Cannibalism?

[indigojenardu]

Just wondered, what are the signifiers for cannibalism in a natal chart?

A child I know keeps talking about eating people.

Just want to know if I should order Kentucky Fried Breasts and Legs in for dinner instead of cooking fish fingers ;)

Thanks.

Indigo

[Betelgeuse]

I think mythology can help us here. In greek mythology Cronos/Kronos had the nerve to eat his brothers, cause the prophecy said the one of them will down-grade and overcome him, like he did to his father Uranus.

Cronos is Saturn... so a really bad Saturn could be a planet of cannibalism. ( also there is the uranian Kronos that might help too. )

[indigojenardu]

Hi there,

What is an example of a bad Saturn? (sorry, new to this :-)

Indigo

[Betelgeuse]

I never had an example of cannibalism in any chart, Saturn would be the most apropiate for me, they could be more planets, like Neptune, and even Mars, Uranus and Pluto ... maybe south node, lilith, and priapus around too.

When I say bad I meant like: badly placed, bad aspects, bad dispositors, ruling certain negative cusps ( 8th, house of death for example, 12th house of subconcious or long diseases, 6th house of acute diseases, 4th house the house of inner fantasies... ) etc.

BUT... even the most badly placed planets I have seen, no one indicated cannibalism to be honest.

The result would be something to do whit a conjunction whit a certain fixed star like these for example:

Aldebaran 09gem47 Saturn
Dschubba 02sag34 Saturn

Here are some links whit some really bad conjunctions:

http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/DEATH1.html
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/DEATH2.html
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/GOODANDEVIL.html
http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/CRIME.html

[lilllybelle]

We could take a peek at Jefferey Dahlmer's chart to get an ideal of what a cannibalist chart might look like. L.

[lilllybelle]

I couldn't find J.D.'s chart, but I did find some interesting stuff on astrodatabank.com about serial killers. They said that a high percentage of serial killers have moon in sag, sun in gem, and neptune retrograde. Though the killer wouldn't necesarrialy have all of those placements in his or her chart. Moon in Scorpio only popped up 8% of the time with very few fixed moons showing up. They also commented on mercury being heavily placed in the charts. L.

[starlink]

Hi Lilllybelle & Indigo, I also tried to find something on J.D and found at least his date of birth: May 21 1960 in Milwaukee, Murdered on 28 November 1994 in Jail. Let's see if there are bad Saturn aspects.(maybe in connection with the Moon = Food???)

[starlink]

Well, will you believe it, HE HAS A MOON SQUARE SATURN:eek: so maybe there is something to it? Interesting is the fact that he has 4 planets dignified, Saturn in Cap., Mars in Aries and Venus in Taurus and ruler of the Sun Mercury in it's own sign, amazing. Then a bit of a nasty Sun-Mercury conjunction square to Pluto and Venus Square Uranus and an exact square between his Mars and Jupiter, extreme violence (cutting!).

[starlink]

Sorry, not an exact square between Mars and Jupiter (my eyes...) but nevertheless.....

[Betelgeuse]

Thanks Starlink and Lillybelle about J.D :) ... il try to give it a shot myself, to see if there is something about him.:D

Lot's of people in this world have these aspects. So there must be something more powerfull in his chart to show cannibalism.

I have taken your data's about him, but no birth hour so I use Null House System ( no house cusp ).

The most powerfull thing I had seen about the cannibalism disposition, is about the Sun conjuncting fixed star Alcyone.

Alcyone is a unfortunate star, having the influence according to Ptolemy as Moon-Mars, and can usualy give disgrace and evil tendicies if whit Sun, while Mars and Moon bieng badly placed. So it's best to check these planets.

Moon ( detriment in Aries ) squares Saturn... that's strong indicator of cannibalism ( because of Alcyone's influences too ). Mars conjuncts Algenib ( unfortunate, Mars-Mercury by Ptolemy) . Mars is in Aries conjuncting this star is to much fire and can lead to excess of violence. Mercury is quite evil too, cause Sun whit Alcyone is conjuncting Mercury also.


And as final I said in a earlier reply that the uranian Kronos can show cannibalism too... and HEY, here you are!! strangely Kronos has a tight conjunction whit the Sun, Alcyone and Mercury.

The four planets in dignity can show certain things... No matter how good or evil you are :0: ... these four makes it certainly more powerfull than usual.

Yeah... this guy is a cannibal alright! :p

[lilllybelle]

I wanted to mention one more thing about J.D.'s chart. Over on astrodatabank they gave some astrologers the charts of a few different famous people. The astrologers were able to pick out Madonna and Hugh Hefners's chart, but they were not able to pick out J.D.'s chart. Many of them commented that his chart was not what they expected of a serial killer/cannabilist. L.

[Shining Ray]

Here is Jeffrey Dahmers chart:

Look where his Mars in Aries is placed, in the 6th house of work/daily duties - Daily use of sharp instruments cutting heads/and other physical parts of the body. (all ruled by Aries) (Jupiter square exaggerates this placement.) Mars is also quincunx Pluto. Physical murder.

Venus in Taurus - rules the senses of taste and places to eat. In the 8th house - the dead. He likes to murder his food.

Dahmer was abused as a child himself, Neptune/Scorpio/1st house Venus/Taurus/8th

But of course other people will have these placements and not eat people. Dahmer is an evil soul manifesting the energy in this way perhaps.

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/9040/jeffreydahmersf2.png (http://imageshack.us)

[Draco]

Dahmer's natal data:

21st May 1960, 4.43pm, Milwaukee, Wisconsin (87-W-54 / 47-N-02).

Asc. Libra 21.11

I can't give you the sources but I have revised the internet time and again for this data, and this birth time consistently appears and I believe it must be correct. It obviously isn't a rounded off time, so I suspect it must be an accurate record from a birth certificate. In fact, Dahmer's birth certificate can be viewed online, but not close enough to see any recording of time.

Noel Tyl gives the time of 3.35pm for Dahmer, but I find this odd in light of several sources contradicting this and all stating the same time. I feel that this is a rectification in order to put Mars right upon the descendant, probably because the rectifier desires this to reflect violence toward others, but astrology can and does, speak with a much subtler tongue than this.

The 4.43pm time puts the Moon on the descendant, where I think it belongs.

This post took my interest as I have actually dragged this chart out to attempt interpreting it again. I will post forth with my findings, but in a separate thread, as I think this individual is so interesting that the nativity deserves a topic of it's own. There have been many occasions in the past I have looked at this chart, and then put it away again without writing anything down, but my interest has piqued lately (my Sun is conjoined exactly with Dahmers NN, and this is stimulated by the transitting SN). I see a lot of interesting things in this chart reflecting upon who he was and what he did.

About cannabilism in nativities: I'm not actually sure this is a good, clear thing to look for in a natal chart. For example, Dahmer was a cannibal as a by-product of his necrophilia which in turn came about as a result of his killing. His primary motivation was not to go out and seek a victim to eat, but to seek a cadaver to play with, so it is this tendancy that should be looked for first. His motivation was not cannibalism, but, as with nearly every serial killer, his primary stimulus was sexual excitement. He ate parts of his victims bodies because he might as well have done, and you begin to run out storage space for corpses in a very small apartment, and if you're demented enough to kill people for sexual kicks, then you might as well save on the shopping bill.

Dahmer's image as a cannibal has also been sensationalised by the media over the fact that he was a necrophile and his motivation was sexual and not gastronomical.

Another important point to make is that the tendancy to anthropophagy resides in all of us. If you put us all in a room and starved us, it wouldn't be long before some would begin to feed upon other's in desperation. The vast majority of reported cases of cannibalism occur in circumstances of extreme hunger, and usually, when the victim is already deceased. In a case such as this, we aren't looking for what makes the ravenous native a cannibal, but rather, what is reflected in the nativity that would outline the probability of circumstances arising in which cannabilism might prove to be necessary. The same can be said with Dahmer's chart, cannibalism is the wrong thing to look for, what needs to be explored is the potential for the circumstances to arise in which cannibalism is likely to occur and why this might be.

In short, the question is not, what made Dahmer eat the people he killed, but what influences outlined the potential motivation to kill in the first place, because had he not been a killer, it is very doubtful he would ever have been a cannibal.

I'll take this to a new thread.

[SolarSiren]

Wow this is a hard topic to figure out....I mean, how many of us know anyone who is a cannibal? (Or admits it anyway lol)


Is cannibalism only the desire to eat other human's body/skin just to be cruel?

Some people really like eating the skin around their nails & toes, but not so much as to hurt themselves, or bite their lips/inside cheeks till they bleed...and I think everyone gets some weird pleasure from peeling skin off after a bad sunburn. LoL
I saw a documentary about modern day "Vampires", they paid donors for disease free blood so they could drink it at parties.

Would those be more a habit to calm nerves during stress?
Or OCD? Maybe lack of iron? :confused:

[Draco]

Dahmer was abused as a child himself

He was not. One of the most puzzling things about Damher is that he had an idyllic upbringing in a loving family, and never experienced any abuse.

The general profile of the serial killer usually identifies him as having suffered cruel and unusual abuses during childhood, but every killer always falls outside of the profile in some way, and in Dahmer's case, this is it.

[23]

Well his sexual pleasure out of eating flesh can clearly be seen by the 8th house cusp in Tau (the physical) and venus in tau in the 8th.

He was seen as certainly as an abberation by society, ura in 10th and obsessive-sexual - pluto in 11th

Also note that NN is in 12th - secrets, maybe also he was very analytical with his secrets. Covered them up well or something. But I think he was caught out be doing it too much - mars squ jupiter.

On rough calculations, I wonder if nep opposing his sun-moon midpoint has something to do with it as well. As well as a wide opposition between nep and venus-mars (7 degrees, too wide) and trine from pluto.

[Shining Ray]

I would definitely agree with draco that Mars should not be in the 7th house as this just makes for easy interpretation like draco said to interpret it as violence to others. The Mars is much more fitting in the 6th house as Aries is the sign related to butchers and having a double emphasis of this on his 6th house of his daily work fits the description, dahmer was a butcher only he butchered human beings.

The abuse I am sure I read he was abused by a boy when he was younger, but it was late last night and I read a couple of murder cases I will double check the information. But his chart to me does suggest he was abused as the ruler of his Childhood Venus is in Taurus in the 8th house. Neptune in the 1st (house of childhood) in Scorpio can be a possible representation of sexual boundaries crossed during childhood. Plus Mars quincunx Pluto.

On the cannibalism it would be difficult to see these tendencies in a chart I took a lighthearted interpretation at it with the double emphasis of Taurus/Venus in 8th as he liked the taste of the dead. But realistically it would be a hard thing to determine in a chart. I read the reason he liked to eat his victims was to feel close to them as he has the sexual possessive/love tendencies in his chart.

The Sun/Mercury in Gemini 8th square to Pluto in Virgo 11th house all quite mental energy possibly shows the morbidness of his mind and detachment also combined to the life force of his Sun energy.

The Moon in Aries 7th is an interesting placement as a sort of need to please energy which maybe relates to the mother or father but with the volatile emotions of Aries and with the coldness and seperation of Saturn squaring his Moon which could have left dahmer feeling cold and unfeeling himself as he may have felt this within his homelife.

[Frisiangal]

The original question was 'what are the significators for cannibalism?'

Can ONE chart....and a serial killer at that.. be taken as a norm ?, although I have read of a Japanese and a German who did the same but don't have their names or birth data.
There are other sides to this question.
In ancient tribal customs, eating the heart of your enemy was considered an honour and mark of respect towards him. It showed the enemy fought well and his courage would become part of the victor's spirit and make him stronger. Civilised (Saturn) behaviour has obviously outlawed this but I wonder if it may still go on in tribes to which 'civilisation' is an unknown word.

In the 1980's/90's a plane with a South American football team crashed in the mountains. Anyone remember it? In order to survive, the living eventually had to resort to sustain themselves upon the dead.

SolarSiren expressed my own sentiments that almost everybody tones a form of cannibalism within them through various acts towards their body, but I don't know if we'd be so keen to chew on someone else's nails, skin, or nose content.:(

I think that Saturn refers to the cadaver, so would be found to be of significance in any research of the subject.

F.

[starlink]

Yes, I remember about that planecrash, I think they even made a movie about it! I have looked a very long time at this chart and I get a very different feeling. I believe in what Draco says, I dont think he was abused in the sense we think. Look at the ruler of the 4th, early family environment, Saurn in a grand trine aspect to Venus (in 8, but in it's own sign, calm and dignified:D )and the Moonnode. Saturn is also very much in his element even though he makes a square to the Ascendant and the Moon, showing extreme introvertism, shyness. He was deeply emotional with his Sun, Mercury and ruler of the Ascendant in the 8th and I think that the abuse, if there was, did probably not come from within the family but from outside, friends. The 11th house ruler Sun in square to Pluto, could be showing this and Pluto as ruler of the 2nd his very low selfesteem as well. And because of that, it is very possible that he turned to violence in order to show power over others, the only way he could be "strong". There could have been homosexuality involved with Neptune trining it's own ruler Mars, reason why his victems were mainly boy and not girls. Perverse sexuality could be seen in the Venus in 8 square Uranus. 8th house issues often are about sexuality and life and death issues, as well as professions like being a surgeon and a butcher! I never heard about the 6th house being an indication of butchery...:confused: so probably that had to do with it. Why he turned to canibalism we probably will never know but I really think he turned crazy for whatever reason and could not restrain himself or it gave him such pleasure (being powerful in his own way)that he could not stop (grand trine), probably a combination of both. It is indeed worthwhile looking at this chart as something out of the ordinary. I am intrigued by it as so many others. I have some more ideas on the subject but must go now. S.;)

[Shining Ray]

Your probably right Starlink I looked up about the possible abuse on the net and it seems he did have sexual contact with another boy at a young age but it was possibly mutually consented. Although from the placements I guess you could interpret it as being exposed to sex at a young age whether through abuse or mutual consent we may never know this for certain.

The 6th house is the house of work and daily duties and it is because Mars/Aries is in this house that it relates to people who work as butchers. Mars rules sharp instruments and Mars/Aries rules the blood. I looked it all up in my Astrology Keywords folder and found the possible occupations for Aries which included being a butcher.

A really good interpretation on his chart Starlink it made a lot of sense.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[lilllybelle]

This seems like an obvious thing to point out, but I think there is quite a difference between someone who eats another human being because they are starving and someone who kills for whatever reasons J.D. killed.
The intent and the consequences of the actions are important. My little vegetarian butt would probally eat another human being if I was hungry and in a situation where I was going to die, if I didn't eat the dead body in front of me. I think that would be an understandable action to take. I would not invite someone to my house and kill them, have sex with their dead body and then eat them. Anybody want to come over for dinner? The big difference being that one causes great pain and torture. J.D. didn't just give them a friendly death, he tortured them a little bit first. He drugged one of them, and then took a power drill and drilled into the back of this 14 year old kids skull. He then poured acid into the hole in the hopes that he would make a zombie of the boy. He was also into the occult by the way. The kid got away. He found two black girls to help him. They called the police. I should mention the boy was asian and couldn't speak english. The police showed up but didn't belive the girls because of race and economic status. The little boy couldn't speak english to explain what was going on. (Reason #2 to learn english while living in America: you might be eaten by a serial killer if you don't learn english.) J.D. came out and said the boy was his lover and they had had a lover's quarell. The police gave the boy back to J.D., (got to listen to the white man in this country, you know) and J.D. did a little more torture, and then he killed him. I guess the boy didn't look 14, at least I dearly hope he didn't look 14 to the police. I guess the blood all over the boy wasn't a big deal to the police. Why didn't the police check any thing out? It's like a horror film. You get away from the creep, but the police don't believe you and return you to the crazy guy. O.K. I think that is different than eating someone out of necessity. People who have been in situations where they had to eat someone else have suffered from depression after surviving the situation and some have killed themselves out of guilt. L.

[Draco]

J.D. didn't just give them a friendly death, he tortured them a little bit first.

This isn't exactly true. Dahmer wasn't a sadist, he derived no satisfaction from the suffering, screaming, pain or pleading of his victims as many killers do. This would have broken his conscience and not allowed him to disassociate himself from what he was doing. For all the things he was, he wasn't a sadist.

The reason that he sedated the victims was because he didn't want them to know what his intentions were and didn't want them to experience pain, he would strangle them while unconcious. For a sadist, when the life has been extinguished and the screaming has stopped, so does the excitement, the person must be alive and suffereing in order to satisfy them, for Dahmer the opposite was true.

The victims that Dahmer experimented on by drilling holes into their skulls and pouring in muriatic acid will have been well sedated before this occured, and most of them died immediately afterwards, although apparently one did survive for a number of days, but with limited motor functions and in a vegetative state.

Konerak Simthasomphone was the boy who escaped into the street, in the small hours of 27th May 1991. The police were contacted by a black neighbour, Sandra Smith, to report that a boy was wandering naked in the streets.

As for the police believing that Konerak was nineteen, I just don't buy that, and to add to the catalogue of global police incompetence, I just don't think they cared. A fourteen year old, looking nineteen and especially being in the nude, the usual physical differences between a boy just into his teens and a man of nearly twenty should be obvious. It isn't usually difficult to be able to tell whether a person has just entered puberty or is coming to the end of it when they have their clothes on, let alone with them off. Not only that, but the police usually deal with mature adults, most of them men, so they would have known that Konerak was very young compared to most cases they dealt with on their shifts. Despite the boy being obviously dazed and incoherent, and despite protestations from Sandra Smith and her daughter, the police turned him back over to Dahmer, to his death.

The police involved were recorded making jokes and derogatory statements on their despatcher about having returned the boy to Dahmer. This lead to their dismissal, but amazingly, they appealed and were reinstated with back dated payment. They were even named Officer's of the Year for fighting for their jobs back, much to the eternal disgrace of the City of Milwaukee.

Anyway, about cannibalism, the latent potential is in us all.

If you had to eat a person, do you not have a specific idea in mind of the type of person you would like to eat? Is it not the the same type of person that you would feel most sexually attracted to?

[lilllybelle]

I think he drugged them because they would of whipped his tale if they hadn't been on drugs when he pulled out the knife or handcuffs. That was how he eventually got caught. One of the guys was able to punch him before he put the handcuffs on him. If he was concerned about their pain, he wouldn't of drilled holes into their head.
I wanted to add that part about the police, but I was concerned that my resource wasn't reliable. I also read that he molested the brother of K.S. If true, that has to be some intense family karma for two brothers in that family to fall in the hands of that man. I think if I had to eat someone in a survival situation, I would eat the person who died first, preferrably not a relative. To me the difference is like killing someone in self-defense vs. killing someone because you hate them. I guess we all have a killer/cannabilist in us, but the person who kills in self-defense has a totally different set of intentions than someone who kills for pleasure or money.

Quote"The reason that he sedated the victims was because he didn't want them to know what his intentions were and didn't want them to experience pain, he would strangle them while unconcious. For a sadist, when the life has been extinguished and the screaming has stopped, so does the excitement, the person must be alive and suffereing in order to satisfy them, for Dahmer the opposite was true."
He didn't kill all of them immediately, did he? He let the zombies stay alive for a bit. How do we know that he didn't enjoy it? He was into the occult, and he tryed to make zombies of them. Sounds like he was pursuing something that he was greatly interested in to me. I think we have all been angry enough at one point that we would of liked to smack someone with a baseball bat, but that doesn't make us killers. I still stand by my view that there is a huge difference in someone who eats another human for survival and being a J.D. I've tryed to imagine if I could of possibly done something like that, only if I lost all touch with being a human, only if I wasn't me, if I was someone else, someone without a brain or a soul, maybe. It makes me wonder if evil exist. Are there evil souls, or was he just crazy. Maybe crazy isn't the word. He just wasn't human. His soul couldn't of been human. Maybe he hadn't been a human too many times before. L.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[Shining Ray]

The ruler of his chart is Venus which rules his Ascendant. Venus is in Taurus Dignified and falls in the 8th house he is all consuming in his relationships (literally) Venus in Taurus falls quickly in lust and add to this the jealousy, obsessiveness and passionate possessiveness of this placement.

But Venus is square to Uranus I don't think he had a normal stable relationship with a man. The way he relates is shocking to others especially to society. There is a detachment to love/relationships and so he kills them and then has a relationship with the dead body. When he is finished he consumes the dead body apparently to feel close to his victims in his twisted logic.

The ruler of his 7th house is the Mars in Aries in the 6th house(what I call his butcher house) which is quincunx to Neptune/Pluto he had power over these men and drugged them to in order to control them and do what he wanted to do to them sexually. Mars square to Jupiter in fall in Capricorn 3rd excessive violence and mutilation Jupiter/Cap excessive aggressive control. He has a total lack of feeling for these poor victims possibly linked to Moon square Saturn and the detached feeling of Venus/Uranus and the mental morbid detachment of Sun/Mercury in Gemini 8th square to Pluto in 11th.

There is a yod formed - with Neptune/drugged in Scorpio/sex 1st/physical body Pluto death/murder in Virgo/controlled 11th/detachment -the yod pointing at Mars in Aries 6th house of his Butcher sexual tendencies. All these energies combined may have contributed to the killings.

This is how he may have approached his relationships/well victims. The cannibalism was a lustful morbid hunger. To consume the body and soul of these men.

[Shining Ray]

But of course there must be more to this than just his placements because as I have said before people will have similar placements and aspects in their chart and not be like him at all. So I guess it is just the evil soul behind his chart. Probably if you didn't know he was a killer/cannabilist and looked at his chart you would be able to tell his relationships were obsessive and he exerted his will in relationships. You could look at his mental capabilities and see he would have interest in the deeper occult like subjects. The emotions are blocked when relating to others and quite angry emotions. You might be able to guess his military career by his Mars/Aries in 6th. The Sun in 8th square Pluto shows an obsessive domineering brutal man.

It does make me wonder how stable was his background (and I don't blame the parents because a lot of people are abused or neglected and couldn't hurt a soul on this planet.) But if the Moon represents the Mother in the chart and it is in Aries square to Saturn. She might not have been affectionate and may have been depressed and anxious. The Sun in 8th conjunct Mercury square to Pluto what does this say about the father he was a powerful influence on Jeffrey Dahmer. But Saturn is retrograde and apparently he worked all the time and didn't really want to be at home and probably left all the responsibility to the Mother. So home issues I think were there. Although reports will say he had a stable home life how would you really know what went on behind closed doors.

[lilllybelle]

Jagetoile, I used the word whatever in reference to J.D. killing himself because I don't want to make any assumptions about why he killed people. I don't know why he did the things he did, so that is why I used the choice of words that I did. I didn't want to try to give an explanation for why J.D. killed people, so I thought it best to leave it in the air and not give my two cents on that one. Perhaps I should of said "for whatever reason unbeknownst to me."
It was logical of you to think that I was responding to your thread, seeing as how I posted after you posted. I was actually concerned that you would think that, but I thought that you would be able to tell that I wasn't replying to your post. I wasn't responding or commenting on anything you said. I was sharing some ideas that had been floating in my head since this thread got started up. I hope that clears things up. L.

[starlink]

I am in complete accordance with Draco and Jag (as you can also see from a former thread I wrote). I cannot feel that hate others feel towards this man because I feel/see this tremendous loneliness, his wanting to be in a relationship (Libra) and not being able to get it and probably being ridiculed and/or mistreated by the few friends he had. It is a mystery to everyone why he did what he did. I came upon an article about Lilith dealing with these issues actually (the dark demon on the surge for a male or a child to devour). It is a french essay by the Belgium astrologer Georges Antares. I never really used Lilith but in connection with these sort of things it is interesting to see what it does in a chart. This article also states that Lilith in your horoscope is actually working out badly ONLY if the Mars, Venus or Neptune of another person are on the same longitude as your Lilith and make bad aspects with her. Otherwise the negative workings of Lilith are sometimes even unnoticed. So in other words, we should actually look at his victims charts and see if their Lilith is in the same place as J.D.'s lilith and what sort of aspects it makes. I dont know where Dalmers Lilith is placed, could not see it in the chart here in the forum, will run one myself. Maybe this is a far shot, but nevertheless interesting to look into. No idea how we could get to the charts of at least some of his victims. Any ideas/opinions? S.

[Shining Ray]

I would have to say that what Jeffrey Dahmer has done is pretty repulsive personally, imagine if he did what he did to one of your family members. I don't know if I would be so forgiving and feel sorry for him. I am not disrespecting anyone's opinion this is just my view. Lots of people have had even worse childhoods than him has but haven't gone on to hurt other people.

But I suppose we don't have all the answers to why someone can turn so evil and murder people. And who knows what karma the victims may have.

I was reading an astrology article last night on a study of murderers birth charts (I will find the link and post it) and the victims of murder have pretty similar charts to the murderer. This is why it does make you wonder about the karma of such violence. But it was an interesting article and it tried to give a few pointers to what to look for in a Murderers chart but still I feel not substantial enough. What if I posted two charts one of a murderer and one of the murder victim would we be able to choose which chart is which if they are supposed to be very alike.

[Shining Ray]

Here is the link for the article, Finding criminal impulses in the astrological chart.

http://marlenesniche.tripod.com/metaphysics/id41.html

[starlink]

Hello Shiny! Yes, you are right, of course it is very repulsive and turns my stomach too. I am condemning this behavior just as much as you and others do, and would feel totally destroyed if it were one of my own family, no doubt about that. The thing I have with this and other murderers is, that I always think "they were not born evil, they became evil through circumstances". So I then try to look at how the person could have been and it is there that I see the yearning and what not. I always seem to do that, God knows why. My ex husband has been so horrible with me in the last 4 years before our divorce and when he already had another woman, saying things like: What does it matter if I should have a baby with another woman and other very unfeeling remarks (like when I lost 12 kilo's in 3 month time, he would say:"look what good a bit of stress does to you!",) totally not understanding what I went through. He just wanted me to be perfect looking and I was just about 3 kilo's more than I was when I was 30. And this is just a very small thing. Everybody who heard him (also in public he made nasty remarks) would be disgusted. I totally forgave him (NObody understands, not even his own family) because I can only see that very lonely hurt child in him that lashes out because he cannot get a grip on his own life. I guess it is good for me that I do not harbour hate feelings. I believe in Karma and that we just go through this period in life to either finish or come to terms with past life issues. Even though I am very Taurus-Scorpio, signs that hold onto everything, I learned to let go of things and guess what: it comes all back to me. My ex now admires me, he even told me so, calls me often and his wife is totally jealous of me.....(littlebit of revenge from my side which I should not have either!). Coming back to finding criminal impulses in charts, I really like that and will have a look at that link. Thanks for looking it up. I still dont know how to put links from the internet into a post, nor how to put a chart in there. How do you do that?

[jagetoile]

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[lilllybelle]

If J.D. had certain synastry aspects that popped up again and again with the people he killed, those aspects might be clues as to what part of his chart represented the wounded parts of him. For example, if his venus conjuncted or opposed the venus or mars of most of his victims, we might be able to conclude that it was his venus that was afflicted.
Was he ever diagnosed with a mental illness? Do you think he might of been possessed by demons? If he was a tiger, his behavior would of been acceptable. Maybe he was an animal in past lives.
Maybe his soul had never walked the earthly plane before and he came from a place similar to hell, or maybe he was just a human suffering from a mental illness. Just speculating, L.

[Shining Ray]

Hi Starlink

I have been exactly the same as you in relationships, and I let an ex partner totally humiliate me. All I could see was the potential of the person, I used to focus all my attention on helping him with his problems. I felt sorry for my partner and I wanted to take all his pain away. He was like a wounded soul and he needed me to be there for him, it used to get really bad sometimes and I would have enough of him and leave. But then he would be all depressed and suicidal if I never came back. Then I would feel the guilty one and take him back and believe all the promises that he made about changing. He would say he would behave like this to me because he was scared of losing me and he loved me too much. Well I need to be needed and loved because I didn't love myself, So I fell for it time and time and again.

It seems like you went through a real tough time with your ex husband and his cruel attacks on you just shows how much he hates himself. There is no excuse for his behavior, but there could have been something Karmic between you two that you had to go through this relationship and experiance it.

I am glad you have moved on with your life. You do learn some big lessons in relationships all your best and worst charecteristics always seem to come out. And once when you were probably jealous of this other woman she is now jealous of you. I would thank her for taking him off you he probably abuses her the way he abused you. After a break up you always seem to remember all the good times and then want to get back with them. But when I wanted to break up for the last time with my partner, I made sure I would only remember how cruel he was. But I am not blameless in the relationship I enabled his behavior. Be glad your out of the relationship, and get whole within yourself. You were wounded too by being with him and you need to heal. And don't feel guilty about being glad that the girlfriend is jealous of you. The best revenge is to move on with your life and be happy. :)

I will try and give the instuctions as best I can on how to put links up and your chart. I will get the link for the free hosting chart service and post it with instructions.

[Shining Ray]

How to post your chart:

Step 1: Go to astrodienest, and get your chart made. Link Below

http://www.astro.com/cgi/awd.cgi?cid=w0jfilew0vkWz-u1148408601&act=sellog

Step 2: Once you have your chart, right click on your chart and on the menu click “save picture as”

Type what file name you want like starlinks chart. And press save.

Step 3: Go to this site below for imageshack which will upload your chart to so that you can put it on to the forum.

http://www.imageshack.us/

Step 4: Register with them. I think all you have to do is give your email address. (I can’t remember now)

Step 5: When your ready to upload your chart - Click on browse and a screen pops up with all the pictures you have saved . type in the empty white bar starlinks chart. gif (but usually after the first couple of letters the title pops up and you can click on the file name you want.)

Step 6: Once you have the picture/chart you want click on open . Then once you have done this click on host it on the main screen and your picture/chart will load.

Step 7: get your word pad ready because you will need to paste the link to your word pad. When your word pad pops up press the box at the bottom of your screen which says word pad (or untitled document) and it will take the word pad off the screen for now while you get your chart.

Step 8: Once loaded different file names pop up for different types of charts. If you want a little chart click on Thumbnails for forums and for a full sized chart click on hotlink for forums.

Step 9: Paste: Hold down your mouse on the link you want and drag it to your word pad. Your word pad should be in a little box at the bottom of the screen just drag the link to the box and the word pad opens to a large size and let go of the mouse and your link should appear on screen.

Step 10: When you want to put your chart up in reply to a new topic/thread . Get your word pad, reduce it to minimum size and use the arrows so you can see your link. Go to edit on your word pad and press Select all then as you did before paste the link to the blank reply on your screen, and hopefully when you press preview post you should see your chart.

It is so hard giving instructions (you might not have understood this, there is an explanation of how to do this on the forum somewhere which might explain it clearer. This is how I do it, I will probably get laughed at as I bet there is simpler way to do it. :o )

[jagetoile]

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[starlink]

Dear Shiny! Thank you sooooo much for all that effort to explain that uploading. If you see funny things happening in the threads I post than it could be me trying things out:D !! Also, very nice of you to answer me. Yes, those men.... And indeed, some friends of us, whom he visited with this new (now) wife, tell me that he treats her just like that. My new (totally lovely) partner and I do see him and his wife occasionally and when she says something he looks at me and:rolleyes: and says : "there she goes again" (she does not speak Dutch). And then I look at her and think, poor girl, thank God I dont have to deal with all this anymore. He is much better as a friend really. I can't tell you how happy I am with my new life and thank Pluto for transiting my Ascendant at the time to have gotten the courage to leave him.

[starlink]

OK Shiny, I got into imageshack, saw the chart (I just took a horary chart) and the forum links etc. but than you wrote: "get your word pad". So here my brain tried to figure out how to get to that wordpad (I suppose it is the place where you write your threads in?) without going away from that imageshack page. I am usually quite OK with these computer things, but honestly, this one:confused: Maybe it is sooo easy that I just overlook it. Sorry to bother you with this again, but I so much would like to learn how to do it. There is an explanation in the forum on how to do all this but I also did not understand the last part of it., Will have another look at it. Thanks for your help! Starlink

[starlink]

SHINY! I did it!!! In the horary section I managed to get an image in, oh wauw!! Thanks sooooo much. I just did not think of the copy and paste possibility, I just focussed on where to drag and drop and there was no pad to drag it to. This works fine. Next try will be an Atavar, see what happens there;)

[jagetoile]

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[Shining Ray]

Glad you did it starlink :D I was so happy myself when I figured it out. I couldn't put my chart up for ages. For the word pad, I press start on my computer and go to my Microsoft works word processor and it pops up on screen and then your ready to paste what you want on the pad. Once you learn how to paste (which I didn't know how to do for a while you are just pasting the link onto your word pad). But you have learnt how to do it anyway, and once you do it a couple of times it is so easy to do.:D

Jag when you want to erase information on your chart, I go to search on my computer and search for my chart under search pictures on my computer and type the file name I want.

When the image comes up I click on the chart image, and then go to the top of the screen click on file and then click on edit. Your picture/chart should appear with paint/eraser/circles and all the stuff you can alter your chart with.

Just click on the eraser and use it to delete the details you want. If you want to highlight an aspect in a chart you can use the circle to circle round a placement and use other tools to highlight whatever you want in the chart. When your finished save your new edited chart.

Hope this helps, just spend time practicing it and you will soon get the hang of it. Maybe there is another way to do it but this is how I do it.

[starlink]

Gee whizz Shiny, you ARE good at this stuff. Thanks also for the instructions you gave to Jag, they serve all of us, super!:)

[jagetoile]

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