Where is Terry?

[Francesca]

Due to the disrespect shown to my right to post my own question in my own way, I withdraw it.

[Draco]

The ascendant rises very early in Gemini, suggesting a premature question, but after thirty years, I can't see how the question is premature, unless this means that had you given this question more thought, the answer may have come clear to you.

Somehow I feel that it ought to be obvious to you where Terry is. I think that he is exactly where you would expect him to be, and maybe this is why the answer would have come to you given more thought. I say this because his significator Jupiter, being in Sagittarius and in the house that it rules, it is both in it's appropriate tropical and mundane houses, suggesting that Terry is exactly where you would expect to find him - he is at home, or at least, wherever you would imagine him to be, meaning that he has made no drastic change of location since you last saw him, he's still where you would think of him as being, where you would expect to find him.

As Jupiter occupies the West angle and rules it, I take this as an indication that Terry is to the West of where you are.

I ought to have asked you more questions before beginning this.

Did you ever move out of town from Terry? I wonder this because if you did, and where you used to be with Terry was in the West then this is where he is, where you left him and remember him as being.

I am not sure that the indication is that you are in different towns, as both of your significators occupy the same sign, but different houses, suggesting that you are in the same town but in different vicinities of that town, and as the significators do not behold each other, then obviously, you do not encounter each other. If both significators in the same sign don't show you being in the same town, then it may show that you are in the same country but different regions.

If we take Terry's direction from you as being in relation to your own significator, then Jupiter being further West of Mercury, still places Terry to the West of you.

I think that if you moved away to a different town to Terry, then Terry is in the same place that you remember him, especially if this place is to the West of where you are.

If not, then he is to the West of you in the same town or at least country, but in any case, he is nowhere unusual or unexpected as far as his location is concerned - he is where you would expect or imagine him to be, so if you don't expect him to have move to another country, he won't have done.

[Francesca]

Draco, thanks for looking at this. Can I respond? I live in upstate NY,on the southern shore of Lake Ontario. Canada is just north. I know you live in the UK, so that's why I'm setting this up. Although I did leave this area and raised my daughter to the East somewhat, I am currently only about 20 miles to the East of where Terry and I lived, so "to the west" covers a lot of area. Could you break it down abit? In terms of the US, is he in the NW, SW?

I am puzzled by your thought that he is nearby. It's a brand new idea to me.I have always assumed that after finishing his Master's he would have left the broken down rust belt town we grew up in, but I will try and check it out somehow. None of the listings on the internet are in this immediate area, but perhaps he is simply unlisted. If you think of anything else, please let me know. Thanks

[Draco]

Hi again Fran.

Just a brief look for now, but I might return to this tomorrow.


I live in upstate NY,on the southern shore of Lake Ontario. Canada is just north.


If you live close to the border, then it may have crossed your mind that he may have emigrated to Canada, but I don't think that this is so, because he is in his own sign and house, so he is described as being at home and not where he is a foreigner.

Your respective significators are both in the same zodiacal house of Sagittarius, so this is a further indication that he is in the same vicinity as you, which could either mean that he is in the same country, the USA, to the West, or in the same state, to the West. However, as NY state goes right up to the East Coast, we cannot get a state that is more westerly to it, so he is in the same state as you, NY state, but West of you.

The fact that you said that you live to the East of where you and Terry lived, seems to confirm that he is to the West of you. I said that he would probably be where you remember him, because I have to try and justify why it is that his significator appears in both of the houses that it is at home in, which I can only take to mean that he is exactly where you expect him to be, he is at home - but as you haven't seen him for thirty years I can only imagine that he is where you remember him to be, where he belongs according to your memory.

However, it could be looked at in another way. Do you ever recall Terry all those years ago having a desire or ambition to live in a particular place in NY state to the East of where you are? If this is the case, then his benefic significator at home in sign and house could indicate the fulfillment of his ambitions, he is where he belongs because he attained his desire. Just another idea.

Could he be in NYC? I am imagining that the Big Apple is to the West of you?

Have a think about these things, and tell me your thoughts.

When you said that you live East of where you both used to live, and considering that Terry's significator is very much at home, then I took this to mean that he may well still live back where you remember him.

You describe the town as a 'broken down rust belt town', so it is interesting that Terry's derived fourth house ruler, which will tell us more about the town in which he lives, is Saturn detriment and retrograde - so there is our 'broken down rust belt' of a town, and Saturn also appears in your own fourth house, describing your origins in this place.

These indications would suggest that he may well be in the town that you remember him being in, but if the town really is so bad, then he would seem to be doing particularly well in it in any case, as he is the greater benefic at home.

I do feel sure that he is in NY State to the West of where you are. It's just a case of where. With all I know, I would opt for the town that you both used to live in that is currently to the West of you, although I would also hazard a guess that he may be in New York City, but I doubt he is outside of American borders, and he is in the same state.

Wherever Terry is however, looking at the chart, I'm not too sure it would be a great idea to track him down anyway, and I get this from comparing the state of your significators.

You are Mercury in it's detriment and on the cusp of the eighth, so you are both essentially and accidentally debilitated in regard to this inquiry.

With Mercury in Jupiter's sign, then obviously he is of great concern to you at this time, and as you are on the cusp of the eighth, you are contemplating losses and regrets. However, Jupiter is in his domicile, and opposes the ascendant, so Terry's greatest concern is with himself, and as Jupiter receives Mercury into detriment and opposes your house, despite your reminisences about Terry, I cannot imagine that he would be as eager to contact you as you would be him.

In any case, Mercury is about to change signs as it is on the last degree of Sagittarius, so in a very short period of time, Jupiter, Terry, will not be figuring nearly as strongly on your mind anyway, and this strong desire to seek him out will pass.

I was interested in comparing the significator of your child with that of Terry, to see how he may react to finding out about a child he didn't know he had.

Your child, is signified by the same planet as you, Mercury detriment in Jupiter's sign, so unfortunately, it seems that Terry would not only not like to hear from you, but he wouldn't be too thrilled to find out he has a child either. I wondered if this may be because he has his own family, and that this would cause disturbances.

The significator of Terry's children (presuming he has them) are also the same as his, and with your children being with you, and his being with him, and with Jupiter so naturally averted to Mercury, despite Mercury's great interest in Jupiter, I think that this is saying that Terry is better left as he is, as it may not be wise to hunt him down and reveal that he has a family that he never knew about, because Jupiter has such contempt for Mercury despite all the attention Mercury is focusing on him, which is set to pass very soon anyway.

[Frisiangal]

Francesca: I want to contact my daughter's father who I have had no contact with in 30 years. We broke up before I knew I was pregnant. Yes, yes, I know I'm getting soft in my old age, but one of his grandchildren is so like him in personality, I got feeling sentimental and decided I should tell him about her.

Why have you waited over 30 years to ponder upon this? How does your daughter feel about your idea? Did she ever have any contact with, and get to know her biological father? Would she want her daughter to know the man that she never did? Would not such an eventual choice be hers to make?

You may feel to want to act through sentimentality but you must also be aware of and consider the consequences of such an action. It doesn't end with a communication from your side, "Hey Terry; it's me. Just to let you know you have a daughter and grandchildren you didn't know about."
Your call will be just the beginning of a situation for many, many other people who will live with the result of that information for the rest of their lives, as well as turn Terry's world upside down when he learns of a daughter he never knew existed and all that he may have missed. And, if upon being told it carresses his masculinity but further leaves him cold and he doesn't care? What then? How will that make your daughter feel?

I know this is the horary section, but whilst transiting Saturn is in your 12th house and due to semi-square Black Moon Lilith in Libra conjunct your Neptune (rulers 5th and 7th houses), conscience and regrets might be stronger than normal. Your wisest move might be to do NOTHING until the influence passes. With Mercury now in Capricorn, common sense might speak louder than sentiments.;)

F.

[Francesca]

Draco, thanks for your clarification. I am aware of what Terry's feelings would be, don't worry.

And Frisiangal, it never ceases to amaze me that people feel free to lecture others on basic interpersonal behavior based on a string of assumptions. What in the world makes you think that a grown up would not have considered the points you brought up?

FYI, Terry knew about his daughter before she was a year old, and in his anxiety about child support (which he was already paying to others) interfereing with his education, he opted for no contact. That was fine with me at the time, and it is only recently, when our grandson(age 7) called me last week and asked about his absent grandfather, that I began to consider the pros and cons of trying to hook them up. My feelings were if there was a chance that Terry has matured over the years he might play a limited but beneficial role. I still hope so, despite knowing that hearing from me would, at least, not make his day. At the time we knew eachother, he was striving mightily to become middle class, and I was running like hell away from that very thing, so there was always a clash of values. But, you know, life has a way of focusing us on the things that really matter as we pass from middle age to our "golden years".

Of course I discussed this with my daughter, it stuns me that you would think otherwise. And if you want me to worry about Terry's family and their tender feelings, sorry, I'm too busy worrying about these two bright,beautiful children who have a right to know something of their family/genetic background, and especially what health problems they might have inherited. We were both young and silly, but I saw my duty and did it, whereas this happy little Gemini butterfly flitted away without a thought to his rampant sperm. Give me a break, toots. He had other kids before her and knew the consequences of his actions.

[Frisiangal]

[QUOTE]
And Frisiangal, it never ceases to amaze me that people feel free to lecture others on basic interpersonal behavior based on a string of assumptions. What in the world makes you think that a grown up would not have considered the points you brought up?


Simply because the importance of such an act was raised through any answer an horary question would provide. That implies an amount of personal indecision; otherwise, why ask? No further information regarding the past, other than a 30 year silence, was presented and I lack psychic clairvoyance.:p
I am sorry if answering your message came across as a lecture when the written intent was well-meant and out of true feeling of the impact upon all concerned. A stone thrown in the waters of emotion will make ripples that stretch far before it sinks.


I'm too busy worrying about these two bright,beautiful children who have a right to know something of their family/genetic background, and especially what health problems they might have inherited.


That was something I purposely didn't mention and is the one solid reason that knowing one's family genetics is beneficial. But this didn't appear to be your reason when posing the horary question.

this happy little Gemini butterfly flitted away without a thought to his rampant sperm. Give me a break, toots. He had other kids before her and knew the consequences of his actions.

Which would seem to hit the nail on the head regarding any need of his to become involved with them, or on the part of your daughter's half-siblings to contact her.
Surely any decision for action must come from her?

Different people, different views? No hard feelings, I hope.

F.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[Francesca]

No, no hard feelings, you know I like you and respect your knowledge, and appreciate your help. Just don't embarass me pointing out things that I didn't ask, that any idiot should know, or force me to divulge info that should remain private, as I felt here. I didn't show any "personal indecision" by asking IF I should contact him- if I wanted someone's opinion on that, I would ask. I didn't, and I don't.If you feel you need to point something out to a poster, don't do it in a long list of "shoulds"-it's insulting. Or better yet, pm them.

[Francesca]

While I was posting to Frisiangal, your post popped up, Jagetoile. So while I am at it, I might as well be straight with you too. You are not qualified to diagnose anyone with "resistance", as far as I know. You said you read a book by Liz Green, who DOES have PhD in psychology, but do you? This must be my week for receiving insults. I made it plain to you that I was professionally qualified as a social worker, and understood basic psychology. I just don't agree with you.

If you insist on anger, though, I can provide it. These two posts are not related-they concern two different people and two different sets of circumstances. I responded to your point in the other thread, and in a polite manner. But it seems polite does not work with you. So let me be absolutely clear: This is an astrology site, not a psychotherapy site where people post in order to get free advice from unqualified people. If you suggest something to someone in a thread and they do not appear receptive, DO NOT follow them around the site injecting your view of their psychology at every opportunity.It is rude and inappropriate behavior , and I won't have it, so back off.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[Francesca]

Do as you wish, madame.

I suggest you read up on passive-aggressive behaviors.

[freedomlover]

I have been following this thread with great interest from the beginning, simply because Francesca's situation reminded me of of one of my great childhood wounds - never knowing who my father was. (Apparently his Mars just conjuncted my Mother's Venus. -winks_ good one, Francesca!) Nevertheless, it left a great wound in me that I'm 41 years trying to work out.

However, it is the last few posts that bring me to say a few words on this thread.

If you insist on anger, though, I can provide it. These two posts are not related-they concern two different people and two different sets of circumstances. I responded to your point in the other thread, and in a polite manner. But it seems polite does not work with you. So let me be absolutely clear: This is an astrology site, not a psychotherapy site where people post in order to get free advice from unqualified people. If you suggest something to someone in a thread and they do not appear receptive, DO NOT follow them around the site injecting your view of their psychology at every opportunity.It is rude and inappropriate behavior , and I won't have it, so back off.
I will make a few comments on this subject. I know you appreciate a straightforward approach, so I will try to be that. Here are my comments: Take 'em or leave 'em.

First of all, many on this site, Jagetoile and myself included, give out psychological take on things based on intuitive perceptions combined with astrological interpretations. Intuitive perceptions/Divine Guidance trumps psychology degrees. With all due respect, Francesca, I know your personal beliefs, as you have stated before on this site. But just because you don't believe in God/Divine Guidance does not mean it is not so. However, even though we are speaking from an intuitive hunch, we are flawed human beings who do not have the same connection with Divine Guidance/intuition that Jesus Christ did, so we usually speak with some taint to it. It is then your job, Francesca, to intuit what is taint and what is not - the same job we all have. From the feedback I have received and my own experience with Jagetoile and others' "psychological" perspective, I think it is a very valuable asset to this forum. None of us have claimed to be an expert or that anyone should take what we say without question. For that matter, just because someone holds a Degree in Psychology doesnt' mean you should accept what they say without question either, especially if their intuition is not involved.

I wasn't familiar with the other thread you quoted that Jagetoile responded to, but I went and found it and read it. Personally, I feel that Jagetoile was very close to the truth with what she said. Not entirely right perhaps, but she had some good food for thought that I feel would help you greatly, should you choose to take it under serious consideration.

You also said on the other thread you referred to that you had a great disrespect and hate of authority figures. Beneath of disrespect and hate is fear and anger.I could go into detail about this from my observations of you on this forum, but I am trying to not derail your thread with anything more than the already derailed sub-topic. (winks) (Sorry about your horary getting derailed, Francesca.)

Back on the subject of your quote I quoted above... Yes, I agree that it is rude for someone who is offering advice to repeatedly offer it if it has been plainly stated that the advice is not appreciated. Once is enough, otherwise it takes on the form of nagging and coercion. However, out of fairness to Jagetoile, you did not really state it plainly. You engaged in active conversation with her, and did drop a few subtle hints. But nowhere did you expressly imply that you did not want any more input from her. Now in the quoted paragraph above, you made it plain. Therefore from this point on, if Jagetoile were to continually give you her input, it would be rude and inappropriate behavior - but not before this remark.

One more remark that I am saying in the hopes that it might give you some relief, as I have had an almost identical experience. And I quote from your other thread:

Actually, the problem I confronted during my Saturn return was not anger, but fear of emotional intimacy and lack of trust in others. I rejected this young man for that reason, and wounded him deeply. He also had the same Sat./Pluto conjunction a few degrees from mine but opposed his moon. The potential for reopening intense wounds was activated. Since this spring, I have felt intense guilt and wanted to make him understand that it was a weakness in me, rather than him, that made me turn away. So, don't worry, the Saturn problem has been dealt with, believe me, and I am too old for much more "life drama" anyway.

When I read this, (and boy, do I know how you feel!), the thought occurred to me that maybe the anger involved here is anger at yourself for pushing him away. The internalized anger could be "in response" ( as you say) to the intense guilt, which is really a form of self-condemnation. Yeah, you ******* up, but maybe the answer is to just forgive yourself and give yourself an opportunity to create a new beginning? After all, you were "young and dumb", as I like to say about mistakes we all make in our youth. Hindsight's 20/20. Forgive yourself by realizing that if you had known then what you know now, you would have acted differently...... but you didn't. It took the road from then till now to learn this lesson.

Again, sorry for further derailing your horary thread, but I really felt I needed to say these things. I hope you take them with the genuine concern in which they were offered.

Best of luck to you in the new year!

[freedomlover]

To: Jagetoile (if you're still lurking in the shadows of the forum)

Please don't deprive the rest of us of your perspective because one person did not agree with you and took offense.

[Francesca]

Freedom, I can't believe that you would again apply a label to my feelings after I just told another amateur therapist to bugger off! What is the problem with you people? I clearly stated to Jag that I did not think the problem was anger, and YOU and SHE should take it or leave it. As I stated to her, anger is always a second feeling, it is a reaction to another feeling , and I was more interested in what might provoke the anger. If the two of you cannot allow me my own opinion, perhaps it is you who need to look at your emotional needs.

It is not my habit to get furious with a person who says something I don't like,especially when they are obviously trying to be helpful, so I was as gentle as I could be. The second, third or fourth time, however, I am not so inclined. Asking advice on an horary is not the same as giving strangers the OK to psychoanalyze one in public. Where in the world is your common sense? One of the first things that Liz Green or any other legitimate psychotherapist would tell you, is that you do not perform therapy on those who don't want it. Once again, this is an astrology forum, not a site on which people seek out therapy.

Not only is your/Jag's insistence upon rendering therapy rude and inappropriate, it is also dangerous. You could seriously upset, or frighten, or make despairing, an individual with weak defenses who takes your/her words too seriously. Thankfully, I have many years of experience in the field of mental health and am sophisticated enough to recognize inappropriate use of jargon and pop psychology. What about others who are more fragile?

I am really very angry at you for your hardheaded insistence that you are free to say anything you want about someone else's motives and emotional lives in a public forum, as long as it is dressed up with psychological gobbledegook that is poorly understood even by the person using it. You were not asked for this input and you shouldn't insist on giving it. You need to learn what Freud meant when he said that "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

Although I was annoyed with Jagetoile's behavior, I emailed Radu asking perhaps that someone soothe her wounded feelings, then I come back and find another overconfident amateur psychiatrist has taken her place! What does it take to get through your intransigence?

People should be able to post horaries on this site without feeling that by doing so, they are agreeing to having their most personal lives and feelings picked apart by ill informed people who know considerably less about the subject than they themselves do.

First I get Frisiangal lecturing me on my duties as a parent, then you two playacting shrinks. It's insufferable, really, and totally out of place. Once and for all, DO NOT PRESUME TO GIVE UNASKED FOR ADVICE IN AN AREA WHERE YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED. IF OTHERS ARE WILLING TO PUT UP WITH THIS,BE ADVISED THAT I AM NOT!

[freedomlover]

Francesca,

I see that you did not take my comments in the spirit of genuine concern in which I offered them. I am not an "overconfident amateur psychiatrist". I only offered my perceptions because sometimes a different perspecitive will shed some light on things. I hope one day you will see that I was only trying to help because I didn't want you to be in pain.

As to your assertion that I shoud not have commented on your private emotional life in a public forum, I have only this to say: I was just making comments on the things you revealed about your private emotional life in a public forum. Forgive me for assuming that it was open for discussion. Personally, if I didn't want to make the information open for discussion, I would not have posted it in a public forum. This was information you gave in your open conversing with Jagetoile about her perceptions, NOT the horary thread question itself. If you didn't want to discuss this with Jagetoile on an open forum, you should have made yourself clear from the get-go and said "Butt out" to her from the beginning. You DO have that right. But you did not do this and continued to open up your feelings and private life in response to her communications. Again, forgive me for entering into what seemed to be an open discussion. I was trying to help you and also to attempt to mediate and bring perspective to the dynamics between you and Jagetoile.

However, rest assured that you will hear no more of my perceptions unless you should ask. You have made yourself clear, and as I said .... for me to say anything more would be rude and inappropriate. You are certainly entitled to choose your own beliefs.

[Francesca]

You are right on one score: I should not have felt obliged to keep explaining things to people who have no right to comment on my private affairs. I did give out more information than I should have in a stupid attempt to show you that your observations were invalid and unwanted, and I shall not make that mistake again. From now on I will simply not respond to anything about my posts that is non-astrological.

I would like to point out one thing though, and that is that Draco was able to say that Terry would not be happy to hear from me, and I was not offended. Why, because he did so in the context of astrology and not in an embarassing intrusion into my feelings by people ill-equipped to asesss them. There was no presumption, no assumptions, no condescension and no disrespect. That makes his response valuable and helpful in a way which yours and Jagetoile's were not. Good night.

[Frisiangal]

Hi again, Francesca,

First I get Frisiangal lecturing me on my duties as a parent

The greatest problem with the written word is reading it in the context it was written. Forgive any psychological pun but I get the feeling that you read my words in an antagonistic manner towards your behaviour, rather than a simple questioning of its effects. Can asking questions be considered a lecture? I made no reference to any 'duties of a parent'. The thought never entered my mind, just the long-term effects upon the people involved.

I feel responsible for the turn this horary thread has taken, but the fact is that whenever any one asks a question based upon horary, they are, consciously or unconsciously, seeking advice regarding an answer. If horary works any way like general astrology interpretation, it only confirms what the person already knows inside themselves; they just want...or need.. to have it verified.

FOR THE HORARY SPECIALISTS:
Regarding the horary: I read on another forum that it is possible to obtain the history and the future from any horary question that goes further and deeper than the original query. Do the horary specialists who may be reading this have any comments? Would, for instance, the aspects in the horary chart of this thread relate to any outcome once the individual has been located?

F.

[Francesca]

Piffle. Draco already gave his opinion of outcome and it was not offensive to me. The fact that you persist in twisting my question to suit your view of the world is just too mind boggling for me. Therefore I retract the question.

[Draco]

Just for the record, I wanted to pop in and say, that the interpretation I offered was indeed fully confirmed.

Terry was indeed in his home town, where he and Fran used to live, despite this being unexpected and suprising to the querent. The town is twenty miles to the West of Fran's current location.

I would like to thank Francesca for being so considerate to remember this horary and to have PMed me with the feedback, as this is valuable to me. I do understand that with some horaries that it could take a long time for any answer to be confirmed one way or another, and it isn't always possible for people to return with confirmation soon, but often by time it does, people have forgotten all about their interpretations.

Fran on the other hand, kept this in mind, and was courteous enough to have informed me of the result, even after many months, about which of course I am very happy.

The deal is this: if people offer you interpretations on your horaries, please return the favour by remembering them and telling them what happens. Do not be the slightest bit embarrased either, to declare that your interpretation was incorrect. This is so much more valuable in fact, because there is nothing to be gained from a horary that you was correct about, as there is nothing to be learned from it, although it is satisfying. :)