Apparent Inconsistencies in Astrology

[Rebel Uranian]

aka, "My Personal Skepticism Thread." I expect to be wrong each and every time, but you have to prove how I'm wrong before I "believe" it.



Article 1:

Religion

Origin:
1150–1200; Middle English religioun (< Old French religion ) < Latin religiōn- (stem of religiō ) conscientiousness, piety, equivalent to relig ( āre ) to tie, fasten ( re- re- (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/re-) + ligāre to bind, tie; compare ligament (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ligament)) + -iōn- -ion (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/-ion); compare rely (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rely)

Comments:

Bind, tie, fasten? Well, hello restraining principle Jupiter.



Article 2:

Agriculture is directly related to human spatial thinking, i.e. geometry or "earth measurement" ("geo" = earth, "metry" = measurement, think "meter" for "metry") as the practice of diving land for farming.

Saturn rules both time and agriculture.

Comments:

Does this mean Saturn just rules all those scary abstract concepts (including space) period? I think that's too much for one planet to rule.



I'll have more later.

[Anachiel]

Saturn doesn't rule time, although he is depicted as Father Time or the Reaper in many woodcuts and drawings. Moreso, he signifies the effects of time; like old-age, wisdom, antiques, ruins, desolate or abandoned places, cemetaries, and stability.

Most of the ancient god/desses were associated with agriculture or some aspect of it to one degree or another. It was a very important activity and consumed most people's days. However, the planets are not the god/desses. They only share names. The similarity after that goes rapidly downhill and they are not meant to be synchretized.

The worship of god/desses was a religion, more or less. Astrology is not a religion. So, equating Kronos and the planet Saturn leads to inaccuracies on both sides. It's probably THE main reason why Saturn (the planet) gets such a bad reputation is from people synchretizing it with the ancient god Kronos and all his misadventures.

[Rebel Uranian]

Article 1 was simply giving the etymology of religion which is basically "to bind" (restrain) and religion is ruled by Jupiter, the expansive principle. It wasn't talking about religion like I think you implied.

The bad rap about Saturn comes from a lot more than simply the myths about Saturn. Here's an article about Saturn and lead (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/metal6.html) for you, and there's more on the site if you need to read more about Saturn, or Jupiter, or any other planet. I associate Saturn with issues of restraint and fear vs. control and nothing more except derivative concepts, such as austerity, darkness, death, etc.

[sandstone]

anachiel, your comment and the use of the word kronos for saturn reminded me of a comment i read recently that is a type of philosophical conversation in itself..

Re: Welcome & Postion Statement from Moderator (http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=85&sid=0fb355ae2116ca9e7bb3b0b5768601a8#p451)

http://actastrology.com/styles/prosilver/imageset/icon_post_target.gif (http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?p=451#p451)by Robert_Schmidt (http://actastrology.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=58) on Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:39 pm
I am just now getting to your question, Mr. Noblehorse, about any connection between Hellenistic astrology and teachings of Plato, as well as any with Hermetic philosophy.

Well, let me first say that I believe you pressed the right button. One of the hallmarks of Platonic metaphysics is the distinction between image and original: shadows and reflections as images of visible things, these very visible things as images of entities accessible only to the discursive intellect (such as the mathematicals). Take the Hellenistic concept of an anticion. The Greek word means "a shadow cast the opposite direction." Ask youself why such a term would have been chosen to describe this astrological concept. Another suggestive instance is the curious way that Hellenistic astrologers (at least when they are being careful), refer to a visible planet as "the star of Kronos". Is the planet being regarded as a visible manifestation or image of deity? Where might its original be found in a natal chart?

http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=85&sid=0fb355ae2116ca9e7bb3b0b5768601a8

here is a good example of using the old greek names for planets in an interesting thread on triplicities that some here might like to read... it highlights the title to this thread very well - inconsistencies in astrology, lol...

http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=113&sid=0fb355ae2116ca9e7bb3b0b5768601a8

[Anachiel]

sandstone, thanks for sharing those articles.

I have a really hard time reading a lot of things amongst the Hellenist astrologers like, "By the way, unlike some traditional astrologers, I do not wish to ignore those pesky outers. I am interested in how they might be integrated into the Hellenistic system without destroying its integrity, which means not giving them sign or exaltation rulerships, and other things." - Robert Schmidt (italics mine to emphasize the punch line- and hubris)

and then he adds, "I do not happen to like the direction in which Dane Rudhyar took modern astrology...He did not attempt to understand how this astrological apparatus was originally conceptualized; instead, he totally reconceptualized it to serve a completely new purpose, so much so that modern astrology bears little resemblance to the earlier tradition." - which is what he about to do with Hellenist astrology. GAWD!

Anyway..oh, where did this soapbox come from? ::toss::

Where were we..oh yes, Kronos. Right, so the Greeks called them after deity as well. I have to admit, it is interesting why all cultures followed suit but, I guess they have to be called something vaguely reminiscent of an aspect of the the Divine for, after all, they are heavenly objects. We'll probably never know the true reason because it was all said and done back when God lost His shoe.

MY problem with this is that he is taking the etymology of Greek words and applying them to our modern concepts of them in English....wow, let me get my parachute now for this leap.

[sandstone]

lol! i like the part about god losing his shoe!

i hear ya.. i think waybread has made the argument fairly well that any type of trad or hellenistic astrology that is done today is a neo type that is influenced by the world of today.. heraclitus put it best when he said something to the effect - you can't step in the same river twice, as the river will have moved on... we really have no way of knowing how those from the past viewed astrology, but trying to understand how they applied astrology is something of a new past-time.. until the early 90's much literature sat neglected without any effort made to translate it for those interested in knowing more about the history behind it..

whether one wants to use the info or not, i do find the info fascinating to consider... really the same thing happened in 1986 i believe with the re-introduction to william lillys work which has had a surprisingly strong group of followers... prior to this time, he was a footnote in the astrology history books and no one knew what he had practiced exactly... cheers james

[Anachiel]

Yes, very good points. And I do acknowledge their great contributions in making the material available. In that I have the greatest respect.
(I just have to grab the book from them and run-away so I can't hear them talk about it ha ha j/k)

[sandstone]

lol! - love what you say in the small print!

[Rebel Uranian]

Well, if it's not consistent, then it's not right.

[Rebel Uranian]

To get things consistent for me, I just make everything stand for as little as possible, aka one thing, and then look at how things influence each other.

[JUPITERASC]

lol! i like the part about god losing his shoe!

i hear ya.. i think waybread has made the argument fairly well that any type of trad or hellenistic astrology that is done today is a neo type that is influenced by the world of today..
not necessarily - 'any' is a sweeping generalization :smile:
heraclitus put it best when he said something to the effect - you can't step in the same river twice, as the river will have moved on... we really have no way of knowing how those from the past viewed astrology, but trying to understand how they applied astrology is something of a new past-time.. until the early 90's much literature sat neglected without any effort made to translate it for those interested in knowing more about the history behind it..
The philosophy of Heraclitus is summed up in his cryptic utterance:


ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ.
Potamoisi toisin autoisin embainousin, hetera kai hetera hudata epirrei
"Ever-newer waters flow on those who step into the same rivers ."


The quote from Heraclitus appears in Plato's Cratylus twice; in 401,d as:


τὰ ὄντα ἰέναι τε πάντα καὶ μένειν οὐδέν”
Ta onta ienai te panta kai menein ouden
"All entities move and nothing remains still"


and in 402,a


πάντα χωρεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει” καὶ "δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης"
Panta chōrei kai ouden menei... kai... dis es ton auton potamon ouk an embaies
"Everything changes and nothing remains still... and... you cannot step twice into the same stream"


Instead of "flow" Plato uses chōrei, to change chōros.


The assertions of flow are coupled in many fragments with the enigmatic river image:


"Ποταμοῖς τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἐμβαίνομέν τε καὶ οὐκ ἐμβαίνομεν, εἶμέν τε καὶ οὐκ εἶμεν."
"We both step and do not step in the same rivers. We are and are not."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus

whether one wants to use the info or not, i do find the info fascinating to consider... really the same thing happened in 1986 i believe with the re-introduction to william lillys work which has had a surprisingly strong group of followers... prior to this time, he was a footnote in the astrology history books and no one knew what he had practiced exactly... cheers james

[Ion]

aka, "My Personal Skepticism Thread." I expect to be wrong each and every time, but you have to prove how I'm wrong before I "believe" it.



Article 1:

Religion

Origin:
1150–1200; Middle English religioun (< Old French religion ) < Latin religiōn- (stem of religiō ) conscientiousness, piety, equivalent to relig ( āre ) to tie, fasten ( re- re- (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/re-) + ligāre to bind, tie; compare ligament (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ligament)) + -iōn- -ion (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/-ion); compare rely (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rely)

Comments:

Bind, tie, fasten? Well, hello restraining principle Jupiter.



Article 2:

Agriculture is directly related to human spatial thinking, i.e. geometry or "earth measurement" ("geo" = earth, "metry" = measurement, think "meter" for "metry") as the practice of diving land for farming.

Saturn rules both time and agriculture.

Comments:

Does this mean Saturn just rules all those scary abstract concepts (including space) period? I think that's too much for one planet to rule.



I'll have more later.

The word 'religion' means to 'bind back' or to reconnect our consciousness (restore) to its 'original condition' . . . to reverse the conundrum in which the 'ego' has replaced God (the divine masculine and/or feminine) as 'the supreme being'.

Saturn rules 'form' . . . . physicality , structure .. . the work of Saturn is complete when the mind and heart are united .

best regards ,
ion

[sandstone]

ru quote " Well, if it's not consistent, then it's not right."

it is all relative...

i know how the world of black and white appeals to so many of the funnymental types...

[Ion]

ru quote " Well, if it's not consistent, then it's not right."

it is all relative...

i know how the world of black and white appeals to so many of the funnymental types...

I agree . . . the unifying link is 'the self' . . . .
we must observe the astrological energies from the perspective of 'the self' . . . and see how they affect us as individuals . . . . (observation of energetic shifts during transits in our birth chart) .
We must 'translate' the key-words provided by astrology into personal experience . . . . otherwise we are @ The Tower of Babble .
(opinion) Each of us is in a particular and unique context . . . without including 'self observation' (via transits and progressions) in our astrological practice then the astrological descriptors remain ambiguous .
'Abstract astrology' is far less meaningful than 'self observation' within the astrological model .

Ion

[Pallas-trine-Mars]

I'd say Saturn generally seems to be a planet involved in DELAYS and inefficiency, not time or necessarily time itself.

That concept seems to generally come from people getting Cronus, the equivalent of Saturn, confused with CHRONOS, the god of time.

[Rebel Uranian]

"During antiquity, Cronus was occasionally interpreted as Chronos, the personification of time,[8] and the Renaissance, the identification of Cronus and Chronos gave rise to "Father Time" wielding the harvesting scythe.
A theory debated in the 19th century, and sometimes still offered somewhat apologetically,[9] holds that Kronos is related to "horned", assuming a Semitic derivation from qrn.[10] Andrew Lang's objection, that Cronus was never represented horned in Hellenic art,[11] was addressed by Robert Brown,[12] arguing that in Semitic usage, as in the Hebrew Bible qeren was a signifier of "power". When Greek writers encountered the Levantine deity El, they rendered his name as Kronos.[13]
Robert Graves proposed that cronos meant "crow", related to the Ancient Greek word corōnē "crow", noting that Cronus was depicted with a crow, as were the deities Apollo, Asclepius, Saturn and Bran.[14]"


(Wikipedia)

[SniperBomber328]

I always thought in Greek Mythology that Kronos (Cronus) and Chronos were two seperate entities. Kronos being the God of Agriculture and the Fall Harvest (or something) and Chronos being the personification of Time, like 'Father Time'. Thought people only mixed them, cause of their similar names.

[Moog]

I've read about this Chronos/Saturn mix before. To me, time and Saturn make sense, as I perceive the time allotted to me as a form of limitation