Where is my diploma ??

[dtoffe]

Hi folks, here I am with a personal horary question. I've read something about horary, John Frawley's True Astrology and some bits of Lilly's Christian Astrology, but this is the first time I'm faced with an actual challenge.
By June 2005 I was living in my parents' home and moved to my own, recently purchased home. I moved the most important things in the first days, but many things were left at my parents' home and I carried them as needed to my new home.
Some day I got a cilindrical plastic case with my university diploma within... did I really took it to my home ?? Actually I'm not sure, but now I can't find it, and that is an important piece of paper !!
Now I'm trying with an horary question, I asked today, 26 January 2007, at 15:47 local time, in the city of Mar del Plata, Argentina, Time Zone BZT/S, Long 57º 33' W, Lat 38º 00' S. With this I got Moon at 16º 31' Taurus and Asc 22º 14' Taurus for the question chart.
The first I see is that the cusp of the 3rd house 'of the documents' is in Cancer, and the Moon is in the 12th of the 'secret and closed places'. From being the Moon so close and in the same sign as the Asc which represents myself, I guess that the item is very hidden, but close to me.
But the Moon is also squared to Saturn in 3rd !! :(
My signifier is Venus, ruler of Asc, in the 9th in square to the Moon and also in opposition to Saturn, this seems a bit hard. 4th house cusp of 'my home' is in Virgo and Mercury is also in 9th, square Moon and opposition Saturn, close but not conjunct to Venus.
I feel stuck here, I don't grasp from that all where my precious documents could be. Being the Moon approaching the Asc I feel like they are about to appear somewere, but the squares to Mercury and Venus in 9th and to Saturn in 3rd pretty worry me.
I hope some more knowledgeable folk can help me with hints, I promise to give a pretty feedback as soon as I (hopefully) find it.

Cheers !!

Daniel

[wintersprite1]

Now I'm trying with an horary question, I asked today, 26 January 2007, at 15:47 local time, in the city of Mar del Plata, Argentina, Time Zone BZT/S, Long 57º 33' W, Lat 38º 00' S. With this I got Moon at 16º 31' Taurus and Asc 22º 14' Taurus for the question chart.

I hope some more knowledgeable folk can help me with hints, I promise to give a pretty feedback as soon as I (hopefully) find it.

Cheers !!

Daniel


As for knowledgable folks.... they haven't found this post yet, so I guess you get me:p

The first thing is that I have a different chart for the data you provided. I have double and tripled checked the data and we have different Asc.

What I found is that the Asc is a bit early at 4 degrees Gemini. There are various speculations that the question may be tampered with or that it wasn't concentrated on fully... that's okay, I still see a strong theme going on here.

Asc Gemini is ruled by Mercury, your Significator. Mercury is found in the 9th house (appropriate with higher learning) Though the "newer" planets are not used in Horary, it would still be prudent to at least acknowledge that Neptune is conjunct Mercury.... Hmmm, fuzzy thinking on your part. The diploma can be found in the third, but the lord of the Cusp is the Sun and there is no aspect happening to it for awhile. Note that Saturn is in the 3rd in Detriment and rx and opposes Mercury. The 3rd and the 9th symbolize trips and with Saturn there, I would say it was left behind. Also, we can look to the 2nd house (movable objects) to find the Diplomas Significator. The cusp is Cancer, so the sig is the Moon in the 12th. By taking your sig and placing it on the Asc we find the Moon is now in the 4th house... the home of your Father or childhood home. Note that Mercury and Saturn being in opposition create a Tsquare to the Moon in the 12th, so the document is hidden. With Neptune's strong conjunct Mercury, I would say that it is hidden in your memory. With a little thinking it will come to you.

TK

[Ruby 2]

Hi Dan....just a quickie....have you tried looking under the bed?
Your home as well as parents?

Ruby

[dtoffe]

I believe the worst of all is discovering that the atlas I'm using right now is wrong !! You are right wintersprite1, the timezome should be GMT -3 but the atlas has it as GMT -2 and I didn't checked that before.
Your appreciation regarding Mercury conjunct Neptune (pretty close at 23' apart) is quite meaningful, as I'm completely confused about it, I'm not sure whether I took it with me or not and I've searched even in the kitchen closets and the car trunk. I even got the timezone wrong !!

wintersprite1 said (how do I put pretty quotes like yours?): "By taking your sig and placing it on the Asc we find the Moon is now in the 4th house... the home of your Father or childhood home."

I was aware of derived houses, but this is new to me, you took the sig planet and moved it to exact conjunction to the Asc ? More things to learn... :)

Of course I agree with your interpretation of the T square between Mer/Nep, Sat and Moon, now I believe it's more likely that I left it behind at my parents home, but I've already searched in the obvious places.

Ruby said: "Hi Dan....just a quickie....have you tried looking under the bed? Your home as well as parents?"

Under my bed there is nothing but a few lints, I keep the room mostly clean. But at my parents' home, well, the place is packed of old things that they don't like to throw away, even the room that I used two years ago, so it's likely that I've been searching very close to it without noticing.
But I can say in advance that I'm sure there are 'things' under the bed, and I haven't searched there yet. I believe there is a rolled tapestry and a traveling suitcase there, I'll check that place today in the evening.

Cheers !!

Daniel

[wintersprite1]

Maybe someone that has timing figured out will jump in and help. The Sun being the logical Significator for the documents is VOC (if it is called that with the Sun) The next event indicators will be when it sextiles Jupiter (has to do with higher learning) then crosses into the 9th house (higher learning) and finally is conjunct with Mercury (you) Any one want to take a guess on when it will be found?

I am guessing on the 13th day from when the question was asked... when the Sun is conjunct in degrees with Mercury.

TK

[wintersprite1]

wintersprite1 said (how do I put pretty quotes like yours?):

Daniel


I forgot to answer this, but it is your fault... you said wintersprite and Pretty in the same sentence, and I got distracted!! :34:

On the bottom of this post you will see a box to click that says, "quote". Click on that and the entire post will be included in your message. To pick out a particular piece, erase everything else. Be sure to leave the bracketed QUOTE in the beginnning and end of what you are quoting.

I believe, I haven't tried it yet, that you can highlight what you want quoted and click on the quote button then.

TK

[Ruby 2]

Hi Dan
I'm using Moon as significator of diploma ruler of second house. You said diploma in plastic container....so I think Moon okay for rulership here.

I reckon it's more likely to be in your parent's home as significator isn't in angular house. PtFortune is intercepted in third house....could it be in a siblings possession or room?
Directions by sign Taurus - South by East
by element Earth - South
by house 12th - East, South East
Earth - low down or at floor level.

Hope this helps a bit more.

Ruby

[dtoffe]

I've found it !!!
First the story: yesterday afternoon I took my parents for shopping since my father can't drive now because of a hand injury, so after that we got to their home to drink a coffe.
I took the time to search again taking into account the advices and started looking under my bed. It was mostly empty, but then I was almost lying on the floor and, only from that special perspective, I could find the pesky little plastic bag.
It was under a little writing desk without drawers, in a little shelf under the top of the desk. The bag was plastic but white instead of grey as I expected, and not of cilyndrical shape, since the documents were not tightly bound. I don't recall exactly, but it's even posible that I had seen the bag before without relating it to my documents.
Ruby's hints are quite correct. the desk is on the south east wall, and the bag is only visible from earth level, think of you staring at the top of a table but from below.
Now let's see the chart for the finding: same data as before except date and time is 27 January 2007 17:30 local time, hopefully I got the timezone right this time :) The hour is not exact (I was all too happy to look for a clock), but it could be at most +- 5 minutes.
Two aspects come quickly: the Moon is almost exactly on the Asc, and the Sun is in antiscia to the Part Of Fortune. Now that I see, the Moon is out of the square to Saturn, and it's also in trine (wide orb) to both Sun and PF. The Asc is 'early', but keep in mind that this is not a chart for a question.
I'm wondering how do you clean all that to make better judgements, I mean, I was all too confused when looking at my question chart, what is important there ??
I cleaned both charts from modern planets and kept only the classic, trying to grasp the essence of this technique.
In the question chart, Sun (sig of the docs) is trine to the Asc, and Moon (sig of moveable objects) is trine to PF. Both Sun and Saturn are falling and in mutual reception, Saturn is retrograde, and Moon is exalted in Taurus, although in the 12th house.
It's a mix of good and bad, and I can't understand what is most important and what is not. I would like to receive some bibliographical recommendations to enhance my ability.

Thanks you for your help, I think I'll be hanging around here often as this is a wonderful place to share this kind of experiences. There are not horary astrologers in my city, I guess there are very few in the whole country, it's good to be connected with other students or practitioners.

Cheers !!!

Daniel

[dtoffe]

Ooops... I got one wrong, antiscia is between mirrored places in respect to the 0º Cancer - 0º Capricorn axis, and I took mirrored places respect of the Asc - Dsc axis. Forget that ona please.

Cheers,

Daniel

[wintersprite1]

Ruby's hints are quite correct. the desk is on the south east wall, and the bag is only visible from earth level, think of you staring at the top of a table but from below.
Daniel


Woohoo Ruby!!!:banana:


Now let's see the chart for the finding: same data as before except date and time is 27 January 2007 17:30 local time, hopefully I got the timezone right this time :) The hour is not exact (I was all too happy to look for a clock), but it could be at most +- 5 minutes.
Daniel


This goes back to the common Astrologist's mistakes. The question did not clarify how far away the parent's home is and I didn't ask and made a wrong assumption. I incorrectly ASSUMED the parents were in a different town and it would be a time consuming problem. So, I will go back to the chart and try to figure the time in hindsight... obviously, what I took as days will break down into hours and or minutes instead. :o Note to myself... ask questions.


Thanks you for your help, I think I'll be hanging around here often as this is a wonderful place to share this kind of experiences. There are not horary astrologers in my city, I guess there are very few in the whole country, it's good to be connected with other students or practitioners.

Daniel

This is a great place to have found and hang out. I only started with Horary 5 weeks ago. The people on the board have been most helpful and patient in helping out this novice!! Thank you Daniel for sharing your question and outcome with us.

TK

[wintersprite1]

Okay,

New approach with the timing.

You are Signified by Mercury (ruler of the first) found in the 9th. Using the Lord of the 3rd (documents) The Sun is in the 8th. For the document to become in your possession, the Sun needs to get to your second house (in this case, the 10th... 2 houses from you. The degrees of the Sun to the cusp of the 10th are 36 degrees and 26 minutes. 36 minus 24 (one day) leaves 12. The 12 then breaks down to 1 hour and 20 minutes. So we are at 0ne day, one hour, and 20 minutes. We need to add back in the 26 minutes that the Sun was originally in and we have one day, one hour, and 46 minutes til the document is in your posession. The original question was asked on Jan 26th at 15:47. Add the one day... Jan 27th at 15:47 then the one hour, 16:47 then the 46 minutes.... and we have Jan 27th at 17:33.

OMG, that worked :eek:

TK

[Ruby 2]

Have only just seen your latest post on page 2....I've been racking my brains all morning. The nearest I could get to was 17 hours + 17 minutes, (Moon's applying conjunction to Dan's 4 degree Asc.)
Have even been brushing up on John Frawley's article on timing. He says there has to be an applying aspect in the first place between significators....separating aspects show what has already happened.
I really do think you have to go with what you feel sometimes, and I suppose this comes with experience.
Unusual bit of deduction there TK....shall be making a note of it to go over later when I have more time.

Hi Dan....so glad you found it....here are a selection of books you may find interesting -

The Horary Textbook....John Frawley
Horary Astrology Rediscovered....Olivia Barclay
(I believe John Frawley was a student of hers)
Horary Astrology.....Derek Appleby
Simplified Horary Astrology....Ivy Jacobson-Goldstein
Horary Astrology and the Judgement of Events......Barbara Watters

I've enjoyed all of these books, but my all time favourite is Anthony Louis's Horary Astrology Plain and Simple.

You say you have William Lilly's Christian Astrology, but in my personal opinion, life is too short as far as this book is concerned. (Not that I would ever part with my copy!)
And of course where would we be today without this legacy?


John Frawley's article on timing can be found at www.skyscript.co.uk (http://www.skyscript.co.uk)

Best regards,
Ruby

[Ruby 2]

The bag was plastic but white instead of grey as I expected, and not of cilyndrical shape, since the documents were not tightly bound. I don't recall exactly, but it's even posible that I had seen the bag before without relating it to my documents.


Hi Dan, this could be the 'fuzzy' mind TK mentioned.....Your Asc Mercury in exact conjunction with Neptune!

Outer planets are never used in traditional Horary, although J.Frawley has said that if it is looking right at you in a blatant and arrogant manner :cool: (my words I'm afraid) then it can be taken into consideration.

Ruby

[dtoffe]

The degrees of the Sun to the cusp of the 10th are 36 degrees and 26 minutes. 36 minus 24 (one day) leaves 12. The 12 then breaks down to 1 hour and 20 minutes. So we are at 0ne day, one hour, and 20 minutes.


This puzzles me. How do you break 36 degrees into 24 hours plus 1 hour and 20 minutes ??? I mean, shouldn't it be 24 hours plus 12 hours.... ???

Regarding the timing, the most I dare to guess is the time it takes the Moon (as signifier of moveable items) to enter Gemini, the sign of the querent signifier. At 17º 06' Taurus, it takes another 12º 54' to reach Gemini, which very roughly translates to something like 24 or 25 hours and is quite close.

But then, I acknowledge this is "back timing", I mean, after the outcome of the question is known. If I were still ignorant of the outcome, the most likely I would have guessed is some 32 hours, until the Moon reaches the Asc at 4º 23' Gemini.

Ruby proposed some 17 hours, if I understood correctly, he meant until reaching the applying orb of conjunction, some 6 or 7 degrees before partil, is this right ??

Thanks Ruby for the suggested books !! As for the site at skyscript, it's full of interesting articles and examples, I've just finished the one on Lilly and the alchemist, very nice. The whole section on horary is wonderful.

One more thing is the influence of planet speed and direction. Sometimes a retrograde planet is a good sign, and the speed is important in timing also, but I don't know how to get the relative speed.

So, yet more things to learn... :)

Cheers !!

Daniel

[wintersprite1]

This puzzles me. How do you break 36 degrees into 24 hours plus 1 hour and 20 minutes ??? I mean, shouldn't it be 24 hours plus 12 hours.... ???

. So, yet more things to learn... :)

Daniel


Looks like I puzzled everyone:( My reasoning was to break down to the smallest values. First find days, then hours, then minutes. Okay, I am new at this and have a retro Mercury in the 12th... One of the more experienced members here has been babysitting this thread for me. I puzzled them too! But, I was told I went about reading the chart "incorrectly" and gave me information on how it was to be done, so I will attempt again later today and give the details of how and why.

TK:59:

[Ruby 2]

But then, I acknowledge this is "back timing", I mean, after the outcome of the question is known. If I were still ignorant of the outcome, the most likely I would have guessed is some 32 hours, until the Moon reaches the Asc at 4º 23' Gemini.

Ruby proposed some 17 hours, if I understood correctly, he meant until reaching the applying orb of conjunction, some 6 or 7 degrees before partil, is this right ??



Hi Dan...I've got to say I am pretty useless at timing.
How I came by 17 hours 17 minutes was adding the 12 hours 54 minutes it took for Moon to reach conjunction of Gemini and the 4 hours 23 minutes it took for Moon to actually reach your ascendant.

I wish somebody more knowledgable of timing could come to the rescue here.

Glad you enjoyed Skyscript....so much going on there.

Ruby.

[dtoffe]

Hi Dan...I've got to say I am pretty useless at timing.
How I came by 17 hours 17 minutes was adding the 12 hours 54 minutes it took for Moon to reach conjunction of Gemini and the 4 hours 23 minutes it took for Moon to actually reach your ascendant.

I wish somebody more knowledgable of timing could come to the rescue here.


So it's ok, you took it as a symbolic movement, like the symbolic movement in directions, and I took the actual movement of the Moon, more like in transits. I don't know which one is more appropiate or works better.

Glad you enjoyed Skyscript....so much going on there.
Ruby.

The examples on horary regarding lost items are very clear and show the use of many techniques. The articles are very well written, the design is clean and nice to the eyes, a good work indeed. If they add content regularly I'll have to visit them often.
The only thing I miss is a section of articles on Rectification, which I see as a very difficult and important issue, since both my parents are uncertain about their time of birth and it's very frustrating to me not being able to draw their chart.
Ohh... and this site is very pretty also !! I've read most of the horary examples and they are very good (just to avoid any jealousy... :D)

Cheers,

Daniel

[Ruby 2]

The only thing I miss is a section of articles on Rectification, which I see as a very difficult and important issue, since both my parents are uncertain about their time of birth and it's very frustrating to me not being able to draw their chart.
Ohh... and this site is very pretty also !! I've read most of the horary examples and they are very good (just to avoid any jealousy... :D

Hi Dan I'm sure if you contacted Deb (Houlding) at Skyscript she'd point you in the right direction for articles etc. regarding Rectification.

Yes I agree....AstrologyWeekly is also a very good site....being very much a novice I feel I can post here and not feel at all intimidated. A big compliment is that! :)

Regards, Ruby.

[astrobhadauria]

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=494&stc=1&d=1172772537
Vedic Astrology(lahari) Clearly describe full matter,without more calculations.Fifth house is the House of education,and third house is the house of profit from fifth (Education)in 3rd House Saturn having conection,and the lord of 3rd Moon in 12 House,Rahu (Astrology) having full strength of Venus (female) to describe the lost item from 12th.