Sadomasochistic

[Shining Ray]

deleted post

[Francesca]

I followed everything til the part about God being an evolving force seeking to perfect itself. This doesn't make any sense to me in terms of God being God being less than perfect. You're saying then, there is no perfect, or no God. Am I reading this right?

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[Brooklyn Dave]

Oh Boy an extremely interesting article. When one mentions SM, many folks will immediately think of some kinky folks acting out some sort of painful sexual roleplay in a dungeon. The psychological rather than the explicit sexual manifestations are much more interesting. I do have some of those astrological configurations such as an emphasized 12th house, and the nodes NN (12th) & SN (6th). As far as the Pisces/Virgo thing goes, I have Pluto retro in Virgo (10th) and no planets in Pisces (5th house cusp). I think what has prevented me from delving into a more activated SM mindset is all the air and Aquarius in my chart. I do have the tendencies and have engaged slightly in some sexual behavior that involved some SM. Most of it is between the ears and in certain attitudes (as the article aptly describes).
One thing I find interesting is that I find masochistic personalities (especially in men) very hard to deal with. The Mars/Pluto and Mars/Saturn comments I have heard before especially the Mars/Pluto aspects having a lot to do with cruelty. Actually my Mars/Pluto are trine and my Mars/ Saturn although no aspect, are in the same house (2h)--so a lot of issues about the material world.

[VenusInAries]

I have those books by JWG, and understand and see within myself those S&M traits in the psyche of my relaitonships. But I will say I did my own research on the sexual arena of S&M I thought for sure I would find heavy scorpio or pluto even pisces in there. I went to several of the S&M clubs that we have here around the state and people were kind enough to give me their birth info. When they were so easy going about giving me their birth info I was skeptical about scorpio I was expecting some resistance lol, but I was shocked to discover 95% of the charts had very heavy aquarius. I did not take that energy to be the sadistic type or masochistic type. I can understand maybe the Aquarian energy thinking it's doing something new and different and a bit taboo but I truly didn't expect to find it there as I did. So I just thought I would share what I found out through my own work.

[23]

This is interesting and somehow I'm not really surprised that virgo (guilt) and pisces (sacrifice) are involved. As mentioned, it might be a mars-pluto thing but I can't help but feel that sco might have something to do with it. My mum is very self-sacrificing to the point of detriment at times but then again, she makes me feel guilty about it - I'm an Aqu (maybe this might satisfy Venus in Aries' theory). Maybe my mum is really the sadist...

[23]

But then, Aqu is to do with "we" and the sun is detriment (as opposing to the self-focusing "me" leo), so we have a weak ego as such. This might have something to do with self-worth, hence abuse.

[Brooklyn Dave]

In my day to day mundane contacts with people I prefer breezy pleasant contacts. I do not tolerate head games, and I try not to particpate in them (not so much out of conscious principle but that it takes to much energy). The Scorpio stuff comes out in being on the defensive against those who I deem too eccentric for my liking. I have an antenna for weirdos & crazies. Without going into too much sexual detail I kind of like to be dominated but w/o the pain and the head games.

[Brooklyn Dave]

The ego is always interesting. In many ways I do have a weak ego, but I can't say I have been the recipient of abuse (except self abuse). also have Moon in Libra (12th), and I feel I do have a good pulse on what the public vibe is----the people pleasing is so-so (not extreme)--lots of passive aggression in the form of evading and avoiding.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[Belgianmoonguy]

I have Moon in Virgo and a Pisces DC (&8th house cusp in Placidus)

Although i feel guilt a lot about stuff i have done, i'm not so attracted to SM... I mean, it's not love at all... It seems to be about punishing, in my eyes
And to associate sex with punishment, is not so ... fun
I mean, i experimented with handcoughs once, and i thought it was fun...But i wouldn't go further...

And indeed, I expected more that Scorpio would have to do something with it

[She]

I've found interest in this particular chart, mostly because of the heavy amount of Plutonian placements ~ Does anyone have any thoughts on the potentials of this individual? -From the negative and destructive to the positive and growth-oriented aspects. This is a guy who recently invited me to visit Europe with him, I have told him I have obligations here over the next few months but I am contemplating going with him. He is the kind of guy I'd fall completely head over heels for, but his chart is simply put -- very extreme as I see it.

[wilsontc]

Ray,

You said:
My ex - is the more sadistic personality...

I missed this discussion! My late two cents:
Your ex's planets are almost entirely stressed by other planets. Mercury (thinking/daily work) and Pluto (transformation, also power) are least aspected, indicating he can't "connect in" with his communication or power. So he OVERdoes. This could lead to violence, particularly the Pluto issue.

Powerfully,

Tim

[Atria]

hello She, at first sight only , I think i need more time to study this chart, but at first sight I think tha he has many affective conflicts the fifth house has three malefics planets and the moon is in scorpio she is not in a good sign for her, indicates traumas in the sense of his determinations, and that stellium at fifth are squaring the sun at eight house indicates troubles at sex and health

[She]

hello She, at first sight only , I think i need more time to study this chart, but at first sight I think tha he has many affective conflicts the fifth house has three malefics planets and the moon is in scorpio she is not in a good sign for her, indicates traumas in the sense of his determinations, and that stellium at fifth are squaring the sun at eight house indicates troubles at sex and health

Interesting points ~ I would not have suspected health issues! But With Venus at house 6 cusping 7 in conjunction to juputer, neptune, sextiling the planets in 5 in square to 8 this might blow his relational issues into a sort of grand proportion. He's very charismatic; He could surely charm the sock off a snake and then some.

He is already 23 and has not had any real desire to improve his life or lift himself of the anchors in his life, he seems very lonely and he likes to keep it that way. I really hardly know him, he's moreso just a friend of a friend.

He would commonly sleepwalk as a small boy, and his mother would wake him by shaking him back into consciousness. I'm not sure about what other sort of abuse went on between them but apparently she wasn't a very gentile nurturer. Maybe Uranus opposing the Node and Chiron would point to his sleepwalk/waking tendancies... He thoroughly enjoys and entertains ideas of power or status abuse, it's so sad, I would hate for anyone to imprison themselves for a lifetime as it seems he will choose to do.

Might he be a potentially dangerous person? Or is he just more likely to be subjected to a lot of stress in his own life? I know the guy has a temper, but, is there anything in this chart which shows a tendancy to extreme violence? :confused:

[wilsontc]

She,

You asked:
Might he be a potentially dangerous person?...the guy has a temper, but, is there anything in this chart which shows a tendancy to extreme violence?

Yes.

This person has Scorpio (transformation, also control, power) modifying Pluto (transformation, also control, power) conjunct Mars (being, also anger) conjunct Moon (home, also emotions) conjunct Saturn (duty, also restriction) focused in the 5th house (self-expression, also ego) square (energy needs to be combined with) Sun (self-expression, also ego) focused in the 8th house. Perhaps whenever he gets angry he feels the urge to take control with angry power, or whenever he gets angry he takes control and gets emotional, or whenever he feels his ego is hurt he acts out violently and powerfully, or if he gets frustrated he makes his ego feel better by becoming powerfully angry, etc. Until you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN this person has learned how to handle his powerful energy (and not play dangerous "power games" with others, this is someone you should watch for QUITE awhile before getting too close).

From a distance,

Tim

[Looking to Jupiter]

Wow! great post Shining Ray. I am surprised I have only found it now.
I was actually reading just yesterday,(where, I dont know, I will have to go back and take a look at yesterdays history), that the two terms sadism and masochism, can be signified by Saturn and Jupiter, respectively.
I must go find where I read this, but it does make some sense to someone with these two planets in aspect in there natal.
I will be back.


Edit: for the life of me, I cant find where I read this yesterday. Has anyone else ever heard this connection with Saturn and Jupiter?

[flea]

Hi Shining Ray

Your comments about your venus sq pluto made me think too. I have sun square pluto/uranus opposite chiron. Funny at the moment I can tink of one firend who is a year younger, but my friends are a lot older or a lot younger. You may have my answer.

I have stuff in virgo/pisces and 12th/6th, and I can see that I have lived through a lot of power issues. Mars trine pluto/uranus thankfully. NN in 12th. There were powers issues in my relationship (he was a sun/sat/merc pisces with mars close to pluto/uranus in virgo), not obvious to me living through it, maybe due to an authorative upbringing . I was not used to having power, self power was not encouraged, and life philosophy was something given to you rather than developed from self. Kinda leads you open to those who have developed an ability or comfort with having power over others. Aries/Libra are intercepted so another sign of being out of balance regarding power issues, self and the other.

I have a persepctive that tells me the dominance submission is in action until the players realise what the game is they are playing, then it falls apart as the lesson has been learnt.

The aquarius thing is where dominance submission is being played out in a totally concious way. Aquarius has a tendency to detach from emotion which would enable SM to be played as a game in public. The aim is group entertainment.

Love Light Flea

[flea]

hmmm neptune and saturn you have got me thinking,

I have the trine, but very wide 9deg. It does hold true for me that saturn and neptune played a big part in the relationship story. I have satrun in neptunes home and so did he. Neptune was in Mars' home. A struggle begins to play tou already and I haven't started yet...
SM is very common in life but some have more learnings in that arena than other i think. I dont see it as purely sexual. The need for absolution from sin guilt pain etc can be very deep, especially if you consider past lives. Shame and the sense of undeserving is deep rooted into our psyche. The wonderful thing about these times is we shime the light on this deep dark past and transmute the ernergy. My Saturn is strong in the 10th and Neptune has postive aspects to just about everything in my chart. My Dad has Neptune in Virgo on the ascendant...

" a lot of my relating patterns have been broken"

I can relate to this very much, I feel like I am really starting to understand my natal story as it applies to my life, and finding a way to reform those parts that need reforming. With Uranus opp Uranus do I have any choice at the moment???lol

You have given me much food for thought which might just lead to some insight....thx

Love Light Flea

[flea]

SR,

yes I have read that saturn in aspect to neptune is artistic in that saturn helps to give form to the nebulous neptune. How this related to Sm type phsychological traits I am not sure. I have a couple of new people in my life that have their sun on my saturn, strangely they seem very positive relationships, though I am the older person.

Love Light Flea

[memento mori]

every time Ray writes an article i end up questioning my self thoroughly. :D Excellent work Ray!

Out of the indicators, I've got Aries/Libra AC/DC , Pluto conjunct Venus [which makes me wonder is that harder to handle then the square? :confused:] , next thing huge 6th, 12th house in Virgo/Pisces with Nnode in 12th, and to make this whole thing more interesting there's Neptune conjunct Saturn both squaring mars.


as for myself, I can be a masochistic in way that I push my limits. Especially when it comes to competitions. I've gone through a mildly self destructive phase and made it out stronger.

as far as relationships go from my, somewhat limited, expirience I've been carefull not to fall into those kind of patterns.. :o but makes me wonder, is it a lesson i must go through? especially with this amount of indicators...

[memento mori]

I post these articles to drive you mad with all your self questioning Memento, you can come and join me in the insane asylum, I am feeling a bit lonely :D . I knew it :D !

I have experienced it with my Venus/Pluto. Control, power, and abuse where all themes in my love life. And add my Pisces on the 7th cusp with Moon in Pisces 7th square Neptune in 4th. I had Neptune and Pluto in my relating style. that's really intense. and confusing i imagine.



I have looked at a couple of examples of celebrities with Venus/Pluto in their charts like Britney Spears, Dr Phil, and I think Kurt Cobain had it. there's something that scares me more then those jack the ripper victims. I went astrotheming and found Avril Lavigne with venus pluto conjunction in scorpio. Now that is way more comforting :p. Kurt Cobaine made me wonder could this aspect be also related to partners with substance abuse issues.


My partner has the Venus/Pluto conjunction in Libra/10th house in his chart. Pluto is about Power, the need to have power and control can come into relationships with these aspects. My partner can be intense at times, and a bit obsessed with me, but overall we haven't had the extreme patterns of relating that we both used to have in other relationships, but none of my relationships end peacefully, there is usually hatred at the end. And a need to kill one another but maybe that's just me :D .
im pretty sure that opsessing thing is it :D. thank god i rationalise good. otherwise id be a trainwreck waiting to happen. intense is fun. it's one thing i really like about my venus [mine's opposed by jupiter rx so i dunno how that plays out]. :D dont think the hatred thing is just u. that's how it is when the feelings are strong, which id take any day over the "relaxed attraction".


Also with your Venus/Pluto you have it in the 7th house, you will experience Pluto through relationships strongly. The placement is really good for learning your psychology. You express your energy through Plutonian outlets. I wonder how I can express my 5th house Venus in Capricorn square Pluto in 2nd Libra. I was thinking of a business which involved the arts, creative work which would be a good outlet for me. It might help me not to fall into relationships which have all the negative Plutonian themes, I will think of more things I can do to release my intensity. Rather than let it simmer which is what I usually do. venus in capricorn is really a placement thats somewhat unorthodox. hv u tried sculpting? my mind went straight to rock or earth after hearing cappy. i may be totally off:rolleyes:. i focus my venus on my psych :D being in love borderline opsessed was so NOT fun :D. for me, writing was also a great release. but its extremly time consuming :(