A way to determine date of death?

[piercethevale]

Due to what I found concerning a septile arrangement [matrix] in a historical personages birth chart [unverified , but accepted by me.] I've had a thought.
This is as to the aforementioned person having 4 of the points of a Septile matrix at birth and that the time of death chart shows that those missing 3 points were fulfilled by the conj. of transiting luminaries and Planets on that day.
As the matrix is rare on a natal chart, I wonder if that sometime during ones life if the progressed chart may temporarily become a partial matrix [or even complete] and that from that point is where a condition is set into the individual that may reach its maturity when whatever points of that septile remained from that progressed charts' matrix.
It's a pretty far out conjecture, and at best may probably only be found in some instances if at all. Still, I think it worthy of an investigation by someone with the time on their hands...and this would be a time consumer!

[Mark]

If I follow correctly, you are positing that harmonic matrices, making an example of septiles, can form a portal-like marker in time for the individual described by the chart, marking the start of a new condition or journey in life, including death. If I misinterpreted, please correct me.

I would like to follow up by asking: how might this be expected to manifest in the average chart, those which don't have any significant harmonic patterns? Also, would a particular harmonic (say, novile rather than septile) be indicative of particular conditions? If I understand correctly, then this approach might be able to squeeze a little extra information out of timely harmonic patterns in progressed charts.

[piercethevale]

If I follow correctly, you are positing that harmonic matrices, making an example of septiles, can form a portal-like marker in time for the individual described by the chart, marking the start of a new condition or journey in life, including death. If I misinterpreted, please correct me.

I would like to follow up by asking: how might this be expected to manifest in the average chart, those which don't have any significant harmonic patterns? Also, would a particular harmonic (say, novile rather than septile) be indicative of particular conditions? If I understand correctly, then this approach might be able to squeeze a little extra information out of timely harmonic patterns in progressed charts.

The Septile is called an aspect of fatality. I'm extrapolating from what I've garnered working with my 'proposed' birth chart for Jesus/Yeshua.
It's just a thought that went bump in the night. Truly, I don't think the time of death is to be known...but as it is a constant question in these forums I just thought I'd "put one out there for thought".
I imagine at some time each of us has a septile matrix completed by progression...the question is when and what happened.
It may be based on the Natal chart or possibly any time a noticeably significant amount of a septile matrix is seen in a progressed chart and from that point the "Watch is on"...just some thoughts...that's all. The chart I'm using is based on the Asc. as being crucially involved...that would be a place to begin an investigation.:wink:

[piercethevale]

Well, since the subject is on the plate, so to speak. Here's an interesting observation on the death issue. [I have published this before at other forums and probably somewhere in this forum too...but I'm repeating it for those that are unaware of it...]
Another birth of controversy of a politician is that of Hillary Clinton. There has been some differnet figures given for the exact time of Her birth.
The one that is the most widely accepted and used [and is considered form the most creditable source is that of 8:05 AM in chicago on Oct 26, 1947.]
When the Presidential election was starting to get rolling the last time, I had a great deal of interest going on with the Natal Astrology of the candidates...so I asked my clairvoyant friend, the reknowned Clarisse Conner, to give Hillarys' Birth a 'SEE' for me as to try to confirm the time. Clarisee said that she saw something wrong. Clarisse said that Hillary had been born about 4 minutes earlier [or it may have been 6...can't exactly remember now] and that it took them until 8:05 to get her breathing...that Hillary had in fact been born dead.
So I did a chart for 8:01 AM and here's what I got. For the Part of Death [Medieval], the formula for which is C8 + Saturn - Moon = 20* Scorpio 48'...tht folks, is exactly conjunct the Asc for 8:01 AM...thus Hillarys awareness at birth was 'Death'...now isn't that interesting....!?!

Btw Hillarys' Part of Organization is [for the 8:05 AM chart...the formula for which is Asc. + Pluto - Saturn ] is 05* Virgo 15' and Her M.C. is 05* Virgo 55' and that Saturn made a conj. to Her M.C. during the beginning of Her campaign...thus confirming and explaining why her Organization falling apart was the crippling blow that took Her out of serious contention.
It also says a lot for Parts that incl. Pluto and also implying the same for the other trans-Saturn planets in Parts and the formulas...and bolsters Pluto rightful status as a Planet and one that is every bit as influential as the others.


Here's a chart for Hilary for 8:01 AM so that you can easily verify this for your selves...ptv

[isismagdalenne]

I cant go into all these discussions here. I am WAY too novice for that. But, I do read them, and I wanted to point out that, because they have to get a baby to breath, does not mean they are born dead. My daughter had the cord double wrapped around her neck, she was in distress, but not dead. Inside the womb, they are not breathing air...it isnt until they come out that they need to. So, my daughter was not born dead, she was fully alive...but without being able to GET her to take that breath..she wouldve been DYING. But who's to say how close our close calls are. Which close calls count as "a brush with death" so to speak?

[piercethevale]

I cant go into all these discussions here. I am WAY too novice for that. But, I do read them, and I wanted to point out that, because they have to get a baby to breath, does not mean they are born dead. My daughter had the cord double wrapped around her neck, she was in distress, but not dead. Inside the womb, they are not breathing air...it isnt until they come out that they need to. So, my daughter was not born dead, she was fully alive...but without being able to GET her to take that breath..she wouldve been DYING. But who's to say how close our close calls are. Which close calls count as "a brush with death" so to speak?

Thank you, I'm sure someone will find that news and of some use somehow.
I'm aware of that and so is Clarisse. As I said it was probably closer to 6 mins to get her to breathe from what the clairvoyant saw....and as the Part is off by one degree according to the chart I posted for 8:01 it probably was 7:57 or 58 AM... Clarisse noted that it took a bit of time to get it happening and I recall that she said it was due to something a bit unordinary...in fact there was a lot more to the conversation and also some follow up questions and answers she gave on Hillary that aren't pertinent to the point of the topic.

...and a Part of Death when it's conj. an Asc. says to me that there is an 'Awareness of Death' ...as that is the first awareness the child is experiencing...not that the 'self' is dead necessarily...but that the 'self' is aware of death....and after all as it is a situation which the baby can't extricate it self from it is an indication of the potential of that occurring.
it should also be noted that [from what I've been told.] the physicians record the birth time at the 1st breath...Edgar Cayce even talked about it in a reading he gave...as the question posed to Mr. Cayce was when the 'Soul' actually takes possession of the newly conceived....Cayce's reply [from what I can recall] was: "At the taking of the first breath"...but I also recall Cayce saying it wasn't some "Hard and Fast" rule ..in that there were some exceptions to that also...

[Mark]

According to the Cayce readings, it seems that some bodies are taken by the soul hours prior to birth and some are taken hours after birth. I have personally reviewed readings for both. According to Cayce, the primary determining factor for exactly when the possession takes place is the collection of vibrations that are present in the area at the time, which makes perfect sense from an astrological point of view. Whichever vibrations will most aid the entity in accomplishing its purpose in later life will be the ones chosen, which makes the exact time almost impossible to determine from a physical point of view. Cayce also said that the proper time to use for astrological considerations is the time of physical first breath because that chart will not change throughout the individual's life; it is "set." This infers (though Cayce didn't directly state this) that other astrological factors internal to the individual are left in "flux" and will change according to the will and activity of the individual over time. This makes it possible for a person to act more on their Mars influences and less on their Jupiter influences, while still possessing both. The birth chart erected according to the physical first breath details all the influences that were chosen to be available to the entity, but the real factors are internal and constantly changing.

[piercethevale]

According to the Cayce readings, it seems that some bodies are taken by the soul hours prior to birth and some are taken hours after birth. I have personally reviewed readings for both. According to Cayce, the primary determining factor for exactly when the possession takes place is the collection of vibrations that are present in the area at the time, which makes perfect sense from an astrological point of view. Whichever vibrations will most aid the entity in accomplishing its purpose in later life will be the ones chosen, which makes the exact time almost impossible to determine from a physical point of view. Cayce also said that the proper time to use for astrological considerations is the time of physical first breath because that chart will not change throughout the individual's life; it is "set." This infers (though Cayce didn't directly state this) that other astrological factors internal to the individual are left in "flux" and will change according to the will and activity of the individual over time. This makes it possible for a person to act more on their Mars influences and less on their Jupiter influences, while still possessing both. The birth chart erected according to the physical first breath details all the influences that were chosen to be available to the entity, but the real factors are internal and constantly changing.

Thanks Mark. I needed a memory jog. Ever since 2004 I've been so caught up with this astrology endeavor I've had little time to pursue any more studies of Cayce and a lot of what I've read is getting harder to recall in entirety and some of it may be lost to conscious recollection.

[piercethevale]

I was posting at astrodiensts forum back in 2008 and a member of that forum literally attecked me verbally and kept calling me things like a liar, a bulls******, etc. as she claimed there was no such thing as an ARE publication known as "The Black Book". [The compendium of many of Cayce readings sorted by topics.]
I got so irritated with the gal and as she wouldn't let up on the subject and had just about derailed the topic of the thread altogether I searched the internet and found it in AREs' web-site in their bookstore [I'm pretty sure it was...as they did publish it...but it may have been something like Ebay too.] and I copied and pasted the ad in my next reply. She then responded: "OH THAT...THAT'S OLD"...no apology, no admitting she was wrong...just another attempt at belittling me and the affair just made her all the more adamant in coming threads in her intent to do so. There are a lot of members over at astrodienst that are vicious...some are truly Trolls with no interest in Astrology other than a dedicated attempt to dis-credit it.

[piercethevale]

I wish to add that this anecdote I related about Clarisse once again establishes Her credibility as to being a true clairvoyant. I do have to give Her credit for this and other times that she gave me some in-"SIGHT" into Astrological mysteries/questions and provided a threshold, another step up a ladder, etc. of greater understanding.

[JUPITERASC]

these are links to threads that have explored this topic :smile: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40677&highlight=alcoccoden

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8767&highlight=alcoccoden