Valens Anthologies' Triangles

[rox]

I am a beginner and started reading Valens. Can someone pleas explain to me how the triangles work? Here's what he says:
The Triangles
When the zodiacal circle is subdivided according to similarities and differences, we find two sects,solar and lunar, day and night. The sun, being fiery, is most related to Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius, andthis triangle of the sun is called “of the day-sect” because it too is fiery by nature. The sun has attached Jupiter and Saturn to this sect as his co-workers and guardians of the things which he accomplishes: Jupiter as a reflection of the sun and as his successor to the kingship, a partisan of good, and the bestower of glory and life, Saturn on the other hand as a servant of evil and of downfall, and a depriver of years <of life>.Therefore the sun is the lord of this triangle for day births; for night births Jupiter succeeds to the throne;
Saturn works with both.
Next the moon, being near the earth, is allotted the houserulership of Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn, a
triangle earthy in nature and the next in order. It has Venus and Mars as members of the same sect: Venus
(as is reasonable) acts as a benefactor and distributes glory and years; /56K/ Mars acts as the bane of nativities. Therefore for night births the moon has preeminence; in the second place is Venus; in the third is Mars. For day births Venus will lead; the moon will operate second; Mars, third./55P/ Next is the airy triangle of Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius. For day births Saturn will rule this; Mercury will operate second; Jupiter, third. For night births Mercury will lead; Saturn will come second; Jupiter, third.
In the same fashion, next is the moist triangle of Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces. Mars will have the houserulership for night births; in the second place is Venus; in the third the moon. For day births Venus will lead; after it comes Mars; then the moon.
Note that Mercury is common and works with the two sects to a special degree to accentuate the good or the bad, and to accentuate the individual characteristics and configurations of each star.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Today, they are more commonly referred to as the Triplicities. In general astrological terms they account for a specific place of dignity where a planet in its triplicity during the right time of day would gain dignity there.

There are more specific techniques which can be utlized as well.

What parts are you (specifically) having difficulties with?

[Anachiel]

I am a beginner and started reading Valens. Can someone pleas explain to me how the triangles work? Here's what he says:
The Triangles
When the zodiacal circle is subdivided according to similarities and differences, we find two sects,solar and lunar, day and night. The sun, being fiery, is most related to Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius, andthis triangle of the sun is called “of the day-sect” because it too is fiery by nature. The sun has attached Jupiter and Saturn to this sect as his co-workers and guardians of the things which he accomplishes: Jupiter as a reflection of the sun and as his successor to the kingship, a partisan of good, and the bestower of glory and life, Saturn on the other hand as a servant of evil and of downfall, and a depriver of years <of life>.Therefore the sun is the lord of this triangle for day births; for night births Jupiter succeeds to the throne;Saturn works with both.

In this he, like Morinus does with houses, is showing an elemental theme amongst signs (or places) in trine to each other.

Like Dorotheus, he gives each trine or Triplicity or triangle, 3 lords, so to speak. One for the day, if the birth or question is in the day. One for the night if born at night. One for general rulership due to it's natural sympathy with that triangle or theme anytime.


So, in your example above; for the fire signs, the Sun is most like or, shares in the qualities of fire moreso in the day. Ya, obviously so. Need I say more here?

At night, Jupiter is more akin to the nature of fire. Obviously. The Sun is not present or it wouldn't be night. So, where's the fire then? Usually candles, hearths, lights, etc...which all share a very, usually, benefic influence upon humanity as they help light our way in the dark, cook our food, provide warmth, etc. Much like Jupiter, the Greater Benefit would do for someone.

In general, however, fire is a severe element. It consumes and therefore obliterates and destroys by it's very nature. Thus, Saturn, who also consumes and deprives shares in the theme of fire all the time for no matter whether it be day or night, fire is consuming and destructive by nature at its core.

So, that is how they work. Now, how are they used?

A planet in triplicity in a chart is comfortable. (Understand that I speak from a horary point of view). The planet understands where it is at and is in sympathy with the environs. It knows it's way around there well because it shares the theme of that sign. Thus things tend to go "well" for it. It is also well fortified with +3 points of essential dignity as far as natural strength goes.

[rox]

Today, they are more commonly referred to as the Triplicities. In general astrological terms they account for a specific place of dignity where a planet in its triplicity during the right time of day would gain dignity there.

There are more specific techniques which can be utlized as well.

What parts are you (specifically) having difficulties with?

Next is the airy triangle of Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius. For day births Saturn will rule this; Mercury will operate second; Jupiter, third. For night births Mercury will lead; Saturn will come second; Jupiter, third.

the above quote is unclear. this is how i understand it: my sun is in the triangle of gemini libra and aquarius, because i am born with a gemini sun, hence, this triangle is ruled by saturn (dominant for in my chart), seconded by mercury and helped by jupiter. in order to assess the power of my gemini sun i will need to look at saturn's placement, house ruler, then mercury, then jupiter. and why does he call this a triangle. there is no geometrical shaped triangle in my chart between these planets. arrrrgh!

[rox]

and what does it mean by "at an angle"?

Now then, for those born during the day: if the sun is found in Aries, Leo, or Sagittarius, it is best for
it to be at an angle.

[tsmall]

Hi, rox. I noticed that you are looking for a place to start studying traditional/ancient methods here

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46165

and as JUPITERASC has pointed out, Valens is a good source. I have found though that in trying to get through it (Venus is greasy? Why?) it helps to have a better background in the ideas/concepts being presented. Anachiel and Kaiousei no Senshi are excellent traditional astrologers, and so they are very much able to answer questions, but I have found (as a newbie) that finding books that explain these concepts in modern English (as opposed to translations, like Valens and Ptolemy and Ezra and the others) is a better place to start. If you can understand the triplicities, and sect, and dignities and debilities before you tackle the translations you <might> have an easier time of it. But, that is just what has been working for me, and doesn't mean it will work for everyone. Tutorial on dignity/debility/including triplicities here

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

My suggestion from my own reading is to start with the basics and move on to the masters...and keep asking questions.

Next is the airy triangle of Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius. For day births Saturn will rule this; Mercury will operate second; Jupiter, third. For night births Mercury will lead; Saturn will come second; Jupiter, third.

the above quote is unclear. this is how i understand it: my sun is in the triangle of Gemini Libra and Aquarius, because i am born with a Gemini sun, hence, this triangle is ruled by Saturn (dominant for in my chart), seconded by mercury and helped by Jupiter. in order to assess the power of my Gemini sun i will need to look at Saturn's placement, house ruler, then mercury, then Jupiter. and why does he call this a triangle. there is no geometrical shaped triangle in my chart between these planets. arrrrgh!

Were you born day or night? Because Saturn rules the Air triplicity (Libra, Aquarius and Gemini) by day, but Mercury rules it by night...and I would have to go and look it up (you mentioned Jupiter), but the Hellenists gave a third alternate ruler that later, yet still traditional astrologers dropped. Keep in mind that triplicity rulers are ruling the signs that form the triangle, so they may not form a triangle themselves in the chart. The triangle (trigon) is formed by the zodiac, not the planets. That is why it is necessary to understand the concepts first...diurnal vs. nocturnal, masculine vs. feminine, the elements, the temperaments, and why planets are dignified or debilitated in which signs...my humble advice is to start with On The Heavenly Spheres or some other such intro book, and go from there.

BTW, is your chart anywhere? Posting it with a reading request from traditional only astrologers might help you...

[Anachiel]

Next is the airy triangle of Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius. For day births Saturn will rule this; Mercury will operate second; Jupiter, third. For night births Mercury will lead; Saturn will come second; Jupiter, third.
.... there is no geometrical shaped triangle in my chart between these planets. arrrrgh!


mmmkay....this does not mean you need to have a trine of these planets in your chart. He is talking about the trine/triangle/triplicity of signs that is in every chart. In your example Gemini, Libra, Aquarius - the air triplicity.

In a day chart, both Saturn and Mercury have affinity with this triangle with Saturn preferred but, if Mercury is there instead then good. If no one is there then, so what?

At night, Mercury is preferred and Saturn takes the back-seat. But, Jupiter can also play in this triangle if neither Mercury nor Saturn are there. We would prefer Mercury, and will accept Saturn.

Jupiter is at home here day or night...remember my previous post where I explained why Saturn was at home in the Fire Triplicity? Well, here in the Air Triplicity it's Jupiter because Jupiter and Air are similar in nature as both are temperate as well as hot and moist, day or night.

If you have none of these planets in these signs then, OK. We move on to the many other things that exist in the chart to, at some point, have a holistic vision of how it is working and what it is presenting.

Air is a little confusing because Mercury is here. Mercury is sort of a chameleon in that he can adapt to whatever or wherever he is. So, that is why this triplicity is a little more generous with it's governors of day and night, saying "preferred" rather than "this is it!" for the day/night.

Got it?

[rox]

Hi, rox. I noticed that you are looking for a place to start studying traditional/ancient methods here

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46165

and as JUPITERASC has pointed out, Valens is a good source. I have found though that in trying to get through it (Venus is greasy? Why?) it helps to have a better background in the ideas/concepts being presented. Anachiel and Kaiousei no Senshi are excellent traditional astrologers, and so they are very much able to answer questions, but I have found (as a newbie) that finding books that explain these concepts in modern English (as opposed to translations, like Valens and Ptolemy and Ezra and the others) is a better place to start. If you can understand the triplicities, and sect, and dignities and debilities before you tackle the translations you <might> have an easier time of it. But, that is just what has been working for me, and doesn't mean it will work for everyone. Tutorial on dignity/debility/including triplicities here

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

My suggestion from my own reading is to start with the basics and move on to the masters...and keep asking questions.



Were you born day or night? Because Saturn rules the Air triplicity (Libra, Aquarius and Gemini) by day, but Mercury rules it by night...and I would have to go and look it up (you mentioned Jupiter), but the Hellenists gave a third alternate ruler that later, yet still traditional astrologers dropped. Keep in mind that triplicity rulers are ruling the signs that form the triangle, so they may not form a triangle themselves in the chart. The triangle (trigon) is formed by the zodiac, not the planets. That is why it is necessary to understand the concepts first...diurnal vs. nocturnal, masculine vs. feminine, the elements, the temperaments, and why planets are dignified or debilitated in which signs...my humble advice is to start with On The Heavenly Spheres or some other such intro book, and go from there.

BTW, is your chart anywhere? Posting it with a reading request from traditional only astrologers might help you...

yes, thanks tsmall, you give me excellent advice, which i will follow.
i did understand correctly then, the triangle he mentions is "formed" by the signs, not by the planets. (see how silly i am if i'm looking for an actual triangle:whistling:).
and here's my chart.

[Anachiel]

and what does it mean by "at an angle"?

Now then, for those born during the day: if the sun is found in Aries, Leo, or Sagittarius, it is best for
it to be at an angle.

Angles are the 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th houses. They are powerful places. Next are the succeedent houses (2, 5, 8, 11) and then the cadent houses (3, 6, 9, 12).

You'll undertand why when you get to/study accidental dignity and debility.

[rox]

anachiel, got it NOW. thanks. it's a long way, i don't know if you guys will bear with me...

[Anachiel]

No problem. We're all students of astrology in different parts of the library. lol

[rox]

No problem. We're all students of astrology in different parts of the library. lol

thanks for putting me at ease.
:happy:

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Ha. Looks like everyone else got to this before I could get back. At least you fell into good hands. :D

[agarth]

Hi,

There have been many excellent responses to your question here, but I just wanted to add that Valens is using not just an elemental grouping, but also a grouping according to sect. Sect refers to the time of day or night. For a more complete picture, three planets belong to the diurnal (daytime) sect: Sun, Saturn and Jupiter. Another three belong to the nocturnal (night) sect: Moon, Venus and Mars.

So there are actually two diurnal triplicities: Fire and Air
and two nocturnal triplicities: Earth and Water.

Fire - Sun(day), Jupiter(night), Saturn(participating). These are the three dirunal planets. Sun has domicile (Leo) and exaltation (Aries) in Fire Signs. Jupiter has domicile (Sagittarius). Saturn is merely a diurnal planet

Air - Saturn(day), Mercury(night), Jupiter (participating). Saturn is diurnal, Mercury is neutral, but also mutable and convertible and takes on the qualities of whichever planet he is with, thus he becomes diurnal. Jupiter is diurnal. Saturn has domicile (Aquarius) and exaltation (Libra) in Air signs. Mercury has domicile (Gemini). Jupiter is diurnal.

Water - Venus(day), Mars (night), Moon(participating). All three planets are nocturnal, and the essential dignities (dignities by sign location) are quite evenly spread. Venus is exalted in Pisces, Mars has domicile in Scorpio and Moon has domicile in Cancer.

Earth - Venus(day), Moon(night), Mars(participating). The same goes here. Venus rules Taurus, Moon is exalted in Taurus and Mars is exalted in Capricorn.

I'm sure someone else has mentioned this, but these ancient astrologers most often used the triplicity rulers indicators of time cycle of approximately 28 years of each person's life. Most often using the triplicity rulers for what I call "the light in charge". For instance, if you were born during the day, Valens would have looked at the triplicity rulers of sign that the Sun occupied. So, if the Sun was in Gemini, Saturn would rule the first 28 years of life, Mercury the second 28 years and Jupiter would rule the rest. He would then give a prognostication based on the position, dignity and condition of the planet by aspect. Thus if Saturn were in Aries in the 6th house (a cadent house, considered weak by Valens) squared by Mars, he would have seen struggle, difficulty and contention in the first 28 years of life. If Mercury was in Virgo in the 11th trined by the Moon in Taurus, he would probably have seen good fortune from 28-56 years, as well as a fortunate marriage (It looks like I'm using a Scorpio rising chart for this example), as the Moon, representing women, would be exalted in the 7th house of Marriage. If Jupiter were in Leo in the 10th, he would also consider this a very fortunate period, more than likely of receiving the fruits of previous labors.

I have been a student of Valens, and have used this technique quite often. It is very effective. Hope this adds an extra dimension that compliments the already excellent responses you have received.

[rox]

agarth, your explanation makes a lot of sense and it seems so simple! i am very grateful to you, the fog starts to lift a bit.

[agarth]

Glad to be able to help. Good luck with Valens!

[dr. farr]

Valens used a system for determining periods of time relative to the planets, and the term for planets used in this way is "chronocrator"; other Hellenists used variations of these periods, and the Persians developed further in this direction, from which the term firdaria (for these periods of time) came into use in the Middle Ages.

In Vedic astrology these same time periods are called "dasa periods", and several approaches have been developed to this matter; "dasas" are a major element of Vedic astrology to this day...