Placidus house system

[Michael]

Does it suck?. Robert Hand claims it's not very good.

[eternalautumn]

It's only so popular because in the old days it was the only system that had charts printed for use by astrologers (no computers). But I'm not making a judgment call here, just giving some facts.

[astrologer50]

Does it suck?. Robert Hand claims it's not very good.
It does for me :biggrin: I use Equal as everyone knows on here cos it makes more sense and just fits superbly.... :love:

No intercepted signs or houses either --

http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm (http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm)
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z0nnE2IP7A4C&pg=PA167&dq=astrology+equal+house&as_brr=3&ei=i0iJS-PlGo3mygS89Nn8DQ&cd=2#v=onepage&q=astrology%20equal%20house&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z0nnE2IP7A4C&pg=PA167&dq=astrology+equal+house&as_brr=3&ei=i0iJS-PlGo3mygS89Nn8DQ&cd=2#v=onepage&q=astrology%20equal%20house&f=false)

EQUAL HOUSES
“Another of the three most popular house systems is Equal houses which is just what its name implies. All the houses have the same degree on each cusp, and there are no interceptions. Equal house systems are especially useful for people born in the northernmost and southernmost latitudes, and this system is the most popular one in use outside of the United States.”
http://www.esotericapublications.com/art-eso-011.htm (http://www.esotericapublications.com/art-eso-011.htm)

“Equal house system is the only system that is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit. The zodiac is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit around the Sun which comprises of a 360 degree circle that surrounds the Earth. The mid-heaven is often more, or less than ninety degrees (three signs) from the ascendant, therefore it is not often placed on the tenth house cusp, but marked where it appears in the mid-heaven according to the latitude and longitude of birth. The mid-heaven is taken as an important point; it is the point of self-mastery.”
http://marianneohagan.com/house.htm (http://marianneohagan.com/house.htm)


“The simplest approaches, the equal-house and whole-sign methods, merely require knowledge of the ascendant or ascending sign, and an equal division throughout the rest of the zodiac eliminates the need for any complicated calculations
Yet recent research into classical astrology has created a renewed interest in these simple techniques from a more scholarly perspective. The point of strength is that, regardless of the originating theory behind house division, in practice at least, classical astrologers tended to tie the houses to the signs, apparently concurring with Pelletier, who wrote in defence of the equal house method”
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html)

[wintersprite1]

Does it suck?. Robert Hand claims it's not very good.

I don't know about his claim, but I do know he uses Koch. He is big on the use of the MC to figure out the chart. The same with his Composites. He starts off with the MC and calculates the Ascendant, which is different than most Astrologers do. Most will just average the Ascendant and go from there.



TK

[Akyana]

I also use Koch.

Placidus doesnt work for me, as some planets are in houses that dont co-relate with what I experience.

[dr. farr]

For me (as is well known on AW), Whole Sign "rules" :love:...

(Hand's little book on the subject introduced me to the Whole Sign format; I had used Placidus for several decades before learning about Whole Sign, which I have used as my exclusive format for the past decade)

[Kannon]

Does it suck?. Robert Hand claims it's not very good.

Placidus gives the most information of any house system and I use it exclusively. I have great respect for Robert Hand, and use Planets in Transit as one of my main reference books, but he's off on this one.

There was a comparative test done of Koch vs. Placidus by John Willner in The Rising Sign Problem that demonstrated the consistency of validated horoscopes. Placidus house interceptions of signs proved 100% consistent with the life thrust or vocation of the native, but Koch did not. Sometimes the two systems agreed, but when they disagreed, Placidus house interceptions matched the life thrust of the native.

[AquariusT]

My teacher was taught by Robert Hand mnay many years ago. She uses Koch and that is what I use. I don't see much difference in them. Sometime and it moves a planet here and there. I just started using astro.com and they use Placidus as a rule.

[lillyjgc]

Placidus has worked fine for me for years for Natal/progressed etc but Regiomontanus works best for Horary, I have found, and also Medical and Event charts.
Lilly

[astrologer50]

I also use Koch.

Placidus doesnt work for me, as some planets are in houses that dont co-relate with what I experience.

EXACTLY, in placidus (rather than Equal) my planets move a whole TWO houses from 4th to 2nd and simply do not function in my life either :rightful:

[Frisiangal]

Placidus has proved itself time and time again for me personally and in working with it,

As a recent perfect example, I have natal Neptune retrograde on 1.43 Libra, meaning it is just tucked inside the 2nd house that begins on Placidus 1+Libra. My Ascendant is on 10 Virgo. Using Equal House, my 2nd house would begin from 10 Libra.

My husband and I are now senior citizens. I warned him that I feared for a loss of income (Taurus Sun :biggrin:) when tr. Saturn conjoined my Neptune on 16 November 2009. I already knew I would lose a part of the state pension because I hadn't resided in my husband's country for the required number of years. The year before (Nov. 2008) I had contacted the U.K. Pension service to ask if I was able to claim a pension from the years I had worked in England. Was asked to fill in required form and wait it out! Nothing happened; I assumed it an invalid request.

On Dec. 3rd 2009, I received a letter from U.K. dated 24th November (one week after exact tr. Saturn conjunct my Neptune) informing me that my request had been acknowledged and I was entitled to a pension. However, the state pension for women begins from the 60th birthday in U.K. I didn't know that! As all requests are acknowledged and go back only one year from date of receipt of mail (my original letter dated 18 November 2008), I was entitled to a pension from 18 Nov. 2007, meaning I lost 3 years worth of state pension accumatively!!. If that's not a Saturn effect on a 2nd house Neptune, I don't know what is:biggrin:.

I could have disagreed and put in a further claim for the outstanding amount but I was actually delighted that I got anything at all. 2 years back pension paid out in one go, plus a small sum per month. As the personal windfall was so unexpected, I spent it!!! I booked 1st grade tickets (central stage) and took my five (of 6) granddaughters and 2 daughters to see the musical production of 'Mary Poppins'. How does that fit a Neptune in Libra effect??

There's a 2nd pass of tr. Saturn to my Neptune later this year....with a general election here in June, during the final Saturn-Uranus opposition across Virgo-Pisces! It seems that state/company pensions are amongst that to undergo changes under a new government, meaning less in the personal pocket. Another effect of a 2nd and not 1st house Neptune???

[byjove]

Does it suck?. Robert Hand claims it's not very good.

Well, unfortunately, there are very knowledgeable and very talented astrologers who use each house system who stand by that system. If Placidus only attracted those inexperienced, then I'd have moved on a long time ago.

I would however consider different ones to give yourself a fair chance. Plus, as many people here say, you may find one that seems to make sense, much more than others. I dance along with Placidus, Equal and Whole sign. It's a good spread, and if a day comes when one takes over, then great. But that day hasn't arrived...:whistling:

[astrologer50]

Fris, can you post your chart with prog and transits pls?

As a recent perfect example, I have natal Neptune retrograde on 1.43 Libra, meaning it is just tucked inside the 2nd house that begins on Placidus 1+Libra. My Ascendant is on 10 Virgo. Using Equal House, my 2nd house would begin from 10 Libra. I'm not good with data I need charts --

Also it worth bearing in mind the 5' conj house cusp --
Planets conjunct a house cusp
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=202304&postcount=7 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=202304&postcount=7)
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=205033#post205033 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=205033#post205033)
Planets conj House cusp
“Ascendant at 15’ Libra and Jupiter 13’ Libra. That would place Jupiter in the 12th house, right? But many thoughtful astrologers would read this as Jupiter being conjunction with Ascendant, and end up reading it as bringing its action to bear in the first house, rather than in the 12th.
This same idea would apply for each and every house cusp. If the planet is IN THE SAME SIGN as the sign on the next house cusp, and close enough to be CONJUNCT WITH that next house cusp, the action of the planet will be directed into oncoming house”
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/inhouses.html (http://www.astrology-numerology.com/inhouses.html)

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14887 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14887)

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=125412&postcount=4 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=125412&postcount=4)

Ptolemy says the influence of the house begins to be felt 5° before the actual cusp.
http://www.astrologycom.com/houses.html (http://www.astrologycom.com/houses.html)

“Astrologers have seen a body influencing the house it is about to enter, time and time again. All theorizing aside, the planet casting its shadow ahead works. I can speak from personal experience, as well as reading ancient texts. If you discover this as true, then the next question may be, "Just how close must a body be to a cusp before it begins to be felt in the neighboring house?"
I've seen some authors say 3 degrees. I've seen some that give 5 degrees. I have seen some that even give 8 degrees. And there may be other variations.” http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/90c9f417-5086-4ff0-b31f-c904fe99baca (http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/90c9f417-5086-4ff0-b31f-c904fe99baca)

[Frisiangal]

[QUOTE=astrologer50;209976]
Fris, can you post your chart with prog and transits pls?

I'm not good with data I need charts --


Ah; I'm a very private person and choose not to do that. It's never about me but about aspects.:biggrin:



Also it worth bearing in mind the 5' conj house cusp --
Planets conjunct a house cusp.....................

Planets conj House cusp
“Ascendant at 15’ Libra and Jupiter 13’ Libra. That would place Jupiter in the 12th house, right? But many thoughtful astrologers would read this as Jupiter being conjunction with Ascendant, and end up reading it as bringing its action to bear in the first house, rather than in the 12th.
This same idea would apply for each and every house cusp. If the planet is IN THE SAME SIGN as the sign on the next house cusp, and close enough to be CONJUNCT WITH that next house cusp, the action of the planet will be directed into oncoming house”


I have long submitted to a personal crusade regarding the effect of planets conjunct the following house cusp with the idea , 'If the cosmos had wanted it in the following house, it would have made sure it was in it!!!' A person can experience the effect, through progression, into the following house, yet i.m.h.o. the 'intent' of the planet refers to its natal house.

This is especially so with the retrograde position conjunct the cusp of the following house. If someone is born with a retrograde planet that spends even the first forming years....or maybe 40 years in the house of its birth position... how can it possibly be said to be effective in the following house???:confused::rolleyes:
It doesn't make sense.

But that's just me.:biggrin:

[astrologer50]

Well obviously the caveat should have been -- other than retrograde planets that are going backwards would be interpreted differently. I quite agree.

[dr. farr]

In the above referenced Neptune Rx @ 1:43 Libra, posited in the 2nd house via the Placidus format, it is also posited in the 2nd house by Whole Sign format.

[Frisiangal]

I've come to believe that the preference and use of a particular house system is, somehow, 'imbedded' within the individual through their outlook and views. Similar to art students in a ring around a subject. It's the same person but each student sees it from a different perspective and draws what for them is visually seen to be true. Perhaps the same can be said for the zodiac and planetary/house positions? Sidereal shows an entirely different chart map to tropical. A preferential house system is going to alter the perspectives available as well.

I'm not at all good at the difference in house system as a result of physical time, space, helio-or geocentric calculation, etc., but maybe there is a connection between why tropical Placidus works for me and my ideas regarding how I perceive life's meaning?

Could it be explained that way?

[dr. farr]

I've come to believe that the preference and use of a particular house system is, somehow, 'imbedded' within the individual through their outlook and views. Similar to art students in a ring around a subject. It's the same person but each student sees it from a different perspective and draws what for them is visually seen to be true. Perhaps the same can be said for the zodiac and planetary/house positions? Sidereal shows an entirely different chart map to tropical. A preferential house system is going to alter the perspectives available as well.

I'm not at all good at the difference in house system as a result of physical time, space, helio-or geocentric calculation, etc., but maybe there is a connection between why tropical Placidus works for me and my ideas regarding how I perceive life's meaning?

Could it be explained that way?


I am very close to the above view myself when it comes to thinking about the deeper, philsophical and metaphysical implications of our astrological art.

[Kannon]

I want to point out that phenomena that is numbered cannot be either one or another in some uncertain quantity. When we are dealing with quantity, as in houses, a 1 is always a 1. The conversion of qualitative data, as in from a person's self-expression and identity, etc, to a quantitative one can be a challenge, but in any given person's birth horoscope there is only one correct set of quantitative data. There is no room for qualitative re-superimposing preferences upon a quantitative value.

We must determine if a particular planet is truly 1st house or 2nd or 12th, for example. My observation is that even well-experienced professional astrologers are working with too many assumptions that are rooted in the human linear mind attempting to create clarity by simplifying things too quickly or too much. We must raise our minds to the complexity and level of the universe, rather than simplifying it to soothe the indefinite perception within our own minds.

Whole sign or equal house systems are the result of not knowing where the correct Asc of a given birth chart should be set, and knowing how to consistently get that set correctly. Astrology is a language, so it must be consistent within itself. This means tying it to "fact" sets, like very specific birth times, still does not address whether the message given by that horoscope matches with the life of the person. Belief in astrology notwithstanding. I understand this would create more work on each horoscope than 90% of practicing astrologers are willing to do. I am, however, and wouldn't have it any other way.

[astrologer50]

I want to point out that phenomena that is numbered cannot be either one or another in some uncertain quantity. When we are dealing with quantity, as in houses, a 1 is always a 1. The conversion of qualitative data, as in from a person's self-expression and identity, etc, to a quantitative one can be a challenge, but in any given person's birth horoscope there is only one correct set of quantitative data. There is no room for qualitative re-superimposing preferences upon a quantitative value. What does this mean in plain english pls?

We must determine if a particular planet is truly 1st house or 2nd or 12th, for example. My observation is that even well-experienced professional astrologers are working with too many assumptions that are rooted in the human linear mind attempting to create clarity by simplifying things too quickly or too much. We must raise our minds to the complexity and level of the universe, rather than simplifying it to soothe the indefinite perception within our own minds. Sounds like you are over complicating things just for the sake of it?? and trying to take away from the masses and keep astrology elitist --

Whole sign or equal house systems are the result of not knowing where the correct Asc of a given birth chart should be set, and knowing how to consistently get that set correctly. Astrology is a language, so it must be consistent within itself. This means tying it to "fact" sets, like very specific birth times, still does not address whether the message given by that horoscope matches with the life of the person. Belief in astrology notwithstanding. I understand this would create more work on each horoscope than 90% of practicing astrologers are willing to do. I am, however, and wouldn't have it any other way.

Well sorry I have to disagree here,"not knowing where the correct Asc of a given birth chart should be set" whole and Equal house systems are the most oldest, valuable and widely used. Do you have some research, data or something concrete here or is this just simply your own observations?

[ume]

I don't think any of the house systems "suck".

(One can use different house systems for different things.)

The only way to decide is personal experience. Do you own chart and others (people who you know well) charts in different systems and compare the result.
You can ask others but the best is if you try it out for yourself.

After comparing my own chart in 4 different house system (placidus, whole signs, equal and regio) i still have doubts, but i am alot closer to choose. Maybe i will post it as a question. :whistling:

[Ataraxy]

Placidus, Regio, Campanus, Koch don't work for higher latitudes. I think it should be enough to make astrologers give up these systems. If they seem good it's not because they are good by themselves but because those who use them don't live in Murmansk or in Spitzberg. If the birth data of the next Russian president are : Murmansk June 3rd 2010 at 0:45am, I'm afraid you'd have to reconsider your personnal feeling for Placidus if you want to set his/her chart.
(sorry for my english, if I make some faults)

[eternalautumn]

Whole sign or equal house systems are the result of not knowing where the correct Asc of a given birth chart should be set

Not true. Hellenistic astrologers could pinpoint the Ascendant degree to within a couple of minutes. The philosophy they used when dealing with a chart called for each house to be a whole sign, not having anything to do with the Asccendant, at least not how you stated.

I feel that whole sign is a very natural, and it makes a lot of sense, but you can't just look at it and instantly know it. I read three or four essays and many websites on whole sign houses before I started using them.

In addition, we have proof that Hellenistic astrologers used a quadrant based system along with whole sign houses. They used the quadrant system to determine planetary strength (angular, fixed, cadent), and whole signs for house topics. I find that this method works very well...

[dr. farr]

Ancient Lunar astrology did not use any house system, rather they applied the 28 mansions (mnazils) or palaces (hsiu) or "nakshatras" ,of the Moon, and with very great effect (see, for example, Volguine, "Lunar Astrology")
The very effective astrological system of Cosmobiologie uses NO houses whatsoever, and in the Uranian system, while houses are used, they are not really accorded much importance.
By his own admission Robert Hand had abandoned house consideration, prior to the rediscovery of the ancient whole sign format.

My point in the above, is that house-system formats can be disposed of (like in Lunar astrology and Cosmobiologie), and effective astrological work still be done. And this is why I believe whether or not a practitioner uses them at all, and which one or ones the practitioner does decide to use, is a matter of experience and personal insight.
What about for those just starting out, who don't have experience in the matter?
The experienced astrologer giving advice to beginners regarding house system format
will suggest what house format has proven of value to them: my advice to beginners would be the whole sign house method, because of my personal experience with that house format system.