The Shadow

[Shining Ray]

I got a new book a couple of weeks ago Astrology for Lovers by Liz Greene. It is mostly a Sun Sign book really. I have only read the chapter on my own sign Pisces, but it does make some very interesting points.

The Shadow side of Pisces is that we make everyone feel Guilty. I never really thought about this before and I had to take a long hard look at myself, and I probably do make people feel guilty at times. I have Sun in Pisces, Moon in Pisces, Mercury in Pisces and Moon/Mercury square my Neptune.

My mother always used to act victimised a lot of the time. If she was upset by something she would say things like "everything I do for you, and all I ask is for you to do one thing, and I get face pulled at me." or "I am not well, and you are not helping me. I am sick and you should all be helping out" you know the sort of thing which makes you feel guilty like you haven't been considerate or helpful and you have been selfish for not helping. Me and my siblings would get the tears, and the tantrums from my mother like we had done something really terrible. We were all very good kids most of us are Virgo Risings funnily enough, not that this ascendant means you are a good kid but we were well behaved. Yet if we said the slightest thing, or said no to something we would get screamed at by my mum and then the tears would flow, and she would make us feel really bad. Even though we had done nothing wrong.

But I have strong Pisces in my chart, and I have been becoming a lot more aware of how I express this energy. Maybe I express it like my mother and make others feel guilty. O.K I admit it is not maybe I make others feel guilty, I do make others feel guilty at times. I don't do it on purpose but I do need to face this shadow side of myself more.

Here's more information from my book on the Pisces shadow.

In ordinary situations, Pisces tends to be the victim. We can meet this figure in many Pisceans - they are the one's taken advantage of, used, bled white for money and sympathy, made to feel obligated through their tendency to feel guilty for every body's sins. It is almost inevitably the Pisces who stays with the violent husband, nurses the schizophrenic wife, supports the ailing mother, gives up this and that or the other thing to help somebody else. It is sometimes very hard to tell if these are the noblest or the silliest of human beings; and whether they are truly saints or wield a tremendous power through making the other feel hopelessly obliged. Nobody has quite as much power as the martyr.

It shows how much power this powerless sign can wield. For passivity is a dangerous animal, since the will has to go someplace. An every so often you see it break out.

The Pisces is all of us, that's why he's so often the victim. It's exaggerated but it's there. Watch the pattern of a Pisces life, and you will see the reflection of many man's distorted, exaggerated, but a true mirror. It's said that Pisceans make wonderful healers, priest, physicians, counsellor's. This is undoubtedly true, for they have the innate compassion wisdom and insight. They can also heal because they have been wounded, and because there isn't much in nature that they haven't already glimpsed in themselves.

But too passive a Pisces is a dangerous creature. The dark fish is bound to break sooner or later, either in genuine psychosis, or in self - destruction whether the quick or slow kind like drug addiction or alcoholism - or in the subtle destruction of another. Unless the Pisces has a more aggressive ascendant like Aries or Leo, or a strong Mars, it's all under the surface, for Pisces is a genius at undercurrents.

Pisces is sometimes called the sign of self undoing. And it is important to remember that it's truly self undoing with Pisces, never the undoing of others. Pisces has such a wealth of talent and vision that he is one of the most blessed of man. Yet so often his life is a failure. And it is because of his shadow.

It was a very interesting take on the Pisces sign and very true for me. The thing is the very things I hated about my mother (I Love my mum) was her acting the victim making others feel guilty for her unhappiness. But she is acting out the projection of myself.

How I experienced my mother is the reflection of my inner self. Sometimes I don't realize I am acting the victim because it is so ingrained inside me I just don't recognize it. Other times when I want people to do something for me I consciously act out my weaker side. I am now coming to an age were I want to stop this behavior I don't want to make my partner or child feel guilty. It is not fair.

Oh well I don't know hey, you grow up and realize you are just like your parents. :eek: ;)

[lilllybelle]

I wonder what would be soul reason for this behavior in pisces? Such as geminis are said to have a case of expertness or know-it-allness because they were terribly rigid, stubborn and close minded in past lives ( which believe it or not, might of actually been very positive and benificial for them in that life). So I wonder what prompts pisces to potentially place guilt on others. There has to be a karmic reason for it.

[wintersprite1]

I don't do it on purpose but I do need to face this shadow side of myself more.




Oooh, Shadow work is so much fun!! There is so much more than just the Sun signs.... Try Googling: Jung Astrology and then look up: Richard Idemon.

It will keep you busy, but you won't be bored. It takes Astrology to a whole new level.

TK

[jagetoile]

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[jagetoile]

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[moving towards hermes]

Hello, this is my first post...

I think, the signifier of the shadow depends on the chart. Initially as one begins to do his or her inner work "the shadow" may refer to all those things one is unconscious about, and later this becomes refined.
Speaking as one with many planets in the personal quadrant of the natal chart, I once thought the shadow was represented by the 7th or 12th house cusp -- but have seen it pop out in the antiscion of my own midheaven! Now that isn't always true -- sometimes I am more and less conscious of those qualities. Anyway it can vary depending on where a person is at present.. People develop and grow.

[Neptune Rising]

My mother always used to act victimised a lot of the time. If she was upset by something she would say things like "everything I do for you, and all I ask is for you to do one thing, and I get face pulled at me." or "I am not well, and you are not helping me.

This reminds me of something I read somewhere about how your moon somehow reflects how you see your mother. I too have moon in Pisces, and my mum is a Pisces Sun. After my parents divorced when I was about 6, my mum became depressed for quite a few years. And the guilt thing was definately there, took me ages to shake that off and unlearn what I learned - that I could do very little right. Not her fault though, thats just the way things were and both our evolutionary paths at the time. I also went through a stage of making people around me feel guilty, I don't do it so much now I'm consciously aware of it.

I guess to get to the light side you have to go through the shadow, and incorporate both shadow and light, both sides of the same coin to make a whole.

Neptune

[jagetoile]

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[moving towards hermes]

Jagetoile, gosh - i don't know! Seems like it would be hard to say as the shadow can encompass so much. But I am equally a novice in astrology and Jungian psychology.

[AquarianEssence]

In ordinary situations, Pisces tends to be the victim.
I have to disagree. I would say the ordinary or normal Pisces gives herself in selfless service to humanity for the most worthy of causes. There is then, no need to be a victim because one is serving self when serving others, as we are all one.

The places I would look for the unconscious are the 12th house, the Moon who's light is shadowy and where unconscious memory is stored, the 4th house and most importantly Lilith, BML, the place where the Moon is furthest away. Perhaps the Sun could shed light also since that is the source of all shadows on earth and provides the light that the Moon reflects. I think I'd add the antiscia also since that is the perfect mirror.

I think a healthy dose of Virgo working with Scorpio prohibits too much from remaining hidden. Virgo tends to dissect, analyse and assimilate everything in sight and Scorpio wants to dig deep to uproot everything for transformation.

[jagetoile]

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[Shining Ray]

Hi Jag,

I do recognize my shadow side. I am aware it, I don't see myself as playing the victim as much as my mother did, but then again maybe it is still a side of myself I don't want to see. (but lately with my progressed Moon in Aries I have been very assertive with people, probably because I get angrier more easily lately. I have had major problems defending my self in life, but I quite like having my progressed Moon in Aries, I am feeling a lot tougher at the moment :D .

Pisces is not a weak sign by a long shot. As much as Pisceans can be compassionate and kind they can also be deceptive, and play on other people. Every sign as a light and dark side. I tend to fall somewhere in the middle. As I am learning to be more and more aware of myself, I can express myself better and make different choices in how I react. But like you I don't see the shadow side as wholly "bad" the two sides light and dark need to be integrated in to the personality. Deny your darker side and it will just be projected back to you from somewhere else. But with projection you can't always blame every single thing in life on projection. I wouldn't like to say that people who got murdered or raped and beaten had their dark side projected back to them because some victims are only children.

With Murderers, rapists and evil people in general where did there light side go why does their darker shadow take over the personality completely. Are people born evil or is it their childhood experiences to blame. I have been reading Liz Greenes Dark of the Soul, but up to now I haven't found it helpful in really being able to distinguish just by looking at a chart who is more prone to living out their darker side. Dr Phil's chart for example has loads of Pluto/8th house aspects yet he lives out his Pluto nature through helping other's psychologically with issues of abuse, drugs, obsessions. I believe the soul guides the chart, maybe a soul who is less evolved than Dr Phil with his chart would act out the darker plutonian side for the worse. There are times I act out the best in my chart and there have been plenty of times I have acted out the worse possible expression of my chart.

I have been looking at murderers charts one's with birth times and charts that don't have birth times and yes there are hard difficult aspects like we all have in our charts. A Killer's chart I was looking at last night who killed prostitutes he had Venus in Aquarius in an applying square to Mars in Taurus, Venus and mars in hard aspect to Uranus (it was a T.Square). The South Node is in Aries the ruler Mars was at the apex of the t.square. But what I am trying to say is how many people have these difficult aspects and will astrology ever be able to tell these darker personalities from looking at the chart. I am beginning to think it is not possible. Astrology is an excellent psychological tool but I don't think it is deterministic, although to contradict myself I do believe certain things in life are fated. But anyway in the killer's case he had a bad childhood, did this make the difference or was he a dark soul to begin with.

But then how can any of us be too judgemental, in a past life when our soul was a less evolved who knows what type of crimes we comitted or evil acts we may have done. In my composite book it tells you how to read the chart from a past life perspective but you have to read your south node from a darker perspective to get an idea on what you may have been like in a past life. Here is a quick quote from the book.

The key point is that squares to the South Node often correlate with vextatious situations in which our own blindness and error plays a large role. Blindness and error are part of life, and we all sucumb to them. And always remember one of the cardianl insights into evolutionary astrology. You were even dumber in the past! :D These lapses should not be greeted with guilt or shame, only with the recognition that we are wounded, we run the risk of repeating old patterns, and that now there are better choices.

It is a tough subject talking about the shadow side, with projection denial, avoidance. Half the time I don't know what I am projecting. Like when I was in an abusive relationship all the anger and abuse that was directed towards me is this my karma, was I abusive in a past life. Is it my projected anger, I project because I have difficulty expressing anger and did I use my partner as a release for me. This is why it is so complicated. I do beleive though that nothing happens in life unless it shows the potential in the birth chart good or bad.

[jagetoile]

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[Shining Ray]

Hi Jag,

Yes you gain a lot of information from charts, I agree that to be able to read the chart better you need a little information from the person about their background. So you can try and judge what soul level they are at. I have been reading a lot of evololutionary books lately. And for example I have Pluto in the 2nd house but I don't see myself as materialistic as my sister who has a 2nd house Pluto even though we were brought up the same she has always been more materialistic than I have been. When I was younger I did want to marry someone rich who would take care of me, but now I am older I have gained more awareness, and I realize through Astrology I need to be more self sufficient. Or use my skills and talents (Pluto 2nd) to help others. But what I am getting at is how do you really know how Pluto in 2nd house is operating for the individual. Most of us who are on this forum do have a more growth orientated outlook and a lot of us are spiritual, so the way we use our energies is a lot more different than the way a thug or gangster who has a material selfish attitude would use the same planetary energy. One person could be ruthless in attaining money with a 2nd house Pluto while another is digging deep into their resources and skills and generating money to help people. Without knowing some details it is hard to judge the natal chart - But the general themes and life path and emotional state, thinking patterns and love life are represented in the Astrological chart.

[jagetoile]

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[Shining Ray]

Hi Jag,

The houses in Astrology do cover a lot, the 2nd house alone covers as you have said money, self worth, our values, skills, talents, security, what we collect and own. I like your description of the 2nd house meaning - what we gain, which in my case is power to be self-sustaining and yes relentless in changing my value system. Money is just one aspect of the 2nd house. :)

Astrologically looking for our shadow side or unconscious side, I have read that any planet in the 4th house shows the subconscious urge behind all action, the Moon natural ruler of the 4th also gives a clue to our natural instincts.

[jagetoile]

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[AquarianEssence]

...you spoke of anticia, this is the first time that i've learned the "unconscious" side of anticia. it seems to me that anticion, to some extent, resembles the "declinaition---parallel, contra parallel", do you think the "parallel/contra parallel" as conscious/unconscious as well?

Perhaps, I hadn't thought about that possiblilty. There are many things we do unconsciously and combining two bodies either through parallel or antiscia is sort of like blood pressure rising without any conscious thought or effort on our part or like our bodies repairing the days damage while we sleep. Both parallel and antiscia are not physical bodies, so they are more an instinctive or unconscious invisible influence until we notice them. My husband and I share Sun antiscia and there is no better person for the other to expose what is done without thought, especially with regards to ego or any Sun connection. I should have had opportunity to experience thoroughly, contra-antiscia Sun with my 4th baby but as soon as he officially moved into the adult world he cut himself out of my life, very much like the negative manifistation of an opposition. So now my baby is in the shadows of our past, for now at least.

it's very contradictory experience when i posed the same questions in other forums. some say that the 4th is unconscious, others say that we are conscious of the angular houses. i don't know which to follow.

I say that because the Moon, I believe, is responsible for stored memory of all history, even before birth. She and Cancer is responsible for the emotional reaction that we don't understand, because it's connected to an experience we have pushed back into the subconscious which I don't really se as being different from the unconscious. Everything we instinctively do is connected to Moon. She really has no light of her own, she takes what is given to her, right or wrong, and stores it. An example of this would be an irrational fear of heights stemming from a long forgotten, dismembered, memory of falling from high places or even high status. Once we can become conscious of its origin we can remember and heal it. The 4th is where we deal with unconditional love and the dark night of the soul if that love has been distorted or withheld.

I think our shadow is our fears. Our fears are forgotten love that has become distorted and turned in on itself, kind of like rheumatoid arthritis where the body attacks itself. Once we face them we can see what they once were and let love back into its rightful place.

then there is the point of aspects. it is well know that in "opposition" aspect, the party undesirable we "project" to other people---unconsciously. then what about other conlictual aspects?

and the 1st/7th house, don't we project the 7th?


The opposition is only like this when we fail to see ourselves in the other and that we are one. The intention of the opposition is to blend and compromise, to create synergy not to oppose or project. If we can begin to see each of the 6 axis as partnerships rather than opposing forces I think the idea of evil will dissapear. My ID here is my business name and my descendant sign. I was given that name, I think, because we are entering that age, but I was also aware that it was my descendant sign. I am wearing the compliment to my Leo ascendant which I hold proudly :). And, I would love it if I could build something that I can pass on to my descendants.

The antiscia of the Fixed degrees are square by sign. We can't posess what we love, love can't die, we can't be detached with sex and remain healthy and its pretty hard to invent our value because it will soon be exposed. When we deny these things they are in the shadows waiting to be seen. Anything that is unconscious and projected is the shadow. Perhaps I should have said the antiscia are where we can most easily shed light into the shadows.

[Shining Ray]

I think the 12th house might reflect the shadow, as it is right behind the Ascendant. Some people turn the chart so the 12th house is on the 1st for a past life astrology reading. But not sure how it works or if it is accurate.

[jagetoile]

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[AquarianEssence]

I agree Jag, we think a lot alike. The only difference here is that I don't look at compromise as not fully fullfilling either side. I think its more like taking turns or having some areas for one side and others for the other side. For example, 2 people have different things they like to do, but some that they both like. The compromise is allowing time to do things separately and together so all the needs are met. Libra gets out of balance if she always seeks to please the other, Aries when he only wants to do what he likes rather than allowing the other some space to be different.

The squares are a little more challenging because they don't have the common ground, they require a bit of creativity or just the right blending for harmony. Fire and water don't mix but using the fire in the right way to warm the water can be quite nice, or a steam bath.

I like your statement, "the hidden source of our fears" being the shadow. Well said. :)

[moving towards hermes]

oh, let's not equate shadows with fears alone... that is not a very helpful habit... shadows are not all negative. Often very 'positive' things may be hidden or not at the surface. Things are not bad just because they are dark... and humans have also demonstrated an incapacity to respect all those things of which we are conscious... we like to meddle.
the antiscia are just another facet of the narrative..

[AquarianEssence]

Agreed. All new discovery and invention is waiting for us in the shadows.

[moving towards hermes]

This thread http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4707 was a nice reminder of the fact that there are personal shadows and collective shadows as well. What do you think of the assertion that the 4th house reflects the collective unconscious and the 12th, the universal consciousness?

[Soul Friend]

The places I would look for the unconscious are the 12th house, the Moon who's light is shadowy and where unconscious memory is stored, the 4th house and most importantly Lilith, BML, the place where the Moon is furthest away. Perhaps the Sun could shed light also since that is the source of all shadows on earth and provides the light that the Moon reflects. I think I'd add the antiscia also since that is the perfect mirror.




I absolutely would have to agree with these areas of the 12thH, Moon, 4thH and Lilith or BML. I was prepared to say highlight these exact areas if not mentioned. :)

BTW, Welcome Moving Towards Hermes! :D

[moving towards hermes]

well the shadow is not the same as the unconscious, although it can be a gateway into it... maybe that is the same as a planet in rulership of a sign... ?
what do you think of 'Lilith'? the traditional descriptions seem so sexist.

[Soul Friend]

Many of the new studies in the different celestial bodies I haven't followed but Lilith appeared long enough ago that I heard of some of the buzz to pique my curiosity. As far as sexist descriptions it shouldn't surprise anyone. Groups generalize and compensate with over arching imbalance and it seems people seldom want to find a balanced approach. I think women should be respected but it's silly to think if it was wrong for men to exclude them from a world view, it's equally wrong to do the reverse. This is just a general statement regarding the way the research has been presented.

I think from a different perspective there has also been a bias from the perspective of those who are worldly focused and looking for love. Only recently in the past have people begun to look for spirituality in the larger percentages. Questions people ask are different these days. Traditionalists who refuse to integrate planets past Saturn are ignoring issues of deeper concerns and spiritual development of the individual consciousness, spirituality in general, and the transformation of the will for higher purposes than self.

Just a few thoughts as long as you asked.

[moving towards hermes]

That's a considerably restrained attitude. I even think the descriptions of the Moon are sexist ;)

Do you meet Traditionalists practicing Western astrology? I only encounter that in the West with reference to Horary.
I wonder if the discovery of the Transpersonal planets is correlated historically - even loosely - with the breakdown of spiritualised forms of social order. If so it would be so important for astrologers to begin using the transpersonal planets, because there is no other social or ecological check on rampant materialism. And no way to understand mass propaganda. Or, like you say, to encourage spiritual cultivation...

[jagetoile]

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[AquarianEssence]

Since the 12th can represent what is repressed or hidden I wouldn't think it represents the universal consciousness unless that tends to be repressed. I also couldn't assign the collective to the 4th as 1st choice since it is a personal house. I've read 3rd as conscious, 4th as subconsious, 12 as superconscious. That I could buy, especially knowing myself and my chart. I would put the universal consciousness in the 9th and perhaps the collective unconscious in the 12th. Our superconscious is what connects us to the collective and the 12th is what connects us to the whole.

But I am very tempted to consider the 8th for the collective unconscious. It is the deepest of the signs. It may be that My Moon, Saturn and Lilith are there and that I have it on the 4th but it would make sense that Moon falls there if instead of storing just her own subconscious she is taking on the collective sins of the world. From my Lilith article,

"...It is my observation that Lilith represents all that is repressed, not understood, all that has at one time been pure but became distorted, either by the native or society at large. The native may immersed in the dark or be the source of light in the dark places. Which one can often be seen by the natal aspects and transit events but sometimes the native plays both roles.
Back in 1995 I listened to a tape series loaned to me of the Solar Heart Conference. One of the speakers asked the question,
"What is your greatest fear?"

There was a long pause and suddenly the answer came to me as I waited his next words.

My greatest fear is that, I, as a part of the female half of the species, am responsible for the fall of mankind.
I felt that because I am a woman, I may have inherited the burden of being responsible for all the horrible things humans have done. According to the way my grandpa and all the other Christian ministers I've ever heard preached, Eve was the cause of it all because she disobeyed God and Adam, and because of her we are all born as fallen angels. So through her, I might be responsible for death. I may be responsible for all of the thousands of people killed as the Jews took the promised land, as the Crusaders spread the word of the Gospel, and all of the thousands of Jews killed in the holocaust.



As these thoughts formed in my mind my tears flowed as they never have before, cleansing generations of embedded teachings. This was the beginning of my search for the truth. I know I would never initiate any of those horrible things and my intention is always to do good. I know that this beautiful universe could only have been created with love and truth. But Love, God, what ever power that created all that is, could not, if that energy was love, condemn any part of that creation.
Love unites, it doesn't divide.
Or if it does divide,
it is a prime vibration that can only be divided by one and itself, so it remains whole.
Love is the oneness of all that is.

The speaker continued,
"What if your greatest fear is your most forgotten love?"
Basically, I think he was saying that our greatest fear was originally love and it was pure. But somewhere along the way it got turned backwards, upside down or distorted in some way. So I pondered, what could the story of Eve have been before it got distorted, if that is what happened?
What is the Love that my
Fear wants to reveal? ..."
http://geocities.com/aquarianessence/lightinthedarkness.html

Yes, I would put the collective on the 8th/Scorpio.

[Shining Ray]

Beautiful post Aquarianessance :) , with relation to the unconscious which is the 4th house, I have read the 10th house is the house of the conscious being the opposite of the unconscious 4th house.

The outer planets Uranus, Neptune, Pluto rule the collective energies. I have just looked up the meaning for the 8th house from a psychology Astrology course I was doing (which I need to finish, someone will have lend me some fixed energy and some more cardinal).

Here is what it say for the 8th house:

This house shows the natives dealings with other peopl'es money as a speculator or investor and as being accountable for their money. It is also the deeper psychological house akin to the 4th house, another psychic house. The native begins to understand self through the obstacles in their path, these are to strengthen and push the native along on the quest to "know thyself".

The 8th house is the house of crisis because it shows how the native deals with the crisis of a psychological and spiritual nature. All crisis are psychological and can become spiritual if absorbed into the person's psyche, the lesson learnt. It is also an occult house in that it is an indicater of the level of their psychic and spiritual power.

Unfortunately most astrologers misunderstand the power described here, it means that the person has innate or hidden abilities but must first learn how to use them responsibly before they are allowed to play with them. It is shown in the shaman and mystic traditions whereby the pupil is taught rigorously over many many years how to strengthen their psyche, their will and personality to withstand the rigours of the deep psyche into which they will be called to dwell in as adept master.

It is not safe to dwell in the 8th house psyche unless you have first learnt the rules of how to protect yourself first. This is why Yogi chela (Student) spends most of his or her life doing service for their teacher, to become stable, balanced emotionally and spiritually otherwise they could become psychotic. If they delve into the unconscoius too much without being careful we can become burnt, this manifests as anxiety, dissasociation, depression and the inability to handle day to day activities and responsibilities. The 8th house needs to be taken seriously, it is not 'psychic' but more the house of the 'psyche'.

It must be remembered that sensitive people (psychic) dwell in the unconscious a lof of the time. Many are already psychotic and have many hangups and problems handling personal relationships. When you see a chart with a focus on the 4th, 8th, or 12th house encourage them to take up meditation or tai chi, yoga etc. some form of mental discipline as this is what they need to bring their innate psychic abilities without burning out psychologically.

The 8th house is also the house of kundalini and thus sexuality. This is seen as passion and intensity, driven to experiance the thrills in life especially the sexual orgasm, which is kundalini rising to the base chakra. This is serious sex, definately not casual, there must be depth of passion in experience. The 5th house sex is casual without committment, 8th house is the opposite.

KEY WORDS: passion, intensity, serious sex, transformation, crisis, other people's money, psyche, occult, destructive tendency, power, interest in death, the quest for self knowledge to help balance emotional and psychic disharmony.

Just reading over these words I definately need some psychic balance I have Scorpio, on the I.C the deep unconscious. Neptune in the 4th ruling the 7th and 8th houses. Neptune squares my Moon/Mercury conjunction in Pisces. I have found at times I have been too psychically aware and can pick up too many uncomfortable feelings. My mind can be open to a lot. My Pisces Sun rules the 12th house but opposes my Saturn in Virgo. Along with my south node in Pisces. I have a constant struggle in grounding myself in reality. Luckily with all my earth on the Ascendant I am still developing this grounding of myself NN Virgo, Virgo Ascendant with Saturn conjunct - connected to my Watery Sun.

P.S I will type up the meaning of the 4th, and the 12th house later as it is fitting for this topic. :)

[jagetoile]

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[AquarianEssence]

Beautiful post Aquarianessance :) , with relation to the unconscious which is the 4th house, I have read the 10th house is the house of the conscious being the opposite of the unconscious 4th house...

The outer planets Uranus, Neptune, Pluto rule the collective energies. Thank you. I would say 10th/Saturn/Capricorn is conscience rather than conscious. We aren't always aware of our little devil but he is there spurring us through our conscience unless it is damaged horribly. But I guess he could be conscious.

This looks like a very good course you are taking. I agree with it completely. It's hard for me to distinguish somethimes because I too have Pisces on the 8th and Scorpio on the 4th with Cancer on the 12th. The above quote from my article shows, I think, that Scorpio here brings the collective into my personal subconscious. I think I lived part of my life as if I were repsonsible for the fall of man, as I was taught through the story of Eve, the great mother. The grounding oils like patchouli, sandalwood, rosewood, etc help to ground. I use my High Priestess blend for grounding as do a couple of massage therapists in town.

I tend to think of kundalini, at least when it reaches the summit, as Uranian because of the spastic, electrical nature. Uranus and Pluto do work together though, in my view. Uranus takes what we no longer need and Pluto recycles it. Please do add the 4th and 12th house exerpt.

[Shining Ray]

Sorry Aquarianessance your completely right I got confused with the two meanings of Conscious/Conscience. I looked up the definitions for the meaning of the words and Conscience is probably more associated with the 10th house, and Conscious with the 3rd because the definition for this word says it is concerned with the a part of the mind that is capable of thinking, choosing, perceiving. And like you have stated this is related to the 3rd house.

Meaning Of Conscience

Definition: 1. sense of right and wrong: the sense of what is right and wrong that governs somebody's thoughts and actions, urging him or her to do right rather than wrong
Let your conscience be your guide.

2. obedience to conscience: behaviour according to what your sense of right and wrong tells you is right
campaigning on behalf of prisoners of conscience

3. shared moral viewpoint: a shared concern for moral issues
a social conscience

4. psychoanalysis part of superego: the part of the superego that passes judgments on thought and behaviour to the ego for further consideration

[13th century. Via Old French < Latin conscientia 'consciousness' < conscire 'be conscious', literally 'know thoroughly' < scire 'know']
in all or good conscience

1. while being fair and reasonable

2. used to emphasize that what you are saying is truly the case

on somebody's conscience causing somebody to feel guilty or anxious about something.

Meaning Of Conscious

Definition: 1. awake: awake and responsive to stimuli
He's been seriously injured but he's still conscious.

2. keenly aware: fully appreciating the importance of something
I'm conscious of all that you've done for us.

3. intentional: considered and deliberate, or done with critical awareness
a conscious effort not to lose her temper

4. well-informed: well-informed on issues relating to a particular topic of serious significance ( often used in combination with adverbs )
environmentally conscious

5. concerned with something: aware of and interested in a particular topic ( often used hyphenated in combination )
fashion-conscious
health-conscious

6. psychology functioning with individual's knowledge: relating to or concerned with a part of the mind that is capable of thinking, choosing, or perceiving

noun Definition: psychology area of mind aware of surroundings: the part of the human mind that is aware of the feelings, thoughts, and surroundings

[Late 16th century. < Latin conscius 'knowing' < scire 'know']

[AquarianEssence]

Yes, I think Saturn, 10th and Capricorn for conscience.

[13th century. Via Old French < Latin conscientia 'consciousness' < conscire 'be conscious', literally 'know thoroughly' < scire 'know']

Con=together, scire=know: to know together. He (conscious) knew his wife (subconscious); she conceived and gave birth.

Sun-Leo is obviously Ego-Self who is exalted in Aries, self, who is ruled by Mars, exalted in Capricorn where he is self governed because he has a developed conscience through uniting head (Aries) and heart (Leo), basing his judgments on love of his neighbor as himself. At this time, Saturn has earned the right to rule as given assignment by the Sun. Until that time he is our Satan, accusor and adversary.

[Shining Ray]

All good points Aquarian you certainly know your Astrology. I am glad you cleared up the conscious/Conscience for me, it has helped me to clarify the meanings of the houses ;) .

[Soul Friend]

That's a considerably restrained attitude. I even think the descriptions of the Moon are sexist ;)

Do you meet Traditionalists practicing Western astrology? I only encounter that in the West with reference to Horary.
I wonder if the discovery of the Transpersonal planets is correlated historically - even loosely - with the breakdown of spiritualised forms of social order. If so it would be so important for astrologers to begin using the transpersonal planets, because there is no other social or ecological check on rampant materialism. And no way to understand mass propaganda. Or, like you say, to encourage spiritual cultivation...

Actually I've seen some posts here on this forum where at least one and maybe more don't like to go past Saturn. :confused: This is evident in that they also won't include others in Pattern Configurations. I really find it ironic that before some of these folks were born there were experienced astrologers looking forward to the research to come through and explain Pluto astrologically just after it was discovered in the 20th century. Sybil Leek was one off the top of my head who had a very good grasp on communicating symbolic principles. Chiron discovered in my youth back in the 70s gave me such an incredible surge of curiosity I felt a bit of what was exciting to those alive at the beginning of the Space Age where better telescopes and other equipment and technology had Astrologers waiting with great anticipation and hope. After Barbara Hand Clow released her work I recall assimilating it not without using my own mind because I think she and Martin Lass need their views somehow synthesized, but I devoured the thoughts it generated in me as an Astrologer moved to understand how it could further the motive of helping and guiding with the help of Astrology. :)

[AquarianEssence]

Thank you. It always helps me to solidify and carry to the next step when I write like this too, so thank you for the opportunity.

[moving towards hermes]

I think the 8th is more about knitting or blending the material of the other water houses than it is about the collective unconscious itself.. Good thing we can associate Pluto with that work instead of Mars alone!

Soul Friend it's confusing isn't it?
I wonder if that resistance has anything to do with frustrations related to the linkage of science with technology. It would be nice to keep astrology free of questionable, often destructive technological developments like multibillion dollar technological laboratories... but these need to be understood on their own terms, I think.
What would you recommend by Sybil Leek?

[Soul Friend]

Soul Friend it's confusing isn't it?
I wonder if that resistance has anything to do with frustrations related to the linkage of science with technology. It would be nice to keep astrology free of questionable, often destructive technological developments like multibillion dollar technological laboratories... but these need to be understood on their own terms, I think.
What would you recommend by Sybil Leek?

Bear in mind that she wasn't strictly an Astrologer but more of a renaissance metaphysical ground breaker. It might seem simple and elementary by title but I'm seriously disappointed I didn't pick up a copy from a second hand store I frequent. I was thinking, "Oh, it's been here so long it'll wait for me." Wrong! Nothing else in that section was touched but that and I had seen it less than 2 weeks before I returned to get it. The book is How to be Your Own Astrologer and the great value is the simplicity conveying the Myths behind planetary names that you easily internalize the info. The only example I remember at all was that of Mercury as the Light Bearer describing how the planet carries the message of the nearest planet forward. I saw the Hardcover available on Amazon for $3.95 but I've never purchased anything online other than software downloads and even that keeps me leery. If you see a copy at least take time to pick it up and peruse it. Since it's out of print, I'll wish you...

Happy Hunting!!

Happy Hunting

[Shining Ray]

Here is a 4th house meaning, I am in a lazy mood and can't be bothered typing :D so this is not from the course, I have pasted this off the web. But it makes good reading all the same ;) .



Letter Four (Moon, Cancer, 4th house) is our basic emotional security needs, first
surviving as a baby needing a mother, and then later, as an adult, being the mother
needing someone to baby. Letter Four is the nesting urge, the home, family, rootedness,
holding in and holding on for security. Remember, with strength, they care for others;
with weakness or insecurity, they are clutching for their own security. The instinct is to
feed themselves or to feed others, starting with mother’s milk. It’s the mothering instinct,
care for the helpless infant. And if it’s strong, then the instinct is to feed people. One of
the things I enjoy doing! That’s why I have a house full of people I can feed.
Now: When get to Letter Four, we have completed what we can call the personal
needs, and then we are ready to start the interpersonal area were we are going to begin to
try to be an adult and try to deal with other people as an adult. Up to this point, however,
we’re really concerned with our own personal needs. You can think of this as childhood,
but all of our life we have personal needs. We have to somehow have a place in the life to
do what we want to do (Letter One), to enjoy what we enjoy (Letter two), to learn what
we are curious about (Letter Three), and to provide our basic physical/emotional security
(Letter Four). So this first stage of the Zodiac is young, naïve, the baby side of life, and
yet there’s always that need, that part of us no matter how old we are.

If you get too much emphasis there, you can get a person who is too much caught
up in his or her own needs. You can see that especially when you get a heavy 1st and 2nd
house emphasis—a person who is very absorbed in getting what they need, and may not
be that much aware of other people and their needs. We really start to get socialized with
Letter Three with our brothers and sisters and neighbors and people around us. We
realize that we’re not the only people, and our needs aren’t the only needs in the world.
We have to think of other people. But with Cancer we really go all the way into getting
out of being baby, and being mother some of the time and caring for others. So I consider
Cancer like a fulcrum that is part of the personal needs but also goes into the area of
interpersonal relationships, which carries you right up through Scorpio.
Cancer will pick up on everything and can’t let go of anything if their emotional
security is tied up to it. That includes collecting pounds on the body as a shield against
the world. Eating is a basic reassurance that we are going to survive ("At least I won’t
starve"), satisfying that daily dependency need. Letter Four also includes the memories
that are put down in the unconscious, habitual patterns that we build into our functioning
so that we don’t have to stop and think about it anymore. Water is the unconscious, and
usually the unconscious is where real power is. If there is a conflict between the
conscious and the unconscious, the unconscious is going to win. That is why people do
mantras and all those little positive sayings because they are trying to reach the
unconscious where the real power is. It’s like hypnosis and telling ourselves over and
over that every day in every way things are going to get better and better. You can’t fool
the unconscious, and if you have genuine faith at the unconscious level, everything works
out. You can verbalize that everything is ok at the conscious level, but unconsciously be a
worrier, be anxious, insecure, fearing that things will go wrong and you will have all
kinds of problems. So it pays to get in touch with your unconscious, to get it working for
you instead of against you. The unconscious is not our enemy. It is a part of ourselves.
It’s like an iceberg; 9/10ths of it is below the surface of conscious awareness. So water in
our chart (water signs, water planets, water houses) need about three extra looks. Take an
extra look at anything water because there may be unconscious things going on there that
are inviting situations in the world, events in the world, people into your life. And you
keep saying, "Why is this happening to me? I don’t want it!" and yet the unconscious
keeps bringing it to you because you did invite it on the unconscious level.

So that is where there is a conflict between the conscious and unconscious,
the conscious is going after this while the
unconscious is producing something else that we didn’t know we
wanted. When we get in touch with our unconscious, we can find a positive way of
meeting that desire. It is ourselves, our own inner desires that we are talking about. As
long as it is pushed into the unconscious, it may be happening to us in ways we do not
like, at times not of our choosing, times when it seems frustrating and disturbing. If we
are aware of what it is we are looking for, we can choose to satisfy that need in deliberate
and more effective ways.
So it is very important to get in touch with the unconscious to know what it is you
are setting up for yourselves in life, as symbolized in water planets, signs, and houses.
We all have our dependency needs. Even when we are adults, we still need nurturance
(mother figures, etc) to comfort us, assist us, reassure us, and give us emotional support.
It is still a basic need of life for everyone. So we need to be in touch with that, allow
ourselves to be helped by others, then we don’t have to get sick in order to get someone
to take care of us so that we can satisfy that part of our nature. Now, every time we are at
water we are at closure, finishing a chapter in the life, ready for a new fire out-thrust
because fire is always reaching out, starting a new chapter. Water finishes, absorbs and
assimilates this past experience, and then fire beings a new outreach. So after Letter Four
we are ready to reach out again to a new fire expression, and this is Letter Five in the
astrological alphabet.

[Shining Ray]

The 12th house

Letter Twelve (Pisces/Neptune/12th house) is the search for infinite love and
beauty, seeking total fusion or at-one-ment. Whereas with Letter Nine we are looking for
the rational, intellectual absolute that we can put into words, Letter Twelve is the search
for the emotional absolute. It is faith again but on a deeper, emotional, unconscious level.
Sagittarius wants to put it into words and preach it, while Pisces is the urge to become
what you are searching for, this elusive ideal or absolute that you can feel but can’t put
into words (total transcendence of self). This is the mystic potential, reunion with God,
the Absolute.

The three major expressions of Letter Twelve are: (1) the artist, (2) the savior or
healer-helper, and (3) the martyr/victim. Letter Twelve is one of the three artistic letters
(2/7/12). Here’s the artist who’s creating beauty in the world, making the world more
beautiful, more ideal, closer to one’s vision of perfection. This is the dreamer with a great
deal of creative imagination. The polar opposite is Virgo/Letter Six. If you have only
Virgo you have work done for the sake of doing a good job. If you have only Pisces you
have just a dreamer. Together you have the craftsman artist with the vision and the ability
to work towards it. So I like Neptune in Virgo or Neptune in the 6th house or Mercury in
Pisces or Mercury in the 12th house. It is a beautiful potential synthesis. I don’t think they
are hard to integrate. They belong together.
The savior is anybody who wants to help the world, heal the world, take care of
the world, inspire the world. The savior wants to be altruistic, to be helpful, to minister to
the needs of other people, or in some way try to make a more perfect, loving world closer
to their vision of how it ought to be.

The victim alternative is the one that the books talk about. This is the person who
has the same beautiful dream that the other two have, but he is not doing anything very
effective with his dream, just wishing the world were more loving and beautiful, and
feeling miserable. So the victim wants the perfect world but doesn’t do anything practical
to bring it about, OR he utilizes very ineffective means such as daydreaming, drugs,
sleep, or alcohol. They simply can’t face the misery of the world so they retreat into sleep
or alcohol. Some people spend their lives in front of the television. Or he may put on
rose-colored glasses, pretending the world is beautiful, lovely and easy. Or you can find
them bedridden with an illness that makes the world take care of them. The extreme is the
psychotic who is totally out of touch with consensual reality. Psychosis is where we
retreat into our fantasy world because we can’t cope with the real world.

Another danger is being too sensitive and vulnerable, being thin-skinned, easily
hurt, overwhelmed by feelings. Pisces/Neptune types are the original bleeding hearts for
humanity. They can really feel other people’s suffering, being empathic and sympathetic
to their needs. Another negative side of Letter Twelve is perfectionism, feeling that they
must be perfect, afraid to handle normal, nasty human emotions. They try too hard to be
spiritual and self-sacrificing, and soon become a dead saint! So if you choose the savior
trip, you just have to know how far to carry it. There is a fine line there of the savior
carrying it just a bit too far and then having it slide over into becoming a martyr and then
a victim. The savior has to know when to stop being savior. When they start feeling
harassed, imposed upon, resentful of helping, then maybe they need to pull back a bit. A
more subtle problem is if their help to others is actually weakening them. They are
carrying them instead of helping them to walk. You find this with astrologers practicing
good day-bad day astrology when clients call them up daily wanting to know if this is a
good day to go buy a hat! "Tell me how to live my life. What should I do?" That’s a very
real danger with astrologers to speak with the voice of the infinite, turning people into
helpless puppets. So it is important that if you go into a healing-helping profession (and
astrology is one of them) that you know how much help to give and know when you may
be weakening them, not letting them take the responsibility to make their own decisions
but instead relying on you exclusively as a crutch. If you help them understand
themselves, then they can choose their own path wisely, but if we choose for them, I
think we do them harm rather than good.


Regarding the old simplistic easy answers about the left half/right half/top
half/bottom half of a chart. You get a sense of how there is some truth in these
descriptions of chart weightings but they are not really accurately indicated in the way
they are usually described. When you have a major focus in the lower half, you have
personal needs (my needs only). When you get a major emphasis from the 4th to the 8th,
you get the interpersonal area, the person is focused into home/family/marriage (unless it
is all focused in the 6th house and then they may just live for their work). But the
traditional books state that the right side of the chart means the power is outside of your
control, while the left side is under your control. There is a germ of truth in that in the
sense that when you have your focus, your major energy, into the interpersonal area, you
are having to give up some of your will to others. It is a constant compromise of give &
take to maintain a relationship with other people. To stay in those close, committed
emotional attachments, you have to give up some of your will to do what you want to do
in order to relate to someone else.

When dealing with a chart, you have to look at the signs as well as the houses,
and I have seen extremely "out of control’ charts with the signs of vulnerability into the
supposedly "my control" houses of the 10th-11th-12th (transpersonal areas). These people
were totally out of control in terms of being helpless invalids, schizophrenics, and so
forth. So you can’t just generalize "right side/left side." One of the most introverted
charts I had was a child who had everything above the horizon except one planet but they
were all 8/10/12 houses, the water and earth houses that have the tendency to hold in and
hold back (fear and phobia). Especially when you are very young, the 10th house is more
apt to be the feeling that it is the power of the Universe and not your power yet (not until
you are working and feeling the power in your own hands). First it’s power the power of
the Universe "out there" that may sit on you, block you, deny you, threaten you. Often
there is a lot of anxiety with 10th house activity until the person becomes an adult and
gets a sense of their own strength thru their own accomplishment. So mostly I find a lot
of self-blocking in the early life when you get a heavy 10th house emphasis—unless there
is a strong fire focus as well. With powerful fire they may just charge away and fight the
world every step of the way. Otherwise there is apt to be anxiety and holding back.

[AquarianEssence]

This is very good. Being a Virgo I had to learn when helping is handicapping and enabeling and needs to become tough love. It's easy to do that with my children, my goal is to teach them how to be independant so I naturally give reponsibility in successive stages. But in wanting to save the world, to feel good about myself it is easy to do for othe people things that they should be doing for themselves. It quickly can become a martyr situation if left unchecked. I've learned to ask myself why they cant' do something. If the answer is they just don't want to, then its time to back off so I don't end up owning their karma.

[moving towards hermes]

Bear in mind that she wasn't strictly an Astrologer but more of a renaissance metaphysical ground breaker. It might seem simple and elementary by title but I'm seriously disappointed I didn't pick up a copy from a second hand store I frequent. I was thinking, "Oh, it's been here so long it'll wait for me." Wrong! Nothing else in that section was touched but that and I had seen it less than 2 weeks before I returned to get it. The book is How to be Your Own Astrologer and the great value is the simplicity conveying the Myths behind planetary names that you easily internalize the info. The only example I remember at all was that of Mercury as the Light Bearer describing how the planet carries the message of the nearest planet forward.

Cool, so she's persuasive. What do you think of her content? I have been having a bit of a struggle trying to sort mythology from culture from psychology from astrology from scientists on consequential frolics of their own.
Take Uranus for example. Sky ur-god and maybe erotic strangler of Gaia, has to be separated from her by force and castration. And out of that act arises Venus, a slightly cooler and perhaps more sustainable way of linking heaven and earth. Now mightn't Venus be another vibration of Uranus? And more to the point how come we don't have a planet named Prometheus, which seems to correspond so much more with the Aquarian vision?
This bit from the wikipedia about Pluto also kind of illustrates whatever it is that I'm struggling to articulate:

Pluto is an alternative name for the Greek god anika (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anika&action=edit), but was more often used in Romans mythology in their presentation of the god of the underworld. He abducted Proserpina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proserpina) (Gr. Persephone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone)), and her mother Ceres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_%28mythology%29) (Gr. Demeter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter)) who then caused winter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter) in her grief. Although he is often envisioned today as evil (for his similarities to the Christian Satan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan)) the Romans did not view him as such.
Pluto was originally not the god of the underworld. Pluto is cognate with the Greek word "Psloutas" (wealth, cf. plutocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy)), and, under the original name Plutus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutus), was considersed by the Romans as the giver of gold, silver, and other subterranean substances. Because these "gifts" were mined, Pluto became recognized as the god of the physical underworld, which in turn helped him become recognized as the god of the spiritual underworld and thus death. This brought about his mythological relationship to the Greek god Hades. Because the mythology of thse gods is more known than the actual religious roles of the gods, Pluto is identified as the counterparts to the Greek Hades (which is only wholly true in mythology).
The dwarf planet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_planet) Pluto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto) is named after him.
Pluto (Greek: Πλούτων), although related, should not be confused with the Greek god Plutus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutus) (Πλοῦτος), the god of wealth.
"Plutonic Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonic_Theory)", the idea that the earth was formed due to intense heat in the earth, stems from Pluto, the opposing theory of which is the Neptunian Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptunism) which states that the formation of the earth was caused by the agency of water.

[Shining Ray]

Hi Aquarianessance,

I have been a savior in relationships by enabling behaviors, thinking I was rescuing them. I would give way too much to partners leaving my self in debt to help them out of theirs it's crazy when you think about it. And it's not really helping them in their soul growth either. As it says it's knowing when to help and when not to help.

[AquarianEssence]

Yes. It was never an issue with me until my 40's going through my divorce. I trusted someone to pay back a loan for an inexpensive car thinking I was helping her get a job but she didn't and got help from social services also. Then, I got burned on a phone bill by my future inlaws. I should have asked myself why they couldn't get a phone in their own name, dumb me. Since I've always paid my bills, it never dawned on me.