Whole Sign Houses interpretation

[ume]

What is the difference (in method) between interpreting Whole Sign house charts compared to charts in other house systems?

Do we use the same method? What are the particulars we should take extra care about?

I hope i ask this question right. I started to get seriously interested in the Whole Sign house system, and i would be glad to read any of your experiences and advices. So far my natal chart looks completely different and had major differences if i view it in Whole Signs. I am a bit mixed.

[Hazard]

I've recently discovered it like you did and am trying to understand it. We now know it is the oldest (and only) system used at one time before other systems were discovered. I was an Equal House system advocate (which is the 2nd oldest btw) but for some strange reason I have a feeling that maybe Whole Sign Astrology is the correct system and has been all along.

[asteroid]

i had the same question with you and i got some iteresting replies

check the equal or placidus house system? thread and might find something useful

I am happy that you insist on that topic cause it comfuses me a lot :wink:

[eternalautumn]

Whole sign houses utilize a completely different philosophy than modern astrology. To use them requires a knowledge of traditional astrology. Here is a good resource list:

http://freakyfortuneteller.com/chanah/?p=2068

And here are some links about whole sign houses:

http://accessnewage.com/articles/astro/houses.htm
http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2007/06/10/whole-sign-houses/
http://renaissance-astrology.blogspot.com/2009/03/originally-in-hellenistic-astrology-it.html
http://classicalastrology.tribe.net/thread/4f214879-77d3-41e2-8365-50f5f753761d

Hope this helps. :smile:

[ume]

I've recently discovered it like you did and am trying to understand it. We now know it is the oldest (and only) system used at one time before other systems were discovered. I was an Equal House system advocate (which is the 2nd oldest btw) but for some strange reason I have a feeling that maybe Whole Sign Astrology is the correct system and has been all along.

Hazard, i used Placidus, and actually it worked well for me, but i heard many times people who vote to Whole Sign houses, and i want to try it out myself. I also tried Equal House.
My problem is that i feel my Pluto in the 9th house is very strong. But in Equal and Whole Sign it moves to other houses. I don't know what to do. I am mixed, but won't give up. At least i can say i tried it all.

had the same question with you and i got some iteresting replies

check the equal or placidus house system? thread and might find something useful

I am happy that you insist on that topic cause it comfuses me a lot :wink:

Thank you for your recommendation. I think i read the thread. That was one of the reasons i started this! :wink: As i said above my problem that so far Placidus seems to work the best. If i change house systems my whole chart changes into something completely different. And i can't decide. So i thought maybe i did something wrong with the analysis.



Hope this helps. :smile:

Thank you very much for the links. I will read them with great interest!
I don't really know traditional astrology. I tried to analyse my Whole Sign chart according to modern astrology.

[eternalautumn]

I tried to analyse my Whole Sign chart according to modern astrology.

That really won't work out to well. It's like trying to read ancient Greek in black light with sunglasses on. :smile:

[dr. farr]

As a devotee of whole sign for the past 11 years, may I make the observation that this house format simplifies the chart-and that is the best way to read the chart in whole sign format-make it simple, clean-cut, and take the obvious (for example, if Moon is in 29 degrees Aries in the 2nd house: whole sign says, yeah! the Moon is ONLY to be delineated as in the sign of Aries, and yes! the Moon is ONLY to be delienated as being posited in the 2nd house) Many astrologers feel that whole sign and its ramifications are TOO simple: I won't dispute with them, but for me (maybe because of my simple mind and limited intelligence) I say, thank heavens for the simplicity and clarity and directness of this most ancient of house system formats!

[ume]

As a devotee of whole sign for the past 11 years, may I make the observation that this house format simplifies the chart-and that is the best way to read the chart in whole sign format-make it simple, clean-cut, and take the obvious (for example, if Moon is in 29 degrees Aries in the 2nd house: whole sign says, yeah! the Moon is ONLY to be delineated as in the sign of Aries, and yes! the Moon is ONLY to be delienated as being posited in the 2nd house) Many astrologers feel that whole sign and its ramifications are TOO simple: I won't dispute with them, but for me (maybe because of my simple mind and limited intelligence) I say, thank heavens for the simplicity and clarity and directness of this most ancient of house system formats!

I am not as advanced in this question as you, but i think the couice of Whole Sign house system do not means simplicity at all. At least for me it is as complex as the other systems. (I am speaking about Placidus and Regio, that two wroks for me so far.)

When i try to decide which chart suits me better i have problems. I feel there isn't only one choice. In many cases if i compare Whole Signs AND Placidus together they can give a fuller picture. And i can't choose.
So far my Pluto placement makes me vote to Placidus or Regiomontanus.

I am speaking about changes like this:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=329&pictureid=1620

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=329&pictureid=1621

It is like two different charts in many points. Especially in the 12th house. The whole chart will get a different meaning in whole signs. And so far i don't know what questions should i ask myself to decide which to use.
So many people vote to Whole Sign, and i don't understand why it is so different for me.

I feel my Pluto in 9th as a strong part of my personality, but in WS it will go to the 10th, so get a very different meaning. Also Jupiter jumps two houses. And there is nothing in my 9th house. And more importantly, there is a big change because there are no intercepted signs, and leo is the cusps of 8th house. (So very different from Virgo.)

And (probably because of my Libra moon) i can't decide which system apply to me more. But so far Placidus.

Anyway thank you for the insight.

[astrologer50]

Ume, in Equal house system you Pluto is in 10th house, along with moon and saturn. your jupiter and uranus stay in 11th, mars would be in 2nd house


I feel my Pluto in 9th as a strong part of my personality, but in WS it will go to the 10th, so get a very different meaning. Also Jupiter jumps two houses. And there is nothing in my 9th house. And more importantly, there is a big change because there are no intercepted signs, and leo is the cusps of 8th house. (So very different from Virgo.)
whole sign and Equal house are much simpler as the don't have intercepted signs or houses -- this is true :love:

the ONLY way you are going to settle this is to do the research and interpret what each planet means in each house --

In whole sign you still have pluto and neptune conj house cusp, and not sure if they apply the 5' house cusp rule, but am sure Dr. Farr will chip in here, cos these two would be interpreted as if in next house along going anti clockwise. So then pluto would be 11th whole sign.

Pluto in 9th House - cadent
· World travellers. Quite possibly some unusual events connected to foreigners and foreign countries
· If not physically, then mentally ‑ higher learning. Will not tolerate hypocrisy.
· Compulsive desire to study and to accept mental challenge
· Desire to investigate foreign cultures.
· Religion at an in depth level.
· Indicates special interest in the Law and legalities ‑ higher education, moral philosophy
· Possibly even work at airport or dealing with foreign travel or foreign people.

Pluto in 10th House - angular
· Will need to be very much emotionally involved in the career
· A power complex is all too often indicated Ultimate perfectionist.
· High standards. Expect high standards from others.
· May feel isolated by your responsibilities
· Obsession with public image ‑ status.
· Public image and social standing important.
· Adept in dealing with those in power. Politics possible

[ume]

Ume, in Equal house system you Pluto is in 10th house, along with moon and saturn. your jupiter and uranus stay in 11th, mars would be in 2nd house


Pluto in 9th House - cadent
· World travellers. Quite possibly some unusual events connected to foreigners and foreign countries
· If not physically, then mentally ‑ higher learning. Will not tolerate hypocrisy.
· Compulsive desire to study and to accept mental challenge
· Desire to investigate foreign cultures.
· Religion at an in depth level.
· Indicates special interest in the Law and legalities ‑ higher education, moral philosophy
· Possibly even work at airport or dealing with foreign travel or foreign people.

Pluto in 10th House - angular
· Will need to be very much emotionally involved in the career
· A power complex is all too often indicated Ultimate perfectionist.
· High standards. Expect high standards from others.
· May feel isolated by your responsibilities
· Obsession with public image ‑ status.
· Public image and social standing important.
· Adept in dealing with those in power. Politics possible

Thank your for the insight, astrologer50.

If i read both Pluto house placement descripiton actually both are true. My problem is what means what.

I have a thing for foreign, when i was younger i liked to read travel books. I also often think about travelling, and many times from my teens i not lived at home with my parents. (We also changed country when i was 1 year old.) I enjoy travelling, not only to arrive but the travel itself.

But even in Equal system my 9th house becomes empty.

And the 10th house Pluto seems to be true too.
But i don't know if that i feel that because of my Capricorn ASC+Sun, and my Saturn. (I'd like to point out that my Sun and Saturn are both singleton planets, and Saturn is also the dispositor of my Sun.)
So yes, i like to have status of course, perfectionism is also present from early childhood.

If we look at Saturn in Equal it's in 10th and Jupiter moves down to 11th house.
Again i don't know if the Saturn 10th house placement is strong possibility because my Capricorn Sun? The feeling itself.

Also Jupiter in Sagittarius is lucky. And actually i have been lucky in exams, or i am always saved in the last minute. It's like a guardian angel (12th). So i can't decide.
So far i've been more lucky in exams/career related things (10th house) than with social groups (11th). I am not really a group person. I like to keep it small and simple.
But if i look at the 11th house as the house of far away goals and wishes then it applies well.

In Whole Signs Jupiter is in the 12th. Benefits from hidden sources. Also some kind of service to others. But i am not like that at all. I am self focused. I am interested in others, but still it is a way to understand myself, so the reason is the "me".

I feel i am in trouble. Either i don't know myself well, or don't know the right questions to ask.

Sometimes i feel (Libra moon) i can't decide betwen systems. Each system shows a possibility what can be true. One minute i am with this, the next i change my mind.

Thank you again.

[astrologer50]

Ume, it doesn't matter your 9th house is empty, simply look at the house cusp ruler virgo/mercury and here it's placed in 1st house of 'me,me me'
and having sun, venus and mercury in first backs this up. Very Aries, direct and to the point self---

Jupiter and uranus in Saggi will want to 'travel' being globetrotters, do you have any unsual friends. Do you need lot of freedom and independence with friendships (no clingy, needy people)
Do you have an active social life?

"Your social life means a lot to you, and you take great pleasure in connecting with your friends as well as involvement in teams and groups or with your community. You might benefit through friends who are influential or simply helpful. You are altruistic by nature, and you especially value people and personal freedom. You are very open to new methods and progress, and you display great tolerance and humanitarianism."
http://www.cafeastrology.com/articles/jupiterinhouses.html

The only other way to resolve this issue is with transits and lots more research and self examination.....

[ume]

Ume, it doesn't matter your 9th house is empty, simply look at the house cusp ruler virgo/mercury and here it's placed in 1st house of 'me,me me'
and having sun, venus and mercury in first backs this up. Very Aries, direct and to the point self---

Jupiter and uranus in Saggi will want to 'travel' being globetrotters, do you have any unsual friends. Do you need lot of freedom and independence with friendships (no clingy, needy people)
Do you have an active social life?

"Your social life means a lot to you, and you take great pleasure in connecting with your friends as well as involvement in teams and groups or with your community. You might benefit through friends who are influential or simply helpful. You are altruistic by nature, and you especially value people and personal freedom. You are very open to new methods and progress, and you display great tolerance and humanitarianism."
http://www.cafeastrology.com/articles/jupiterinhouses.html

The only other way to resolve this issue is with transits and lots more research and self examination.....

Ok, i try to do a bit of self-examination. I think from different point of view we can see ourselves differently.

Haha, i am not Aries-like at all. (Also Aries is not really-consciously selfish, they just honestly put themselves first.) I don't feel like this, consider my Venus and Mars in Aquarius. I can focus on others too, combined with the friendly Libra moon.

But if we look for example Whole Shign houses, then Venus, Mercury and Mars will be put into the 2nd house. And the quality will be more "Taurus like".

I am not really a group person. And i can be social, but i prefer to talk with close friends, i am not really open. I don't like loud places with very big crowd. I also don't like team work. If i read the Jupiter in 10-11-12th houses description, only parts of them is true. I also feel close connection betwen these houses, so it makes it more hard to decide.
And i know lot of different people, but who i call as my friends they are all very trustworthy, traditional, good hearted and normal.

About the case of house cusps, i can relate more to Virgo on the 8th's cups, but it can be because of my Saturn is currently transiting my 8th house. So far i haven't experienced the Leo-kind of 8th house.

Thank you for your help again. It makes me think.

[dr. farr]

I shall say this: if upon examination and self-study, ANY house system format seems to really exactly reflect your inner nature and the events and experiences of your life, then, for you, that is the house system you should use. The issue of domification has vexed some of the greatest minds in the history of astrology, and in reality is a very advanced subject. I have given my reasons (personal reasons) for my exclusive use of whole sign; astrologer50 has given excellent reasons and explanations for the (closely related) Equal house format. Among the various quadrant systems, the one which was most highly regarded by several modern astrological geniuses (like Charles Carter) was Campanus (Carter's second choice after his version of Equal house) More esoterically oriented astrological authorities liked Porphyry (the first of the quadrant systems), and certain ancient astrological traditions arising in the Mideast (such as the Ankara-Old Turkish-tradition) exclusively use the Alchabitius format.
All of these formats are availabe for free at Astro.com, and any given chart may be cast and recast in these different formats within less than 2 minutes, so that one may easily undertake comparative experiments among the house systems for each chart, and then come to their own conclusion about which house format works best for them.
(Porphyry, Alchabitius and Campanus are all quadrant house formats)

[ume]

I shall say this: if upon examination and self-study, ANY house system format seems to really exactly reflect your inner nature and the events and experiences of your life, then, for you, that is the house system you should use.

I know the house systems you were speaking about. Why i wanted to see how my chart acts in Whole Sign is because if i compare all house systems, in most case there are relatively very few changes.
My chart changes the most in Whole Sign. That's the reason i payed extra attention to that system.

Anyway, i think i will stay with Placidus, but occasionally i will combine it with other systems, to see whether a planet acts differently or not. I believe when i watch how a planet steps into another house it gives extra information. (I also like the idea of intercepted houses/signs.)
I also think that the final decision for me will not be decided by the planets movement, but by the house cusps.

Thank you.

[dr. farr]

Ume:

The Placidus, Koch, Regiomantus, Porphyry, Alchabitius, systems, are all quadrant house formats, and the planets won't move very much among those formats; neither Equal house nor Whole Sign are quadrant formats, so, compared with the quadrant house systems, planets would move the most in those non-quadrant formats-and would move the most in Whole Sign.

Although he was a devotee of Equal house (actually of a variant of this which is called equi-polant and almost unknown today), the great British astrological genius (I mean that-genius) felt that, relating to attention to the house cusps, that the Campanus house format gave the most reliable (and the clearest) indications relative to aspects to the cusps, and he would use Campanus in making these specialized delineations.
Perhaps, with your interest in the house cusps, you might want to experiment with Campanus.

[ume]

Thank you for sharing this information with me about Campanus cusps.

Who was this astrologer? Tell me his name, please.

And one more question.

astrologer50 wrote this: "In whole sign you still have pluto and neptune conj house cusp, and not sure if they apply the 5' house cusp rule, but am sure Dr. Farr will chip in here, cos these two would be interpreted as if in next house along going anti clockwise. So then pluto would be 11th whole sign."

So in Whole Sign my Pluto counts as 11th house planet? Please answer this, because i like to understand more the nature of my Saturn (Scorpio) - Pluto (Libra) conjunction. And i hope to gain extra information from Whole Sign.

(Also in Whole Sign, if Neptune will become a first house planet then it is still behind the Ascendant. How should i interpret that?)

[Niplan]

Since whole sign houses (one house one sign) are so easy to use, i use it as an overlay on any chart i use.

when i look at the chart in the regimontious house system, and then at the same time in my mind impose the chart as whole signs, *since its just 1 house 1 sign* and that helps alot. it gives you irreguardless of what house system you use, another filter you can easly apply.

but there is no diffrence in the meanings of the difrent house systems, other then how they divide the sky. Some planets may change houses, but they won't change signs.

so with that in mind, if you have a planet in house 7 in pladicius, then you over lay it with a whole house method, and its in the 8th house, then you could see that the person's relationship to the outside world would also manifest through death, or occult tendencies.

also, whole sign is easier to cast a chart for, find the ascendent, thats 0*degree house 1. each sign is 30 degrees, and a new house. simple.

[dr. farr]

Ume:
I apologize for neglecting to post the great 20th century astrologer's name: it is Charles Carter, and I share the opinion of some experts (such as David Rouell at Astro-America) that Carter was the most brilliant English-language astrologer to have lived during the 20th century (although I am an eclectic in these matters, and take elements from many different astrological traditions, I sincerely recommend a study of Carter's books to all interested in Western astrology*)

Niplan's method of using whole sign as a filtering overlay is a very useful addition to those who prefer a basic quadrant format for their charts.

If Neptune is in the same sign as the ascendant degree, then Neptune is to be delineated as in your 1st house by whole sign; if Pluto is in Libra and Saturn is in Scorpio, then by whole sign they cannot be in the same house; however, if they are in conjunction it is obviously occuring at the end of Libra and the beginning of Scorpio, so this conjunction, although from 2 different houses, might be acting as a bridge connecting those 2 (whole sign) houses, and dispersing a Pluto/Saturn conjunction influence throughout BOTH of those houses.

(* Important books by Carter include: Principles of Astrology; The Zodiac and the Soul; The Aspects; Encyclopedia of Psychological Astrology; Symbolic Directions in Modern Astrology; Essays on the Foundations of Astrology)

[Horus]

Hazard, i used Placidus, and actually it worked well for me, but i heard many times people who vote to Whole Sign houses, and i want to try it out myself. I also tried Equal House.
My problem is that i feel my Pluto in the 9th house is very strong. But in Equal and Whole Sign it moves to other houses.

Interesting. I had this same dilemma last year because I have Pluto in the 9th as well, but its part of a small stellium there and while Pluto could work in my 10th too (as per Koch, Equal, etc.), the other planets like Mars do not, so I'm sure that Placidus is the correct fit for me. Not into law or conventional religion, but I'm destined to travel to certain, important places... once time/money is more abundant. In the meantime I study these places and pore over maps.

[astrologer50]

[QUOTE=dr. farr;212423]Ume:

If Neptune is in the same sign as the ascendant degree, then Neptune is to be delineated as in your 1st house by whole sign; if Pluto is in Libra and Saturn is in Scorpio, then by whole sign they cannot be in the same house; however, if they are in conjunction it is obviously occuring at the end of Libra and the beginning of Scorpio, so this conjunction, although from 2 different houses, might be acting as a bridge connecting those 2 (whole sign) houses, and dispersing a Pluto/Saturn conjunction influence throughout BOTH of those houses.
QUOTE]

does this mean that whole house do not use the 5' house cusp idea? cos in Equal that Pluto in libra would be conj the house cusp and considered more effective in the next house along? bit like standing in a doorway with your back to one house and foot lifted going into the next-
Equal house does and there seems plenty of evidence to support this approach. I can cite some sources if you like?

[dr. farr]

The issue of "borders" with whole signs is an open one: if a planet is within 5 degrees of the 0:00 border of the next sign (house), it could be interpreted as having its influence over into that next sign (house); this was the opinion of some of the hellenistic authorities of the past; others (and this includes my opinion) believe that planetary influence does not extend over into another sign (so, in whole sign, it could not extend into the next house, since the next house is the next sign) Those who hold this opinion (and by the way, I believe Robert Hand follows the first outlook I have mentioned above, allowing planetary influence to extend over into the next sign and house) believe that what appears to extend over from one sign into the other, is due to decanate, duodenary or monomoirion connections of the planet involved, or to a parallel of declination between the planet and the sensitive point of the next sign, and is not due to an extension of the planet's direct influence into the next sign.

So we find 2 very different opinions (and experiences) involving the sign-border question in whole sign, just as we find different opinions regarding this matter in other domification formats.

[Niplan]

I believe that planets do exert an effect into the next sign and house, I have, 4 planets on cusps nataly. I use the 5 degree cusp rule.

[ume]

Since whole sign houses (one house one sign) are so easy to use, i use it as an overlay on any chart i use.

when i look at the chart in the regimontious house system, and then at the same time in my mind impose the chart as whole signs, *since its just 1 house 1 sign* and that helps alot. it gives you irreguardless of what house system you use, another filter you can easly apply.


Hi Niplan! Thank you for sharing your experience. I will use this method from now on. I still prefer quadrant formats, but already see how whole sign gives more information.

Ume:
I apologize for neglecting to post the great 20th century astrologer's name: it is Charles Carter, and I share the opinion of some experts (such as David Rouell at Astro-America) that Carter was the most brilliant English-language astrologer to have lived during the 20th century

(* Important books by Carter include: Principles of Astrology; The Zodiac and the Soul; The Aspects; Encyclopedia of Psychological Astrology; Symbolic Directions in Modern Astrology; Essays on the Foundations of Astrology)

dr. farr, thank you for telling the name, since i am very ignorant about astrologers and eager to learn. Also thank you for the recommendations, and your help.

Interesting. I had this same dilemma last year because I have Pluto in the 9th as well, but its part of a small stellium there and while Pluto could work in my 10th too (as per Koch, Equal, etc.), the other planets like Mars do not, so I'm sure that Placidus is the correct fit for me. Not into law or conventional religion, but I'm destined to travel to certain, important places... once time/money is more abundant. In the meantime I study these places and pore over maps.

Haha. So we share 9th house Pluto. Nice to meet you. I feel it strongly. I also study maps, read travel books, basically do anything what is foreign. What is your stellium? I don't have a stellium in the 9th (i have small one in the 1st Vensu-Juno-Mercury), but in Placidus system i have Moon, Pluto and Saturn in the 9th. And Jupiter in Sagittarius is also strong (my final dispositor).

I'd say try whol sign with Placidus together. I find the extra information very interesting.

[Horus]

Haha. So we share 9th house Pluto. Nice to meet you. I feel it strongly. I also study maps, read travel books, basically do anything what is foreign. What is your stellium? I don't have a stellium in the 9th (i have small one in the 1st Vensu-Juno-Mercury), but in Placidus system i have Moon, Pluto and Saturn in the 9th.

Well that counts as a stellium, and a powerful one w/ the Moon in there! In Placidus, I have Mars, Uranus, and Pluto in the 9th = a transformative quest or a "long journey over water" as the 9th house was once known as.

And Jupiter in Sagittarius is also strong (my final dispositor).

I'm a Sagg. Moon and Asc. so wanderlust is strong in me too!