Requesting help with reading composite charts

[Sweet Escape]

Hello,

I have a question about reading a composite chart. If two planets in the chart are opposed by sign (Scorpio and Taurus) for example, would that count as an aspect in your composite chart? Or does it only count as a significant aspect if the planets are opposed within degrees?

This is the composite chart of an ex and I. I've been looking to our chart for an explanation as to why our relationship was so tumultuous. One of my first observations was that Venus is square Uranus in our chart by sign (Pisces and Sag). Are those two planets being in squaring signs alone enough to count as us having this composite aspect?

Thanks for your help.

[Mark]

I would have to say that you were doing it to each other. The planets didn't do anything to you. Both of you had the power to choose your involvement on the micro and macro levels and so the problems were all solvable. In speaking of the way things actually turn out, much more depends on the individuals than on any astrology.

Also, aspects only count within a given number of degrees. Reading charts by "whole signs" is like rounding numbers. When you're only dealing with 12 numbers, rounding makes too much of a difference to be called precise or even accurate.

[Sweet Escape]

Okay, thank you for your help. So one more thing, an aspect is within a 10 degree orb, right? Please look at our chart again, notice how it says Moon "28 Vir" and Saturn "24 Sag"? Are those two planets squaring by degree? 28 and 24 are only 4 degrees apart. Unless I'm not calculating that correctly? I'm sorry if it seems like I've asked this same question a lot on here, but when it comes to degrees I get lost. :/

[waybread]

Sweet E, Jeez Louise! How did you two ever form a relationship? Basically the red lines indicate squares and oppositions; while trines and sextiles show up as blue lines. Then those fainter black dotted lines indicate other sorts of stressful aspects. You can see a lot more stressors than happy aspects in this chart.

I think the default orbs at Astrodienst are too wide, but let's play your chart as it lays. Each planet has the option of appearing in a degree numbered from one to 30. With the major aspects, if you have two planets in the same degree, their aspect is tight. But if one planet is at a degree a few degrees higher or lower than its pair mate, you would still feel the aspect. So if you have Pluto at 10 degrees and the sun at 15 degrees, they are five degrees off of an exact square, but we would still say they're "in orb." If they are 15 degrees off from exact, we would say they do not have a square, because the orb (or "wiggle room") is too wide. Most astrologers would use orbs of 5-7 degrees for the planets, and up to 10 degrees for the sun and moon. I think you can stretch these a bit in a composite chart. So yes, at 7 degrees off exact, you can count Venus and Uranus as squared.

Basically a composite chart gives an "average" of your two charts, and there are different ways to do this that give different charts. It shows your dynamics as a couple, not as two different individuals. You really can't do composite charts if you do not have accurate birth times for both people, as the houses could be way off; although you can still look at aspects for the planets except the moon because it moves so quickly.

The sun symbolizes the identity of your relationship as a couple. Pluto squares both your composite sun and Mercury, which indicates how well you communicate. These aspects suggest major power struggles. Mars square Venus suggests some hot romantic/sexual attraction; but one that is basically incompatible because the assertiveness/attraction mix is just coming from different places. It may have been the mainstay that kept your relationship going, however. Neptune/Uranus/Saturn square moon looks like a bundle of hurt feelings.

Of course, I can't see the good times that you undoubtedly had, but I can see why this is a former relationship.

[Mark]

I tend to use smaller orbs. I find that 3° or 4° is appropriate for most planets. Regardless of the orb size, I add 50% for the Sun and 25% for the Moon. I use small orbs because "loose" aspects do not have nearly the same punch as "tight" aspects. Another good reason to use small orbs is your aspect list. Most modern astrologers use an abbreviated aspect list. The full list is mathematically derivable from the number 360, as per the link below. All the information is in the number tables. When using this full aspect list, the smaller aspects become unusable with big orbs. If you want to know the difference between a 24° aspect and a 25° aspect, you will need a 0.5° orb or smaller. Any bigger and the overlap turns two aspects that seem to share a duality into only one aspect. Also, big orbs can only be sensibly applied to natal charts. Progressions, transits, and the like all require smaller orbs for precision. Anything that is time-sensitive needs small orbs.

http://www.twelvestaralmanac.com/article2.shtml

[Claire19]

The composite chart aspects are smaller than natal. I would not use any more than 4 degrees and maybe a little more for the Sun and Moon. Take another look at the chart and use only those aspects within say 3 degrees. You will get a different and less confusing picture.
It is THE relationship and especially as you are seen as a couple by others. The dynamics that are really at play especially as you progress as a couple.

I cant help but think that this relationship was secret or conducted behind the scenes or in private to a large extent. Some degree of control as well as obsession to some degree is a strong possibility. THere may have been issues with cultural background, ethics and faith and perhaps about where to live and in what country perhaps. Therewas an enabling of each other's weakness and neuroses and an undermining which may have been quite sub conscious and in liking to be in retreat.

[astrologer50]

Hello,

I have a question about reading a composite chart. If two planets in the chart are opposed by sign (Scorpio and Taurus) for example, would that count as an aspect in your composite chart? Or does it only count as a significant aspect if the planets are opposed within degrees?

This is the composite chart of an ex and I. I've been looking to our chart for an explanation as to why our relationship was so tumultuous. One of my first observations was that Venus is square Uranus in our chart by sign (Pisces and Sag). Are those two planets being in squaring signs alone enough to count as us having this composite aspect?

Thanks for your help.

Composite charts
If you go to www.astro.com (http://www.astro.com/) click on free horoscopes, go to Interactive horoscopes, go down to Astroclick partner, that will bring up a composite chart and when you put the mouse over a planet will bring up a pop up box with the interpretation......

But you do need both times of birth to be accurate though.. enjoy.

Composites describe the relationship, not either one of you, but what you came together to learn or to do and how the 'pair of you' function when together....

http://books.google.com/books?id=dUulSwQoEC4C&pg=PR16&dq=robert+hand+composites&ei=r8HRSsXNEJvmygSIsP3eCQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=dUulSwQoEC4C&pg=PR16&dq=robert+hand+composites&ei=r8HRSsXNEJvmygSIsP3eCQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

The Book ---Planets in Composite: Analyzing Human Relationships By Robert Hand-- is greatly recommended

“The composite doesn't seem to describe what either person feels about the other. In this way it is very different from synastry, which describes the chemistry between two people in terms of how they affect each other. The composite chart is like a child, a third entity which carries the genetic imprints of both parents but combines these imprints in an entirely new way and exists independently of either of them”
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_composit_e.htm (http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_composit_e.htm)

“Composites have their own laws and energies, and these have nothing to do with whether we are "well matched" with someone. A composite in itself will not tell us about compatibility. That is what synastry is for. The composite won't reveal whether the relationship is "good" or "bad" in terms of the chemistry between two people. The composite says to us, "If you choose to enter this relationship, here is its meaning and pattern of destiny”
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_composit_e.htm (http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_composit_e.htm)

http://www.astrology-numerology.com/composite.html (http://www.astrology-numerology.com/composite.html)
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/composite.html (http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/composite.html)

“For example, the composite Ascendant can indicate the circumstances surrounding the first meeting or the beginning of the relationship. It can also point to how a couple initiates things together (such as projects). Similarly, the end of a relationship can be depicted by the composite twelfth house. Once a relationship kicks in (moves beyond the initial stages), the composite Sun becomes more apparent. If a commitment to each other happens, the seventh and eighth houses come more clearly into focus. As such, the conditions surrounding the planets and houses in the composite chart can show us different stages of development of the relationship over time.”
http://www.cafeastrology.com/compositechart.html (http://www.cafeastrology.com/compositechart.html)
click on link to read full article

http://www.astrology-numerology.com/composite.html (http://www.astrology-numerology.com/composite.html)
http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/composite.html (http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/composite.html)
[only 3 quotes allowed per posting per forum rules - Moderator]
http://starrynightastrology.com/2009/08/02/relationship-astrology-making-love-last-part-1-your-relationship-style/ (http://starrynightastrology.com/2009/08/02/relationship-astrology-making-love-last-part-1-your-relationship-style/)[/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: relationships
theortically EJ has the right order but I would question the interpretations of composites and davision's cos some members here who specialises reads composites as if they were davison charts.

1) In composites I disregard planetary sign placements and instead focus on houses where the planets fall and on aspects. The composite Sun is the most important.
2) Aspects that occur in both natals and in the composite/davison will be psychological issues that need to be worked on in the relationship.
3) Aspects that occur in the composite but not in the natals are issues rising within the relationship that have not been dealt with before by either party.
4) In Davison the main difference is to look at sign placement, whilst ignore sign placement in the composite. Also look for sign strength and weakness, mutual reception, sole dispositors.
5) In both ‘composites’ and ‘Davisons’, look for midpoints that are conjoined by planets in either natal. In composites, these relationships seem to be referring to psychological issues, while in ‘Davidsons’, the midpoint relationships tend to refer to forces acting on the couple from outside the relationship.
6) Try putting your natal planets around the outside of either chart, to see who relates best to this relationship and who is gaining the most. This can be rather revealing
7) Also remember you can use transits over both these charts and again Angles are very sensitive points
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=180956&postcount=11 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=180956&postcount=11)

Davison chart v Composite chart
“Important point! Both of these charts are for the two of you as a couple. They show things that will tend to happen in the relationship as well as how you act towards the outside world when you are together. They have no effect when you are apart”
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/relationshipdavidson26.0.htm

[waybread]

The composite chart aspects are smaller than natal. I would not use any more than 4 degrees and maybe a little more for the Sun and Moon. Take another look at the chart and use only those aspects within say 3 degrees. You will get a different and less confusing picture.


My experience has been that wider orbs work pretty well in synastry although I would not use them in a natal chart alone. Sometimes you hear from people who claim to have a great relationship or they've been married a long time, and you see the standard indicators, yet with wider orbs.

[Mark]

Well, the question is which aspects are at play. So, I would actually suggest that you play around with your orb size. Using a smaller orb, you will get fewer aspects that are all strong. Using bigger orbs, you'll get lots more aspects, but the new aspects are weaker than the ones with small orbs. Varying orb size is a good way to establish a limit of how strong an aspect must be before it gets considered. With some applications, you'll need tiny orbs. With other applications, loose orbs seem to add some useful information. If you want to get a full story on any one application, I would suggest starting with small orbs and then increasing orb size until the information getting added stops making sense. Do that a number of times and you'll know about where the line is.

[waybread]

Mark, I do look at harmonics and minor aspects sometimes, and agree that you have to use narrow orbs for such purposes. One thing about the major aspects, however, is that a close conjunction in the radix chart is going to be a conjunction in any harmonic chart; just as a close opposition is going to be a conjunction in any of the 2-series harmonics, and so on. This is why they are so powerful. A wide quincunx (150 degrees) at 154 degrees might just be a tri-septile; or at 144 degrees, a bi-quintile. In all three cases, the planets are "talking to each other" but the mode of expression is different.

I basically have a protocol or diagnostic for synastry charts for couples: pairing up the sun (ego/identity compatibility), pairing up the moon (feeling "at home" with the other person, emotional compatibility) and reverse Mars/Venus aspects. Ideally these are conjunctions, sextiles, or trines. Inter-aspects between these 4 planets are helpful, and here we might throw in the ascendant.

Then I would look at the other planets as Tier 2. Because you might have two people who communicate really well (Mercury) or who get obsessive about one another (Pluto to moon) but unless the basics are down, I think there will either be tension, or the two people don't quite connect. Oppositions and squares can be hot stuff, but fundamentally the planets are coming from different operating modes, with different needs and expressions. Jupiter is a "feel good" aspect where it hits someone's personal planet.

Tier 3 would be pairs between outer planets, because they are generational. Someones a person with a natal Venus/Pluto conjunction teams up with someone with a Pluto conjunct their Venus, which seems obsessive; yet basically the same aspect would happen with anyone born in a period of several years. An outer-to-inner aspect seems more important if you don't find these generational effects.

With composite charts, sun conjunct Venus is a real sign of love and affection. The more planets conjunct the sun, the more solid the relationship seems. But then the squares and oppositions by house placements generally show where the stressors are going to occur.

One interesting thing is that sometimes you look at synastry and wonder how these two people ever struck up a relationship. Then you look at the composite, and it looks pretty good. And some of these people are happily married. So I would always try to look at both the chart-to-chart synastrycomparisons, as well as composite charts.

BTW I prefer mid-point composites to Davison charts, but probably that is just my bias. Interestingly, they give different results.

[Sweet Escape]

Sweet E, Jeez Louise! How did you two ever form a relationship? Basically the red lines indicate squares and oppositions; while trines and sextiles show up as blue lines. Then those fainter black dotted lines indicate other sorts of stressful aspects. You can see a lot more stressors than happy aspects in this chart.

I think the default orbs at Astrodienst are too wide, but let's play your chart as it lays. Each planet has the option of appearing in a degree numbered from one to 30. With the major aspects, if you have two planets in the same degree, their aspect is tight. But if one planet is at a degree a few degrees higher or lower than its pair mate, you would still feel the aspect. So if you have Pluto at 10 degrees and the sun at 15 degrees, they are five degrees off of an exact square, but we would still say they're "in orb." If they are 15 degrees off from exact, we would say they do not have a square, because the orb (or "wiggle room") is too wide. Most astrologers would use orbs of 5-7 degrees for the planets, and up to 10 degrees for the sun and moon. I think you can stretch these a bit in a composite chart. So yes, at 7 degrees off exact, you can count Venus and Uranus as squared.

Basically a composite chart gives an "average" of your two charts, and there are different ways to do this that give different charts. It shows your dynamics as a couple, not as two different individuals. You really can't do composite charts if you do not have accurate birth times for both people, as the houses could be way off; although you can still look at aspects for the planets except the moon because it moves so quickly.

The sun symbolizes the identity of your relationship as a couple. Pluto squares both your composite sun and Mercury, which indicates how well you communicate. These aspects suggest major power struggles. Mars square Venus suggests some hot romantic/sexual attraction; but one that is basically incompatible because the assertiveness/attraction mix is just coming from different places. It may have been the mainstay that kept your relationship going, however. Neptune/Uranus/Saturn square moon looks like a bundle of hurt feelings.

Of course, I can't see the good times that you undoubtedly had, but I can see why this is a former relationship.

You're absolutely right, this was a short lived and very abusive relationship on every level. I still haven't made sense of or come to terms with everything he said/did to me. I'm almost crying now just thinking about it.

And thanks so much for explaining orbs, I understand how to read them now.

I cant help but think that this relationship was secret or conducted behind the scenes or in private to a large extent. Some degree of control as well as obsession to some degree is a strong possibility. THere may have been issues with cultural background, ethics and faith and perhaps about where to live and in what country perhaps. Therewas an enabling of each other's weakness and neuroses and an undermining which may have been quite sub conscious and in liking to be in retreat.Claire, omg! Yes, yes, and yes. Hardly anyone knew we were together most of the time. He never liked being seen with me. Controlling, absolutely. He watched my every move, criticized the way I spoke, told me to dress differently, insulted my hairstyle. This guy is a classic abuser and all he wanted was sex. I don't even know why I met him. I like to think everyone comes into your life for a purpose, but I see nothing that I gained from meeting him. It left me with, as waybread said, a bundle of hurt feelings and nothing else.

The only reason I can think of as to why I felt like I was going somewhere with him is that my NN is Aquarius. His Asc is Aquarius, and in our composite chart the Sun and Mercury are in Aquarius. But I don't know if that counts as a tie to the NN. And his NN is Aries. Our composite Asc is Aries. But since the relationship is done, those things obviously weren't important...

Thanks again everyone, you guys are amazing.

[Mark]

The lunar nodes are indicators of karmic connections. It sounds like he was a stepping-stone on your path to becoming what you're supposed to be. As bad as it was, you learned. With a North node in Aries, he is supposed to be learning proper control of himself. Maybe in the long run you will have served to open his eyes to something too.

[Claire19]

Okay, thank you for your help. So one more thing, an aspect is within a 10 degree orb, right? Please look at our chart again, notice how it says Moon "28 Vir" and Saturn "24 Sag"? Are those two planets squaring by degree? 28 and 24 are only 4 degrees apart. Unless I'm not calculating that correctly? I'm sorry if it seems like I've asked this same question a lot on here, but when it comes to degrees I get lost. :/
Yes Moon is squaring Saturn within 4 degrees. I would use it. Not a good aspect but can be karmic and may keep people together because of that.

[Claire19]

You're absolutely right, this was a short lived and very abusive relationship on every level. I still haven't made sense of or come to terms with everything he said/did to me. I'm almost crying now just thinking about it.

And thanks so much for explaining orbs, I understand how to read them now.

Claire, omg! Yes, yes, and yes. Hardly anyone knew we were together most of the time. He never liked being seen with me. Controlling, absolutely. He watched my every move, criticized the way I spoke, told me to dress differently, insulted my hairstyle. This guy is a classic abuser and all he wanted was sex. I don't even know why I met him. I like to think everyone comes into your life for a purpose, but I see nothing that I gained from meeting him. It left me with, as waybread said, a bundle of hurt feelings and nothing else.

The only reason I can think of as to why I felt like I was going somewhere with him is that my NN is Aquarius. His Asc is Aquarius, and in our composite chart the Sun and Mercury are in Aquarius. But I don't know if that counts as a tie to the NN. And his NN is Aries. Our composite Asc is Aries. But since the relationship is done, those things obviously weren't important...

Thanks again everyone, you guys are amazing.
Yes he was a controlling abuser and you have done with that. It may have been a karmic debt and at least you will not put up with that sort of behaviour again. The nodes only mean a connection of some sort. Remember not to mix your personal aspects with the composite. The composite is the merging of the two of you and your natal aspects. Your synastry would be different again. The composite is the THE relationship
dynamics and especially as others would perceive it. Without Saturn contacts the relationship would not be enduring. I think you know it was not going to go anywhere good and thank god it is over. We all have bastards in our lives and the trick is to make sure it is only ever one.:smile:

[Sweet Escape]

Yes he was a controlling abuser and you have done with that. It may have been a karmic debt and at least you will not put up with that sort of behaviour again. The nodes only mean a connection of some sort. Remember not to mix your personal aspects with the composite. The composite is the merging of the two of you and your natal aspects. Your synastry would be different again. The composite is the THE relationship
dynamics and especially as others would perceive it. Without Saturn contacts the relationship would not be enduring. I think you know it was not going to go anywhere good and thank god it is over. We all have bastards in our lives and the trick is to make sure it is only ever one.:smile:
Yeah, he was the first person to ever treat me in that way. I at least know what to look out for now.

It's funny you should mention karmic debts. I've always been a spiritual person and that was my first thought. How frightening if I was able to inflict this kind of trauma on other people in a past life. Abuse seems alien to me seeing as how I didn't experience it growing up, but the emotions he instilled in me have an eerie familiarity. I'm just doing my best to keep choosing a loving way of life over fear. I hope I can make it and heal from this experience.

[Claire19]

My experience has been that wider orbs work pretty well in synastry although I would not use them in a natal chart alone. Sometimes you hear from people who claim to have a great relationship or they've been married a long time, and you see the standard indicators, yet with wider orbs.
Orbs are a vexed question and I guess experience is the guide.
Well,being married a long time does not mean happiness always and what people claim is not always the case.....what goes on behind closed doors no one knows. sometimes there is co-dependence and obsession.......however Saturn strong indicates endurance in relationships even when not happy as there is a karmic element and repayment of debt or credit...People are together for all sorts of reasons and not always love and romance.....