Entrance of the Soul seen Astrologically

[Cosmiccradle]

At what moment after conception if any would you say that the soul entered the body, and how would you define that astrologically in the chart?

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Traditionally, the answer is birth. That's when the soul shoots down the planetary spheres and enters the body, thus the soul is imprinted with the energies of the planets, making a person's personality and future.

[Cosmiccradle]

Depending on the religion, astrology or astrologer used, then entrance of the soul into the body varies. Not wishing to taint or influence the thread I will withhold my opinion until others have had their say. It would be interesting to see the different periods, why and how they find their place in the chart.

It seems to me other astrologers here must have given this moment thought when learning about astrology.

[dr. farr]

There is a certain esoteric tradition which talks about three "sealings" of the incarnating human spark into the body of matter: according to this tradition:
+the first sealing occurs at the exact conjunction of Sun + Moon, following conception; this sealing is of the bloodline, genetic "animal" elements forming the framework of the incarnating human spark
+the second sealing occurs at the Sun+Moon conjunction three "moons" later; this sealing is of the "higher" elements of the human spark into the prepared physical (actually physico-etheric) framework established under the first sealing;
+the third and final sealing occurs at the Sun+Moon conjunction three "moons" after the second sealing (ie, this would generally be at around 6 to 7 months after conception); this final sealing is of the "mundane" or ordinary consciousness-qualities of the incarnating individual, "set" between the original physical frame and the later higher elements (higher consciousness qualities)

According to this tradition, at the time of birth (actually at the moment the individual first breathes), the susceptability to cosmic influences set up in the "field" of the individual (by the prior 3 "sealings") determines which of the cosmic influences operative at the first-breath (birth time) will imprint, and how deeply they will imprint, and which cosmic influences will be resisted, and thus have a minimal imprinting impact.

...an interesting concept...

[Cosmiccradle]

There is a certain esoteric tradition which talks about three "sealings" of the incarnating human spark into the body of matter: according to this tradition:
+the first sealing occurs at the exact conjunction of Sun + Moon, following conception; this sealing is of the bloodline, genetic "animal" elements forming the framework of the incarnating human spark
+the second sealing occurs at the Sun+Moon conjunction three "moons" later; this sealing is of the "higher" elements of the human spark into the prepared physical (actually physico-etheric) framework established under the first sealing;
+the third and final sealing occurs at the Sun+Moon conjunction three "moons" after the second sealing (ie, this would generally be at around 6 to 7 months after conception); this final sealing is of the "mundane" or ordinary consciousness-qualities of the incarnating individual, "set" between the original physical frame and the later higher elements (higher consciousness qualities)

According to this tradition, at the time of birth (actually at the moment the individual first breathes), the susceptability to cosmic influences set up in the "field" of the individual (by the prior 3 "sealings") determines which of the cosmic influences operative at the first-breath (birth time) will imprint, and how deeply they will imprint, and which cosmic influences will be resisted, and thus have a minimal imprinting impact.

...an interesting concept...
And a very interesting post, thankyou. I hadn't heard of that yet.

[dr. farr]

Some additional considerations connected with the esoteric tradition mentioned above:

+relating to celestial pre-natal influences upon the subtle energy matrix of embryonic cells:
-the 1st sealing imprints the endodermic layer (from which stomach and lungs develop)
-the 2nd sealing imprints the mesodermic layer (from which, for example, the heart develops)
-the 3rd sealing imprints the ectodermic layer (from which, for example, nerve and brain cells develop)

+connecting with the modalities (modulations or "circulation") of subtle elemental qualities:
-the 1st sealing = the fixed modality
-the 2nd sealing = the cardinal modality
-the 3rd sealing = the mutable modality

+relating to the "fixing" or "setting" of subtle elemental qualities:
-the 1st sealing "sets" the Earth element qualities
-the 2nd sealing "sets" the Fire element qualities
-the 3rd sealing "sets" the Water element qualities
-the birth (first breathing) time "sets" the Air element qualities

[07.Re]

-the 3rd sealing "sets" the Water element qualities
-the birth (first breathing) time "sets" the Air element qualities

I was born three months premature (so perhaps before the third sealing) and have absolutely no water in my chart and 7 air elements...:pinched:

[Cosmiccradle]

I was born three months premature (so perhaps before the third sealing) and have absolutely no water in my chart and 7 air elements...:pinched:

May I have your particulars via a p.m. to use it for a Epoch test? It would be greatly appreciated, and all privacy rules will be adhered to.

[Cosmiccradle]

Some additional considerations connected with the esoteric tradition mentioned above:

+relating to celestial pre-natal influences upon the subtle energy matrix of embryonic cells:
-the 1st sealing imprints the endodermic layer (from which stomach and lungs develop)
-the 2nd sealing imprints the mesodermic layer (from which, for example, the heart develops)
-the 3rd sealing imprints the ectodermic layer (from which, for example, nerve and brain cells develop)

+connecting with the modalities (modulations or "circulation") of subtle elemental qualities:
-the 1st sealing = the fixed modality
-the 2nd sealing = the cardinal modality
-the 3rd sealing = the mutable modality

+relating to the "fixing" or "setting" of subtle elemental qualities:
-the 1st sealing "sets" the Earth element qualities
-the 2nd sealing "sets" the Fire element qualities
-the 3rd sealing "sets" the Water element qualities
-the birth (first breathing) time "sets" the Air element qualities

I consider you input and thought of great value. Thankyou.

[Cosmiccradle]

An interesting part of it all is of course, things like there are those that believe we choose our parents, there are those that believe that we move around undecided, there are those that beleive we are given certain parents because we need to learn something. Abortion, and miscarriages also play a roll in some of those believes.

[Cosmiccradle]

Some additional considerations connected with the esoteric tradition mentioned above:

+relating to celestial pre-natal influences upon the subtle energy matrix of embryonic cells:
-the 1st sealing imprints the endodermic layer (from which stomach and lungs develop)
-the 2nd sealing imprints the mesodermic layer (from which, for example, the heart develops)
-the 3rd sealing imprints the ectodermic layer (from which, for example, nerve and brain cells develop)

+connecting with the modalities (modulations or "circulation") of subtle elemental qualities:
-the 1st sealing = the fixed modality
-the 2nd sealing = the cardinal modality
-the 3rd sealing = the mutable modality

+relating to the "fixing" or "setting" of subtle elemental qualities:
-the 1st sealing "sets" the Earth element qualities
-the 2nd sealing "sets" the Fire element qualities
-the 3rd sealing "sets" the Water element qualities
-the birth (first breathing) time "sets" the Air element qualities

An educated guess, we're looking at ten lunar months here?

[JerryRR]

All souls come into incarnation in the sign Cancer,which has been recognised down the ages as 'the doorway into life of those who must know death'

The moment that a man becomes aware of his own soul and is endeavouring to control his own 'path in life,' the influence of the planets, per se,definitely weakens and steadily becomes less and less.

Extracts from 'Esoteric Astrology.' by Alice A Bailey (Lucis).

Jerry :)

[Cosmiccradle]

All souls come into incarnation in the sign Cancer,which has been recognised down the ages as 'the doorway into life of those who must know death'

The moment that a man becomes aware of his own soul and is endeavouring to control his own 'path in life,' the influence of the planets, per se,definitely weakens and steadily becomes less and less.

Extracts from 'Esoteric Astrology.' by Alice A Bailey (Lucis).

Jerry :)
Hello Jerry, would you run that by me in relation to the Epoch chart.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

What Jerry's source is touching on are the Gates of Men and the Gates of the Gods. They're linked with a hellenistic tradition where the souls of children enter the world through the Gate of Men in Cancer and the souls of the dead leave the world through the Gate of the Gods in Capricorn.

[Cosmiccradle]

What Jerry's source is touching on are the Gates of Men and the Gates of the Gods. They're linked with a hellenistic tradition where the souls of children enter the world through the Gate of Men in Cancer and the souls of the dead leave the world through the Gate of the Gods in Capricorn.
Sounds like mythology.

[JerryRR]

Hi CC,

I was interested how you would reply to the extracts by A.Bailey.
'Sounds like mythology '
Thank you for you reply.

When you mention epoch chart,do you mean 'Pre-Natal Epoch' also called the 'Trutine of Hermes'

Jerry :)

[eternalautumn]

What Jerry's source is touching on are the Gates of Men and the Gates of the Gods. They're linked with a hellenistic tradition where the souls of children enter the world through the Gate of Men in Cancer and the souls of the dead leave the world through the Gate of the Gods in Capricorn.

Does this have anything to do with Cancer rising in the Thema Mundi?

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Does this have anything to do with Cancer rising in the Thema Mundi?

Yes. The idea of the souls entering through the Gates of Man in the Presapae cluster of Cancer is why they chose that sign to rise in the Thema Mundi.

Sounds like mythology.

Not mythology. Hellenistic philosophy, though it does tie into Hermetic philosophy with the Moon (the ruler of Cancer) being the last sphere the incoming souls pass through before being born and Saturn (the ruler of Capricorn) as the last sphere souls pass on their journey back to heaven after death. You also have to realize that Cancer and Capricorn are the Solstice signs, which have their own special meanings in solar mythology.

[dr. farr]

In the Vedic tradition, the astrological year begins with the December solstice and ends with the June solstice (tropically, Capricorn and Cancer); Charles Carter came to the conclusion-near the end of his long astrological career-that the "beginnings" (for the astrological indications for the coming year) are shown by the Capricorn solstice (rather than the Aries equinox); the Chinese begin the day in the 11pm-1am time meridian (under their animal zodiac the sign of the sheep-aka as the sign of the goat), and, in certain allocations of the animal zodiac to our zodiac, this time period corresponds with Capricorn. If we consider some possible extrapolations from the esoteric "sealing" tradition I mentioned above**, the 1st sealing-of earth-could be considered the Capricorn solstice, the 2nd sealing (of fire) as the Aries equinox, the 3rd sealing (of water) as the Cancer solstice, and the birthtime /first breath (fixing of air) as the Libra equinox.

In an alchemical modification of the "souls through the Moon and Cancer" model, the actual beginning of the souls journey is from Saturn (ruler of Capricorn), the souls then being "pulled in" by the attracting power of the Sun (pulled through the spheres from Saturn to Jupiter to Mars to Venus to Mercury), but-unless completely pure-the souls cannot be absorbed by the Sun and so "bounce off" the Sun and "fall down" from the Fire of the Sun into the cooling "Water" of the Moon (ruler of Cancer), from which the heavy dross of the souls "impurities" ultimately drag them down to-earth.
As I have mentioned on another thread, the alchemists (and their literature) contain as much if not more regarding astrology than the frank astrological writings of the past-IF one has the eye to see, and the knowledge to understand.


**For those interested, I have posted some related information regarding this esoteric tradition's techniques for erecting a "blood-line karma" chart, under the thread entitled "Family and Group Karma" in the Karmic Astrology section of the "OTHER" Forum.

[Cosmiccradle]

Hi CC,

I was interested how you would reply to the extracts by A.Bailey.
'Sounds like mythology '
Thank you for you reply.

When you mention epoch chart,do you mean 'Pre-Natal Epoch' also called the 'Trutine of Hermes'

Jerry :)
Yes to the Epoch.

To the rest of your post the following:

I have a reasonable collection of books. There was a time when I collected all material that seemed to be of value that could support me in anyway when it came to astrology or astronomy. However alot of the books that I bought were used as reference material. PVT fell over the fact, wondering how in the world I could have Rhudyars' book and not know about Sabian astrology. Just as I have Baileys' work and not know hers. However, Rhudyars' book for example is great to use in corrections to see what the cusp of the Asc. gives when using this work. One doens't need to deepen their insight to sabian astrology to use the work. Alot of what I've read, I've lost in thought because we take from it what we find important and move on. Intertwine it with what we do use. I was also not aware that Esoterische Astrologie fell under the heading of Hellenistic Astology. People like Bialey, Heindel, are rarely used by me and only when occasion asks for it when it has to do with the soul or planes that are not covered in parts of astrology. Therefor I have their works, but as reference and not as foundation.

Just as I have a bookcase of great British and American authors, does not mean I've read them all. Although I could give you quite a list, and I'm very partial to the romantic poets.

[Cosmiccradle]

Yes. The idea of the souls entering through the Gates of Man in the Presapae cluster of Cancer is why they chose that sign to rise in the Thema Mundi.



Not mythology. Hellenistic philosophy, though it does tie into Hermetic philosophy with the Moon (the ruler of Cancer) being the last sphere the incoming souls pass through before being born and Saturn (the ruler of Capricorn) as the last sphere souls pass on their journey back to heaven after death. You also have to realize that Cancer and Capricorn are the Solstice signs, which have their own special meanings in solar mythology.

Mythology or philosophy, I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole.

[Kannon]

At what moment after conception if any would you say that the soul entered the body, and how would you define that astrologically in the chart?

The kind of question I like since it gives me an opening to break up the kinds of boxes that start boxing in thinking even within astrology. I've read The Arkana Dictionary of Astrologery by Fred Gettings virtually cover-to-cover. I find the abstract metaphysical speculation by Bailey, other esotericists and the Theosophists to have no practical value within the field of astrology or in answering real questions. These questions relating to the process of incarnation are not answered or served at all, in my opinion, with answers entangled with the limitations and abstractions of astrological language.

So I will answer your question directly, based on my understanding of the Edgar Cayce readings on the topic, and on the accounts of NDE survivors who have been there and returned, and based on my own dynamic relationship with the "other side" from which we come.

The Soul is to be understood differently from Spirit. Soul is an individuation of Spirit, but "spirit" also refers to the very life force itself that every Soul has as its own. So when a Soul incarnates, it extends its life force (etheric silver/blue cord) to the human body to begin the process of living as a human. This moment is THE birth moment and happens most often (up to 4 hours or more) before physical birth, but can happen shortly thereafter. Cayce called this "spiritual birth" (I personally don't like the term, but it appears necessary to understand the overall process). The moment when the full embodiment happens is termed "soul birth" and generally happens after spiritual birth.

The silver/blue etheric cord that NDE survivors say they see connecting them to their bodies while they are being worked on in the ER or operating room is that Spirit referred to by Cayce's description of spiritual birth. Death does not actually take place until that cord has been severed or pulled from the body. As long as it is connected to the human body that is that person, it is still alive (even if not by medical/scientific definition). Life is defined spiritually, not materially only.

Astrologically, there has to be a particular relationship (of which I am uninformed) between Sun, Moon, Uranus, Ascendant for ANY incarnation to occur. While a body can pop out of a mother's womb at any time (the mother's biological finishing process), an interdimensional opening must take place (Sun-Moon-Uranus-Asc) for the real entry to happen.

You have to remember that an interdimensional event is taking place that cannot be described in the terms of ordinary mundane consciousness. Nor do the metaphysical (or even astrological) abstractions of esotericists help much in understanding this process. Most of it is nonsense in my opinion. Instead read the accounts of NDE experiencers and know that they are experiencing birth in reverse. These accounts come from real people living today and in recent times who can relate it to us in ordinary language without metaphysical abstractions.

A baby-to-be hovers around the prospective mother/father and actually mixes and interacts with their energy layers. I've participated in this process as a prospective father just these last few months (late last year). There is a communicative process that can happen consciously if you choose. It can also occur in dreams. However, charts cast for "conception" are not the charts to use for individuals who have been born since the Soul that may be born to that mother can still change. One may back out and another may step in because it isn't an do/don't kind of thing, so long as the mother still wants a child. Some people even back out last minute, and there is no time left for another soul to take its place, therefore a miscarriage/stillbirth, etc occurs.

It is a fascinating area of study and should be studied increasingly by those who want to master astrology.

I can tell you without reservation that the so-called "first breath" theory does not give consistently reliable natal chart results. It isn't that it is "wrong," as much as it was made by those who were only viewing "birth" through linear eyes boxed in by matter, speculating metaphysically instead of getting information from real experience. We have Near Death Experiencers now who can tell us what they experienced in death, a kind of birth in reverse.

To go from this dimension to the next, a doorway must be opened. It cannot occur just anytime. The "first breath" theory does not take this into account.

[Cosmiccradle]

A interesting recent study that just came out in an attemp (let me repeat) "in an attempt" to explain NDE.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-near-death-experiences-blood-carbon-dioxide/

or

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080910090829.htm

I will reply later to your excellent post, to do it justice I will need some time that I do not have at the moment. In advance thank you.

[Cosmiccradle]

You touch on many areas in your post from NDE to astral projection. Although they do have something in common I only want to touch on one part of your post.


A baby-to-be hovers around the prospective mother/father and actually mixes and interacts with their energy layers. I've participated in this process as a prospective father just these last few months (late last year). There is a communicative process that can happen consciously if you choose. It can also occur in dreams. However, charts cast for "conception" are not the charts to use for individuals who have been born since the Soul that may be born to that mother can still change. One may back out and another may step in because it isn't an do/don't kind of thing, so long as the mother still wants a child. Some people even back out last minute, and there is no time left for another soul to take its place, therefore a miscarriage/stillbirth, etc occurs.


I am in agreement as to your statement that the soul can hover and is indecisive as to it's choice. Also that a soul can back out at the last moment. The statement:

One may back out and another may step in because it isn't an do/don't kind of thing, so long as the mother still wants a child.

I disagree on this. What you're talking about can happen in adult life when people play around with spirits, creating situations like The Search for Bridey Murphy (no comment on it's authenticity) and leave themselves open for those hovering around, but the choice of a baby soul remains the same.

Astrologically, there has to be a particular relationship (of which I am uninformed) between Sun, Moon, Uranus, Ascendant for ANY incarnation to occur. While a body can pop out of a mother's womb at any time (the mother's biological finishing process), an interdimensional opening must take place (Sun-Moon-Uranus-Asc) for the real entry to happen.


Is this from Cayce or another source? I can't quite place what type of situation it would be in the chart if one were to have to use four points, three I can picture.

[Kannon]

CC -

Alan Leo and John Willner, and perhaps other astrologers, were aware of the relationship of Sun-Moon-Uranus-Asc. It is mentioned in the table of contents of one of Leo's books. I had the chance to buy it at a used book store a several years ago and when I went back it was gone. Willner kept the formulas secret because they were given to him with that condition.

[Cosmiccradle]

CC -

Alan Leo and John Willner, and perhaps other astrologers, were aware of the relationship of Sun-Moon-Uranus-Asc. It is mentioned in the table of contents of one of Leo's books. I had the chance to buy it at a used book store a several years ago and when I went back it was gone. Willner kept the formulas secret because they were given to him with that condition.

Then the SEARCH IS ON!

[Cosmiccradle]

CC -

Alan Leo and John Willner, and perhaps other astrologers, were aware of the relationship of Sun-Moon-Uranus-Asc. It is mentioned in the table of contents of one of Leo's books. I had the chance to buy it at a used book store a several years ago and when I went back it was gone. Willner kept the formulas secret because they were given to him with that condition.

I can tell you without reservation that the so-called "first breath" theory does not give consistently reliable natal chart results. It isn't that it is "wrong," as much as it was made by those who were only viewing "birth" through linear eyes boxed in by matter, speculating metaphysically instead of getting information from real experience. We have Near Death Experiencers now who can tell us what they experienced in death, a kind of birth in reverse.


I'm in full agreement with that statement.

[Cosmiccradle]

I seem to have forgotten how pointless it is to say anything regarding house systems unless I first preface treatment of the Asc.

I do not use physical birth time Ascendants, nor does any INCARN Astrologer. Incarn astrology calculates Asc with the birth time (if there is a reliable one) only as a starting place, but determined by the algorithms known by Alan Leo, John Willner, Fred Bickum, which involve the use of the Sun, Moon, Uranus to determine what are essentially the inter-dimensional doorways through which a person can "enter" this dimension. Astrologers who have known these algorithms have not shared them with others. They are available now to everyone in the form of the INCARN software. [ INCARN2 for windows www.sbastro.com (http://www.sbastro.com) ]

Seems a little weird "big secret to be had in software" what's your take on this Kannon?

Or is macthebull (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=93604559) perhaps better, pic sure looks like you.

http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=100266570&page=10&EntryID=70350159&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=0&lastpagesent=9&Mytoken=2B26C574-B6A8-4F26-952801CEF1F64C0D96062107

All mixed up CC.

[dr. farr]

This reminds me a bit of what I posted regarding the "3 sealings" and "blood-line karma" concepts, and also a little bit regarding the "Past Life Chart" concept. However, in the esoteric tradition from which these ideas spring, the nodes are regarded as the principle doorways, and also certain stars.

[Kannon]

Seems a little weird "big secret to be had in software" what's your take on this Kannon?

Or is [B]macthebull (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=93604559) perhaps better, pic sure looks like you.

http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=100266570&page=10&EntryID=70350159&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=0&lastpagesent=9&Mytoken=2B26C574-B6A8-4F26-952801CEF1F64C0D96062107

All mixed up CC.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't like the secrecy either. Whatever the reasons were originally, I don't think they are relevant any longer. I don't view astrology as "occult." To me it is part of nature, and while there may be deeper or more 'esoteric' aspects of it, I see it as something Universal that should be shared. I'm not mathematically inclined at all, so I've had to learn a roundabout method of roughly back-engineering accurate Ascendants.

Each birth chart holds all of its own secrets, so if you study it in reference to the person it belongs to then you can unlock these things.

What I learned is that by the time a person is a 30-40 year-old adult, they've experienced enough (probably even by age 21 or so) to reveal their correct Asc by transits of Uranus angular to the correct Asc. These angular Uranus transits quicken, or at least, disrupt the normal rhythm and patterns of the person's life so that things abnormal or unusual occur during about a 2-year period during the transit. So I look for this during an initial client intake. It is often actually easy to arrive at. A two year period of disturbance in the stability of relationships/work/home life. Very often when you have t.Uranus square the (correct) Asc it will be preceded or followed by a conjunction or opposition to the (correct) MC, giving further clues to the correct Asc.

Also helpful are angular transits by Jupiter. This one is how I discovered my mom's correct Asc. She had no idea what time of day she was born and no document or anyone with any memory of the timing of the event. After proper study of the Asc Signs, it was obvious Aries is hers. After looking at dates of moves (via dad's memory and mine) while I was growing up a pattern emerged. She is the family leader, the impetus of decision-making. On dates of moves Jupiter and/or Uranus were in mid-late degree areas, especially Cardinal signs. I've since seen a similar pattern that allows me to adjust the charts of others.

To narrow down the correct degree you'll have to rely on transits by quicker moving planets, Sun, Mercury, Moon, Mars. These are the planets that time actions to within 1* or so. See Planets in Transit by Robert Hand and really study the Rules for Transit Timing. I've seen some astrologers I know here online who don't and they leap to conclusions with errant rectifications as a result. (Even R. Hand uses an incorrect birth chart for Nixon, included in book. Nixon's correct AS = 19CAN52 with t.Pluto opp n.MC at the time of his resignation).

So I don't need the secret Incarn formulas. I've learned to make adjustments to find the Asc degree using Transits for significant life events, and to find tune that using secondary progressions.

So while I think some of the others here have actually answered the question better - in terms of astrological concepts - I find the only answer that matters is to the question that matters, which is, "What were the birth chart specifics (Asc, MC) of this specific person, so that I can understand and interpret their original intentions/history before incarnating?"

That question I can answer. There is no reliable formula (outside the "secret" ones I mentioned) or time interval that applies to everyone.

[Kannon]

And yes, macthebull is me on myspace. That was my old yahoo ID as well.

[Astro-Intuitive]

This is an extremely interesting thread! I am glad to see other astrologers (such as Cosmiccradle) employing the INCARN technology and methods of horoscope verification and total functionality. I would like to know more about what specific books by Alan Leo mentioned the Sun-Moon-ASC relationship to the precise moment horoscope elements become "fixed" in a horoscope. (Willner mentions a connection among the Sun-Moon-Uranus.)

I was fortunate enough to get to know John Willner for a short time before he died (although, through e-mail correspondence - not in person) and to purchase the program from Fred Bickum (updated as Incarn2) shortly thereafter. I also agree that this method needs to be explicity known, because I think it will help so many astrologers (and the astrological community as a whole) to raise astrology to the standard of precision and practical application to which it is highly capable (and attainable).

The only other thing that I know plays a role in the moment cosmic elements become fixed in a horoscope - other than the Sun-Moon-Uranus connection - is the zodiacal signs of Cancer and Sagittarius (which have a correlation to the Pineal and Pituitary glands, respectively, in the human body).

If anyone has more insights into this I'd be very much interested in hearing more.

Shaun

[Cosmiccradle]

This is an extremely interesting thread! I am glad to see other astrologers (such as Cosmiccradle) employing the INCARN technology and methods of horoscope verification and total functionality. I would like to know more about what specific books by Alan Leo mentioned the Sun-Moon-ASC relationship to the precise moment horoscope elements become "fixed" in a horoscope. (Willner mentions a connection among the Sun-Moon-Uranus.)

I was fortunate enough to get to know John Willner for a short time before he died (although, through e-mail correspondence - not in person) and to purchase the program from Fred Bickum (updated as Incarn2) shortly thereafter. I also agree that this method needs to be explicity known, because I think it will help so many astrologers (and the astrological community as a whole) to raise astrology to the standard of precision and practical application to which it is highly capable (and attainable).

The only other thing that I know plays a role in the moment cosmic elements become fixed in a horoscope - other than the Sun-Moon-Uranus connection - is the zodiacal signs of Cancer and Sagittarius (which have a correlation to the Pineal and Pituitary glands, respectively, in the human body).

If anyone has more insights into this I'd be very much interested in hearing more.

Shaun

Although the Sun-Moon-Uranus has already been mentioned before, someone is yet to say how this contact looks like or takes place in the horoscope. As for the Sun-Moon-ASC what you mention sounds like the Truitine of Hermes, or at least the Moon-Asc part.

[Caro]

this is fascinating.

my niece was born premature - 2 months. she has mainly fire but does have some water.her mother was involved in a car accident which brought on the labour.

however this thread then also got me thinking about spirits and death! I think there is a link. I guess we are less comfortable with this side of the spirit leaving the body.

my dad died July 1996 at the time Sun in cancer etc - I need to check the chart of this. but I saw his spirit leave his body which was sometime after he had 'officially died' . this started a whole chain of stuff for me and an interest in spirituality etc.

I found the whole thing quite comforting,

[Cosmiccradle]

this is fascinating.

my niece was born premature - 2 months. she has mainly fire but does have some water.her mother was involved in a car accident which brought on the labour.

however this thread then also got me thinking about spirits and death! I think there is a link. I guess we are less comfortable with this side of the spirit leaving the body.

my dad died July 1996 at the time Sun in cancer etc - I need to check the chart of this. but I saw his spirit leave his body which was sometime after he had 'officially died' . this started a whole chain of stuff for me and an interest in spirituality etc.

I found the whole thing quite comforting,

I'd be interested in the chart of your niece, if she has any planets rising. I'm going to collect and sift through the http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24388
thread. If you have anything add it there. Also in regards to this thread it would be great if you have any information to add.

[Kannon]

This is an extremely interesting thread! I am glad to see other astrologers (such as Cosmiccradle) employing the INCARN technology and methods of horoscope verification and total functionality. I would like to know more about what specific books by Alan Leo mentioned the Sun-Moon-ASC relationship to the precise moment horoscope elements become "fixed" in a horoscope. (Willner mentions a connection among the Sun-Moon-Uranus.)

I was fortunate enough to get to know John Willner for a short time before he died (although, through e-mail correspondence - not in person) and to purchase the program from Fred Bickum (updated as Incarn2) shortly thereafter. I also agree that this method needs to be explicity known, because I think it will help so many astrologers (and the astrological community as a whole) to raise astrology to the standard of precision and practical application to which it is highly capable (and attainable).

The only other thing that I know plays a role in the moment cosmic elements become fixed in a horoscope - other than the Sun-Moon-Uranus connection - is the zodiacal signs of Cancer and Sagittarius (which have a correlation to the Pineal and Pituitary glands, respectively, in the human body).

If anyone has more insights into this I'd be very much interested in hearing more.

Shaun

Shaun,

You're lucky to have been able to communicate with John Willner before he died. I missed out and was really sad a couple years ago when I learned he'd died a few years previous. I'd hoped to meet him in person.

I don't have the Incarn software and I've lost touch with Fred Bickum. Do you know anything about him now? I haven't been able to get an email response from him for quite a while.

I think I've already put my insights into this thread. I'll pretty much share everything I've learned. I don't keep secrets. Since I have not been able to spend $500 on Incarn2 (or didn't want to), I determined to learn how to determine the same Asc results (at least within a degree). It starts with knowing your signs really well. Unfortunately most professional astrologers don't, and I had to have some hard lessons from Bickum by email before I turned things around and sharpened my skills considerably.

You can email me anytime about your work and anything else you'd like to say.

Peace

[Astro-Intuitive]

Shaun,

You're lucky to have been able to communicate with John Willner before he died. I missed out and was really sad a couple years ago when I learned he'd died a few years previous. I'd hoped to meet him in person.

I don't have the Incarn software and I've lost touch with Fred Bickum. Do you know anything about him now? I haven't been able to get an email response from him for quite a while.

I think I've already put my insights into this thread. I'll pretty much share everything I've learned. I don't keep secrets. Since I have not been able to spend $500 on Incarn2 (or didn't want to), I determined to learn how to determine the same Asc results (at least within a degree). It starts with knowing your signs really well. Unfortunately most professional astrologers don't, and I had to have some hard lessons from Bickum by email before I turned things around and sharpened my skills considerably.

You can email me anytime about your work and anything else you'd like to say.

Peace


Hi Kannon,

Fred has been traveling around the world on his boat he built (or several boats he built) for the past couple of years. I am not sure if he is in the States now, because I haven't spoken to him in a while. I just tried contacting about a week ago but will e-mail you with his contact information. Also, I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have about INCARN, John Willner and his astrological insights. Other than John, Fred is the only other astrologer who probably knows the most about INCARN.

Take care,
Shaun

[Cosmiccradle]

Soul enters the body
When sperm fuses with ovum
Just before birth
Forty days after conception
Quickening
Does not exsist, it is the breath of God.
Comes and goes (choice of body is not yet decided)

[Caprising]

You seem to be assuming that the soul has a choice of when it is incarnated, what if that time is up to a higher authority?

[Cosmiccradle]

You seem to be assuming that the soul has a choice of when it is incarnated, what if that time is up to a higher authority?
How it comes to be is not the question, it is the time when it happens.

[Kannon]

The 'higher authority' is your Soul - the REAL YOU. Not the human you in a state of amnesia.

FREE WILL. It is ONLY the Soul that has choice as to when it incarnates. We may get input, but it is our choice.

However, just as when going from your house to another's, a door must be opened. We cannot just blast through to this dimension at any moment. It first cooperates with the Universal order of things, which Superstring Theory is starting to put into scientific terms. It also cooperates with biology, but biology does not define it. It is the manifestation of it.

[Cosmiccradle]

The 'higher authority' is your Soul - the REAL YOU. Not the human you in a state of amnesia.

FREE WILL. It is ONLY the Soul that has choice as to when it incarnates. We may get input, but it is our choice.

However, just as when going from your house to another's, a door must be opened. We cannot just blast through to this dimension at any moment. It first cooperates with the Universal order of things, which Superstring Theory is starting to put into scientific terms. It also cooperates with biology, but biology does not define it. It is the manifestation of it.

Ah now I follow, yes I do believe the soul has a choice, (to a point, we are sent to make that choice) not only that it's choice is directed towards the lessons that need to be learned, the karma that needs to be fulflled. Once the choice has been made, and the soul enters all is wiped clean of the memory or reason for that choice, so that the lessons are not influenced and are in fact learned. This is an extremely painful stand, because we find ourselves on a plain with things like child abuse, born into poverty, illness. There are many who believe we choose our parents, and do so with reason. The whole foundation on incarnation as far as I'm concerned is based on that "what we must finish before we can move on." Some are lucky and may fulfill this in heaven, others will have to return and do it via the flesh.

[Astro-Intuitive]

Hi All,

From what I am able to understand, conception starts in the MIND (the fourth dimension) of both parents. It is their intents and purposes that call forth the act of sex (or the motivative power that gives rise to and unites the higher mental-physical-emotional forces of creation) through which a child is made. Whatever was BORN INTO that influence (and whether their purposes were in harmony or at-variance – spiritual or carnal – explicitly stated and known – or assumed and not known) determines the BEGINNING of what is to take place thereafter in the process of the offspring/developing body within the womb.

Based on what I have studied thus far in my astrological and spiritual-related studies, the biological, astrological, and etheric or aerial forces (this last one, the “aerial”, pertains to those sympathetic influences that derive from the mother’s mental and emotional vibratory influences and their impact upon the umbilical cord and pineal of the growing biological body during the periods of gestation) ALL have an impact upon the growing biological organism representative of a human body.

These factors play a significant role in establishing the physiological and vibrational foundation of a body whose attunement would be in such a manner as to attract or (((…call forth…))) a particular soul (through that soul’s own attraction to same and by its own choice and objective for this period of development) that is seeking to incarnate. The planetary elements that are to become fixed in a soul’s astrological signature (or horoscope) would have to coincide not only with the attunement of the body that has been developed over the period of gestation (so that the soul’s encasement in same will enable it to attain or accomplish its purposes physically and mentally – or energetically, as a whole – via the capabilities instilled in the body that has been built for it) but also with its individuality (Sun sign), personality (Ascendant sign), predominate cosmic influence, overall life purpose/s and parallel associations with soon-to-be parents, siblings, friends, etc. (In some way or another, all of these signatures tend to mesh together like pieces of a puzzle – and the unitation of such highly complex configurations of astronomical [and utterly amazing!] proportions can only be explain by, or attributed to, one single force: God, Universal Mind, Cosmic Consciousness or whatever one wants to call it.)

This would imply that while the biological organism is very much alive, and of a human nature, the soul itself does not enter into that body until it is ready to enter into this world (via birth). It is during this time (during labor) that the soul is involved in the decision-making process as to what horoscope elements it much choose for the body in which it seeks to inhabit. Since such would involve consuming a huge amount of information, understanding that information thoroughly and the implications that a choice with respect to same would entail, I can only speculate that soul minds operate at a much higher and faster level and must be of super intelligence!

In any case, upon completion of same (i.e., of the cosmic template being instantaneously and energetically “locked” into the infant’s body . . . this usually occurs within a six-hour time frame before physical birth entry), the physical birth (or first breath) takes place (which might be the phase that “activates” the cosmic template and puts it into motion).

In spite of the above-mentioned information, any matters regarding the spiritual, soul-birth entry, et cetera, is quite hard to demonstrate or validate with ironclad proofs (although, certainly not impossible). A key component to finding answers would be for there to be a scientific interest in studying the electron energy of the soul (for that which we call life is, indeed, of an electronic source). In fact, the functionality of the biological, mechanical, chemical, spiritual (cosmic/astrological) and electrical forces within a human body is what enables the soul to stay alive therein. When any of those stop functioning and the body becomes short-circuited (either through the heart or brain) to a point where the most essential resources needed to replenish, rejuvenate and renew the vital energies of the body, or they are depleted, the soul is either pushed out of, or exits, the body . . . into infinity.


Regards,
Shaun

[dr. farr]

Along the above lines, specifically regarding the initiating first breath, among advocates of swara-shastra (pranayama) in India, the subtle channel through which the first pranic breath is drawn by the newborn makes a difference upon which subtle elements will "imprint" upon the field of that infant:
-if an "ida" (left nostril) first breath, - polarity (or, to use a Chinese term, "Yin") influences will primarily imprint the subtle field
-if a "pingala" (right nostril) first breath, + polarity ("Yang") influences will primarily imprint the subtle field
-if a sushumna (both nostrils) first breath, both + and - polarities will equally imprint the substle field

By this swara-shastra explanation, the differing life results of exact time-twins can be accounted for: if time twin A drew an "ida" breath, and time twin B drew a "pingala" breath, in the case of time twin A the -polarity (Yin) elements of the natal cosmic state would have imprinted, while in the case of time twin B the +polarity (Yang) elements of the natal cosmic state would have imprinted; results would obviously be quite different between the two!

An interesting concept-actually there is a great deal more to swara-shastra and its applications to astrological considerations than my very brief mention above-I learned about this theory/practice from Jaimini jyotishi in Ponmudi forest, Kerala, some time ago. I will post more about some of these unusual ideas in the future.

[Cosmiccradle]

Shaun, and Dr. Farr it is a pleasure to read your posts, and take up this interesting side of conceptional astrology. Thank you both.

[dr. farr]

Refreshing this intersting thread...

[Caprising]

I know a guy who once took too much acid, and left his body for a few seconds , he said that he went back into his body very quickly because he thought that his body might be dying! My question is which planet gives the similar body chemistry change that L.S.D. gives? Uranus?

[dr. farr]

I can see Uranus having a potential affinity to this, but relative to psychedelic and entheogenic effects Neptune is the "king" (according to my studies and experiences)

[Vagabondgirl]

Ive read that some astrologers do a chart for the moment of conception and that this is an alternative chart for the native. But I assume this is not easy to do, because many women probably dont know the exact time of conception unless they are charting their cycles very closely....

[Caprising]

Ive read that some astrologers do a chart for the moment of conception and that this is an alternative chart for the native. But I assume this is not easy to do, because many women probably dont know the exact time of conception unless they are charting their cycles very closely....
The solarfire computer program has a range of pre-natal charts, you ussually get a choice of 2 -5 charts to choose from. A factor influencing the prenatal conception time is wether the fetus is male or female, honing in on the correct time with more accuracy!

I'm told that you can progress your chart backwards to the time of conception and watch what happens with the planets/aspects while one is in-utero, I tried this with my daughters chart, she was in a fairly severe car accident while still in her mothers uterus. Her chart progressed backwards to the day/hour of the accident has her moon conjunct Chiron within 35 minutes! Coincidence?....maybe.....

[Mark]

It's usually impossible to find the date of conception, much less the exact time. It's hard enough to determine the correct physical time of birth. It seems that you would have to examine thousands of people before you could find one that could prove date and time of conception. You also have the problem of "unnatural" birth, meaning odd amounts of time spent in utero. The gestation period of humans is a bit of an average anyway. It just reminds me that the "average person" doesn't actually exist.

Beyond that, my recent research has been changing my opinions on a few things. I've found a couple of Edgar Cayce readings in which soul birth took place after physical birth. So, some individuals experience soul birth prior to physical birth and some after. This contradicts some things I've said on this forum in the past. The time window for soul birth seems to be highly flexible. Further, I've also found a Cayce reading which explicitly states that the physical birth time should be used for horoscopes, not the time of soul birth. The reason given is the fact that the physical birth chart will describe influences and inclinations in the experience of the body, without regard to will.

This seems to infer that the soul chart might include some "defaults" of will. This would necessarily mean that the astrological influences of the soul are in a perpetual state of flux and thus are subject to change according to the will of the individual. I get the feeling that our charts are an inadequate method of talking about astrology that pertains to the soul. It's too rapidly changing and doesn't always throw indicators that we can catch. According to Cayce, what we here know to be astrology should be applied only to the physical birth time. I've read so many lately that it's difficult to sort them, but I believe that statement was in 3744-4.

[Caprising]

The solarfire program for prenatal charts has so far had 2 main aspects between the nodes and the moon for the time of conception, one being nodes conjunct moon, the other being nodes square moon. I don't know why the solarfire program writers have used these 2 positions, maybe Stephanie Johnson (one of the creators) knows something about conception timing that we don't!

Did anyone see the headline recently concerning the earthquake in New Zealand? There were scores of babies born following the quake according to the local hospital. At first one has to consider the trauma the pregnant mothers felt when the quake hit, as trauma can bring on labour early, however, I can't help but wonder if the same "vibrations" or "waves" that were responsible for the quake are also responsible for the timing of births.......

[Jesusistheway]

Dr. farr. is the third seal the culmination of the 1st and 2nd seals? what exactly are the seals in each stage? so the spark enters the 3rd seal or the first?

[dr. farr]

The Spark enters at the time of the first sealing (according to this tradition) and the 3rd sealing is the culmination of the previous 2 sealings; but this 3rd sealing impacts the ectodermal cell level, from which we develop our brain and nerves (and skin), so this 3rd sealing (the Cosmic influences operativeat that time) would have a major impression upon our mind, emotions, senses, personality, and the nerve-communication/program in our body.

[Jesusistheway]

The Spark enters at the time of the first sealing (according to this tradition) and the 3rd sealing is the culmination of the previous 2 sealings; but this 3rd sealing impacts the ectodermal cell level, from which we develop our brain and nerves (and skin), so this 3rd sealing (the Cosmic influences operativeat that time) would have a major impression upon our mind, emotions, senses, personality, and the nerve-communication/program in our body.

So did the traditional astrologers rectify the chart for the first sealing or the third? I am wondering so I can do it myself. Also how long before one is born to rectify it to the first sealing? I am just curious.

[dr. farr]

Traditional astrology has no recorded reference to this 3 sealings concept-remember it was explained to me by followers of a hermetic society as part of their esoteric tradition. Traditional astrology DOES have certain pre-natal epoch techniques, the first recorded method going back to Ptolemy himself!
But not the 3 sealings concept.

I think rectification to the final (3rd sealing) would be sufficient for experimentation: I think the simplest way might be just going back 90 days from the time of birth (like you accidentally did), erecting the chart, and then setting up a complete mid-point chart using that chart and the actual birth time chart: this might be one way to make a test of this, or to see if that mid-point chart might reveal things (events, attitudes, trends) not seen in the actual birth time chart.

[Jesusistheway]

Thanks I rectified the mid point which is 45 days before the actual date of birth. I'm checking it out right now.

[JUPITERASC]

The Spark enters at the time of the first sealing (according to this tradition) and the 3rd sealing is the culmination of the previous 2 sealings; but this 3rd sealing impacts the ectodermal cell level, from which we develop our brain and nerves (and skin), so this 3rd sealing (the Cosmic influences operativeat that time) would have a major impression upon our mind, emotions, senses, personality, and the nerve-communication/program in our body.
A Doctor pronounced a new born twin boy dead: the child was then given to the mother and father to "say goodbye" but instead of "saying goodbye", the mother cuddled the child for two hours, talking to the child, telling the child his name: after initially gasping for air (when the doctor was informed of this, the doctor said this was "simply a reflex action" that it was 'impossible for the child to be alive') however the child's gasps for air became stronger and stronger and the child lived. http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/38989084#38989084 :smile:

[tsmall]

Interesting. I wonder if the child's actual birth time would need to be adjusted to the moment of that first breath...

[JUPITERASC]

Interesting. I wonder if the child's actual birth time would need to be adjusted to the moment of that first breath...
dr. farr is likely to find this event interesting and may have an informed opinion tsmall - personally my opinion is that the child was alive all along, just in a state of 'hiatus' - dependent entirely on the parents for warmth and encouragement. :smile:

[dr. farr]

I'll go with that likelihood, JUPITERASC.

TSMALL: I would adjust the birth time to the first gasping of air by the revived infant

[dr. farr]

refreshing this thread