sexual sadism

[Francesca]

How is sexual sadism likely to show in a chart? I saw the chart of a man with saturn and pluto conjunct in the 5th house opposed the moon in aquarius, who another astrologer claimed was sadistic sexually and inclined to be violent with women. There was also an exact square from mars to neptune, with nn conjunct Algol. Does this seem sufficient? Anyone have experience or research on this?

[23]

It all sounds right to me. I imagine it is pluto's work and any negative aspect plus other aspects (say involving mars, NN like you say), but that is my opinion off the top of my head.

[freedomlover]

Well, you have a focus in the 5th/11th and Leo/Aquarius, and in their native houses, so a double emphasis. All polarities have their inversions, and one of the inversions of this one is promiscuity. I read once that the Aquarius moon is prominent in **** stars charts. In fact, the whole Leo/Aquarius/Taurus/Scorpio fixed cross (in its inversion) concerns the misuse of sex, denegrating it to the mere act, with no love behind it. With this inversion, sex often involves the misuse of power, as well.

I also looked up some of the aspects in an astrology manual of mine:

(1) Saturn in 5th(Leo) "You tend to be cold and inhibited, which can lead to rejections is love, with challenging aspects to Saturn, you may experience psychological and sexual hangups."
(2)Pluto in 5th(Leo)"Can lead to sexual exploitation or the enjoyment of perverse pleasures, and it may bring about a desire to rule or to dominate."
(3)Saturn conjunct Pluto (in 5th (Leo)"You are ambitious for power and status. Your dedication to control can either be for good or evil. You are secretive about your plans and can become frustrated or suffer from deep obsessions."
(4) Moon in Aquarius (11th)- "Your feeling nature can be cold because you don't understand the emotional needs of someone else." (Also, "cold" mother - my note)
(5)Moon opposing Saturn "This usually indicates an unhappy childhood; perhaps there were disagreements with a domineering parent."
(6) Moon opposing Pluto "You tend to be a loner. You are intensely emotional, but your emotional flow is blocked in some way, and you would benefit from a positive use of your creative potential. These aspects indicate jealousy, impulsiveness, and sensuality. Perhaps due to your relationship with your parents, you may feel rejected at times, and you may seek drastic solutions to your problems. You must learn to handle your intolerance and fanaticism.(Charles Manson had this placement)
(7) Mars square Neptune (unknown houses and signs)"Your strong imagination and creative ability will enable you to reach great heights. However, a casual attitude can lead you into unsavory situations. You seem to look for trouble, and you are especially vulnerable to deceit. You must learn to handle alcohol or it could become a problem.
(8)Algol "Algol represents a strong consuming passion that may devour you with anger and rage. If one can contain an unconscious compulsion to take revenge, and from that passion return a more productive outcome, Algol is one of the most powerful stars in the sky. Whatever planet in affects in your chart will be charged with strong intense, sexual energy that has the potential to be wonderful, or if repressed, to lead to rage or violence. (Author Stephen King has North Node conjunct Algol.)"

From all of this, I would surely say that there was a very strong probability that this individual had severe issues concerning sex/control/women.

[Francesca]

Very interesting. I never would have guessed all that about this guy. He presents to the world as mild,unassuming and eager to be helpful. He is a registered nurse, and is married to a registered nurse. Her venus in Scorpio squares his Saturn in Leo and his Mars is conjunct her Uranus. It does make me wonder......

But I have Algol conjunct the NN as well and don't manifest like that. Stephen King IS a booger, though,isn't he?


Thanks.

[freedomlover]

Well, supposedly, I have the chart of a serial killer, but it doesn't manifest like that. ;) I have made good choices - maybe you have, too. I'm sure Algol conjunct NN could mean several things. Stephen King does do some good with his Algol themed stories. Even though they contain a lot of sadistic abuse and violence, "The Green Mile" and "The Shawshank Redemption" are both powerful pieces of literature showcasing the triumph of good over evil.
Maybe that's how Algol's influence could be used in your life- somehow turning the sadistic things you have experienced into triumph in some way - maybe helping others who have had similiar experiences.

[Francesca]

I have not experienced sexual sadism, but I do watch The Sopranos! LOL
Seriously, I understand your point. And thanks again for your very interesting comments.

[freedomlover]

A note for clarification: I did not mean to infer that you had experienced sexual sadism. I was referring to certain sadistic (in the general sense of the word)person(s) in your life that had caused you much difficulty.

I've never seen The Sopranos, so I'm afraid I don't get the joke. I'm sure quite a few others will, though.

[Virinchi]

venus afflictions can cause sexual sadism
or if 5th/7th house are badly afflicted by mars/saturn

[lilllybelle]

Well now, talking about being sexually aflicted you might want to take a look at my chart. I've been prone to violent tendecys in the bedroom in the past(I'm working on it people, I'm working on it). I also have had some very sexually violent fantasys in the past when I was going through a perticularly rough relationship full of dominace and control issues. These fantasies were disturbing to me and very plutonic in nature.South Node 23 aries, Venus23 aries, Mars24 aries in 8th house opposing North Node 23 Libra, Moon 24 Libra in 2nd house, Pluto 11 degrees Libra 2nd house. A lot of karmic stuff in the 2nd 8th house. L

[Francesca]

Wow, interesting. What about the rest of the chart?

Yesterday, I googled this subject and was suprrised to find that clinical definitions of sexual sadism and sexual masochism are not made on actual behavior, but on fantasies. I had always assumed that everybody had fantasies and that they were pretty much irrelevant unless acted upon. Not the case.

But it seems a contradiction because the fantasies have to be interfereing in your life and social functioning. Those would have to be pretty strong fantasies, and something doesn't make sense here.

It doesn't appear outre to associate Mars/Venus in Aries with rough sex per se, though.

[BorX]

Guys... you also forgot about the 4'th house, ( house of inner fantasies ), 8'th house ( house of sex ) or 2'th house too... bad placed planets in those houses could indicate about the subject you guys talking about.

[Francesca]

BorX, you zipped this bad guy up! He has Mars in Cancer in the 4th, Algol is in the 2nd and Juno and Eros in the 8th. If I ever see this dude coming, I will cross the street!

[lilllybelle]

Francesca, I was born on 5-29-77 @1:12 P.M. in Columbus, GA, USA. Besides a fixed t-square and my 2nd 8th house opposition I have a happy chart. The 2nd 8th house can cause for some messy sex issues of all kinds. The thing is I never acted on my fantasies. I wouldn't of felt comfortable in my own skin if I had acted on any of those fantasies. I'm not having them anymore. I do seem to be getting more and more aware of my agressive bedroom behaviors now, and I'm keeping them in check. I definately wouldn't only single out my mars venus placement as the culprit, though my mars venus are in aries, they are in the 8th house and they receive a direct opposition from my moon in the 2nd. I look at it as a whole. I just have some energy in me that has to be harnesed at times. L

[New Moon Libra]

I have to jump in here to comment that my Mars H1/Neptune H5 Square is a powerfully creative aspect. I'm not sure why some of you feel it relates to sadism. I've read that it can lead to disillusion, confusion, and delusion, manifesting sometimes as addictions. However, I'm pretty sure this aspect is the engine driving my writing (I'm an erotic fiction author), and maybe my Venus/Saturn Opposition from H2-H8. I'm convinced hard aspects like this are necessary for creative energy, but when you avoid embracing the evolutionary energy, it becomes deformed. But this can happen with any hard aspect. Sadism, even in the bedroom, is not afterall a sexual issue.

[freedomlover]

Note to clarify my post on this subject:

I was reading aspects out of a book. I did not have the time to type every single aspect. I just tried to hit the highlights, and posted any inversions. Certainly you cannot pigeonhole a person as having these kind of issues based on just one or two placements. But every placement I looked up on this guy seemed to point in the same direction. It still comes down to what kind of choices he makes, and how he uses the energy. However, he had enough arrows pointing in the same direction that it looks like he certainly has his struggles with these kind of issues.

To: NewMoonLibra: Notice that the aspects I copied for the Mars/Neptune square stated that it was an indicator of strong imagination and creative ability. That aspect, in and of itself, was not much of a significator for anger/sexual issues. However, when combined with all of the other aspects, it adds more fuel to the fire, so to speak, as it can make one prone to deceit and alcohol problems.

[New Moon Libra]

Freedomlover, I didn't mean to sound offended if that's how I sounded. I realized you were quoting, but I also know the negative interpretations many books and people have for hard aspects. I've learned to see them as opportunities. I was just over at the suicide thread reading about someone who claims they're suicidal and "hating" all these negative aspects in their chart--the implication that they're fated to be miserable.

I don't really believe a hard aspect can add "fuel to the fire" by its nature any more than an easy aspect can make the nativity a happy one. I have a relative with NO SQUARES, several trines. He lives a rather dull life, fishing most of the day and working odd jobs to have money. No girlfriend, no drive, no creativity. Is he happy?

You know, one of the coolest charts I ever saw was the actress Kathy Bates. You shoul dsee how her moon is afflicted.

These are just some thoughts off the top of my head.

[freedomlover]

Squares often create conflict, especially if it concerns Mars. They usually challenge the person to use the energy in a beneficial way. This usually does not create much of an issue in and of itself. But, when there are many other challenging aspects, it can certainly compound the lessons. For instance, I have a lot of squares to Mercury in the 12th house, and several other aspects that emphasize Mercury. I have had a battle of monumental proportions to overcome these issues. Whereas, if it had been just one square to Mercury and maybe another minor aspect, it would have been a walk in the park, in comparison, at least in the Mercury arena. At least that is my take on it.

And, no, newmoonlibra, I didn't really think you sounded offended. I just realized that some people may not realize when reading this that I did not copy EVERY definition for each aspect, and I didn't want anyone to get the wrong impression from what I wrote. I was just looking it all up, and when I saw such a pattern, I wrote down the aspect definitions that applied to the pattern. I didn't want anyone to think that I was asserting that these were the only ways the aspects could be interpreted. I realized that everyone wasn't in my head at the time I wrote to Francesca, and maybe would not understand why I only wrote these particular aspects. Your comment just caused me to see that everyone may not take it the way I meant it. (More of my "squares to Mercury" rearing their heads, I'm afraid. I'm trying to make a conscious effort to be more clear with what I'm thinking and what I'm saying or writing. Please excuse this work under construction.;))

I really like Kathy Bates. She's one of my favorite actresses. I would be interested in seeing her chart.

[Francesca]

Newmoonlibra, why do you say sexual sadism is not really a sexual issue?
From what I read, there is a big difference between something like sadistic personality disorder, where the person engages in sadistic behavior as a general part of their personality, and sexual sadism which is classed as a paraphilia, or sexual disorder.

Perhaps as an ex social worker, I am going too much by the book here, but if a person usually or most often or at all times uses the suffering of others to achieve sexual arousal, that's clearly a sexual disorder. Sadistic behavior needn't be evident in the rest of his functioning.

I have been thinking about everybody's comments, and about what I know of this man, and I feel that his violent or sadistic sexual acting out is probably due more to a violent temper around the issues of rejection and nurturing. Mars is in Cancer where sex and nurturing are often confused. Moon opposition Saturn can show abandonment/rejection by mother. Pluto opposition moon is loaded with anger, control and sexuality issues. This may, after all, not show true clinical sexual sadism.

Anyway, thank you all for your input. It has been most thoughtprovoking.

[New Moon Libra]

I say sadism is not really a sexual disorder because of what you point out: "his violent or sadistic sexual acting out is probably due more to a violent temper around the issues of rejection and nurturing". He only attaches his violence to sex. Rape is not considered a crime of sex as much as a crime of violence, right? It's not the sex per se but the power that gets the rapist off. Therefore, I think for pursuing sadism of any kind (sexual or not) in astrology one should focus on those aspects of anger not of sex. As far as what I think of the professionals who classify people, I would rather not get into that lengthy discussion. Simply note that those categories change with politics as much as science.

[Francesca]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. My view is the rapist expresses his need for power/control/violence through the vehicle of sex.As you probably know, a rapist who has been chemically castrated or is unable to perform will often rape with an object.

This man does not need to cause suffering or exert dominence for arousal/satisfaction as in true paraphilia. Neither is he a rapist, to my knowledge. From my knowledge of him as an individual and from his chart, I feel he is likely to experience rage and control issues when he perceives himself as rejected or abandoned by a woman. Sex and nurturing are confused or fused in his personality. I'm not an expert, but I feel this is a little different.

While I am very aware of the politics of classification and diagnosis, I am also aware of the need for a consistent definition of particular phenomena, or discussion cannot take place accurately. After all, neither professionals nor astrologers should be "classifying people" as such, but only classifying phenomena. Thanks for your input.

[Frisiangal]

'Sadism' is a word associated with the Marquis de Sade, who is renowned for his indulgance in verbal and physical sexual perversity.
Some hints regarding a planetary configuration for sadism might be found in his chart; 2nd June 1740. The A.W. archives offer a suggested birth time of 5 p.m., Paris, France.

F.

[Arian Maverick]

'Sadism' is a word associated with the Marquis de Sade, who is renowned for his indulgance in verbal and physical sexual perversity.
Some hints regarding a planetary configuration for sadism might be found in his chart; 2nd June 1740. The A.W. archives offer a suggested birth time of 5 p.m., Paris, France.

F.

Thank you for this interesting tidbit of information! :)

I have uploaded the Marquis' natal chart below:

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/5012/marquisdesadenatalchartcs9.png (http://imageshack.us)

Arian Maverick

[Francesca]

Interesting,Mav. Look at the grand trine in earth. ANd sun and Chiron in the house of obsession and control. But was he so much the sadist as the masochist? I never read much of his stuff. What do you see in this chart?

[Rubella]

Wow,

That is one heavily aspected map... so many configurations... the Yod, a kite, grand trine... this should be a case study map.

I really like it :)

[Arian Maverick]

Two planets commonly associated with sex, Pluto and Mars, are located in the signs of their natural rulership. If this approximate birth time is accurate, there is also a heavy eighth house emphasis.

It is a shame that the Marquis chose to use his powerful energies in such a self-satisfying matter...

Arian Maverick

[Frisiangal]

Arian Maverick: Thank you for this interesting tidbit of information! :)

As one of my dear Virgo Sun friends once remarked when I beat her at Trivial Pursuit by knowing who the role model for Tinker Bell was in the cartoon movie, as well as the secret word used by Captain Marvel,

"You have a mind full of useless information!"

And I wasn't into astrology at the time.:D

F.

[23]

I take it his chart has been corrected to take into account calendar changes.

I haven't read others' comments but yeah, he's certainly into sex isn't he? Look at all that stuff in the 8th and someone mentioned, chiron is there too, conj sun - so it really does reflect on his reputation and who he is. Plus Neptune is there too - gives it a watery out of space feel and NN. Plus 8th house cusp is gemini - experimentation and a need for variety. Retro Uranus sitting in opp to NN - some kinky stuff plus IC Aqu. Plus Mars in 6th - almost his service to have sex if you know what I mean.

Also pluto in the 12th (behind the asc, with asc in Sco)!

[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade

Also the 9th house stuff indicates his philosophical interests

[Francesca]

Interesting,23. I guess he was the sadist. I recall now that masochism is named after someone named Masoch. Well, he certainly lived the most extreme version of his chart, didn't he. How in the world did he seduce a 13 yr old girl and keep her for 4 years as a fat old man? ah well, it takes all kinds.

[23]

Must be magnetic in a perverted way!

Also with Nep in 8th, he uses the pleasure-pain associated with this house to transcend.

I forgot to mention that his 8th house ruler, Merc widely conj his DC in Tau. Seeks someone who is into earthly pleasures and is experimental.

[appleshampoozie]

hi everyone, i'm new to this forum and wouldn't say i was very good at astrology yet, although i have been learning for a while.
i found this topic of sexual sadism interesting, and have struggled with my violent tendancies towards sex myself.
i have read many interpretations of my chart and there has been mention of this type of behaviour, however i am interested in your views on my chart and if they coinside with my possible repressed sexual energy?
i'm not sure how to post a link to my chart or a picture, so i shall post my details instead.
i hope this is not too much trouble for the fine people on this board and comments would be greatly appreciated.
thank you

apple shampoozie

born 26th january 1987
15:00 in wales

[Frisiangal]

[QUOTE]
i found this topic of sexual sadism interesting, and have struggled with my violent tendancies towards sex myself.
i have read many interpretations of my chart and there has been mention of this type of behaviour, however i am interested in your views on my chart and if they coinside with my possible repressed sexual energy?



Hi,
As you didn't provide a town, I took central Wales as a coordinate. It provides a mid-Cancer Ascendant, which would be the case in whichever part you were born. This also produces an 8th house Sun in Aquarius which, at this time, is questionable. It might just slide into the 7th house of relationships.
I study astrology from the viewpoint that inner psychological development creates outer events.

You share a similar configuration to Sade, in that both Mars and Pluto are in their own signs. They quincunx (150 degr.) each other, an aspect of strain and tension. You also have Sun leading in a square with Pluto, and Moon leading in a semi-square Pluto, indicative that the plutonian energy lies deep within you. You need to be or to feel that you are in control (ask yourself WHY?) but have difficulty directing it. You could be a victim as well as assailant of violent behaviour but the need for control arises for the same reason.

Aquarius is the sign that detaches itself from emotional bonding in order to gain its independence of spirit. It can sometimes have or go to extreme or bizarre tendancies in order to do so. Moon in Sagittarius conjunct Uranus, modern ruler Aquarius, is not concerned with feelings of emotion rather than separating from them in order to become more objective. This could be difficult if everything one undergoes has to pass through the window of Cancer Ascendant that experiences personal hurt and pain so easily. Better to turn off feeling altogether, Black Moon Lilith in Cancer in 12th opposing Neptune, using the opposite sex as a vehicle/image for sexual satisfaction and release rather than expression of one's deepest caring emotions. If you are female, you can probably take yourself out of yourself, enacting a role as if you are not physically participating. If you are male, you seek the total submission of the feminine.......possibly even in yourself;). Again, the question is WHY !

I get the strong feeling of 'estrangement' and 'separation' from family early in life. As you are still very young, have shown an interest in astrology, there must be someone within you that is seeking answers to your behavious pattern. You might find counselling in which you can talk about yourself, your views, other people's effects upon you that influence what's going on inside YOU, of great help. Natal Chiron is in Gemini opposing Venus-Saturn. You withhold the positive giving of TRUE love and affection for some reason known only to yourself. This could suggest an inner wound/ pain in being unable to relate to people on an everyday level. Unravelling the reason for it will be very constructive in channeling your energies in a fashion that suit your life's purpose and not your sexual tendancies.:D

F.

[appleshampoozie]

thank you for your reply frisiangal. just to fill in the blanks, i am female and born in porthcawl in wales (on south coast) so i think my aquarius sun is in the 8th house.

your response seemed quite on the ball. and i have been interested in astrology for a very long time in order to explain my odd behaviour, but i suppose im not getting anywhere with it. maybe counselling, as you suggested would be a good idea.
id love to go into great detail now to explain myself inorder to get a more detailed reponse. but i wouldn't expect anyone to reply so i won't.
[sorry, feeling a little weird today]

thanks again for your response F. was most helpful
appleshampoozie

[pisceskitty]

Goodness...

What a fascinating topic! I wonder if my former lover/friend/muse had these issues. he has Pluto/uranus/mars in Virgo in the 11th opp. Saturn in Pisces in the 5th[he has Chiron in Pisces in the 5th also] I have sun/venus/mercury all in Pisces in the 5th. I felt so overpowered by this man! He would reveal fantasies to me that were something else. Alot of them involved dominating women, punishing women, wanting to choke a woman while having sex etc....

[Francesca]

Appleshampoozie, great detail into sadistic/masochistic fantasies would probably be inappropriate for this forum (but great to a counselor!), however, disclosures about your life and experience are of interest to most astrology students, so feel free. Maybe someone can respond with something helpful. Good luck.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.