Combined Essential+Accidental Dignity & Debility

[byjove]

There must be more than me out there! Of course! And the threads
on EITHER of the terms above are very useful, but I still haven't resolved this
and it has come up again!

The culprit:

Mercury in Pisces - Essential Debility
Mercury tightly conjunct MC -Accidental Dignity

Mercury out of Sect - following the Sun in Diurnal
Triplicity ruler -Mars
Face ruler -Mars
Term ruler- Mars

Here Mercury is out of Sect, but in a wide sextile to Mars; the planet
it disposes (Gemini) and He is the triplicity, face and term ruler.

Mars in return is in Mercury's term (a kind of mutual reception?)

Also to note, aspects;

Mercury square Uranus - speeding up the slow, Pisces effect? 1.1 degrees
Mercury trine ascendant - speeding metal functions and delivering them better 0.3.

So how does he fare? And for those with similar planets, feel free to lay them on the table for consideration!

[BobZemco]

You know not everyone considers accidental dignities. Some of the Ancients did, some didn't.

When you're looking at Term and Face, as far as Mutual Reception, there usually has to be two of each.

In other words, this would be Mutual Reception:

Triplicity + Term
Triplicity + Face
Term + Face

So two planets in each others Terms isn't enough to qualify as Mutual Reception.

You know Bonatti and Doretheus used the Egyptian Faces, but Lily and Ptolemy did not, and to make matters worse, Bonatti, Doretheus, Lily and Ptolemy each had their own set of Terms that varied from each other.

With Mars in the Term of Mercury, you have only Reception, where Mercury receives Mars.

This bit from Bernadette Brady might help you with the Mercury thing:

A planet can gain or lose from an aspect through reception. A planet receives another planet if it is in a sign in which the other planet has some dignity (rulership,exaltation or any two of term, triplicity ruler or face). The second planet receives the first. The first planet receives the virtue or nature of the second planet. However, if the first planet is retrograde or cadent, then it cannot carry the gift and it will return it to the second planet.

This is to the benefit of the second planet unless it is retrograde or cadent because it cannot handle the return of its burden and thus is greatly weakened by the exchange.

For example, if Mercury is at 2°20 Aries and is applying to a trine of Mars at 2°30 Leo, then the Mars receives Mercury because Mercury is in a place where Mars has dignity. Mars then gives a gift or strength to Mercury. If, however, the Mercury was natally in the 6th house, then it cannot receive the gift Mars offers. In addition, if the Mars was also cadent or retrograde then the return of the gift will weaken the Mars. This is like a heavy bundle being passed to another, only to find, to one’s dismay, it being returned.

[dr. farr]

...and then, of course, there are the monomoiria (as ancient as Dorotheus of Sidon, prior to Ptolemy), which I (personally) have come to value more (for practical purposes) than terms/bounds; also, in coming to a final "dignity" judgement, either the application of Egyptian (Valens) or Pauline (Paulus Alexandrianus) dodekatemorion must also be taken into account (that is if you believe Valens or P.Alexandianus regarding the importance of dodeks in coming to a final or complete conclusion regarding a planet's dignity)

[byjove]

I'm surprised the Trickster evades yet again...

A brief paraphrasing of other's views on him, as I briefly mentioned in another thread...

positive
He is 'saved by the bell' by the MC, and that placing plus the AC trine allows for self-healing and understanding of a strong degree. The Merc-Uranus square is perhaps an example where a 'negative' aspect helps -speeding up the (in this case with Mercury), debiliting influences of the Fishes.

negative
He's a thief who just got upgraded weapons; like a Don coming to power...bad becoming worse. And worse yet again, being of the highest visibility is damaging to reputation, and these things are the world's (partial) consideration of the individual.

Of course, the two statements are quite opposite, and maybe there's a shade of both...but I'd sure like to get to the bottom of it. Another experienced astrologer on here suggested his ranking ABOVE the Sun/Jupiter...I'd be a fool to dismiss any suggestion of someone with better knowledge on a matter than myself. However...whichever way I calculate it...the Sun seems fairly fortified...(has multiple hidden dignities in Ptolemy's table, added to the aspects, angularity, exaltation etc.).

I'm currently going through rare and old astrology books and I've just begun to hit some of this and will report back. In the below book, the author suggests dignity in a place of exaltation by sign, and more by degree. So Sun at 19 degrees of Aries has stronger exaltation, and a Sun in Aries still exalted.

Astrologie Restored by William Ramsey, London, 1653

[BobZemco]

I'm surprised the Trickster evades yet again...

Mercury is Oriental (a negative), while the Sun is Slow (a negative) but in Hayz (a positive) and according to Bonatus, Ptolemy and Lily, Mercury is Peregrine.

He is 'saved by the bell' by the MC, and that placing plus the AC trine allows for self-healing and understanding of a strong degree. The Merc-Uranus square is perhaps an example where a 'negative' aspect helps -speeding up the (in this case with Mercury), debiliting influences of the Fishes.

In classical astrology, a trine to the Ascendant is meaningless.

I use Octaves, so in my book Uranus is the upper octave of Mercury and co-rules Virgo (which Mercury doesn't like anyway since he prefers Gemini). Mutable Earth if far more descriptive of Uranus than the idiotic Fixed Air.

It's well known that Mercury in square, opposition or parallel to Jupiter can trigger earthquakes, and my research shows the same thing with Uranus. Uranus doesn't like being in Fixed Signs, so there's earthquake triggers there too.

Unless Mercury or Uranus are severely debilitated, besieged, etc, a Mercury square Uranus is a wonderful thing to behold.

Someone else here posted a chart with Mercury square Uranus on the 7/10 axis and mentioned that was excellent (and I'm green with envy).

Venus is the Almuten of both the 9th and 10th Houses, and Venus is in good position being Exalted and in its own Triplicity, plus Venus is in the rulership and face of Jupiter, so that would actually help both the Sun and Mercury.

[byjove]

Hmmm

So you'd rank the Venus above Mercury? As you've demonstrated by the different levels of dignity. I see. (ponders Bjork's song; Venus as a Boy :w00t:)

OK I think I understand this a lot better. And I've a better grasp of where I am with these planets. So the Sun and Venus are particularly beneficial, and perhaps good transits, depending on other factors?

And octaves...yes. The lower octave Quartile the higher one. I thought that would be a boost. If I didn't have a strong Sun/Saturn trine I'd expect to have become at least part-alcoholic with that Mercury.:whistling: Instead I've gone for the non-dangerous Pisces interests; film fan, music, aesthetic appreciation (escapism in a safe way). And retrospectively it was a good choice to train the mind through national/international debating while younger.

Thanks for the help Bob, and the way you express things sometimes is hilarious;

"I use Octaves, so in my book Uranus is the upper octave of Mercury and co-rules Virgo (which Mercury doesn't like anyway since he prefers Gemini). Mutable Earth if far more descriptive of Uranus than the idiotic Fixed Air."

Even if I wasn't intrigued by that argument before, I'd definitely like to hear what you've to say with an opener like that :biggrin:

[Claire19]

Mercury is Oriental (a negative), while the Sun is Slow (a negative) but in Hayz (a positive) and according to Bonatus, Ptolemy and Lily, Mercury is Peregrine.



In classical astrology, a trine to the Ascendant is meaningless.

I use Octaves, so in my book Uranus is the upper octave of Mercury and co-rules Virgo (which Mercury doesn't like anyway since he prefers Gemini). Mutable Earth if far more descriptive of Uranus than the idiotic Fixed Air.

It's well known that Mercury in square, opposition or parallel to Jupiter can trigger earthquakes, and my research shows the same thing with Uranus. Uranus doesn't like being in Fixed Signs, so there's earthquake triggers there too.

Unless Mercury or Uranus are severely debilitated, besieged, etc, a Mercury square Uranus is a wonderful thing to behold.

Someone else here posted a chart with Mercury square Uranus on the 7/10 axis and mentioned that was excellent (and I'm green with envy).

Venus is the Almuten of both the 9th and 10th Houses, and Venus is in good position being Exalted and in its own Triplicity, plus Venus is in the rulership and face of Jupiter, so that would actually help both the Sun and Mercury.
Mutable Earth for Uranus???? It is the science of aviation, fixed body in the air waves, it rules radio and television, same thing. It rules thunder and lightning, it is the sky god.

[BobZemco]

Mutable Earth for Uranus???? It is the science of aviation, fixed body in the air waves, it rules radio and television, same thing. It rules thunder and lightning, it is the sky god.

Are you suggesting Rams perform surgery?

No one seems to have a problem with Venus and love and beauty and art being Fixed Earth/Cardinal Air, yet oddly Venus was a War Goddess for 7,000 years before the Greeks messed things up.

And of course we have Neptune the Sea God ruling all that glitters, film and television (according March and McEvers -- yes, modern astrologers can't even agree exactly on who rules television).

The Ancients did not relate the Signs to what was invented at the time. It wasn't, "Oh, look, Chef Zuzuba invented Crab Cakes and Crab Etouffee so we need a new sign...how about Cancer?"

They used careful long term observation (which is clearly lacking with the three outer planets).

Jupiter (Fixed Fire/Mutable Water) rules birds, so it is not out of line for Uranus and airplanes to be Mutable Earth.

Lee Lehman and a growing number of astrologers are seriously questioning the rulerships of Uranus and Neptune. Nobody has a problem with Pluto in Scorpio, but the others were clearly based on pie-in-the-sky twisted romantic notions and not careful observation.