Horary Test: Should I have this operation?

[Radu]

After Where are the missing girls? (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16148) and Will I keep my job? (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2539), here's the third horary chart for practice.
Just to remember everyone that they are free to start new threads in the horary section, presenting different horary charts with a known outcome in order to improve everyone's horary skills.
Start the title with "Horary Test:". Add the necessary background info, chart data, and after several comments were made, reveal the correct answer.

Background: The querent had beed advised to undergo major surgery to correct a congenital problem in his legs. His doctors advised breaking and resetting his left hip: an operation which he expected, from previous experience, to leave him unable to work for months, if not years.
Recently the problem had improved by itself. The querent thought that a minor operation on his right knee might be all that was required. So he asked the question: "Should I have this operation?". (the major one, not to the minor knee operation).

Chart data: Sep 17, 1996; 3:59 pm GMT, London.
ASC 25Cap34; MC 28Sco40.

http://www.publicupload.com/files/havetheoperation.gif

[lilllybelle]

Is surgery ruled by a certain house, or should we be looking towards the 6th house for health issues? Lilllybelle

[Howl]

Is surgery ruled by the planet Mars and the sign Scorpio? This is my guess, because I seem to remember Mars rules anything to do with sharp implements, like scalpels :p and there seems to be a natural connection to it's nocturnal sign; Scorpio, which I believe is associated with healing. Also, nocturnal rulership would reflect the fact that you're going to be unconscious during major surgery?? Go easy on me, just guessing :D

If I am correct, then we'd be paying attention to Mars in the 7H and Scorpio on the 9H cusp, as well as anything connected to 6H. I notice that the moon is in Scorpio. No idea what the significance of those house placements would be though.

Capricorn rising, is that making some reference to bones? As in, they need to be broken?? :p

Also, is Uranus 1H opposite Mars 7H? (I have trouble reading this type of chart). All things aside, hard aspects between Uranus and Mars probably don't bode well for surgery, right?

[Radu]

Capricorn rising sets the chart theme = bones issue. It also describes the querent - one who has a problem with his bones.

Mars is indeed the natural ruler of surgery. (Scorpio no)

The house assignement goes like this:
- 1st house - the querent, also his health
- 6th house - the illness
- 7th house - the treating physician
- 10th house - the treatement - in this case it is ruled by Mars, surgery, as it should be

In general, in weighting health issues it's important to decide who's stronger - the 6th house ruler or the 1st house ruler - the illness or body; if the 6th house ruler is stronger, the illness will prevail.
Now include in the equation the other significators.
Assess the planets' strenght (by essential dignities), observe the aspects and the direction the planets move to, consider the existing reception between significators.

[fensi88]

I would not advice him to have operation and here is why:
All "actors" in this "drama" are peregrine, without power: Sa- patient, Moon- doctor, Mars-operation- surgeon. Mars is in Sun sign where Sa is in detriment so operation "does not love" petient, so it would not help him a lot. Second, Me is retrograde So I would suggest him do postpone operation.

[blumen]

I don't think he should have surgery either.

The Moon is in fall, peregrine, decreasing in light and accidentally debilitated (9th house). The physician perhaps had no clue about the treatment and hence recommended surgery, and quite strongly too (Mars in in the seventh house, and the Moon is disposed by Mars)

The patient was not in good health. Of all the four significators, Saturn is the most debilitated. The fact he was considering having surgery is indicated by Saturn being in the faces of Mars and disposed by Mars. But judging by Saturn's debilities, I doubt his body could take surgery. Also Saturn was conjunct the South Node.

Mars was peregrine: the treatment would do neither hard nor good. It would not change the situation much. Maybe the patient was considering that surgery would have improved his looks (Venus separes a conjunction from Mars)

The real issue at stake here is the illness. Mercury is very strong, but its strenght is significantly reduced by combustion and retrogradation.

There is no approaching aspect between Mars (surgery) and Mercury (illness). So in the end I think the patient refused to have surgery. Saturn and Mars are in trine, but Saturn is in retrograde motion: the patient is refusing to have surgery. Mercury and the Moon are sextile, but Mercury is retrograde: the illness moves away from the physician. Receptions does not seem as strong as to indicate that the patient would undergo surgery. Saturn is disposed by Mars. Either he had surgery before, or he had been strongly adviced to have surgery. Saturn is anyway in the ealtation and triplicity of the Sun. Mars is received by Saturn only by terms and faces. These dignities are not strong enough.

Judging from all these, I think he refused to have surgery and the problem kept improving by itself.

[Radu]

This is also a difficult chart.

Indeed, as you both noticed very well, the querent's planets are in a terrible condition: Saturn in exile, peregrine and retrograde, the Moon in exile and peregrine. His health is obviously very bad and still deteriorating.
In the meantime the disease significator is very strong: Mercury is in its own domicile, exaltation and face, and also cazimi (not combust). Mercury is also retrograding, meaning that the disease will return to a previous state: which is, as we remember from the background story, a more serious disease ("Recently the problem had improved by itself."). So the disease is not only serious, but it's getting worse.

What is to do? The treatement the physician proposes is surgery. We see Mars, the ruler of the 10th house (treatement) in the 7th house (physician). Mars is disposed by the Sun, also 7th house ruler - representing the physician (Leo represents the most part of the 7th house).
Mars is peregrine (the surgery is not a good option), but at least it is received by Saturn in its term and face (although also in Saturn's detriment) - the surgery might be welcomed by the querent in some degree, but it'll do a lot of harm as well - we already know that: the physician is planning to broke his hip and then reposition it. That's not pleasant, for sure.
Let's see further if the treatement by surgery is any good: does it has any power over the disease? Indeed, Mars disposes Mercury by term, while Mercury doesn't dispose Mars, meaning that Mars has power over Mercury, the surgery will improve querent's health.

Indeed, as Blumen says, the patient is very afraid of the surgery (and has good reasons for this): Saturn is running away from Mars, by retrogradation ,and Saturn is in its own exile, ruled by Mars - the patient is terrified by the surgery. But there is also Neptune on the ASC - it indicates a blurry understanding of the situation.

We notice that most part of the 10th house of the treatement is in Sagittarius, ruled by Jupiter. This is the second treatement option, much welcomed by the querent, as Jupiter is in Saturn's sign. Jupiter is in its own face, the lesser dignity, very weak, but still something - yet it obviously is a more attractive option that Mars (surgery). This is the non-aggressive path, the minor knee (Capricorn) surgery.
However, Jupiter has no power over Mercury, the disease, actually Mercury is in Jupiter's detriment, so choosing the Jupiter option will lead to aggravating the disease.

Looking at hidden connections, not obvious (by antiscia), the Sun is applying to conjunct Saturn's antiscia (25Vir19) - the physician is going to help the patient. Also, the Sun is applying to trine Mars' antiscia (25Tau07).

The Arabian Part of Surgery (ASC+Saturn-Mars) is located at 25Vir16, cazimi (reinforced), and the Sun applies to it - suggesting the physician choosing the path of surgery.

This horary question and the chart data were published by John Frawley in the 2nd issue of the Astrologer's Apprentice. Frawley also recommends the surgery.

[fensi88]

Mars is peregrine (the surgery is not a good option), but at least it is received by Saturn in its term and face (although also in Saturn's detriment) - the surgery might be welcomed by the querent in some degree, but it'll do a lot of harm as well - we already know that: the physician is planning to broke his hip and then reposition it. That's not pleasant, for sure.


I saw that Ma is received by Sa in its term and face but I was not sure is it good or bad for patient because Ma is in Saturn's detriment. Thanks for your explanation.

[blumen]

Grrrr I got it wrong again!

[Radu]

Most of your interpretation is correct though. The querent was not satisfied with the interpretation and still wanted to avoid this surgery, and intended not to follow astrologer's advice and to skip surgery.
Actually, the paper where this chart was published mentions that two days later the querent comes back and asks another horary question: "If I don't have this operation, will I continue to get better?" (Sep 19, 2000, 08:00 pm GMT, London) which also indicates that the illness will flare up again.

[blumen]

Yes, but what disappoints me is that I noticed Jupiter's condition and the aspects by antiscia. I started wondering what that Jupiter meant, but then quickly dismissed it as unimportant. Same for the antiscia: the chart is clear enough, I thought, so I did not consider the antiscia. I should have

Blumen

[blumen]

Hmmmmm. but do you think that the second chart is radical? I mean, he already had asked the same question two days before, and the second question amounts to a rephrasing. Anyway I'll have a look at the second chart later

Blumen