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Rebel Uranian
09-04-2011, 02:35 AM
Having a natal Mercury in Capricorn in some random house with Saturn in the 3rd house or having a natal Mercury in domicile/exaltation but in a useless house for Mercury?

tsmall
09-04-2011, 02:54 AM
Having a natal Mercury in Capricorn in some random house with Saturn in the 3rd house or having a natal Mercury in domicile/exaltation but in a useless house for Mercury?

Can I please ask (because I am still very new to this and trying to understand) what house would be considered useless for Mercury? Especially if he is in domicile/exaltation? And to clarify, if Saturn is in either Gemini or Virgo (as the sign of the "random 3rd house") wouldn't that set Mercury up for mutual reception?

Rebel Uranian
09-04-2011, 02:58 AM
I don't know what house would be considered useless for Mercury. Maybe the 12th or the 8th or 2nd?

tsmall
09-04-2011, 03:36 AM
I don't know what house would be considered useless for Mercury. Maybe the 12th or the 8th or 2nd?

Looking at Ptolomy's table of essential dignities, if Mercury is between 6 and 12* Capricorn he is in his own terms. (+2 on Lilly's table.) If he is in his own sign or mutual reception with another planet by sign (say Saturn in either Virgo or Gemini) he gets +5. In exaltaion or mutual reception by exaltation is +4. If he is in 12th he gets -5 in accidental dignity, 8th is -2, and 2nd is +2...

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

But out of curiousity, why would Mercury be useless in 12th, 8th, or 2nd? Still learning...:smile:

dr. farr
09-04-2011, 04:38 AM
Having a natal Mercury in Capricorn in some random house with Saturn in the 3rd house or having a natal Mercury in domicile/exaltation but in a useless house for Mercury?

Just focusing in ONLY on this question as a theoretical matter, my choice as to "more beneficial" (in isolation, ie, in theory) would be Mercury in domicile/exaltation....

tsmall
09-04-2011, 04:50 AM
Just focusing in ONLY on this question as a theoretical matter, my choice as to "more beneficial" (in isolation, ie, in theory) would be Mercury in domicile/exaltation....

Yes, I see why. Thx, dr. farr.

JUPITERASC
09-04-2011, 11:16 PM
Can I please ask (because I am still very new to this and trying to understand) what house would be considered useless for Mercury? Especially if he is in domicile/exaltation? And to clarify, if Saturn is in either Gemini or Virgo (as the sign of the "random 3rd house") wouldn't that set Mercury up for mutual reception?

Saturn in Gemini and/or Virgo is in mutual reception with Mercury in Capricorn and/or Mercury in Aquarius

Regarding 'some useless house for Mercury' the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th are all Cadent houses
- From the Latin "to fall", the Cadent houses are those which "fall away" from the Angles, namely the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th houses. Traditionally these are interpreted as a weakening influence on the planets that tenant these houses. source: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/cadent.html :smile:

tsmall
09-04-2011, 11:34 PM
Regarding 'some useless house for Mercury' the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th are all Cadent houses
- From the Latin "to fall", the Cadent houses are those which "fall away" from the Angles, namely the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th houses. Traditionally these are interpreted as a weakening influence on the planets that tenant these houses. source: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/cadent.html :smile:

Weakened in 12th, but not useless? And so I understand clearly, is it possible that the loss of dignity from being in 12 can be offset by other positive dignity? For example, as 12th house placement is accidental negative dignity, if Mercury were also direct and swift in motion (positive accidental dignity?) And, as dr. farr suggested above, if Mercury were essentially dignified by being in his own sign?

JUPITERASC
09-05-2011, 12:31 AM
Weakened in 12th, but not useless? And so I understand clearly, is it possible that the loss of dignity from being in 12 can be offset by other positive dignity? For example, as 12th house placement is accidental negative dignity, if Mercury were also direct and swift in motion (positive accidental dignity?) And, as dr. farr suggested above, if Mercury were essentially dignified by being in his own sign?

Planets are weakened by being in the 12th but not necessarily useless. Traditional Horary Astrology has Lilly's Table To Examine The Strength & Debility of Each Planet (although we are advised by Deborah Houlding that overall it's important to understand that these tables exist as a guide to judgement, not a substitute for it. Ultimately common sense and a discretionary eye will replace the need to work with number-scores.
source: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

Nevertheless astrologers differ strongly, each adheres to a preferred method that works for that particular astrologer or groups of astrologers

In general astrologers of most schools agree that planets are basically strong on the angles i.e. ASC, DESC , MC and/or IC

Not all astrologers agree that planets are not as strong in the Succedent Houses 2nd, 5th, 8th and/or 11th

Not all astrologers agree that planets are weakest of all in the Cadent Houses 3rd, 6th, 9th, and/or 12th
It is a good idea to test, interpret and draw your own conclusions

Hellenistic Astrology (which in turn originated elsewhere although that is currently a hotly debated topic in astrological circles) uses Angularity, Succedency and Cadency for Houses

Each planet joys in a particular house, malefic Saturn for instance joys in the 12th while malefic Mars joys in the 6th - dr. farr has posted elsewhere on this forum useful information regarding the ways the joys of the planets have changed over time.

It is important to consider each planet, house, sign, sensitive point within the context of the whole, rather than in isolation :smile:

byjove
09-05-2011, 01:37 AM
The Moon has Joy in the 3rd. While the cadent houses are undisputed considered less active influences, I don't think it's all bad, or weak, and for any newer readers, know that Mars or Saturn in a cadent house can help contain destructive tendencies.

I would definitely go with domicile or exaltation too. (one thing about that, I see some astrologers refer to a planet only being exalted being certain degrees of a sign, and not the sign itself, though I have not read enough on that to support that.)

I thought I read that Mercury in Sagg/9th is uncomfortable, because the mental energy is splintered? I've Mercury in Pisces at the end of the 9th exactly on the MC, disposing Moon in 3rd of Virgo. Bad roll of the dice maybe.

JUPITERASC
09-05-2011, 02:08 AM
The Moon has Joy in the 3rd. While the cadent houses are undisputed considered less active influences, I don't think it's all bad, or weak, and for any newer readers, know that Mars or Saturn in a cadent house can help contain destructive tendencies.

I would definitely go with domicile or exaltation too. (one thing about that, I see some astrologers refer to a planet only being exalted being certain degrees of a sign, and not the sign itself, though I have not read enough on that to support that.)

I thought I read that Mercury in Sagg/9th is uncomfortable, because the mental energy is splintered? I've Mercury in Pisces at the end of the 9th exactly on the MC, disposing Moon in 3rd of Virgo. Bad roll of the dice maybe.

It is always a good idea to read the chart as a whole, rather than focussing on one single planet. Also do some research http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf so you can decide for yourself :smile: