining forth?

All sun signs influence all the planets, from what I know.

[Moog]

But what is the sun? What does it do? It's function's is to shine light on the chart, and without the sun we can't see the other planets, from what I know? So with a weak sun, we won't be able to see the expressions of the other planets as clearly? If it's wall-flowerish, will they not be able to shine a Venus in Scorpio? Will it prohibit the other planets from shining forth?

All sun signs influence all the planets, from what I know.

I know people with weak Suns who are fine artists, for example, having a strong Venus. Or fine communicators, having a strong Mercury. The problem is that they find it hard to be listened to, or to put their work out into the world to be appreciated, or do effective networking etc.

So, in that sense, I believe the planetary energies in the chart do all work together to create a whole picture.

A weak and afflicted Moon particularly seems to have a huge effect on the entire life of any particular person with it. I haven't looked at Suns with the same depth.

[byjove]

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_planets1_e.htm

How does the Sun in the signs color everything else?

And when someone is in Fall and Detriment how is everything colored? Is everything colored moderately, as in Fall? Or in Aquarius is everything colored, making all the planets seem colder than they are?

Or are they too weak to color the charts completely?

Does it mean the Sun's presence or expression is weakened in the planets? Or that all the planets are now "weakened"?

Is the Sun how we express, or the way we express, the other planets? Or is the sun just holding the other planets back but if it's weak, it doesn't hold back the other planets very well...?

Will none of the planets be visible, and overall, they will come off like weak people, weakening everything in the chart?

Is it that they weakened the other planets with a weak sun, or that it weakened it's own presence, making it hard to see who they truly are?

I'm confused...

Hi! :smile:

I would make absolutely certain that a planet is weakened - even a planet in detriment or fall can have minor or major assistance. Most modern astrological references that I've come across give little reason to hope, that's just the books I've come across. Traditional astrologer and older seems to provide more reasoning and along with that I've found that detriment/fall is not necessarily the end of the line.

Consider and search for:

1) Accidental dignities
2) Joys. Joys are not just Moon in the 3rd, just the other day I read an exalted Sun places Mars in joy, or a planet in detriment/fall can be more or less saved by the company of an exalted planet in the same sign
3) Other dignities, face, terms etc. These are more minor usually but definitely help.

If you're really just looking at the detriment / fall part and nothing else, then I think others have said what I would say - a shrinking violet type. Event if they have strength elsewhere in the chart, you just can't get the Sun in bad shape, the exit point won't carry the other strengths.

Others on the forum might have seen different over the years with their experience, if anyone has please tell us! (sits and listens) :joyful:

[soratothamax]

I know people with weak Suns who are fine artists, for example, having a strong Venus. Or fine communicators, having a strong Mercury. The problem is that they find it hard to be listened to, or to put their work out into the world to be appreciated, or do effective networking etc.

So, in that sense, I believe the planetary energies in the chart do all work together to create a whole picture.

A weak and afflicted Moon particularly seems to have a huge effect on the entire life of any particular person with it. I haven't looked at Suns with the same depth.

This makes a lot of sense. Like someone with Mercury in Gemini can be a very good communicator, but because the Sun is in Taurus they have a hard time being recognized as one?

[Moog]

This makes a lot of sense. Like someone with Mercury in Gemini can be a very good communicator, but because the Sun is in Taurus they have a hard time being recognized as one?

In a nutshell.

[SniperBomber328]

This basically means anyone born from January 20 - February 18 and September 23 - October 22 have little to no chance in gaining recognition, being extrovert and sociable or in any way, having confidence. Also anyone born between March 21 - April 19 and July 21 - August 22 should exude the aforementioned traits.

I know many people (personaly) (and am pretty sure celebrities born at the days indicated above) who have the above traits. I also know people who have Sun in Aries and Leo who are rather shy, introverted, not very sociable and/or plainly a behind-the-scenes type of person(s).

Meaning that the Sign placement alone is NOT the only factor to consider when looking at a planets strength. One must also consider accidental dignities/debilities, other essential dignities/debilities, planet placement by house, where it disposits (or if the Final dispositor), etc.

[soratothamax]

This basically means anyone born from January 20 - February 18 and September 23 - October 22 have little to no chance in gaining recognition, being extrovert and sociable or in any way, having confidence. Also anyone born between March 21 - April 19 and July 21 - August 22 should exude the aforementioned traits.

I know many people (personaly) (and am pretty sure celebrities born at the days indicated above) who have the above traits. I also know people who have Sun in Aries and Leo who are rather shy, introverted, not very sociable and/or plainly a behind-the-scenes type of person(s).

Meaning that the Sign placement alone is NOT the only factor to consider when looking at a planets strength. One must also consider accidental dignities/debilities, other essential dignities/debilities, planet placement by house, where it disposits (or if the Final dispositor), etc.

I do know this. I was just interested in the general information and wanted to know more about it.

I also wanted to know this. Say for instance someone has a Sun in Taurus, but a Moon in Leo. Could that depositor help the Sun even think about their identities more?

[Moog]

This basically means anyone born from January 20 - February 18 and September 23 - October 22 have little to no chance in gaining recognition, being extrovert and sociable or in any way, having confidence. Also anyone born between March 21 - April 19 and July 21 - August 22 should exude the aforementioned traits.

I know many people (personaly) (and am pretty sure celebrities born at the days indicated above) who have the above traits. I also know people who have Sun in Aries and Leo who are rather shy, introverted, not very sociable and/or plainly a behind-the-scenes type of person(s).

Meaning that the Sign placement alone is NOT the only factor to consider when looking at a planets strength. One must also consider accidental dignities/debilities, other essential dignities/debilities, planet placement by house, where it disposits (or if the Final dispositor), etc.

Of course.

Sun in Libra in an angle either from the ascendant or the moon, or both. Venus co-present could help out. Nodal interference would be another one. There's probably many more.

I was able to perform a statistical analysis on a reasonable size sample of celebrity sun signs recently, and sidereal Libra was indeed the least represented.

You can't talk about every factor that can have an influence in every post, I'd not have time to do anything else.

[soratothamax]

Say for instance you have Venus in Aries conjunct Mars, or Moon in Scorpio conjunct Pluto. So even though you typically don't have comfortable positions, and this is hypothetically speaking, how would the conjunct influence you?

[JUPITERASC]

Say for instance you have Venus in Aries conjunct Mars, or Moon in Scorpio conjunct Pluto. So even though you typically don't have comfortable positions, and this is hypothetically speaking, how would the conjunct influence you?
That would depend not only on the house in which Venus in Aries conjuncts Mars but also aspects from other planets as well... and since Scorpio is the traditional home aka domicile of Mars, then Mars is an important consideration when delineating any planets in Scorpio :smile:

[Caprising]

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_planets1_e.htm

How does the Sun in the signs color everything else?

And when someone is in Fall and Detriment how is everything colored? Is everything colored moderately, as in Fall? Or in Aquarius is everything colored, making all the planets seem colder than they are?

Or are they too weak to color the charts completely?

Does it mean the Sun's presence or expression is weakened in the planets? Or that all the planets are now "weakened"?

Is the Sun how we express, or the way we express, the other planets? Or is the sun just holding the other planets back but if it's weak, it doesn't hold back the other planets very well...?

Will none of the planets be visible, and overall, they will come off like weak people, weakening everything in the chart?

Is it that they weakened the other planets with a weak sun, or that it weakened it's own presence, making it hard to see who they truly are?

I'm confused...

The sun is about self identity, and self identity is very evident when ones sun is placed in Aries for example where the native knows what he/she wants without even having to think about it! Now have a look at someone who's sun is in libra (fall), they don't know what they want instinctively, because they have to consider how their wants will affect the other people around them. The sun is usually more powerful in a mans chart, the moon is usually more powerful in a womans chart from my experience. Other planets are felt more strongly if you have your sun in fall, which is a great position if you want to learn and feel the astrological influences that we all go through.

[byjove]

Only after studying astrology privately for about 17 years, I have only now started to fully understand some of the basics of astrology. I agree with Caprising's descriptions above 100% those descriptions fit exactly what I've come to know.

[JUPITERASC]

'Introducing The Sun' - Joanna Watters http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sun1.html

QUOTE

'As Lord of the Day, Sun is masculine and can represent the father and in a woman's horoscope, the partner/kind of men to whom she is attracted.

At universal level, Sun and Leo are associated with royalty, majesty, stateliness, dignity, authority.

Strong Solar types exude seemingly boundless energy/vitality and share positive Leo characteristics - generosity, courage, confidence, clarity of vision, loyalty, strength of character, glowing health.

An afflicted Sun reverses those qualities, leading to arrogance, attention-seeking, insecurity, lack of confidence, and a shaky sense of identity. Poor health/lack of vitality can also be manifestations of an afflicted Sun...'

The Sun in Fall is considered an afflicted Sun :smile:

[may28gemini]

I think when someone has an "afflicted" Sun, the effects could lessen if they have a dignified or exalted Mars, as Mars is only 2nd to the Sun in ego, and that's a very close 2nd. Mars is the physical manifestation of the ego. Maybe an afflicted Sun can generally lack confidence, but having a strong Mars can actually counter balance it. I've seen that in several charts of Libra Sun with Capricorn or Scorpio Mars. They're pretty well accomplished people and they've been or still my mentors.

[greybeard]

Here is one portrait of Sun in Detriment or Fall:
" A weak sun will have it's own problems, and will give a weak house where Leo is, and any planets in Leo may be affected. Any yoga combinations involving the sun are likely to be rendered less effective, and time periods ruled by the Sun are likely to give less happy results.

Weak Sun people tend to be 'wallflower-ish', fading into the background, unable to impress themselves on others, express themselves satisfactorily, lead and persuade others, be politically and socially effective etc. "

Here is another:
"For a Planet in his Detriment is like a person cast out of all his Estate without hopes of Recovery, whereas the Fall shows but a present subjection unto a misfortune with hopes of Recovery. (William Lilly, 'Choice Astrological Aphorisms' Merlini Anglici Ephemeris, 1676)

A planet in detriment/fall is in precarious condition, more so if peregrine or otherwise afflicted. Many planets debilitated in this way in a nativity is considered a sign of obscurity and low birth. Firmicus described such a person as: wretched, poor, low of birth and constantly plagued by had luck (Mathesis, 2.3.3)"

Here are the names of 8 people born with the Sun in its Fall [Libra]

Miguel Aleman
Lee Iacocca
Eamon de Valera
Isaac Newton
Osama bin Laden
Mahatma Gandhi
Vladimir Putin

And here are 8 with Sun in its detriment [Aquarius]

Oprah Winfrey
Abraham Lincoln
Thomas Edison
Ronald Reagan
FDR
Charles Darwin
Bill Maher
Rosa Parks

I will let you be the judge if the statements made by these three astrologers, two of them famous long after their death and one a skilled contemporary practitioner, are true to life or not.

If these portrayals of Sun in detriment or fall are not true to life, then what do these positions really imply that will be useful to us as astrologers?

[JUPITERASC]

The following are examples of Famous Aquarians and Librans :smile:


SUN IN DETRIMENT i.e. AQUARIUS


Serial Killer John Lee Malvo, the Beltway Sniper, born 18 February 1985 - Aquarius

Jerry Brudos, American serial killer and necrophiliac, also known as "The Lust Killer" and "The Shoe Fetish Slayer" - Aquarius

Gary Ridgeway - Aquarius -18 February 1949, American serial killer known as the Green River Killer, initially convicted of 48 separate murders and later confessed to nearly twice that number. As part of his plea bargain, an additional conviction was added, bringing the total number of convictions to 49. He murdered women and girls in Washington state during the 1980s and 1990s. Most of his victims were alleged to be prostitutes. He strangled the women, usually with his arm but sometimes using ligatures. After strangling them, he would dump their bodies throughout forested and overgrown areas in King County, often returning to the dead bodies to have sexual intercourse with them.


SUN IN FALL i.e. LIBRA


Mack Ray Edwards, Serial Killer was a Libra. Air Sign, He would have a tendency to strangle. He killed himself by hanging himself.

Serial Killer: Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker 27 September 1940, Pittsburgh-born sadist, rapist and multiple murderer. Threw one victim off a cliff after strangling her and used a coat hanger and ice picks for commission of heinous crimes usually reserved for Godfathers I, II and III.

Pedro Lopez Libran accused of raping and killing more than 300 girls across South America.

Andrei Chikatilo, the Rostuv Ripper and Soviet serial killer, nicknamed The Butcher of Rostov, The Red Ripper, and The Rostov Ripper, committed the sexual assault, murder and mutilation of a minimum of 52 women and children between 1978 and 1990 in the Russian SFSR. Libran Chikatilo confessed to a total of 56 murders and was tried for 53 of these killings in April 1992. He was convicted and sentenced to death for 52 of these murders in October 1992 and subsequently executed in February 1994.

Libran George Michael Zimmerman accused murderer of Trayvon Martin is currently on bail, wearing an electronic tag - trial commences with Jury selection 10 June 2013

[JUPITERASC]

And here are 8 with Sun in its detriment [Aquarius]

Oprah Winfrey

Oprah Winfrey experienced a troubled adolescence in a small farming community, where she was sexually abused by a number of male relatives and friends of her mother, Vernita. http://www.biography.com/people/oprah-winfrey-9534419


Sun in Detriment or Fall is just one of the factors weighting a chart :smile:

Clearly, dependent on house locations and aspects of other planets, a person with Sun in Detriment or Fall, after experiencing 'a lowly obscure birth' could well eventually find fame and/or fortune. However their lowly birth and earlier life may clearly have been miserable

[byjove]

Good points.

In the past, when I read modern astrology books that disregarded essential and accidental dignities, I thought them reckless. As hugely beneficial as some astrologer's developments to the art is, few are ever 'right in all areas'. Some descriptions, even in the last 200 years are still quite fatalistic.

Has anyone seen any studies lately on this e.g. 'Sun signs of 500 CEOs' or something similar? I'm sure we could make good use of studies and technology, when I see some I'll link them here.

There is a thread around here which illustrates a seemingly high divorce rate (1st time around) for Venus in Pisces natives, despite exaltation. In totally anecdotal experience, the best I could say about the Suns is 'tendencies', a very high proportion of people I've competed and worked with did have Aries Suns (which made me chuckle) and in dating, I seem to be collecting Libra Sun men, which, so far, don't make many decisions and seem happy to follow them. That is totally anecdotal, unfinished and no generalisations are made, simply a few chuckles and a few 'tendencies' noted.

One way the Sun 'colours' the chart is that it modifies the 'strength' or deciding factor of the ascendant and the Moon. Those three generally compose the base of the character. I've been reading a bit about 'weak' ascendants, not weak as is bad but weak as in easily modified by other natal factors. Two such ascendants I'm told are Libra and Cancer. Ironically, these are both cardinal. The Sun's element contacts the ascendant's e.g. a fire Sun with a water ascendant, or a water Sun with a fire ascendant. There is a profound modification of character. Another point is chart synthesis. If a person asks you about profession, and they want be succeed in very extrovert professions and become wealthy, yet the chart has many factors of shyness, apprehension, self-doubt, the need to discuss everything with everyone before making a decision for oneself, then these are not supporting factors. Now flip that on the opposite side; the Sun, Moon and ascendant combine in a way that provides strong extrovert capacity, ambition, decisiveness etc. then the chart supports the person's desires. There is usually middle-ground on this, some extrovert and some introvert features. I often read the charts of celebrities which have both, so they may enjoy family time privately at home (private) then go out into the world as a known or popular face (public).

Another thing, I once read that the personal planets are the 'agents of the Sun'. So far I've been finding that true. One example is current Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, who, allegedly is known as a 'chair-thrower'. When things go wrong, objects are fired around the room and you don't want to be in the line of fire. Sun Aries, Mercury in Pisces, so how does the poetic voice turn into fury? There will be other ideas on this, but the 'agents of the Sun' supports this - Aries is the essential nature and the Mercury acts on behalf of the Sun in the communication faculty. The Pisces Mercury may be ordinarily calm, cooperative etc. but when anger needs expression, even a calm Mercury can't deny release.

You also asked about a weak/strong Sun affecting the other planets. There are various versions of this idea and used by Alexander the Great, Napolean and Cicero but one version goes like this:

'I'm not afraid of an army of lions lead by sheep, but instead an army of sheep led by lions'.

This is still astrological theory, but perhaps the qualities of the Sun can't be compensated by other planets if the Sun is 'weak'. I consider the above idea in the context of the Sun and it's agents. Though that shouldn't be understood as a 'weak' Sun means never achieving anything; as the above poster's list proves. (the list is gone now)

[greybeard]

The fact remains, despite enlisting criminals, or finding blemishes, that Not All, nor even a respectable group of Aquarius or Libra Sun people fit the portrayals given.

If the description does not fit reality, I think the defect lies in the description.

I'm sure you, above all people, must have read Valens on Aquarius. Do you find his characterization of that sign reaistic?

[JUPITERASC]

The fact remains, despite enlisting criminals, or finding blemishes, that Not All, nor even a respectable group of Aquarius or Libra Sun people fit the portrayals given.

If the description does not fit reality, I think the defect lies in the description.

I'm sure you, above all people, must have read Valens on Aquarius. Do you find his characterization of that sign realistic?
Of the seven billion inhabitants of this planet at least half a billion are Aquarians and another half a billion are Librans - in terms of 'being realistic' regarding the delineation of sufficient charts of 'even a respectable group' - then weigh those billion or so people against the eight or so examples shown on this thread :smile:

[Moog]

[COLOR=Navy][B]Sun in Detriment or Fall is just one of the factors weighting a chart :smile:


And the Sun's detriment/fall (or otherwise) is just one of the factors for weighing the Sun in a chart

[greybeard]

That is specious reasoning.
Weigh any two signs against the other billions and you get the same result.
I offered some examples and said "I will leave you to judge."
So judge. And I will leave you.

[Moog]

Oprah's chart looks pretty bad in general

Her Sun is exalted in her dasamsa (http://rohinaa.com/om/index.php/categoryblog/118-dasamsa-analysis) though.

[JUPITERASC]

That is specious reasoning.
Not necessarily. That's only one person's judgement aka opinion. Not everyone would agree :smile:
Weigh any two signs against the other billions and you get the same result.
Highlighting that you isolated a mere eight natal charts from amongst a potential half a billion and/or one billion natal charts is necessary
I offered some examples and said "I will leave you to judge."
So judge. And I will leave you.
The examples I posted simply illustrate clearly the ancient astrological principles regarding Detriment and Fall AND show that one of the examples you offered i.e. Oprah Winfrey - agrees with those ancient astrological principles regarding Detriment at which you apparently scoff.

[JUPITERASC]

SUN IN FALL EXAMPLES WHO WERE NOT KILLERS/MURDERERS :smile:

Timothy Leary, Libran was the only child of an Irish-American dentist who abandoned his wife Abigail Ferris when Leary was 13. Leary became an American psychologist and writer, known for his advocacy of psychedelic drugs. Leary traveled to Cuernavaca, Mexico with Russo and consumed psilocybin mushrooms for the first time, an experience that drastically altered the course of his life. In 1965, Leary commented that he had "learned more about ... (his) brain and its possibilities ... [and] more about psychology in the five hours after taking these mushrooms than ... in the preceding 15 years of studying and doing research in psychology.


John Sinclair Libran Poet, after a series of convictions for possession of marijuana, Sinclair was sentenced to 10 years in prison in 1969 after giving two joints to an undercover narcotics officer. He served two years before being released. The landmark "John Sinclair Freedom Rally" occurred at Ann Arbor's Crisler Arena in December 1971. The event attracted John Lennon who recorded the song "John Sinclair" on his Some Time in New York City album


John Lennon – a Libran, born in war-time England 9 October 1940 - father Alfred Lennon, merchant seaman was away from home sending regular pay cheques until he went absent without leave in February 1944. He returned home six months later offering to look after the family, Julia – his wife, pregnant with another man's child rejected the idea. Her sister, Mimi Smith, complained to Liverpool's Social Services until Julia handed care of Lennon over to her. July 1946 Lennon's father visited Mimi Smith and took his son to Blackpool, secretly intending to emigrate to New Zealand with him. Julia followed them with her partner, 'Bobby' Dykins - after a heated argument his father forced five-year-old Lennon to choose between them. Lennon twice chose his father, but as his mother walked away, Lennon cried and followed her. It was 20 years before he renewed contact with his father. Lennon enjoyed fame as a musician before being murdered at the age of forty.


A SUN IN DETRIMENT EXAMPLE WHO WAS NOT A MURDERER/KILLER


Peter Adamson – Aquarian – Actor suspended from soap opera Coronation Street after selling stories to a tabloid newspaper. Arrested for alleged indecent assault April 1983. Although cleared of charges, he was sacked from Coronation Street. His drinking and reputation meant acting roles became increasingly rare. He developed osteoarthritis, had surgery for bowel cancer in 1990 and was forced to sell his homes as debts increased. Was declared bankrupt 1991with debts of £32,000. Penniless, the press occasionally visited his rented flat in Welton in Lincolnshire, detailing his fall from fame as he was seen shuffling to his local shops in slippers, buying cut-price food to save cash, hoarding away £5 a week towards his funeral. Adamson died from stomach cancer in Lincoln County Hospital in January 2002.