Lesbian Sun Moon Question

[Vyedma]

I have a question about the sun and moon in lesbian relationship charts. I'm reading a book that says to look for the moon in a mans chart to represent the woman and look for the sun in a woman's chart to represent the man.

What happens if both people are women? Does the moon get used for both people? Does the sun get used for the more butch woman? Does the sun and moon show were each other is masculine or feminine in the relationship?

[23]

I have often thought about this myself. I was trying to figure this out with eros and psyche as well the other week.

Maybe you have to look the venus in the chart. In heterosexual females, venus points to what type of females you are attracted to in a platonic way so I imagine that with lesbians, venus represents who you like to have a romantic relationship with while mars is the type of sexual expression you seek in your female parter.

[Draco]

I have a question about the sun and moon in lesbian relationship charts. I'm reading a book that says to look for the moon in a mans chart to represent the woman and look for the sun in a woman's chart to represent the man.

I know, annoying isn't it? It's as if these writers convieniently forget that were not all in heterosexual relationships.

In horaries, Lilly uses Venus for her, and the Sun for him (why not the equals of the Sun and Moon I have no idea, the sexism of his era I suppose).

If I remember rightly, this is the reverse for nocturnal charts, Moon for her, Saturn for him.

In the case of two women, I go for the Moon and Venus, the Moon for whoever is the 'matriarch' of the relationship, the Moon being naturally more prominent. For two men, the Sun and Mars, the Sun for the naturally stronger, more assertive male.

Then again, having said this, why only consider a man's Sun and a woman's Moon, are the the way in which her Sun appears in his chart, and where his Moon appears in hers not just as important?

[Draco]

Must a lesbian be defined as a 'butch woman' by necessity though? I thought a lesbian was defined by the criteria that concerns a female that is attracted to her own biological kin, regardless of whether such women are to be identified by the prevailing stereotype that they ought to have short hair, wear mens shirts and boots and have a swagger like John Wayne. Only the other day I met a lesbian couple, and both of them very feminine, long styled hair, make up, pretty clothes - and even I commented how I wouldn't have guessed it because they didn't conform to the prevailing stereotype that society deems we should have of what defines a lesbian.

There are in fact quite a number of gay people that don't conform to such stereotyping, but as people can't identify such people as gay when they walk past them in the street, these go unnoticed, only the butch lesbians and effeminate gays stand out - unless you have an inside eye, and see that it isn't always so clear cut.

The question of what natural significators ought to be used in a horary to represent the two halves of a gay relationship is an interesting one, but I'm not sure I believe that the way in which a person will evolve to express the sexuality can be indentified in the natal, anymore than a person's race, nationality, social class or sex can be determined. If these things are able to be gleaned from the natal horoscope, we seem to lack the criteria by which such things can be ascertained.

There are those who seem to take a lot of interest in trying to observe what might indicate homosexuality in a chart, especially in the charts of known gay people, they want to dive straight in and answer 'what makes this person gay?', but you might as well take another chart and try and answer 'what makes this person straight?'. If people were so keen on trying to identify race by natal charts, i.e. 'what makes this person black?', this might be considered something of a hot potato - and rightly so.

I believe that a person chart will show what needs they have in a relationship, how they might go about partners and the type of people they will likely attract into their life, but whether they will relate with men, women or the garden gnome is based upon so many other factors outside astrology.

The Spartans: Could the individual horoscopes of an entire race of people indicate that they were all practicing homosexuals as a societal norm?

[Draco]

Clearly you have missed the point.

How have I missed the point? If I have then I'll accept that I have.


Just as we get butch women and effeminate men the whole area of sexuality is not really that hard. When delineating a natal chart the characteristics of masculinity and femininity can be seen by quantity in the overall nativity.

[Draco]

When delineating a natal chart there are energy release patterns that do show how a person is most likely to react whether it be in bed, at work or lazing around in the comfort of your own home.

the natal chart correctly read does show these drives.

So do you mean that you can identify 'energy release patterns' indicating lesbianism by analysing a natal chart alone? This seems to suggest so, if not plainly.

Sure, a persons horoscope might indeed reveal what they might be like in the sack, but I don't think it will tell you whether it will be man, a woman or a goat in bed with them. People are people, I'm not sure Astrology sees us as walking penises and vaginas, I think we are looked upon rather as souls from the stellar perspective. It isn't determined at the nativity what direction in which a persons sexual energies will be channeled, a person's tendancies to relating with others will be there, but not the biological sexes to which these attentions will be turned toward. That is because to which sex or sexes a persons sexual inclinations or practices will be directed towards have yet to be conditioned, shaped and defined as the life unfolds and the psychology develops, not everything can be subject to astrological interpretation.

For example, a chart may show how a person may go about friendships, but surely these indications hold true regardless of whether we are talking about female or male friends - so why is it different for relationships?

I am not of the very disturbing and dangerous belief that people are somehow born gay. This view propounds that homosexuality is some sort of genetic abberation, and is a get out clause for those in denial (or not) as to their homophobia that they could never have possibly have been gay. Those who claim to be able to identify sexuality in the nativity seem to hold this conviction. This would be to deny the fact that people who have haplessly been categorised by both themselves and society at large as gay, given different circumstances and experiences, could not have been otherwise, and that straight people could not have turned out to be something other than what they are. Of course this is not the case. The human being is unique in that we are so intelligent we are the only creature on this earth with the innate capacity for bisexual expression, but obviously, due to our various conditionings, our values, belief systems and views upon sex and gender (which most people don't know the difference between), most people tend to get psychosexually conditioned the 'right' way, and the rest in their confusion, grab onto the passing driftwood in the flood of social conditioning and are whisked along into the other category. Which of course, they, and we all, are more or less forced to, because our hoodwinked societies, are so keen on putting people into nice, neat little categories, with specific identifying labels placed upon them, which are then filed away into numbered drawers in titled filing cabinets in colour coded rooms, with locks on the doors.

Such is the nature of the material world of weights and measures in which we live, which must determine everything according to definate measures, and it is this conciousness situated in materialism that insists upon seeing people as biological entities and not souls. It was the so called 'Enlightenment' that started all this, and astrology has been going down-hill ever since, because it has been dragged from the soul orientated philosophical basis in which it once flourished, and the only way astrolgy could ever reclaim its credibility in any decent measure would be to change that world view to the philosophy from which it first sprang, and that would mean accepting that sexuality cannot be ascertained in the natal. As it is, here we are, languishing in a world about as material as it can possibly get, and consequently, astrology is about as disreputable as it can possibly get, because it just does not come across as credible in the context of the prevailing world view.

Interestingly enough, the founding fathers of astrology, in their various cultures, had no words for 'sexuality', 'heterosexual' or 'homosexual'. This suggests that no such distinctions were made. Sex was sex, people were people.

You then went on rambling about how you cannot see race, skin colour and all manner of other irrelevant things from a natal chart.

Indeed I did but I never mentioned anything irrelevant to your suggestion that 'just as we get butch women (=lesbian?) and effeminate men (=homosexual?) the whole area of sexuality is not really that hard. When delineating a natal chart the characteristics of masculinity and femininity can be seen by quantity in the overall nativity'.

This sentence demonstrates an ignorance of the difference between sex, sexuality and gender.

I reiterate, the orientation of a persons sexuality cannot be ascertained from the nativity any more than can a persons race, social class, nationality or biological sex. Even if you are saying that it can without actually plainly saying that it can. If it was possible, then why does nobody possess the criteria by which such things can be ascertained?

[Arian Maverick]

I have nothing new to add to this thread, yet I was reading through the astrological blog of one of our members (Collaborate With Fate (http://collaboratingwithfate.blogspot.com/)) and was tickled by the synchronicity; this is part of an entry about Simon Cowell that was posted today, several minutes before I decided to visit! ;)

The Moon in close proximity to his natal Saturn reveals that his emotional control is as strictly controlled as his public image; but what you see is not necessarily what you get outside the workplace with this man. Although he openly flirts with Paula Abdul, assiduously cultivates an image of being a ladies man and is seen to be in a relationship with Terri Seymour, rumors persist about Mr Cowell's sexual persuasion. Astrological correspondences simply cannot denote whether someone is gay for that's a matter of personal choice.

Arian Maverick

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[Claire19]

The whole issue of homosexuality in both sexes has always fascinated me.
I guess to use the terms yin and yang, active and passive is more appropriate terminology rather than masculine and feminine.
Uranus connecting to Venus and Mars, as well as Neptune in my experience are strong indicators. I find also that the air signs of Aquarius, Gemini and Libra pre-dispose to homosexuality and bi-sexuality in my experience. I have known feminine lesbians and masculine gay men too and it is a perplexing mystery to me. Are they here to experience the broader spectrum of love and sex and not be subject to stereotyping?

Claire

[VENUS]

in all the homosexual/ bisexual charts i have looked at, ive noticed alot of aquarias, and uranus involved in the chart.....particurlarly in homosexual male's charts, water is dominant..... i dont know if anyone agrees, thats just what i have noticed :)

[23]

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/011560.html

[VENUS]

hmmmm, interesting 23. i looked up that link...i could agree with that, but you also have to look at ongoing patterns. finding homosexuality in someones chart i think is very difficult. ( unless they tell you they are homosexual.) lol

[23]

I agree, I've been told its a no-no, a bit like looking up death in a person's chart.

[Francesca]

Well, Draco, you are the king of horary, but I must disagree with you on this one. We are not the only species to make the "choice" of bisexuality. Bonobo chimps have sex regularly with their own and opposite sexed partners on a daily basis. And homsexual behavior among animals is practically universal in nature as a whole.

Furthermore, every day brings more evidence that much (by no means all) of our sexual behavior could well be genetic. The last study to pique my interest was one in which it was shown that lesbian women and men have similar hearing patterns. Certain sounds women can hear that men can't, are not heard by lesbians.

And, for those who persist in thinking that lesbian couples mimic the male/female roles of heterosexuals, please be disabused of that notion. That was common before gay liberation/feminism, because people had little choice but defining themselves by the dominant model. Most of the lesbians I know find the butch fem thing distasteful and antifeminist.

[Claire19]

It is a fascinating topic I believe. However I have seen feminine lesbian couples together and two "butch" women together. We cant generalise. I feel that we are born with the predisposition, some are bi sexual, some are wholly homosexual and some wholly heterosexual. The aspects for homosexuality are Neptune to Venus Mars, Uranus to Venus Mars. THe Sun and Moon is how we view our parents and male and female figures generally. It is our inner yin and yang but not necessarily sexuality. The air sign involvement seem to predominate in my observations with sexual abnormalities and unconventionality. Neptune can represent feelings of inadequacy and passivity also indiscrimination whereas Uranus is unconventional, breaks down the stereotypes and is experimental. A man can be predominantly yin and water/earth and a woman yang and say fire/air and still be straight. I believe we are born with the predisposition and I dont believe it is a choice from what I hear from my gay friends. Only some men are overtly gay and some women overtly butch.

Are there more gay men than women???I believe so. All foetuses start off as female which is why everyone has nipples. It is much harder to become male in the womb and some babies dont get enough testosterone to make them completely male. They get the first rush and not the second apparently in some cases.

Claire.

[Claire19]

I agree you cant always tell if someone is homosexual by looking at the chart but very often you see significant signs. I think if you see two or more aspects with Mars, Pluto, the 8th house and the 5th you can be pretty certain also the 1st. However I can tell if someone is not homosexual more easily. Many people deny their homosexuality and lead "normal" lives with families. Many men in incarceration for instance will have homosexual encounters but carry on normal lives once liberated and not see themselves as gay at all. I have seen a doco where monkeys will carry out an act of copulation for displays of control and then again to comfort the younger ones who are often their offspring. So sex is not always for reproduction in the animal kingdom either.

Claire

[Francesca]

Post Script for Draco: I'm curious about your attitude re: genetic gayness. I see it as a huge positive because it is so pervasive in species, and cultures, it must be an evolutionary advantage in some way, probably social.

[astromony]

This is a great subject at this time for me because i've been reading the Gnostic Gospels which is a text which was kept in the Nag Hammadi library and was brought fourth in part by Carl Yung in the 1940's, i think. This text was written right around the time of Jesus and the New Testament in the Coptic language(Eqyptian with Greek letters). And while the mainstream Christian religion preached "Go fourth and be fruitful," this text which was considered heretical preached that one must renounce the flesh inorder to enter the "bridal chamber" of God. When women turn away from men and men turn away from women, humans will become immortal, where we no longer have to die. Also in these texts, Mary Magdelene is the beloved disciple of Jesus and women are given the task of leading the church. The Davinci Code uncovered this idea of Mary as Jesus beloved in Davinci's Last Supper. The idea of women leading the church was also squelched as heretical.
These ideas fascinate me. I think this ties into the homosexual issue in that this type of sexual expression doesn't spread the seed. It also is probably a very scary notion for today's people as having children is still considered very important even though half the population of the planet is below poverty level and there has been a gargantuan population increase in the past 150 years. With 6 billion people on the planet and "wars and rumours of wars," I'm not so sure that it's in my best interest to make judgement upon those who do not wish to bear children, no matter whether they cuddle up with another of the same sex. After all, there are many children who are starving and many who are unwanted. I believe every living thing is a part of creation and we are more alike any other human on this planet than we are different.
It's interesting to see the prevalence of Uranus aspects in charts of "gay" people because I see Uranus as supplying the willingness to drum to the beat of your own drummer. And with Uranus aligns with Venus and mars in a natal chart, this may be a willingness to be who we are. I read an interesting book recently called "The sexual Brain" by Simon Levay. In it he finds some links in the brain with homosexuality. It has existed as long as male and female have. Oh yeah, the Gnostic Gospels also talk of a female creator known as Sophia, or "Mother of the Universe." There is also talk of soulmates uniting as one in the next existence. I think that a tendancy toward a feminine or masculine type of nurturing can be ascertained by our natal charts but I also think that a soulmate brings fulfillment to us whether this most special one is male or female in gender. Our souls are genderless. Thanks for the discussion.