How about this for a test?.......

[juicey J.]

Ok, here it is, get dozens if not even more people, get an accurate or as accurate as possible birth info. Survy them for personality, personal taste, personal religious and political view points as well as major life events and the dates of said events. Now, look at their charts. My theory is those with different sign placements (in the plaents as well as angles) will show a degree of difference, those with different house placements (using a set house system across the board) will show a degree of difference, and those with good handful or so of stress (square, oppostion, quincux) between each other's charts will show a degree of difference. My theory is those with lots of difference in sign and house placements as well as a good number of stress aspects to each others charts will show quite a bit of difference in personality, personal taste, personal beliefs, and perhaps in life experiences as well. I also, theorize time twins or even twins with the same sign and house placements across the board but with a handful or more of stress aspects will show more then a fair share of differences in personality, beliefs, and perhaps life experiences.

[juicey J.]

Also, statistically test if there is any commonality between people with the same aspects (sun square jupiter for example) or aspect patterns (t-square for example). Of course dozens upon dozens will have to be tested and the birth dates would have to be checked (using 2 or more sources). Maybe such tests could be refined with certain factors being isolated to check for statistical commonality.

[dr. farr]

I think this would be a good test!

[juicey J.]

I think this would be a good test!

I think a data base and a research team (of astrologers and statistical researchers) would have to be created to collected and go over the data and see what common features there are in the test answers and see if they find anything similar at all in the charts and then get other test samples and see if they can find people with the same chart factors and see if they find the same commonalities. Also, they might have to get universities behind this to get test samples and help with data organization. It will likely take hundreds of charts to find something statistically significant. Also, like I said before finding and testing time twins and twins will be a big factor in this and comparing and contrasting the other tests to such will be a huge part of this.

[juicey J.]

Someone just informed me of a perfect place to get a data sample. In twinsberg, Ohio the first weekend in August there's a twin convention where over 2000 sets of twins participate every year. I don't have the time or money to go their and get people to sample with my test idea (wish i did) but someone out there has to have the time, money, and connections, there just has to be, as this is way to good a research opportunity for astrologers and researchers to pass up.

[Mark]

It is a good idea. The trouble is resources, as you've said. In order to derive any results that could be called representative of the population, we would need to test 1200+ people. That is the generally accepted threshold which will provide less than 2% variation between the test group and total population, assuming accurate sampling. That's a lot of number-crunching. Gathering data from 2,000 pairs of twins would be a wonderful way to test differences between people with almost identical charts. I would be willing to volunteer my work on this project, but, as you said, it would require whole teams of researchers, dedicating a good deal of time to it. I would be willing to be one of those, but we would need a lot of help!

[juicey J.]

We'll you see mark the inspiration for this idea was two things 1. The fallacy of thinking twins and time twins can be quite different and therefor astrology is bunk. 2. Tests where astrologers fail to match personality tests to a horoscope and the fallacy this proves astrology wrong.

Now, with twins there are other factors besides astrology also, I believe stress aspects between the twins charts (as well as in some cases a different rising and/or mc) might factor in these differences.

As for astrologers not being able to match horoscopes with personality tests the problem is there are like X 20 more personality and character varations in astrology as compared with standard personality tests and more then one horoscope would match with a particular general personality type, the question is does such horoscopes have on average a good number of the same sign, house, and aspect patterns and does the postive aspect patterns between said charts outweigh the stress aspects?
Also, this is why I think for such test other questionaries such as personal taste and belief have to be filled out.

The important thing is to not worry at first about finding strong statistical results but to create a data base as a cross refrence point.

[juicey J.]

Well the other problem with thinking astrologers not being able to match personality tests to horoscopes disproves astrology is its comparing apples to oranges since astrology analyzes and describes personality a bit differently and has way more varations. Still the question is will people with similar chart factors and with mainly postive aspects between them answer (doesn't matter if they are being fully honest or not) them at high rate of similarlity?

[Mark]

Sounds fun. How many people do we have who would work on the project? Volunteers?

[juicey J.]

The other thing to do for my little test/data base idea is to not only create a data base of twins and time twins as a control/refrence group but one which, compares males and females, especially those with identical or highly similar charts. Reason being is societial gender roles create varations in male and female life experiences and certain planets mean different things for males and females when it comes to sexuality, relationships, and biology.

[juicey J.]

Sounds fun. How many people do we have who would work on the project? Volunteers?

We would need people who could get like two if not more large organizations such a university to participate.

[Mark]

Well, if you want to get this done, then perhaps the best way to start is to write up a concise list of questions for people to answer. We could use this thread to refine the parametres of the questions. I imagine it would take at least five whole-draft revisions to get something I'd be willing to call a useful questionnaire. Birth place, date, and time are obvious, and we could only use those questionnaires that could provide all three. Perhaps this thread should be used for drafting what should be asked next? After we have a questionnaire, we can think about how to get people to fill it out for us.

[juicey J.]

Well I'm not good at making out such questionaries. I think a standard personality test should be used. As for the personal taste and personal belief questionaire should we ask about politcal view points, view points on hot button issues like abortion and gay marriage? I even think even trival things like favorite genre of art and favorite band should be asked. I'm willing and open to suggestions but I'm not the best at the details. Also, we need the twin data base its an essential part of the test also, a good number of the people involved have to be astrologers or people with enough knowledge to know and understand basic chart and synastry theory. Patient I'm going to try to bring in some other people on board with this idea and will keep this line open.

[Mark]

Perhaps we could more easily start a list of questions by reading through a good list of keywords associated with each sign to find the contexts (areas) in which they differ. We could do the same for each planet. We could collect data about facial features, reactions to given situations, preferences for noise environment, and any number of other things. By identifying a list of contexts of variation like this, we can write a list of questions that will allow us to confirm or refute our existing ideas about the signs and planets.

Getting people to fill out the questionnaire would be the difficult part, but that is just logistics. If we have a viable tool to use (questionnaire), then I'm sure we will find some opportunity to implement it eventually. I have a website that could be used to host it and I could write the script to accumulate the information. The chartered purpose of my site is astrological research and development. I don't have the traffic to gather a lot of individuals, though, so they would have to be sent from somewhere else. Anyway, the first step clearly seems to be making a solid questionnaire.

We also must consider that a few individuals might want to intentionally skew the data just because they have too much time on their hands. So, in gathering individuals to provide data, we'll need to target a certain demographic and not leave lots of links to the questionnaire strewn about everywhere. If we create a good questionnaire and get everything ready for data collection, I could drop some emails to admins of sites like astro.com and a number of others to see if they would shoot me a link for a week or so in order to further astrological research. I wouldn't count on astro.com for cooperation, but there are many other such sites with large amounts of traffic from a narrow demographic that may be motivated to contribute.

If implemented in this way, the questionnaire would need to be more generalised. I would love to have a huge database of twin data as well, so we could write another questionnaire just for twins and then I could drop some emails to sites about twins to see if any of them would want to contribute to astrological research on themselves. All of this is doable. I would recommend starting with the general questionnaire, derived from expected contexts of variation between the signs and planets. If we do this, we will actually have data to say something about whether or not certain astrological assumptions are functionally correct.

[juicey J.]

Also, we need to create an identical twins vs ferternal twins data base as well as a twins of different gender vs twins of the same gender data base. Also, a time twins data base (which will be tricky to get) to compare and contrast results from the other twin data bases. I'm not joking about getting other people on board and I'm not talking regular joes off the street either, I'm crossing my fingers I will be able to get them to agree.

[juicey J.]

Also, we probly want to ask what their career is and what jobs they held. Also, what they majored in college, and what their favorite subject or subjects were in school. Also, ask them about what hobbies they have or had in the past.
Also, if differences between two person's don't really appear in the synastry between their charts we might want to check if there is lots of stress aspects in their composite charts, with twins for the most part the natal is the composite chart. But then again in order for any two people to be alike in my theory not only do they have to have planets and angles in the same signs but the synastry between them has to be postive and likely have to be of the same gender as well in order for them to really have a lot in common.
Someone is going to have to create or have a program to help organize and calculate this all, it won't be me. I will try to help as much as possible but I'm not a pro at either astrology or computers.

[juicey J.]

Here's another idea we should have a group of like 50+ twins and maybe even time twins (the horoscopes have to be almost identical for this)where we give a general reading and then give it to each twin seperatly and have them mark it and judge it on a scale for accuracy (marking specific passages for accuracy or lack thereof) and see if the twins give similar responses. It would be nice if even twins who are quite different else where give the same response to their general reading as this would give a case for basic natal astrology being accurate even if even just in general terms. Also, see if there is more similarity in said area between identical twins vs ferternal twins of the same gender vs those different gender vs time twins of the same gender vs those of different gender. .

[Mark]

One thing I would like to avoid is the focus that interpretation manuals often have on useless qualities. Things like hobbies might fall into that category. If I can know someone's hobbies and tell them about it, what good is it to anyone? Much of "modern astrology" has to do with things that can be predicted, but don't have much predictive value. Perhaps it's my psychological and philosophical persuasions speaking, but I would like to stick as close to useful data as possible. I would rather tell someone about conditions that conflict with their personal style of approach and so tell them how to adjust their style of approach. One should not adjust such things to individual circumstances. One should adjust one's approach to the Universe Itself. I want to help them make real progress, not just entertain them.

[juicey J.]

Yes but hobbies have to be accounted (on the personal questionaries more so then the readings) for because were looking for what they (twins and time twins) have in common. Yes, there are twins who have quite a bit of difference between them but my guess this often because of a different rising, different mc, or because there is lots of stress aspects between them. Also, if much of a general reading fits them and in similar ways (especially twins who little in common elsewhere) it will establish basic astrology works and if we can establish a astrological explanation why some twins and time twins personality/lives are quite different and strong statistical proof to back it up this will also be a victory for astrology. We are not talking about counseling here. Also, any reading should focus on what possible career, interests, and hobbies a person might have, as well as possible life pitfalls, but the key word is POSSIBLE, as often many placements have 2-5 main possible mainfestions. Astrology is often more possiblity not fate (unless certain warnings are not heeded).

[juicey J.]

I'm crossing my fingers that by next week I can get some of the people who I want interested in this, involved. Their involvement could be quite useful. I'm not promising anything. If I don't do anything to bring this about at least I released the idea into the universe.

[juicey J.]

I apperciate Mark for offering his help, it sounds like dr. farr is interested anyone else who wants to get involved I would apperciate it.

[FleetingDasein]

I've had the opportunity to connect with an astrological twin, and our lives were completely different, but deep down, we struggled with similar issues. I find astrological twins fascinating, so I'm very interested in conducting this type of research.

If you guys need help creating a survey, just pm the format, and I'll set it up. I think we should try to find some time twins (real or time twins) on the forum (at least 10 sets of twins) and conduct the survey.

Please keep me updated,
/FD

[Olivia]

Also, statistically test if there is any commonality between people with the same aspects (sun square jupiter for example) or aspect patterns (t-square for example). Of course dozens upon dozens will have to be tested and the birth dates would have to be checked (using 2 or more sources). Maybe such tests could be refined with certain factors being isolated to check for statistical commonality.

But it isn't going to work. There's a huge difference between a received square - in this case Aries to Cancer, and an irreceptive square - Libra to Capricorn.

Is it a day chart or a night chart?

Is either the Sun or Jupiter besieged? Which houses are they in, and which do they rule?

Are they in aspect to other planets?

And any number of other variables.

You could concentrate on something like determining temperament (Lilly or Bonatti style, perhaps?), as neuroscientists are now calling it 'seasonal biology but definitely not astrology' - only astrologers used some of the same formulas (the season you were born in counts heavily towards temperament and has done for many, many centuries - we're going back to Aristotelean philosophy here). But astrology does have the jump on neuroscience in that regard, as we also use moon phase, planets in or aspecting the ascendant, the chart almuten, etc., to describe temperament, which is both physiological, and for want of a better term - psychological.

You can look up the studies on neuroscience and temperament by birth season, so you can see where they've got with it.

That might prove fruitful. It's a reasonably standard measuring technique within astrology, and whilst it cuts fine enough to give definite results, it doesn't cut so fine as trying to sort out what an aspect in isolation means. And you've got the advantages that it's standardised, and something that science is looking into now.

The societal and especially corporate misuses possible - pretty much inevitable - if it's proved true are terrifying, but if you want to do this, that's probably as good a starting point as any.

[Mark]

All of those variables mentioned can be handled by collecting the specific date, time, and place of birth for every individual, so that nothing is studied in isolation. As long as we have the ability to see the whole chart of every person involved, we have the ability to draw astrological distinctions. It is definitely a good thing to consider, but it doesn't need to interfere with the collection of data. Also, I think those in power who would misuse astrology are already doing so. It is thus to their advantage that no one else gets to use it as well as they do. They don't have to make it illegal. They only have to make it a joke. That's why Rush Limbaugh has a job. Make something into a joke and people stop taking it seriously, even if it is crucially important!

[juicey J.]

If anyone thinks what Mark is speaking of is pure conspiracy theory with no facts or examples to back it up, YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR HISTORY!!!!!!!

[juicey J.]

But it isn't going to work. There's a huge difference between a received square - in this case Aries to Cancer, and an irreceptive square - Libra to Capricorn.

Is it a day chart or a night chart?

Is either the Sun or Jupiter besieged? Which houses are they in, and which do they rule?

Are they in aspect to other planets?

And any number of other variables.

You could concentrate on something like determining temperament (Lilly or Bonatti style, perhaps?), as neuroscientists are now calling it 'seasonal biology but definitely not astrology' - only astrologers used some of the same formulas (the season you were born in counts heavily towards temperament and has done for many, many centuries - we're going back to Aristotelean philosophy here). But astrology does have the jump on neuroscience in that regard, as we also use moon phase, planets in or aspecting the ascendant, the chart almuten, etc., to describe temperament, which is both physiological, and for want of a better term - psychological.

You can look up the studies on neuroscience and temperament by birth season, so you can see where they've got with it.

That might prove fruitful. It's a reasonably standard measuring technique within astrology, and whilst it cuts fine enough to give definite results, it doesn't cut so fine as trying to sort out what an aspect in isolation means. And you've got the advantages that it's standardised, and something that science is looking into now.

The societal and especially corporate misuses possible - pretty much inevitable - if it's proved true are terrifying, but if you want to do this, that's probably as good a starting point as any.

That whole bit tells me you don't know what isolating factors even is. :annoyed: I'm not saying said things don't have value but it also seems like your trying to force old astrology on reality instead of letting reality teach you the astrology. If a good number, say thousands of people with say a venus mars square over varies suveys have a particular career or even the same favorite food then we can assume said aspect has a statistical correlation with such. Were talking about statisical research here not old astrology or natal chart reading, yes I did meantion natal chart reading but such was a seperate part of this all.

[Olivia]

Are you versed in the actual scientific objections to astrology? This is part of a doctoral thesis that briefly outlines them. If you're going to play in that world you'll need a lot more background, but it's a good starting point:

http://www.astrozero.co.uk/astroscience/brock.htm

When you get there, download the PDF article.

[juicey J.]

Are you versed in the actual scientific objections to astrology? This is part of a doctoral thesis that briefly outlines them. If you're going to play in that world you'll need a lot more background, but it's a good starting point:

http://www.astrozero.co.uk/astroscience/brock.htm

When you get there, download the PDF article.

First off I disagree with a good number of their arguments. You can't test electional astrology? If people start a business during a time when the chart of such says its going to fail and it does and people start a business when the chart says its going to succeed or at least not fall flat on its nose and it does succeed and such happens over hundreds if not thousands of examples one can conclude electional astrology works. Also, lets get something straight here astrology isn't as above so below, astrology is as above so below, as below so above. This is a very important distinction to make. SaY for example one buys a car during the time the moon's last aspect is going to be a conjunction, oppostion, or square to saturn or the mc/ic is going to be afflicted by saturn with no applying aspect to a benefic and the moon's last applying aspect isn't one to a benefic, one can conclude said car will be more trouble then its worth and said person will have to get rid of it. Now, if said person bought the car at a different date and time does it magically transform the car into a perfectly okay car? OH COURSE NOT!!!!!!!!!! Its not a coincidence they bought a piece of junk car when the moon, planets, and angles suggested as much. Now, an interesting way to test this is take say 5 or more cars one knows before hand are in such bad shape they are going to break down and the costs are going to be so much the people who bought them are going to have to cut their loses, and see if its possible for them to buy said vechile at a time when the moon, planets, and angles don't suggest as much according to the basic rules of electional astrology.
Yes a person can mistake a chart which isn't there's as being there own, but this is due to a few factors 1. the chart has the planets and in most cases the right moon so half or over half of it will be accurate. 2. The person picks the control chart because it has things they would like to believe about themselves instead of the truth. Belive me if someone gave me a chart of someone born a totally different year and time of the year as me I would know immeditely none or most of it doesn't fit me, BECAUSE I'M OBJECTIVE. The problem then isn't astrology so much as its people being j@ck@SSES!!!!!! 3.The other problem is are they actually looking a specific chart desriptions which, taken into account the house postion of planets and the postion of chart rulers, planetary aspects, because yes overally general and vague descriptions are useless, these descriptions are useless not actual astrology.
Also, I have seen some of these so called tests which, disprove astrology, things like the majority of people in the military don't have fire sun or a majority of fire in their chart, therefore astrology as a whole can't be true. Also, it often doesn't matter if you find statistical correlations with astrology such as with the "mars affect" studies because they will simply use the "correlation doesn' mean causation" argument. Most skeptics with the exception of Dean and Smit don't know how astrology works or what it claims to do, so how they can test such IS WAY BEYOND ME. I love how they make perfectly objective and intelligent people who believe in astrology after getting a specific and accurate reading from an astrologer, question their own intelligence. No, astrology doesn't work at all your just gullible and stupid, that's all.

[Olivia]

Yelling at me isn't going to help. I'm an astrologer, remember?

But you seem to want to convince the scientific community of astrology's validity. And they hold very different standards to ours.

That's all.

[juicey J.]

I will say this, for all those out there who agree with me and those who are my detractors I welcome your comments as I created this thread because I think starting a dialogue about such things is important.

[juicey J.]

Yelling at me isn't going to help. I'm an astrologer, remember?

But you seem to want to convince the scientific community of astrology's validity. And they hold very different standards to ours.

That's all.

I wasn't yelling at you, I was voicing my thoughts and where and why I disagreed with the skeptics in passionate way. Said post was for everyone here and for whom ever it may concern not just you. Did I specificly state you personally anywhere in said post, your jumping to conclusions. Many so called skeptics so called standards are raise the bar arguments and straw man arguments. They can take their standards and shove them. I have also in the past seen a few of their so called test which, "de bunked" astrology and reasons as to why they thought it debunked astrology, and things I have flushed down the toilet had more value as they were based on straw man arguments and preconvied notions about astrology. Notice I said so-called skeptic as a good number of them seem to have their mind stubbornly made up about astrology, which, isn't actual skeptism. I firmly believe a person who doesn't have at least a bit of skeptism about astrology has not business practicing it. I want to show astrology is valid to the general population and to whoever in the scientific community isn't blinded by their predjuidce towards the subject. Scientists fear astrology because it goes against what they think is scientificly valid but is it sciences job to protect old notions about what is and isn't scientific or is it to make discoveries which, challenge and expand knowledge? Reading comments on skeptic sites such as Randi's, they think were a bunch of superstitious baffons incapable of critical thinking. ITS VERY DIFFICIULT TO REASON WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS THE MINDSET YOUR TOTALLY WRONG AND THEY ARE TOTALLY RIGHT.

[juicey J.]

I do agree with Dean when he talks about there is no way no knowing for absolute certain if said person started their business at a different date or time if it would have been any less or more successful. However, this is something about electional astrology which, can't be tested and it doesn't mean electional astology can't be statistically tested. Also, we must look at the natal charts of the people because if the mc or 2nd house or their rulers are afflicted it means they won't be too successful in starting and/or maintaing a successful a business no matter how good the electional astrology is. Also, make sure the transits and progression to said chart at the time don't give strong testimony against starting a business at said time. The problem is one is going to run into so many cases of mixed testimony its going to be a headache testing such.

[juicey J.]

Oh and their whole thing about not being able to explain how astrology works being a valid argument against it is totally bogus, because if something works it matters not if you can't explain it. Besides they don't know how or why gravity works the way it does but it still d@mn well works. Also, until recent histrory we had no clue about the genome or how heredity actually worked but it still worked long before we could explain how. This is the materialistic/anti-intellectual thinking carl payne tobey rightly denounced in his astrological course. Many of their reasoning isn't scientific but based on double standards and straw man arguments because they are often driven by anti-astrological/anti-superstitious post-enlightment dogma. In other words to a good number of them (not all mind you) astrology is superstitious garbage which, must be disposed of without question.
Also, I agree different houses systems and zodiac systems do confuse things but so far as far as I can tell each one works (at least more or less on average) in their own right often either revealing things the others don't or saying more or less the same things but in a different way.

[juicey J.]

One way to test to see which, houses system works or if more then one works is to have people give the location, date and time of a purchase (must be something of consequence like a car, boat, house) and see if the chart ruler or the moon is making an aspect to whatever the ruler of the second house in each house system happens to be. We will need hundreds to apply for this to get any statistically noticable results. Although I would like to get the twin and astro twin studies/data base going first.

[Mark]

I'm not sure that's a viable method of testing house systems. The big trouble is that the 6 or 7 most common house systems are very close to Placidus (barring the whole sign and equal house methods). Some vary by several degrees. Others vary by less than a degree in many circumstances. Some are even based on Placidus with only minor tweaks. It would take many, MANY charts to see even the smallest statistically useful trends. We could test Placidus against the whole sign and equal house methods, though. We could test that in the same manner as everything else, once the database has been compiled. The questionnaire is the step to work on first.

[juicey J.]

Well mark I have been juggling some ideas around for the questionaire. Maybe we can present short lists and determine which, formate from such will work best. Well the people I tried to contact didn't respond yet. I'm hoping to contact one more person. I don't feel comfortable meantioning who these people are but they are major players in this game. They might be embrassed slightly to hear anyone say this but its the total truth.

[juicey J.]

I should clairfy the large reason for this thread and wanting to do meantioned tests is to promote and prove a theory I have which, is there may be many twins and a few time twins but there are even fewer astro twins. In order to be an astro twin in my little theory all the planets and angles have to be in the same sign (if not the same decate, term or face) and the majority of aspects have to be smoother (conjunction, trine, sextile) aspects as opposed to stress or differniating aspects (such as inconjunts, squares, oppostions). Plus I want astrology to have a bigger statistical data base to go by. Granted twins and time twins won't be the only ones' I want in data base but they are an essential part of such.

[Mark]

You would need to do some serious database work, then. You know, there are a number of groups that have already accumulated rather large databases of their own, although they don't usually cooperate with each other as far as I know. Perhaps looking into the work already done by those groups would be a start? At least you would know what has already been done and what hasn't.

[juicey J.]

You see mark the reason for this thread and these tests/data base ideas is due to a thread on another site which, infuriated me intitled "Twin evidence shows astrology is bunk" I want to a counter data base and tests to be down which, will hopefully support my theory of "There are very few actual astro twins and the criteria is quite a bit higher to be one then simply being born the same day and time.

[juicey J.]

I strongly believe even if two people have all the same planets and angles (even in the same decate) but have almost as much if not more stress aspects then smooth aspects, there will be at least a handful if not more differences between them and I stronlgy believe this will be true even more so if there are a bunch of stress aspects with little to no smooth aspects. In fact this I think helps to explain why half the cases of twins and time twins being noticably different in life choices and life experiences (transits and progressions have 4-5 main possiblities and how they affect someone somewhat depends on their choices) and the other half might be explained by the one or more of the angles being in a different sign or a at least a different decate or term. Although if astrofaces is any indication they will probly still look similar at least if they are the same sex. Actuall astro twins (who i theorize fit my strict criteria) have many similarites in life choices and life experiences and there are documented cases of such (althought they are all togather few but I think my theory explains in large part why).

[Mark]

I forget who, but some old monk (perhaps Aquinas?) made an argument trying to debunk astrology using twins as examples. It's actually a good argument and I think the fact of the matter is that much of what makes for an human is up to free will more than astrology. The type of study you're talking about is just the thing to study that, but I would expect that you would find different manifestations of the same latent potential between twins. The mistake would be expecting the same manifestations. Speaking reasonably, births separated by several minutes are close enough to have the same astrological information in almost all cases. The only way to get deeper than that is to study them with things like degree-specific meanings (Sabian degrees, Enochian degrees, et cetera). You would need an established system of value-attribution that works with a one degree resolution. That would make for quite an interesting study, but a boat load of work.

[juicey J.]

Mark I truly believe people with the same charts sign and decante if not even dwad or sabian symbol will still be quite different if they have lots of stress aspects especially if there are little to no smooth aspects, dude this happens with people who have lots of stress apects with little to no postive aspects between them so why would twins be any different. Oh sure they might have some similarites but these similarites in the cases where the stress aspects far out way the smooth ones will only contribute to the overly differences. Fore example say two people have sun opposing mars (with no smooth aspects especially to benefics to counter act such), lets say the sun is the ruler of the second, said persons have in common their ego is tied more so then most to what they own and with the mars opposion they will fight anyone they know over such but since their sun also opposes the others mars exactly they will see the other as a threat to what they own, now just image this over all whole chart where philosphy and career interests are shown in general and with a ton of stress aspects with little to no smooth ones. Let me explain a little further say two people have mercury square mars in the same sign houes, decates, sabian symbols you name it, they might have both in common they like to debate and many of the same general things but since the others mercury squares the others mars they most certainly will find a few things they most certainly don't agree on in the least there by fulfilling the square fuction between their charts and debating the other,................ GET IT? There has already been document cases of twins and even time twins being strickly similar in taste, choices and even life experiences and until they come up with another explantion and commonality the time twins have other then astro factors they haven't made a case against astrology. But let me examplain it to you this way, the cases (even at a handful or so) of time twins having strickly similar life experiences (such as getting a job on or quite near the same day, married, child born, death, ect....) are fresh apples (as far as we know) for astrology and the cases where such doesn't happen (supposedly unless my theories are proven which, will take a bit of work) are rotten apples (in terms of astrology), now even if the rotten apples outway the fresh ones does this make the fresh apples not fresh any more? Do you burn down a whole d@mned apple orchird of thousands upon thousands of apples before seeing if there any apples worth saving even after one finds hundress to thousands of bad apples? In other words yes statistics are a big part of this but to show astrology works from a phenomlogyical stand point is probly more imporant and a astro twins who are strickingly similar (even at a handful of cases or so) are strong evidence for such.

[Mark]

I suppose it depends on what you mean when you say "astrology." Twins who are born a few minutes apart are enough of an example to say that sharing planets in signs, planets in houses, and houses in signs is not similar enough to get the same manifestations. I think that is what the argument against astrology was trying to prove. If that's the kind of reading that comes to mind when someone says "astrology," then that concept of astrology may be good enough to talk about latent potentials, but not about manifestations. The only way to deepen the meaning of "astrology" is to increase the resolution and find the astrological differences between the two individuals to explain the differences in observed manifestation. This means you would need things like degree-specific meanings to read past the generalities of "planets in signs" and so forth.

Time-twins would be a purer way of looking at commonalities between astrologically similar people, especially if the two people being compared never knew each other. That does make them frightfully difficult to find, though. I have no idea how many data sets (hundreds or thousands) you would have to collect before you found your first, acceptable time-twin pair. It seems that the internet would almost certainly be necessary for that data collection job. Let me know if you ever come up with the first draft of that questionnaire and I'll refine it with you.

[juicey J.]

There are said to be many twins (including indentical twins) who are quite different, in fact I know one set which, is quite different. I think my theory is a good part the reason why (also add to my theory they have to be the same sex to be really similar) if we can establish through my theory and basic astrology why some if not many twins even identical twins can be quite different in life choices and experiences and why and how some twins are the same through my theory and astrology, ASTROLOGY WILL OWN!!!!!!!! (this will take lots of research) Also, I want to create a general data base for further astro research and combining other astro data bases with such will be a help.

[juicey J.]

Actually let me modify in part some of what I have previously said. I said before stress aspects especially if they far out weighed postive aspects (even with angles in the same sign if not same decate) in twins and time twins charts they would cause a great amount of differences and I still think this in general but its a bit more complex then this. The aspect patterns which, I think show commonality (keep in mind this isn't always the same as getting along) are generally speaking conjunction, trine, and oppostion (unless it to a malefic and/or their are lots of them but even then in general such will show more commonality on average then the uncommon aspects) due to the fact the oppostion is the same quality and the elements are complimentary in relationship (although they can compromise the other which, is where the conflict comes at times) the aspects which, are connected to being relatively uncommon are the square, sextile (sure they can and more often then not get along but they are of a different element and quality) as from exprience with a small number people whose charts make mostly sextiles to my own there is getting along but the ambiguity of "we get along but have little if anything altogather in common" and finally the inconjunct (like the sextile except the elements aren't complimentary and don't mix well). I should note sextiles show more commonality then squares because although squares are the same quality (and because of such share bit of commonality) they aren't of complimentary elemental relationship like the sextile is, and sextiles show less commonality then the oppostion but get along better as there isn't the balancing and counter balancing of force. Elemental relationship is basically the name of the game here.

[juicey J.]

Well I have a two fold plan one is to make a multi part survey (with the help of Mark) which, will ask general personality/behavior questions, job experience questions, political/religious view questions, family and relationship related questions (and will ask if they can give any major dates in these events) (this will vary for other countries so we will need much help here). This survey will have these different sections because we want a conclusive enough survey to pull data from. The one section I would like to have on this survey is medical but people are often uptight and private about such matters.

We will have teams look at any similarity between the survey questions and the charts or if there are any positive aspects between people who have things in common (as general synastry theory would seem to suggest). Of course another major theory we will be testing is my theory of the reason why some twins (even identical ones) are different is because they have a good handful or so of stress aspects in the chart and therefore in their synastry/composite and even more so if the ratio of negative aspects out weighs the ratio of positive aspects (well my theory on aspects is a bit more complex as you will see if you look to some of my previous posts). Teams will look at each section of the surveys and charts and answers and will try to test one or two things at a time.
I want a data base of as many people as possible but one of identical and fraternal twins, and mayebe astro twins, to use as control groups.
I'm hoping to get twin sites/conventions involved and maybe a university or two (which, will be trickey) I also want to create an inviting web site (with mark or anyone who wishes to help) where people go to give their birth info and fill out the survey. People will be required to fill out all sections of the survey in one sitting and twins most also have their twin fill out the same survey with in 24 hours or less of them.
I thank Mark for his willingness help and people like farr for their encouragement/support. isismagdalenne has offered their help and I appreciated it but so far mark has been having the most active dialogue with me.

[juicey J.]

Okay, another thing which, should be noted with each chart is the star aligments not just by longitude as given by Ptolemy but also by paran (stars rise and set at different degrees of the zodiac at various locations). The parans (which, are half or less degree orb alignment but conjunction or opposition) especially, as these do much to differentiate people, for example someone born in new york around the same date and time as me has quite a similar chart but the parans star alignments are quite different. I won't go into detail but an example of the parans at work is the chart of the attack on Pearl Harbor where the rising, mc, sun, moon, and mercury are all aligned with stars said by the ancients to be connected to violence, destruction, treachery, death, and since such stars only rose or set at those degrees near said location it makes things even more exact. Also, Brady didn't invent the idea of parans like many erroneously think, they are actually older then the Ptolemy inspired way of simply aligning a planet/angle (Brady briefly mentions such in her book but people seem to totally miss this) with a star by tropical longitude alignment. We'll limit the stars to those found in Robson's book, there quite a few more but there's really no point.

[Caprising]

I can understand you wanting to verify that astrology works by doing some research Juicy, but there are a few problems that you will have to factor in to the results. Transits and progressions show us how someone (through their natal chart) changes as they grow older, so this will have to be taken into account when looking for planetary aspects that show a particular personality trait, and which aspects will you use as there are a multitude of them to get through. There are around 1500 basic planetary combinations to consider, and thats just in the natal chart, add in different house systems, fixed stars, and a few other parts and lots, not to mention decanents/duads etc. and I think that you will find it's very easy to get "lost" in the hoards of information! I'm not trying to put you off doing this, just pointing out that it is going to be very difficult to put together a system that works! Probably the first hurdle to get over will be birth times, experience has shown me that birthtimes given from someones mothers memory are usually inaccurate, sometimes by a minute or 2, but more often by an hour or more, even recorded hospital times are usually rounded to the nearest five minutes. You can usually get around this by matching the natives life events to progressions and transits to the m/c and ascendant, which is called rectifycation of the chart. This is easy to do in some charts, and virtually impossible in others (for me at least)! A good starting point for you would be learning how to rectify charts and also learning how progressions and transits work, then you would be starting of from a solid information base, otherwise you will probably find yourself going around in circles like most of us do for the first few years of study, because there is a lot of mis-information floating around in cyberspace!

[SniperBomber328]

---------------------

[juicey J.]

Capricorn rising its called isolating data and seeing if it has any significant statistical info. If astrology's stimuli can't be show to have any statistical significance when isolated then there really is no point to astrology now is there? Yes if we have to we'll look at progressions to see if any relates to any thing other things don't seem to correlate with. One or two things at a time.

[juicey J.]

Capricorn rising its called isolating data and seeing if it has any significant statistical info. If astrology's stimuli can't be show to have any statistical significance when isolated then there really is no point to astrology now is there? Yes if we have to we'll look at progressions to see if any relates to any thing other things don't seem to correlate with.

Sniperbomber I'm merely proposing the idea here and going through the preliminary steps with Mark. If I can't get more people involved or a big institution such as the NCGR (who I have tried to contact and have gotten the attention of one of its members) or Kepler College of Astrology there really isn't any point. Also, putting something on this site isn't a bad idea but we need large data samples and my previous ideas I think are good ways of doing this. I would like to get other institutions and Universities involved but this is a bit of problem due to the sigma against astrology. Problem is like Capricorn rising made obvious, we need lots of bean counters.

Also, we can separate the people who answered certain questions and sections differently and see what the synastry looks like between them. I would imagine lots of stress aspects and people who really answered the questions differrently I would imagine have lots of stress aspects with little to no positive one's between them. Also, we'll be looking at not just planetary aspects but aspects between the planets and angles of the charts. Also, the more different their charts are would correlate with answering certain questions differently. I would imagine the more different the charts are and the more the stress aspects outweighed the positive one's (my theory on such matters is a bit more complex if you look above) between them, the more they will answer the overall survey differently. The opposite (at least in theory) of course being true if the charts have lots of similarities and positive aspects. What I'm hoping for is situations like this, say a good number of surveys where people answered lots of things in common but one or two sections are quite if not totally different as such can be isolated from the rest.
I also want to see how much statistical info we can get through using basic planetary aspects (or even progressed aspects) as this will show astrology no matter what you use (tropical or sidereal) is of significance due to the fact the basic planetary aspects are the same in both systems.

[Caprising]

Capricorn rising its called isolating data and seeing if it has any significant statistical info. If astrology's stimuli can't be show to have any statistical significance when isolated then there really is no point to astrology now is there? Yes if we have to we'll look at progressions to see if any relates to any thing other things don't seem to correlate with.

Sniperbomber I'm merely proposing the idea here and going through the preliminary steps with Mark. If I can't get more people involved or a big institution such as the NCGR (who I have tried to contact and have gotten the attention of one of its members) or Kepler College of Astrology there really isn't any point. Also, putting something on this site isn't a bad idea but we need large data samples and my previous ideas I think are good ways of doing this. I would like to get other institutions and Universities involved but this is a bit of problem due to the sigma against astrology. Problem is like Capricorn rising made obvious, we need lots of bean counters.

Also, we can separate the people who answered certain questions and sections differently and see what the synastry looks like between them. I would imagine lots of stress aspects and people who really answered the questions differrently I would imagine have lots of stress aspects with little to no positive one's between them. Also, we'll be looking at not just planetary aspects but aspects between the planets and angles of the charts. Also, the more different their charts are would correlate with answering certain questions differently. I would imagine the more different the charts are and the more the stress aspects outweighed the positive one's (my theory on such matters is a bit more complex if you look above) between them, the more they will answer the overall survey differently. The opposite (at least in theory) of course being true if the charts have lots of similarities and positive aspects. What I'm hoping for is situations like this, say a good number of surveys where people answered lots of things in common but one or two sections are quite if not totally different as such can be isolated from the rest.
I also want to see how much statistical info we can get through using basic planetary aspects (or even progressed aspects) as this will show astrology no matter what you use (tropical or sidereal) is of significance due to the fact the basic planetary aspects are the same in both systems.
I have a book called "The astrology file" written by Gunter Sachs, which is statistical data on sun signs and what similarities people of the same sun sign share, for instance Leo is statistically more likely to divorce than the other sun signs, and Taureans have more car crashes than the others! It's a great read, and is
'scientific proof" that when you are born will affect how your life plays out.

[juicey J.]

I want to do similar research as sachs but I want to look at more chart factors then just sun signs. Also, there is few research out there looking at terms, faces, and dwads and even less using parans and this is a mistake. Someone born in London the same day and around the same time has quite the similar chart as me but the terms and dwads of their rising and mc are different from me and their paran star aligments are different from me. Also, once again I think its a ratio of common chart factors vs snyastry which, determines how much two people have in common which, I once again think helps in good if not large part to explain why twins even identical twins with identical charts can be quite different. Also, twin and time twin research shows astrology isn't fate and this is something which, should be celebrated by amateur and professional astrologers. If astrology was absolute fate I would have nothing to do with it.

[spock]

One thing I would like to avoid is the focus that interpretation manuals often have on useless qualities. Things like hobbies might fall into that category. If I can know someone's hobbies and tell them about it, what good is it to anyone? Much of "modern astrology" has to do with things that can be predicted, but don't have much predictive value. Perhaps it's my psychological and philosophical persuasions speaking, but I would like to stick as close to useful data as possible. I would rather tell someone about conditions that conflict with their personal style of approach and so tell them how to adjust their style of approach. One should not adjust such things to individual circumstances. One should adjust one's approach to the Universe Itself. I want to help them make real progress, not just entertain them.
I prefer the former, too, but valid insights work best in either case and it's not clear that existing astrology provides them. Instead, via a multiplicity of factors, slippery and diffuse meanings, and characteristically loose logic (e.g. such as geo Mars square helio Venus with a straight face), in a word astrological symbolism (okay, two words), astrology can't help appearing to its adherents to work whether or not it actually does. Telling someone what their hobbies are, if you could (which I doubt), might not be useful, but it would be nice to be able to say something that's "true" if for no other reason than to increase our knowledge. Is there some kind of order here than can be or already has been discovered? I suggest that if you study enough biographies you will see that people develop new or modify old hobbies and enthusiasms at three-year intervals, which is to say at Jupiterian intervals. And that, plus insights that can be gleaned from Piaget and from the towering Russian cognitive development psychologist L.S. Vygotsky, can tell us something about the psyche and about the three-year motivational pulse that is one part of it.

[juicey J.]

Mark and Spock Hobbies/interests will D@mn well be included in this. We are looking for what people have in common. Each section will not be over long as its quality not quantity.

[Fourpillars]

Hi all,

Just reading this topic.

I once heard a very good reason why twins are not the best materials to study or test astrology.
At some age, many (if not most) twins become tired of being so similar, and want to differentiate themselves from the other twin. So they start doing the opposite of what their sibling is doing, may even develop an almost opposite character, as 'a reaction' to the other. Over time this can lead to very big differences. In Chinese speak: twins tend to develop into a Yin and a Yang version.
I would only use twins as study material if they didn't grow up together.

I think a test of astrology should be kept simple and try to use objective data.
For example one could collect birth data, and ask the person for some key dates and facts in their lives. e.g.: marriage date( if any), first child, death of father or mother, profession and carreer history, dates of major accidents..

With enough such samples you are then ready to test astrology.
Give willing astrologers the birth date (but without time information) and the corresponding key facts list.
The task is to determine the probably birth time, not to the minute, but in two hour categories (0 - 1:59 am, 2:00 - 3:59 am, and so on..).

The normal expectation will be to get 1 in 12 correct just by chance.
So if the average astrologer does better than that it is evidence that astrology works.
You can also ask the participants to state which methods they use. Then we would also get some indication which techniques are better (at least for this excercise)

The advantage of this test is that you don't need any control group. Because if a test works out then immediately the question becomes if the control group was free of any bias, which is always difficult to (dis)prove.

[juicey J.]

Twins who grew up togather will most certainly be used for this test. Twins might try to be different from each other but twins won't be truly different unless the snastry between them suggests strongly. They might be different on superficial things like hobbies but one twin isn't going to for the death penality just because the other's against it (unless their is something in the synastry to suggest as much). The point is its a ratio of similarity of chart and synastry between two chats and I would venture to guess overall by comparison twins with really good synastry between them have more in common overall then anyone else. Twins are a vital point of my theory and this research and twins who grew up together are about the only one's one can find. Nope twins are being used in this study. There are also twins who have no problem being mostly like the other and fooling people and then their are twins who wanted to be so different from the other its not funny, This in theory is often if not almost always found in the synastry.

[juicey J.]

Also, if twins were raised togrther or not will be used as a variable.

[Fourpillars]

Also, if twins were raised togrther or not will be used as a variable.

That's a good idea.

I think the aim to be different exists among most siblings, but is somewhat stronger among twins.
How that pans out remains to be seen.
It is true that many twins don't mind being similar. The question becomes : how many? Because that can mask results.
If half of the twins try to be deliberately different, and the other half enjoys being very similar, then what will that do to the average result we get from the test?

It is good to consider these things before the test gets conducted.

[juicey J.]

There is all kinds of primlinary steps we have to go through yet before the fun begins. I have about 2 or 3 more sections of the survey I have to finish. Then we have to edit and flesh out the survey. Then we have to design a web site at least someone will be inticted to go to (and I do have a few ideas) and we have to scout twin sites/conventions to find a date base of twins (twins most certainly won't be the only part of the survey but will be a major variable) and invite them to the site and invite them to take the survey. There will be a seperate survey section for twins and they will have to answer if they are an indentical or fertial twin and if they were raised with the other twin or not and the other twin will have to fill out the survey within 24 hours of the other. I'm hoping to find a handful of people here and maybe elsewhere to help to the bean counting because this is where will have our work cut out for us.

[juicey J.]

Also, once again many a twin being quite different is in no way a threat to this research, and if anyone has been paying attention to a d@mn thing if said they would know I'm actually banking on it.

[juicey J.]

I just gave my partner mark the other part of the survey. I have one or two more sections to finish then we have to edit said survey and after we need to create a website and we have to create a system of storing and organizing chart info (which, could be fairly challenging). I don't know if this will get off the ground any time soon or if we will get the people needed to do all the bean sorting and counting but I would least like to try to get through the preliminary steps. Oh I'm quite serious about this folks.

Mark or anyone else who has ideas can submit them to me for consideration.

[juicey J.]

Okay it appears a few if not many of you are confused about one of the main concepts of this survey/test idea so here it goes again..........One of the main things this test plans on doing is testing synastry to a degree its never been tested before (if we can get a large enough amount of samples). This test will be on general interests and personality characteristics as well as life experiences (such as family and relationship, job/career issues), religious and political view points and view points on hot button issues as well as the relative level of involvement in such areas. Those tests where the scores are even 70+ let alone 90+ similar will be especially compared and contrasted for what the synastry looks like between them as well as what planetary positions they have the same and those tests where there is a great deal of dissimilarity will be closely examined synastry wise. Sure twins might have different taste in color or fashion but I don't think a twin is going to be an atheist just to simply be different from the other twin and the synastry will often if not almost always reflect this major difference in view. Also, it might be for two people to be quite a lot a like they have to have not only the same planets in the same sign but planet a in the same sign as the others planet c (if not exact conjunction) and/or mostly trines, (keep in mind the sextile although harmonious is quite different being a different element and quality and the other aspects are nearly if not more different). The idea once again people is one born with lots of squares, inconjuctions, oppositions, and even sextiles to someone born the same day as them might have quite a bit more in common with someone born a different day, year, and time whose chart makes lots of conjunctions, and trines, and sextiles (although too many of these could create a fair amount of difference) to theirs. The idea is reason why twins and astro twins can be so radically different from each other is reflected to a certain if not large degree by the synastry. I'm hoping by next year if not in the later part of this year to have this test up and going. The idea all or even most twins and time twins are exactly alike is not something this test is going to based on as such is a total myth. There is also more then a few twins if not astro twins out there with similar tastes, characteristics and/or view points and this is might well often be reflected in the synastry. Also, we are going to look at other factors like gender as two people even with harmonious and similar charts but who are of different genders are going to have at least some minor differences. Also, we are going look to surveys where even with major amount of similarity between them but with a fair number of differences in on section and carefully examine. For example twins with almost exactly the same chart but with lots of stress aspects to the 7th house ruler and/or the ruler aren't going to make the same chooses relationship wise and because of such have different experiences in such areas where as those twins with more harmonious aspects to the 7th house and its ruler will make many similar choices and have similar (if not at times frighteningly similar such as getting married the same day) experiences, well okay there might be some similarities with say squares such as two people who both have mars in square to the the 7th and/or its ruler both having the general trait of getting involved in one or more highly viotale if not overtly violent relationships. Also, we are going to look at questions about basic mannerisms/personality such as do those people who answer yes to being concerned with being neat and tidy have similar astro traits such as a virgo rising and/or say mercury in major aspect to saturn? Also, once again keep in mind this test will be survey as many different people as possible not just twins but twins and all the various types of them will be major control/test groups.

[juicey J.]

Other then statistically comparing basic personality, life experiences and view points and seeing what planetary positions and alignments are common an even more affective and scientific way would be medical issues trouble is people are often quite private about such issues.

[juicey J.]

Oh and keep in mind in theory certain stress aspects might create a certain amount of commonality but said commonality will have its fair share of differences to go along with it such as twins with the 5th house lord square to mars might both be passionate about sports/games but good luck getting them to agree on what game to play or which sports event to watch on tv

[Fourpillars]

Oh and keep in mind in theory certain stress aspects might create a certain amount of commonality but said commonality will have its fair share of differences to go along with it such as twins with the 5th house lord square to mars might both be passionate about sports/games but good luck getting them to agree on what game to play or which sports event to watch on tv

But doesn't that invalidate this kind of test even before it starts?
If "commonality" typically comes with its "fair share of differences", then how is the test going to differentiate between it?

It will become very fishy-washy
If we find commonality then we classify it as a "hit"
And if we find differences then we can say it belongs to the "fair share of differences" that come with commonality, and also classify it as a "hit"
Then how are we going to have misses?

A good test needs to specify clearly what it will take for the test to be considered failed.

This is going to be a test that involves a lot of work. And it is probably going to be easily rejected whatever 'results' it gives.
Skeptics will always wonder why such a complicated test is being made, when much simpler tests can be set up that require a lot less work.
Why not try to pick the low hanging fruit first?

[juicey J.]

But doesn't that invalidate this kind of test even before it starts?
If "commonality" typically comes with its "fair share of differences", then how is the test going to differentiate between it?

It will become very fishy-washy
If we find commonality then we classify it as a "hit"
And if we find differences then we can say it belongs to the "fair share of differences" that come with commonality, and also classify it as a "hit"
Then how are we going to have misses?

A good test needs to specify clearly what it will take for the test to be considered failed.

This is going to be a test that involves a lot of work. And it is probably going to be easily rejected whatever 'results' it gives.
Skeptics will always wonder why such a complicated test is being made, when much simpler tests can be set up that require a lot less work.
Why not try to pick the low hanging fruit first?

Of course the test will be specific that's the point what do the two people have in common and what do they not have in common and we are going to consider other factors such as are fraternal vs indentical twins. For example two people might have totally different political views but they might both be passionate about politics (for example they might both be involved in campaigns for the politicians they support). WE ARE GOING TO DISTICT IT AND FIND WHICH, THINGS PEOPLE HAVE IN COMMON AND SEE IF THERE IS ANY SET OF ASTRO FACTORS WHICH STATISTICALLY CORELATE WITH SUCH!!!!!!!!!!!! Granted we have to find lots of examples which, will be hard before the skeptics even consider it. THE POINT IS TWINS BEING DIFFERENT DOEST DISPROVE ASTROLOGY BUT MIGHT ACTUALLY PROVE SYNASTRY THEORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This isn't for the d@mn skeptics its for astrology because to understand the test you would have to take the time to learn basic astro and synastry theory and the skeptics not willing to do such can suck a fat one for all I care.

[juicey J.]

Also, I plan on going through everything with a fine tooth comb (don't have enough people to help me as of yet) and plan on using control groups to compare the results against and plan on testing things like how often does a particular planetary configuration occur to judge its statistical strength with the rest of the findings of the test (don't have enough help here either but I hope I will get it) I'm not some moron!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fourpillars lets get one thing straight I plan on going through with this and THERE ISN"T A D@MN THING YOU CAN SAY TO STOP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, congratualtions on not listening to a D@MN THING I SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I said some (KEY WORD I DON"T HAVE TO SPELL AND POINT KEY WORDS FOR YOU EVERY STINKING TIME DO I?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) commonalities would cause differences not all commonalities such as if two twins have configurations which, make them argumentative then they would have these squares and oppositions (in theory these are the aspects we would expect and likely to mars) to each others charts and would be argumentative towards each other, and this is a type of commonality which, would create differences but if two twins have the same political view points and passion about them then this is a commonality where no noticeable differences will be seen (least not in this area of the test). If I give the premise to both astrologers and skeptics of twins even identical one's can be worlds apart in view points and there for life choices (altering the exact way the tranists and progressions affect them) and this is based on the synastry between them, both groups would say "But doesn't the fact they have the same chart mean they have commonalities?" why yes it does but if one commonality is being passionate about something but having a difference of opinion about it (which, the synastry at least in theory on average will show) then said commonality will be one of conflict (ONCE AGAIN NOT ALL "COMMONALITIES" ARE LIKE THIS AND I WRITE THIS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY I HAVE TO SPELL EVERYTHING OUT) These differences could be everything from one's opinons about sports, music, to politics to who to date. Also, keep in mind in theory people on average whose charts are different and also have really weak synstry (loaded with inconjucts, squares, and oppositions) will at least in theory on average show the least amount of commonality on the test. Also, we are going to compare and contrast the planetary configurations and synastry of every one in the test not just the twins is just twins have similar to exactly the same chart and can be used as test groups for all this.

[juicey J.]

you for pillars, "DOESN'T"T THAT INVALIDATE THE TEST?"

You haven't even seen the test/ final product which, I'm giving only a general overview of and its going to be far more specific and complex. Just ask mark who is helping me with the planning stages.

Thanks for the support mr. positivity!!!!!!!!!!! I would be nice if you could make an actually contribution like mark instead of all your d@mn negativity.

I have nothing personally against you but your really, really, really, really annoyed me.

[juicey J.]

There are varying degrees of similarity and differences people. Let me explain it through an example (examples and analogies are fun). Say you have two twins who have lots of squares and oppositions to mars both twins have in common being aggressive but they also have in common being aggressive towards each other, (this is an example of a commonality which, creates conflict or difference and note not all commonalities have this trait) now lets say they are fighting (fist fight) and mean while a person whose chart mostly quincuxs (someone who is by comparison even more different then they are from the other) theirs is watching, and writing down what they are observing "I was having a nice cup of coffee well observing the behavior of the two alpha male primates as they fought for dominance. Their strange animal like behavior I found strangely fascinating".

[juicey J.]

Once again the theory is this, twins who have mostly conjuncts (or planet a in the same sign as planet b) and/or trines will at least on average answer the overall survey at a high level of similarity where as twins with more squares, oppositions, and quincunxs (twins who have mostly inconjuncts will in theory show even more differences then those with squares and oppositions) will answer the survey quite differently from the other and person's who have even more squares, oppositions, and inconjuncts to their charts will answer the survey at an even less degree of commonality. Also, if we can get enough samples will be using this to isolate astro factors and see if certain astro factors have an statistical correlation with certain personality/behavior charts as well as certain view points and life experiences. The sextile being of a different quality and element but still being relatively kind is what is going to create some confusion and it will be interesting to observe how twins with lots sextiles between them answer the survey.

[juicey J.]

Another way of putting it is certain (key word) differences have a degree of commonality. for example two people with lots of oppositions will have in common being directly at odds (opposing signs look at the exact same space, object, idea from opposing sides) over the same issues think of two people being key note speakers at different political ralleys with ideas directly opposed to the other. Inconjuncts by comparison are even more different then oppositions and even squares (whose conflicts are based on misunderstandings where as oppostions who have more in common have conflicts based more on being directly opposed to the other) and people with lots of inconjuncts between their charts in theory might only have in common thinking of the other "they must have gotten off some space ship to even remotely care about the things they do" When trying to thinking of an analogy to understand how comparatively different inconjuncts are from the other aspects think of the most bad@ss ultimate fighter then think of a quite none showy tailor who has no interest in sports and who is rarely if ever assertive or competitive. Sextiles I would argue are not much better then the inconjunct since they are of different quality and element (comparatively more compatible elements then the square or inconjunct) and yes the sextile is arguably almost tied with the trine on average for getting along but getting along and having things in common aren't always the same thing.

[juicey J.]

People I have in a few handful or so of cases checked the synastry between myself and my friends and a few I have exchanged more then a few pleasantry's with and sure enough 8.5+ times out of 10 the basic to more advanced synastry between our charts suggested we would make something of a connection and get along. I'm obviously not the only one to make such observations. Rather astrology or more specifically synsatry works at a statistically significant levels remains to be truly demonstrated (although a few tests have shown at least on some levels it might) but it would appear in my limited observation and experience as well as many others it does. I personally wish this wasn't true because I resent the fact the planets might well do much to help to decide rather a person likes me and if I like them back (but rather I like the idea or not has nothing to do with if it has any truth to it); I would rather have it be more "purely" my or their choice. This is the real reason many hate the idea of astro because they would like to think they have more control then what they actually have.

[juicey J.]

Also, much attention has been given to what chart factors people of the same profession or what have you have which, is important to look at but what does the synastry of person's who have anything in common look like, do certain syastry factors show up for certain commonalities at any statistical significant rates? I think synsatry adds a whole level of potentially statistically significant data which, really hasn't been looked at on the scale it should. The survey is almost complete the hard part is going to be getting a system where the data can be stored and organized going as there is no point in giving out the survey if we can't significantly store and organize the data.

[Fourpillars]

Thanks for the support mr. positivity!!!!!!!!!!! I would be nice if you could make an actually contribution like mark instead of all your d@mn negativity.

I have nothing personally against you but your really, really, really, really annoyed me.

Relax, man.
Asking the obvious questions that come up based on reading your comments is also a contribution.
If 'commonality' tends to come with certain 'differences', then you will need to decide on an unambiguous way how to differentiate between the two. Otherwise the 'results' will only reflect the subjective beliefs of the testers.

Nobody stops you from doing any test you want. But a proper test has at least 2 elements:
1) clearly state the hypothesis that is being tested, and how the test will be conducted. This includes answering to objections that are brought to the method, so there is no point in being annoyed about questions.
2) make clear in advance what is required for the test to be considered a success, and what will constitute a failure. This depends on the particular test design.

Without this it is not a test. Then it is only a kind of data gathering.

[juicey J.]

I really have to spell everything out for you don't I?...............The question is do twins even one's who are seemingly quite different have any commonality at all (which, is why the test will have just about every category under the sun from relationships, to political opinions, involvement, opinons of hot button issues, general temperament, career, and personality questions, basic interest questions, but with in reason as this is quality not quantity) Also, we plan on separating the groups into identical twins and fraternal twins and into fraternal twins same sex and fraternal twins different sex, we plan on using these groups as control groups and see if those twins who are quite different from the other have (at least on average) a high concentration of stress aspects in their synastry (especially if more stress aspects then easy aspects indicates high levels of differences but at the same time see if they have even a remote amount of similarity which, can be statistically correlated to what astro factors they share). Of course we also plan to see if twins with a higher level of positive aspects with little to no stress one's have more in common when compared to twins who don't have such aspects (although the twins with the stress aspects might have one or two things in common at least on some of their answers on the general temperament/personality part of the survey the twins with the positive aspects didn't have in common such as its easy to forget if two twins are arguing and debating all the time with one another they both have in common THEY BOTH OFTEN ARGUE AND DEBATE!!!!!!!!). Also, I think sextiles will be a difficult since they get along but have little in common in comparison to the other aspects.Then we plan on taking the surveys and seeing which, questions were answered the same (or close to as same as some are a "answer as best you can between 1-5") and see what astro factors they have in common (oh and I plan on looking for anything and everything as a potential indicator such, what sign each planet is in, also what degrees of a sign the planets are in, to star alignments longitude as well as paran alignment, to the nodes, to every major aspect you can think of, to things such as mercury rises before Jupiter and is approaching the north node).
Also, if we can get enough data we plan on also seeing if commonality isn't just found in having something similar but based on the synastry such as this planet quincux this angle or this planet trine the other's moon often leads to them agreeing with this and this (I also, plan to test rulership theory by seeing what houses the signs rule and see if this plays any statistical significance as a person who has lots of stress aspects in their chart (and therefore to those born the same day and even time or place) might have more in common by comparison with someone born a different day but with more positive aspects to their chart. I also plan on using whole sign and placidus and compare and contrast and see if any gives statistically higher results then the other. We also are going to ask if they can give the dates and times for significant events such as marriage, the birth a child, if and when their family made a major move, when they were served divorce papers, if they are able to remember such dates.
Also, in theory at least, twins with mostly positive aspects (mostly conjuct, same sign, or trine as I predict the sextile is going to be trick being its positive but its between signs of both different quality and element and many between people could make them overall comparatively different.) and little to no stress one's will answers most of the survey the same where as twins with lots of stress aspects not so much, people who are not twins with mostly postive aspects (with the possible exception of sextiles at least too many of them) will have more in common then twins with mostly stress aspects, and people who are not twins (genetic or time) will with lots of stress aspects will answer on average the questions even more differently then the previously mentioned groups. We also plan for the over all test (when are cross referencing surveys and charts other then twins) using gender control groups, and age range control groups to show astro factors can work at statistical average to even significant rate despite other factors and of course to throw out astro on sections of the test where other factors then astro seem to have a noticeably higher statistical rate and astro even after dozens of such factors are checked has little to none. I need bean counters as there is going to be lots of organizing and bean separating and counting. Mark and I are still working on editing and adding to the survey (although the main part is pretty much done) and will show the final product when we are done.

[Fourpillars]

I really have to spell everything out for you don't I?...............

Indeed. If you want to make a test that can be taken serious, then you have to spell everything out in detail, not just for me but for everybody you want to participate or read about your test.

More things you can specify in a protocol, in advance, more meaningful the test can become.
This establishes two things:
1) it takes away subjectivity in interpreting the results.
2) it makes it possible for others to repeat the test, and see if they can verify your results (if any).


Of course we also plan to see if twins with a higher level of positive aspects with little to no stress one's have more in common when compared to twins who don't have such aspects (although the twins with the stress aspects might have one or two things in common at least on some of their answers on the general temperament/personality part of the survey the twins with the positive aspects didn't have in common such as its easy to forget if two twins are arguing and debating all the time with one another they both have in common THEY BOTH OFTEN ARGUE AND DEBATE!!!!!!!!).

That's not necessarily the case. One twin brother may be very argumentative with everybody, the other one may be rather silent. The argumentative brother often draws his twin into argument and debate. The non-argumentative brother will probably pull out of the debates first, still he may answer to your question that he argues with his brother OFTEN.
It always takes two to argue, but that doesn't imply that both are argumentative. Only one may be.
One of the other problems here is that 'often' is a very subjective term. What is considered often? It differs from person to person.

That's the kind of problems that come up with personal questionaires.

***

One thing I notice from your comments is too much explanation for results that have not happened yet. No need for reasons and explanations how commonality may be masked behind apparent differences. That's something the formulation of the questions should take care of. They have to be asked in such a way that the need or possibility for subjective interpretation is removed amap.

All that is needed for a test is clear questions, and then answers that are given are either the same or they are different.
Then it can be verified objectively if these result have any correlation with the astrological factors you are testing for.
And then you don't need a lot of bean counters. Setting up a spreadsheet will do.

[juicey J.]

First off I know there are cases where on brother might be argumentive and the other rather shy in fact I know of way more extreme differences between twins both identical and fraternal who had exactly the same rising and mc signs.Note I often said on average and in theory in said post and don't claim any of this to be fact or to be absolute in any way. Of course the test has to be able to be repeated by others, it has to be peer reviewed I would have to be the biggest moron on the planet not to know that. Also, one can only set up basic guidelines for such a test (granted they have to be as exacting as humanily possible) as the stats and the data (not what you want) decides much of the direction of things. Things could go in many directions I wasn't expecting and if I can't adjust my game plan to such I and any one else willing to help is going to drown.

[juicey J.]

You do realize to reject an idea because its not perfect and has some flaws is a logical fallacy. No, idea is perfect and there is a give and take with everything. Is my idea flawless, h@ll NO!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING.

[juicey J.]

pillars does bring up an interesting point an aspect could cause one twin to be argumentative and the other to experience the aspect via having to deal with their argumentative twin. This brings up questions like the nature of an aspect not just the aspects and planets involved but the sign and the postion of the planets involved in the aspect relative to the other planets all could play a statistical part in how the aspect operates. I truly think a pin point as humanly possible statistically large study of synastry is one of the keys to better astro research and the key to maybe one day proving astrology has validity.

[Rayek]

Your biggest problem would be getting past the observation effect.

Having people fill out a questioneer would skew the results, even if they have no idea what the questioneer is for.

Especially understanding astrology, you should know that even how you approach them to fill out the questioneer could influence the answers. If your mercury is square their mars, they could find you annoying and go into the filling out process with a slightly tinged/annoyed state of mind. On the day that they fill out the questioneer they could be having some planetary influences that aren't allowing them to answer fully honest. Even doing a questioneer online, you'll attrack a certain type of people, ie people who are more likely to fill out questioneers online... which means your data is still skewed.

[juicey J.]

Your biggest problem would be getting past the observation effect.

Having people fill out a questioneer would skew the results, even if they have no idea what the questioneer is for.

Especially understanding astrology, you should know that even how you approach them to fill out the questioneer could influence the answers. If your mercury is square their mars, they could find you annoying and go into the filling out process with a slightly tinged/annoyed state of mind. On the day that they fill out the questioneer they could be having some planetary influences that aren't allowing them to answer fully honest. Even doing a questioneer online, you'll attrack a certain type of people, ie people who are more likely to fill out questioneers online... which means your data is still skewed.

That is the "its not perfect so therefore we can't go with it" logical fallacy. :annoyed: There are discrepancies with nearly all things. Also, no it would be the planetary and star alignments in the chart which, would influence how honest the person is (no transit will really do such) yes some would be dishonest which, is why we need hundreds if not over a thousand or so people to answer the survey to hopefully make up for this discrepancy. Please try to come up with something with no flaws or discrepancies, I'm begging you. There are people from all walks of life who use the internet so your argument there only works to a point.

[juicey J.]

Newton's laws of motion and the laws of thermodynamics are about the only things in existence which, are flawless and without discrepancy. Also, I thinking having a his and her's part of the project would be a good idea since one of the main things being tested is synastry. I thank everyone for their honest opinion even those who don't agree with my own but I won't throw the whole idea away because of a few discrepancies, as such is a logical fallacy.

[Rayek]

Please try to come up with something with no flaws or discrepancies, I'm begging you.

I already did.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37570

Basically, instead of using a questioneer you use books and authors birthdates - a computer to find the commonalities in the books based on the authors charts - after you've done a few million books/charts feed the computer a book and have it give you the authors birthdate.

[juicey J.]

A computer can't do something unless you program it to and you can't tell which, planetary configuration is doing what until you do thorough statistical research like I'm proposing. Sorry your idea isn't without flaw. Your idea would work after much research was done with control groups to come up with a statistically accurate model of what varies planetary configurations are doing (and for that you would need control groups and questionnaires). Your idea having no control groups is in serious danger of only showing illusionary correlations. Also, you have to look at statistical strengths, for example sun conjunct mercury (unless its in a particular house, or sign type) means next to nothing as this configuration is so common. Also, authors aren't the best group to test (although yes they should be) but lets say plumbers as there are a lot more of them and they therefore make for getting a bigger and better statistical sample. No offense your idea with its not even invented computer program is putting the cart before the horse. In fact computers with the type of data storage and artificial intelligence needed to do the things your program proposes are just now being invented (they are being tested by Nasa and the military and are called quantum computers). Oh I do think a day will come when will be able to feed a birthdate or even whole chart into a computer and it will read back "you have a 95% chance of being a dentist" or even "you have a 85% chance of being an adult film star" and be quite accurate with a large sample of participants.
Also, with my test idea it doesn't matter too much how much they lie as its primary focuses are what's the synastry like between the participants and how similarly do they answer the questions, and can a statistical correlation between the two be established?

[Rayek]

A computer can't do something unless you program it to and you can't tell which, planetary configuration is doing what until you do thorough statistical research like I'm proposing.
Regular computers cannot. But there are quite a few computers at this time that can do that type of data processing.

You insert the books, give it the date of birth and chart work up and it will find the patterns to find out exactly what the planetary configurations do.

All the programming that is needed is:
Teaching it to read an Astrology chart on a purely mathematical scale. No interpretation, just... what finding your chart online already does.
The ability to process and find similarities in books by different authors.
The ability to take these similarities and then see if there are similarities in the chart.
The ability to save the data if similarities are found.

The difficult part would be then to take the data it has stored and apply it. If it weren't for that bit, any home computer could do it. It doesn't take AI, and it sure doesn't take a Quantum computer. Though it would take a computer with the equvilant processing power of IBM's Watson.

I chose authors because that would give the largest sampling of data without the observer effect being an issue. Billions of words could be processed at a faster rate without human interaction. An alternative to authors would be to data mine any social networking site that includes the posters date of birth, but it may be more difficult to get a time of birth that way.

To use a computer in this fashion would give the study more scientific validity than a survey.



Also, with my test idea it doesn't matter too much how much they lie as its primary focuses are what's the synastry like between the participants and how similarly do they answer the questions, and can a statistical correlation between the two be established?

You seem to misunderstand. I'm not debunking your thought, rather nitpicking it. I am a Virgo after all.

If I see a flaw or a problem with something I will tell the person... not because I think they are wrong, or even because I think they are on the wrong track... but because if they become aware of the flaw, they may find a way to fix it.

I don't think that your idea is bad, I just think that given the right resources there is a more efficient way of doing it that will produce better results, in a shorter amount of time, without as much field work.

[juicey J.]

Your idea would work if the computer factored in and weigh things like statistical strengths for example 300 sci fi authors have sun in Taurus means next to nothing. Also, it would have to be able to put a chart of an author and have the computer tell you biographer, or fantasy, or mystery novelist.

[juicey J.]

Your idea would work if the computer factored in things like statistical strengths for example 300 sci fi authors having sun in Taurus would mean next to nothing. Also, it would have to be able to put a chart of an author (even if they are just starting out and there is no major data base them)and have the computer tell you biographer, or fantasy, or mystery novelist.

Also, like I said they are coming up with computers with this kind of data processing but in order for the program to work you have to have a computer program with lots of statistical data to run off of in the first place. Such programs will be the result of statistical research and data collecting from such like I'm proposing. Also, you have to find someone one willing to put the time and money into building such a program (good luck when a majority of the intellectual community spits at the face of astrology) your idea like just about any other isn't without set backs or flaws.

Also, your idea of the people's synastry to mine playing a factor is ludicrous. Sure it will play a bit of a factor but the notion out of hundreds (I only hope I can get such numbers) there will be enough people with negative synastry to mine it will truly affect the overall results is silly. I have nothing personally against you but yeah your being virgo as in making mountains out of ant hills.

[juicey J.]

Once again I realize my idea has flaws but just about every one does. Also, I'm afraid everyone has pretentious (my self included) some more so then others depending on genetic and astro factors, in other words I honestly think a lot more people would be behind my idea (like Mark and Doc Farr) if my name happened to be rob hand or even james randi.

[Rayek]

Once again I realize my idea has flaws but just about every one does. Also, I'm afraid everyone has pretentious (my self included) some more so then others depending on genetic and astro factors, in other words I honestly think a lot more people would be behind my idea (like Mark and Doc Farr) if my name happened to be rob hand or even james randi.
I have no idea who those people are. :pinched: But I'm guessing they're famous or popular. You're right, just like the scientific community would be behind you if your name was Stephen Hawking. That's just life.

But I think more people would also be behind your idea if you started coming up with the questions you're planning on asking in the survey. Obviously not as many as if you were famous, but for sure more.

One thing I would like to ask is why are you starting off with finding relationships between signs of two people rather than relationships between signs in just one person?

I'm not saying that is the wrong place to begin. I'm just curious as to why you choose to work with two rather than gathering statistical data for one and then working your way to two. I think that's where our previous conversation took a turn, my "test" was focusing on individual charts and not synastry. (I know I talked about synastry in one of my previous posts but my mind blanked out on the correct terminology and thought you were talking about something else).

[juicey J.]

Rob hand is probly the most famous astrologer in the world and one of the top rated. James Randi is a famous mega skeptic.
I have been coming up with said survey and Mark is (or at least he was) helping to form and edit it. Hopefully by the end of this year it will be complete. I plan on using this site to get people to fill it out and I plan on going to sites of twin conventions (where there are hundreds to thousands) and try to get them to take it. I also plan on having a site with themes and designs which, will attract people (with the help of Mark and who ever else wishes to help) and to also have it double as a storage for the data. I also do plan on seeing if any astro factors in a person's chart (once I get enough data) are statistically (using statistical strengths and control groups to seperate the wheat) connected to things like their career experience as well as social, political, and religous view points. The idea is people might having things in common via no only similar (if not exactly the same) placements but also via their synastry also the idea is by comparison and contrast people (even identical twins) with lots of stress aspects and little if any friendly ones will have altogather little in common and such will be reflected in how they answer the overall survey. I theorize on average identical twins despite other factors (which, will look at in varies control groups) with mostly friendly aspects will have the most in common out of all the tested samples.