Which Houses Represent Parents/Mother/Father?

[Draco]

In horary or natal astrology, which house is it that represents the parents?

In several sources, I have read that according to the ancients, particularly in horary, that the 10th House represents the mother and the 4th house is the father, because the 4th house is our roots and heritage and as we inherit our family name from our father and this is the line through which we trace our ancestry, then he is the 4th house (roots/heritage). This would make sense in this respect. However, modern astrology, particularly natal astrology, tends to give the mother to the 4th house, as this is the house of home, family and domesticity, and traditionally this is a more female and motherly realm. The 10th House then in this sense, is attributed to the father as this is the house of discipline and authority, which are traditionally more male, fatherly characteristics. So to look at it this way would make sense as well, so I find this confusing and I am unsure as to which correspondence is more appropriate looking at charts to find clues about mother/father.

I would be intuitively inclined to think that the 4th=mother and the 10th=father, but this would contradict the ancients who would put it the other way round. Considering that they were much more observant astrologers than we are today, and observed the heavens as often as we observe television and computer screens, then who am I/we to argue?

Perhaps it differs in horary and natal astrology. Maybe in horary it is best to attribute 10th=mother and 4th=father, as is traditional. Maybe in natal it is best to correspond them the other way round, as would seem to have become traditional.

Yet this is not satisfying, as surely it would make sense to attribute mother/father to the same houses in both areas of astrological study, to give some uniformity of correspondence to our scientific art-form. (Sun in Virgo, Sat/Mer conjunct in Libra - I hate the imbalanced and asymmetrical!)

In consideration of the parents together as one unit, then to me it would seem obvious that this should be the domain of the 11th house, as the opposite 5th house is the house of children, those who descend from us, then the 11th house surely, would be the house of parents, as this is where we descend from.

Were you aware that there is a contradiction between the attribution of mother/father to the 4th/10th houses?

What correspondence do you use and why do you think this makes more sense?

I imagine that those with an emphasis in Virgo/Libra will also be as bugged by this lack of order, uniformity and harmony as I am. Whoever you are, post back with your thoughts on this topic.

Regards,
Draco :wink:

[Lapis]

Draco,

I don't know about horary but natally the 4th is Mom and 10th is Dad. However.......you've got to really look at some charts because there are whole generations where 'Dad' simply wasn't there for varying reasons - and so 'Mom' had to take on the role of Dad also. I had to do this with my son as I raised him alone after a divorce at age 2 and never remarried. It can get tricky and you've got to dig deep and ask a lot of questions when you get confused about these sort of situations.

Also in some cases Mom wears the pants in the family and manifests more of those 10th house energies, and Dad is retiring, gentle, and/or a sort of 'Mr. Mom' and carries far more 4th house energies.

[Draco]

Hi Ms. Lazuli,

Thanks for posting back. Beautiful avatar by the way; hypnotic.

I understand what you said about the 4th being either the mother or a 'motherly' father and the 10th being either the father or a 'fatherly' mother. However, what about in the chart of a person who's childhood circumstances we know nothing about, such as a celebrity chart or the chart of a historical figure, with whom we might not neccesarily know these details about at first hand? Personally, upon considering this, I'm more for a 100% attribution to one parent always to one house. This is because if the father is more tender and nurturing for example, then in looking at the 10th house, its ruling sign, ruling planet, position of this planet in the chart and its relationship to other planets, signs and houses, then surely we could gather these clues anyway?

I myself was brought up in a home in which my father was absent, yet I would still look to the 10th house cusp to see where else it would lead me to in the chart. I would not look to both the 4th and 10th for my mother as this would seem surplus to requirements and add confusion to the analysis. Although a mother sometimes has to fulfil the obligations of the father, a mother is always a mother, so I would just look to the one house. To test this theory out, I looked at my 10th cusp and found it lead me to the symbols which revealed the emotional impact that my fathers absence had upon me, the nature of my emotional and psychological development as a consequence, and revealed some of the issues that I still have now which it would seem are connected to my fathers absence, that I had not realised until now. Looking at the 4th for my mother, this lead me on a chain of correspondences revealing how she looked after us, worked and provided for us and positively influenced my emotional and psychological development and encouraged my talents. it also showed how well we get along together and the things we have in common. Looking at the 11th for both of them as a pair, I found the ruler of this cusp symbolised the break up between them and it significantly aspected the 10th cusp showing how my father walked out and left us. I would give you a detailed description of all that I saw in the chart, but it is rather sensitive information to be posting onto a forum.

If you were to explore your sons chart using this technique you may find it rather insightful. Look to the cusp of the 11th, indicating both of you, his parents, what sign rules it? what planet rules that sign and where is it in the chart? How does it aspect to other planets/signs/houses. This will reveal to you how the break up with your partner affected him from his perspective. Looking to the 4th cusp do the same. This reveals your effect upon his life. Look to the 10th, and this will reveal the fathers effect upon him and more importantly the impact his fathers absence will have on him and how this may bear out in life. (positively or negatively) maybe you would be interested to look at your chart and see if you can trace your parental influences upon you in it. I am sure you will, as I just have.

Thankyou for your feedback Lapis, what you wrote inspired me to explore my chart in a way I have not done so before and it turned out to be an insightful exercise. I suppose I would agree with the 10th = father and 4th = mother, due to the symbolic messages I found in my chart in reference to these houses, which echoed the influence of each parent upon my psyche.

It would be interesting to hear back from you,

Regards,
Draco :wink: x

[Radu]

I imagine that those with an emphasis in Virgo/Libra will also be as bugged by this lack of order, uniformity and harmony as I am. Whoever you are, post back with your thoughts on this topic.
Here I am: Virgo Sun with Libra stellium ... ;)

Indeed, traditional astrology places the father in the 4th and the mother in the 10th when it is necessary to assign different houses for each, rather than placing both in the 4th, as 'parents'.
As for modern natal astrology, I've read that there is a version depending on the gender: for male subjects the traditional way stands true, for females the other way around: the father in the 10th, the mother in the 4th.

I find that there is some truth in this assignement as it is known that the boys tend to be more like their mother while the girls like the father. This is something I've noticed very often in many families. It could have something to do with this version of assigning houses.

I wonder, Draco, why would the 11th house represent the parents as a unit or our descendance, since there is the 4th house which already represents this concept: our roots, our origins, the ancestors.

The children are represented in the 5th house not as continuators of our blood line, but rather as a personal CREATION. The parents usually want their children to be better versions of themselves, that's why they create a physical body, an environment for their growth and education, they feel fulfillment in the children's achivements. The opposed 11th house is the house of hopes, wishes and aspirations that ultimately lead to the need to have children, to "pro-create".
No place for the parents here, I'm afraid.

[Draco]

Hi Radu,

I am Virgo Sun with Mercury/Saturn/Pluto stellium in Libra.

I was very interested to read of the technique involving swapping the 4th/10th houses according to the sex of the inquirer. I have not considered this before, but I feel this approach is worth experimenting with.

Regarding what you said about the 11th not being parents, I thought about this, and you're probably right. I was thinking of children (5th) being opposite to parents (11th) but in the wrong context. A more proper polarity would perhaps be children (5th) being opposite to adults (11th)?

Thankyou,
Draco :)

[Lapis]

I imagine that those with an emphasis in Virgo/Libra will also be as bugged by this lack of order, uniformity and harmony as I am. Whoever you are, post back with your thoughts on this topic.
Here I am: Virgo Sun with Libra stellium ... ;)

Indeed, traditional astrology places the father in the 4th and the mother in the 10th when it is necessary to assign different houses for each, rather than placing both in the 4th, as 'parents'.
As for modern natal astrology, I've read that there is a version depending on the gender: for male subjects the traditional way stands true, for females the other way around: the father in the 10th, the mother in the 4th.

Radu,

Wow, the father in 4 and mother in 10? That seems so.....strange. After reading what you said about gender, I remembered this from years ago and must be what I latched onto about the 4th being connected with the Mother (I'm female). Thanks for the further insights on this issue.

[kyle8921]

I have Mars and Jupiter both in House 4. Isn't this a complete contradiction? I'm 16, and I never had it easy with my family, ESPECIALLY with my father (like Mars is supposed to mean in House 4.) But, Jupiter in House 4 said that I felt loved as a child by my parents.

It's contradictions like this that make astrology confusing. I guess I always loved and felt secure by my mom, but I've never had a good life with my dad.

How should this be interpreted... Mars and Jupiter both in House 4?

[Light]

Hi Radu, Draco and everyone

I have just discovered this site and think its wonderful.

I am completely new to astrology (only having been studying it for about a year), but this topic was aptly timed! I was struggling with this, even my tutor couldn't explain it so I could see it, and there are so many conflicting opions out there. I have a confused enough brain without anyone adding to it! Thankfully, you have all made it make sense. Now I know where to put MY mother!

Draco:

I imagine that those with an emphasis in Virgo/Libra will also be as bugged by this lack of order, uniformity and harmony as I am.

Yep: I have a 4 planet Virgo Stellium and MC. Everything has to go into its boxes! :x


Cheers

hel :twisted:

[klara]

definetely 10 th house=mother & 4th house=father
i know what i'm telling saturn,uranus,neptune r in my 4th house :evil:
gemini is in the tenth house(no other planets there) :D

[sita]

this may be personally anecdotal, but i am a female with sagittarius in the tenth (dad?) and gemini in the fourth (mom). my mom is a gem and my dad is a sag.
??????!!!

[Lapis]

Hi sita,

I too have Sag on the 10th/MC and Gemini on the 4th and my Mom is a Sag and Dad's a Gemini.

[jim]

Hi,
I'm new here and it looks like an active forum. Although traditionally the 4th has represented the mother and the 10th the father, modern astrology still uses this as a general guideline, but recognizes that many times this is reversed. Aside from looking at related factors in the chart, the only real way to figure out which house represents which parent is to talk with the client about their parents and figure out which is which. It's not hard to do with practise, and than again there are those cases where both parents relate to both houses.....

Jim

[Elianah]

Just a couple of thoughts...

Although we assign the monikers "masculine" and "feminine" to the signs, houses and planets, in reality both of those trait streams are found within all signs, planets and houses. What has happened is that we have suppressed one stream in favor of the other in order to keep them responding to the dualism we witness with our eyes.

What the energy of all astrological features want us to realize is that energy is beyond our concepts of dualism and that all astrological features carry masculine/feminine, good/bad, easy/hard, benefic/malefic, etc. energy. Astrology asks each one of us to explore how we bring forth those dualities through each feature and make use of them in our lives.

Instead of looking of looking at the subjective terms of mother and father, perhaps we can look at where we feel we get the most nurturing, supportive, interdependent energy within our extended family and where we get the most disciplinarian, independent energy. Allow the energies to fully speak for themselves and allow yourself to be surprised where it leads you.

My 2¢ worth, let your mind explore the possibilities.

[C1]

Hi Elianah,
Your "2 cents" are like an offering
of an
alternative "currency" we can use,

like, when the old [economy] [reality] [rule]
seems like it's not really resonating
or working for us,

(and what you say is applicable in all aspects
of the evolutionary present...)

I will remember what you say....it's a clear focus to use...
well said, and
coincidentally in harmony with another discussion that started
recently in another topic area here,
dealing with "intuitive" or "channeled"
astrological chart analysis...

So it may all become "clear" as

we can begin to listen to the energies speak to us!

Bueno!
Thanks!
C1