Alcoholism

[Shining Ray]

My book finally arrived yesterday, An Encyclopedia Of Psychological Astrology. I had thought of buying the book when I read this article (link below) from astrodatabank they were using his method to study alcoholism in the chart. My partner used to be a heavy drinker in the past, and a lot of the astrological indicators matched up to his birth chart. I have posted his chart here with the link for alcoholism in the Natal Chart.

http://www.astrodatabank.com/AS/ASAlcoholism3.htm

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7528/schartct5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

I did a little test and compared my chart to my partners to see the difference in the number of indicators for each chart. As I do have a heavy Neptune chart but have never been an alcoholic or drug user.

Partners Chart and possible Alcoholic tendencies

Moon in Cadent house

Sun Square Neptune

Sun Semi-Square Uranus

Moon Square Mars

Moon in Fire Sign

Neptune in 5th house

Mars inconjunct Neptune

Ruler of 5th house squared by Saturn in a Water Sign

Mercury in fixed 25th degree/Leo

My Chart and possible Alcoholic Tendencies

Sun opposed Saturn

Moon Square Neptune

Moon in a water sign

Ruler of 5th house oppose Sun in a water sign

I am still working out how to use the Semi-Square and the other aspect so there may have been more in the charts. But from this my partner had 9 indications and I had 4 indications according to the astrological rules for alcoholism. My partner then has twice as many aspects, not sure how many indicators would class you as having an addiction to alcohol, but my partner did have a lot more than me and with him being an ex- alcoholic so he should.:D

P.S I am still practicing looking for markers of Alcoholism so I hope I included most of the aspects.

[Belgianmoonguy]

Alcohol a Fire drug?
Never thought of that...

I always thought every drug is associated with the element 'water'
Alcohol i would have associated with Pisces or with persons with afflicted personal planets in Capricorn...

[rahu]

hey ray,
i've worked with a A.A. club for over 10 years and 90% of the alchies had histories of abuse.you might want to look at abuse apects in conjunction with the neptune aspects already noted.go to the thread abuse on this category for a brief list of abusive aspects.
rahu

[Shining Ray]

Hi Rahu,

My partner was abused by his father when he was young, he has told me a couple of stories of his father being violent, and very controlling and wouldn't let any of the children go to bed or rest, no matter how tired they were until they had done all the housework, his kids were his slaves. He treated my partner the worse out of all his children. Even when my partner had grown up he was still controlling him and punched him in the face once, because he wouldn't do what his father said. I never got to meet his dad because he died a few years ago, I wasn't with my partner then. But I can see from his horrible childhood why he used drink to escape from all those memories or at least numb himself to them. My partner has said he has never cried over the death of his father, not one tear, I can't really blame him to be honest, but my boyfriend has Saturn in Cancer so he definitely hides emotions and tries to cover them up. The problem with my partner is he takes on the the responsibility for the whole family, any trouble happens with the family and he puts it on his shoulders to sort out. My partner does have a lot of deeper issues to work through from his past which lead to the drinking. The heavy drinking has stopped now, he only drinks occasionally.

[astro.teacher]

After reading the list of "indicators of Alcoholism" in your post, I am quite suprised to see the neither Venus nor the 5th House linked into drinking. They are major Significators of both food and drink (alcohol traditionally). You will notice that the North Node is in fact in the 5th House, Retrograde and its dispositor is Saturn whos conjunct with the South node AND in opposition of the North Node. To add to this, Venus is in Libra (its home Sign) and appears to be a square to the North Node. If you want excess of alcohol you have it clearly displayed right there for you. I hope that helps you.

[Shining Ray]

Hi Astro Teacher,

The 5th house is linked to alcoholism in the rules for it in the article and my book, and with my partner having Neptune in the 5th and square his chart ruler. Probably has indicated the strong indicaters for alcoholism. The NN in 5th could possibly be an indicater of the drinking. Venus could me more indicative of food indulgence, he can do a lot of things to excess. Food/Alcohol/Work have been his escapist tendencies.

[astro.teacher]

I was making reference to traditional correspondence. Venus is an indicator of pleasure, any type of physical pleasure. Some seek pleasure from sex, some from food, others from alcohol. I normally dont include the outer Planets because much of their significators are found in the inner Planets as for the example I gave in my previous post. :)

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[astro.teacher]

the pleasure procured by alcohol is the fake pleasure---

Theres no such thing as "fake/real" pleasure. The sensations you feel when taking part in certain activities are all considered "pleasure". Sex can be considered "fake pleasure" as well, especially if you believe that true pleasue comes from something spiritual. Food is definately ruled by Venus are you saying that is "fake pleasure" as well?


traditional astrology has never talked on the suject of alcolism as far as i know.

Then you need to crack open the books! Ive read many traditional books and they talk a lot about people addicted to ale houses & etc. Most Astrology texts will tell you is "Food and Drink is ruled by Venus". Drink being an old word meaning alcoholic drink (especially wine and ale).

[Sag Moon]

The 6th\11th Axis Neptune,Venus,Moon all contribute to Alcohol and Drugs IMO.

Saturn can be a reason for using.

[Shining Ray]

Alcohol might be used to suppress the sensitivity of the Neptune person it numbs and desensitises a person, the bottle is often used as a crutch to help them cope with reality they also may be attempting to fill some emptiness they feel inside with drink, when what they really need to do is connect to their true spirit within. All different addictions can be used to cope with life -drugs, overeating, emotional dramas, overspending the list is endless. Strong Neptune people if they use Alcohol or other addictions usually have to learn to surrender the ego's false need (Alcohol), for the their true needs to be met. Having Alcohol/Drugs, is a false way to reach the spirit.

When I used to go out clubbing with my ex partner he used to take ecstasy tablets and other drugs/drink and the atmosphere in the club would feel very strange, I used to feel uncomfortable with it. People with big saucer eyes and a blissed out look on their face, to me it just doesn't look right it looks unnatural. You get hugged by people you don't even know, and they all tell you how wonderful you are, and how much they love you. But it is all the drugs and drink speaking it is a false oneness a false connection of higher feelings of love towards others it is all very fake. I wouldn't call it a natural blissed out feeling, when you are genuinely tranquil and happy or are truly in love. It is definitely a false pleasure especially If you use artificial means like alcohol/food/spending to make you feel happy. I do understand that you wouldn't drink or do drugs if you had no pleasure from it is hard to draw the line you can have pleasure but you can get addicted to the feeling and rely on it to make you feel happy instead of trying to find happiness within yourself.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[astro.teacher]

contrary to what you say, the difference is clear ane evident.
And yet, you dont give me examples of this?

normally i would have invited you to give out some tracks of readings in the concern of alcolism, but i just realized that a "teacher" as you pretend, you could not even tell the difference between "under the sun's beam" and "via combustia" in the classical terms. so it's not worthwhile to ask.
I know the difference between under the beams of the sun and via combusta. Via combusta is when any Planet is between 15 degrees Libra to 15 degrees Scorpio, and under the beams of the Sun is when Planets are within the orb of the Sun and therefore burnt. I suggested on another forum (which I believe you are making reference too) that Via Combusta may make reference to "Under the beams of the Sun" as well because multiple authors state Combustion AND under the beams of the Sun in their writings we can indicate two different things. Finally if you want to try to defile my opinion in a public forum you may want to try spell check, its "Combusta" not "Combustia".

of course "food and drink is ruled by Venus", nobody has contradicted it, but "addition" is not the "food and drinking" in the common sense. your connection is very far-fetched.

Its "far fetched" to say that Venus is the ruler of food and alcohol and it being badly placed in a chart (especially in the 5th House) cant rule over abusing these substances?? Is it further "too far fetched" that it being positively placed as well can lead too the overconsumption of substances? You question my role as an Astrologer, yet I should be questioning yours for saying such a simplistic thing that every astrologer should have a grasp over. And just so you can see exactly what I mean;

"The Moon to the Conjunction, Trine, Sextile of Venus,

Any of these presage a pleasant and happy time unto the Native, inclines him to be jocund, merry and affable, delight in interludes, plays, dancing, pasttimes; wholly addicted to pleasure" - Doc. of Nat. by John Gadburry

He further states the rulership of the 5th;

"To the fifth, happiness from friends, negotiations, writings, messages : he gains by voluptuous courses and company, by drinking, playing at cards and dice."

And another

..."and she Venus, and in the fifth House; then the estate is consumed by drinking and whoring, and such like;"

Far fetched? I dont think so. As for "drink" I suggest you to follow to the 11th and 12th definition here;

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Drink

11.liquor; alcohol.
12.excessive indulgence in alcohol

Please tell me exactly what kind of "drink" the ancients would be refering too besides wine or ale? Water? Alcohol IS the classical sense of the word "drink".

[Sag Moon]

I would think that the Moon rules fluids and food as it is the domestic side of things. Neptune the drowning using a substance as in drown out feeling.
The Moon also rules our daily habits and for most of us we do need to eat and drink daily.

Venus is sensation. It also has to do with overload of the use along with Neptune it's Higher Octave.

There has been research on the subjet ,but nothing has been definative as to strict rules as to who will be or not be an alcoholic,but I think there are indicators that would strongly suggest one to become one. There is always choice adn some like myself have indicators as to be one down to degrees,but I hate alcohol.

Just my thought's.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[archergirl]

Where, oh where, is a forum moderator?

This is supposed to be a *discussion* about natal aspects, not a place to insult others simply because they disagree with you. Now please, could we stick to the subject at hand?

:rolleyes:

[astro.teacher]

Thank you archergirl. I will not be responding to this since Ive already made my case, people can clearly see exactly what I meant and I used examples to prove this. Attacks on my personal self or my studies is quite a low and immature way to argue a debate especially made by some annonymous user. Ill take the high road and cut this discussion right here. If anyone else has concerns about Alcoholism and Astrology ill be sure to discuss them with you.

[Shining Ray]

I have had to post a New Natal Chart for my boyfriend, I have asked him numerous times about his birth time, and he has always said he was born at 4.00am in the morning. He was so sure of it because he remembered his mum telling him he was born at this time. A couple of days ago I got my New Pluto book - but it was the wrong one, the seller off Amazon had sent Pluto the souls evolution through relationships volume 2, I checked the order form and I had put the right order in for Volume 1. Well I decided to keep the book, in the book it describes the composite Pluto for the couple, I asked my partner to double check with his mother about his birth time before I started to read the book (I wished I had asked him to check it before, but he was absolutely certain) he phoned his mother and she gave the 2.10pm time for his birth. I have been reading his chart for the old time for ages. Obviously most of the aspects are the same but he has a new Ascendant now, and all his planets are in different houses. He has quite a few planets in the 9th house now and he does love travelling, he was originally born in Ireland but moved to England when he was about 8 and has moved house a lot. I always thought this was his Uranus in the 4th in the old chart - now I am going to have to work out the meaning of the new houses for his planets. For the Alcoholic study his chart still fits and has high indications of alcoholism according to carter.

It was a big shock a change of chart, because some parts of his old chart fitted him. Like he is very sensitive and I thought his Moon in 12th near the Asc represented this but in his new chart Neptune on the 1st square to Sun shows this too. Uranus in the 4th fitted because of the amount of times he has moved. Although he is very attached to his roots, where he comes from, and he wants to do a family tree to learn all about his background and ancesters maybe this new chart reflects this interest more with Moon in 9th I will have to study this and find out. I am going to have learn to analyse the house placements a lot better. Get more detailed and precise like a Virgo - my North Node :) . It has all been a major headache, I read out his new chart to him and he said it was very accurate, I wished I had read his old chart to him to see whether or not he felt it fitted. Nice slap on the face for my astrology studies.

Here is the New Chart :rolleyes: .


http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/148/boyfriendsnewchartdo0.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Chaldean]

Partners Chart and possible Alcoholic tendencies
Moon in Cadent house
Sun Square Neptune Alcohol i would have associated with Pisces or with persons with afflicted personal planets in Capricorn... Saturn can be a reason for using. Alcohol might be used to suppress the sensitivity of the Neptune person it numbs and desensitises a person, the bottle is often used as a crutch to help them cope with reality they also may be attempting to fill some emptiness they feel inside with drink, when what they really need to do is connect to their true spirit within. All different addictions can be used to cope with life -drugs, overeating, emotional dramas, overspending the list is endless. Strong Neptune people if they use Alcohol or other addictions usually have to learn to surrender the ego's false need (Alcohol), for the their true needs to be met. Having Alcohol/Drugs, is a false way to reach the spirit. "The Moon to the Conjunction, Trine, Sextile of Venus,
Any of these presage a pleasant and happy time unto the Native, inclines him to be jocund, merry and affable, delight in interludes, plays, dancing, pasttimes; wholly addicted to pleasure" - Doc. of Nat. by John Gadburry
Ahhh! I've got my moon in the 12th house (cadent), and it's in capricorn. Plus I've got a capricorn stellium! And my saturn is in the 12th! Neptune is also in the 12th, square my sun! And my moon is trine venus!

Am I going to become addicted to alcohol?:confused::(.

[Yoi]

In order to solve the problem about whether it is Venus or Neptune that is more important why don't we take a number of different charts for either famous alcoholics (just look at the list of movie stars and music stars :) or alcoholics we know and see whether they have similarities in Venus and/or Neptune that could explain their alcoholism?

[Sag Moon]

I have read articles also that associate degrees to addictive tendencies. I know that 24Deg. Sag and 7Deg. Scorpio are amongst them as I have them both.

24Deg. Sag turned up numerous times in my research for those addicted to alcohol or drugs.

The most notable of these in recent times was GIA the model .Jimi Hendrix ,Janis Joplin and Beethoven all had this degree highlighted in their charts.

7Degree Scorpio was mentioned in a book about murderer's and Jeffery Dahmer had it. I have bith of these degrees in my chart and have been accused of being an alcoholic,but rarely drink. My DOC was always cannabis ,but I gave that up.
I have always had trouble sleeping and need to take things for that.

At the moment I am experiencing severe back pain so I am taking something for that,but will end that I hope within a few days.

I take nothing for depression or PTSD.

The suggestion of looking at notable Movie Stars is a good one.

I would suggest study of AN Smth ,Montgomery Clift, Spencer Tracy, M.Monroe etc.

There is much to Marylin Monroe's chart that can lead t indicators like Neptune rising and planets in her 8th leading to her death.

Spencer Tracy & Monty Clift were both excessive users of drnk.

Looking at Monty Clift's chart just now Moon 24Sag. I am glad that I don't like alcohol!! Just a few beers and I get a hangover.I inherited that trait from my mother.

Monty Clift suffered from severe shyness. he had Pisces prominent.

No one has mentioned Jupiter,but it usually indicates excessiveness when indulging in food & drink also.

[lillyjgc]

Thankyou for the link. My mother is an alcoholic. She has pisces asc and sun sag. There are two yods in her chart- one points to the sun in the 9th (which is also square neptune,(H6), conjunct the S.node and square her asc. -her health is affected adversely by her drinking.)On the lunar side of things, her moon is in watery cancer, cj. (retrograde) mars in watery cancer also.Her moon is sextile to Jupiter(cj chiron),square to uranus (she is a <nasty> drunk) and sextile to neptune (she likes to drink).Her mars is opposite venus (in saturns sign-cap). Saturn is inconjunct pluto and square her asc. Her H5 cusp is cancer and venus opposes this cusp..
In my experience pisces plays a big role in alcoholic's charts-esp when moon in or asc. ("drinks like a fish????"). Its hard to consider neptune NOT being a key player...as alcohol creates a blurred fog not unlike a neptune transit!Also
as the REASONS people drink are numerous it would be possible to identify alcoholic tendencies in the natal chartand then look to other aspects to account for the individual making a choice to drink..(whether a subconscious <coping> mechanism or indeed sheer over-indulgence without restraint-a weak saturn? or even an over emphasis on venus. One alcoholic I know has several trines to her venus- she likes to over-indulge. I also think the lights on or near the sth node show some fated <lesson> in regard to controlling the desire nature. Just my two cents worth. lillyjgc

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[Sag Moon]

Bill Wilson aka Bill W. founder of AA

11\26\1895
E.Dorsett VT.
73W 43:15n
3am
asc 17Libra

[sara31tx]

I wish I Knew what my dad and his parents and grandparents time of births were. His brother is also a alcholic. The majority of my dad's family are Alcholic's. I do know that my Dad was born August 4th 1953.(Leo) His parent's were both born on March 25th. They were both Aries. I am not sure about his great-grandparent's. His brother ws born the same day my mom was Oct.3(Libra). My mom will not touch alcohol, she cannot stand the taste. Since my uncle and my mom share the same birthday, I am assuming that the sun sign has nothing to do with it. It would have to be something else in the chart. My chart mentions a problem with addictions. I know that addictions can mean anything. I have never had a real addiction that I could not kick. I smoked and when I was ready I quit. I was drinking alot of coffee and quit that 6 months ago. I think growing up with a alcoholic really makes you see what it is that you do not want to be.

[deanna]

Greetings !

The astodatabank site has information about research done on Alcoholism and using a control group. Very interesting stuff.

There are 4 parts. Here is the link to the first part.

http://www.astrodatabank.com/AS/ASAlcoholism1.htm

Here is some brief info from the site:

The top factor that was found in the study was:
Sun or moon squ, opp, semi-squ, inca nd sesqui Mars, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto.

Also check the persons for tendencies to overindulge by looking at Jupiter.

Also a powerful but negetive Neptune can see and deal effectively with the truth but it is a painful struggle often met with indifference.


Best Regards,

--De

[unique-earthling]

Alcohol dependence is associated with the ZNF699 gene.


There has been a suggestion that the irish as with the American Indians have a gene that makes them more susceptable to hooking onto alcohol, it is a poison to them, and it has been well documented we humans can become addicted to certain foods and drink that are actually no good for us. Also of course dependancy is also associated with childhood experiences detrimental to our psychi. As far as astrological influences are concerned i cannot comment as i dont know.

Les

[Shining Ray]

Just digging up old posts like a grave digger, but what I have noticed is quite a few celebrities who have Mercury/Neptune are on drugs myself excluded of course :p . I am wondering what the deeper connection is here. Amy winehouse, Anna Nicole Smith, a famous writer who's name I cannot remember has an alcohol addiction, other celebrities have died of a drug overdose also have this aspect. Maybe the connection is not that significant but it does seem to be prominent.

[freedomlover]

Just digging up old posts like a grave digger, but what I have noticed is quite a few celebrities who have Mercury/Neptune are on drugs myself excluded of course :p . I am wondering what the deeper connection is here. Amy winehouse, Anna Nicole Smith, a famous writer who's name I cannot remember has an alcohol addiction, other celebrities have died of a drug overdose also have this aspect. Maybe the connection is not that significant but it does seem to be prominent.

Also check the persons for tendencies to overindulge by looking at Jupiter.

Also a powerful but negetive Neptune can see and deal effectively with the truth but it is a painful struggle often met with indifference.
Yes, one of the biggest loves of my life is a very old soul with lots of kindness and wisdom - but can't cope with this world very well - escapes through alcoholism.

He has a tight Mercury(r)/Neptune conjunction (1*orb) in Scorpio in an intercepted 11th house. Mercury rules his 7th and 9th houses. Neptune rules his 3rd. Jupiter rules his Ascendant, and it is in the 1st, in Capricorn.


(Also, has strong Scotch/Irish descent. His father was a raging alcoholic, as well, although not nearly as advanced a soul.)

What would seem to be the psychological factors inherent in these placements?

[CarrieLee]

Hi there I am just curious I am only an intermediate astrologer,could you please elaborate on why the alcoholism link to Capricorn...I am extremely curious I used to work in detox/rehab and I was shocked at the amount of Capricorns in my care...Thank you in advance...My mom also a Cappy recovering alcoholic and she was BAD..

[Ekim86]

A badly afflicted moon is deffenitly a prime indecation of alcohol abuse. Probably first and foremost. Then I would say a strong neptune and planets in the 5th. Possibly even planets in the 12th or alot of pisces influence.

[Claire19]

My book finally arrived yesterday, An Encyclopedia Of Psychological Astrology. I had thought of buying the book when I read this article (link below) from astrodatabank they were using his method to study alcoholism in the chart. My partner used to be a heavy drinker in the past, and a lot of the astrological indicators matched up to his birth chart. I have posted his chart here with the link for alcoholism in the Natal Chart.

http://www.astrodatabank.com/AS/ASAlcoholism3.htm

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7528/schartct5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

I did a little test and compared my chart to my partners to see the difference in the number of indicators for each chart. As I do have a heavy Neptune chart but have never been an alcoholic or drug user.

Partners Chart and possible Alcoholic tendencies

Moon in Cadent house
Sun Square Neptune
Sun Semi-Square Uranus
Moon Square Mars
Moon in Fire Sign
Neptune in 5th house
Mars inconjunct Neptune
Ruler of 5th house squared by Saturn in a Water Sign
Mercury in fixed 25th degree/Leo
My Chart and possible Alcoholic Tendencies

Sun opposed Saturn
Moon Square Neptune
Moon in a water sign
Ruler of 5th house oppose Sun in a water sign
I am still working out how to use the Semi-Square and the other aspect so there may have been more in the charts. But from this my partner had 9 indications and I had 4 indications according to the astrological rules for alcoholism. My partner then has twice as many aspects, not sure how many indicators would class you as having an addiction to alcohol, but my partner did have a lot more than me and with him being an ex- alcoholic so he should.:D

P.S I am still practicing looking for markers of Alcoholism so I hope I included most of the aspects.

Dont bother with any semi squares they are minor aspects and dont tell much. I only use them if they are exact and prominent in sign or house.

Alcoholism belongs to Neptune, 12th house. any Moon connections there especially with water signs Scorpio and Cancer. Basically the water element when in challenging aspect. Neptune connected to Sun in Water also. The moon aspects denote the disease and it is a disease, coming genetically from the mother and with the Sun, from the father.

I have Mars Venus conjunct Neptune in a water house and Pisces rising and never had a problem with drugs or alcohol because of a Saturn sextile. Saturn will give discipline and caution. Pluto can enable you to overcome and transform if used wisely. I have a sextile to Venus Mars Neptune from Pluto, that is the only way I can discern why it is not a problem for me.

[Gwenyhfair]

This discussion has been on and off on several communities,i different languages(countries).

I am a neptunian person with moon in pisces. I am a troubled soul. Between the age of about 18 - 30 I drank a lot. To forget, to be numb, to get out of myself. When I was sober I either worked or did so much sports I had no time to reflect about anything. All my best friends were actually drink buddies, even my partner. And when I realized that some years after 30 I slowly began to cut off the abuse. Today I drink almost never and I know it IS bad for me.

In my chart I´d say I have most of the traits that could indicate abuse. I´ve had three close friends who are alcoholix. I know some persons who have this sports-workaholic-drink too much at weekends-syndrome. That´s some kind of addiction too. Actually I can think of two men who have their personal planets in Via Combusta with this addiction, it means they are always "on the run" and never really present.

But on this other forum these things were listed as indicators (most people said they know alcoholics with these natal positions)

mars or moon in Pisces or leo
Sun or Asc in pisces or virgo (virgo especially for men)
afflicted neptune, neptune rising

In this forum venus was never mentioned.

The alcoholics I know all have the above mentioned OR personal planets in Via combusta.

[charmvirgo]

Of the addictive or alcoholic and escapist possibilities mentioned in this thread I have the following:

Sun in Virgo (female)
Strongly placed Venus, indicator of pleasure seeking (in own sign)
A planet at 7 Scorpio - Neptune (conj MC)
A planet at 24 Sag -Jupiter (expansion) and afflicted by opp to Moon
Strongly placed Jupiter in own sign
A planet in house 12 - Jupiter
Afflicted Moon - opp Jupiter 24 Sag
Moon in 6th a cadent house and conj Cancer/water sign cusp (1 degree orb)
Like Shining Ray's boyfriend I have Sun in 9th(Jupiter and Moon are both afflicted by a square aspect to my Virgo ruler Mercury and Moon is conj Mars.)

I have never been able to stand the taste of alcohol. I can manage one glass of champagne once a year at christmas if it is of high quality and I can just stand the taste of that.

At school I was pressured by two friends into smoking cigarettes but gave that up so easily when I left there. I never liked it.

Also with school friends I even a few times tried smoking a little heroin, which felt nice but I did not 'need' or crave it, nor have the mentality to be addicted to it. It was just experimentation as teenagers do.

My doctor gives me Valium if I want and some sleeping tablets because I am very nervous and suffer from depression / anxiety and I don't sleep well. But I don't take them or like them, I just collect them (as a way out maybe?). They don't work anyway, because I still feel nervous / don't stay asleep!

My DOC is cannabis which I do like and I smoke that on its own in a small pipe because it helps me sleep and 'takes the edge off'. But I can easily go without for long periods and anyway, it is too expensive. However I do always come back to it, so maybe it is an addiction.
I read that this is the DOC for Saturnian types and I have Saturn in 1st.

I overindulge in chocolate or sweets sometimes and they have to be high quality and luxurious. But generally I don't overeat.

I can find spending money hard to control when I decide I want something, like astro software, electrical items, new technology, DVD's, or things for the home. I can be very impulsive that way, even if I can't afford it or have overspent and I am tempted to spend money on luxury foods as well.
But there are things I consider to be a waste of money, like jewellery, clothes or shoes (I only wear practical items and spend as little as possible on them) and I never wear make up. I always walk rather than pay fares, unless it is further than an hour each way.

[hiimnotcool]

This discussion has been on and off on several communities,i different languages(countries).

I am a neptunian person with moon in pisces. I am a troubled soul. Between the age of about 18 - 30 I drank a lot. To forget, to be numb, to get out of myself. When I was sober I either worked or did so much sports I had no time to reflect about anything. All my best friends were actually drink buddies, even my partner. And when I realized that some years after 30 I slowly began to cut off the abuse. Today I drink almost never and I know it IS bad for me.

In my chart I´d say I have most of the traits that could indicate abuse. I´ve had three close friends who are alcoholix. I know some persons who have this sports-workaholic-drink too much at weekends-syndrome. That´s some kind of addiction too. Actually I can think of two men who have their personal planets in Via Combusta with this addiction, it means they are always "on the run" and never really present.

But on this other forum these things were listed as indicators (most people said they know alcoholics with these natal positions)

mars or moon in Pisces or leo
Sun or Asc in pisces or virgo (virgo especially for men)
afflicted neptune, neptune rising

In this forum venus was never mentioned.

The alcoholics I know all have the above mentioned OR personal planets in Via combusta.


Very interesting about the last bit of information you gave. I have Mars in Leo, and Moon in Pisces. Plus my Sun is in Virgo (male). I definitely tend to count on alcohol because it helps me feel good about things. I don't drink all the time but I do enjoy it. I've tried to get a good grasp on it because I know it's not good for me. I definitely have an addictive personality so need to keep things in check. My Sun trines Neptune, and Neptune sextiles Moon so maybe that helps a little bit.

[MarieCamery]

YES that is so true!!! Unfortunatly for someone who needs to watch two children and has been know to fall asleep:( The moon in his chart is leo. The chart ruler neptune, pisces asc. I think Jupiter may be in the 12th house as well, it fits better there. Oh no Neptune and the moon also have a square to each other and other hard aspects there. I am definatly looking for another babysitter!!!

Marie

[Nexus7]

I once came across a book called 'astrology and alcoholism' by one Ann Parker, though I did not buy it.

It suggested that there is a cluster of personality difficulties, possibly genetic too, that can predispose someone towards alcoholism, including a certain need for stimulation, called the 'alcoholic signature.' Neptune does figure, but the 'blame' is also put at the door of Moon-Uranus aspects, amongst one or two other possible 'culprits.' Jack London's chart was looked at certainly for clues to these alcoholic signatures, possibly Malcolm Lowry's too.

It is probably not in print now, but you never know with Amazon, if anyone is interested...

A very old and good friend of mine is an alcoholic and to be honest, if I were to see the chart, I would not necessarily have gleaned alcoholism from it. Ceres is rising in Leo, Venus opposes the Ascendant, South Node in the 1st is in Leo. Mars and Pluto in hard aspect to Moon also, and yes, her mother does rather sound like the mother than hell and certainly at the very least verbally abusive, to all her children from the sound of it, regardless of Moon positions in each case.

What I do see here is someone who 'has' to be happy at all costs, where it is Christmas every day and that can be such a dangerous route to take, if there is a lot of unhappiness to begin with. I think

Watching this is getting more disturbing, as now I can really see it as a disease process. This friend of mine is not unable to stop drinking, as this can kill, whilst someone recounted to me a tale about a famous Hungarian actor who did die, after stopping altogether - the body couldn't tolerate such a rapid withdrawal. Apparently, the actor in question drank because her parents had totally rejected her and her neediness always drove her partners away. I don't know the birth data in this case, though.

I don't know where there is just a drinking problem to begin with, and where 'alcoholism' begins. My father certainly has had a big problem with drink and sometimes I have thought it is a way of getting in touch with anger and hostile feelings: Libra Midheaven, but an Aries Moon and a Mars-Neptune conjunction square Venus.

The UK is perceived abroad as a nation of alcoholics - certainly in Italy, maybe not so in Hungary, nor I daresay in Poland or Russia, where heavy drinking is also part of the culture. The UK has that Pisces Moon, don't know about these other two countries.

What is disturbing then is that drinking can implicate a whole culture - the UK does seem to keep on having a problem with drinking, and with drugs - first, Victorian Mother's Ruin, now, happy hours and ecstasy, along with all he social problems.

Then too, someone kindly handed me a leaflet from al-anon at a festival here, full of the characteristics of the children of alcoholics. Some of these did not ring true for me at all, whilst others did evince the odd wince...my own Venus square Neptune.

Anyway, that is something else worth considering - the way that for every one alcoholic, there may be at least 4 other people who are being affected by the way that person's drinking.

[waybread]

Hi there I am just curious I am only an intermediate astrologer,could you please elaborate on why the alcoholism link to Capricorn...I am extremely curious I used to work in detox/rehab and I was shocked at the amount of Capricorns in my care...Thank you in advance...My mom also a Cappy recovering alcoholic and she was BAD..

I have a handbook on rulerships (Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book, published by the American Fedderation of Astrologers.) He gives alcoholism to Neptune and Pisces, and secondarily to Mars.

One way to look at this is that Neptune loves transcendance and illusions. Yet Neptune has a "trickster" side, in that its reverse face is disillusionment. Squaring the sun, Neptune can seemingly prod people to take another drink or pop another pill, in the hope of escaping reality, or finding the bliss of transcending it. Well, if substances are addictive, then escape from the substance may not be easily achieved.

I work a lot with the planets that rule signs on house cusps (so-called accidental rulers), so, for example, someone with the sun in Pisces (1/12 of the population) won't necessarily be an alcoholic, but if Neptune rules the Pisces sun' house, and Neptune is afflicted, you might find a comparable pattern.

I think the 5th house rules amusements, which would include drinking as a kind of entertainment or pleasureable activity. So this wouldn't necessarily indicate an alcoholic without other activities.

Capricorn is an interesting case, because they are often extremely self-disciplined. Yet if Capricorn is the sign on the cusp of their sun's house and Saturn is afflicted then they probably will feel keenly Saturn's sense of inadequacy, frustration, and limitation. Here, i would imagine someone drinking to dull feelings of low self-esteem.

So maybe not all alcoholics have the same route to their habit.

[Kingsley]

Capricorns can tend to be hard on themselves. The inner speak for the Capricorns is "get to work" "you are only ok if you work hard" etc. The hard and relentless - traditional Father has left his prescence in the early development of the Capricorn infant. Perhaps Dad was always at work and the child didnt think he was important enough? Unless that is, he went to work and worked hard.

Over time, maintaining this kind of driver in life the person becomes detached from who they really are, the other points in their chart that beg creativity and expression in the light of following the traditional Fathers "demands". Drinking is a way of disconnecting the driver messages to work or try hard. The Capricorn person feels free from that personality script after a drink. After a while they are drinking a bottle of scotch a night.

That is one story about Capricorns and drinking. Its ok for a Cappy to do things their own way and listen to their own needs in life.

kingsley

[Shining Ray]

I have a lot of Neptune but haven't been addicted to any substance. The U.K has been known for drinking although I blame it on all the brits going abroad to Spain, drinking and making a show of us as a nation, those lager louts lol. My partner's Irish and they are known for their drinking and bad tempers, and his family are like this, genetics still playing a part. We all get labelled with certain traits as countries it might have to do with the Birth Chart of the particular place. Like America has Sagittarius rising, and they come across as larger than life and everything is done in a BIG way by over exaggerating, like the hysterical screams over the new president lol (madness, I thought they found the new Jesus the way some of them reacted) maybe my Sun/Saturn is too serious and I am underestimating this whole event :p in years to come I may understand all the hype, but I hate the way we all have to follow America's lead all the time. It's like their the centre of the world lol. Although they have the best fun parks I will definitely visit there. :D

Back to topic I agree drinking is genetic and often if a child has an alcoholic father which may be symbolized by Sun/Neptune the child struggles with same need to include Neptune in the personality and struggles with the need to escape, or feeling lost but the parent may have not been the best role model when it comes to facing lifes struggles and any hardships would have caused them to escape rather than face the problem. The person often has to find another outlet for Neptune rather than just the drink.

[CarrieLee]

Thank you Kingsley for such a beautiful answer to my question this makes perfect sense... I really appreciate your answer :)

[Claire19]

Alcohol a Fire drug?
Never thought of that...

I always thought every drug is associated with the element 'water'
Alcohol i would have associated with Pisces or with persons with afflicted personal planets in Capricorn...

Mars inconjunct Neptune is a classic addiction aspect. It denotes health issues and alcoholism is a genetic and physical disease as well as mental.
It doese belong to the water planets and water signs, yes. Also 12th house.

[Claire19]

YES that is so true!!! Unfortunatly for someone who needs to watch two children and has been know to fall asleep:( The moon in his chart is leo. The chart ruler neptune, pisces asc. I think Jupiter may be in the 12th house as well, it fits better there. Oh no Neptune and the moon also have a square to each other and other hard aspects there. I am definatly looking for another babysitter!!!

Marie

I agree and you are lucky to have the insights of astrological charts to be able to see the dangers in those looking after your children.

There is enough to cause alarm and good luck with the next babysitter.

[VENUS]

neptune conj MC= alcoholic/drug user...or musically/artistic inclined profession

my ex was an alcoholic and he had neptune rising

noticed moon/neptune (hard aspects) like to escape with alcohol, drugs

neptune in the 3rd (hard aspects) as well.

[MarieCamery]

I may have found a good sitter yesterday, I just met her though,don't know her chart either, but I have a better feeling about her. She told me outright she doesn't drink or smoke. As far as my loving husband (yes, my prevoius babysitter on the weekends) He is a good guy but I know he nods off , even sleepwalks at times(even when he doesn't drink) so I am changing my schedule. He is a very hardworker (mars in 6th ,Sun saturn conj), he works all week, so I give him the benefit of the doubt, let him have the weekends off.
Marie

[Claire19]

Alcohol a Fire drug?
Never thought of that...

I always thought every drug is associated with the element 'water'
Alcohol i would have associated with Pisces or with persons with afflicted personal planets in Capricorn...

Yes Neptune, Pisces, 12th house, Cancer, Moon and sometimes Scorpio and Pluto for alcoholism. Not fire or other element. Although Capricorn is associated with alcohol and can be collectors, it is the maturing and ageing of vintage wines that attract more. The keeping of cellars underground etc. The connection with agriculture and farming......

[Claire19]

Capricorns can tend to be hard on themselves. The inner speak for the Capricorns is "get to work" "you are only ok if you work hard" etc. The hard and relentless - traditional Father has left his prescence in the early development of the Capricorn infant. Perhaps Dad was always at work and the child didnt think he was important enough? Unless that is, he went to work and worked hard.

Over time, maintaining this kind of driver in life the person becomes detached from who they really are, the other points in their chart that beg creativity and expression in the light of following the traditional Fathers "demands". Drinking is a way of disconnecting the driver messages to work or try hard. The Capricorn person feels free from that personality script after a drink. After a while they are drinking a bottle of scotch a night.

That is one story about Capricorns and drinking. Its ok for a Cappy to do things their own way and listen to their own needs in life.

kingsley

I would say that has to be other watery aspects for the alcoholism to develop. Sure Cap likes a drink to unwind from their work and their drive to reach the top and gain authority and respect...... which can place heavy demands on them and sometimes expectations from the father image. But Capricorn and Saturn are basically disciplined, conservative and proper behaviour type of influences rather.

[Claire19]

I have Neptune ruling my chart and it is in the 8th house of obsessions conjunct Venus and dont drink or have any drug habits at all. This I feel is because of the sextile to Saturn which gives me caution and discipline. I have a drink very occasionally on special occasions but can take it or leave it.

[Kingsley]

There are many reasons for alcoholism Claire. One doesnt need to be a caparicorn person to give themself a hard time with regard to achievements.

Seeing as we were talking about the "Capricorn" astrology sign and the emphasis on the Sun placement there are many other factors we have not discussed in the thread.

The Capricorn Sun in the persons chart represents the Father's role modelling and that part of ones identity they express in their own way. There are many Dads who might be represented by the Cappy Sun and their sense of boundaries, work ethics and authoritory impart very good values to a person.

kingsley

[Summery Joy]

Hmmm,

I haven't read the whole thread since it's quite long. But I did scan through a number of posts and it seems to me that the thread could also be entitled "escapism" since a lot of the info in here describe how and why people tend to escape reality. Alcohol is one means of doing that. Food is another, and so is workaholism.

A lot of good insights, especially for me with the Moon in the 12th and Neptune Rx being the most aspected planet in my chart.

Nora :)
(formerly known as sorehearted)

[freedomlover]

Yes, one of the biggest loves of my life is a very old soul with lots of kindness and wisdom - but can't cope with this world very well - escapes through alcoholism.

He has a tight Mercury(r)/Neptune conjunction (1*orb) in Scorpio in a duplicated 11th house. Mercury rules his 7th and 9th houses. Neptune rules his 3rd. Jupiter rules his Sag Ascendant, and it is in the 1st, in Capricorn. Also, the Mercury(r)/Neptune conjunction in Scorp/duplicated 11th is loosely sextile (6*) his Ascendant ruler, Jupiter in Cap, in 1st.


(Also, has strong Scotch/Irish descent. His father was a raging alcoholic, as well, although not nearly as advanced a soul.)

What would seem to be the psychological factors inherent in these placements?
It's been over 2 months, so I thought I'd give it a bump. No one ever replied to this. How would one interpret the psychological factors, etc as described by the houses Mercury/Neptune rules? In other words, what do all the placements I described have to do with his drinking?

[Lin]

Genetics, shame and guilt. Exhaust these possibilities in any person's life when studying addiction.

People use alcohol and drugs to dull their emotions. WHY they do this is in every chart of every alcoholic. In fact, probably 9 out of 10 people are addicted to something, because we all have a Neptune.... and Neptune's job is to anihiliate us... to make us into pure spirt.... to destroy our bodies. And it uses every sneaky method to do this.

It will lie to us, make us lie to others and to ourselves. Neptune is the "great lie."

Bill W.s chart, as I remember it, is VERY interesting to study.
LIN

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Sounds like someone thinks Neptune is a malefic too!

I don't have time to read all of these posts, but will do soon. But I browsed through the study and was wondering if they publish how many charts they looked at, how accurate birth times were, what age range or birth locations they included (as variant birth times and places could effect generational signs and aspects, and locations might affect houses and house systems?) .

And then based on that, what the statistical chance of a person having any one of those signatures was. Knowing that might make these signatures more or less powerful. More powerful if the non-alcoholics have statistically lower numbers of signatures. Less powerful if the laws of statistics dictate that the differences in the study aren't above chance. I'm not good at math so I can't figure it out myself.

[waybread]

Genetics, shame and guilt. Exhaust these possibilities in any person's life when studying addiction.

People use alcohol and drugs to dull their emotions. WHY they do this is in every chart of every alcoholic. In fact, probably 9 out of 10 people are addicted to something, because we all have a Neptune.... and Neptune's job is to anihiliate us... to make us into pure spirt.... to destroy our bodies. And it uses every sneaky method to do this.

It will lie to us, make us lie to others and to ourselves. Neptune is the "great lie."

Bill W.s chart, as I remember it, is VERY interesting to study.
LIN

I am a great fan of choice-centered astrologer Steven Forrest. He sees every planet as having two natures: the "teacher" and the "trickster." People with difficult aspects from Neptune to a personal planet, notably to one's sun, are likely to experience the "trickster" face of Neptune, who operates as Lin described. Spirituality can offer Neptunian escapism, as most cult leaders who turned out to be frauds have exemplified. Forrest wrote that no planet is in our chart just to hurt us.

People with challenging aspects from Neptune may be able to learn from the "teacher" but they will have to work at it and make conscious choices.

But a well-aspected Neptune, or a Neptune construed as "the teacher" can confer artistic ability (esp. in harmonious aspect to Venus) and a healthy, productive spirituality.

I think Neptune deals in the realm of transcendence. Sometimes ordinary dirt-and-bugs reality isn't good enough for Neptunians. An alcoholic buzz can be a transcendent experience.

Neptune dissolves what it touches. Good for creative types, who need to create an imaginative world. Not so good if squaring Saturn in your "money house."

Neptune deals with illusions and disillusionment. The fantastic drug high followed by horrible withdrawal symptoms. The romance that seemed too good to be true--and was.

But without Neptune, how could we enjoy a Harry Potter book, the music of Debussy, or impressionistic art? That glass of cabernet would lose its magic, and the lit candles would just be bits of fire on top of wax sticks that drip on the tablecloth.
---------
Freedom Lover, can you post the chart? I find the verbal description hard to visualize, and we don't know what else might be going on.

[Lin]

Neptune IS the dissolver. Dissolve something and then tell me where it is. It's "gone."

Neptune rules "oblivion." Think about it. The more powerful Neptune is in a chart, the more Neptunian a person is. What does it mean to be "Neptunian?"

Neptune rules delusion, confusion, obsession, fear, phobia, escapism, denial, self-deception, the "con", hallucinations, religious fanaticism, martyrism, hyper-sensitivity (for better or worse), distortion of fact or reality, lying, drug, alcohol and behavioral addiction, oblivion, living a lie, and, with Pluto connections, "co-dependence."

Yes, it also rules creativity, idealism, compassion, talent and appreciation of art and music, imagination and selflessness....
but....
in order for the best of Neptune to be front and center, there has to be great balance in the chart. And, as we know, even great artists of all types have been ultimate victims of Neptune.

No... the only weapon we have against Neptune is Pluto is.... ultimate consciousness and truth. Being scrupulously honest with ones self and others.

Hypervigilance. I've known myriad addicts in my life and astrological career. I've seen people 10 to 20 years clean and sober go down the tubes in one day of forgetting....(a Neptunian word) their need for vigilance.

If there is a metaphorical devil, it's name is Neptune.
It IS the Christ and the anti-christ. It's not for nothing that Pisces opposite is Virgo.... mind.... and hypervigilance.
LIN

[gaer]

But without Neptune, how could we enjoy a Harry Potter book, the music of Debussy, or impressionistic art? That glass of cabernet would lose its magic, and the lit candles would just be bits of fire on top of wax sticks that drip on the tablecloth.

That made me smile. :)

[freedomlover]

Waybread said:

Freedom Lover, can you post the chart? I find the verbal description hard to visualize, and we don't know what else might be going on.
Will do.:)


Yes, one of the biggest loves of my life is a very old soul with lots of kindness and wisdom - but can't cope with this world very well - escapes through alcoholism.

He has a tight Mercury(r)/Neptune conjunction (1*orb) in Scorpio in a duplicated 11th house. Mercury rules his 7th and 9th houses. Neptune rules his 3rd. Jupiter rules his Sag Ascendant, and it is in the 1st, in Capricorn. Also, the Mercury(r)/Neptune conjunction in Scorp/duplicated 11th is loosely sextile (6*) his Ascendant ruler, Jupiter in Cap, in 1st.


How would one interpret the psychological factors, etc as described by the houses Mercury/Neptune rules? In other words, what do all the placements I described have to do with his drinking?
View Chart of Friend with Alcoholism (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l120/freedomlover65/astro_2gw_30_male_hr8337121726.gif)
(Click on image to enlarge)

Thanks alot, Waybread! Hopefully you and maybe some others, too, can give me some insight with this.

FL

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Neptune dissolves what it touches. Good for creative types, who need to create an imaginative world. Not so good if squaring Saturn in your "money house."



I hope this isn't speaking from personal experience Waybread. If so, the drinks are on me :cheers:

I think Neptune is the god of Aesthetic Transcendence, which has many inherently good qualities but is fundamentally humanist. It is about learning to love ourselves, and create our own emotional ideals.

But Spiritual Transcendance, I think that comes from Pluto or Jupiter, or at any rate not Neptune. Spiritual Transcendance is about accepting and loving anything, about the truth, in all its bitter and harsh reality. So the romantic candle is of equal worth to the dripping wax with fire and an increasingly stuffy and carbon dioxide filled room in it. Both are sources of wonder, pain, and ultimately perception/ reality.

Neptune cannot help but romanticise, glamourise, sentimentalise, and pastiche itself. In many ways it is fundamentally looking at itself, which in a way is almost a mirror to the ego.

So in that way, maybe Neptune does have Leo and Piscean tendencies, and the humanist association would fit in with the Aquarian polarity.

[waybread]

Really interesting insights, everyone!

Lin, thanks for your poetic and insightful deliniation of Neptune as "trickster". Yet I think Steven Forrest is right: no planet is in our charts just to hurt us.

Interesting to think about Pluto as the "antidote" to Neptune. Pluto deals with ruthless honesty, but the Neptune/Pluto sextile is so common that it is hard to know what to make of these planets' relationship. I would have suggested that Saturn is the antidote to a dysfunctional Neptune. I no longer think of Saturn as a malefic, but as Dr. Reality Check. But maybe a lot depends upon the individual chart.

Sundance, I have Neptune in the first house, which I have read about, correctly in my case, as conferring a kind of life-long identity crisis. But the older I get, the less troublesome this becomes, whether due to more life experience or a more outer-directed focus, I am not sure. Neptune squares Jupiter in my 4th, so I sometimes think my luck dissolves, but actually, I think I have had an OK life, all and all. So I see this aspect as indicating biting off more than I can chew--thinking I can do more (Jupiter=expansion) than I really can or will. Arguably Neptune makes a couple of very wide trines in my chart, but others would see themn as out-of-orb. In terms of drugs or alcohol, I don't do the former; and we have wine with dinner. So I don't see Neptune as quite so wretched in my life. Thankfully, he's left my 2nd house relatively stable.

In conventional astrology, Jupiter rules conventional religion and theology; Saturn rules ecclesiastical authority, and Neptune rules mysticism--but of the other-worldly variety. I think it is all too rare to find religious, spiritual, or mystical people who don't try to isolate themselves from society, but who plunge themselves into the real world, warts and all. But that was surely the message of Jesus and the goal of some faith-based organizations today.

freedomlover, it is hard for me to see alcoholism in your friend's chart. Neptunian, sure, with that wide Neptune/Mercury/sun conjunction. But Neptune really isn't badly aspected. One thing I note is that you used Regiomontanus houses: and in any of the common house systems except whole-sign and equal house, as you know, one can get intercepted and duplicate houses. I find the problem of intercepted houses really interesting. The first thing I looked for was the house that Neptune rules, but he's got Pisces intercepted. Then, of course, his Pluto/NN/PofF in Virgo in the 9th are intercepted as well. These can be entities in his life that just don't get a lot of "traction."

People drink for different reasons. Alcoholism is an addiction, so once people start for whatever reason, they may be unable to stop without a fairly fairly serious intervention like a residential treatment program. Has your friend ever said why he drinks?

With Uranus square sun, he may drink just to relieve the pressure.

I am not at all intuitive r psychic--but I just happened to wonder. If your friend is, indeed, an old soul, could it be that he has a kind of mission or destiny that frightens him, and that he tries to ignore by drinking?

[freedomlover]

freedomlover, it is hard for me to see alcoholism in your friend's chart. Neptunian, sure, with that wide Neptune/Mercury/sun conjunction. But Neptune really isn't badly aspected. One thing I note is that you used Regiomontanus houses: and in any of the common house systems except whole-sign and equal house, as you know, one can get intercepted and duplicate houses. I find the problem of intercepted houses really interesting. The first thing I looked for was the house that Neptune rules, but he's got Pisces intercepted. Then, of course, his Pluto/NN/PofF in Virgo in the 9th are intercepted as well. These can be entities in his life that just don't get a lot of "traction."

People drink for different reasons. Alcoholism is an addiction, so once people start for whatever reason, they may be unable to stop without a fairly fairly serious intervention like a residential treatment program. Has your friend ever said why he drinks?

With Uranus square sun, he may drink just to relieve the pressure.

I am not at all intuitive r psychic--but I just happened to wonder. If your friend is, indeed, an old soul, could it be that he has a kind of mission or destiny that frightens him, and that he tries to ignore by drinking?
Thanks so much for replying, Waybread. I always value your insights.

The reason I used Regiomontanus houses ( instead of the usual Placidus) is because Lilith shows up in the 8th in Regio, vs 7th in Placidus. The description of Lilith in the 8th seemed to fit him far better. Also Chiron in Aquarius shows up on cusp of third with Regio. That seems to fit him ever so much better than in the 2nd house. Everything else in the charts remains pretty much the same, including the intercepted houses.

Yes, I know a very big reason he drinks. He had an NDE when he was younger after a motorcycle accident. Ever since then he has been extremely psychic ( he was pretty much already ) and also has had a case of social anxiety/PTSD that has gotten steadily worse over the years. His father died, and he returned home to live with his mother and take care of the family home and land. About this same time, he was struck with a bad case of environmental poisoning. This took him years to recover from (of course a lot longer since he was drinking). The combination of being so sick and the ever-increasing PTSD/social anxiety kept him pretty confined to his home - with his mother.

His mother has a stellium in Sagittarius and is a controlling, religious zealot. He is very "New Age" in beliefs and also has a lot of psychic/healing gifts. She is scared of his psychic gifts and thinks he's going to hell because of his psychic gifts and new age beliefs. She's constantly hounding him to "get saved" and go to her church. She has absolutely no respect for his free will and crossing his personal boundaries at every chance she gets. She even refused to pray that "God's will be done" in his life. It's her will or no will. He drinks as a combination of dealing with her control ( she can't stop him from drinking) and an escape. His self-worth is very low to begin with ( due to an abusive father who contantly told him how worthless he was) and his mother's "you're going to hell if you don't change your religion" is grinding on him. He was raised in a "hellfire and brimstone" Baptist church. It's hard to get alot of that stuff out, even when you become a "New Ager". A lot of people are very hard on him because of his drinking, and he's become quite an object of derision. I look at what he's having to live with, and go, "ya know? I'd drink, too" ( and I've never used alcohol as an escape, but if I had to live with her.....)

And, yes, Waybread, the "mission that scares him" is that he's destined to be a healer and New Age teacher. He's afraid to do that because of his mother's pressure and the subconscious fear that he just might go to hell if he pursued that direction.

Maybe one of the more unique reasons that someone drinks..... :rolleyes:

[Lin]

WB,
A strong and positive Saturn will absolutely be a modifying factor in a Neptunian chart.

However, you said," thanks for your poetic and insightful deliniation of Neptune as "trickster". Yet I think Steven Forrest is right: no planet is in our charts just to hurt us."

No planet is "in" a chart to do anything. The chart is the map of our psyche. It's the "schematic" of our psyche. It represents who we are. Planets are energy. WE place interpretation upon the planets positions and relativity to each other. We do this to be able to read the map.

Sun represents ego. Moon represents feelings and programming, Mars represents actions, Pluto represents metamorphosis... becoming..., Neptune represents deception. Neptunian energy is the "big nothing." Just as Jupiter is the great "yes" and Saturn the great "no." These are words that represent what the planetary energy represents. The words are not equal to the "truth."....we just use the words because we have no other way to speak about it.

When I talk about "Neptune's job" being to take us into oblivion, it's a metaphorical expression.
LIN

[CarrieLee]

I just needed to comment that that was a fantastic post....

[waybread]

Lin, there is so much wisdom in what you say! Yet I wonder, do you have a sardonic view of the world? I believe that you would say no, that you are merely the realist. But I think we're in the "glass is half empty" vs. "no, it's half full" terrain. To say that Neptune represents deception, pure and simple, is to see only the "trickster" face of Neptune, not the "teacher". The positive side of Neptune might be an empowering spirituality, significant artistic ability, or just the capacity for simple wonderment at the beauty of a walk by the ocean at sunset.

Neptune was the Roman sea god. One thing that occurs to me when I am fortunate enough on holiday to walk by a beach (or one of the North American Great Lakes) is to realize that humans are all pretty much like waves crashing on the beach. Some waves are bigger, and some have a further reach than others, but ultimately they are all pulled back into the sea. Only rarely does a wave rearrange the coastline, and even it is pulled back into "oblivion." Given this possibility, what is the best way to live our lives?

I don't know if you are a fan of the music of Leonard Cohen, but his old songs, "Sisters of Mercy" and "Suzanne" suggest some answers.

I have a long-term interest in mythology and folklore: very Neptunian stuff, in some regards. The oldest religions are apparently shamanistic, whether they be from Finland or Native America. The shaman's goal wasn't oblivian, but healing and connecting. To me, Joseph Campbell was one of the modern writers who really had a handle on the Neptunian world, although I don't know if he ever looked at astrology.

I have Saturn opposite sun, getting closer by progression (as this positition always indicates Saturn retrograde.) When I approached (and am now just past) my 60th birthday, I began to see Saturn as my greatest teacher. I have been fortunate to experience some rewards later in life. So I don't see some planets as good and some as bad, traditional astrology notwithstanding: we can handle any planetary energy as beneficial or harmful.

Moreover, human beings experience our lives both metaphorically and materially. "Oblivion" seems more metaphorical than representive of day-to-day life. Neptune has to have a quotidian face. For some it is watching television, or buying a lottery ticket. For others, it is reading a fairy tale to a child--or writing one.

Freedom Lover, thanks! With your friend's north node of personal growth in the 9th house of theology, philosophy, and mind-expanding activities, I hope you can suggest that it is time for him to get busy manifesting it! He can't be that much of a wimp, at his [middle] age, to let Mom continue to dominate his life in that way. I suspect what he has to contribute frightens him, so Mom and alcohol are convenient for him to hide behind. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking.....

[freedomlover]

Freedom Lover, thanks! With your friend's north node of personal growth in the 9th house of theology, philosophy, and mind-expanding activities, I hope you can suggest that it is time for him to get busy manifesting it! He can't be that much of a wimp, at his [middle] age, to let Mom continue to dominate his life in that way. I suspect what he has to contribute frightens him, so Mom and alcohol are convenient for him to hide behind. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking.....

Thanks for answering, Waybread

Oh, he spent years working on his North Node. His problem is really the PTSD, and the religious beliefs he can't seem to shake from childhood, with his mother "playing the hell card" to control him all the time. The "hell card" is quite paralyzing. So is "the family will abandon you" card. He is not a wimp by any stretch of the imagination. However, when someone has psychological factors so painful that they cannot cope, it is completely debilitating. Ask me, I know. The reason I defend his position so passionately is that I've had almost the exact same complex. It has been pure hell on earth trying to dig my way out of it. I have had virtually no help nor understanding of what this is like from others - so I know how he feels. People like us need people to help lift us up when we're low, not kick us while we're down.

I only escaped being an addict because I've got way too much Capricorn in me to let go of control. I got drunk a few times in my life, but couldn't stand not having full control of myself - so I knocked it off. But I can say that I have strongly desired an addiction to escape into with all the terrible psychological pain I've been through.

People who are alcoholics and drug users really need compassion and understanding for the reasons they have substance abuse problems - their emotional issues and belief systems -- NOT condemnation because they abuse them. Neptune is not only the planet for addiction, but also agape love.

I had another friend who was addicted to crack at one point in their life. At his lowest point, this person's entire family abandoned him - leaving him with no food or electricity.

I know sometimes it takes a wakeup call with people - but I believe they only get so hardened that they need a wakeup call becuase of the lack of compassion and understanding from others underlying all of the substance abuse problems to begin with.

Anyway - transits look good for both he and I this year, so I'm more hopeful.



I'll step down from my soapbox now.

FL

[gaer]

The positive side of Neptune might be an empowering spirituality, significant artistic ability, or just the capacity for simple wonderment at the beauty of a walk by the ocean at sunset.

That is also my view. :)

[Caprising]

[deleted non-astrological comment - Moderator]

[freedomlover]

[deleted response to non-astrological comment - Moderator]

[lodals]

Originally Posted by Kingsley
Capricorns can tend to be hard on themselves. The inner speak for the Capricorns is "get to work" "you are only ok if you work hard" etc. The hard and relentless - traditional Father has left his prescence in the early development of the Capricorn infant. Perhaps Dad was always at work and the child didnt think he was important enough? Unless that is, he went to work and worked hard.'


My Dad was a Cappy - he got drunk every Friday/Saturday night. The man he thought was his father sent him to get his Granny to help with the birth of his 'sister' when he was just five years old. He was never allowed to return home. This man had married his mother just after Dad was born and Dad had worshipped him. The rejection definitely scarred him for life.
His chart has Pluto opposing his Sun from Cancer and Neptune quincunx from Leo!

[wilsontc]

Lin,

You said:
the only weapon we have against Neptune is Pluto is.... ultimate consciousness and truth. Being scrupulously honest with ones self and others.

Like some of the others here, I disagree with seeing Neptune as being all negative. But your post about the importance of Pluto with Neptune caught my attention because I have noticed that a LOT of the times when people are having an "identity crisis" they are having transiting (moving planets in the sky) Pluto (transformation) conjuncting (energy is combined with) birth Neptune (spirituality, also confusion). So all the "confusions" they had in life are being cleared up...and fast! :D This is also a time of major life challenges and being forced to see the world for what it is...rather than for how they WANT it to be. People start to "get real" in their life at these times and face the things they had been hiding from in their life. So I think Pluto can help "transform" the "negative Neptune" energy into something that doesn't allow people to "hide from reality" any more.

Plutonically Neptunic,

Tim

P.S. And I see that someone has already started a thread about this "reality effect" of Pluto over Neptune!
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14654

[waybread]

Freedom lover, I am sorry if I came across as unsympathetic. I actually spent a couple of years attending Al Anon meetings, in an effort to cope with a close family member's drinking problem.

(For any readers unfamiliar with Al Anon, it is not the same as "AA" or Alcoholics Anonymous, but a kind of sister program for family members of alcoholics.) I eventually stopped going because I had difficulty with the spiritual direction of this 12-step program, but I think these 2 programs have helped a lot of people. Sometimes a true bottoming-out experience is required, unfortunately, before people seek out this kind of support.

Capricorns are kind of interesting re: alcohol. Some really don't let themselves lose control over their bodies, but others feel sufficiently anxious and depressed that alcohol provides a kind of release. I am guessing that aspects--oh, and what's going on with Neptune--have a lot to do with the difference.

[Lin]

Hi...first to "wilson"
As an astrologer, one of the ways I ascertain if a Neptunian has a chance at "redemption"is studying the Pluto connections in the chart. Pluto is the antidote to Neptune.... although it is "internalized" later in life (usually after the second Jupiter return or after the Saturn return) and therefore, Neptune has a lot of time to do damage, if you get my drift.

Waybread...first, Joseph Campbell studied astrology and put it aside in favor of mythology (mythology IS more fun, lets face it...lol....) before we any of us were born. Read "A Fire in the Mind", Campbells incredibly detailed bio.

Let us take 100 true Neptunians..... my experience has shown me....and, by the way, I think life is GREAT, but I call a spade a spade... to do otherwise is to be Neptunian...
my experience tells me that 95 of these Neptunians will have great difficulty navigating the roads and waterways of life because whereever they turn, there is a Neptunian detour.

The other 5 will be shamans, great spiritual teachers, and others who have learned how to control their Neptunian impulses and who have SEEN the "fantasy" for what it is.

It is true that there are people who LIVE in a spiritual context, like certain of the clergy, monks, fishermen and other who live near and for the seas.... but again, few and far between...and we are discussing those who live in the material world I think...


We NEED diversion, distraction, make believe, music, movies, books and "play" in order to deal with life, which is very very hard....a "job", in fact.


I tell my clients: Here is a representation of our solar system. Look at all these planets...most of them much larger than earth.... here is Neptune....see how gigantic it is? Now look at the planet that represents "happiness".... tiny Venus, usually outnumbered.
We need to settle for "truth", structure, intellectual balance. AFTER we have those things, we need to connect with our Creator. We need to experience GOD....each in our own way.... as each of us has a "spiritual potential"
just as we have potential for everything else....success, talent, partnership, ethics, friendship.... all is POTENTIAL... including spiritual potential.


Most people settle for Dogma. For me, it is not enough.

I went through the Neptunian stage, and luckily for me, because Pluto sextiles my Uranus, which in turn trines my Neptune, I came out on the other side.

I can have one drink. I have done some drugs in past decades but always knew, somewhere inside that it had to be a diversion only.... not a substitute for a way of life.

I've been tempted into addictive activities, but my Saturn sextile my Sun overrode my Neptunian temtation. I've always known when to stop.

I was GIVEN that when I was born. It could have gone the other way. I had an alcoholic father. Luckily I have my mother's genetics that way. BUT
MY CHART is BALANCED. I didn't balance it... that's the way I was born. Yes, I had to work at it, but

The PROMISE of my chart was Saturn-Uranus sextile Pluto Sun. I knew as I grew older that I would be able to balance my desires and temptations.


BUT there are people with Neptune at the angles.... and they have the worst time. People with Neptune conj. Mercury or square Venus or opposition Mars.... who feel a compulsion they can't control or understand. And that is the job of the astrologer. To explain the INDIVIDUAL'S chart to him/her, and bring a glimmer of truth into the Neptunian's consciousness.

The hardest thing for me to do with a client is to try to bring him/her to an understanding of the nature of Neptune, and that much of their behavior, the behavior that gets them into so much trouble, is caused by this energy that they can't even see....
that has disguised itself (disguise is Neptunian)..... and the behavior that they compulsively repeat year after year is what is standing in the way of their having a REAL life.... not a life filled with impulse and reactionary acts which later they can't explain, even to themselves.

Neptune is never "exhausted". It can only be overcome by facing it and saying, "You are a liar."

Remember in "The Exorcist" when the old priest says to the young priest..."don't listen to him... don't listen to his words, he lies"......THAT is Neptune.

It can make you feel better than you are, worse than you are, sick when you are well, well when you are sick. Good when you are bad, evil when you are good, tired when you have energy, guilty when you've done nothing, fearful when there's nothing to fear. The only thing you can count on is that whatever Neptune brings to you in the way of thoughts or feelings, it's not true.


Neptune is the great "nothing." We fill it up with whatever we have at hand at the moment. It is here one moment and gone the next. In order for anything to "actualize" from Neptune, another planet must be activating at the same time.

One of the worst sins of Neptune is the "altered state" it produces during addicting behavior. People who are addicts of all types including shopping addicts describe a feeling of this "altered state" when spending money.

Same thing happens with gamblers. Gamblers don't care about winning. It's the "gamble" that produces the altered state.

I've been studying Neptune for 20 years. It gives very very little while it takes back much more. Neptune's energy is one of bringing oblivion.... that is the altered state.

The "dissolving" that Isabel Hickey and other astrologers talk about is a very "idealized" and rare happening.

The dissolution of the "ego" to allow the spirit to be part of the person's everyday life. It's a wonderful thought and we who care about the spiritual life wish and hope and pray for this in ourselves and others, but the truth is that it is very rare.

The playwright John Patrick had one of his characters say,


"pain makes man think
thought makes man wise
and wisdom makes life endurable."

Neptune may have something to do with the pain, but it has little to do with the wisdom.
Anyway, that is my experience of 30 years as an astrologer.
LIN

[waybread]

Just beautifully written, Lin!

And it's OK with me if we "agree to disagree" on Netpune's nature. [Hey, if Neptune were easily defined and dissected, it wouldn't be Neptune!] I've enjoyed this discussion.

I think it is ironic that if we look at psychologists' theories such as Maslow's heirarchy of human needs, with self-actualization at the pinnacle, or M. Csikszentmihalyi's theory on "flow", we come pretty close to astrologer Steven Forrest's definition of Neptune's gifts:

"The ability to experience serenity, inspiration, and transcendence in the face of life's dramas." (The Changing Sky, p. 67)

The "trickster" side is "self destructive patterns of escape," to which alcoholism so clearly belongs.

You are probably familiar with Liz Greene's book, The Astrological Neptune and the Quest for Redemption. She doesn't seem to see oblivion as a factor so much as a yearning for redemption, which is a bit more self-conscious!

Intriguingly, AA, which helps recovering alcoholics, is based on a 12-step program that is very Neptunian in its insistence on surrender to one's Higher Power.

I grant you that oftentimes people will drink to excess to "get out of the day."

I have trouble with the "oblivion" thesis, however, because human beings evolved from Day One with a Neptunian consciousness, from what I can glean from archaeological evidence, such as the cave paintings at Lascaux. Isn't this Joseph Campbell's point, as well? Early people or traditional hunter-gatherers lived in a world just saturated with shamanism, magic, and myth. Oblivion wouldn't have worked well as a survival mechanism.

Rather, I think the problem is that modernity stripped out the traditional magical world view, but without positive Neptunian activities to replace it. Modernity substituted Reality TV, "recreational" drugs, and a string of pop self-help gurus.

I don't think there is such a thing as a pain-free life, whether one has an afflicted Neptunian or something else. At some point, Ken and Barbie get out of the wrapped box, and get dinged up by life. But I think Neptune offers some choices, including a working and healthy spirituality and ability to enjoy the small things of daily life, or escapism--whether into another TV Reality show or alcoholism. Once choices like the latter are made and addiction sets in, however, future choices become so much harder.

Oh, well. First house Neptune square Jupiter, here. W.

[gaer]

Lin,

My view might be much the same as yours, but I would express it differently. Or maybe we don't agree at all. You can tell me.

It seems to me that when *any* planet is out of balance by not only dominating a chart by placement, but also by difficult aspects and so on, this is what catches our eye in natal charts and sets of warning signals. Let me give one example of what I see as *danger*, someone fairly close to me. He has been lost since he was a child. Addiction is a *huge* problem.

Triple conjunction in Cancer, Saturn/Sun/Mecury, exact. All the planets inconjunct Neptune, at about 1 degree orb. Pluto square the same three, under 5 degrees. Venus opposite Neptune, about 1 degree. And Neptune in the 4th, so it's angular.

I don't see Neptune is one bit more negative than positive though, not as a planet. To me it is where it is and how it works in combination in individual charts that shows whether it will be more positive or negative.

[Lin]

You quoted: "The ability to experience serenity, inspiration, and transcendence in the face of life's dramas." (The Changing Sky, p. 67)

Absolutely.... that is what I meant by the ideal.... but most people in urban environments have come to need "instant wisdom.... instant transcendence" and that's where we get into trouble.
In simpler times connecting with "God" was the JOB of the shaman, the priest, etc. And ordinary people spent 18 hours a day on survival. They didn't have cigarettes, scotch and ganga....lol... well, maybe some cultures did.... as in Peruvians who chew coca leaves.... but they do that for energy so they can do more work, but I don't want to digress....


so much as a yearning for redemption,

"modern man" yearns for redemption (at least some of us do) but Neptune will take us down streets which are blind alleys and tell us... follow me... I will show you the way....like a shill at a carnival. True redemption comes from working at connecting with the transcended.... and it's hard to do in our world. It takes time, focus and inspiration.

JUst as an aside, I have so many people who want to study astrology.... BUT... when I tell them they have to read, study, do homework and put aside at least 2 hours.... a measily 2 hours a week, they last about a month or so and then tell me they don't have the time. LOL

Becoming proficient in astrology can only be accomplished by hard work.... it isn't given out like candy... I tell students it's like learning Chinese or Russian.... a different alphabet.... but everyone want immediate gratification, and THAT is where Neptune says....you can HAVE instant connection with God, just follow me......drink this, take this, do this.... doesn't that feel GREAT!! Now, keep doing this over and over and over and it'll keep feeling great!


Intriguingly, AA, which helps recovering alcoholics, is based on a 12-step program that is very Neptunian in its insistence on surrender to one's Higher Power.

AA is anti Neptune. The first step is to "admit we were powerless over alcohol"
But.... we could put any addictive behavior in there.... powerless over drugs, powerless over spending, powerless over gambling....
the important thing is to ADMIT POWERLESSNESS - humble onesself and say "I don't have the answer. I can't control this. I have to ELIMINATE this behavior, this substance, this belief that I have the power to control" JUST SAY NO TO NEPTUNE

THAT is when we are directed to surrender to one's Higher Power. A higher power is NOT Neptunian. Neptune did NOT creat you. (Don't take this to mean I do not validate Neptune on a psysiological level....I am not dealing with physics now)

Most people are born with the means to live a "functional" and authentic life. CHILDHOOD trauma and the people who fail to love, support and protect the child cause that child to seek anesthesia so that they don't have to feel abandoned, betrayed or unloved. And they grow up to be people who continue to "use" this skill of emotional anesthesia and negative detachment because they don't know they have become dysfunctional. A 12 year old who is drinking doesn't realize he is ruining his future. He just knows it feels better and he doesn't have deal with his problems alone... he has this friend called Neptune.... only he calls it liquor or pot or shoplifting or doing some other "secret" activity as a way of avoiding (Neptune word) the sadness in his life.

I am NOT implying in any way that we could do without Neptune. If you believe in the Bible you will see that God created the lights in the heavens "for signs and for seasons" and we, as creatures with brains and intellegence, are meant to find a way to use Neptune and not allow it to use us.

Without Neptune there would be no Water Lillies by Monet. But how many Chopins and Monets are there in the world compared to the billions who have died (and killed.... physically, mentally and emotionally) from addictive substances, especially alcohol???

LIN

[Harmonica]

These aspects are very accurate to one of the charts i know.

Alcohol seems to be an avenue of escape for some?

[franklin taylor]

Well Sun squaring Neptune, Sun in a Water Sign, Moon square Neptune are all traditional markers for alcoholism used by medical astrologers. I have no doubt really that alcoholism can be genetic, and it can certainly be a "learned" behavior. Am Scotch/Irish and near half Indian and a T-totaller..but I have been obsessed with others in my life that drink. Both Grandfathers were alcoholics and a father who drank off and on years apart from each time, but no inclination for it myself so the genetic componet can be overcome. I had eight siblings and none of them drink/drank either. Neptune fogs that fine line between when someone becomes an alcoholic or someone who drinks often, but isn't dependent upon it, and the fine line between when we WANT a drink or when we NEED one.
Body weight, body fat, and body structure all denote how much it takes to get drunk in of itself, and shows how soon a dependency upon it could develop. A 6' 225 pound male could drink two 16oz beers a day for the rest of his life and never become an alcoholic...only when he feels a compulsion that he "needs" those two beers is when it may become a problem.

The Sun squaring Neptune aspect in a person is someone who may sooner or later search for transcendency in their lives, but they may choose alcohol over yoga or even formal religion. They may get wrapped up in all kinds of escapism, other drugs, sex, withdrawing into a fantasy world on one level or another. It is good that they seek transcendency... for "soft" aspects with Neptune may trigger no desire to look outside one's own ego often enough if a too strong of a Sun is present otherwise...a selfish life. Alcoholism is a very selfish expression in life also but it is caused where the ego has been weakened rather than too large. Alcohol alters the poor ego and they become egomaniacs while drinking and still out of balance.

A positive thing is they are actually searching for transcendency...the negative thing...it may take many many disillusionments before they find a healthy and spiritually fulfilling walk. Sun square Neptune natives soak up too much of the good and bad psychic forces around them and often strongly feel the need to escape the "bad vibes" of the world around them they have perceived. Furthermore, because they also pick up the good things, they are driven by guilt for not embracing it by drinking even more to escape the pain of that guilt... The very reason you can't nag and guilt trip an alcoholic into stopping their drinking...it just gives them more ammunition to hate themselves with. A vicious cycle develops. Like I have talked about in a Sun squaring Neptune thread in the past...their main problem is they will not face up to their problems and reality often enough. That alone is a huge reason for Sun square Neptune being actually the main astrological indicator for alcoholism in Diane Cramer's medical astrology books. "How to give an astrological health reading" and the complimentary dictionary for the book. But it can't be the only one for not everyone has the aspect that are alcoholics obviously...maybe they are the hardest to change. All of which leads me to believe that transits of Neptune making Hard aspects to natal planets trigger these behaviors too.

I would also assume that Sun square Neptune can make you a victim of others "escapes". I am an Alanon member and a Sun square Neptune native whose also been the dependent of an alcoholic in the past..My identity was "dissolved" by the alcoholic..when you feel you to have to do everything for an alcoholic... your "self" becomes undefined. Neptune squaring the Sun is described in the same way...the self (Sun's Ego) is dissolved by Neptune's (dissolving and blurring effect) at the square angle.

AA says itself ...Alcoholics are people who can't get HONEST with THEMSELVES. and that they will never stop drinking for long until they do. I do occasionally attend AA meetings and about all Alanon meetings and ..using the Neptune astrological key word system I analyze these people and hear those Neptunian key words used in the common language of each of their stories every time I attend. I hear them in the Alanon people as well. These places only affirm my belief in Astrology's and Neptune's symbology. It always makes me think ..dang... I wish I knew what their charts looked like LOL

[waybread]

gaer and franklin have expressed my ideas better than I could.

Lin, you have wisdom to burn!

But I apparently take a less cynical view of human nature. Maybe because I spent time involved in an urban religious community and an urban-based human potential movement in the past, I have a more optimistic view of people's commitments to expressing healthy spirituality and happiness in more positive ways. I currently live in a rural area, where many of my neighbours attend church, study reiki, commune with the nature that surrounds us, and so on.

I don't see Al Anon as anti-Neptune at all, based upon my participation in it for several years. Neptune is both the agony and the ecstasy. I was very clear, in the Al Anon group I attended, that the members (majority wives of alcoholics) who did find this 12-step program helpful were spiritual people. "Surrender to a higher power" is very Neptunian, in the sense Liz Greene defined it in my post above.

Well, of course Neptune isn't God--i. e., the Creator, Providence, the God of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. This goes without saying. Rather, Neptune describes a kind of mystical process of surrender.

One could debate how so-called primitive/traditional people spent their time. From having studied a few First Nations (e. g. Native Americans) in some depth; no, the groups I studied did not relegate spirituality to the shaman, and then themselves live strictly materialist lives. A shaman (medicine man/woman) was seen to have extraordinary powers, notably for healing the sick. But each individual lived a profoundly religious life, notably regarding the puberty vision-quest, totem species, and various rituals and tabus surrounding hunting and women's menstrual cycles.

I am glad we agree about Neptune and aesthetic experience. After all, without Neptune, that glass of Chateau Neuf du Pape would be just another 5 oz. of old grape juice. We also agree upon the need to study astrology seriously over several years before claiming any kind of expertise in it.

Ah, well. Those "pikers" put bread in the mouths of professional astrologers! No?

[freedomlover]

Freedom lover, I am sorry if I came across as unsympathetic. I actually spent a couple of years attending Al Anon meetings, in an effort to cope with a close family member's drinking problem.
No, Waybread, you didn't -sorry if I came across as thinking you were. Actually I was thinking about some other responses to similar posts to the one I was making (that I had read in the past) that were very judgmental. Thinking about that as I started to write probably caused my post to come across that way. I don't defend his drinking ( although I do understand). But I do defend his being a good person even though he has a drinking problem. I hate it when people trash others with addictions with absolutely no compassion.

But, back to your post, Waybread. Actually, I got to thinking some more about your comment about his North Node in an intercepted house- and there is another avenue he can take, a little different than his previous NN journeys. And you're right, there is a little more growing up he needs to do. He's really very spiritually mature in many ways - but there is one area that is holding him back.

Also, I think I "see" this pattern in his chart. The ruler of his 7th and intercepted 9th is Mercury (r) in Scorpio in duplicated 11th. (Notice both houses have to do with "communication with others" - and it is his 3rd/9th house axis that is intercepted.) It is tightly conjunct the ruler of intercepted 3rd (Neptune). Ruler of the 9th (Sun in Scorpio) also in duplicated 11th. It is trine the ruler of his 12th - Mars in Cancer in the 7th as well as conjunct Lilith and Black Moon Lilith. (And what sign and house are Mars and Lilith in? - Cancer, the sign of the mother, and in the 7th house) This relationship with his mother must be really karmic.

It's really interesting about all the emphasis on the 3rd/9th houses and Mercury being retrograde and tightly conjunct Neptune: When he drinks, you can't tell it. He sounds "sober as a judge". He says that he can't express himself when he's not drinking - he has a hard time speaking up and being social when he's sober.

(Chart link again, if needed for reference, since it's a few posts back.)
View Chart of Friend with Alcoholism (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l120/freedomlover65/astro_2gw_30_male_hr8337121726.gif)
(Click on image to enlarge)


Thanks again for all your help, Waybread

FL

[waybread]

Thank you, freedomlover (and everyone on this thread) for your feedback. It's how I learn astrology.

[Lin]

To all....regarding Neptune...

Everything I have said above is, first, coming from my professional experience as an astrologer and also my more than 15 year old study of Neptune as the core issue of the addict.

Without doubt, the easiest charts to read are those with heavy Neptunian positions and aspects. The list of the sins of Neptune hit home with all the clients I've read for over the past 25 years.

NOw....if I WEREN'T an astrologer, and if I didn't live in suburban NY state, I would not have the same clientelle, the same experiences, the same knowledge. One can only KNOW what one experiences.

And in that vein, I am also the daughter of an alcoholic, the wife of an alcoholic and because of my "ACOA" status, have always found myself connected to and with people of addictions of all types. So studying Neptune as a sideline in my astrological life was meant to be.

HOwever, before I ever thought of studying Neptune, I studied Saturn. And I beg and plead with any of you reading this to do the same if you are serious about really understanding astrology. Saturn is the key....the structure, the skeleton on which you will build your knowledge of astrology.

Read "A New Look at an Old Devil" by Liz Greene.

Once you understand that the planets are metaphors for all the various impulses in the human being, you can begin to understand how reading the map actually works. It is a fascinating study, and can be lifelong, because you NEVER know EVERYTHING, no matter how long you study.

And do you know WHY you can never know everything??? Neptune and Uranus. Even though we are meant to be able to "read" the heavens, it is a ponderous study. And you need to be able to do your own research.... meaning studying the charts of many many people, beginning with friends and others who will allow you into their personal lives.
Studying your OWN chart is very hard to do and maybe even impossible unless you are studying with a teacher who can help discover information that Neptune will want to hide from you.

One thing is obvious from this discussion: all astrologers have their own points of view, and we all have our own experience which makes it difficult to look at an issue from another astrologers point of view!!

I KNOW, intellectually, that Neptune is the key to finding and experiencing God....but... my experience tells me that mostly Neptunian influence subverts and contaminates the ordinary individuals quest for wisdom. EVERYone has a Neptune. The key...and this is always and forever the truth... the KEY is the individual chart. We cannot and should NEVER lump all signs, aspects, etc, together and say, for example, all people who have Neptune square the Sun will be addicts.

The TRUTH is that in most addicts Neptune will be trine some other planets, and be part of other patterns which we think of as Positive! How can this be? Because if the individual did NOT get the desired effect from the alcohol or drug when he/she began using it, a feeling of exhiliration, freedom, a sense of release, of "anesthesia" from pain, HE WOULD NOT CONTINTUE to use that substance! So therefore, Neptune gives the user, at least initially, what he has advertised!!
Get it? It's only LATER that when the person can no longer get the desired effect quickly and immediately does he have to increase the amount of the substance, and the frequency of use.... and therefore becomes an addict.

Neptune is devious. And it's subtlty becomes subliminal power which, without Saturn or Plutonian influences, will continue to lead one AWAY from the light. And those Saturn and Pluto influences must be the right ones - positive influences on the personal planets in the chart - or else they might actual AID Neptune into something even darker.

It really is, "the razor's edge."
LIN

[CappyLeo]

Sure could of used this thread some years back. Don't let me interfere with the Neptune discussion...but anyone ever heard of spiritual thirst? My understanding is vague but what I had gathered, when people have difficult lives & all hope is exhausted, they tend turn to spirituality for magical answers but being the obscure concept that it is, they turn to alcohol or drugs in an attempt to capture that spiritual essence that they believe can transport them from the physical pain. Just my meager contribution to the topic.

If I could go back to the alcoholic tendencies...Self-disclosure here but I'm a 'recovering' alcoholic (someone brought-up? - 2/3rds Irish & fourth Italian) which the 12 step program was instrumental in the beginning though I believe it was just the idea of being among others who shared the same 'disease' rather then the steps that can take you so far. A promising new approach (sorry, don't know the founders name) is referred to as 'The Alcohol Cure' to which he encourages a digging into the reasons for numbing ourselves - gee, what a concept?

Someone had mentioned the Sun & Saturn? Well, the sun square saturn is there. Many had mentioned the capricorn? Sun is in capricorn & my mother, who is a quadruple capricorn, is a practicing alcoholic & pill junkie with all progressed into pisces -no reaching her. From what of learned, people drink to gain a sense of control which is certainly what us cappies are all about.

Few mentioned the moon but no mention of a libra moon - tipping the scales or bottoms up! Though I have no real afflictions to the moon, or at least from what I've calculated. However, the libra moon in the 3rd house tells me that I drank in order to be more comfortable in conversation among other things.

But what motivates, many have touched on the venus, mars & neptune. With venus squaring mars in the 4th house, the homelife & the mother was more than any sober person could deal with. Especially if the Italian capricorn mother uses guilt & shame to control. Now take that mars & square it to (neptune) in the 4th house & everybody around you diluted themselves - grandparents, aunts, uncles & the 12 year old cousin. You know no other type of environment.

I'm sure there other indications in the chart & feel free to dissect & ask questions. This has always been of interest but didn't want to touch it until I had more of an astrological understanding. I'm especially interested in natal, progressed & solar return aspects that indicate how & when one will turn their life around. I had many saturn & uranus aspects at the time but know there's more to it.

Hope this wasn't too much...:eek:

[Grand Trine]

My mother is a retired psychotherapist whose specialty was treating alcoholics and opiate/cocaine addicts. From her I learned that alcoholism/drug use is a learned coping mechanism. If at the end of the day or beginning of the day mom/dad kicked back a few beers or ate darvon like m&m's over time this becomes accepted familial functional behavior, hence the reason alcoholism "runs in families". Very few posess a genetic sequence or urge that drives them to alcoholism. Alcoholism riddles my family: a grandfather, three uncles, my dear taurus brother all chose this lifestyle as it wasn't patterned for them in the home. I have neptune conjunct my sun and don't use so much as an Aleve let alone touch alcohol or legal/illicit drugs. As an astrologer I look for escapist tendencies in a chart: 12th house sun, neptune or an aspect between neptune and venus. In general the only time neptune is strong is when it falls in scorpio, scorpio blows away the fogs of neptune and creates enlightenment and illumination. Sorry to slam Capricorns here but in my 40+ years I have yet to personally know a Cap that is content at any level, particularly spiritual. IMHO they are most miserable and that misery leads to escapism and escapists often choose lifestyles that embrace alcohol and other drugs. Pisces is associated with escapist tendencies however that is across the board and usually manifests in living in denial about many life issues, not exclusively drug related. I have suspected that denial is the core of addiction: denial of true sexuality, identity, direction one really wants to go in life...not doing what is expected. Caps have issues with following bliss and often do what they have been told to do or expected of them at the expense or their soul's happiness. When I meet an alcoholic or drug user who is an earth sign I know they are mighty unhappy about something close to their core. I look at their venus as that is an indicator of what they really love and then I look at the soul chart. Those two reveal alot without needing to probe.
As for the Irish being the biggest alcoholics, that is a negative stereotype. In my mothers 40 years of practice her worst drunks were in descending order: Russian/Polish/Irish. He worst cocaine addicts: Italian. Go figure. Her patients that had the most recitivism: Irish. FYI to a previous poster: there is no such thing as a Scotch Irish. Scotch is a liqour and Scots are from Scotland.

[hermetic]

What an insightful thread.

Lin, great posts I very much enjoyed reading



But, back to your post, Waybread. Actually, I got to thinking some more about your comment about his North Node in an intercepted house-

FL

I wanted to contribute here by posting two example charts

1st is a friend who has a serious drinking problem, 2nd is a friend who died of a heroin overdose in her twenties.
In first chart I see Neptune as the highest point, very close to MC(artistic career) and also as in freedomlover's example NN in intercepted house, in Pisces.
Both charts have Neptune retrograde and opposed to Mercury - perhaps Mercury is the reasonable mind as a mean of fighting off grips of addiction - not worked properly in these cases?
I am still not good at getting more info out of the charts, but anyone else be free to comment on the things I missed.

[CappyLeo]

Grand Trine? Sorry, can't figure how to insert quotes yet but you said,

"In general, the only time neptune is strong, is when it falls in scorpio, scorpio blows away the fogs of neptune and creates enlightenment and illumination."

Are you indicating that a scorpio in neptune could be an eventual sobering placement in a chemical dependent chart? Maybe seeing what I want here but just couldn't put it into context with the rest of the entry.

Curious being a recovering alcoholic with neptune in scorpio though it has its squares.

Thanx:confused:

[freedomlover]

Grand Trine,

FYI to a previous poster: there is no such thing as a Scotch Irish. Scotch is a liqour and Scots are from Scotland. Well, he said he was "Scotch/Irish", maybe THAT'S why he drinks so much!:p (Not to be confused with the Vodka/Irish or the Gin/Irish, of course.;))

Seriously, there are lots of "Scot/Irish" in the rural area I grew up in - very prevalent. Until you pointed it out, I'd never thought about how it should be pronounced. Everybody I'd ever heard pronounced it "Scotch/Irish". (Of course, there were alot of heavy drinkers amongst them, too......:rolleyes:)

As for the Irish being the biggest alcoholics, that is a negative stereotype. In my mothers 40 years of practice her worst drunks were in descending order: Russian/Polish/Irish. He worst cocaine addicts: Italian. Go figure.

I find the ethnic breakdown of your mother's clients very curious. I've noticed the high number of cocaine addicts among Italians that I know, as well.

FL

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Scotch is an old fashioned term for being Scottish. I've heard it used a couple of times even though Scot is the more common word.

[wilsontc]

all,

At the request of waybread, I have looked over the content Ray posted and noticed that it is not about personal astrology (astrology of an individual) but is mundane astrology (astrology of a country). The points Ray makes, although off topic here, are very interesting and deserve their own thread. So I have moved Ray's comments about how the astrology of a country affects the way people in the country are perceived to here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15099

If you want to follow up on Ray's discussion about how the astrology of a country affects people, please go to this new thread. If you want to post about personal, individual astrology of alcoholism, please post your comments here.

Since this matter is now resolved and Ray's thread is preserved, I have permanently deleted the "back and forth" comments as not being needed any more.

Moderately,

Tim