hindsight is 20/20 - view on Gacy's chart

[sandstone]

i am putting this outside the box of trad only comments.. john wayne gacy's chart has been used by some in the astro community to try to present modern astrology in a bad light.. that is an interesting approach which appears to show a built in bias towards a particular style of astrology not to mention that the comparison offered on this site that i have read more then a few times is seriously flawed...

hindsight is 20/20... it is interesting how one can go back and look at a chart and see all the reasons why something is such and such a way or another astrologically.. astrology is supposed to be about predicting the future as much as everything else it has been used for.. predicting the future is much more tricky then looking back at the past.. studying the past is very instructive to seeing what might work astrologically and i recommend it..

here is the wikipedia page on gacy. reading it while looking at his chart is informative.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy
here is his chart with more bio related info
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gacy,_John_Wayne

when you read his early upbringing it is quite disturbing and fits with how his life later turned out...

the first part of his chart that stands out to me is the new moon opposite neptune.. the other pattern that quickly jumps off the chart is the mercury squaring onto the ascendant axis and being involved with the cluster of planets in the descendant area of his chart.. upon a closer look one notes a few midpoints like mars/saturn = mercury, mars/uranus = descendant, moon/pluto=descendant and challenging midpoint pictures like this.. an interesting feature of his chart is the absence of any planet in a cardinal sign.. his chart is largely mutable with some fixed to it suggesting he was a product of his circumstances more then a person able to force his life in a particular direction..

a technique anyone can try out which can be used to help in rectification as well is the use of directing any planet on a 1 degree= 1 year basis.. this is essentially solar arc direction applied to a chart to get more understanding of the directions in effect for a person in a particular year of there life.. you can do it forward - the most common way and called direct, or reverse - less common and called converse.. if you do this on gacys chart with the data on his personal bio you can see some of the challenging directions matching up with some of his early home life experiences as well..

gacys killing spree starts on his saturn return with saturn transiting the descendant area of his chart, while neptune is transiting his ascendant.. he also married for a 2nd time in 1972.. 2 marriages for gemini on the descendant pans out with gacy.. his murdering continues until 1978 where t saturn finds itself squaring onto his asc/desc axis and close to his midheaven by the end of the year..

i suppose i am demonstrating how one can look back on a persons life and consider the different techniques you are using astrologically to understand both the person and the astrology better.. it is an exhaustive task thinking of sharing everything i can look at by writing it down, but it is a small part of what goes into doing astro research using different techniques such as transits or solar arc directions to a well known persons chart such as gacy.. i think the part about syncing up the different techniques one uses in astrology to real people who have lived notoriously or otherwise is helpful for better understanding astrology..

the sect read on gacys chart wouldn't consider mars on an angle in a nocturnal chart such a bad thing.. perhaps the fact it squares onto it's own ruler would change the dynamic some, but just on the basis of sect mars isn't badly placed... as roy pointed out on the other thread is the conflict with the position of mercury and jupiter both being in detriment in each others signs.. how this would get factored into the astrological cause of his horrific actions is not completely clear to me... i suppose the beauty of trad astro is its connection to a more fatalistic viewpoint, something that i think modern astro has worked hard to displace... where ever one finds themselves with regard to a particular attachment to either trad or mod astrology, to me is seems beside the point to understanding astrology better.. hey, i get to be philosophical about this on a neutral forum where i am not having to address something in a specific boxed in manner...

[Caprising]

Thats a pretty good start Sandstone, I would like to add that around about march of 72 his progressed saturn came to an exact conjunction with his natal Uranus in Taurus (considered to be in fall by many), and with both natal Saturn and Uranus connecting to natal Neptune (in detriment in Virgo) with a trine (not the sort of trine I would want being between 2 planets in poor shape) I see a potential " violent deceptive thought pattern . With natal venus in Aquarius very close to the 3rd house cusp, therefore influencing natal thought patterns, the sign ruler Uranus is going to have some influence concerning his love nature! The natal sesquiquadrate between Venus and Neptune ties in these 4 planets with a "suprise" connection! Am I explaining this clearly Sandstone or do have a different take on the planets in question?

[sandstone]

hi caprising,

i like what you've commented on with gacys chart... the 135 and 45 from venus to neptune and moon are a close trio of planets connected with one another.. mars is also connected via the 22.30 aspect but this is less easy to see unless you work with a 45 degree dial. there are a few midpoints that connect closely with these planets as well.. saturn/pluto midpoint, and sun/moon midpoint..

here is some of the data
saturn/pluto midpoint - 28 gemini 53
sun/moon midpoint - 27 pisces 24

venus at 13 aquarius 36 is 135 to the sa/pl midpoint and slightly less then 44 from the sun/moon midpoint...neptune is very close to exactly square the sa/pl midpoint.. gacy has neptune and venus at his sun/moon midpoint via these hard aspects which are an important consideration to any chart..

what is less obvious mars at 5 gemini 50, or about 23 degrees 3 minutes away from the saturn/pluto midpoint which in turn connect to the venus, neptune and moon by 16th harmonic type aspects..

to me the saturn/pluto midpoint is one of possible hardship or cruelty. the fact that all of these points in gacys chart activate this midpoint suggest gacys life was not an easy one.. if you read the wiki bio on his early life this is very clear to see..

if you want to look at specific events in his life we can do that too thru some different predictive tools that i like working with...

i suppose my post makes clear i find midpoint data very useful to consider..

[TransformingSelf]

Hello Sandstone,

You have unraveled the chart of John Wayne Gacy in your own interpretation because that is exactly what the biography and chart are showing, that he was an "out-of-box" and unconventional character.
I have not looked at his natal chart with the exact numerical midpoints as you have, but am estimating by eye. I see the most powerful indicator of the reasons for his actions from the smallest midpoint between his sun and moon in Pisces as emotions influencing his personality in every aspect of his life and those emotions in Pisces being unrestrained where the distinction between reality and imagination is blurred. The fact that both Sun and Moon are in the fourth house matches with his obsession with his father as his ruthless actions are an imitation of his father's abuse of himself. If one were to take the midpoint between the ascendant and descendant axes in the lower hemisphere of his chart, that person would find it to be exactly where Mercury lies and that was his main problem. He had difficulties in communicating the aggression he experienced as a child through the socially acceptable means of words, so he grew up relying on physical attacks to release his anger and pain. To answer your question of how Mercury factors into the astrological cause of his actions, its being in Pisces is telling of how his emotions were so rampant and inconsistent that he was unable to clearly express them. Compounded to this Mercury in detriment is Jupiter in detriment in Gemini, which I see as indicative of the seizures he had because of the continual activity in his brain to escape from his feelings of shame inflicted by the past and his own self-abuse to live up to the expectations of others that he created in his own mind, to the point where he could not control himself. The midpoint between Jupiter and Mars is also powerful because it translates into an abundance of physical aggression (violent seizures and violence towards others), inflicted on self and others in the seventh house.
It's like his life was constantly characterized by struggle, the struggles in communication with his Mercury in detriment and conflicting feelings about his father and past, the struggles between being cautious and impulsive in relationships as represented by Saturn and Uranus so close together in his seventh house of relationships, and the struggles between finding respect for his own self as separate from the ashamed self attached to the abusive father of his past as represented by Pluto guiding him towards self-healing in the ninth house of the future and the Sun and Moon pushing him back to self-pain in the fourth house of the past.
Your approach to understanding the astrology of Gacy's life is an approach that leads you to understanding the core of astrology and its penetration into the reasons for motivation and behavior.

[dr. farr]

Excellent observations/delineations by all of these posters! Shows that Modernist delineation can work and work quite well, just as Traditionalist delineation can work and quite well, IF done by those (like these posters) who really know what they are doing!!

[Caprising]

Sandstone, I do like to consider midpoints, but the rules on midpoint strength are not clear to me at this point in time. My solarfire program came up with about 200 midpoints, add in progressions and transits to the midpoints and progressed midpoints and we have too much information! I would suggest that the more powerful midpoints should be used , and by "powerful" I'm looking at the mars/saturn m/p at 29.59 Taurus, and the pluto sun m/p at 29.50 Taurus, both midpoints would be considered a conjunction by me, would you consider it so? This midpoint is also within a degree of the descendant/ascendant axis, so another conjunction in my book. The moon pluto midpoint is also at 1 degree Gemini, another conjunction with the descendant as I think you pointed out earlier. With the venus/mc m/p being at 1 degree sagg we have another hit, add in the saturn /jupiter m/p conjuncting mars and the uranus/mars midpoint at 1*28 Gem....that certainly does accentuate the asc/desc. axis! I suppose we have to ask how the midpoint works too, is it going to work according to the aspects that the natal planets make to each other, or does it blend the best or worst qualities of each planet! Maybe it's an escape route for planets that are too uncivilised to use on their own....what do you think?

[sandstone]

thanks everyone for the input and kind words!

t-self -- focusing on the mercury is a good way to go into this chart due the fact the chart is very much a western hemisphere emphasis - a chart focused on relationship - and mercury has great bearing on gemini descendant, mars, jupiter.. mercury is squaring onto the asc/desc axis as you and i both point out.. it is also 1 of 3 planets rising on the eastern side of the chart.. the cutting planet- venus (135 to neptune) - are the other 2 and suggest someone reaching out for friendship/love but experiencing disappointment and disillusionment instead.. that these 2 planets are so closely associated with his sun/moon combo and fall at the saturn/pluto midpoint says a lot about his early home life and what i feel are the building blocks for his actions later in life. t-self, the other part that you focused on - sun/moon with neptune opp is definitely an important consideration to t his chart.. oppositions imply relationship and this close opposition between moon/neptune really describes the shadowy nature of his life, early family circumstances and inability to connect with people on a meaningful and rewarding level in an intimate context..

caprising - great question regarding how does one decide which midpoints are more relevant to a chart.. this is something that i often find myself questioning too.. my focus is more based on a particular set of aspects that i associate with events coming out on a tangible level in peoples lives.. i focus on the even series aspects - 2, 4, 8, 16 , or opposition, square, semisquare/sesquisquare and the 22.30 aspect which is 1/2 of 45 or what i called 16th harmonic..

going off this i conclude that the venus/neptune 135 ties directly into 2 of the 3 most critical points to a chart that one has to consider - sun, moon and ascendant axis.. from this position i feel that the saturn/pluto midpoint is important.. however it is interesting if you have the software to look at these sort of things - michael munkasey developed a system for evaluating the importance of midpoints gotten thru a computer analysis of them that is built into this solar fire astro program i have -7.3.1 version - and it also helps to isolate the top 35 of these on any chart... it will change depending on how many planets or points you include as selected chart points in your preferences.. it is called 'midpoint weighing analysis' or MWA in the program.. it is something you can look at probably on the other main astro software programs available for anyone seriously wanting to know more about astrology...

according to the MWA the midpoints considered most important to gacys chart, keeping in mind i have included chiron along with the planets out to pluto and vertex which is like an alternative type of 7th house cusp suggestive of connections to others - i get these 10 at the top of the list.
moon/mercury,
nodes/vertex
mercury/uranus
moon/neptune
venus/jupiter
pluto/node
neptune/pluto
moon/uranus
saturn/pluto
chiron/midheaven

if you pull out chiron and vertex it is much the same except you are down to the top 8.. another interesting observation is this - the MWA will also suggest which planet from the chart is considered the most active or in focus planet and it happens to be mercury no matter whether you include chiron and vertex or not.. another very interesting surprise is how if one includes the new planet - ceres - into the mix on gacys chart - ceres was promoted to planet status by the astronomers while pluto was demoted -
ceres shoots to the very top above mercury as an important consideration to his chart... ceres happens to be at 0 pisces 18 - in an exact conjunction to natal mercury.. what i find interesting here is how the transit of neptune and chiron are going over this same area while we are looking more closely at gacys chart... whether we come away from this study with a more compassionate understanding of gacy while learning more about the astrology - that would be a positive result...

caprising - hopefully this gives you a bit of an idea on how to evaluate midpoints a little bit! i am mostly looking for midpoints that are emphasized in the chart already, as opposed to midpoints that don't include planets or important chart points at there midpoint... i use hard aspects - the even series numbered aspects to help me figure this out.. i consider certain midpoints like sun/moon or ascendant/midheaven to have greater relevance if there is a planet at either of these midpoints as i see these planets/points as being more central to any chart... cheers james

[Caprising]

Hi, just a quick post as I'm a bit short of time for the next couple of days.
I was going to get to the mercury placement (and sun and moon) as pointed out by both posters ,but wanted to establish a few other placements/delination methods first. My solarfire v5 program does have a midpoint weighting system, however I don't know if I would trust it completely, as it is computer generated after all, so can't take into account certain criteria (much like the interps are limited).
I use the same planetary aspects as you, but with the quincunx thrown in!
I also consider the semi-sextile to be a slightly difficult aspect despite the positive slant given by many astrologers!
I use Chiron and pluto too, and have dabbled with the 4 well known asteroids Vesta,Pallas,ceres and juno, oh, and the P.O.F. and vertex, so we seem to be on the same page in this regard.
I like your way of determining midpoint strength, and follow a similar theme , with angular (natal and progressed) midpoints being particularly highlighted, but I havn't put much time or effort into them as yet! Gacy's Merc does look a bit problematic as both of you have mentioned, no positive aspects, and only squares in the natal, if it wasn't for the progression to Aries then I doubt if he would have been successful as he was in business and in his dealings with groups like the Jaycees!
Your mention of his saturn return is very interesting Sandstone, as this coincided with the start of his killing spree, and as you mentioned in an earlier post he had at the same time trans neptune/jupiter conj. asc., progressed mars conj. prog descendant, trans pluto conjunct natal and prog Neptune, thats a lot of neptune energy, I wonder if this is when he went to jail for a spell, I will look it up when I get a chance, anyway I have to run now, cheers!

[sandstone]

hi caprising - thanks for your comments here!

i wanted to mention that anyone who wants to posts comments on gacys chart in traditional, modern, or whatever style they are using - feel free to do so.. it would be interesting to read different perspectives using his chart as a point of departure..

caprising, here is another way of seeing mercury as having greater bearing on the chart.. mercury is in the 10th house of the gemini planets and the 10th house is in a commanding position to the planets in the 1st.. this is a way of playing around with the way one can think of houses, which really addresses an issue that is discussed in various astrological areas with ideas like sinister, verses dexter or oriental verses occidental phase relationships and astro lingo like this..

regarding the use of the semisextile or the quincunx/inconjunct - i think these are useful aspects to consider as well.. these are like 6/8 or 2/12 type aspects in that they bring together planets usually in these types of relationships with one another by sign.. i believe ptolemy considered these aspects as well, although they aren't mentioned in most lists of ptolemaic aspects .. in ptolemys time aspects seem to be based off asign that is semisextile of inconjunct to another sign regardless of where the planet falls by degree in the sign.. a few examples in gacys chart would be saturn to mars or jupiter - taurus/gemini being semisextile by sign one another and saturn falling in mars and jupiters 12th house.. or vice versa - mars and jupiter falling in saturns 2nd house.. one prominent inconjunct to gacys chart would be virgo to aquarius where we see his neptune and venus, although they are tied by the modern aspect 135, they would be considered inconjunct in ptolemys time as i understand it.. saturn would be inconjunct his ascendant as well..

i am not sure the rules or approach to defining sect when the luminary which defines the nocturnal sect - moon, is so close to the sun... i am looking into this at the moment.. if moon is sect ruler and not replaced by venus or mars, the moon gets no help from mars of venus as i understand it in this chart.. mars while on an angle which would strengthen it, in in the moons 4th house by square.. venus is in the moons 12th house via semisextile.. this is according to the idea an aspect is based on a sign relationship... if i am correct on this it implies the moon gets no assistance from the other 2 nocturnal planets in his nocturnal chart.. if on the other hand due to the suns rays overshadowing the moon the sect ruler is replaced by mars or venus, this would be more favourable as they are in a 9/5 or trine relationship to one another by sign..

sect is an interesting part of trad astrology that i continue to work towards fully understanding..

one other short comment - gacys part of fortune is being opposed by saturn which perhaps i can comment on later..

[TransformingSelf]

You are all brilliant in your analyses, and I just love the unconditional astrological welcoming in this thread! I find that we share understanding of Gacy's astrology in different ways. Sandstone, you and Caprising bring up exactly what was on my mind about which midpoints to consider. That is part of the trouble that I had when I replied yesterday because I wanted to include every midpoint that was there, but had to resign to the main ones that struck my eye and this selective decision-making is so similar to you and Caprising selecting the most prominent ones in your computer analyses.
As I look again at Gacy's chart, something else draws my attention and relates to your discussion on midpoints. I see Gacy as a midpoint himself, a man wobbling between extremes and dichotomies. He has these dichotomies in a substantial portion of his chart- the wavering between the Sun and Moon or his outward persona and inward emotion, between Venus and Mercury or feeling love and distancing himself with rationality, between Saturn and Uranus or stability and volatility where when he thought he had what he wanted, especially in the sense of relationships, he lost it, and Saturn and Uranus as prestige and degradation as in society's views of his jobs as successful contractor and aimless clown, between Mars and Jupiter or obsession and indifference. You have reached the heart of Gacy with your analysis because he did have disappointment and disillusionment which can also be seen from Neptune, the apex of several equilateral triangles, connecting to the clusters, that you noted, of his other planets. It's this Neptune that conditions the expressions of the other planets through confusion, wavering, and escapism. The positions of the natal planets and aspects signify that he tried to escape from his pain by turning to relationships, but when the relationships broke apart, the reality forced him to turn back to himself. You are exactly right in pointing to the "shadowy" nature of his life as represented by his profession, a clown, a person with a mask who hides his emotions beneath a rigid exterior. Now, the idea of a clown relates to your question about the Sun and Moon in close proximity, and they reveal a lapse of boundaries where perceived self becomes actual self as readily as actual self becomes perceived self. Gacy recognized this lapse when he confronted boundaries in the bars of his prison cell before his death. You know exactly what is going on as in your words, "Hindsight is 20/20"- experience unfolds self-realization.

[dr. farr]

Indeed Neptune is a highly influential element of the Gacy chart, and the chart is dominated by the mutable modality, so the wavering mentioned by TransformingSelf seems a constitutional factor in Gacy's situation. Neptune and Moon are atmakaraka planets (a Jaimini concept similar to our concept of chart rulers), but Moon is combust, so the defacto atmakaraka here is Neptune-largely sets the "quality" of the chart. So, hidden, occult and "other-worldly" and "strange" motivations are indicated by this Neptune strength in this chart; and Neptune itself is in a mutable sign.
Jupiter is conjunct Lilith (which I accept as a valid astrological factor and which I regard as a "mini-SN") This is a strong applying conjunction, made even more influential by being angular (and here again, in a mutable sign); Lilith conjunct Jupiter can give a ravenous, insatiable sexual appetite-and note that this is in Gacy's 7th house of relationships with others-and certainly we can see this manifesting in Gacy's life (eg, numerous rapes, first jail term for sodomy, etc)
His Sun is blocked by being in a pitted degree; thus the higher potential Light-enlightening reason, higher consciousness-which the Sun can represent, was denied Gacy due to his Sun being largely neutralized by positing this pitted degree of Pisces.

(more later)

[sandstone]

transforming self - you are too kind!

dr farr - thanks for your comments here which i find interesting to consider..

i suppose if we are going to look at lilith we may as well include eris as well.. eris is at 4 aries 48, while mars/pluto midpoint is at 4 cancer 45.. actually chiron/mercury midpoint is on the same axis as mars/pluto and chiron happens to be in a 5 degree orb conjunction to pluto as well.. chiron is said to reveal a wound that one works to heal and in the sign of leo it connects to ones childhood..

whether one wants to consider mars or pluto as the ruler of scorpio, scorp is the 12th house cusp in gacys chart.. part of fortune lands here as well and is very poorly placed with mars as ruler.. perhaps the reason he is so notorious has to do with mars in a cardinal house occidental and accidentally debilitated by house as well..

the way i understand the part of fortune to work is that one looks at it's relationship to the ascendant lord - inconjunct in gacys case(jupiter), and the lights- more favourable, but most important the lord of the pof itself - mars to which it is also inconjunct.. then one can set up houses with pof as the first... saturn then is in the 7th to pof which is considered quite bad.. one could look at the part of spirit as well which is said to be quite significant in hellenistic astrology.. it lands at 4 sag 12 close to exact opposite natal mars in gacys chart..

i was thinking of the mars/pluto midpoint to gacys chart last night when looking at a question on the read my chart thread about possible sexual abuse.. i have seen aspects between these 2 planets representing more challenges on the sexual plane.. noticing eris exact square to this midpoint is interesting for a few reasons.. eris has a pretty bad rap from everything on the net i have read about it.. eris was the planetoid that bumped pluto off it's planetary status perch as well...

the distance from mars to pluto in gacys chart is 57 degrees 48 minutes.. i haven't done it yet, but this would be like making up an arabic part for mars/pluto... one takes the distance and applies it to different points, usually the ascendant to see where it arrives and how it creates some triangles around the chart.. the distance from moon to uranus is 58 degree 16 minutes which is very similar.. of course both mars and uranus in these 2 pictures happen to be where the descendant axis midpoint to as well.. that is mars/uranus = descendant.. he didn't live to his 57 or 58th year to see the direction of his chart 1 degree=1 year to this point, but i wonder (since 58 years is essentially 2 cycles of saturn) if one the first cycle the 1/2 point of these 2 pictures was the activation point?

lots of speculation to astrology.. as i said in the title, one can look back and apply the data to specific dates in a persons life to see if it has any relevance or not..

additional note - sun to saturn distance is 58 degree 6 minutes very similar to mars/pluto distance..

[sandstone]

i just wanted to point out that these parts are based off doing something quite similar to what i was looking at in my previous post.. i would like to comment on this a wee bit more..

the reason the part of fortune and the part of spirit are considered primary parts in hellenistic and the arabic approach to astrology has to do with taking the distance in zodiac degrees/minutes from the 2 lights - sun/moon and applying this distance to the ascendant.. essentially the 3 most central considerations to a chart are now tied together in the form of a part or point on the ecliptic that is and isn't an abstraction from what is in the chart already.. the only difference is in whether this distance is extended back or forward off the ascendant and it is based on whether the chart is a day or night chart..

using gacys chart as the ongoing example - part of fortune at 28 scorpio 33 one can quickly see that the amount of seperation from pof to ascendant is exactly the same as it is between the sun and moon in gacys chart - 2 degrees 50 minutes.. the same applies to the part of spirit which projects forward 2/50 to give 4 sag 12 as part of spirit..

now perhaps there is some catchy old phrase to describe the relationship between mars/pluto, although the astrologers of old were not looking at mars/pluto distance of separation, but i am sure they would have been looking at some part that involved the sun and saturn and turning it into an arabic or greek part! i am going to guess without looking it is probably called the part of the father as these 2 planets are typically associated with the father.. now whether one wants to suppose that the fact the part of father, or whatever this part is called, happens to coincide with the same modern part gotten with mars/pluto and extrapolate that gacys father was a brutal sob, it would be easy to do based off the fact both sun/saturn and mars/pluto distance phase is about exactly the same.. i do associate mars/pluto with intense force and potential brutality..

something to ponder for the trad and contemporary crowd..

[sandstone]

solar arc sun at 25 pisces 59 directed to the mars/pluto midpoint at 4 cancer 45 at a rate of 1 degree = 1 year brings gacy to year nine... that is sa sun at 4 aries 59 which directly squares the mars/pluto midpoint.. in midpoint use any planet hard aspecting the midpoint is considered 'in' the midpoint...

At the age of nine, Gacy was molested (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_molestation) by a family friend,[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy#cite_note-FOOTNOTESullivanMaiken2000257-5) a contractor who would take Gacy for rides in his truck, then fondle him. Gacy never told his father about these incidents as he was afraid he would bear the blame in his father's eyes.

[TransformingSelf]

Dr. Farr, thank you for your brilliant explanation, with words that come from the perspective of Vedic astrology. It is reminiscent of the origin of language and how different words represent the same ideas that we observe and experience in life. Your important observations from the Vedic method confirm the astrological presences in his life. I can definitely see how Neptune becomes a "de-facto" ruler as you point out and the Jupiter conjunct Lilith aspect as extreme indulgence in sexual affairs. Notice the unity through different analysis techniques!
Sandstone, we have you to thank for creating this riveting study of Gacy. When I first looked at Gacy's chart, the position of Mars next to Jupiter in the 7th house suggested abundance in aggression and violence in relationships, including sexual aggression. The aspect that worsens this violence is Mars in opposition to the Ascendant which adds on to this overwhelming sexual aggression and violence as a lack of control in the self originating from inner competition about his worthiness. I can see him questioning himself: "Do I deserve to be in a relationship or not?" This inner competition is transferred into his outer relationships with his wives and victims, as he seeks to control them in an effort to control himself. This control is taken to the extreme, especially when Neptune controls his chart and his Sun and Moon are in such close proximity as you've all observed, when boundaries are dissolved and anger and violence are allowed free reign. His sexual abuse and violence were also ensconced in him because of Pluto in Leo in his 8th house where infatuation with the taboos of combined sex and death is prevalent. That 8th house holds memories of the past, which were reawakened with his Saturn Return, an important time that you draw our attention to, Sandstone, when Saturn, representative of his father and the family friend you talk about, returned to haunt him as a controlling and abusive man, obsessed with dominating the material, as his father's occupation as a machinist and family friend's occupation as contractor, involve manipulation with hands, and Gacy re-lived his father and the family friend in his own occupation as a successful contractor, again manipulating with hands, with Saturn in his daily 6th house of Taurus/material realm, and abusive relationships with young men, never being able to reach settlement with his father's treatment of him and the pain and bitterness that he lived through his childhood.

[sandstone]

if you put gacys chart in right ascension as opposed to zodiac positions, or what some call 'in mundo' the chart takes on a different look...

the sun and moon opposite to neptune move into a strongly defined t square with the mars and jupiter in the 7th.. this would help explain more of the fathers aggressive nature towards gacy as i understand it.. i don't know how to post a chart from astro.com of gacys chart in mundo and i am not even sure if astro.com offers this service, but if someone knows how and can post gacys chart in mundo it would be helpful for those interested to it..

also in mundo the venus comes into a more sharp opposition to pluto as well..

[TransformingSelf]

Astrology never ceases to amaze and teach a person all the different perspectives that can be. You've taught me another way of seeing a natal chart, Sandstone. I did not know anything about "right ascension," or "in mundo," but my knowledge of certain Romance languages tells me that the word "mundo" is Spanish for "world" and its cousin, the word, "monde," is French for "world." With knowledge of art, I can see "mundo" as matching the image of a "mound," round surface sticking out of the ground. Putting them both together, "in mundo," sounds like an astrological perspective of creating a natal chart from the fixed vantage point of standing on Earth. I looked now for the "in mundo" chart, but could not find it online. The sites explain that it can be purchased from computer programs like Kepler or Solar Fire.
But I feel that even without these programs, I can see how this chart might look like in my mind's eye, with Mars and Jupiter at a perpendicular angle to Neptune in Virgo directly opposite the Sun and Moon in Pisces and as you found, it definitely puts the attention on his father. The T square pronounces the Neptunian effects on Gacy's self-identification, so that he does not see himself in his own, but in his father's eyes. His father created the illusion and lodged it into him, that his life depended on him and treated him as he would property, Saturn in the 6th in Taurus represents his father as a traditional materialist or someone with the view of family as his property, to treat them as he pleased. He treated Gacy using threats and controlling his mind, Mars in Gemini, that he could take away Gacy's food, home, physical security, and life, to force his obedience to him. Gacy succumbed to this mind controlling behavior because he, like his father, later in life treated his victims the same way, made them believe that their lives depended on him, and he took their lives away when they contested him, to prove to himself he had some semblance of control and worthiness. Gacy strongly re-lives his father, repeating his dichotomy, aloof and distant in relationships, Saturn conjunct Uranus, at times, but verbally and physically abusive and aggressively forceful at others. Gacy never knew himself in his own right, with his father's and his own self-delusion, Mars and Jupiter with Neptune and with Sun and Moon in T square, that he was insignificant and unworthy as his father believed him to be.

[sandstone]

hi t-s,
try this link to gacys chart and open up the pdf files to see if the in mundo locations show.. i am just trying this for the first time and have to run... back later, cheers james

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=o3zfileZmWz5L-u1326769195&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=1&nho2=1&btyp=2&mth=afz&sday=17&smon=3&syr=1942&hsy=-1&zod=&orbp=&rs=0&ls=1&topo=1&asp=0&ast=

6 pages of data on the pdf link, but doesn't show the in mundo positions that i can see.. i will have to play around with this..

[TransformingSelf]

Thank you for the link, James! The chart was almost what I envisioned it, except Mars and Jupiter were placed in Gemini more towards the right, exactly at a ninety degree angle to both Sun and Moon and Neptune in my mind. I couldn't see or open any PDF files on the link, which could just be computer stubbornness.
I also found an article by Kenneth Bowser about aspects "in mundo" viewed from the Earth's equator, and the examples he gives of Albert Einstein's and Robert Hand's charts "in mundo" are by using the "Geocentric, Fagan-Allen, and Campanus" options on astro.com. Here is his article- http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/articles/aspects_in_mundo.pdf (http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/articles/aspects_in_mundo.pdf)
I tried it for Gacy's chart and this is the link for it- http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?lang=e&gif=astro_2gw_01_john_wayne_gacy_hc.17461.34124.gi f&res=100&va=&cid=lmyfileZaQ9UC-u1226722163

[sandstone]

hi t-s ,

the chart has a link for a pdf file which you can open which gives a lot of data.. however it doesn't include 'in mundo' or right ascension positions as i was hoping... i can get this info on my astro program, but do not have a service to upload a chart from my computer...

on the other hand astro.com does provide harmonic charts - 10 to be specific beginning with 2 and going to 10.. one is not able to alter the harmonic chart choices... but if you look at the 8th harmonic, you get an idea of what i am looking at in the 16th harmonic where i was mentioning the connection between mars to the neptune/venus/moon cluster tied together very closely via 45/135/180 aspects... note the opposition in the 8th harmonic chart between mars on the one side with neptune/venus/moon on the other.. this is what i mentioned in my first post on gacy.. mars is a very active part to this planetary cluster..

you can also see this in the 4th harmonic, but it shows up as a t square with mars at the top and moon/neptune opp venus on the bottom.. note how close the aspects are between one another and this is extended out to the 4th harmonic..

if i can pull up a free 'in mundo' chart for gacys planets in right ascension, i will post it here.. i might have to do it an alternative way off my astro prog..


http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?lang=e&gif=astro_299gw_01_john_wayne_gacy_hw.23220.47344. gif&res=100&va=&cid=o3zfileZmWz5L-u1326769195

[TransformingSelf]

Hello James,

Don't worry about downloading the "in mundo" positions. As long as you can see it, that is what is important. The strangeness with my learning style is that I literally have to figure out how any aspect works and especially, why it works, before I understand it and can pass on that understanding. What helps me is roughly drawing the planets in their aspect degrees, even if I never get to see them on a computer program.
I must have irrationally deduced yesterday, but from the Bowser article on "in mundo aspects," I thought that the Campanus option on astro.com was the same as the "in mundo" one because he gave the examples of Albert Einstein and Robert Hand in Campanus while describing the "in mundo" aspect in reference to them.
Thank you for the link with the harmonics! I was able to see the 8th harmonic chart that you mentioned, and I think it shows some aspects that were not as readily apparent from the natal Zodiac chart. I saw that opposition between Mars on one side and Neptune, Venus, and Moon on the other, that you were talking about, and Gacy's mother came to my mind. Venus and Moon aspects are representative of the mother because of the emotions of love and safety that they accentuate. It seems as if Gacy looked to his mother for the emotional love and safety that his father deprived him, and believed that her love was all he needed to make it through life. But as the 4th harmonic chart shows, with Mars in a T square to Moon and Neptune, opposite Venus, Gacy's mother let him down by keeping a more distant relationship because she, herself, was abused by his father and in need of love and emotional safety. The Neptune, Venus, and Moon trio imports that Gacy sought a relationship with his mother, almost like Freudian Oedipal complex, to shield her from the violence and wrath of his father, and so they both could receive the love they were lacking in their lives. The proximity of this planetary grouping looks as though Gacy, his mother, and siblings were on one side, supporting each other, against their father, Mars representation. But his father severed his mother's connection to her children by overwhelming control and force, so that she was consumed by his will and feared for her and her children's lives if she tried to defend them. Gacy may have lived under the illusion that his mother would save him from his father in childhood and later, kept the illusion of being saved in his adult relationships with his wives, as he looked for that same emotional love and nurturance from them. But he did not realize that his dependancy would not let the relationships continue, and his low self-esteem was what was holding him back. It looks like the cycle of deception (Neptune) with his mother continued to his own adult relationships, when he involved himself with women who he thought would save him, like his mother, but it turned out those women were only concerned about themselves and emotionally unavailable, as his mother was. Those 45, 135, and 180 aspects magnify the impact of Mars, his father's influence over his whole life, because he defined his life by what he saw, his father's willpower and domination over his mother and family. The Mars in opposition to Neptune, Venus, and Moon strongly speaks of his inability to define his life by emotion because of the fear that he might not ever have the love he needed, therefrom not being able to express that love back into his relationships.

[sandstone]

hi t-s

i have a learning style that is similar.. i need to see charts as opposed to reading descriptions of them.. the harmonic set of charts in that link help clarify some of my comments for example.. talking about mars position in gacys chart in relation to the feminine planets with neptune is not possible to see when looking at a 360 chart... and it is not possible to see using standard aspects either, like oppositions, squares and etc.. the only way you can see these connections are thru the use of a 90 or 45 degree wheel, a tool invented by astrologers to essentially look at 8th and 16th harmonic aspects, along with midpoints.. if one is interested in learning more about midpoints or even series aspects further out then the 4th harmonic which is the square essentially, then this is what they need to familiarize themselves with.

viewing a chart 'in mundo', or right ascension is also unorthodox and not very many astrologers are looking at these types of charts.. usually every chart is looked at in zodiac position, as opposed to right ascension.. you will see the astro differently, depending on what system you are using for looking at the data.. many astrologers, especially ones just starting out, generally don't look at this data.. maybe it is just as well, as there is much to consider when learning about astrology!

gacys relationship to his mom and his 2 wifes is peculiar.. his first wife accuses him of sodomy which he is convicted and spends time in jail on and his 2nd wife realizes early on that she can't continue with him.. obviously on one level he was charming enough to persuade them to be with him! he moved back in with his mom after getting out of jail and she helped to buy the house where he committed most of the murders too.. i am not sure what there relationship was, but she sounds as though she led a tough life married to a hard drinker who abused some or all of her kids and who died young.. perhaps people do things out of a sense of expediency, and or necessity that is hard to fully comprehend when looking back in retrospect.. one wonders just how much gacys mom knew of her son's activities..

in the older astrology books i have been reading, mercury - mars hard aspects like the square in gacys chart come in for some bad mojo with regard to the persons involvement with young people sexually speaking.. i suppose this stands to reason up to a point... mercury represents the young and mars is the planet connected to sexuality and aggression.. excluding uranus position for a moment, the fact this mercury/mars square sits so closely to the angles once again verifies for me the importance of planets and planets in aspect on the angles.. if i was to suggest one thing to pay attention to when looking at an astrology chart it would be this : pay close attention to planets on angles!!!

something about mercury as trickster rings true as well!

nice talking with ya t-s!

[TransformingSelf]

Hello James,

I have really enjoyed your discussion to the utmost and the in-depth study that you dedicate to astrology. I think you know Gacy more than he knew himself. He was subject to Neptunian delusions which disconnected him from the realities of his life and a realistic understanding of himself. If you think of your idea of hindsight's validity, you can see that Gacy, who was not as critical, ended up in self-demise. He lacked the wisdom and foresight that comes from hindsight, to help him move forward.
Yes, I see the depth that comes from the harmonic charts. It's like magnifying aspects, midpoints, and planetary links with a magnifying glass. These detailed charts make a difference in what they show. I'm wondering why a right ascension chart is so shunned by astrologers. When I first came to the forum, I had understood astrology as subjective in its signification. So much of interpreting is a result of personal perspective. The Greco-Romans interpreted constellations by their beliefs and values that set their thought patterns, but it leads one to wonder about different thought patterns. I think of different tribes in the traditional world and how they saw the constellations back then. Their worldviews are linked to nature and the cosmos, so they would see the constellations as the animals and plants they were familiar with and depended on for their survival. Astrology is in personal experience as people breathe their perceptions into it. That's the reason why the right ascension chart should be considered because it may just unearth explanations that have been overlooked in the Zodiac charts. A longitudinal pathway of the constellations would definitely show aspects from a different side, and planetary influences that are represented by their degrees of influence.
The harmonic charts stress Gacy's parents, by the Mars representative of his father, and Venus and Moon as his mother. The angles and midpoints point to these childhood influences as formative of his behavior in adult life. It is telling in a way that his fate of being raised in a destructive family bears some responsibility for his actions, responsibility that he evaded in his adult life by continuing his father's destructive and violent behavioral cycle. Mars in opposition to his Ascendant sets the stage for his life, intense battles with himself that erupted into his relationships. With Mars in a T square to the Moon and Neptune opposite Venus, there is overwhelming battle in the family, but the Venus looks to be isolated, the position of the mother figuring out how to best defend herself and her children, and a distance she forms from them to protect them from their father's rage. I can see how after his death, she would bridge that distance and feel free to show her love for them, and Gacy would seek her out for the nurturance that he missed in his childhood. I think that the strong influence of Neptune on Venus affects Gacy's mother's views of him, that though she would have felt his violence and cruelty towards others, Moon trine Ascendant, she would choose not to see it and remain deluded from reality as he was. Human behavior, like Gacy's and his family's is linked to the psychology of damage control to the ego and self. Benath it all was fear, that facing reality would prove powerlessness and a lack of control over their lives and selves. This pervasive fear fits in perfectly with the family's powerlessness and susceptibility to violence, abuse, and self-destruction.
I definitely also see the Mars and Mercury aspects as abuse, sexual, physical, and verbal, with young people, and traditional Greco-Roman societies laid the foundations for these interpretations in agreement with their beliefs. Mercury is duplicitous like the contrasting planets positioned so close to each other in the natal chart. They all scream out Gacy's two sides, the emotionally vulnerable and the emotionally stoic. Just as his chart shows, he had no boundaries as to his emotions and could not define what he felt, so he lives his life by what he saw, his father's treatment of him. Gacy admired his father's powerful persona, a persona that he found lacking in himself, which furthered his own low self-esteem.
You find angles, midpoints, and planetary positions important in astrology for a reason. They refer you to the deviations and changes in one's life that deeply affect the person, so he or she is never the same.

[sandstone]

thanks t-s,

i feel the same about our conversation.. i have enjoyed the interaction with you and i feel you offer a certain perspective i don't have which is great!

the idea of contrasting astrology as science with the idea of astrology as art is an interesting one..

charts are just a way of taking a picture.. they are never perfect though in that with astrology the picture isn't flat and one dimensional like a chart is when we look at it.. it would be better to have a 3d chart, but we don't have that yet... you have to make it in your mind if you look at a persons chart and consider the different ways to ponder a chart.. mostly we settle for a one size fits all in and so doing we end up cutting out a lot of info that could be considered equally useful to examine..

i think this is where the view from the ecliptic - zodiac degree positions - typical charts you see posted at this site - are put on a pedestal of sorts - while an 'in mundo' or right ascension chart for example - is unheard of, or rarely if ever discussed.. it is on other sites like skyscript for which i am grateful..

another view into a chart is declinations and latitude positions.. for example how gacys venus and mercury are in parallel declination, while gacys venus and pluto are in the same latitude... what does it mean for gacy? astrologers of former times used to examine these details..

[TransformingSelf]

Hello James,

Isn't that what makes life meaningful? To be able to appreciate different perspectives, so that we can understand that they may not be so different when we have the ability to perceive them as those of our community can. We find that overlapping unity connecting our differences.
It is interesting, as you say, that astrology can be considered as a science in some perspectives and an art in others. But when it comes down to its basis, like a Venn diagram, there is overlap between science and art, which is why astrology can be considered as both. Astrology has its science in the positions of the stars and planets and their movements in space and in the systematic mathematical calculations of the degrees of the planets and stars and angles between each one. This science involves artistic concepts of shapes in the drawing of the natal chart and planets in circular forms and linear perspective in the lines connecting the planets that form angles in full range. One interpretation of art and astrology is the visual representation of the natal chart and planets and stars inside it. This art involves scientific concepts in the systematic drawing of geometrical circular forms and planetary symbols and lines conjuncting, squaring and opposing planets to create their corresponding angles. The art of astrology can also include interpretation of the meanings of planetary symbols and interrelationships with each other and with the natal chart as a whole.
I've been wondering, with all the technological advances that are available now, why computers are unable to produce a three dimensional simulation of a natal chart that rotates at different angles, so we can see both scientific and artistic influences of it? With all the satellites in space, there has to be a way to retrieve astronomical information and pass it on to computers in a program that conveys it in different astrological forms, whether shown at the same time or each form continuing into the other. There is that wide scope of technology, that includes sites like Skyscript, so you would think that it can include three dimensional astrological charts. This wide scope can also be found in astrology where it can be expressed in ways other than a natal chart-mathematical graph, literary poem, and musical sounds and frequencies as some examples.
I remember when I first read of declinations, I thought of them as aspects by degree, so the Venus and Mars in parallel declination in Gacy's chart would mean that relationships involve overwhelming passion and aggression as in his childhood and adult relationships. I see it as an intense conjunction where both Venus and Mars create the same effects. This effect is similar to being in the same latitude, where I think of both planets positioned on the Equator in my mind's eye, but showing that they are also at the same level in energy and effect. Gacy's Venus and Pluto at the same latitude show that his relationships involve obsession and deviance, as his deviance from societal values by his obsessions with the taboos of both sex and death and the troubles he had giving and receiving love, stemming from his childhood psychological influences. Both declinations and latitude remind me of convergence, where planets and stars work together to create a unified effect.

[sandstone]

hi t-s!

indeed regarding the different perspectives.. i love that thought of yours about developing 3d software to be able to move the chart around and look at the data from different angles.. i am sure it is in the works... hopefully it is in the works...

i think what you said about venus/pluto parallel holds true... this was one of the aspects that shows up in a much tighter opposition in right ascension.. perhaps the declination data is partly reflecting the right ascension info.. i have to learn more about how all these various pieces of info fit together better.. my understanding of the astronomy isn't nearly as strong as my understanding of the astro..

my thought on the hindsight is 20/20 comment was mostly how astrology needs to look back in order to see just how relevant the techniques are to events that actually happened.. it is like a scientific thing in this regard.. you do an experiment and you see what the results were kind of thing.. a big dilemma for astrology which some might not see as a dilemma is our subjectivity enters into so many of our conclusions and this is especially true when looking back.. how much of what we see on gacys chart would we be able to see if we didn't know anything about gacy? would we have thought he had an artistic side that hopefully found a positive outlet for this, or? these kinds of speculations on how we take the data and apply it is interesting when doing it with a chart in retrospect...

the other thought to this is if you have enough planets or points in a chart you are bound to draw more connections rather then less!!! this alone would be reason to use less, but then we might be excluding something that was an important part of the puzzle - like eris at the mars/pluto midpoint by square and so close! doing the directed chart for the first time gacy was essentially raped age 9 or 10? - notes upstream) and seeing this midpoint being hit by sun directed to eris at 5 aries was very interesting to me... anyway, i am through rambling for tonight!! i spent a wee bit too much time on the internut today and didn't get much done otherwise.. signing off.. cheers james

[TransformingSelf]

James, you could be the next winner of the World Technology Award if you develop that 3d software! Ptolemy would be so proud of you, looking down from those same constellations that he studied so deeply. Making astrological advances is a worthy goal, and one would wish people would pursue these goals instead of destructive ones.
It seems to me that parallels can be interpreted from different angles. They can move towards the same direction in the Zodiac charts and rotate around to an opposition in the right ascension one. Yes, the declination aspects do reflect right ascension, and they seem to merge their processes of working. For example, both Venus and Pluto work independently, Venus influencing relationships and Pluto influencing the psyche and psychological behavior, but they converge together in the result they achieve, engaging in taboo psychological behaviors in relationships. Drawing the planets and aspects helps in understanding astronomy, and astronomy is the basic layout of astrology.
Thank you for your explanation. Now, I understand your Hindsight is 20/20 theme! I can see what you are saying about the science of astrology, and it brings up a lot of ideas about astrological validity and fate versus free-will. When it comes down to astrological validity, the question I have is whether scientific techniques alone can arrive at it? Though science is accepted as universal truth, it is in effect, much the product of individual perception, use of the five senses to understand external phenomena. The conclusions are reached by our own reasoning, and these thought processes are subjective because they come from within our own minds. This is one of the reasons why science is continuously modified as new findings abrogate previous ones. Scientific techniques are limited to systematic observations that apply to all situations, but here is where they may not adequately solely be able to explain and validate astrology. Astrology is as much abstract as it is concrete. Its symbols are representations of traits and attributes describing individuals, but these symbols are unseen and these unseen aspects lead me to believe that a similar unseen technique is needed to test astrological validity. I feel there is such a technique, but it is difficult for me to explain it. It's like seeing an astrological chart come alive as though each symbol was communicating with each other and revealing the happenings of one's personal history, present situation, and future revelation. If we want to "see" validity in Gacy's chart then we need to rely on science because it is based on techniques that we "see," but we can also come to "know" astrology's validity without seeing by relying on instinct and sensitivity to the communications in the chart. In this meaning, astrology can be understood as both science and art. It depends on how you view it. The idea of fate and free-will is also found in astrology as science and art. Fate is written in the observable external angles, midpoints, and aspect influences, and free-will in the connections, that you talk about, between angles, midpoints, and planetary aspects.
Yes, it is better to look for as many connections as possible because that is where the astrological validity can be checked. I see Eris at 5 Aries and squaring the Mars/Pluto midpoint to be a disruptive rash and impulsive force, the man who raped Gacy when he was a nine/ten year old as you found, but also representative of Gacy's subsequent vengeful nature, raping young men to free himself from the pain he felt of being raped as a child. Here is fate and free-will, his fate of being raped by the family friend and free will of choosing to continue the vicious cycle of rape to redress his pain.
I'm sure the internet had some exciting astrological wisdoms in its witty ways, especially this forum. It is gladdening to see astrology bring people together. Enjoy your exploration of it!

[sandstone]

t-s

it ain't gonna happen! my interest lies in different areas then developing software, or technology related developments.. i like research though, lol...
i did see a link (http://www.levante.org/svarogich/en/principia_en/content.html) you might enjoy that is related to the idea of seeing charts in 3d and a book i am just starting to read - primary directions by martin gansten has a chapter with a similar title that i have yet to read...it is the next chapter for me to read actually! chapter 3..

>>the question I have is whether scientific techniques alone can arrive at it? << i don't think they can! someone has to process the data and intuit, or interpret all of it.. the human element has to come into the picture, which is like a more complicated version of looking at these charts then in 3d!!! you basically say this in your next sentence that i am now re-reading...

>> Astrology is as much abstract as it is concrete << i think this is quite true when you think of the degree of subjectivity that enters into interpretations.. subjectivity plays a much bigger role then many in the astrological or scientific community would probably like to acknowledge..

i really like what you say here >>In this meaning, astrology can be understood as both science and art. It depends on how you view it. The idea of fate and free-will is also found in astrology as science and art. Fate is written in the observable external angles, midpoints, and aspect influences, and free-will in the connections, that you talk about, between angles, midpoints, and planetary aspects. <<

and i especially like your comments near the end as well where you seem to take a more compassionate view towards gacy in light of his early formative years.. i think when we look at these people more closely and find out the horrific conditions they grew up in or were exposed to, it sometimes helps us to put in perspective why someone could go so wrong and come across as so evil.. creating a culture where families have the resources to deal with all the problems mankind faces seems to be a small footnote in the greater full length story of economics and everything being driven by the $, while leaving behind so much of what we could have on this planet...

okay, now i am getting philosophical and off track the subject of gacy's astro chart! when i figure out how to post a chart off my own computer, i will return and put the right ascension chart for gacy here for others to see.. cheers and have a nice weekend t-s! james

[TransformingSelf]

Well, your research can inspire an IT professional to develop one. It takes a community of great minds, such as this one, to produce spectacular works. I wish I was technologically savvy with computers and software, but it seems my Uranian energy is more devoted to influencing thoughts. Yes, research is penetrating and helps us know at a deep level, the inner and outer factors at work in our lives. I used to be more involved in research in the past, until a negative experience, which taught me that research is rewarding when it compensates the effort and devotion that you put into it. It is difficult to have anything but appreciation for researchers and the findings they share with their community.
Thank you for the link about the "Principles of Polyzodiacal Astrology!" I just started reading the first paragraph about societies developing their own worldviews, and the process of arriving at these worldviews is enormously interesting. This idea relates to what we were talking about with the Greco-Romans and their interpretation of astrology, which can also be said about the Vedic people and their interpretation of sidereal astrology. When we come down to our modern notions of astrology, so much was influenced by the "rationality" of Enlightenment thinkers. I'm catching up on my reading this weekend, after a heavy workweek, and found this research site on Gacy's chart that you'll love. Here is the link- http://www.astrologyresearchjournal.org/article110603/ (http://www.astrologyresearchjournal.org/article110603/)
It talks about the same 0, 90, and 180 degree angles that you pointed out, and the research found that fifty percent more planetary activity there, speaks of trouble and violation. I think this research ties in to what we were just discussing, as another way of validating astrology from comparing findings to what fellow researchers have found.
Yes, I absolutely also believe that astrology involves intuition in being able to piece together a chart and understand its subject. This intuition is more visible when in conjunction to the natal chart, you have a painting or picture of the person. Behavioral traits can be directly seen where with the natal chart alone, the behaviors have to be discerned from abstract symbols. I was thinking about how much the Mona Lisa reveals her painter Da Vinci on Powerion's thread, and this thought leads me to wonder how much information about Gacy could be gathered from a painting of him. And this thought also brings back our discussion of astrological validity through different mediums, art, history, language, and more.
Don't worry about philosophizing, because it all relates to the astrology of Gacy's chart and why he committed violent crimes and behaved towards his fellow man with ruthlessness. Yes, personal history affects a person because it sums up all the moments that profoundly affect this person's life, and so to understand this person, we would, in a way, need to step into him or her to know what was happening, and this activity is compassion at work.
Enjoy your weekend, James!

[sandstone]

thanks t-s!

thanks for the link as well... it is very difficult to do that type of research hoping to find results.. it is like trying to figure out a way to win at the stock market or lottery... remember the folks at ltcm? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management) they figured they had a fool proof method based off sophisticated mathematic formulas to ensure consistent results in their favour.. they even won the nobel prize in economics prior to bringing the markets to the edge of complete disaster... some stories in life are very informative, like this one.. actually this reminds as i edit this post of taleb the guy who wrote 'fooled by randomness' and 'the black swan'... check out the black swan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory) if you get a chance.. excellent book on peoples inherent tendency to make conclusions off random data... it is a real eye opener and i found the book to be brilliant.

i just don't think it is easy to find any clear set of markers for murders for example...i think a big part of the reason for this is i don't think folks start out in life thinking they are really going to be a good murderer... quite the opposite i am sure... i think you can get good results with those in life who have clearly defined goals from an early age and who follow thru and reach these goals... i think astrology can have more to say on these types of people then murderers in many ways...

well, i am divided on this actually now that i say it all.. i just don't think looking at sun signs, or sign emphasis, or house emphasis, or even aspect emphasis necessarily will provide the answers to much of what some are looking for with astrology... another whole area of exploration that john addey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Addey_%28astrologer%29) was instrumental is bringing to the foreground is harmonics.. i think inroads could be made in this area, but i don't know if anyone is doing it.. until the mainstream of society gets onside with astrology, it will be a while before we get some serious research into the value that astrology can offer our world... hopefully it will all be used for the best that it has to offer too...

you express some unusual and interesting ideas in your post! i am going to stick with the dry data for the moment.. thanks for sharing that link and we'll be talkin' - james

[SniperBomber328]

I wish I could start delineating charts like a lot of people here! Some things posted here looked rather interesting. Too bad I am still in the first few baby steps towards the deeped parts of Astrology. Thanfully I am past the basics, and so I have planted the seeds. Now to do the watering/sowing/reaping metaphorically of course.

[TransformingSelf]

Sniperbomber328, I'm sure you have a profound understanding of astrology! Join in whenever you feel like it.

Hello James! Yes, I see exactly what you are saying about the randomness of the data, and I think it is because the set-up of the research is impersonal in that it attempts to identify serial killers from general patterns in their charts at an aggregate level. It is creating a deductive model where Gacy's chart can be understood from the aggregate of serial killers' charts. But as you found, what is lost are the specifics in Gacy's chart that contain explanations about his motivations and behaviors. This finding returns to our discussion on fate versus free-will in the charts. How can a person's life be random when there were specific factors that caused inclinations and behaviors in that person? These factors can be seen in the astrological symbols and their aspects in the 4th house of childhood home and family. It's almost like these astrological houses and symbols form the fate of the person's life, external people and circumstances that influence the person, to make the choices that he or she does. At the same time, free-will can be shown in the representations of astrological symbols and signs that represent the person's inclination for independence and assertiveness. It is overlooking the specifics of personal charts that lends itself to questionable research as it is supposed to be inclusive of all factors for there to be sound conclusions.
I think that each case is different and that means different indexes that explain violence and killing. Yes, it's true that murdering is not on babies' minds! The aggression and violence is learned from external influences, and imitated in some cases. The psychology behind the murdering is only really understood from hindsight, there is your theme again, when the originating and influencing factors are considered in examination of the type of murder and motive for it. Astrology involves the originating and influencing factors, but specifically in the context of each person's particular natal chart and aspect connections.
You are not alone in your contemplation of what astrology is and how it works. I have been thinking of this question, and it prompted me to start a thread about it. I do feel that astrology is more than the symbols, aspects, houses, and Zodiac. Addey had a point. I feel that there is something intrinsically astrological in us, that we are able to know the connections between all forms of existence. Harmonics is specifically that numerical connection, that implies our strive for balance and ability to exist over time. There are so many perspectives of astrology that come from the human mind. I find that my own are no different from the astrologers in this forum as I relate to everyone. From the responses, one can feel the connections between ourselves and spatial bodies, in our quest for the meaning of existence.

[sandstone]

s-b-328

you'll get there soon enough!

t-s,

thanks for the additional comments..

yes, every situation and chart is different.. taking a cookie cutter approach to them all has limits. on the other hand one has to start somewhere.. i was reading the other day how older astrologers from many centuries ago didn't get caught up in house systems... instead the focus was on the angles and where the planets were in relation to these.. sounds simple, but i think it is a good place to work from. i have found planets near the angles very informative.. also, the sign position is valuable.. in this regard the position of mars in gacys chart would have greater bearing then uraus from the pov of the ascendant angle has sag/gemini as opposed to scorpio/taurus.. that mars rules the 12th house is interesting either way... put it in sidereal and it changes it all! i suppose this is why i see astrology as relative..

[TransformingSelf]

Hello James,

You have inspired more thought with your reference to Addey and harmonics, and the older astrologers who did not want to be pinned down to house systems. If you think about it, those house systems are subjective interpretations about how a person's life can be arranged and "relative" as you've said. A person's life can be arranged in different ways. Take your love of numerical data. Suppose one were to arrange the natal chart into number segments instead of houses and interpret those numbers according to their symbolic amounts. The Ascendant would equate to the number 1 because it is that moment in time when the person is born and is in a way, physically separated from being attached to the mother or parent. That number 1 represents the self, individual personality traits, values, and innermost thoughts and feelings that start from that birth moment and develop into adulthood. These thoughts and feelings are influenced by surroundings and other people, where number 2 begins as the second segment of the Zodiac. Number 2 speaks of the person's growth into adulthood and coupling, and that person's thoughts, feelings, and behaviors in a relationship with a partner of some kind and the partner's influence over him or her or relationship to a career. This coupling creates a child or an addition to the family in the third segment or Number 3, where the person's relationship to family as a mini-society or relationship to career is starting to develop. Segment 3 leads into Segment 4 when that family expands into a family with more children or extended family with grandparents and great-grandparents or in the case of career, enters into wealth or loss. Yet, the connections of this family expand to other people in their communities as in Segment 5 where the person must relate to in-laws, family friends, and neighbors or co-workers in career. These local connections grow into larger connections with people of the same nation as the person meets with unknown people connected to family friends, friends, in-laws, neighbors, and people through career in Segment 6. These national friends bring the person in contact with the international world, and in Segment 7, the person makes contact with international people and places through personal or career connections and develops a relationship with them. Yet, the different people that the person meets, are not so different in their humanness, and the person individually reacts to bonding together with this universal community in different ways in Segment 8. Beyond the universal bonding is a spiritual connection that tightens the intellectual and emotional connections in place in Segment 9, so the person relates to the community at a spiritual level, trying to understand his or her place in the larger scheme of life. To understand this larger scheme, the person must look to the past, historical roots, relationships in family, and the world at large in Segment 10, which helps the person relate to his or her situation in the present. This understanding will pave the way for the person's future yearnings in Segment 11, and what the person will or will not do to change from the cycles of the past. The answer lies with the individual in House 12, where past and future meet at the person in the present and the life that person paints in the enlarging canvas of space.
Imagine Gacy's chart divided into numbers with angles and midpoints falling into these number segments. Think about whether we would see him the same way as we did with his chart divided into houses. And, if you really want to get complex, change the numbers from 1-12, to negative and positive integers that meet back at the person in the present, the point of zero: self-completion.

[sandstone]

hi t-s!

actually the house system question is a good example of why i think it is necessary to approach astrology from the angle of art as opposed to science... when you see how many systems there are to choose from, not to mention crazy ideas like interception of houses and etc, you quickly see how everyone has there own idea on astrology that needs to be honoured.. the only way to do this is to believe that astrology is more art then science..

most house systems would put gacy's mercury in the 3rd... whole sign/house or even equal house will help put it in the 4th, but otherwise mercury is strengthened by being in the 3rd... it is square the ascendant axis and in the sign pisces a sign that is not supposed to be good for mercury, in spite of the brilliant einstein having this same sign placement.. one could say his mercury was strong but in a sign that made it more problematic... and, mercury is the ruler of the gemini planets and his midheaven as well! mercury is critical to most chart analysis one could do on gacy..

t-s i don't really have anything to add to gacys chart at this point, so i am probably going to stop commenting until someone else or something else comes up to motivate me... i have enjoyed our philosophical conversations here.. thanks for your enriching comments!!

[TransformingSelf]

Hi James,

Yes, I also think astrology will always be subject to the ideas of people, whether each one determines it as artistic, scientific, or a mixture of both. It is defined by their choice. Ideas like the interception of houses are showing us that astrology is connected. No single angle, midpoint, planet, star, or moment in a chart is isolated, but is connected to the others, much like a family tree.
Gacy's chart has these same interconnections written all over it, like every chart. His Mercury in Pisces is a problem, not only because Mercury is in Detriment, but also because of the connecting planetary and sign influences like the Sun and Moon in Pisces, Venus in Aquarius, and Saturn and Uranus in Taurus. These other planets and aspects stress that his own early abusive family experiences scarred him for the rest of his life, and left permanent shadows in everything he did and intended. Like Einstein, he could have applied his Mercury in Pisces positively, being adept with his hands, could have created sculptures and great works of art or studied astrology and communicated its spirituality by discovering models for the way it works. But his early family experiences imprinted into his psyche, pulling him into the self-destructive cycle that it created from the first. Gacy's chart speaks to me of the wonders of astrology and how it can guide us in making the best decisions for ourselves and our lives if we choose to consult and learn from it.
It's really I, who should be thanking you, for giving me the chance to share my perceptions of Gacy's astrology here and for drawing my attention to the science of astrology, its midpoints and angles as critical junctures in life. It is astrologers like you, who deserve the utmost reverence, for bringing the astrological community together in accepting each other, regardless of their type of astrology, but for their brilliant insights. I am sure that others will have plenty of interesting insights for you about Gacy's chart, and I hope they write them here. Thank you for the engaging discussions, James, and continue your remarkable discoveries!

[sandstone]

thanks for your kind words t-s.. i was wrong on the einstein mercury in pisces comment.. he has it right at the beginning of aries in a 1 degree conjunct with saturn which some would interpret as unfortunate.. 10 degree orb from his sun, doesn't qualify it for combust (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/combust.php), but it qualifies as 'under the suns beams' another term some older astrologers used... it is interesting the idea of mercury and its proximity to the sun, or saturn.. i was looking at the astro chart of john partridge (http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Partridge,_John) an interesting fellow from the 1600's who wrote some books on astrology that are supposed to be pretty good.. he does have mercury combust the sun... i can't accept this particular astrological tenet from the past...

as you can see, i am getting sidetracked thinking about lots of things to do with mercury.. mercury in pisces is prominent in gacys chart either way and perhaps as you say some others will comment on his chart.. i could always do a different persons chart too, lol... cheers!

[dr. farr]

Sandstone:
Many of the oldtime astrologers (especially those of the Islamic transitional-era times) considered that Mercury was very little affected by the combust state, and hardly at all by being under the sunbeams. I agree with this view (and, for me, I consider the combust orb for Mercury at not beyond 4 degrees from the Sun)

[sandstone]

thanks for the broadened view on this dr farr.. that makes more sense to me and glad to know this...

[TransformingSelf]

You were not wrong, James. According to sidereal astrology, his Mercury is in Pisces. This idea gets back to your interpretation of the "relativity" of astrology. A chart depends on a person's frame of reference. It can even be said for Mercury in John Partridge's chart, that it can be viewed as being combust from a longitudinal perspective, but from a latitudinal perspective, it looks conjunct. It can be said that his Mercury was strongly influenced by his self, Sun, as all his communications carried a message of free will and being in charge of your destiny as clearly, he believed in his own free will to teach astrology to humanity.
Being sidetracked may be just what you need, when upon hindsight you find that it helps you understand your topic from another angle. You could always compare Partridge's chart to Gacy's chart or analyze Partridge's or another person's charts alone as theirs would have the same houses, planets and types of aspects. All of astrology is connected, and Mercury helps one in making these connections. It looks like your thoughts on Mercury are giving you more insights from others. You are well on your way to more remarkable discoveries!

[sandstone]

thanks transforming self! i love your positive attitude that you freely share.. keep it up as the world needs a person like you!