how can anyone see if cursed or bewitched?

[anna122]

hi! my name is ioanna. i have been always wondering how one can see through chart if he is cursed or bewitched. i have heard that house 12 is to be observed. is there a way to see in advance the outcome of such acts? time 16:45 pm

[Draco]

Hi Anna.

In his 'Christian Astrology', William Lilly describes his methods for dealing with the question 'If one be Bewitched or not'.

Pg 464-465

Chapter XCII:

'If one be Bewitched or not'.


'If the Lord of the twelfth be in the sixth, or the Lord of the sixth in the twelfth, or the Lord of the ascendant in the twelfth, or the Lord of the twelfth in the ascendant, or the Lord of the eighth in the ascendant, in a Question where suspicion of Witchcraft is, it is probable; otherwise not so: But the judgement succeding I have found more certain.


It's a received general rule, among those Artists that know the Cabalistic Key of Astrologie, that if one Planet be Lord of the ascendant and twelfth house, that then the sickness is more than natural: When Saturn is lord of the ascendant and the twelfth, and in the twelfth Retrograde, or in the seventh or eighth house in the same condition, the Moon being lady of the sixth, apply to Saturn, we constantly the judge the party inquiring is Bewitched or Forespoken, or that an evil Spirit has power over him, and that the Infirm will be sore oppressed and disturbed in his fancy if not distracted.


If the Lord of the ascendant be Combust, or unfortunate in the twelfth, or joined to the Lord of the twelfth house, there may be great fear, that the party inquiring or inquired for is Enchanted or Bewitched, or else some evil Spirits do haunt him. If the Lord of the ascendant be Lord of the twelfth, and Combust, you must observe of what house the Sun is Lord, and in what sign and quarter of Heaven he and the Lord of the ascendant are, and judge the Witch lives that way; describe the Sun in sign as he is, and it represents the person.


If the Lord of the ascendant be Lord of the twelfth, Combust, or unfortunate by the Lord of the third, it's a neighbour has procured some Witch to do this act, or one of the Kindred; see in what house the Lord of the ascendant falls to be in, and in what house the Lord of the third is in, and infortunates him, you may judge the cause of the malice to proceed from something of the nature of that house; as id either of them be in the sixth, it's for Pasturage of Cattle, or for one hiring the other's Servants, &c. and in like manner consider all the twelve houses.


If the Lord of the ascendant be unfortunate, as aforesaid, by the Lord of the fifth, it's some Alewife, Nurse or some drunken companion that occasions it, or has procured this Witchery.


If the Lord of the tenth aflict the Lord of the ascendant in the twelfth, it's doubtless the hand of God, or by some supernatural power or cause.

If the Lord of the ascendant be some unfortunate planet, as Mars or Saturn, and be in the twelfth house, Combust and unfortunated by the Lord of the twelfth, it imports the man is bewitched by a common witch.


If the Lord of the twelfth be in the ascendant it argues Witchcraft, or that some evil Spirit does molest the party, or that some that are near him or about him have evil tongues, or in plain terms, have bewitched him.


In places where people are troubled with Witches, as in many places of this Kingdom they are, these rules will hold: as also, if the Moon be in the twelfth, in opposition to the Lord of the ascendant or twelfth. If people suspect their Cattle bewitched, if they be great Cattle, make the make the twelfth house their ascendant, and the eleventh their twelfth house, and vary your rules with judgement.' (sic).

You gave no coordinates, place or a date at which the question was asked. When this happens, I use the time and place at which I read and understood the nature of the question in order to draw up a chart, which really, is the original way that horary is done anyway and the method I feel most comfortable with.

See what you can see in the chart that you get for the time that you asked the question according to Lilly's method. I'll be back soon to give you an interpretation of the chart I received according to when I first considered the question. ;)

[anna122]

hello Draco!!

thanks for your detailed description. can you please inform me of the elements i need to post. should i post a date, place and time at which the question was asked? including my birthdate and hour? :confused:

[Draco]

While I'm at it, In Christian Astrology, Lilly provides an example of a chart which he interpreted in answer to this question of whether or not a person is bewitched. As it turns out, Lilly determined that the person was suffering from a sexually transmitted disease.

Here is the chart for the question which was asked on the 13th March, 1646 at 8.03 am, but has been calculated for the 23rd March, 1647 to allow for changes in the calendar:

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/229/ifbewitchedez2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Chapter XCIV.

Pgs. 468-469.

'If Bewitched.

We must first consider if Mars Lord of the twelfth afflict Mercury Lord of the ascendant, or if Mars afflict the Moon; or whether Mercury be the Lord of the ascendant and twelfth, or if Saturn Lord of the eighth do mischieve the ascendant; for without the Lord of the ascendant or the ascendant itself, or the Moon be afflicted by the Lord of the twelfth, there's no strong Witchcraft: Here finding the Moon going to opposition of Saturn, both planets in the sixth and twelfth houses, it gave suspicion of Witchcraft, and there seemed to those that asked for the Querent some reason for it, in regard the Physicians had provided much Physic, and it wrought no effect, but the Patient was worse and worse: I positively affirmed he was not bewitched, because Mercury was in trine to Jupiter and Mars, and Venus in the twelfth, and Saturn much elongated from the cusp of the house, the Moon applying, after her opposition of Saturn, to Mercury Lord of the ascendant, he above the earth, ascending toward the Meridian.

I directed them again to advise with the Doctors, and civilly to acquaint them, that the disease peccant was occult, and lay in the Reigns and Secrets, and occasioned by too much Venerian sports, &c. That it was so, Libra is on the cusp of the sixth: Venus lady of the sign in the twelfth; ergo, an occult secret Disease, and Venerian.

Moon in Scorpio in the sixth, in opposition to Saturn in the twelfth; This argues a Female Disease, closely obtained; for as it was a deed of darkness, so do neither Saturn or the Moon behold the ascendant: I judged he was itchy, because Mercury ws in Pisces, a moist Sign, and because Libra the Sign of the sixth, and Gemini are airy Signs, the Disease was all over his bones, and his joints, and in his Blood, that being corrupted: I did not say it was a perfect Lues Veneria, but I gave caution to prevent it. This advice was followed, the course of Physic, and the afflicted party in about two or three weks perfectly recovered.'

[Draco]

Hi again Ioanna.

Sorry, I was typing again when you posted, I thought that since we were considering a question of 'if bewitched', it might be interesting to provide Lilly's example from CA.

thanks for your detailed description. can you please inform me of the elements i need to post. should i post a date, place and time at which the question was asked? including my birthdate and hour? :confused:

I see that you are new to this. ;) Horary astrology concerns finding the answer to a specific question by drawing up a chart for the time and place at which the question was asked (or, more appropriately, understood). It isn't necessary to provide natal data in order to answer a specific question of horary astrology.

In the old days, before the invention of long distance communication, the time at which a question was asked was nearly always the same time at which that question was understood. If the astrologer was to obtain a letter asking a question, he would draw up a chart for the moment at which he had read and understood the question. Many astrologer's today still use this method, even if, in a letter for example, the time of when the querent first thought is included with the question.

Of course, on a forum such as this, it is not possible to follow this traditional method because if a person was to ask a question and not leave a time and a place at which they thought of it, then as subsequent people join the thread with various interpretations, each would be looking at a different chart according to the time and place in which they individually decided to interpret. It is better for our practice and learning that we are referring to one chart, so that we can learn and share ideas and discussion. So even though it is better to interpret a question based upon the chart for the time that it is understood by one who is to interpret it, in an environment such as this, it isn't always possible.

This is why whenever I see a question that has been asked, but no time or place has been given at which it was asked, or it has not been given completely, I take this opportunity to use the proper method, of drawing up a chart according to the moment I decided to try to interpret and felt that I understood what the inquiry was about.

I have a chart, but before I try to interpret this, might I ask, why is it that you feel that you may be cursed or bewitched? A bit of background information regarding the circumstances behind the question will make interpretation much easier, otherwise there is so much that can be overlooked.

[anna122]

hi Draco!

i was born in 13/4/1977 19:45 pm location greece thessaloniki.
your description of the chart was very detailed but i also want to ask on the distinction between the act of bewitchment or a mere envious attitude. i mean how can one find out through chart if he is under this attack or he has just had a run of bad lack or he has just had some enemies troubling him without having necessarilily to suffering from bewitchment.
now when it comes to me i used to suffer from malicious people (enemies) in the past. but how can i figure this out (whether it is an attack or just envy) regarding my chart? and i also want to ask whether it is possible through astro stuff to find out the outcome of such attacks. i have heard that it is possible to predict the outcome but i am not sure about. i think that it lies in factors that are less likely to be predicted since they are spiritual and psychic. i want your opinion on that and on my chart if possible. thanks
the question is asked at 19:50pm. :confused: