View Full Version : sociopathic chart?
02-22-2007, 05:34 AM
I know a person (male, 45 yrs old) who I have come to believe is sociopathic. What are the aspects and houses associated with this?
Sorry, I still can't download a chart here. It's the last step I can't get right.
May 16, 1961
time not known- I guess this might affect the accuracy.
Anyone want to take a look? Thank you ahead of time.
02-22-2007, 08:07 AM
Any form of anti-socialism would have to involve the social planets, Jupiter and Saturn (social conscience), and if you think in terms of psycho/emotional 'against everyone', you'd probably find an outer planet involvement as well.
To make it PERSONAL, there would need to be an involvement of Sun and/or Moon.
Sun in Taurus is inconjunct to retrograde Saturn....difficulty in terms of social conscience. Saturn is on 29 degr., which I understand is 'critical'.
On 16-05-1961, there was a long term T-square between Mars, Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto in the first decanate of the FIXED signs.
The thought process falls under Gemini-Mercury. Mercury is in its own sign. The Moon is in Gemini, which could derange the thought processes. According to the person's time of birth, Moon and Mercury could be conjunct. If not, what one thinks and what one's thoughts makes on feel, could be adversaries.
The house involvement would largely depend upon his attitude regarding his place in the world. Whether he is against the world, or he feels the world is against him. By coincidence, his Black Moon Lilith is on 11 degr. Leo, thus completing a grand cross in the fIXED signs, whereby I'd be inclined to think the latter.;) He might therefore take out his suppressed anger on the opposite sex.
02-22-2007, 06:39 PM
Thank you for the reply.
I know this person well, and can say that when younger, he was almost constantly abusive to his sister (psychological abuse, some physical abuse as well and there was cruelty to animals a few times). He has turned out to be an arrogant, "it's all about me" type. His conversation is superficial and he keeps talking, talking. He brags about himself.
He is a salesman and (get this), a member of a right wing Christain church..
His 2 kids are a mess...don't want to take up the time to go into that.
His rather phony, superficial wife (who ranked above him socially) divorced him after almost 20 years of marriage. She is a "let's pretend everything is wonderful" type, probably a masochist(?) She still will not explain why she left him. And she doesn't have much to do with her kids (maybe they have been turned against her and she is distancing herself?) It's a deep, dark secret...nobody knows hmmm I have a theory about why she isn"t talking
....The interesting thing is she jumped into another marriage with a guy who was violent with her after 6 months of marriage. She is still with him. We did hear about that one. It seems that these kind of women keep on marrying the same type.
You mentioned the retrograde saturn in 29 degees of a sign. What do you mean by "critical". That it has extreme emphasis? I don't have the info in front of me so that I can comment more on what you said.
I think the birth time was in the wee hours of the morning, maybe between 1:30 and 2:30am. He wasn't born at night, that much I know. I understand there is a way to deal with an indefinite birth time, but I don't know the method.
Anyway, if there are any other insights about this, I would appreciate hearing them. Thanks ahead of time!
sociopath is a termwhich can describe many behavior types.
but this guy is a malicious,crazy person.chiron opposed to pluto whci can be a excellent heaing aspect is more often symbolic of a very cynical,malicious mindset.with the sun/mercury midpoint forming a T square the the mental aspect is enhanced,he would be harshly critical of everyone and malicious in intend.with uranus on the ascendant,he has the potential manic mental states
02-23-2007, 05:37 AM
I appreciate the input. You know, he is VERY cynical. It does sound like him! What kind of chart (Placidus, etc) and time did you use? I think the birth would have been in the morning, but (as I said) I'm not absolutely sure of the hour. Isn't there a way to compensate for that?
02-23-2007, 02:24 PM
hi Jen, are you sure you are talking about a "sociopath"? it seems what you describe is a little bit too light for a real sociopath. it rings more like "narcissic personality disorder". just a thought.
iused noon as the time and i used placidus cusps.with a noon birth time .will the manic aspect fitting him i would think that he was born near noon.to figure out the time of birth ,it is usually necessary to work with the native to analysis transit patterns but it is problematic at best with cooperation.
02-23-2007, 07:27 PM
I didn't mention his lack of conscience. I should have in the first post. He never apologizes for anything. You could be right, it could be a narcissistic personality disorder. I thought about that as well. He is VERY conformist and money oriented, although his 2 wives (the new wife is the in legal profession) have not only ranked socially above him but make more money than he does. Curious... I realize that I'm not a psychologist, but I did look at some information about sociopaths, and lot of it seems to fit.
During his later teens, he was potentially in trouble with the law because of some violent acts, but the person did not press charges.
My 2 cents....
02-23-2007, 07:31 PM
Thanks again...I missed your reply somehow. Anyway. an astrologer claims to have a method of dealing with that. I can't remember the name right now...I think he is English. Anyway, that would great if someone did come up with a system to compensate for an unknown birth time.
02-24-2007, 05:30 AM
For the past few days I've been collecting birth charts of people of known psychological structures to see if I can find the common astrological aspects that would indicate them. So I was very happy to bump into this thread and readily registered.
The first thing we have to say is that the way we relate to people depends on how we deal with our inner demons more than the nature of the demons themselves. For example, not every man with a harsh Mars-Saturn aspect (present in your sociopathic person's chart) will deal with it with cruelty towards others, but it happens in many cases (the Marquis of Sade, "inventor" of sadism, had a Mars-Saturn square). This is because his masculine ego and drive, represented by Mars, is being repressed by Saturn, creating an enormous inner anger and tension. One can either sumbit to his Super-Ego (Saturn) and not be assertive at all, or one can send it to hell and become overly assertive to the point of being reckless and cruel if need be (like the person you were talking about).
In your "friend"'s case, his Mars is further tormented by the square to Neptune (planet of dreams, illusions, spirituality,...), giving an unnatainable feeling of one's drives. And if this wasn't enough, he has Mars opposition Jupiter, which is an indicator of narcisim, for Jupiter in a harsh aspect always exagerates things and over-expresses them. So considering only Mars in the guy's chart, I would say he has a huge unconscious feeling of impotence towards his masculine ego, which he compensates by being harsh, reckless, violent and cruel towards others.
This impotence is further stressed by a 7th house Pluto (if he was born at 1:30 like you suggested). Pluto is associated to power and anything that falls in your seventh house is somewhat unconscious which you need to reach within yourself in order to feel "whole", but many don't and jusk seek it in a partner, living it through projection. So with all these influences, I bet this guy can't get an erection with a woman unless he totally dominates her. But I'll say it again, not everyone with these aspects will behave like this. This is obviously someone who has taken the easy way out, taking advantage of others to feel powerful instead of facing his own demons. I bet his parents didn't let him do anything he wanted when he was a kid or severely punished him when he did.
Looking at others things, I can tell you I have found your sociopaths Sun-Uranus harsh aspect in most other sociopathic people's charts. This means one's Ego's structure is not very stable and most people with this aspect are very selfish. This influence is an indicator of a Borderline Ego structure and this structure is associated with an inner feeling of emptiness and deep insecurities (but not everyone with this aspect is borderline ok). Everybody with this structure is extremely intense although some may hide it with a high degree of control. These people possess a defensive mechanism called splitting, which make them feel everything either extremely good or extremely bad with no midpoint. So they have a high degree of idealization, but if they see you as the bad object, they will show no mercy. Some Borderline structures, when not organized, have little space for the feelings of others. They can hurt you and not feel anything by it. While a psychotic structure will fantasy how others are and feel (therefore being sensitive to other's feelings), the borderline just doesn't feel the other (hence the inner emptiness he has). The borderline unconsciously tries to apprehend the feeling of others by testing them and attacking them constantly (not necessarily in a harmful way). You know those people who like to **** you off and feel somewhat relieved when you calmly assert yourself and create boundaries, stopping their omnipotence? That actually makes them feel safe, even if they get angry after you do that. And they'll respect you for it and love you more.
Ok I'm overextending myself... I'll say one last thing about the chart: I agree with what Frisiangal said about the Moon-Mercury conjunction in Gemini. He will be extremely rational about his emotions. Thought will dominate over feeling. And the fact that there are no personal planets in a water sign could be the sign of lack of empathy. Oh and Mercury making a square to pluto can bring about mental manipulation. The guy is certainly extremely intelligent.
Sorry for the huge thread. Hope that was helpful. Best wishes!
PS: can we have the wife's date of birth?
02-24-2007, 08:26 PM
Wow, that was a fascinating (and disturbing) thread. So there is something he has in common with the infamous Maquis de Sade?OHHH boy...
I can tell you that when he was young (and I was there to witness this) he once pulled the legs of a couple of grass spiders (they are harmless long legged spider-like animals) and threw them on the ground and LAUGHED at the poor little blobs in a very harsh, metallic voice...It was unlike the usual laugh he has. It was scary. I remember standing there just staring at him, knowing something was wrong with him. Then I went over and quickly put them out of their misery, which was hard to do because I don't like to kill anything. I will add that normally he was rather indifferent to the few pets he had. He was bored with his g. pig. He tended to neglect it rather than actually hurt it. He would even pet the family dog once in a while, but there didn't seem to be any deep bonding.
Perhaps some see that as some what minor, but even when someone does that to bugs for "FUN", he would be considered a sadist by psychologists. I'm sure of that. I don't know how often he did things like that, but I have feeling there may have been more incidents that I don't know about.
You know, I have a feeling that this comes from a past life. Does anyone know how to determine that? I don't know enough about astrology yet.
I know that his ex wife is either 3-1 years younger than he is, I think 2 years younger. Not much help here on that. Her birthday is in Oct. That's all I know. As for the new wife, I don't have any information about the birthdate.
So do you think he is a sociopath, rather than a narcissistic type?
This all kind of disquieting, to say the least!
02-24-2007, 08:37 PM
I wanted to respond your comments on the chiron opposition pluto plus the sun/mercury t square. Yes, he is pretty much what you are talking about. He can get VERY nasty if he feels slighted. Actually, I don't have any good memories about the person. None at all...
As for the uranus influence and possible mania, I have oberved him a few months ago, prancing around, bragging about himself and talking a blue streak. It was like he was in hyperdrive. I've never seen him quite like that before. But he has never been hospitalized , at least as far as I know.
02-25-2007, 03:25 AM
Oh and Mercury making a square to pluto can bring about mental manipulation. The guy is certainly extremely intelligent.
PS: can we have the wife's date of birth?
I've always wondered what what kind of traits does Pluto Square Mercury aspect hold?
is it more negative then postve?
02-25-2007, 06:31 PM
Some interesting info I found on Bob Mark's website:
The horoscope of Francisco Assis (http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/famouscharts/charts/assis.jpg), the Brazilian serial killer who killed at least nine women, doesn't seem, at first, to be excessively violent. But when you look at Francisco's 4th Harmonic Chart (http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/famouscharts/charts/assisfrancisco_4thharmonic.gif), you see another story. The Sun is opposite Venus, which can give feelings of being unloved. Yes, but lots of people have that and they don't become serial killers. What they don't have is Uranus making square aspects in the 4th harmonic to both the Sun and Venus. Uranus can make one prone to sudden, hysterical outbursts. Still, everyone born that day had the same thing. What else is there here to drive him over the edge? The Ascendant also makes stress aspects. It opposes Uranus and squares both the Sun and Venus. This makes a Grand Cross, a rare and highly stressful pattern. The Ascendant is very sensitive to changes in the time of birth. In the 4th harmonic chart, this Grand Cross could only have formed in a time interval of about 20 minutes!
But there's more to come. Mercury (the mind) Mars (violence) and Saturn (depression) make a T-Cross formation (another stressful configuration) in the 4th harmonic as well. Once again though, everyone born that day had the same thing. Why is this case different? Take another look at the birth chart. There is a close semi-square between Mars and the cusp (beginning) of the 8th house (death). Not only that, but Mars rules the sign of Aries, which happens to be the sign on the cusp of the 12th house (psychological problems) as well. This is the classic 8th house-12th house connection frequently found in the charts of serial killers. Where does the 8th house cusp land in the 4th harmonic chart? Opposite Mars, with square aspects to both Mercury and Saturn. It forms another Grand Cross. And this too, could only have been formed in an interval of about 20 minutes. It could take hours to see this in a birth chart. In the 4th harmonic chart, the conclusion leaps out at you.
I feel I didn't quote right...well..let's blame it on the Mercury retro:p .
So,since the4th Harmonic has to do with "stress and struggle",I guess we would also have to look at it when searching for indicators of any kind of crime..am I right?
Just my input.
03-16-2007, 04:28 AM
Yes, I have read the articles on soicopaths and the preponderance of Sag, Cap, pisces, and Gemini by signs. It also seems that the 12th and eight houses are often highlighted.
Have read this in more than one place, the victims often have similar charts as the sociopaths. Sociopath seem to cover a wide range of personality disorders. Most have dual diagnosis.
Ted Bundy was the extreme of narcissism.
Why would victims have a similar chart as the sociopath. a lot of victims go on to be really great people. Just seems odd.
Also, Chiron is prominient in Victim charts.
04-09-2007, 07:45 AM
I cant see sociopathic but without the time you dont get the angles or house placement or close moon aspects.
The first thing that struck me was the tight mars jupiter opposition. Men with this aspect MAY be philandering types. Mars is important in a guys chart & this guys mars is in Leo. Leo can come across as quite arrogant & hyper rationalist
He has a close Sun Uranus square which can be a hair trigger temper. Such Uranus connections can also be reckless and even uncaring about how what they want effects others. Its can act out as "I want what I want & I want it now & stuff anyone else type scenario"
The Sun trine Saturn is not a stressful aspect but trines seem to able to be misused or wasted depedending on the personality of course. But I cant see sociopathic. I think the guy may be led by this Mars in Leo opposite Jupiter.
Moon in gemini is often 'light & fluffy' or a puer or does not like to get into feelings but detatches. Because we havent got the time of birth we dont know if his moon aspects pluto. But I dont think it would in the US due to your time zones. Down here in the land down under our timezone is -10hours & a pluto moon for this guy could be a fact.
I have a problem with describing Pluto opp Chiron as a personally dibilitating aspect. There are both slow moving so it is a generational aspect. 240 approx years for Pluto and 50 approx for Chiron. I think it does a disservice to us mid sixties people to say that they are critical and cynical. As with all aspects we use them as we chose. Even when aspected "harshly" to personal planets is still not automatically mean a negative attitude to other people.
Love & Light
04-09-2007, 09:44 AM
At a conference early this year a speaker suggested that many people do not experiance their chiron but just avoid it. It makes quite a bit of sense to me.
The speaker indicated that people on a chironic path eg some healers teachers etc may experiance chiron
I must say that people I come across dont seem to get much going on with Chrion aspects & transits.
Perhaps the cycle of chiron tho to itself brings in olde familial issues in some guise but other than that...
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