View Full Version : Poisoned spy - Litvinenko
11-26-2006, 08:18 PM
This is not my area at all although I have a basic understanding of the rules of horary. I hope I am posing the question correctly for this forum thread.
My question is. Was Litvinenko posioned in Itsu sushi bar? (as opposed to the Millennium Hotel etc)
The chart is set for 26 Nov, 21.01 GMT London Regiomontanus and has ASC 11 Leo Moon 16.36 Aq and Sun in 4th
I assume he is the Sun in Sag and is separated from sag ruler Jupiter by 4 degrees. He died 4 days ago. He was posioned on 1 Nov 2006, that's when Mercury was at the position Mars is now at in this chart. The 4th relates to food etc but also hotels?? Moon in 7th, in sign of Saturn which squares this point from 1st. Anyway I would love to hear the assessment of you horary practitioners
To ask who killed Litvinenko I feel is too broad a question as, if it was the Russian Secret Service the order may not neccessarily have come from Putin. If this reveals where he was administered the poison, it must have been connected with the guy he met there. Some people even speculate he could have done it to himself ??? - not my view.
11-26-2006, 08:42 PM
I'm so glad someone has asked about this Katherine. I have thought about these questions myself, but I never actually cast a chart.
I assume he is the Sun in Sag and is separated from sag ruler Jupiter by 4 degrees. He died 4 days ago. He was posioned on 1 Nov 2006, that's when Mercury was at the position Mars is now at in this chart.
Some nice observations by the way.
The 4th relates to food etc but also hotels??
A person's food/drink is the second. Bars/hotels are places of leisure, so take the fifth - which makes it a little more challenging to distinguish between the sushi bar and the hotel, but there will be a way.
To ask who killed Litvinenko I feel is too broad a question as, if it was the Russian Secret Service the order may not neccessarily have come from Putin.
It may be possible to determine the answer to this from the chart. I feel like getting stuck into this but I'm trying to work a horary out already.
I'll get back to you on this most interesting question.
Astrology aside - radiation has been detected at the sushi bar - does this mean that other people will have been exposed to this intoxicant and will their health be at risk? How can the person who administered the poison have done so without risk of harm to their own self?
11-26-2006, 11:08 PM
Does anyone have the official time of death or accurate natal data for him?
His death comes on the heels of some very powerful activation of the Saturn/Neptune opposition, namely MA=SA/NE, SU/ME=SA/NE and thereby MA=SU/ME.
11-27-2006, 08:31 AM
Unukalkhai and Futurist,
I had provided the event chart for Litvinenko's death in this thread, but then I realised that it belongs in the events charts section.
Livinenko's Mortal Chart (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=25708#post25708)
Really I ought to know better, as I've been moving people's posts about and popping them in the recycle bin for being inappropriately placed. :(
I added a link to the BBC News site on your post so that there is all the necessary background information relevant to the horary available to anyone who is not totally clear about this case. I hope you don't mind.
relevant to this topic (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=25707#post25707)
Futurist, here is your horary chart:
11-27-2006, 09:31 AM
Hang on a minute while I find my brian and bounce it off the walls to bring it back to life! :o I entered the wrong time into that horary data, the question was 21.01 not 21.21, that was the time that he died, but as I have just done that chart, I entered the wrong data. You can't seem to delete charts once they have been posted anymore, which makes a mess of the thread and is very annoying but, oh well, here goes again:
The correct horary chart:
Phew! Got there eventually! :rolleyes:
11-27-2006, 10:08 AM
Draco - thanks a mil for putting up the chart for me/us all x
I have read through your other threads. As I say I'm no horary practitioner - I had a few lessons with John Frawley but abandoned the course - however I am familiar with the work of William Lilly, Ptolemy etc.
I was not sure which was the significator of Litvinenko but I had no idea this was a debate that rages amongst the best horary practitioners. I have to agree with you though that I look like the Sun (ASC) and Saturn is in my sign - i.e. I am wondering about Litvinenko (7th) Saturn - hence Moon in AQ too
After the asc ruler, it's my understanding one should look for the Moon and ruler and the ruler of the significant house to the question. Saturn rules the 8th and he is dead. If it the question had been 'who killed him' we would look to aspects between Saturn and Moon as the 12th as the house of secret enemies i.e Moon but food did kill him which is also moon. The question though is the location. Which house then. You say 2nd or 5th. As 2nd ruler is also sun in the 5th, food in an hotel?? I don't know I'm just writing what's going through my head. I know that relative strengths and dignities, receptions etc will all affect the final 'answer'
Also, outside of the strict rules I see Mars in this chart (at degree that mercury was on date of administration of poison) as possibly being that the name of the trickster (mercury) is now in the public domain (mars rules the 10th in this chart). Is that a possible correct interp? The killer is Mars and his name may be confirmed when Mars reaches Jupiter at 0 Sag or perfects sq to Saturn
The data is 30 Aug 1962 Voronezh, Russia. No time
11-27-2006, 11:11 AM
I'll get busy with this chart later on and see what I can rustle up.
Just a word on Alexander's birth data, Wikipedia gives two different possible dates as to his date of birth, 30th October and 4th December 1962, and now there is another date, 30th August. This is a bit of a headache, considering that a birth time is desirable which we will probably never have, but now there are three different dates, and there being such discrepancy makes me wonder if any of them are correct. :confused: I wonder if his work as a spy has something to do with why his birth data is so illusive?
What was your source for this data?
11-27-2006, 12:25 PM
I searched around for hours. Litvinenko himself confirms Voronezh 1962 at the back of one of his books. 30 Aug was from Answers.com about 2 days ago before wikipedia etc had any data up. I'm going with it as i just blogged on it and it seems to fit.
Irritatingly, I can't find the original page now as I don't recall my search enquiry but it had lots of quoted sources. I wish I had noted it.
Trust me though that the data was nowhere except here 2 days ago. I looked everywhere (mercury in scorp!!)
Draco, (unukalhai) just editing this to say that I just did the 4 Dec chart and this data does look very good when you look at transits, pr etc etc, So too does the 30 Aug though, so this is a very tough one. The correspondences that I note in my blog apply to both. Where did you see the 30 october data? Haven't tried that one yet. Kx
11-27-2006, 05:38 PM
Draco. also forgot to add re your question "Astrology aside - radiation has been detected at the sushi bar - does this mean that other people will have been exposed to this intoxicant and will their health be at risk? How can the person who administered the poison have done so without risk of harm to their own self?"
Don't believe everything in the papers + newswires today about huge numbers of people at risk. It's all scaremongering. I'm obviously no expert on Polonium but I watched an expert talking about it on a news program and apparently the only risk of contamination is if someone got his saliva or others consumed traces of whatever it was put into, or it entered an open wound they had i.e a waiter. This posion emits different alpha rays as opposed to the gamma rays associated with radiation poisoning that affects the environment. This is why his wife and son aren't dead or dying - although they are obviously at huge risk from kissing him.
I'll await your horary findings. Thanks again Kx
11-27-2006, 07:04 PM
he is 14 aquarius ,, moon and neptune co-rule him
secret enemies 12th house. saturn is the ruler
9th house is govt
well govt was involved
saturn sits in his 1st house
neptune - poison
moon - made a square with 9th house ruler merc which is govt
mars squares saturn *coruler of intercepted 4th house*
That could be that he was working on undercover job.
probably he is right that govt took him down
11-28-2006, 09:18 AM
As far as answering the question of where Litvinenko may has been intoxicated, then I think that the sushi bar is likely.
It is known that polonium has to be ingested or enter the body through an open wound in order for it to take effect.
In the chart, taking Livinenko as the seventh, he is Saturn in it's detriment of Leo, which is appropriate as this horary was occassioned by the suffering and death of the quesited. Litvinenko's second house of sustenace, would be his food and drink, and this cusp is also ruled by Saturn, as is his twelfth cusp of hidden enemies, that both these things are represented by the same malefic significator which he comes under suggests that both his food and his covert foes are intimately associated with his suffering and death. Saturn happens to be right upon Litvinenko's turned eighth cusp, so the association of his hidden enemies with his food makes for a lethal combination. It would make sense if his assasins were foreigners, because they are shown by Saturn in it's exile, implying that they are outside of their natural environment and being on his eighth cusp, on a mission to kill him.
I wouldn't normally use the outer planets in horary, but it is intriguing to observe that Uranus in Pisces is in Litvinenko's turned second. Polonium 210 is extracted from Uranium ore, and Uranus appears in the house of his food in the sign of the fish, suggesting the sushi bar. I think this is where the lethal dose will have been administered, in his food or drink, because it is intriguing how the symbolism seems to be so appropriate for poisoning of food via a Uranium extract in a sushi bar, so I think it was here rather than the hotel, his friends flat or another location.
If we use the altumen of Litvinenko's cusp to signify him, we see that he is also show by Mercury in Scorpio, which is describing him in his former role as a spy, because it is the job of Mercury to collate information, but in Scorpio this is done covertly and at risk. This Mercury in Scorpio also tells us about Litvinenko's private work of investigating the circumstances surrounding the death of the murdered Russian Journalist Anna Politkovskaya, another outspoken critic of the Kremlin.
As I said, I would normally discount the outer planets in a horary, but Uranus features significantly all things considered, and the Moon's imminent conjunction to Neptune, the Moon being a secondary significator of Litvinenko, seems to bring the outer planets into focus again. Neptune is intoxication, and it's association with the sea hints at the sushi bar again, and as the Moon's last aspect before perfecting it's conjunction with Neptune is a square from Mercury, this suggests that Litvinenko met his fate as a consequence of his detective work in trying to uncover the circumstances surrounding the death of Politkavskaya, as the news suggests.
So Litvinenko was contaminated via food or more probably drink, consumed at the sushi bar, the next thing is to find out who did this to him, bearing in mind that his hidden enemies shown by Saturn in his exile, may indicate that his hidden enemies were on foreign soil.
Now, Litvinenko was a British Citizen, as he had obtained asylum in the UK for fear of his life, so to see if Russian nationals had anything to do with his death, I would look to the ninth rather than the fourth for Litvinenko's homeland, as he had renounced his Russian citizenship. The ninth house cusp of foreign lands has the malefic Dragon's Tail right upon it's cusp, a malign implication, and it being ruled by Mercury in Scorpio in the radix fourth suggests that underworld secret intelligences may be involved, indeed, perhaps former colleagues of Litvinenko's, as his former spywork and his private detective work in investigating the death of the murdered journalist is also represented by this significator.
This is as far as I have got in these observations, but I believe there is more to be delineated from the chart, but I will return with further observations.
So far, I would say that he was poisoned via polonium administered into his food or drink in the sushi bar, that his assasination was a consequence of his investigations into the death of Politkavskaya, as well as something to do with his former role as a spy, and that it is Russian secret intelligences that occasioned his death, probably former colleagues. So this chart would seem to confirm current speculations.
I have yet to look at this further, but an interesting story emerges.
11-28-2006, 10:04 AM
Draco, that's a great delineation. Thanks to tikana too. Now here's an interesting thing. One of the chief suspects is character called Igor. I say character because he really does seem to fit the role of a villain in a 'whodunnit' spy story.
He's described as a professional assassin, slim, muscular, six-footer, judo master who speaks 2 languages fluenty - English and Portugese and he's also said to have a limp!!
So, as we are following a trail, can you, (or anyone else) see him here (in the chart) and if you can what's he up to?
11-29-2006, 09:55 AM
Although this was the proper place to post this horary, it seems a coincident discussion is taking place in the 'mortal chart' thread. So, to keep it all together I have just posted the answer to my own question above in that thread instead.
I have 'located' Igor and reckon he 'dunnit' !
Quick reply and havent really read the reponses in detail but it is said that he was assasinated by The Russian government. 12th house ruled by Cancer - secret enemy from home. I thought 10th would be Government. MC ruled by Aries - aggressive act maybe. Not sure how POF figures there, maybe relates to his past luck or that if he were to stay "loyal" to the government, he would've fared better.
12-01-2006, 02:51 PM
Updated: 09:50 AM EST
Former Russian Officer Warns of Death Squad
By JENNIFER QUINN, AP
top.ch_refresher.add_ad('93179288', 160, 600, 0, '160x600_1');
LONDON (Dec. 1) - A former Russian security service officer said he warned a former KGB agent who was fatally poisoned in London about a government-sponsored death squad that intended to kill him and other Kremlin opponents.
· List of Flights Taken by Grounded Planes (http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/list-of-flights-taken-by-grounded-planes/n20061129150409990006)
· Doctors Think Former Premier Was Poisoned (http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/former-russian-premier-hospitalized/20061129101509990006)
Talk About It: Post Thoughts (http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=567051&func=3&channel=News)
In a letter released Friday, the former officer for the Federal Security Service, or FSB, said he refused to cooperate with the team, whose task was to kill Alexander Litvinenko and others. The FSB is the successor agency to the Soviet-era KGB.
Litvinenko, the former spy turned Kremlin critic who lived in Britain, died Nov. 23 at a London hospital, where doctors found traces of the rare radioactive element polonium-210 in his body. An autopsy was scheduled for Friday and doctors carrying out the examination planned safety precautions to protect themselves against radiation.
In a deathbed statement, Litvinenko blamed President Vladimir Putin for his poisoning - charges the Kremlin rejected as "sheer nonsense."
"Back in 2002, I warned Alexander Litvinenko that they set up a special team to kill him," the former security services officer, Mikhail Trepashkin, wrote in the letter dated Nov. 23 - the day of Litvinenko's death. The letter was released Friday by rights activists in Yekaterinburg, the center of the Ural Mountains province where he is serving his four-year sentence.
"Maybe, the death of Alexander Litvinenko, who fell victim to unpunished revenge, could force those dealing with human rights issues to finally pay attention to these facts."
An FSB spokesman refused to comment on Trepashkin's claim.
Trepashkin was arrested in October 2003 and convicted on charges of divulging state secrets while investigating allegations of FSB involvement in a series of deadly apartment bombings that killed about 300 people in Moscow and two other cities in 1999. The government blamed the explosions on Chechnya-based rebels, but Litvinenko and other Kremlin critics alleged they were staged by authorities as a pretext for launching the current Chechen war.
The FSB, where Trepashkin worked until 1997, alleged that he had been recruited by British agents to collect compromising materials on the explosions with the aim of discrediting the Russian security agency.
· Major Snowstorm Roars Into Plains, Midwest (http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/major-snowstorm-roars-into-plains/20061130075809990012)
· Rockwell Painting Found Behind Wall Sells for Record Price (http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/rockwell-painting-found-behind-wall/20061130122409990026)
· Was Soldier's Coffin on Airport Luggage Cart? (http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/was-soldiers-coffin-on-airport-luggage/20061130172009990004)
· Deputies Pull Man From Alligator's Jaws (http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/deputies-pull-man-from-alligators-jaws/20061129190309990003)
· Millions of Travelers Secretly Rated for Terrorism Potential (http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/millions-of-travelers-secretly-rated-for/20061130230309990009)
Trepashkin said in his letter that after his arrest authorities had put him in a cell contaminated with poisonous chemicals and threatened to kill him.
"Litvinenko and I aren't the last in this chain of victims of persecution," he wrote. "Maybe Litvinenko's death could make you believe in what he was saying."
Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Friday that Moscow was ready to answer concrete questions from Britain concerning Litvinenko's death, Russian news agencies reported.
"When the questions are formulated and sent through the existing channels, we will consider them thoroughly," Lavrov was quoted as saying in Jordan by the ITAR-Tass news agency. "There have been no such questions yet."
Traces of radiation have been found at a dozen sites in Britain and five jetliners were being investigated for possible contamination as authorities widened their investigation into Litvinenko's poisoning.
A coroner on Thursday formally opened an inquest into Litvinenko's death.
Doctors in Moscow have said they believed Yegor Gaidar, a former premier and head of a liberal opposition party, may also have been poisoned during a conference Nov. 24 in Ireland.
British Airways said Friday that one of its planes that has been parked at a Moscow airport would fly to London later in the day for a radiation check. Traces of radiation were found on it and two other aircraft that have traveled the Moscow-London route since Nov. 1, when Litvinenko is believed to have been poisoned.
12-01-06 02:42 EST
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
I don't like President Vladimir Putin. Never did and never will. He and Bush are both the same garbage.
12-03-2006, 11:00 PM
Polonium traced to Russia
British media reported that scientists at the country's Atomic Weapons Establishment had traced the source of the polonium to a nuclear power plant in Russia.
The head of Russia's state atomic energy agency Rosatom, Sergei Kiriyenko, told the government newspaper Rossiiskaya Gazeta Russia produces only 8 grams of polonium 210 a month. He said production was under tight government control.
It's also been glazed over by most media that he converted to Islam, but is now being mentioned more. Kavkaz was one of the first to mention it.
Alexander Litvinenko who was poisoned in London by the FSB, a Russian secret service, for criticizing Putin and died from poisoning on Thursday night, November 23, 2004, converted to Islam some time ago, the Chechenpress news agency reported.
Before he died, Muslim rituals were perforned at his death bed. A mullah, invited from a London mosque, read the Sunnah Yasin.
Lugovoi claims to have been "framed", such a typical copout.
This weekend a potential suspect — Andrei Lugovoi — admitted he had been contaminated with the radioactive poison polonium-210 but insisted: “I’ve been framed.”
And there is speculation floating around, apparently started by good ole Mario, that he had links to terror organizations...
The radiation spy scandal took a sensational twist last night with the revelation that KGB defector Alexander Litvinenko had converted to Islam before he died.
Scotland Yard detectives are now trying to discover if he had any secret links with Islamic extremist terror groups.
Their biggest fear is that the former Soviet spy, who died of polonium-210 poisoning in a London hospital, may have been helping Al Qaeda terrorists or other extremist groups get hold of radioactive material to be used in a devastating “dirty” atom bomb.
The news comes on top of a claim by Litvinenko’s friend Mario Scaramella that the former spy helped smuggle radioactive material from Russia to Switzerland in 2000.
Litvinenko’s sympathies with Chechen rebels, seeking to break away from Moscow and create an independent Muslim state, are well known.
And when Chechen rebels were blamed for a massive bomb attack in 1999 that destroyed a Moscow block of flats with the loss of 400 lives, Litvinenko enraged Russian President Vladimir Putin with his claim that the Russian leader himself ordered the attack in a bid to damage the Chechen cause.
Counterterrorism officers will now be scrutinising any possible Muslim links which could have assisted Al Qaeda’s avowed aim to detonate a radioactive bomb in America or Britain.
Litvinenko’s conversion to Islam was a closely guarded secret and came as a complete shock to his close Russian friends in Britain.
Remember, public media is often a disinformation game. Believe at your own risk.
01-03-2007, 08:35 AM
Saturn is the lord of 8th house,and Moon is the reason of death,with the oppositions of Moon and Saturn there are chances to make death by the poision.it right answer.Thanks tikana.
vBulletin® v3.8.2, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.