Charlton V Portsmouth match

[Rohan]

Dear Goca,

I want some help from you on the match played between Charlton United and Portsmouth today.

Match details:

Charlton United V Portsmouth

Match Date: 16/09/2006

K/o: 12:45

Venue: Charlton 51n29, 0e03, England Time Zone: 1 h east, Daylight Saving T

Asc: Scorpio 27 21’

Charlton home kit color is Red

Portsmouth away Kit color is white

Scorpio= Red, Lord of Asc. Mars= Red so I have assigned Asc. to Charlton.

Venus represents White so Dec. is Portsmouth.

Adding to this the match was played on Charlton’s home ground.

So Asc. is Charlton and Dec. is Portsmouth.

Now Dec. Lord Venus is in debilitation and Asc. Lord is well placed in the 10th house. So naturally Asc. Lord is more powerful and benefic Jupiter is in the Asc.

So I predicted Charlton wins. But it was wrong. Porstmouth won by 1-0.

I am unable to understand this. Can you please spare some time and guide me?

Regards,
Rohan Joshi

[fensi88]

Hello Rohan!
I look at this chart and here is my opinion:
First I do not know how you get Ju on ASC, may be because of that your prediction was wrong.
I got ASC=27SCo21
If we look at rulers, accidental dignities gives result for
Ma=5
Ve=2
This is not big difference.
Frawley said that accidental dignities are more important, BUT if all other testimonies are more or less equal, a strong discrepancy n essential dignity can be crucial.
So what we have for Ma and Ve.
Ma is peregrine, detriment = -10
Ve is in fall but in own trip., term and face! = 2
This is a differnce!
And that Pl in 1st again...
I also notice that Ve is in mutual reception with Me but I do not know if we can count it as it is in 10th house?!

[Rohan]

Thanks very much Goca. It is really very insightful. Your analysis is superb. I think I gave too much importance to debilitation.

Actually 16th Sept. was really a horrible day. All the five matches I have predicted went wrong. More interesting part of the matches is three of them were drawn and two of them without scoring a single goal.

The match Bolton Wanderers v Middlesbrough
Venue: Bolton, 53n35, 2w26, England ,Time Zone: 1 h east, Daylight Saving T, K/o 15:00

Asc: Sagittarius 18 51’

Bolton Home kit: white

Middlesbrough away kit: white with blue

I have assigned Asc. to Bolton and Jupiter placed in the 10th house. There were no indications of draw. Moon was not VOC. Moon was in its own house so the norms of dispositor are not relevant. Moon has not any relation with south node as well.

I predicted Bolton win. But it was a draw 0:0


2)
In other match Everton v Wigan Athletic

Venue: Liverpool, 53n25, 2w55, England, Time Zone: 1 h east, Daylight Saving T,
K/0:15:00

Everton home kit: blue or sky blue

Wigan away kit: Black

Asc. almost same as the above

The match was drawn 2:2

I was again wrong; as I have predicted Everton win


3)

And the third match Watford v Aston Villa

Venue: WATFORD 51n40, 0w25, England, Time Zone: 1 h east, Daylight Saving

K/0: 17:15

Watford home kit: Yellow

Aston villa away kit: white

Asc. Capricorn 28 32’

The match was drawn goalless 0:0

I could not find any valid reasons for a draw. Can you please guide me?

Thanks again for your valuable guidance and assistance,

Regards,
Rohan Joshi

[Rohan]

Dear Goca,

If you don’t have much time to spare from your busy schedule, which is understandable, please let me know that are there any other principles that force a Draw apart from the Moon VOC, South Node’s relations, Moon’s relationship with south Node, Moon’s d dispositer and retrograde planets etc. I am asking you this because all these factors are missing in the matches I have stated in my previous mail.

Yes, I have also observed that the principle “ IF Moon’s dispositer is in conjunction with south Node may force Draw” is not giving correct results every time. In yesterdays match the Moon’s dispositer Sun was in tight conjunction with South Node but only one match was resulted in draw and other four matches have winners. Do you have any suggestions for that?

Thanks very much,

Regards,
Rohan Joshi.

[fensi88]

Unfortunately I have no printer at home, so today I print these charts in my office and in the evening I will look at them. The big question for me is way one match is ended drawn with goals and another, with same chart, without goals. I would like to ask that question Frawley but I have not his email.
In a meantime, read interview with him, there are some intresting questions about matches:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/jfrawley.html

[Rohan]

Its Ok. No problems. By the way the interview is interesting.

The following two questions in the interview are vital for football match predictions. I am also facing same problems when three or more matches start at the same time with same charts but results are very different. I have mentioned in my last mail that in yesterday's matches the rule for draw applied to one match but other two matches have their winners.


Q: Going back to football, and this approach of taking the chart for the kick-off as signifying the nature of the match. On Saturday in England, you have extremely similar charts for all the teams kicking off at three o'clock on Saturday. What happens then?


I cannot make head nor tail of what happens on Saturday. This method works fine where there are one or two significant matches - the Cup Final, European championships, stuff like that. But what happens on Saturday, I don't know. I've tried a kind of micro-astrology, looking at minute differences between the charts to see if they explain why the home team here wins and the team two hundred yards down the road loses. You get the same problem in snooker at the start of a snooker tournament, you have half a dozen matches starting at the same time, in the same room. And the favourite will not win all those matches.




Q: That probably says something deep and important about the way astrology works.


Yes, I'm sure it does. It's probably something to do with what Carter talks about his 'doctrine of subsumption', the idea that what happens is taken up into a larger destiny. That being the case, all those charts (of football matches at 3:00 pm on Saturday) would be subsumed by one chart for three o'clock at the Premier League's headquarters, Lancaster Gate, or wherever their headquarters are. Pick the bones out of that!


I think you must have your opinion about this issues.

Waiting for your comments,

Regards,
Rohan Joshi

[fensi88]

It seems he has no answer to this question and suggest us to do prediction only for big matches. In someother interview (or in his book), he said that in that case (when many matches begins at same time in diffrent towns) it is important antiscia, only antiscia change upon latti. and long. But when more matches begings in same town I think he will have less mistakes if he will apply "color system" instead of favorite team=ASC. I am not proffesional astrology, I learn still and I think "there is something" that we have to discover to do right predictions.
Few months ago I think that it is impossible to predict time for scoring, but one day on this forum came Aquarita and give me idea and now I know. So, maybe someone else knows the answer to this question and one day he/she will come to this forum and share their knowledge with us.

[fensi88]

Finally I got time to look at charts.
As you said chart 1 and 2 are almost same, both with drawn result but second one with goals.
For first chart you said:
I have assigned Asc. to Bolton and Jupiter placed in the 10th house.

When planet is under 5 degree from cusp it is consider as in next house, so actually Ju is in 11house.
Fact that the Moon is in its own sign in 7 house is not so strong "thing" because Moon is in diffrent sign of 7 house cusp.
I do calculations regarding accidental dignities and get for

Ju=13
Me=6

I consider when difference is more that 10 that is "big" difference (from my practice untill today).

The fact that we must pay attention is Pl in first in SAME sign as ASC, malefic, but I do not know exactly what "points" it gets (something to pay attention for in next research, matches). That Pl weaked ASC team and maybe balance accidental dignities and matches ended drawn. Abou goals I have no idea, as I said in previous post.

3 chart is very complicated with lots of planets in 1st and 7th, but again in differnet signs from house cusps, so I consider we have not consider them.
If we do accdental dignities for rulers we got
Sa=17
Moon=7
This is big differnece, but look! Ruler of 1st is in 7 house!
Frawley:"
A significator in it's opponent's house is usually a conclusive sign of defeat: it is the hands of the enemy. " Especially if it is near cusp. Here it is in other sign, so DSC team has not so power to beat them, but enough power to do not allow them to win, so DSC team weak accidental strength of ASC team and match ended drawn. Planet in house is controled by that house.

[fensi88]

I forgot to tell you that in chart No.3. ruler of 7th house is in conjuct with unfortunate fix star Castor, so althoght the ruler of 1st is in 7house, DSC could not win. So, ASc team could not win because DSC control them (ruler of 1st in 7th house), and DSC could not win (Castor), that means match ended with drawn.

[Rohan]

Thanks Goca.

Your observation about Pl in Asc. is interesting but not working every time.

There were three matches on 9th Sept. and in all those matches Asc. was Sagittarius and Pl in Asc. in same sign. But only one of them ended drawn and other two had winners. If you need I will provide you data of those three matches. But we must consider Pl impact as I also feel that it has some adverse impact on the Asc. and tend to weaken the Asc. team. We will continue to examine in future matches.

I am impressed by your analysis about the 3rd match as I found it more logical and conclusive. I was giving importance to only three Fixed stars Regulus, Spica and Algol until now. But now I will consider the Castor as well. Can you tell me how many other fixed stars have decisive impact?

Yes, one other question don’t you pay attention to Occidental and Oriental position while calculating dignities?

By the way thanks very much again as you have spare so much time for me. And your observations are really insightful, logical and eye opener for some one like me who has just started to learn Sports Astrology. Hoping for your support in future as well.

Regards,
Rohan Joshi

[Rohan]

Liverpool v Tottenham Hotspur

Date: 23/09/2006
Venue: Liverpool 53n25, 2w55, England, Time Zone: 1h east DST
K/o: 12:45 PM

Liverpool home kit: Red

Tottenham away Kit: navy blue

Asc: Scoropio: Red
Mars: Red
Mars in Libra: Blue-green

Dec: Taurus: Bright green
Dec. Lord in Virgo: white, gray, yellow and green
Venus: Bright but not glaring blues and greens, white


Asc: Liverpool


Mars: Venus:

10th house: +5 9th House: +2
Direct: +4 direct +4
Oriental +2 Oriental -2
Under sun’ beam –4 Under Sun’s Beam -4

Total: +7 Total: 0



Venus is in mutual reception with Mercury: +5
Venus is in the triplicity of Jupiter
Venus is in the term of Saturn
Venus is in the face of Mercury


Mars is in triplicity of Saturn
Mars is in the term of Venus
Mars is in the face of Moon
Mars is Detriment
Mars is Peregrine


The match is same as Charlton V Portsmouth played on 16th of sept.
Portsmouth has won that match by 1-0 and at that time you have told me that although the Asc. Lord is well placed and the Dec. Lord is in fall Portsmouth would win because the Asc. Lord is detriment and paregrine.

So what do you think will this happen this time as well? Here we have Dec. Tottenham and Asc. Liverpool.

So do you think Tottenham would win?


One thing is also noticeable: the despositor of Moon, which is Venus, placed with south Node. So can we predict a draw?

And yes Pl is in Asc. but not in the same sign.

Please guide me.


Regards,
Rohan Joshi

[fensi88]

Yes, one other question don’t you pay attention to Occidental and Oriental position while calculating dignities?


Yes, I do pay attention. Do you notice some mistakes? Please, tell.

There were three matches on 9th Sept. and in all those matches Asc. was Sagittarius and Pl in Asc.

Are in all that charts Pl under 5 degree of ASC in 1st house?

Regarding fix stars I look all of them, simly- is it fortunate or not.

[fensi88]

I would asign colour just as you do. Liverpool=ASC. In this chart Pl is out of consern, it is too far away of ASC in differnt sign.
So, I notice that you consider Ma as oriental, no it is occidental.
So I got Ma=5
Ve=1 (for Ve you did not count beseiged=-4 and because Ve is under 5 of MC I consider it as is in 10th house).
So, we look essential dignities.
Ma is pereg, detrim.=-10
Ve is in fall, mutal rec, own triplic=4
So as we see Ve is stronger.
Ma is in Ve sign, so Ve is in power.Father more Ve is on cusp of MC so Ve control that house(house of fame for ASC team)!
Ma is almost exact on fix star Windemiatrix, unfortunate, so to me it seams that Tottenham will win.

the despositor of Moon, which is Venus, placed with south Node. So can we predict a draw?


In sports horary I did not see that someone works with so wide orbis, I think we will consider it if orbis is -,+ 1 degree.

[Rohan]

Dear Goca,

Oriental means ' Rise before the Sun' and Occidental means ' Rise after the Sun' . is it correct?

I have considered Mars as Oriental because Mars 9 56' in Libra and Sun is 00 18' in Libra. So obviously Mars rise before Sun. So that I have considered Mars as oriental.

please correct it if I am wrong.

Regards,
Rohan Joshi

[fensi88]

Many thanks for pointig out this thing! I am not sure if i understand this OK, but noone untill today said me that I am wrong so I thought I was right. I did not even know what this words means. Thanks for explanations. Problem is because you can find on Internet definitions for oriental and occidental but not examples. I hate that! If you find some address on Internet with explanation for this with chart and example, please post!

I find this definition on this site:
http://members.aol.com/tonylouis/home/glossi-p.htm


ORIENTAL OF THE SUN: A planet is oriental of the Sun when is rises or sets before the Sun. If you rotate the chart so the Sun is on the Ascendant, planets above the horizon are oriental of the Sun.

I think it is (when you rotate chart and Su is on ASC) house from 7 to 12.

In fact I look untill today on this, this way: If planet is in the sign before the sign where it is Su I consider it as oriental, and if planet is in sign after the sign in which Su is I consider it as occidental. If planet is in same sign but earlier degree I consider it as oriental. Maybe I am in delusion so I would like to see some examle to now what to do in future.

[Rohan]

its ok. I will try to find some example and will post you whenever I get.

Will this now make any differnce on the result of the match between Liverpool v Tottenham Hotspur?

I am very tentative in a match when Liverpool or Arsenl plays because many times i failed totally to predict the result. I want success this time. :p

help me I am sure you can.

Regards,
Rohan Joshi

[fensi88]

Regarding oriental and occidental planets read answer to my post on skyscript forum:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1856

[fensi88]

Liverpool won this match 3:0!(I saw that fantastic 3. goal!) Did match begin at time?
I do not know what to say! Liverpool's ruler was in conjuct with unfortunate fix star, but they won! I can not believe. It is most crucial to determine at what point we have to add or not essential dignities.

[Rohan]

I was stunned by the result. Liverpool won match by 3-0. I cant belive it. Goca you were so confident about Tottenham win so as I. Somehow somewhere we make terrible mistakes and unable to find our mistakes.

Is there anyone who can explain us the Liverpool win?

Come on friends we need the explanations.

Regards,
Rohan Joshi