suicide

[Katles]

Does anyone have any comments about possible suicide found in a birth chart.

[Light]

Katles

I've read that a JUpiter/Neptune trine can indicate suicidal inclinations and was common among suicides. www.nodeorama.com/viewtopic.php?id=2436 (http://www.nodeorama.com/viewtopic.php?id=2436).

I'm inclined to agree - having a 12th house neptune trining Jupiter! :) I don't do very well with Jupiter transits at all!! I just can't see Mr big and bouncy all things wonderful as anything like that!

Any help, or is it too pessimistic and fatalistic - oops tr nep has his eye on my Jupiter!!

hel

[Light]

There is also an arabic part of suicide :mad: . I don't know how to calculate it, I only know its conjunct my POF!!:p Haven't worked that one out yet.

hel

[unukalhai]

i've only considered suicide in astrology studies through one chart, which I don't believe I even have the natal chart for anymore. a friend of mine had a friend who did the unthinkable, and i had a look at it. the major factor I saw was saturn opposing the natal uranus, meaning she felt restricted in her sense of individuality and identity, which quite well described the reason for her unfortunate decision. her inability (restriction) to expressing herself, and the hardships it caused her, drove her into a very deep form of depression and self-doubt. with no outlet, and nobody who she really connected with, she was helpless, or so she felt.

i would imagine there would be predisposition in the natal chart as well, but i didnt see it...

jupiter/neptune linkage can cause excessive idealism, and make this world seem really drab. if not properly handled, that could be a major problem.

[Arian Maverick]

Here is an interesting article I found online: Suicidal Tendency in Natal Charts (http://www.geocities.com/saleemdada/astro.html)

Suicidal Tendency in Natal Charts
It is more than 20 years now since the time I started studying Astrology. The reason for this study at that time was to disprove the subject but it did not take long for me to understand that my thought regarding it was incorrect. Astrology does have the power to offer the interpretation of a person’s character accurately by the natal chart if a person has its good understanding. However, a layman wrongly takes it as an exact science or a system of Fortune-Telling. In fact, its laws are mostly of a psychological nature that tells us the tendencies in a person and not all of his personality for sure. Also it is not a system of prediction or telling the future as taken even by some of the learned astrologers of our time. But here I do not intend to forward an argument for the nature of Astrology as I take it, instead I want to present some interesting observation regarding Suicidal Tendencies that are clearly shown in natal charts.

For my study, I took the Birth Data of 30 ordinary persons that had committed Suicide, with some effort and search from the Internet. Please note that I do not have any personal knowledge about these persons and have taken the data as presented without any scrutiny. Also please note that though I have done this mentioned work carefully and studiously yet as I have managed it individually so there remains a small chance of error in one or two data. Any similarity with any one that has departed by Suicide must be considered as by chance as I would not present any names here and also would not give the dates of birth though I have saved them all with back-up at my computers. This data is uniformly spread ranging from 1950 to 1986 with three entries from 1950’s, four entries from 1960’s, nine entries from 1970’s and fourteen entries from 1980’s. With this data, I have also observed a second much smaller data of 6 greatly famous persons that chose their death by suicide (or are said to have chosen it that way) that was available for study. I would present the result of my observation for this Data too. Again I have studied a third data of somewhat famous persons (but not having a global fame) and I would also remark on that. Without any reservation I would accept the point that this is a very small data for observation. However I have tried to give here a simple hypothesis to check in each data and it does provide an initiative in this regard. Much work must be done to validate these results on a large scale so as to conform the assumption presented here.

In the very beginning of the observation of the first data that was based on ordinary persons that had committed suicide, I noted an interesting phenomenon that the natal charts of almost all the persons had Mars and Saturn in play. Mostly I found that Mars and Saturn were very near to each other as seen from the Earth and sometimes they had specific difference of degrees that was commonly accepted as an unfavorable planetary configuration in astrology. At both of these positions for this first data, there was at least one planet present in the sign Scorpio (the sign of Death) and mostly it was Jupiter or Uranus. Now in this study it would have been a wonderful find if any simple configuration of the planets did prove to hold good. Keeping this in mind, I assumed a set of planetary configuration involving both of these planets Mars and Saturn (both known as Malefic in Astrology), and on that self-devised criterion tested the position of these planets in the natal charts of the persons in study.

The Assumption that I took was that “If the planet Mars is within 30 degrees with the planet Saturn (equal to one sign or one house in astrology) or it is in square aspect with Saturn by astrological standard (equal to 90 degrees with the difference of 8 degrees allowed). And with this configuration, any one of the other planets is in the Sign Scorpio (specially Jupiter or Uranus), it shows the danger of committing Suicide”.

I checked the assumption practically by the charts presented through a Computer Program and the findings were so very interesting that I would like to share them with you. Among the thirty Charts, fifteen had Mars and Saturn within 30 degrees (eight were 16 to 30 degrees apart while seven were less than that) and a planet was present in the Sign Scorpio in all except for one. Please note that I have taken a difference of 30 degrees purposely here due to the observation of the data at hand while in Astrology there is a configuration with allowance of commonly 8 to 10 degree orb only that is named conjunction. Jupiter was the body that occurred at Scorpio in five cases while Uranus was the other body that occurred in same number of cases here. Among the other five charts, Pluto and Mercury occurred once each while two had Mars and Saturn themselves in Scorpio. One chart had no planet in Scorpio in this category though it had Mars & Saturn in conjunction by astrological standard and Mercury was in conjunction to Sun. In this chart, Pluto (The Ruler of Scorpio) made this same aspect (conjunction) to Moon. Please note that both the lights are taken to be the most important feature of any chart alongwith Ascendant and the aspects specially conjunction have a great importance here.

Alternately for the assumption, I had to see if Saturn was in Square to Mars but with astrological standard, with any of the other planets (Sun and Moon included) in Scorpio. Five of the remaining charts conformed to this that had a square of both the Malefic in them. A planet was present in each case here except for one that had a planetary configuration called a T-square among Mars, Saturn and Pluto. The planet in Scorpio in other four charts was Saturn, Venus, Neptune and again Neptune respectively.

There were ten charts in this data that did not conform to any part of the assumption except for a planet in Scorpio that was present in all but two of these remaining charts. However, even in these ten charts, it was a very interesting fact to note that seven had both malefic planets Saturn and Mars linked with Pluto always by favorable aspects. Moreover five of these seven charts had one of these three planets in Scorpio while the couple that did not have any planet in Scorpio, both had a grand trine between Mars, Saturn and Pluto. It seems to me as if the planet of death (Pluto) was providing the missing link by favorable aspects to both malefic planets to these persons and the cumulative effect was as if Mars and Saturn were in conjunction as in other nativities with a planet in Scorpio.

These Findings are most remarkable as they clearly tell us that natal charts do have a key to providing the disclosure of Suicidal Tendency though much work is yet needed to validate this observation due to the small number of the data collected. Please note that 27 out of 30 charts taken have a conformation to the set criterion in some way or other. Considering the favorable connections of Pluto to both the Malefic at one time in the natal chart as an unfavorable aspect among both, it is safe to say that the unfavorable link of Mars and Saturn is dangerous for normal tendencies. With a planet preferably Jupiter or Uranus in Scorpio, this tendency increases much and may guide a person to kill his own self considering it the best or perhaps the only way out. Although this study needs much broader study for sure with the same criterion yet the observation here do seem to guide us to understand ourselves better and make us capable to deal with the problem of Suicide that is mistakenly taken as a solution to problems by ignorant. It is interesting to note that I have not found Neptune that is the planet of confusion, self-sacrifice and daydreaming much connected with this problem though purely by astrological consideration, it had to play a major role here.

Now, observing the Second Data that is the birth charts of highly famous persons that committed or said to have committed Suicide, I noticed some common features again. Here, Mars did not have a prominent role and Neptune was again not very significant though it did appear to have a part in this set-up. The main actors at this stage were Jupiter, Saturn and interestingly, the Moon. Seeing these three bodies in play and also a role of fixed signs, I devised a simple assumption to check. It goes that “If Jupiter or Saturn is in conjunction with the Moon and the remaining planet of the two occupies a sign that is fixed by nature, there is a great danger of committing suicide”. It is most interesting to note that all the six Birth Charts I took for study fully conformed to this assumption. However the sample taken due to non-availability of much facts and figures, is so meager that the hypothesis has to be checked on a much greater scale with many charts of the highly famous people that have ignorantly committed suicide. Here I would like to remark that Astrology tells us that the conjunction of Jupiter and Moon is good for optimism and a sound mind. It is a favorable aspect if other indications agree. I do not challenge this (in fact I do accept the rule) but I would like to say here plainly that we are in for quite an addition of text in the aspects of the planets indeed. For the present, let us check the available charts of these highly famous persons that committed suicide.

The most obvious example of this is the ruthless Nazi leader of Germany who wounded not only many humans but also humanity itself. Adolph Hitler was born on 20th April 1889 with the last degrees of Libra at the Ascendant. His chart clearly vouches for the given assumption as he has Moon and Jupiter in conjunction while the third body of this trio i.e. Saturn is in Leo, the fixed fire sign. There may be other indication for his suicide yet the main theme of the trio is clearly visible.

Elvis Presley (born January 8th, 1935) had Saturn in conjunction to Moon while Jupiter, the third body of the Trio, was in Scorpio, the fixed water sign. It is interesting to note that a favorable aspect between Jupiter and Neptune is always present when Jupiter is not with Moon in such cases. Here we find Jupiter in sextile to Neptune. It seems that Saturn and Jupiter both need to touch the mind in the cases of these famous lives. Moon is always a representative of a sound mind while Neptune is the artistic mind that likes to dream even when fully awake.

Michel Gauquelin (born November 13th, 1928) was a German astrologer of repute. He has some interesting theories to his credit and has written a number of books on the subject. His chart shows the Moon in conjunction with Saturn while Jupiter is in Taurus, the fixed Earth sign, with a Trine from Neptune. His Sun is in Scorpio, indicating his interest in occult matters clearly.

Ernest Hemmingway (born July 21st, 1899) was a classical writer of fiction. His work “The old man and the sea” is a well-written story that also shows his grasp of the understanding of human nature. He chose to depart from the world in the same fashion as his father did and committed suicide in 1961. His chart shows a wide conjunction of Moon and Saturn while his Jupiter was in Scorpio. Here Jupiter had a Trine from Neptune. The Moon that plays an important part in these cases seem to have a say due to fact that these all have a public image and they know quite well that their actions would affect the feelings of the people specially their fans. Please note that the Moon in Astrology is very closely related to the people in general. Let us take another famous case here.

It was August of 1962 when she chose to die at the age of 36, according to the popular acceptance. Marylyn Monroe, who was born on 1st of June 1926, was one of the most beautiful actresses of her times and her suicide (if it was that) was a very sad incident for millions of her fans. She had a conjunction of Moon and Jupiter in Aquarius, the Fixed Air Sign with Saturn in Scorpio, the Fixed Water Sign. Neptune was also present in a fixed sign Leo opposing Moon and Jupiter while squaring Saturn. With so much fixed in her chart and with the trio taking its position well she needed a lot of strength to combat the given situation. She did well for many years after a very sad childhood yet in the last did lose her hopes and will to go on with life.

The last of the charts in this data is for Virginia Woolf who was a wonderful novel-writer. She was born at 25th January 1882. She had Saturn, Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto in the Fixed Sign Taurus, with Moon in conjunction to Saturn. The Hypothesis is still valid as is quite clear. This completes the record of suicide among the most famous according to the data given here and amazingly it conforms 100% to the set Criterion.

Although the data presented does prove the given assumption totally yet much work must be done on this same assumption for conformation. This is especially more important now when we find cases of terror such as 9/11. It is a point to note that the Moon was sandwiched between Jupiter and Saturn; and Mars (and Pluto) was in opposition to this Trio of Suicide on that deadly date. It is the Plain Truth that you may conform by your own self. And again this sad incident that shook the world came in the tenure of a person (Mr. G.W. Bush) who has the Moon in conjunction to Jupiter & Neptune, with Saturn very near to a Fixed Sign Leo that already has three planets present inside. The planets in the heavens seem to say that if all is well set and no one is interested in combating our deadly influence, let us do the bad work. So the stars do play well but the theme is for us to understand. I do not say that all such configuration would lead to the suicidal tendency or an attempt for it but I do want this phenomenon checked on a big scale so that we could save many people if we understand the phenomenon correctly. The main reason to present this paper is that we all by collective effort get a tool to prevent such persons that guide their frustration out by a wrong outlet, creating trouble for all the persons around. Please note that my religion Islam commands to save lives as much as possible as the Quran tells us that “To kill one innocent life is to kill the whole humanity and to save one life is to save the whole humanity”. Due to this I have tried hard to form rules that may benefit my fellow beings. May Allah give His Blessing to all of the people by the True Knowledge of all things.

As the odds against the assumptions seem to be surprisingly low I am positive in saying that we do have something here that must be checked thoroughly and if it holds to the test, put to use with such measures that many lives may be saved. Now let us take the final data.

The third and the last data that I checked in this regard was for the persons that were somewhat famous yet not on a global level. These also show the same trend for Moon and the fixed signs though Saturn and Jupiter were less involved here. Most of the charts had a square to the Moon and the planet squaring the Moon was Pluto or Uranus. I have also seen that Chiron has prominence in the natal charts of those who lead to mass suicide or ask for it. In this data, hypothesis that was to be taken to test needed some effort but I took what I thought best as “Moon when comes in square to Uranus or Pluto and the Fixed Signs are pronounced, it shows an inclination towards Suicide”. Checking this assumption on 18 persons randomly selected from the site listed below, I found interesting results.
www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-famous-suicides

I studied the charts of (1) Dana Plato (actress), (2) Kart Cobian (musician), (3) G. Eastman (Film Roll fame), (4) Brian Samuel (manager of “Beetles”), (5) Goebbles (Nazi Propagandist), (6) David Kelly (Scientist), (7) Felix Hansdorf (Mathematician), (8) Sarah Kane (Playwright), (9) Hamelore Kohl (wife of Mr. Helmut Kohl), (10) Fridolen Andermat (Swiss Politician), (11) Gerard de Nerval (Poet), (12) Walter Benjamin (Cultural Theorist), (13) Herman Brood (musician), (14) Gilles Deluze (French Philosopher), (15) Romain Garry (Russian Novelist), (16) Charlotte Perkins (feminist, essayist), (17) Stephen Zureigg (writer) and (18) Louis Althusser (writer on ideology).

Now, some of these charts proved the criterion in total where Moon was in square to Uranus or Pluto and the Fixed Signs were pronounced while some were totally out of this plan. When more than 3 planets are situated in fixed signs they are pronounced i.e. prominent and if both the lights Sun & Moon are in fixed sign then even one more body in a fixed sign would make the fixed signs prominent. The charts that conformed the test totally were number 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 13, 15, 16 and 17. However, the chart of No. 16 had Moon in conjunction to Mars and it needed the aid of Mars to link to Pluto. These are Nine charts in total, a good margin for the test. The charts that did not conform to test were 2, 9, 12, 14, 18 but even four of these showed some aspect of Moon to Saturn (an odd player here) and a favorable aspect from Moon to Pluto (sextile in two, trine in one and conjunction in one). The remaining charts 5, 8, 10 and 11 though again did not conform yet the fixed signs were prominent in ALL. The result seems 50:50 at this hypothesis but seeing the trends, some more observation may lead to a better idea of the configuration to be seen.

I am sure that if we observe the world around us and its influences well we would make ourselves much better people. Wood, Iron and Bronze have developed a lot that we erroneously call development of Man. It is about time that we do develop by increasing our Knowledge about ourselves, as this Knowledge is Power that would lead us to better ourselves and all the people of the world.

Arian Maverick

[23]

I suspect that this might be the same article as the one AM just put up, but here goes:

http://www.widgetsworld.co.uk/articles.php?article=76

I am still in the process of reading all this stuff but the jupiter-neptune trine thing deeply disturbs me. I have this aspect and I have jup conj my asc in 1st and singleton Nep in the 8th in Sag. I believe that this aspect is a blessing and curse, it adds sensitivity and compassion to my chart but yes, it makes me idealist and take people on face-value. Then I get crushed and disappointed in things and people. I have gotten depressed and thought of suicide but I would say in the scheme of things, I would never really do it - I wouldn't have the guts to.

I can understand how the articles mention mars and saturn being in close proximity. I am sure others and myself have felt something like a mars-saturn conjunction and how chafing and frustrating it feels.

[Arian Maverick]

Yes, it appears that I am becoming something of a hypochondriac myself; although I do not posses a trine aspect between my natal Jupiter and Neptune (or any trine aspects for that matter with the exception of the North Node and Chiron), Mars and Jupiter are within thirty degrees of each other--an indication of schizophrenia according to another article written by the same author:

I have seen in my study that many of those who were and are taken as having strange minds in their lives and sometimes having different attitudes than normally accepted in a given society to some matters of life (not Schizophrenic of course) had Mars and Jupiter within 30 degrees in the Natal Chart irrespective of the placement of their Moon or occurrance of conjunctions (consider Edgar Cayce, Nostradamus, Anderson Magician, Shelley who is known for his eccentric behavious at times, Mike Tyson etc.) but my study clearly denotes that the nearing of Mars & Jupiter is not enough for denoting amazing responses to matters of life in a regular manner as Moon must also be in play with these two plus a number of conjunctions.

The last sentence of this excerpt would console me greatly if my natal moon did not form a partile (exact) aspect to my natal Uranus. Referring back to the article Suicidal Tendency in Natal Charts (http://www.geocities.com/saleemdada/astro.html):

The third and the last data that I checked in this regard was for the persons that were somewhat famous yet not on a global level. These also show the same trend for Moon and the fixed signs though Saturn and Jupiter were less involved here. Most of the charts had a square to the Moon and the planet squaring the Moon was Pluto or Uranus. I have also seen that Chiron has prominence in the natal charts of those who lead to mass suicide or ask for it. In this data, hypothesis that was to be taken to test needed some effort but I took what I thought best as “Moon when comes in square to Uranus or Pluto and the Fixed Signs are pronounced, it shows an inclination towards Suicide”.

Perhaps my saving grace is an emphasis upon cardinal (not fixed) signs ;)

Arian Maverick

[23]

Luckily, my moon is at most in a conjunction with pluto (if you accept a 9 degree conjunction) and it bears no aspectual relationship with uranus. I guess these aspects have got to do with maladjusted intense emotions about death (squ plu) and spontaneous/erratic emotions (squ ura)

But I do have Ura in sco and they say that is a factor. I suppose because it is so spontaneous and in this case, spontaneity of death.

Also my Saturn and Mars are in a semi-square, but as the article says, its has to be less than 30 deg, so I'm out there too.

[Light]

4th house Pisces jupiter trining scorpio neptune - longing to return to the great womb or longing for death to escape? Tight conjunction between Moon and Pluto. Uranus and Saturn in quincunx and, are brought together through rulership. Its all there.. Mars inconjunct a Sun/Merc/Saturn Conjunction - I can't get ti right :)


If the statitsics by that author are right, then whole swates of people will be committing suicide at any one time.

Another of his articles says about criminal minds: www.geocities.com/saleemdada/astro-2.html (http://www.geocities.com/saleemdada/astro-2.html)

I have also seen that mostly two of the planets from Pluto, Mars and Jupiter (the three important planets in regards to Criminal Tendency) seem to be at 30 degrees from each other anywhere in such nativities and this phenomenon was present in 36 charts here and this also is a very high occurrance for sure. This observation gives the third point for the Criminal Tendency and that is "when two of the planets from Pluto, Mars and Jupiter are within 30 degrees to each other with Jupiter preferably but not necessarily in Cancer, Libra, Scorpio or Sagittarius, the person in study has a criminal tendency".

Are there really whole batches of people born at the same time who are criminals? Will everyone born in 2006 be a criminal (Mars and Jup in Sco and Pluto in Sagg) be a criminal? He's massaging the statistics, I think. But then, thats the wonderful thing about statisics and astrology - you can make them both say what you want them to say :) ;)

Back to topic before ye olde moderator moves me :p ...Suicide is a decision - to stay or go. It's just has different consequences to the run of the mill decisions. So I wonder of transiting mercury has hit a particularly sensitive point on a natal chart?

Anyway, must go (whilst I'm still here)

light

[Missa]

I have suicidal tendencies, in fact it's a miracle that I'm still alive. I don't know what exact things on my chart could cause it, it's mostly due to things that have happened to me in my life. But if we look at this astrologically, I have Moon in aries in 8th house badly aspected, and Moon's ruler Mars in first house forming a t-cross with Uranus in 4th house and Chiron in 10th house. I also have Pluto, South node, IC and Saturn in Scorpio in 4th house.

My father, who committed suicide earlier this year, had Moon, Mars and Saturn in Scorpio. He also had Pluto square Mars, and basically lots of squares on his chart. Another relative, who committed suicide about 8 years ago, had Pluto conjunct Mars with 0-degree orb. His Saturn makes several squares and forms a t-cross with Lilith and Jupiter. Uranus conjunct Lilith also looks interesting, but I'm not sure if it causes suicidal tendencies...

[Katles]

Missa I'm really sorry about your dad.

I have really bad suicidal thoughts and they just get worst and worst, I have tried to get help for several years since I was about 15 but the mental health services over here are rubbish. I have done loads of reserch myself on mental health on the internet and I'm sure I have split personality disorder amougst over things, but they just won't listen.

When I look at my chart, I't just makes me worst I think. It looks obvious where this all comes from. I have always felt sort of out of step with society and very introverted in social settings, even though I feel deep down I have somthing to say. I hate the fact Uranus is in the fifth house, square Venus and Mercury both in Virgo and trine my ascendant and midheaven plus I have a ses.square between my moon and Uranus. I have Saturn and Mars both in Scorpio in the 4th house which I have read causes suicidal tendencies, plus my moon is opposed pluto also in the fourth house. I have also read that Mercury square Uranus and Uranus moon aspects causes suicidal tendencies too. Plus my moon and Uranus are both square chiron which can't be good. Plus I have read on the internet that Grand trines are good but I don't think they are, I find in my opinion they make it hard to make they most of your potential and sap your energy. I am also very self counscious and this is from my sun in the first house I think. Drinking is a horrible porblem for me to and I have read that this could be not helped by having moon in Aries plus Neptune in the fifth house. Very bad concentration and strong imagination which is impossible to turn off, this must be my sun and moon trine neptune and jupiter conjunct neptune. I also have Mars parralel neptune and neptune parralel Uranus, but I am not sure if this is significant.

I know that we can learn from astrology and use the good parts and learn from the bad, but in my case I feel that things have gone to far and I can't seem to get any countrol. It's really horrible and I wouldn't wish this horrible feeling on anyone.

I am not writing this for people to feel sorry for me, I know there are people in the world who are much more worst off then me. But I can't help it if I feel like total **** and can't seem to find a way out of this horrible black hole and the health services won't even help me.

Thanks for your comments

[Arian Maverick]

Katles,

If you are feeling suicidal, PLEASE GET HELP NOW!

I highly recommend this article, which has received nearly five million hits...you are NOT ALONE.

Suicide: Read This First (http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/index.html)

Arian Maverick

[lilllybelle]

Katles, listen to Arian.

[lilllybelle]

I don't know how to use the quote button. The person who wrote the article that arian posted said all of the people who had commited suicide in his or her study, except one, had a planet in scorpio. Well wouldn't most people have at least one planet in scorpio ecspecially when you consider how long the outer planets stay in a sign? Lilllybelle

[New Moon Libra]

Hi all, Arian Maverick turned me on to this post (thank you).

I posted on my blog (http://www.teresawymore.com/index.asp?view=plink&id=173)about a friend who killed himself when I was 17. Actually, he had been a boyfriend, but I broke up with him about 9 months earlier. Danny had an intellect unmatched. He was a geek, but not a techno geek—a D&D geek. Very creative and sensitive, and that’s how I got to know him, by playing D&D weekends in 1980. Ten days before he graduated highschool he put a shotgun in his mouth and blew his head off. His mother came home from work on Saturday afternoon and found his body in the basement. He left a note for his current girlfriend which said, “it’s not your fault.” No one even suspected this would happen.

I’m not sure why all this is consuming me 25 years later. I imagine some transits or progressions to my chart, maybe the fact that I have children now and realize just how much he missed, how unable he was to see that things change. There is talk here about suicidal depression, and that may be, but when I look at Danny’s chart I see anger. I think to do what he did to his mother took a lot of anger—maybe misdirected, but anger, not sadness.

In any case, I’ve looked at the things you’ve posted, quite intrigued, and summed up what I found for suicidal tendencies. Danny’s natal, progressed and transits on suicide date is below. I don’t have his birth time but have a real sense he had Gemini ascendant (if so, some more interesting aspects in addition to those listed below):

1. Jupiter/Neptune trine [ danny has Jupiter/Neptune square ]

2. Moon when comes in square to Uranus or Pluto and the Fixed Signs are pronounced [ danny has loose square Moon/Uranus by progression; fixed signs (aquarius) ]

3. If the planet Mars is within 30 degrees with the planet Saturn or it is in square aspect with Saturn. And with this configuration, any one of the other planets is in the Sign Scorpio (specially Jupiter or Uranus); those that didn’t conform had Saturn and Mars linked with Pluto always by favorable aspects [ Mars/Saturn within 18 degrees; Neptune in scorpio; Mars/Pluto trine ]

4. If Jupiter or Saturn is in conjunction with the Moon and the remaining planet of the two occupies a sign that is fixed by nature [ Jupiter and Saturn in Aquarius ]

I don’t recall if I saw Mars/Neptune (square) aspects in this list. Also, a serious Yod was in effect: Pr. Moon (conjunct Tr. Uranus) sextile Pr. Mars (conjunct Tr. Moon) with Tr. Mercury as finger and opposing Neptune as the midpoint (boomerang). I’m told Mercury/Neptune aspects can be disillusioning.

An anecdotal thought on the Moon: Danny, an older friend, and the daughter of a friend each had Moon in Pisces and each tried suicide. Only Danny succeeded.


http://www.teresawymore.com/images/dannytriwheel.gif

[New Moon Libra]

Katles, you say you have "Uranus is in the fifth house, square Venus and Mercury both in Virgo and trine my ascendant and midheaven." Wow, why hate this? This looks so creative to me. In fact all the aspects you note have creative potential for art or unraveling mysteries like the human condition. I just had tr. saturn conjunct my natal mars and I wondered if I'd feel depression or anger from the restriction. It had another affect--helping to discipline my energy. I plowed through some work and discovered a new way to process deadlines, finishing two short stories that were very satisfying to me. Aspects can have different meanings. Astrology isn't fate but opportunity for evolution.

[5th]

WELL, I want to share my understanding of suicide by Astrology.

The planet matters is SATURN.

Signs rulered by Saturn can have tendency to suicide----Capricorn and Aquarius. Because Saturn is a planet of sorrow. I have heard some Capricorn who want to suicide at a boy's age.

According to Lilly, CHOICE APHORISMS, Those that have the Lumninaries unfortunate in Angles will be apt to commit suicide.

[Arian Maverick]

Interesting observations...Saturn is the Lord of the Geniture in my natal chart and has essential as well as accidental dignity in the tenth house in Capricorn.

Although I cannot recall the exact day I nearly attempted suicide, I believe transiting Uranus was conjunct my North Node and transiting Saturn was hovering around my fifth house cusp. Mars may have been opposing my natal Jupiter or Mars and Jupiter opposed my first house Aries stellium.

Arian Maverick

[BorX]

There is also an arabic part of suicide :mad: . I don't know how to calculate it, I only know its conjunct my POF!!:p Haven't worked that one out yet.

hel

Part of suicide ( Yang ) = ASC + Jupiter - Cusp 12
Part of suicide ( Yin ) = ASC + Cusp 8 - Neptune

[franklin taylor]

Hello,
Sorry to hear so many are having to or have had to deal with these issues. I would seriously try to deal with underlying causes of suicide, mental illnesses. Depression is only part of the puzzle. With Bipolar disorder, suicide generally occurs after a period of severe depression ( they usually don't have the energy to take action during the deep hellish depression itself) however after that period, mania or even a period of normalacy occurs. They devise a plan to commit it and they even become happy and appear happy often when they kill themselves. They don't want to be in that hole of depression ever again. I knew a kid that had been trying to kill himself since childhood swallowed glass the first time, jumped from a low bluff the next and at nineteen he succeeded with a hunting rifle. He had these highs and lows. His father (a good friend of mine that has always appeared somewhat Bi-polar himself) had told me that his son had just came out of a severe depression and had seemed happier than he had been in his whole life, went hunting for the first time, killed a deer, and had seemed so amazed at how well his rifle had done the job of killing the animal. Within the following week the son had used the rifle on himself. I've seen so much suicide around here it beats those national averages all apart. Considering it is such a small populated area. You'd think there would be a Mars/Uranus or Saturn involvement for this type of suicide.

Another type of suicide is far less planned. Implusive suicide, I had a classmate who killed himself after being rejected from a girl. He shot himself inside his van. Another man living less than a mile from me growing up did the rifle/coat hanger method and he killed himself the day after his mother died. Although he had been known to say he would die when his mother died. Let's face the fact that people don't always react like they say they will about a future event although obviously he did. His sister had killed herself too. Alcohol was a factor in all three of these suicides. They were all intoxicated so you'd think that Mars Neptune/Jupiter affliction had to be involved in some way with this particular type of suicides because of there is often a drug alteration of some type involved.
One must look at depression as a cause all by itself because people not even suffering severe depression can take their lives, but most often its worse than the people will ever know around them will ever know. Saturn must be looked at with this type of suicides. It also depends on how each individual reacts to their depression (personality disorders).
The act of suicide has markers of its own which include Uranus obviously, Mars afflictions, having a twelfth house emphasis, the planet ruling one's natal twelfth house is afflicted, and when Saturn is in stressful aspects to the Sun,Moon or the Ascendant.
Suicidal tendencies occur when one has afflictions in or to the eighth house.
Bipolar disorders have been observed most often when Mars is afflicted, Neptune in the first house, having Saturn in Libra, Sagittarian Sun, Gemini/Sagittarius Ascendant/Descendant axis.
Depression has a rather long list of astrological markers, as it should, for so many suffer some degree of it. A Saturn or Capricorn emphasis,Saturn in the first, third, or sixth houses,Saturn afflicted in Virgo, Afflicted Arian Mercury, Moon/ Neptune aspects, Mercury/ Saturn aspects,Venus /Saturn aspects, Moon/Saturn aspects, Saturn near Midheaven, Mercury/ Pluto aspects, Saturn/ Neptune aspects, Sun/ Saturn in aspect to Mid heaven, Moon/ Saturn in aspect to Midheaven, Pluto is in the Saturn ruled or co-ruled signs of Capricorn and Aquarius, Mars in aspect to Saturn and Neptune. I didn't see one mention of Jupiter with depression.
Depressive Psychosis is most common when Neptune is near Midheaven or when Mercury is in aspect to Neptune and Midheaven.
I have read, and for the life of me I can't remember where, that when Mercury is in bad aspect to Uranus, and you become sick or disabled, these natives are more prone to use suicide as a way out. I think it was in William Lily actually or something similiar, but not in these exact words if it was Lily.
I personally went through a few attempts myself within the first five years of being sick and disabled with severe Dystonia (Neurological muscle spasm disorder. Muscles would stay in some level of a spasmodic state for weeks at a time) and Arthritis (anklosing spondylitis and its related illnesses). I had been such a self reliant type who had great pride in his sixth house talents and I felt at the time that they had been all thrown out the window. I lost hope. With severe muscle spasms (especially my spine) nearly all over my body and eventually even my face on a daily basis, it can help you make bad decisions and impair judgement. I didn't really want to die I merely wanted to escape the torment by taking overdoses to just "shut down" I can now see. But I had depressive tendencies before that which by and large had ignored. My Mercury is only in semisquare to Uranus so maybe the energy or will for suicide is not strong enough for me to do it maybe, but I have other other factors as well, My Neptune near midheaven would explain why my depression and my perception was unrealistic ( a nicer word than psychotic LOL) and my mercury trines that Neptune. Thankfully I am doing so much better and Dystonia has pretty much left after fifteen years, as they said it would eventually. But I still take a small dose of anti-spasmodic medication to be safe.
Take Care all, really so!
Franklin

[Light]

All

Saturn rules my sun, and a trail of rulerships comes down to Uranus in Virgo and Mercury in Aquarius. 3rd hse stellium, Jupiter neptune trine, Uranus conj the MC! Anything else I've missed :) . Warped sense of humour too. Tried and failed, planned and planned. I think my saving grace is the aspect between Merc and the Virgo traffic jam is minor, and the Mars sun aspect is slao minorish - the thoughts and the action don't seem to get it together quite. Death wish? Definately. To the point of expecting (from a very,very early age to be dead by 30). Can you imagine the disaapointment to wake up on that morning. especially after consuming more alcohol that night than I have in total in all the years since :o.

Bouts of severe depression and bouts of manic like behaviour inbetween. Not enough mania to be treated, though. I'm not bad enough, they say, so It's only stress. Funny how this stress occurs roughly every 12 years, when Jupiter is bouncing on my ASC and activating my Neptune. I either hibernate or rush around doing everything. Jup is where, now? A bit of both at the moment, up and down.



http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3641/hel141zd1.th.gif (http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hel141zd1.gif)


Thanks Borx for the arabic part equations. What's the difference between the yin and the yang? Too thick to figure it out, today.:o

take care

hel

[Arian Maverick]

This may sound a bit morbid, but I have been wondering if there are certain indications in a natal chart that may suggest how a person may choose to commit suicide if they are sufficiently motivated. For example, nearly two years ago I underwent a series of intense transformations that I was unable to recognize at the time; I was devastated by how messed up my life had become and desperately wanted out. Although I often fantasized of different scenarios and sometimes voiced these fantasies to others (yes, I was aware that I was completely unhinged but no longer cared), I was true to my Aries stellium and did not plan a detailed method of suicide until the day I decided I could no longer tolerate myself and what I had become. I will not describe my the plan I devised because I do not wish to give anyone any ideas; I will simply state I was going to hang myself. From my basic knowledge of medical astrology, I am aware that Taurus rules the throat, but I do not have any pronouned Taurean influences in my natal chart...

Arian Maverick

P.S. Please do not worry about me; I'm not suicidal now! ;)

[Light]

AM

You've got me thinking and remembering.....I've always ruled out hanging as too much pain! Apart from neptunian chemical cocktails, Mars and Arian traits seem to be a theme - with both the obvious attempts and the what i shall call the 'theoretical planning'. Is there a theme in the methods known suicides use? Working backwards from the outcome may give a hint to find the trigger (sorry:o ) in the first place. Wouldn't suicide itself come under Mars and Aries - going it alone, so to speak? I'm only guessing, mind, and trying to look at it differently (as I do so frequently).

years ago I underwent a series of intense transformations that I was unable to recognize at the time;

I wonder if these are the 'tests' we're supposed to encounter? It's just I felt the same way at The Time.

Still here :) and musing

hel

[Arian Maverick]

hel,

Your observation about suicide relating to Aries and Mars makes a lot of sense, since I have read that although more women than men have reported attempting suicide, men are much more likely to successfully complete the act.

Here is an interesting article from WebMD titled Men and Suicide (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/64/72262.htm) that explains this further:

Men and Suicide

There's a dramatic difference between men's and women's suicide rates and the methods they use -- but there's no simple explanation for it. By Martin Downs

WebMD Feature Reviewed By Brunilda Nazario, MD

When hospital emergency rooms receive people who have attempted suicide, doctors usually are able to save their lives. But there's something striking about the thousands every year whose decision to end it all is reversed in the ER. The majority of them, by far, are women.


Numbers from the National Center for Health Statistics show this clearly. In the year 2000, the latest year for which statistics are available, men died four times as often as women did when they attempted suicide, even though women were three times more likely than men to try it in the first place.


For those who work on the floor of a busy ER, this is common knowledge. "Far more females come in with suicide attempts, suicide gestures, than do males," says Stephan Lynn, MD, an ER doctor at St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital in New York City.


On the occasions when he does treat men who have attempted suicide, the injuries tend to be extreme compared with those he sees in women. He recalls one case in which a man had stabbed himself 20-30 times in the chest and gut, and most of the wounds were deep. In contrast, he says, women who try to slash their wrists often merely scratch the surface. "Some of them don't even go completely through the skin," he says.


Also, he says men who attempt suicide with pills tend to take heavier overdoses than women do.


But Lynn only sees patients whose lives could hope to be saved, and these are examples of the most survivable ways one might try to kill one's self. They are the exception for men, not the norm. When men attempt suicide, there's usually no use in calling an ambulance.


"Males tend to choose methods that are more immediately lethal," says Lanny Berman, PhD, executive director of the American Association of Suicidology.


Hanging is common, but more than 60% of men who killed themselves in 2000 did so with a gunshot.


Exploring the Darkness


There's no simple explanation for the dramatic difference between men's and women's suicide rates and the methods used.


It may be partly biological. "Suicide is an aggressive behavior," Berman says. And males, in general, are more aggressive than females.


The word "males" is important here, because it's not just adult men who die by suicide more often than women. The trend begins in late adolescence, around age 15, according to Madelyn Gould, PhD, who studies youth suicide at Columbia University. Before this age, suicide is rare. Also, trends in adolescents over 15 mirror trends in adult men and women.


Then there's the fact that men are less willing to seek help for their problems, physical and emotional, than women are. Women who survive a suicide attempt are much more likely than men to avail themselves of mental health services, Berman says.


Considering that, in addition to the fact that women choose less decisive means of suicide, one might wonder if an overdose of pills is just a "cry for help," and that women don't really mean to kill themselves most of the time.


Gould disagrees. "I don't think that the intent is greater among men," she says.


She points to the suicide rates in some Asian and Latin American countries, where the ratio of deaths by suicide in males and females is equal. "In those countries, women -- as in our country -- will attempt by an ingestion," she says.


In developed nations with good healthcare systems, we can call an ambulance if we find someone unconscious from an overdose, and reasonably expect that they'll get medical attention in a matter of minutes. But in the developing world, healthcare isn't so efficient. Also, women who attempt suicide in Asia tend to do it by swallowing paraquat, a common but very lethal herbicide. "The likelihood of being saved from that is nil, or comparable to shooting yourself," Gould says.


A Deadly Mix


More lethal methods seem to account for the higher rates of death by suicide in American men. But for someone to act with extreme violence toward oneself may also require what researchers call a "disinhibitor," meaning that it's much easier to pull the trigger when you're drunk or stoned.


People do all sorts of things when they're intoxicated that they would restrain themselves from doing while sober, and suicide is no exception.


According to the National Institutes of Mental Health, men are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol than women are. But people rarely take their own lives on a whim, no matter how severe their substance abuse may be. "It requires a vulnerable individual," Berman says.


The fact that men tend not to seek help for depression may be key to understanding why their suicide attempts are so often fatal.


In recent years, overall deaths from suicide in the U.S. have declined. Ted Greenberg, another suicide researcher at Columbia University, says that his studies of trends in adolescent suicide worldwide strongly suggest that of all possible factors, the availability of better antidepressant drugs, namely SSRIs, is most likely the cause.


But better drugs wouldn't have mattered without a fundamental change in mental health professionals' thinking about suicide. "The difference between now and 20 years ago is that most people in the field say that suicide is a complication of a psychiatric disorder, and that we should be addressing the psychiatric disorder, not the symptom," Greenberg says.


Take all these things together, and a clearer picture of suicide in men begins to emerge.


A man with untreated depression tries to drown his sorrows in alcohol or with illicit drugs, which only amplifies them. Then comes a moment when scattered thoughts of suicide coalesce to form a plan: There's a shotgun in the closet upstairs, an extension cord in the garage. The next time his inhibitions are dissolved, the plan is all too easy to carry out.


Published April 28, 2003.

Arian Maverick

[Light]

Ari Mav

Good article. I hope you're not reading those how-to websites - even if it is for research lol

I wonder if transiting Mars triggers something in people charts? A natal-chart predisposition and the aspect determines success or failure?


hel

[Arian Maverick]

Many months ago, I encountered an article titled The Finger of God kills Carlo Giuliani (http://www.astrologiadinamica.it/articoli/Yod/englishYod.html); this was the first time I equated this particular configuration with death. Guess which planet forms the apex of the yod--Mars! :eek:

the Finger of God kills Carlo Giuliani
by Rishi Giovanni Gatti, 25 luglio 2001, Milan (Italy)
with Wolfstar, USA

In that tragical Friday afternoon on July 20th, a particular planetary aspect was surrounding the world, the Yod configuration, also known as “the Finger of God”.

This time, planets involved are as follows:



Sun and moon, conjunct (New Moon, or Moon Eclipse), in the Sign of Cancer;

Chiron and Uranus, stimulating each other, in the Signs of Sagittarius and Aquarius


When two planets in stimulation insist on a third planet which is opposed to both, at the apex, the third planet is charged of a big responsability, imposing to the native who incarnates it a need to react, to “become history”, for good or evil, trying to express his energy. This is the reason why we find the Yod configuration very often in the birthcharts of many famous people. For example, we have Leonardo Da Vinci and Isaac Newton, with an apex Neptune; or Friederich Nietzsche and Carl Gustav Jung, with an apex Mars... Even Italian megamogul Silvio Berlusconi, in a less immortal way, so to speak, has a Yod, with apex Mercury.

To understand the meaning of this important aspect, we have to talk about the energies of the two stimulating planets, and shed some light on the mutual dynamics of the signs involved. Here we have Sagittarius and Aquarius, two signs in ample evidence due to the transits of Mars, Chiron and Pluto, on one side, and Neptune and Uranus, on the other. Two signs most involved with the Future, hopes, perspective.

Chiron is a big asteroid who travels between the orbits of Saturn and Uranus, and it has been discovered just 25 years ago. It is described as “the wounded healer”, becoming the symbol of the true psychological resource that allows everybody, when consciously enacted, to heal our wounds and the psychic shocks that tend to distorce our behaviour. For example, we can remember the so-called “Millennium Bug” of Dec 31, 1999. There, Chiron and Pluto where exactly conjunct in Sagittarius: the whole world was emotionally part in the process of healing the computer’s wound which put the global village at a stake, in the evenience of a breakdown of our digital net. Perhaps we will never know if the Bug was really there, or if it was just ********... The real meaningful thing was that all the people of the world where committed in a big, global and therapeutical healing operation, who made all of us conscious that there was a global wound that needed to be addressed and corrected.

Uranus rules our rebellious insticts, our need for freedom, and it is transiting is own sign, where he finds easiest methods and resources to express himself. Uranus is the only one planet in our Solar system that has choosen to “roll” instead of rotating on its axis. He wants to be different, to assess his personal individuality. He is not a gentle guy.

On the other side of the Sky, the Cancer Sign was inhabited by four transiting planets, with Moon and Sun quite conjunct, with a two-degree descending new moon in action. The interpretation one can assign to this particular lunar configuration is that something is gonna be finished before something new can be born (a new cycle, a new moon).

Putting together the whole symbolism of this powerful Yod, it is like Chiron and Uranus are pressing Moon and Sun to give birth to the new moon, to initiate a new cycle, a new life. The best sentence I can find to describe this is something like: the need to heal our psychological wounds without losing our own individuality, presses us to act for something new, to begin a new cycle, a new life, where to live our sentiments, our human feelings, without fear.

While those huge celestial bodies where involved in their Yod dance, the mundane world was involved in a more tragic dance: on one side there were the so called “world powers”, happy in their meeting, willing to find a common way to address the healing of global wounds. On the other side, the raged people, also full of wishful thinking, were engaged in a big protest, claiming that global wounds cannot be healed by those who have caused them.

Exactly in the middle, between these two radical intentions, a tragic event happens, broadcast instantly in the world through the Internet: a shot kills a young man. His name was Carlo Giuliani.

Both in the Birthchart and in the Deathchart, Carlo Giuliani lacks the Earth Element. No planets nor angles where posited in one of earth’s signs: Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn. A dynamic and motivational astrologer could have counseled the man to try to cultivate consciously, and by his own personal will, the qualities and the needs linked to “earth” – in essence, Security, Practicality and Determination – because most probably he could have missed them, being attracted to other qualities, more present in his chart.

In truth, we must say that looking at his Birthchart, one body he has in Taurus, and it is Chiron itself, symbol of woundedness, of a weakness.

Taurus is linked to one’s own inner, and outer, consolidation, to attain peace and serenity. It is not a violent sign. So, the native was natally weak in the pursuing of an inner sense of security and stability. (On the Second House cusp we find Uranus in Scorpio!).

By definition, a violent sign can be Aries, where our hero has Mercury and Venus, conjunct to the South Node, a point in the chart that we can call “the original sin”, the symbol of our innate tendencies to repeat unconscious and destructives patterns which have to be broken by means of effort and willingness to evolve.

Mercury, planet of words and movement, calls for the Sign of the Twins, where Carlo has two big planets, Moon and Jupiter. Moon rules basic instincts: change, discussions and wandering curious thoughts, dissecting and connecting, are precious components in his psyche. Jupiter rules high ideals, and it is at 27th Gemini, where we find «A gipsy emerging from the forest wherein her tribe is encamped». The keynote is “reaching out toward participation in a larger whole of mind-strctured existence” (source: Dane Rudhyar’s “Astrological Mandala”).

Here the gipsy is a victim, who strives to emerge from the tribe helding high in hand an estinguisher, thinking that in so doing his tension for a more evoluted and just world can be achieved.

When we choose to act out violence, we think of Aries and Mars. Mars is placed high in the sky, in Carlo’s Birthchart, in the Sign of the Crab. It looks at the whole chart, and connects to the Pisces Sun, inspiring him with the courage to be a dreamer. Fatefully, Mars is found in a “friction” state with the Libran Ascendant, against a sign that tries to find harmony and equilibrium in a disgusting and precarious world. This planet, Mars, seems the most difficult point to be integrated in the personality, as far as the Birthchart is concerned.

The fateful combination is that Mars in Cancer, in the noon of July 20th in Genoa, was exactly at the apex of the Yod configuration we described above, activated by the new moon, pressed to act by Chiron and Uranus.

In the mind of the young idealistic dreaming man (Sun in Pisces), something clicked, and asked to be acted out, to be lived: the “original sin” of violence found the way it fought for since ever, and the quickest way, in those hurried moments, was to pop up and emerge from the assaulting tribe, helding high in hand an estinguisher, in front of Death.

In that exact moment, the Yod apex “becomes history”. Mars in Cancer expresses all of his destructive violence inwardly against his own self, and becomes the symbol of a tragic death, a death which cries for its casualty, for its unexpected and dramatic powerfulness, for its undeservedness.

Now, the dead is not dead. He has been transfixed, in the collective unconscious, as the “saint”, as the “martyr”, prey of a bigger world, a world he “wanted to change”. Who knows? Maybe his sacrifice will help to change this world. His Twelfth House, the compassionate one, contains two very important points: planet Pluto, by far the most attuned symbol to the search for a meaning in life, and the North node, a mysteric symbol of an evolutionary path one has yet to travel.

In Divine Order, somebody has drawn the road for this soul, who left behind his steps a tragic memory and many tears, in the hope they won’t be meaningless.

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/184/carloguilianinatalchartwithtransitsbt4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Arian Maverick

P.S. I am beginning to appreciate the irony of my own natal chart, as I have two yods whose apex planets are Mars and eighth house Pluto in Scorpio...

[Nexus7]

Someone I knew quite well jumped off a train in 1992. From the point of view of 'all abut me' a red flag was raised for me when he started bequeathing me all his responsibilities including the treasury of an art group we were part of, because my 8th House ruler was receiving a transit conjunction from Saturn. I just wish I had asked him directly now if he had been thinking of this.

It was at about the time of his solar return. He would have been 43. Obviously, there was a lot more to it than birthday blues, though.

It does remind me of something Charles Carter suggested too - often, the death of someone can be seen in the charts of those he or she is closer to and often with more 'negative' transits, because of how this is registered by the survivors. This is also something I am seeing underlined in even more detail, in a book by Mike Harding, Hymns to the Anceint Gods, where there are some impressive loking transitting midpoints in charts of whole families and deaths.

All I will otherwise emphasise again, however, is that whilst it may be a good idea to check such maters wherever there might be the slightest hint of a red flag - I wish I had at that point in time - 'predicting' suicide for someone is another matter. I once had to deal with someone who came to me for a reading after his nice astrological guru had told him he would do this by a certain date, then someone made prognostications for me of this ilk.

That is just not cool. Trust me.

[ninetta]

HI KATLES

i am sorry you have to struggle with this aspects, but the fact is that i understand you. I had tentavies of suicide when i was about 15. several intents. until 18 i was being in hospitals and psiquiatrics. (sorry for my english, i am spanish).
i dont know when all started, if in my earlier life, when i feel now the something in my childhood went wrong, or when my parents had a horrible divorce when i was 11. or when i was sexualy abused by a fathers friend at age 12.
the thing is i also have saturn and mars in scorpio, in conjuction, one in 4th and the other in 5th.
i have my moon in aries in th opposite pluto in libra in 4th at degree 29. my father was libra, and my mother aries like my moon.
my sun, myself, its on cancer in 12th, (the fact that i felt my father so distant of me all my ******* life) and my mother, a so powerful aries, having she moon and sun in extremely conjunction in aries, and she "weared the pants" in the house.
bye now

[Claire19]

Neptune badly aspected especially with Moon and Mercury. Depression belongs to Pluto and Saturn also. Many possibilities. The 8th and 12th houses involved.

[Caprising]

Unfortunately it's suicide season at the present time according to my understanding of astrology and the transiting planets.In the area in which I live, (which is relatively small,) we have had 4 vehicle head on collisions in the last week,and 5 fatalities resulting from these, quite unheard of for this small town, so I started looking for the main indicators of vehicle accidents, which I could not find, so I began to question the validity of the main indicators of vehicle accidents that i had previously found by studying charts of local and global crashes. They wern't there, but then I realised that these accidents wern't exactly accidents. The conjunction of chiron and neptune and the north node in Aquarius, combined with the mars in cancer jupiter in cap.opposition, and also the full moon last week in my honest opinion, resulted in 4 (successful) suicide attempts by crashing head on into another vehicle. The local police are at a loss to explain why these accidents occurred, and have asked for witnesses to come forward. I couldn't work out why I was so depressed in the last week, now it is clear, but it's almost over now, for me anyway, so if anyone out there is feeling like escaping this place, just hang around for a day or 2 and you should be back to your normal self in no time, with a good understanding of how a few strong transits can change the way you feel in the short term.

[luneblanche]

Hi! My Mars, 9H in Gemini is squaring Saturn, 12H in Virgo, and I do have Uranus in Scorpio. I read the quote and actually I feel aswell that sometimes death is the only escape. I think aswell because of my 12H Saturn I learn to be very confortable with death and can somehow understand people that took that radical decision of suicide.
Thanks for reading!
Luna

[Lissa]

Liz Green says in her book 'Saturn' that Jupiter opposite Saturn aspecting Venus are suicidal aspects,and,having a tight Jupiter/Saturn opposition(Jupiter:3º50'Leo rx;Saturn:3º59'Aquarius)with an out-of-sign square to my Venus/IC conjunction at27º49'Aries,I could not agree more.I have been depressed for about one year now,for no specific reason at all,and since last December I have attempted against my own life twice,being that my last attempt took place about three weeks ago.Having gone through that,I know it's a very dark place to be in,where you feel it's all your fault and no one can make it better but you,but then you also feel like you don't have the key to open the door and so it's better if you just go.Being fully medicated now,I feel pretty fine,it's just that sometimes I get sad and,when I do get sad,I go all the way with it and start thinking about what I shouldn't think about.Plus,it's absolutely impossible to predict when I will get sad.

I can't say I fully understand why the Jupiter/Saturn/Venus combo is an indication of suicide,but I'll take a wild guess and say it has something to say with the impulsive,unpredictable nature of suicide,like it happens to me.I would normally associate Pluto/Mars with suicidal ideation,but maybe these two create a personality that's simply dark by nature and atracted to things related to death without being actually uncomfortable with life in itself?

[Caprising]

Hi Melissa, I'm glad your still with us. :) Just a few comments on your natal and progressed chart(as you age, your personality changes, reflecting changes in your progressed chart if you havn't gotten into progressions yet.) There is quite a bit happening at the moment in your progressed chart, you have so many conjunctions/transits that I don't really know where to start, so I will begin with your progressed ascendant, at 20 degrees capricorn, which is being transited by real time jupiter, not a cheery position, but thankfully a brief one, juno is also conjunct your asc, but I havn't put much study into this one yet, but believe that it's effect is similar to venus. In opposition to your progressed asc is chiron in cancer,(also angular thus powerful) emotional wounds in your case, and progressed chiron, being retro in your natal, has stationed and is moving direct now(forward that is) and is in a tight conjunction to your natal chiron ,read doubly wounded, both your prog. asc and descendant are aspecting the nodes (within 4 degrees prog.) indicating a "fated" condition you are experiencing according to many astrologers. The opposition you mentioned in your post of jupiter and saturn opposition with a sign square to venus is probably a large contributor to the way your feeling at the moment, as your progressed venus is in an opposition to pluto in scorp(natal and prog.) , and your progressed moon is also in scorpio, in the last few degrees,(void of course?) and your progressed mars has changed signs from gemini to cancer(driven emotions) so the emotional turmoil must be overbearing at times as you indicated earlier. At least you can express how you feel (natal moon within 4 degrees of mercury)even if you do feel like ****! Your progressed mercury is transiting your natal venus too,making it even more active than it is natally being angular on the I.C.(where we are coming from) . The GOOD news is that your progressed moon is about to change signs (about the 5th of june, 2 weeks away though you should feel it coming on nowish) into saggitarius, this is an adventurous sign, jolly even at times, and should make studying your favourite metaphysical subjects e.g. astrology,philosophy very enjoyable!, and don't forget the sports orientated side of this fire sign, so plan to get out and do stuff,(nothing too dangerous though:) ) and it would be a good time to learn to laugh at yourself, that is you don't always have to take yourself so seriously, you have the right to enjoy yourself, in fact you have a responsibility to yourself to enjoy life , so what is it that you really enjoy doing?

[Jeremy]

24 Taurus, 25 Gemini, 14 Cancer, 24 Virgo, 14 Libra, 25 Sagittarius and 14 Capricorn are all degrees which are strongly associated with the tendency to suicide. The 14 Cap./Cancer axis is well known for this reason particularly.

[Lissa]

Hi Caprising,thanks for your analysis:) Oh yeah no wonder I had tried the unthinkable,with all that Chiron action going on,I'm guessing all my emotional wounds must come to the surface now and they're all very scrambled.If anything good came out of this,it was that I built a much stronger relationship with my family and had the chance to realize who's really by my side and who's not.And yes I feel much lighter now,I feel hopeful again and starting to see things more clearly:) Blessings,
Lissa

[Caprising]

Lissa, I just realised that your mars was in gemini only 5 months ago, driving your mind to think, hence your saying at the bottom of your posts "and still I sit and lie awake all night."..............now that your prog.mars has changed signs sleep should come more readily, if not, there are a few natural herbs that can help greatly , these being Valerian,and chamomile, among others. I have tried these and they work well, and are non addictive, and if these don't work a foot massage will, garranteed!! Cheers Caprising.

[Sag Moon]

I just wish to mention that I have seen the charts of those having Ne=IC by progression as having the tendency.

Neptune contacting any of the angles could setoff a hasty reaction such as lost hope.Then again it could mean entirely something else depending on age and other factors.

[jupiter]

Very interesting
I would like to add what I've read about suicidal tendencies in a chart:
Planets afflicted in the 25 degree of fixed signs
in the late degrees of mutable signs(always a problematic area)
Neptune and the 3rd house play a role too.

[Astrodawn]

For research into suicides:

This is the chart of someone I knew who committed suicide by hanging in May 08.

The transits are approximate for the time late 9th/ early 10th may. the moon position would need adjustment.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj246/Astrodawn/astro_24gw_41_suicide_by_hanging_.gif

[star2858]

I have Jupiter trine Neptune in my chart. I think what was said earlier about it being an indicator of suicide is true.

I think the case for me is simply "sooner or later". Not a day goes by and i don't think about taking my own life. I get so upset quickly, over little things too. I'm only 20, i study law, i might have my entire life ahead of me, but i don't know.

I think there might be other indicators too. Having Neptune retrograde in 8th house and jupiter and moon in the 12th house.

What do you think?

[Nexus7]

Star2858

What I think is that is dangerous to look for aspects in your chart as predisposing you towards suicide. I don't know the rest of your chart, but Jupiter/Neptune is possibly a litle idealistic in the face of a frequently harsh and unfair world, the rest of your chart may or may not suggest a sensitive nature.

You sound as though things have got on top of you and I would suggest that it might be a better plan to look at the roots of what is bringing about your current state of mind, rather than assuming your horoscope is telling you to exit it without trying to resolve whatever is disturbing you.

[Caprising]

I don't think that it's "dangerous" to look for indicators of suicide in ones chart, in fact this is what astrology is all about in my opinion, working out why you feel the way you feel. What better way to explore oneself than deciphering your birthchart. The planets/aspects/angles of the natal chart are not "fixed" as such, they progress as we grow older and hopefully wiser, so problem malefics on angles or in bad aspect will usually pass as shown by the progressed chart. If for some reason we can't get a malefic combination off an angle, then relocation is another way to "dodge" the worst manifestation of the planetary symbolism. Try progressing your natal chart to the other side of the country and you will see what I am trying to explain. Of course not all of us can or want to do a relocation, maybe a holiday in a fore chosen location will give you an idea of the effect that the new place will have on you, it's a bit like when holidaying you notice that some places are "fantastic" and you have a great time, where other locations just don't "feel" right, and you wouldn't go back for quids!

[Looking to Jupiter]

Great 1st article Mav.....Islamic! Allah seems to be everywhere I look these days....glad to be seeing astrology and Islam on the same article....( i know its an old post, but thanks anyway)

[Nexus7]

Cap Rising

I probably did not explain myself very well, what I meant by 'dangerous' was any rendency to start using astrology and any factor in the chart rather less wisely than you rightly suggested. I mean, the kind of thinking that goes 'I have such-and-such an aspect in my chart, therefore I am fated/doomed to commit suicide/be bad-tempered/never be able to hold down a job, or whatever.'

I do not think it is worth looking for factors in a chart that predispose anyone to suicide anyway: there might be signs of vulnerability to depression, sensitivity to he ugliness of the world or whatever, but in one way, looking for 'signs' surely flies in the face of at least one sacred astrological tenet: that we do have free will.

Taking your own life is a choice that could be seen in retrospect by any precipitaing stress factors in a chart, but maybe the individual who finally does this extreme act could have reacted differently, with a different level of awareness.

I menat to disabuse any possible notions that any course of action such as this is in any way predestined, and I do think a lo of people can be surprisingly impressionable and more superstitious than we might think too: I did not think I could be easily impressed in this way, but then, when someone told me I might commit suicide, it really, really scared me. Then again, this particualr person did tie in her enlightened predictions with some very real concerns and fears I did have at that poin in ime.

[Caprising]

Nexus7, I stand corrected. After re-reading your post, I now see the point you were trying to make and I also agree with what you are saying about people being impressionable and gullible. There IS a certain amount of freewill, and I believe that there are ways to sidestep problematic planetary configurations. Nancy Anne Hastings (well known American astrologer) touches on this topic in her book entitled "time to remember".....an excellent read by the way! I have already learned about relocating to change the angles on your progressed chart, (not in a lot of detail though),and would like to look into this further one day. I currently have my progressed asc. at 28 degrees aqua, so my progressed ascendant is heading into pisces, a new set of colored glasses to veiw the world through!. I can see one of the changes already, mainly eyesight. For the last month or 2 I have been looking at my environment from an artistic point of veiw, the trees here in autumn (southern hemisphere) look so good now, whereas before they were just .......trees!! Maybe I'm developing an artistic side that I never new that I had! Maybe it's time we students started to focus on the positive changes that come with planetary changes instead of looking at only the negative manifestations! I'm way off topic here, would someone like to start a new thread on positive changes in the progressed chart?

[star2858]

Star2858

What I think is that is dangerous to look for aspects in your chart as predisposing you towards suicide. I don't know the rest of your chart, but Jupiter/Neptune is possibly a litle idealistic in the face of a frequently harsh and unfair world, the rest of your chart may or may not suggest a sensitive nature.

You sound as though things have got on top of you and I would suggest that it might be a better plan to look at the roots of what is bringing about your current state of mind, rather than assuming your horoscope is telling you to exit it without trying to resolve whatever is disturbing you.

I think you're right Nexus7. To be honest, seeing those indicators in my chart merely confirmed what i already knew. It didn't make me think about doing it anymore. Maybe even, it made me think it might be worthwhile to see what planets are transitting to know 'when' it might be worthwhile to do this act anyway.

[Caprising]

The great "unknown" is what we call whatever happens to the "mind or soul" when the body ceases to live. This is probably because once you are dead, you can't speak to tell us earthlings whats on the "otherside" if anything. There are many ideas on life after death, which one do you believe? and why?. Some local Theosophists told me that if you check out earlier than intended you have to come back here a few times over, once or twice to learn the "lessons" that you came here to learn in the first place and a few more lifetimes for checking out early, apparently some sort of punishment for commiting suicide. Personally I don't believe that this theory is totally correct, but stop to think........how would you like another dozen lifetimes because your actions hurt the people that love you and/or offended the "gods" If you don't believe that theory thats fine, but instead of making this place better by changing what you can, you will make it worse by creating more pain for those around you. If your into making those around you miserable on purpose, maybe one could question why you would want to do these things, maybe as some sort of payback for the pain they caused you! Oversensitivity perhaps? Only you can find your answers to that question. One thing to think about is if you do have to come back,in your next life would you want the earthlings to be more educated about the way they treat you? or would you be happy to live in a violent society who will hurt you and vice versa?

[Nexus7]

I have heard that theory too, that a suicide can mean twice or three times as many problems next time round - either in an afterlife or in another incarnation. The Catholics were very hard on suicides, calling it a sin against the holy spirit and therefore inviting moire serious eternal punishments than usual. Raymond Moody emphasises that suicides do not go to a nice place in any NDE visions - even if it is not boiling lakes of lava and brimstone, apparently, such NDE-ers do get the message that this route is not the answer.

Anyway, all the major religions counsel against it. Atheists like Dorothy Rowe who have written books for depressives full of wise saws and instances just point out that this act does have consequences for the people you leave behind and in in any case, all death brings is death, not any kind of solution to your problems.

That is a wide trine between Jupiter and Neptune anyway, Star2858. And as you have posted yout chart....that is some challenging squares you have there natally from Saturn to Sun/Mars. You are coming up to a Saturn square its own place - 21 can be a surprisingly tough age for people testing out their untried skills and confidence and yours may well have already taken a few dents along the way. There may also be a tendency to turn your anger against yourself and it may be important to find ways to stand up for yourself assertively rather than just react in the heat of the moment, only to regret it later.

[neo]

The theory mentioned in the previous couple of posts would mean that the gods are power trippers, and cruel, sending souls back here to endure more "learning". Wouldn't it make more sense to teach someone lessons without saturn like limitations, or without neptune to cloud issues? Learning would be so much more enjoyable then.

[Looking to Jupiter]

The theory mentioned in the previous couple of posts would mean that the gods are power trippers, and cruel, sending souls back here to endure more "learning". Wouldn't it make more sense to teach someone lessons without saturn like limitations, or without neptune to cloud issues? Learning would be so much more enjoyable then.

its quite possible they are power trippers....sadistic power trippers....i'll be happy eventually to meet whoever is running the show...I have bones to pick :D

[Caprising]

I was told by an "enlightened" person that I chose my life (chart)before I came here. I'm not saying that I believe this, only that it is a very real possibility worth thinking about.It seems that souls from everywhere are trying to come into the earth plane. They/we are trying to clean up this mess, but apparently it's hard to do a lot when the planetary energies here wipe your memory of not only where you came from but also why you came here in the first place. Maybe thats why a lot of people don't really like it here, the unconcious memories of more sane places are still lurking in the background of our minds, giving us a contrast .

[aquarius7000]

Does anyone have any comments about possible suicide found in a birth chart.
Hi all,

I studied the chart of one of my favourite authors and am putting below all that leapt out at me in the face of the main question of this thread.

Virginia Woolf - writer - born Jan 25, 1882; at 12.15 pm; in London (UK) // died Mar 18, 1941 by drowning herself

Natal chart:
Primarily fixed house occupancy in :-
-Aquarius (lord of 10) through Sun and Mer
-Taurus (part of 12-H) through stellium of Saturn, Jupiter, Pluto and Chiron. Aries-Moon was also in 12-H. Saturn and Jupiter are about 11° apart, and so are Saturn and Moon
Fixed signs of Sco & Leo did not have any planets

Solar return (1941) showed:

Tr-Pluto (in fixed sign of Leo & conj IC) opp Sun (Sun conj MC); opp. Venus; opp. MC; squared Saturn
Tr-Nep squaring Mars Mars=Violence ; Nep = Water
Tr-Mars (in fire sign-Sag) squaring natal Uranus = typical accident aspect
Stellium over 12-H ; Tr- Venus and Moon over 8
Tr-Chiron also in lose conj to IC squaring the Moon (-in12) and opp Sun and Venus : could Chiron here explain the self-inflicted wound (drowning)Hard Transits on the D-Day, when V.Woolf committed suicide by drowning herself:

Sun (in water sign-Pisces) squared natal Mars
Venus (in water-Pisces) opposed natal Uranus
Merc (in water Pisces) squared natal Pluto- in 12
Moon (in water-Scorpio) opposed natal Pluto
Chiron (in water-Cancer) opposed natal Venus and Sun, and squared Moon in 12
Saturn and Jupiter (in fixed, earth sign- Taurus) were conjunct natal Jupiter and Neptune- in 12; and squared natal Mercury- in 10/ Aqu
Uranus was conjunct natal Pluto in 12Note that the Sun and all transitting personal planets were in water signs on the D-day

[Nate of the 12th]

Try this one

[aquarius7000]

Try this one
Wow, that's a heavy 12th house there - but it's in a fire sign with Aries on the cusp - which should make it a bit 'livelier' than it's usual self. Also, you have planets in the 5th (= fun, leisure & pleasure), which should also sort of balance things up a bit.:) However, how would you say the tight Pluto square Moon affects you?

[Nate of the 12th]

If you consider staring at the walls, having no mood to do anything - lively :-)
Moon square Pluto makes me 100% invested emotionally in whatever I experience. When you're depressed it can be quite problematic :rolleyes:
I don't know what "fun" is. Everything I do has this stale taste to it.
I'd hang myself but I hate myself so much I want me to suffer
I guess pain causes madness :38:

[aquarius7000]

Hi again Nate,

The first step to 'liveliness' is stepping out of your shell and talking about stuff- which you are quite openly doing. I agree that such a 'weighty' 12-H can cause one to withdraw oneself more often than usual, sort of hide oneself and think and brood..., but 12-H is also the house of (positive) transformation. It is where you meet with your past, your unconscious self, only to resurface again - sort of after recharging your batteries :). I have seen many celebrities for e.g. (taking their e.g. only because they are in the limelight) have planets in the 12 H, and they lead very 'public' lives. I think that people with planets in 12 are people with a lot of depth, ones who actually understand life.

More importantly Nate, all these are just astrological explanations, but astrology doesn't force you to be the way you 'choose' to be!!!
Hey, btw, was curious about the Moon-Pluto square as I have it too (my Moon and Mars both get squared by Pluto), and yes you're right about getting pretty emotionally charged with this aspect ;)

I think astrology helps us to understand ourselves better -our strengths and esp our weeknesses, so we must take advantage of this fact, and work on the latter to improve our lives. Hey, don't forget that you have a wonderfully occupied 5-H, so just go and have some fun :p

Take care
aquarius7000

[Nate of the 12th]

I don't blame it just on the 12th house. Granted, this house easily exacerbates and inflates problems in the chart, but I put most of the blame on that Capricrone Moon (a fallen location already prone to gloom) reflecting fiery (squares), destructive charges off of that Mars opposite Pluto. I have also found earthy signs tend to have a certain morbid touch to them which can further exacerbate negativity in the chart http://www.astrologyindepth.com/Earth_element they seem to hold on to the negativity
I'm serious about not being able to have fun. The only thing that ever excited me (in a good way) was skiing in France, but that's really too expensive for me and again, I just hate me :o

[aquarius7000]

.. I put most of the blame on that Capricrone Moon (a fallen location already prone to gloom) reflecting fiery (squares), destructive charges off of that Mars opposite Pluto. I have also found earthy signs tend to have a certain morbid touch to them which can further exacerbate negativity in the chartAgree with you that a Capricorn Moon is more prone to melancholy than say a Leo-Moon. But Cap-Moon, or Moon in an earth sign, also means more loyal and stable feelings/ emotions. These are the just the 2 sides of a coin, and it's up to the native to live out the positive or the negative ;). Hey, I also have a Cap Moon, and now that we are discussing this in so much detail, I will let you know that my Cap-Moon is quite badly afflicted. It is squared by Pluto, opposed by Saturn (so there's the double Capricorn touch), and is also in conj to Mars. Now I can't change this, but can teach myself to change this weakness into a strength by living out more the Moon-Venus sextile side in my chart. My hating my Moon or myself won't help me in the least, but concentrating on the positives in my chart will give me joy and make me more optimistic. I'm serious about not being able to have fun. The only thing that ever excited me (in a good way) was skiing in France, but that's really too expensive for me and again, I just hate me :o Well, I think you are on the right track - you have discovered what you like and this activity might be expensive right now, but what the heck, it doesn't have to be this way for the rest of your life, and hey, skiing is not like going into space. And surely if I were to lock myself up in a room and gape at the walls, then how can I expect to have fun. I mean chanting the mantra - 'I can not have fun' is certainly no remedy - so again Nate - make use of your 5th house planets- concentrate on those and let the Leo side of it rollick you :D . Perhaps this is your Karma - learning to be more relaxed in life and taking it easy :)

[Jeremy]

Interesting. My wife has Capricorn Moon, t-squared by Ve conj. Ur opposing Chiron and she has never been depressed in her life. Pragmatic, taciturn perhaps, quite tough emotionally (actually very tough emotionally) but never in a million years depressed.
I agree with Aq7k on this one, depression doesn't seem to me to be a Capricorn Moon quality, Cap. would never want to be prone to such weakness, for water signs the emotions are much more fraught.

[Torgo]

I have a Moon in Cap. and I can tell you that I was a very happy child growing up. However, certain events a few years ago propelled me into a severe depression with suicidal ideation. I don't think I'll ever be the same again because of it. So, I tend to believe there is something to all of this.

[Jeremy]

I have a Moon in Cap. and I can tell you that I was a very happy child growing up. However, certain events a few years ago propelled me into a severe depression with suicidal ideation. I don't think I'll ever be the same again because of it. So, I tend to believe there is something to all of this.

I would say your Neptune rising square Saturn in worrisome Virgo has much more potential relevance in depression related problems than Moon in Capricorn.

[Nate of the 12th]

Surely there are exceptions to every rule in astrology, and I found Uranus and Aquarius influences somewhat contraindicatory to depression, because it gives the ability to "disconnect" emotionally. Also the problems with Capricorn seem to come up when the person is not working at some goal, not trying to climb some mountain. My Pluto influences and 12th / 8th house combos make me spiritually question everything, so I cannot go work at some supermarket chain just to get myself busy, because the fake-feeling it gives me just depresses me further.

I know Air signs often have the ability to use intellectual ideation to change any negative focus, I see my Gemini mom doing it and she's often tries to sell it to me, but my negativity is too consolidated and I just despise life. I hate having to work hard at everything and not being able to feel any enjoyment (taurus thing). Neither can I fake enjoyment, as much as relatives and friends wish me to.....

[Jeremy]

I am not a big fan of rules in astrology, but of course they do exist. To say that planet A in sign B = effect C though is overly deterministic. I would say that very often, people who read their own charts, the same as people who read their own tarot are going to be prone to reaching the conclusions that suit their subjective deductions.

Personally, I look at my own astrology in a fairly abstract way, if I want a properly objective opinion I ask one of the astrologers here who I trust to give me their view, I have asked for help from Gaer, Starlink and EJ53 to name but a few and I have found in all cases that they provided insights to an issue which I really could not see very clearly.

What I will say about Moon in Capricorn is that it works toward stability, toward practical goals that fulfill emotional objectives, that makes sure that the environment is supportive. I honestly cannot say that it is associated with depression unless you perhaps bracket a dry, dour, undemonstrative demeanour into the same diagnostic criteria.

I would say that the Moon does nothing consistently, so if you are consistently unable to find the joy in life then look to Saturn, an afflicted Jupiter, slow and difficult transiting conditions, perhaps by Solar Arc or secondary progression.

In the case cited above, I would consider Neptune in Sagittarius to give a real yearning for the far-off and profoundly prophetic, it diffuses the already expanding domain of Jupiter, so it is a highly contemplative, spiritual and philosophical placement that rising personalises and creates a need to express that very delicate and refined feeling, but in square to Saturn in Virgo, which demands almost the opposite, a fussy, pedantic, nit-picking quality that in the 9th directly contradicts the dreamy expansiveness of Neptune; that creates a real drag on the primary mode of self-expression, weighs down the spirit with self-criticism, creates a struggle between idealism and materialism, and the worrying nature of Saturn would really depress the spirit denoted by Neptune.

And what is depression astrologically? Is it to do with the emotions or the spirit? In my own experience of it, true depression is like an existentialist angst, not a functional, immediate, fluctuation. Now it may be that a Moon placement at 14 degrees Capricorn may incline to suicidal thoughts, but that is true of any placement at 14 degrees of the Cardinal signs, so it is not unique to Capricorn. Furthermore, I am not ruling out the possibility that Moon in Capricorn can be configured in a case of depression; I am only saing that in my experience, Moon in Capricorn does not incline to depression in the clinical sense.

[Arian Maverick]

I'd hang myself but I hate myself so much I want me to suffer
I guess pain causes madness

This comment in particular attracted my attention because it reflects an attitude that I myself once had. Therefore, perhaps it would be pertinent to explore what aspects could incline one to be particularly prone to self-criticism, and in extreme cases, self-hatred. I'm a bit biased in this regard, but I think that afflicted planets in the first house could incline one to have such a self-concept, or perhaps an afflicted first house ruler.

I personally don't believe that anyone is "destined" to commit suicide, although indicators in one's natal chart may provide a disposition that would incline one to take one's own life. Transits and progressions can activate certain planets at certain times and exacerbate self-destructive thoughts and behaviors that may ultimately lead to suicide. I know from personally experience that progressed Moon in Scorpio is extremely difficult; a series of unfortunate events began point shortly after my progressed Moon entered Scorpio, and things only got worse when the progressed Moon entered my eighth house and conjunct my natal Pluto. I'm sure there are other indicators, but I'd check your progressions in particular because they tend to indicate changes in one's internal environment while transits tend to indicate events that occur in the physical world.

EDIT: I found Nate's chart, and the first thing I noticed was that he has a lot of quincunx aspects in his natal chart and various planets in his Taurus stellium form the apex of a giant yod configuration. Depending upon which planets you consider, the apex planet can be Mars, Mercury, or the Sun. That stellium is under a considerable amount of pressure because these planets also square the nodal axis. I'd research yods and see what you find; I haven't discovered any link to suicide yet, but I have noticed that yod configurations can incline one towards obsessive-compulsive behavior. I need to study more charts to ascertain this, however.

Your natal Saturn is placed strongly by sign; Saturn is exalted in Libra. You are fortunate, however, that Venus is located in Taurus, the sign of its rulership. Venus very well may be the final dispositor of your chart...

Well, I have read almost everywhere that hards aspects involving Saturn esp with Moon or Venus, or predominance of planets (esp personal planets) in Capricorn incline the native more towards depression and/or pessimism.

Thanks for this link, aquarius7000! Again, I can attest to this from personal experience because my natal Moon is loosely square my Saturn-Neptune conjunction, and this conjunction tightly squares my natal Sun-Venus-Mercury conjunction. Fortunately, I am not as inclined towards depression and pessimism as I once was, although I am still inclined to be rather self-critical and unforgiving of mistakes. I'm wondering if my generation may be particularly vulnerable due to the outer-planet stellium in Capricorn and Pluto in Scorpio.

What year were you born, Nate?

Now it may be that a Moon placement at 14 degrees Capricorn may incline to suicidal thoughts, but that is true of any placement at 14 degrees of the Cardinal signs, so it is not unique to Capricorn.

Planets at 14 degrees in the cardinal signs incline one towards suicidal thoughts? :eek:

Is it only the fourteenth degree, or can planets be located in the thirteenth, fifteenth, or sixteenth degree? Is there an "orb"? My natal Saturn is located at 13 Capricorn 41, which is almost fourteen degrees, and my natal Sun/Venus/Mercury conjunction spans 15 Aries 36 to 16 Aries 30. Obviously, I've never committed suicide, but I'm curious if planets located in these degrees could incline one towards suicidal thoughts...

Arian Maverick

[Nate of the 12th]

There's an often cited rule of threes - if you have three indications of the same effect, the effect will be significant enough in the personality. I take the Moon being in Capricorn, being square to Pluto and being in the 8th house. Then four (!) personal planets in the 12th house can also be considered. I do not believe in going after the transpersonal planets' influence unless they are aspecting personal planets (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars) Btw I also read tarot for myself :) works like a charm!

Hi Arian Maverick, I also do not believe people are destined to anything. I don't believe the planets influence us, but instead reflect us. I was born in 1981... my chart is in this thread somewhere

Aquarius7000 what house is your Moon in?

[aquarius7000]

I don't think anybody has stated on this thread that mere placement of any planet in Capricorn would incline the person to 'suicidal' thoughts, and 'such' thoughts certainly cannot be equated to pessimism or depression.

Astrology by itself is quite a debated subject, yet one has to go by certain parameters, or generalisations, or even theories in order to be able to discuss or debate a topic.

Just like the more or less established rule that Moon does nothing consistently, it is quite well known that the weaker side of the taciturn, stable and tough Capricorn can be severity, pessimism or also depression. Every sign has certain traits associated to itself, and these traits include both strengths and weaknesses, which get activated by certain natal aspects, and then again by specific transits.
Again hardly anyone would say that having one's Sun or Mer alone in the astrological sign of Capricorn would make the native depressive, it's always a play of many hard aspects that might make the native's mind 'more' or 'more easily' inclined to such dire thoughts.

Also people who might read their own charts or those of their family members might have certain ready factors that could come close to ascertaining theories found in astrology books and articles, or these people might also be more inclined to refute those theories for whatever reasons.

This is an Astrology and Psychology thread, where we are using our knowledge of astrology more or less as the basis to understand certain behaviours or thought types.
At the end of the day, everybody should be able to share his/her thoughts, opinions, and even experiences!

Cheers

[Jeremy]

Is it only the fourteenth degree, or can planets be located in the thirteenth, fifteenth, or sixteenth degree? According to Ebertin, just the 14 degree point. I did not mean to worry you of course, there would need to be other factors I would say. Please don't be alarmed on my account AM, there are diffiuclt health issues at almost every degree based upon this sytem; it is a psychic predisposition that creates a problem of course.

I take the Moon being in Capricorn, being square to Pluto and being in the 8th house. I think you are slightly misapprehending my point. I did not for one minute want to disprove your depression; I only wanted to say that Moon in Capricorn on its own does not predispose to depression. Moon in any sign square Pluto in the 8th gives a very Scorpio cast to the emotions.

I do not believe in going after the transpersonal planets' influence unless they are aspecting personal planets I quoted the case of Neptune rising, which I am sure any astrologer would agree personalises its effect whether or not it is aspected to inner planets.

[aquarius7000]

Hi AM - good to meet you again :)

Hi Nate - my Moon is in 5

[Nate of the 12th]

I only wanted to say that Moon in Capricorn on its own does not predispose to depression. Moon in any sign square Pluto in the 8th gives a very Scorpio cast to the emotions.
Yes, I see it the same way :)

I quoted the case of Neptune rising, which I am sure any astrologer would agree personalises its effect whether or not it is aspected to inner planets.

Definitely a conjunction with the ascendant or midheaven would be very significant.... Neptune on the ascendant can exacerbate a difficult chart as it can potentially defocus the native's life and send him inwardly

[Caprising]

Nate, your progressed moon is in a conjunction with your natal moon, Your first moon return!. (the second moon return comes in another 27 years or so). This is a difficult time for a lot of people, more so for you at the moment as transiting jupiter is also right on your natal and prog. moon.(enlarging the depressive side ) Transiting Jupiter is retrograde at the moment, so in a few weeks it will have moved a few degrees away from your natal/prog. conjunction, so hopefully you will feel a bit more "normal", however there might be another low period as the transiting moon also comes into the picture but should only have an effect for a day or 2. Moon in cap or in strong negative aspect to saturn can bring on depressing feelings, but then everyones moon progresses as we age, so most of us will feel depressed at some stage of our lives.(the progressed moon changes signs every 2 and a half years or so). As your prog. moon goes past your natal, the effect will lessen, so there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and before you ask, No it's not an oncoming speeding train!!. I strongly suspect that your natal venus in a wide conjunction to Chiron is , or I should say has been very active on and off over the last decade or so.Being largely in the 12th house, (venus/chiron etc) the wound(s) you have may be unconscious, so now would be a good time to sit down and work out what it is that hurts you, and use your abundance of earth to form a practical plan to change whatever it is thats not right in your life. Moon in cap would suggest a need to acheive something concrete in the world, and with all that Taurus in your natal, you have the patience to make it happen. Your progressed asc , sun venus and mercury are all in gemini now, change-able yes, but very versatile and communicative, mercury is also in an opposition to neptune, which could be used in metaphysical pursuits (like astrology!) as soon as you get over the mental fog which this opposition will probably give you for a short time, along with some psycic trauma. Yes you have a challenging period in your life, but it will pass.

[Nate of the 12th]

Actually, I'm less depressed in the last few months. I have a project I have undertaken which keeps me interested and gives me some credits that my moon likes. It also brings money that my sun likes :) I've been on my way to the house of Hades before this thing came together - and at the very last gasping moments I might add. Now it is somewhat bearable, but the fundamental tensions are still there, waiting for the next eruption.

[star2858]

Actually, I'm less depressed in the last few months. I have a project I have undertaken which keeps me interested and gives me some credits that my moon likes. It also brings money that my sun likes :) I've been on my way to the house of Hades before this thing came together - and at the very last gasping moments I might add. Now it is somewhat bearable, but the fundamental tensions are still there, waiting for the next eruption.

I have to agree with Nate about the 12th house.

I am only 20 and i have felt like taking my own life. When problems arise, the thought flashes across my mind and i quickly dismiss them. I think i may have the dispositions as well.

12th house jupiter and moon. Neptune retro in 8th. Jupiter trine Neptune.

What more could i ask for?

[aquarius7000]

Hi Star,

Jup in 12 is also considered a 'guardian-angel' aspect, and you will find this aspect in most celebrity charts for e.g. Also your Jupiter is not in any major hard aspects to other planets in the chart. You also have Venus (planet of small fortune) as the ruler of your chart, in trine to your Asc, and close to your Sun, which means natural good fortune.

Neptune, though basically unafflicted, forms a square to Mer, which might result in some confusion of thought. But this is no insurmountable problem. An 'airy' Mer lends the native an intelligent & progressive thought-process (so just do away with those silly thoughts:p). You also also have no Pluto problems like many others, which is a big thing, believe you me;).

Okay Moon in 12 might make the native a bit withdrawn in his own shell, even lonesome and depressed at times, but again your Moon is unafflicted. And most of the times, it's only matter of what and how you use the energies of a planet in combination to those of the house its placed in for, so it's better to synergise the sensitive Moon to the deep and spiritual energies of house 12 - no house is bad! In fact, people with Nep on 12, and Moon in 12 (such as you), can take it far with spirituality or would do well in social service, as they are full of compassion and empathy.
Also, you have a Grand Trine in your chart again beautifully aspecting Venus to MC and Asc, which also brings luck and good fortune, so cheer up, cause I see no major hassles at all in your chart.

:)aquarius7000

[Arian Maverick]

I know from personal experience that it's difficult to have a stellium of inner planets square two outer planets, and these planets are conjunct the sixth and eighth house cusps--two houses that are considered difficult perhaps due to the fact that they don't form any major aspects to the Ascendant.

This doesn't "doom" you, though, or even necessarily make you inclined toward suicide, but the outer planets in the eighth house may give you an intuitive sense that "death" is transformation. However, "death" does not have to be a death of the physical body--perhaps it can be death of the ego, death of desire, etc.

This is just a thought.

Arian Maverick

[blueheron]

I'd be very careful about reading "suicide" in a chart. VERY CAREFUL. After many years of working with charts, and discovering how frequently (when I really listened to the client,) my "mind scenario" needed adjusting, I'm careful even with the easy stuff. Suicide... DON'T GO THERE.

[Arian Maverick]

Good point, blueheron.

As the saying goes, "The stars incline; they do not impel." How can one possibly look at a chart and say a native is "destined" for suicide?

With this thought in mind, however, perhaps there would be certain astrological portraits that may incline one to have self-destructive--although not necessarily suicidal--thoughts. I suppose one must also take into consideration why a certain individual may wish to take his or her own life.

If anyone on the forums is contemplating suicide, please get help!

I'm sorry, but I couldn't participate in this thread with a clear conscience without stating this.

Arian Maverick

[Hey]

I just want to say-
It's funny how society makes it seems that men are unemotional, yet more men commit suicide than women.

[aquarius7000]

VERY RIGHT Blueheron!!

It's all very well and all right trying to apply astrology to things like a person being 'over-emotional', or having a 'good sense of humour' and even for predictions to a certain extent, but no serious and responsible astrologer would/should actually go as far as endeavouring to read things like 'sexual orientation' of a person or 'suicide', or trying to predict death out of a chart. It's not only absurd and obnoxious, but, as you aptly said Blueheron, it is dangerous.

Sorry, if anyone is inclined to take this as an overreaction, but I think it's necessary to have added a post with this content to this thread as well.

Best wishes
:)aquarius7000

[Nate of the 12th]

I have to agree with Nate about the 12th house.

I am only 20 and i have felt like taking my own life. When problems arise, the thought flashes across my mind and i quickly dismiss them. I think i may have the dispositions as well.

I have observed emotional issues with Aries Moon, it seems to have dramatic inclinations and feels things very intensely. It is even more sensitized by that Neptune square and the 12th house. My mom also has an Aries Moon, in the 8th house with all sorts of quincunxes, and she did have a serious nervous breakdown in the past, but now she manages to use her Gemini sun to alter her perceptions in a positive way. I've noticed that the earth signs on the other hand are more inclined to negative, sometimes morbid thinking, and may in a problematic chart coalesce around it. I've found a lot of Tauruses on support forums I used to hang around.

I did read about a research that found that 9% of the earth's population had some thoughts about suicide. Another research found that 16% of high school students had these thoughts (meaning it's on the rise). It kinda put things into proportions to me, and make me hope that at some point society will not be able to ignore all this pain anymore and make some fundamental changes instead of trying to feed us pills like we're some diseased freaks, and not a product of society itself.

[universal]

Yesterday, June 26/08, my uncle by marriage committed suicide. From what I know, there had been no signs, no depression. There was no note. He was a farmer and a pillar of the church. My aunt, my dad's sister, found him in the barn. He had hung himself.
Everyone is saying, "what the 'h-e-double hockey sticks' happened?" I have found Arian M's postings here, and the article, especially helpful, as the guy's transits didn't seem to be a big deal.

After I heard, I got out my ephemeris and checked his chart and the aunt's (this was her 2nd unsuccessful marriage) and the uncle's sister (who'd also had a 2nd, extremely unhappy marriage, to my Dad.) The sister and the deceased had some kind of strange relationship where they called each other constantly and sort of co-existed as one.
The late uncle was a Pisces Sun, born, I believe March 7/46, the wife Aug 19/36 and the sister Oct. 10, 1940.
Mercury (decision-making faculty?) seemed to be playing a role for the uncle on the day he decided to check out. Transiting Mercury was broadly square his Sun also conjuncted his Uranus. Transiting Moon was probably conjunct his natal Mercury , which is natally opposed by Neptune. Tr. Sun also squared his natal mercury that day, so like I said, Mercury stuff was going on, but aside from that, looked like a pretty good day for him. (Upon further reflection, I note that transiting Jupiter was opposed to his Saturn on the fateful day.)

Back to Arian M's posted article. The author said he found a Saturn/Mars natal chart connection to suicide. That holds true here. The uncle had a natal Saturn Mars conjunction within 3 degrees in Cancer. Mars is square Neptune, but the conjunction is also trine Sun (indicative of a successful attempt?) Arian M's article also mentions Moon and Pluto. The uncle probably had a pretty close natal Pluto square Moon aspect. Arian M. mentioned a neck reference. The uncle's Moon was in Taurus and we all know what that rules.
The wife's transits seemed worse than for the uncle who checked out. She's got tr. Neptune opposing Sun (husband I guess), tr.Mars was conjunct her Sun that day. Tr. Mercury was square her Neptune, and apparently she was clueless till she found him swinging. The wife has a natal T square of Jupiter squaring saturn and also Jupiter squaring neptune, mercury and Venus. She also has Mars square Uranus! Don't have birthtime chart, but apparently, it's not one conducive to a good marriage, or at least one that ends naturally...

A chart comparison of the late husband and the surviving wife is, to me at least, unsavoury. Her Neptune, Mercury ,Venus and probably Moon opposed his Sun and squared his Jupiter and Uranus and her Uranus conjuncted his Moon and squared his Pluto. Her Mars also squared his Moon and conjuncted his Pluto. To top it all off, her Saturn was conjunct his Sun! Going out on a limb here, I think the relationship was the straw that broke the farmer's back.

The sister's chart had an exact conjunction of transiting Saturn conjunct Venus. Tr. Mars was also square an afflicted natal Uranus. The love of her life was cruelly taken.
We are still left wondering 'why', although I got to say, I'm not one to dwell on the question. My gut feeling is his action was a passive-aggressive (runs in that family, believe me) ****-*** to everybody he left behind. Good luck in the next world uncle. I think you'll need it.

[NeptuneAscendant]

I just want to say-
It's funny how society makes it seems that men are unemotional, yet more men commit suicide than women.

I think both sexes can be very emotional. More commonly (and I'm not trying to be stereotypical, but most of the time, this is how things are), women express their emotions, whereas men tend to keep them to themselves.

---

I'd look for a negatively-aspected Moon (Depressive feelings), Mars (violence), Saturn (Pessimism), Uranus (Sudden changes), Neptune (not seeing things how they truly are; could make them see things worse than what the truly are), Pluto (elimination; eruptive change).

Also, the Lord of the Eighth House, if in adverse aspect to many of these planets could indicate suicidal tendencies.

Maybe a crowded Eighth or Twelfth House could support the suicidal tendencies, if any other signs of suicidal tendencies are found in the chart.

[Nate of the 12th]

I just want to say-
It's funny how society makes it seems that men are unemotional, yet more men commit suicide than women.
Actually it seems men are more successful in carrying it through. Women make more failed/symbolic attempts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_suicide

[Otay]

I've noticed time and again how a family line is 'tainted' just by example of one who commits suicide. It's amazing how just about anything makes it into the genes, whether it be dad playing the mandolin around a birth of one of his children, or does himself in.
Then of course we're getting into nature vs nurture. Someone you look up to doesn't think his child is important enough to stick around for. "What's the use?" the child might say and attempt the same thing dad did later in life. It is a stain on the soul of those that remain. Very terrible thing to do to your children, I've often thought this and have seen what it does to a child's image of themselves. It can destroy them. They might be the future adult who commits suicide after having a child or two of their own. On and on goes the legacy.

Mars/saturn aspects can be rather black & white, do or die, as well as disciplined.

Arian, I've noticed OFTEN how mars/saturn conjunctions are accompanied by venus/jupiter conjunctions.
This seems either quite devoted to a cause of kindness and goodness with action to back it up and build something.
More often it tends to be incredibly simplistic, like the concept of "patriotism".

[Otay]

Surely there are exceptions to every rule in astrology, and I found Uranus and Aquarius influences somewhat contraindicatory to depression, because it gives the ability to "disconnect" emotionally. Also the problems with Capricorn seem to come up when the person is not working at some goal, not trying to climb some mountain. My Pluto influences and 12th / 8th house combos make me spiritually question everything, so I cannot go work at some supermarket chain just to get myself busy, because the fake-feeling it gives me just depresses me further.

I know Air signs often have the ability to use intellectual ideation to change any negative focus, I see my Gemini mom doing it and she's often tries to sell it to me, but my negativity is too consolidated and I just despise life. I hate having to work hard at everything and not being able to feel any enjoyment (taurus thing). Neither can I fake enjoyment, as much as relatives and friends wish me to.....

Nate, your chart speaks of a natural meditator who has reached a point where 'jollying you up' seems ludicrous. I swear, awareness of life and suffering is a prime spot to be in before channeling your mind and becoming a scientist of mind-physics. You are poised to take a leap in such a direction especially when there's nowhere else to go that matters to you. Use it then!

There's got to be a Tibetan buddhist "dharamadhatu" nearby where you live.

I say this in absolute respect for whatever your beliefs are, and am not attempting to shove 'religion' down your throat. Trust this: it's not about religion because that's just more bs. It's about making friends with yourself and discovering tenderness and empathy for yourself. Gentle discipline.

Go deeper into those walls you stare at and whether they're solid or not.

Cheerio!

[Otay]

Universal, you said:

"The sister and the deceased had some kind of strange relationship where they called each other constantly and sort of co-existed as one.
The late uncle was a Pisces Sun, born, I believe March 7/46, the wife Aug 19/36 and the sister Oct. 10, 1940."

Looks and sounds like they parented one another judging from their charts their parents pretty much left them high and dry and so depended upon one another for family warmth.

[Natasha]

I have read it said that suicide can occur when a person unconsciously refuses to transform some part of themselves in some way when the astrological transits (maybe also progressions as well) are requesting that this be done.
Rather than make the really hard changes inside which the 'higher self' is requesting the person opts out
Of course much heavy stuff would have gone on to lead to this probably and likely a continuing refusal to move from their current status quo at an inner level.
It could be they just cannot (maybe refuse on an unconscious level) to make the big hard changes.
My auntie is disgusted about suicide as she had 2 rounds with cancer & fought for her life (successfully) and made some very very hard changes at an inner level. I can see what she is saying as her life has become so much richer & positive due to her 'hard yards'. But I suppose some souls just cant get past it this time around. Of course re-incarnationist say we just come back to try again and I am inclined to feel that could be possible
Now surely the outers are around when this kind of event occurs. It seems Neptune is the most likely as he erodes our current ego identity wanting us to replace it with a more suitable (& not necessarily more altruistic either) identity

[universal]

Thanks for your expertise on this Otay. I think you described the situation pretty well between the sister and her late brother. It is unfortunate that their lifeline, for some reason, did not remain viable. Due to conflicts with the sister (who tried to to sue us for more money than the will gave her, after my Dad died), my family was unable to attend the services today. My source told me the wife was inconsolable, and the sister looked cool as a cucumber (Libra with Aqu. Moon...)
Natasha made the point about how suicide can happen when someone refuses to transform themselves in some way when transits request this be done. The uncle had, in the last couple years, experienced Uranus conjunct his Sun (and square his Uranus). Clue?
Back to the Saturn/Mars connection to suicide, as per the article. Sakoian and Acker's "The Astrologer's Handbook", elaborates on how the Mars conjunct Saturn aspect can work and when applied in context of suicide, it's chilling: "...Often the natives suppress their anger until it suddenly erupts. In a heavily afflicted horoscope...organized, deliberate destruction could follow..."

[universal]

Well this is a post I did not want to write, but I guess it's a hazard of the field.
I was assured in a bar, a couple days ago, by the suicide uncle's good friend that the uncle was indeed 60 years old, which would put his birth year in 1948 and not 1946. Perhaps the wife had told me he was born in '46 so it wouldn't look so awful - that she was not 12, but only 10 years older than him. Who knows?
At time of doing himself in, then, uncle had been enduring Neptune conjunct his Mercury at around 22 degrees Aquarius, and among other things, Uranus was square Uranus. Natally the actual birthchart, if I can trust THIS data, also had the aspect of Mars conjunct Saturn and Saturn was also conjunct Pluto and the first conjunction was opposing that Mercury in Aquarius. RIP!
Late Edit
I apologize to this communiity for the misinformation of uncle's birthdate. Again , RIP uncle!

[Nexus7]

I'd be very careful about reading "suicide" in a chart. VERY CAREFUL. After many years of working with charts, and discovering how frequently (when I really listened to the client,) my "mind scenario" needed adjusting, I'm careful even with the easy stuff. Suicide... DON'T GO THERE.

Someone told me I should have sued the woman who told me I would commit suicide unless I gave up my artistic direction and just thought about making money instead. At the time I was on the dole did have concerns about the feasibility of getting off it and being left alone. She also predicted I would leave the country, which I did. She was a good reader. But there was either a poison tip of envy there, or she was just the kind of person who gets excited by the slightest sign of disagreement in another of her opinions.

Interestingly enough, the organisation who sent her to me for vetting could see nothing wrong with the fact that she was going round making suicide predictions.

In point of fact, not being creative artistically is far worse than being creative in the face of indifference (and occasionaly, hostility).

I think I also mentioned the case of the boy I read for who had been told he would commit suicide by a certain date.

However, if there is a very depressed vibe coming from someone in the course of a reading, I do think it could be worth just checking whether or not they might be thinking of doing anything stupid. If they then say yes, then it might be possible to steer them towards the help they need.

[Hey]

Have you seen the chart of that model, Ruslana Korshunova? She committed suicide last week.

[Otay]

Have you seen the chart of that model, Ruslana Korshunova? She committed suicide last week.
Yes. You inspired me to look. Poor kid, she's just 6 1/2 weeks older than my son.
There's something about how vulnerable and thin the veil with young people between 19-22 or so. They are discovering the perameters of our limited square world while theirs is round and permeable (out of body experiences, etc., especially when under stress).
Her chart is very tied to sentiment, home and mother. She was homesick and her world was unreal. Her father, apparently committed suicide when she was six.
Which underscores my earlier point about what suicide does to children.
If you won't do it for yourself, then hang in for them. PLEASE.

[Pelagic87]

This is a very interesting albeit morbid thread. I hope I didn't get here too late, anyways, with regards to suicide, I have pluto in the 8th house and in retrospect I have found that the times when I have contemplated suicide it has typically been done with a desire to transcend the current situation, to spite the status quo if you will. Sort of like, wow, I'm not gonna take this sh*t so lets see what you all do if I'm dead. I find this very interesting because it goes very much into the whole issue of power that pluto involves. Basically I am retaining my own power over things by deciding whether or not I live or die. Keep in mind, the above situations that I stated occured before I knew anything about astrology so its very interesting to look back and see how they fit right in.

[Otay]

Pelagic87, the only one I can think of with that sort of attitude was Hunter Thompson. But he was in lousy health and think his decision was based upon that. Plus, all those years of drug abuse fried his pleasure receptors (ability to feel a sense of wellbeing).
Just having pluto in scorpio in the eigth is hardly an indicator for suicide especially since the planetary arrangement is far more complex and childhood experience/ life circumstances are quite intense and are usually depressed and turn destruction against themselves because they are lost.
Then again, just about everybody hits some serious lows, develop patience and come out the other side without seriously considering self-destruction.

If you have aries rising, mars, which is scorpio's co-ruler is rising which is pretty fearless and hardly will allow themselves to be stuck for long in any circumstance.

[Vicious]

Katles,

Can you post your chart?

My unprofessional guess is that you're suffering from depression, and need a check-up to see if medication would be helpful.

Mars (conjunct?) Saturn (maybe conjunct Pluto wide as well?) is often a type of depression. The other things you mention aren't by themselves indicators (Mercury sq. Uranus just means you're intelligent, e.g.)

I think when we look at Neptune trines, e.g. jupiter trine neptune in water signs, that isn't by itself indicative of suicide, rather tendency to easy escapism, so that if other indicators are harsh enough that route may be chosen. The whole chart needs to be looked at.

[Claire19]

i've only considered suicide in astrology studies through one chart, which I don't believe I even have the natal chart for anymore. a friend of mine had a friend who did the unthinkable, and i had a look at it. the major factor I saw was saturn opposing the natal uranus, meaning she felt restricted in her sense of individuality and identity, which quite well described the reason for her unfortunate decision. her inability (restriction) to expressing herself, and the hardships it caused her, drove her into a very deep form of depression and self-doubt. with no outlet, and nobody who she really connected with, she was helpless, or so she felt.

i would imagine there would be predisposition in the natal chart as well, but i didnt see it...

jupiter/neptune linkage can cause excessive idealism, and make this world seem really drab. if not properly handled, that could be a major problem.
Neptune, Moon, Saturn and Pluto with Mercury for negative thinking are markers for suicide. JUpiter tends to exaggerate whatever it is aspecting. We need to look at the whole chart and the 8th and 12th house also. One aspect does not tell anywhere near the full story. There are many combinations.

[Claire19]

Katles,

Can you post your chart?

My unprofessional guess is that you're suffering from depression, and need a check-up to see if medication would be helpful.

Mars (conjunct?) Saturn (maybe conjunct Pluto wide as well?) is often a type of depression. The other things you mention aren't by themselves indicators (Mercury sq. Uranus just means you're intelligent, e.g.)

I think when we look at Neptune trines, e.g. jupiter trine neptune in water signs, that isn't by itself indicative of suicide, rather tendency to easy escapism, so that if other indicators are harsh enough that route may be chosen. The whole chart needs to be looked at.

Mercury square Uranus is an indicate of instability and bi polar or a nervous condition. May be very bright also but can feel that ideas are way ahead of your time and others do not appreciate your brilliance.

[Claire19]

Now i know why i'm such a cheer up.:rolleyes:

/JJ

Capricorn tends to pessmism and negativity. Too serious and needing to achieve at all costs sometimes. Aquarius can indicate instability and erratic influences although can also indicate brilliance and great ingenuity. Also detachment can cause loneliness because of lack of intimacy.

[Vicious]

Now i know why i'm such a cheer up.:rolleyes:

/JJ

It seems plain enough to me -- North Node one degree before Venus in 5th in cappy.

Follow your north and you'll cheer up. :)

How do I interpret that? Schedule regular fun activities, whether you FEEL like doing them or not. :p

[Claire19]

Good point, blueheron.

As the saying goes, "The stars impel; they do not compel." How can one possibly look at a chart and say a native is "destined" for suicide?

With this thought in mind, however, perhaps there would be certain astrological portraits that may incline one to have self-destructive--although not necessarily suicidal--thoughts. I suppose one must also take into consideration why a certain individual may wish to take his or her own life.

If anyone on the forums is contemplating suicide, please get help!

I'm sorry, but I couldn't participate in this thread with a clear conscience without stating this.

Arian Maverick

The stars impel they do not compel.

[Lissa]

I am putting up my chart for research purpuoses-I have tried it three times-eecks,I can't even say the word now!It wasn't that long ago,really.I did it three times within one year,not to count the times where I fantasized about it.I can't even think about it now,not because I don't feel like this is all pointless but only because my family would be destroyed if I died,and my mom would hate me forever,as her sister committed suicide about 3/4 years ago and she resent her a lot,mostly due to the fact that her death completely destroyed my grandmother.I've been diagnosed bipolar and I was heavily medicated for a while,taking 5 different pills in one day alone.In my chart,I believe the signs of suicide are:

Moon square Uranus
Mercury square Uranus
Venus square Saturn for depression
Venus square Chiron for more depression and feelings of being unworthy/not enough
Moon sextile Saturn
Jupiter opposite Saturn
Mars quincunx Pluto
Sun square Mars(anger directed at self)

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/Lissa_C17/Melissa.gif

[wilsontc]

Lissa,

You said:
I have tried it three times...I can't even think about it now...my family would be destroyed if I died,and my mom would hate me forever,as her sister committed suicide about 3/4 years ago and she resent her a lot,mostly due to the fact that her death completely destroyed my grandmother.

That's the way to handle the suicide urge: keep reminding yourself of all the people in the world who would be worse off if you left before your time.

Non-astrologically,

Tim

[archergirl]

I don't think there is an astrological basis for suicide. Suicide is *entirely* a personal choice, and is done for many different reasons, by people with vastly differing charts. Many people have difficult charts. How many people were born on the same day as you, Lissa, and have similarly challenging charts? Now, how many of those have given up? I think you'd find it's statistically very small. Even difficult charts can be managed, with gentleness toward oneself, and self-awareness. You have plenty of self-awareness; you just need to give yourself some time to figure out how to manage your feelings in a more constructive way.

AG:)

[EJ53]

.....my family would be destroyed if I died

You'd be very much missed on by this "forum family" too, Lissa......I always find your posts heartwarming and encouraging, even when you're feeling down yourself.......Sometimes we forget how many lives are changed for the better by our own (and often without us ever knowing about it).

EJ:)

[Vicious]

"Mercury square Uranus is an indicate of instability and bi polar or a nervous condition. May be very bright also but can feel that ideas are way ahead of your time and others do not appreciate your brilliance."

From my experience there are plenty of smart (Merc sq Ura) people without bipolar disorder.

[archergirl]

From my experience there are plenty of smart (Merc sq Ura) people without bipolar disorder.

Yup. I'm one of them. Weird? Yes. Changeable? Yes. Bipolar? Nope.

AG:)

[Lissa]

Thank you EJ,your words really melted my heart and I kind of needed it:o I do think you can suicidal tendencies in a chart,otherwise why wouldn't all people born the same day have the exact same lives?Anyway glad I am past that,just need to fin my fuel once more.

[Serendipity]

I think planet placements/aspects make you prone to certain ways of thinking or acting, key word being prone...((I haven't read thru all the posts under this thread).
I find that many people with first house Saturns seem to consider suicide more often. Heavy doses of planets in Capricorn as well. There also seems to be an astrological signature with Mars conjunct or square the nodal axis for a violent end.
But I tend to think that transits would have an impact on the final decision to check out so to speak.
My brother in law committed suicide .. he had 4 planets in Capricorn (including Saturn) and transiting Uranus/Neptune were on his Sun. Transiting Saturn on his Chiron and he was having his Mars return.

[Claire19]

Does anyone have any comments about possible suicide found in a birth chart.
Many scenarios. Neptune in the 12th or heavily aspected. Pluto with Sun and Mercury and Saturn. Combinations of these. Moon also.

I have Mercury Pluto Saturn Conjunct in the sixth and have had suicidal thoughts because of lack of employment and having no money. I was rescued by various means. Wont bore anyone with all that. However later I became a natural therapist and was able to work on negative emotions which helped to heal the issues in time. That they sextile Neptune Mars in the 8th I think have saved me as I realise the implications of a life not lived through and that we return to do it again and fulfill that contract and my cognisance of reincarnation etc. The 8th deals with major transformations through crises as well. What doesnt kill us makes us stronger as they say.

[astropsychologist]

I have a friend who committed suicide, I don't know his time of birth however I checked his chart when it happened. Natally he had Moon square Neptune, Pluto had been transiting over his Neptune for the last year of his life and when Mars came into conjunction with Pluto, he ended his life.

I think the Mars transit is interesting, people who suffer from depression often report that they lack the energy to kill themselves, a Mars transit lends them the energy to go through with it. So if you're worried about someone, I think watching Mars might be something to watch in their charts.

[aquarius7000]

I agree that Mars can often act as a catalyst. What it usually does is relaease or vent those stuck up emotions often too brutally. I knew someone, too, who contemplated this (but is doing better now, and has understood that there are other ways of dealing with one's fears), and he had a natal 1° Sat-Moon opposition, and had a poor mental health with many insecurities. At the time when he had his close call, Mars was conjunct his Moon. I have to mention though that Uranus was also trining his Moon at that time.

AQ7

[Shining Ray]

It can depend on the type of suicide, some people want to commit suicide all their life. Others have no real motive for suicide and sometimes a tragic incident happens in their life, and they suddenly want to end it all. Mercury-Pluto can have morbid thoughts about death and the taboo aspect of life, and they can have quite self-destructive thoughts. I did a suicide chart recently, and she had this apsect. Kurt Cobain also had the same aspect, and I have seen it present in a few other individual's. Obviously, one aspect does not mean suicide, sometimes it is a mitigating factor. Another aspect pretty common is Jupiter-Saturn, it represents great optimism followed by depression and a bleak outlook on life. It has it's positive attributions too, and it really all depends on how the individual works with these elements in their nature. Many suicides are linked to mental illness and this can't be seen in the natal chart. A study of the transits at the time of a suicide is always useful and can help us understand what type of influence they are under.

[Arian Maverick]

Has anyone discovered a connection between certain fixed stars and suicide? I remember I was quite horrified when I discovered that Scheat--a malefic star indicative of suicide and drowning--is conjunct my Ascendant. Fortunately, I have not yet succumbed to either.

Arian Maverick

[Claire19]

Katles

I've read that a JUpiter/Neptune trine can indicate suicidal inclinations and was common among suicides. www.nodeorama.com/viewtopic.php?id=2436 (http://www.nodeorama.com/viewtopic.php?id=2436).

I'm inclined to agree - having a 12th house neptune trining Jupiter! :) I don't do very well with Jupiter transits at all!! I just can't see Mr big and bouncy all things wonderful as anything like that!

Any help, or is it too pessimistic and fatalistic - oops tr nep has his eye on my Jupiter!!

hel
12th house Neptune can be heavy but a trine to Jupiter should give you an interest in religions, matters of faith and philosophical views. Jupiter transits hitting your other planets that are not well aspected will exaggerate the influences.

I find that suicide belongs to Pluto and Neptune perhaps and in contact with the personal planets such as Moon, Sun and Mercury. Saturn for pessimism and a sense of doom. Suicidal thoughts such as I have had belong to my Saturn Mercury Pluto conjunctions. That I have been saved is indicated by the sextiles to Mars Neptune and Venus.....wont go into it all....

[Claire19]

I think that Pluto and Saturn have to be involved and perhaps Neptune. The reasons are as varied as the natal chart involved. There have to be heavy transits triggering off natal inclinations.

For myself I have been suicidal more than once and due to lack of work and no money. I was once prone to depression which may have been clinical and change of diet alleviated it to a great extent.

Saturn Mercury Pluto in the 6th. I have a square to Moon in the 3rd to Pluto too. The Saturn returns can be dangerous times. I was saved by planets in the 8th house of others assets being sextile to the 6th house planets with being given money to continue until I found work again. The sun square MC and opposing ascendant and I hated the way I looked when young and it impacted on my social life, Saturn in Leo 5th cusp. I have always felt unlovable and had to deal with that for many years until I learned to appreciate my own good qualilties.

There are so many combinations and aspects that can point to suicide.

[simplyinsight]

SUICIDE

Let me break it down for what actually I might look for when I read for people regarding this tendency:

Committing and/or succeeding in a suicidal action is a selfish action. You'd need to assert first of all that it was promised to them in their birthchart and that there is a motive for doing so, stemming from birth. If you are secured a lifetime of feeling loved from every angle, there is very little "chance". Not all who are completely unloved and unsupported are suicidal at some point in their life and visa versa, but I'm simply saying it has to be promised to them. The imprint of "This is OK to do" has to be there in the chart.

Eclipses have powerful effects as far as the "temporary" potentials and "immediate" reasons for truly carrying out the act of suicide. The person may not see that it is a temporary problem- the illusion might be that "things can never be the same", when in fact, it simply has changed for a soul-orchestrated reason (i.e. the loss of several family members and therefore feeling alone, down and out... or a loss of an important career path...). These are truly sad, but the soul is asking for experience in standing in a new pathway, in quite a major way. If it's too overwhelming, eclipses can show stress patterns being initiated or rapidly energized throughout the "suicidal" period of time. There are ways to cope with these powerful effects by seeing that the influences last for a short period of time compared to the length of a human life and that there is much more to live for than the immediate troubles (to name a couple).

Suicidal people tend to show up with a degree of stubborn behaviors in their charts and act in this way throughout their lifetime (and will continually have problems relating and seeing where they can agree with the rest of society). Not all stubborn, anti-society types will commit suicide, but they have a higher chance. This is shown in the chart. This does not necessarily mean that the person will be a mean a-hole, but rather, they will tend to do things their way and have a harder time taking others' advice or seeing reasons outside of their own. Again- it's a selfish thing here.

Aggressive acts towards Self will be shown in the predictive analyses at the time of the suicide, or close within a few days even. No one just randomly decides out of their depression to commit suicide - there must be a charged energy, causing one to truly move forward with the secret desire of burying their hurt/anguish in such a selfish and brutal act of suicide.

These are just a few points I have in mind while analyzing a suicidal's chart.

[simplyinsight]

Also another thing that I've seen is where the chart is chalked full of difficult alignments, let's say-- to Mars, since it rules self-ish action, the Ego-talking that happens during times of despair (versus listening to Spirit Within oneself)-- and a transit or major progression or series and combinations of any of these would form a rather light, easy, and happy alignment to the difficult natal alignments, and bam... the person is in a stress unit or they've relapsed ... simply because the "ease" of these energies is too unbearable. The mind is trapped in only knowing difficulty... so it's rather overwhelming to see such foreign and "light" energy at work.