Scorpio and Mars

[Earth Sign]

I've got a question. If Scorpio is the sign of sex, how did Mars end up as the planet of sex? Isn't Mars supposed to be the ruler of Aries?

Everything I've heard is that Mars and Venus are the planets noticed most in relational charts. Venus is the ruler of Libra, and it's the planet of beauty, relationships and design. Mars is more confusing. Some people have said that Aries is also a highly sexual sign, but I think they're just attributing some of Scorpios traits to Aries through the supposed rulership of Mars.

Carl Payne Tobey (you knew this was coming) said that Mars is the ruler of Scorpio. Additionally, Pluto is the ruler of Aries. I wrote another thread on it here (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23427), but it didn't get any notices.

I've only brought it up again because of my confusion over the traditional purpose of Mars, and I formed this question through repeatedly noticing the mention of Mars in the relational astrology section.

Your insight would be more than welcome. :happy:

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Traditionally Venus is the planet of lust and sex.

Just thought I'd share.

[JayM]

Mars is the planet of how your sexuality is expressed and how action is taken. Scorpio is the sign of transformation through sex (and some other things). Mars is still the planet of how your sexuality is expressed dispite what sign it is in. Aires is the sign of the pioneer that is venturing into new territory. Scorpio is the sign of depth and transformetion, sex, and death that is easily expressed through mars. Aires would bring out the pioneering "me first" side of mars that is easily expressed by mars and scorpio brings out the transformative sexual side of mars. These 2 signs are ruled by mars because their innate qualities are expressed naturally by mars but mars in aires (and any other sign) still has sexual energy to express. The concept of rulership here (I think) is what energies planets can naturally or easily express, mars easily expresses both arian and scorpio energy same as venus most easily expressing taurus or libra energy. Dispite whatever sign mars is in of course the person will have sexual energy to express, also in a book I read think of it this way, if a planets is in a sign it rules that is called the planet being in dignity which is like a person in his or her own house and you control the circumstances (a house that a person lives in, not the houses of the natal chart), an exaltation is you being comfortable in a firends house, a planet in its fall is where it doesn't feel comfortable in the house it is in, and a planet in its detriment (opposite of what it rules) is in a house where it has to conform to certain rules and regulations. This if for what sign it is in there are also accidental dignities and exaltations if the planet is in a house that is ruled by that sign.

The book I took this from is The only way to learn astrology volume 1 basic principles by Marion D. March and Joan McEvers

I think she was talking about modern astrology in her book

I hope that my comments have brought some light to your question.

:happy:

P.S. if I have made a mistake in my facts feel free to correct me.

[astrologer50]

The book I took this from is The only way to learn astrology volume 1 basic principles by Marion D. March and Joan McEvers

I think she was talking about modern astrology in her book
In modern astrology mars only rules one sign and that's Aries. Traditional astrologers however differ and they do say it rules Scorpio because they don't use or go past Saturn ---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_astrology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_astrology)
http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp (http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp)

[astrologer50]

I've got a question. If Scorpio is the sign of sex, how did Mars end up as the planet of sex? Isn't Mars supposed to be the ruler of Aries? In actual fact Aries & taurus are both highly sexed signed joint 2nd after scorpio. Mars DOES rules Aries in Modern Astrology!
When looking at a woman’s chart the type of man she would look for is her sun sign and mars traits, plus 7th house planets and house cusp ruler and where that ruler was deposited.
When looking at a mans chart for the type of woman he would look for is his venus and moon sign and then 7th house planets and house cusp ruler and where that ruler was deposited.

Everything I've heard is that Mars and Venus are the planets noticed most in relational charts. Venus is the ruler of Libra,(and Taurus) and it's the planet of beauty, relationships and design. Mars is more confusing. Some people have said that Aries is also a highly sexual sign, but I think they're just attributing some of Scorpios traits to Aries through the supposed rulership of Mars. Scorpio naturally rules 8th house of SEX,joint finances, inheritances, occult and other peoples values.

Carl Payne Tobey (you knew this was coming) said that Mars is the ruler of Scorpio. Additionally, Pluto is the ruler of Aries. I wrote another thread on it here (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23427), but it didn't get any notices. But is this Carl a Traditonal or Modern astrologer? sound like Traditional to me ---

I've only brought it up again because of my confusion over the traditional purpose of Mars, and I formed this question through repeatedly noticing the mention of Mars in the relational astrology section.

Your insight would be more than welcome. :happy:
perhaps some more research --


"Mars is a very physical planet, ruling adrenalin, the iron in the blood, the muscles, the genitals and the body's excretory system. So it describes the particular qualities of our physical, emotional and mental strength, which need to be harnessed to our will to survive."
http://www.astro.com/mtp/mtp32_e.htm

Lesson 3 from Astro.com

"Our next pair of planets, which are both complementary and opposite astrological principles, are Venus and Mars. In mythology they are usually either lovers or bitter enemies, often both at the same time. Jung described the complexity of the male/female relationship: "...We are inclined to think of this primarily as the power of love, of passion, which drives the two opposite poles together, forgetting that such a vehement attraction is needed only when an equally strong resistance keeps them apart."
http://www.astro.com/mtp/mtp3_e.htm

http://astrology.about.com/od/astrologyandrelationships/p/Mars.htm
http://www.cafeastrology.com/articles/lovesexastrology.html

[RayAustin]

In modern astrology mars only rules one sign and that's Aries. Traditional astrologers however differ and they do say it rules Scorpio because they don't use or go past Saturn ---


They don't use Saturn or go past it? Traditional astrologers can/would acknowledge the outer planets but they would not attribute any sign rulerships to them. Furthermore, that really doesn't have much to do with why Scorpio is attributed to Mars.

[Earth Sign]

Well, Carl Payne Tobey is a traditional astrologer, yes. But he advanced on the kind of astrology used by the ancients. He didn't believe one planet ruled two signs, in any case. But he did believe the signs supposedly ruled in pairs by one planet had a link, he called them Mate Signs, and said they were like opposite sides of the same coin.

He did not believe Taurus was ruled by Venus, though Libra and Taurus had a link. He believed there were two undiscovered planets beyond the orbit of Pluto which respectively ruled Taurus and Gemini. I mentioned this in the other thread I started, that I made a link to on my first post.

He also didn't believe Scorpio ruled the 8th house...

His work is controversial, and it's usually ignored. Initially I'm asking why, even though Scorpio is still the sign of sex, Mars is considered the planet of sex, while according to most people Mars does not rule Scorpio. It seems like a planet which supposedly isn't related to a sign is taking on that sign's traits.

[RayAustin]

The misconception might be that sex itself has to go to one planet. Mars is sexual, penetrative energy, it signifies sex, definitely. When I think of/feel the energy of Mars I think of machoism, heat, testosterone, stamina, libido--the male portion of sex. I wouldn't contest in anyway that Mars doesn't rule or contribute in anyway to 'sex', that would be silly.

Pluto seems to be a deeper smouldering energy, as if its a greater power; that's just conjecture. It feels like the magnetic pull that brings one lover to another. Pluto feels like the attraction and the (beyond) intensity. Having Pluto conjunct the ascendant by less than a degree personally ... "how the world sees you" .. many people comment that I put out sexual energy, even though I for the most part don't have any desire to on a day-to-day basis, it doesn't seem to have an off switch. Venus applies to Pluto by 5° so it's debatable that's because of the conjunction aspect as some may say that's a wide orb and the energy would be 'weaker'. In a nutshell, I can't contest that Pluto hasn't sexual energy as well. That again, would be silly, especially from personal experience.

It's also highly debatable that Scorpio rules the 8th house at all. That's the idea of "natural houses", which isn't a universal thought. It seems blatantly obvious to me, but what might be obvious to one isn't to another.

So .. Mars is traditionally, the planet of sex. Pluto is the 'new age' planet of sex. What isn't debatable to me is that both have sexual energy, as Venus does to an extent--though Venus in my eyes is the partnership, 'getting together' and female aspect of it, more than the energy itself, if that makes sense. In a nutshell again, it's my thought process that more than one planet contributes to sex, and I can name five of them.

[Kannon]

I've got a question. If Scorpio is the sign of sex, how did Mars end up as the planet of sex? Isn't Mars supposed to be the ruler of Aries?

Everything I've heard is that Mars and Venus are the planets noticed most in relational charts. Venus is the ruler of Libra, and it's the planet of beauty, relationships and design. Mars is more confusing. Some people have said that Aries is also a highly sexual sign, but I think they're just attributing some of Scorpios traits to Aries through the supposed rulership of Mars.

Carl Payne Tobey (you knew this was coming) said that Mars is the ruler of Scorpio. Additionally, Pluto is the ruler of Aries. I wrote another thread on it here (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23427), but it didn't get any notices.

I've only brought it up again because of my confusion over the traditional purpose of Mars, and I formed this question through repeatedly noticing the mention of Mars in the relational astrology section.

Your insight would be more than welcome. :happy:

Ray Austin has it...
The problem here is when astrologers try to tie things up all nice and neat in categories in which the left brain is attempting to organize or simplify things that are intuitive and understood just fine by the right brain so long as left brain analysis does not interfere. So we don't equate one planetary principle alone with sex. Sex is too complex for that.

Mars = action, assertion, anger, passion or energy expressed, penetrative energy, effort exerted, the blood, adrenals, heat. It is more kinesthetic, more active than Venus.

Venus = affection, values, the skin, visual or auditory attraction, more aesthetic/observational/passive - or at least tactile instead of penetrating. It is cooler.

When you get these two together you get "chemistry."

Pluto = total consciousness, undying/regenerative love, overpowering desire, rape, abuse, fated love, fatal attraction. All this depends on aspects and the consciousness of the person involved.

Sun = vital force, heart...
Moon = receptivity, memory...

See how there's more involved? You can't just pin "sex" to one sign or planet. Having said that, Scorpio is generally the most eroticized mode of expression in the zodiac. Even Scorpionic women who wouldn't cheat will read erotica. It doesn't mean they won't suppress sexual energy, but that it tends to be more intense than with other zodiacal types, all other things being equal. Next most sexualized is Virgo, but we wouldn't say Mercury = sex either would we? Taurus is generally too passive in its expression of Venusian princples. Libra quite sensual, but more active, more expressive, not so much sexual as sensual and relative, and guess what, one thing leads to another after all that relating and touching.

Mars is expressed through Scorpio in a way likened to Retrograde motion, internalized, and through a watery environment that is deep - reproductive and eliminative channels.

Mars is expressed through Aries in a way likened to Direct motion, outward, and through a fiery environment that imposes self outwardly - channels of head/senses (mouth/thought/auditory).

[Cosmiccradle]

Sexuallity to me has always been ruled by the 8th, 5th, Pluto, Mars, Venus, Scorpio all equaly important when searching the chart. Whereby Venus and Mars, rule the man and woman and the organs, Pluto, Scorpio and the 8th the sexual energy, and act. The 5th is the sexual relationship, or in all lords thereof.

[Earth Sign]

I see what you're saying, Kannon, it's because sex is just one of the principles of life, right?

But because Scorpio is the original Family Survival Dynamic it has the highest need for sexual intercourse and it get's the most personal benefit from that act. The other family oriented signs are also heavy sexual signs in their own right, Taurus, Aries and Libra. Those four signs all accounted for, Mars and Venus end up being the most sexual planets. They are both personal planets. That's why they go together so well, because in most cases you can't have good sex without a relationship, and you can't have a good relationship without sex. Is that right?

My essential question is why Mars is not generally considered the ruler of Scorpio when both planet and sign are considered the center of primal, physical, raw, passionate sex-for-the-sake-of-sex fornication. Water signs are the most primal signs, and because Scorpio is the family/water sign it is the most sexually primal sign. That's what I learned, anyway.

[Kannon]

I see what you're saying, Kannon, it's because sex is just one of the principles of life, right?

But because Scorpio is the original Family Survival Dynamic it has the highest need for sexual intercourse and it get's the most personal benefit from that act. The other family oriented signs are also heavy sexual signs in their own right, Taurus, Aries and Libra. Those four signs all accounted for, Mars and Venus end up being the most sexual planets. They are both personal planets. That's why they go together so well, because in most cases you can't have good sex without a relationship, and you can't have a good relationship without sex. Is that right?

My essential question is why Mars is not generally considered the ruler of Scorpio when both planet and sign are considered the center of primal, physical, raw, passionate sex-for-the-sake-of-sex fornication. Water signs are the most primal signs, and because Scorpio is the family/water sign it is the most sexually primal sign. That's what I learned, anyway.

Succinctly, I consider Mars the personal ruler of Scorpio and Pluto the collective ruler. Mars of itself is too self-oriented to be the source of the merging you describe that is the deep experience attributed to Scorpionic/Plutonian tendencies.

[Amy Vir Sn Ari Mn Pis Ris]

Humorously speaking.....I see Venus as the sensual seductress and Mars providing the physical connection or "attack" needed to complete the act.

Venus = thought or feelings
Mars = action

[RayAustin]

Succinctly, I consider Mars the personal ruler of Scorpio and Pluto the collective ruler. Mars of itself is too self-oriented to be the source of the merging you describe that is the deep experience attributed to Scorpionic/Plutonian tendencies.

Very good ... I agree. :smile: That's how I felt but couldn't quite state it as succinctly.

[Cosmiccradle]

Well, Carl Payne Tobey is a traditional astrologer, yes. But he advanced on the kind of astrology used by the ancients. He didn't believe one planet ruled two signs, in any case. But he did believe the signs supposedly ruled in pairs by one planet had a link, he called them Mate Signs, and said they were like opposite sides of the same coin.

He did not believe Taurus was ruled by Venus, though Libra and Taurus had a link. He believed there were two undiscovered planets beyond the orbit of Pluto which respectively ruled Taurus and Gemini. I mentioned this in the other thread I started, that I made a link to on my first post.

He also didn't believe Scorpio ruled the 8th house...

His work is controversial, and it's usually ignored. Initially I'm asking why, even though Scorpio is still the sign of sex, Mars is considered the planet of sex, while according to most people Mars does not rule Scorpio. It seems like a planet which supposedly isn't related to a sign is taking on that sign's traits.

But he did believe the signs supposedly ruled in pairs by one planet had a link, he called them Mate Signs, and said they were like opposite sides of the same coin.

Interesting, yet not uncommon, there is a stream here that uses different terminology but with the same foundation. A couple of examples using the planets....

Octave

Sun is the octave of Uranus
Venus the octave of Pluto

Mirror

Mars is the mirror image of Pluto
Jupiter is the mirror image of Neptune
Saturn is the mirror image of Uranus

I agree fully with Tobey. The trans Pluto planets, although undoubtedly there, should not be used in theory.

[Earth Sign]

Succinctly, I consider Mars the personal ruler of Scorpio and Pluto the collective ruler. Mars of itself is too self-oriented to be the source of the merging you describe that is the deep experience attributed to Scorpionic/Plutonian tendencies.

I think I understand what you mean, but I'm still a little bit confused about the term "collective ruler." I've often wondered about the fundamental difference between near planet signs and far planet signs, it seems like there would be some sort of divide between them in their characteristics.
But you seem to believe the respective near/far planets rule two signs equally? Do I have that right? It's interesting... I'd like to hear more about it...


Interesting, yet not uncommon, there is a stream here that uses different terminology but with the same foundation. A couple of examples using the planets....

Octave

Sun is the octave of Uranus
Venus the octave of Pluto

Mirror

Mars is the mirror image of Pluto
Jupiter is the mirror image of Neptune
Saturn is the mirror image of Uranus

I agree fully with Tobey. The trans Pluto planets, although undoubtedly there, should not be used in theory.

How do mean the additional planets should not be used in theory? If they are there then we shouldn't ignore their rulership any more than we would ignore Uranus, Neptune or Pluto, right? I'm very interested in the characteristics of these additional planets, but I've not gotten any clue as to which bodies they are.

[Ebenia]

Octave

Sun is the octave of Uranus
Venus the octave of Pluto
.

I have read and heard that Venus is the octave of Neptune, not Pluto? Cause for me, it makes a lot more sense to have Venus as a octave of Neptune, cause obviously, both of them rule artists and visions, dreams and beauty. I get that Pluto would work with Venus in a way that relationships are about passion and so on, but I have always thought that Mars and Pluto are a pair in this sense. Now I am confused....

Also, I have heard that Jupiter is a higher octave of Mercury and Saturn for Sun...?

[flea]

Seems to be quite a few varying ideas about what is the higher octave of what.

For me I love the symmetry of trad rulers...though I use mainly modern methods I suppose......so will post it just because I like it...

Sun Leo
Moon Cancer
Mercury Masculine Gemini Feminine Virgo
Venus Masc libra Fem taurus
Mars Masc aries Fem scorpio
Jupiter Masc Sagittarius Fem Picses
Saturn Masc Aquarius Fem Capricorn

The sun is see as esstentially masculine in nature and the Moon essentially feminine, all other planets have a masculine and feminine form as seen through the filter of the signs.

Water and Earth signs being feminine and Fore and Air signs being masculine.

Thought it might be interesting for some people.

FleaXX

[Cosmiccradle]

I think I understand what you mean, but I'm still a little bit confused about the term "collective ruler." I've often wondered about the fundamental difference between near planet signs and far planet signs, it seems like there would be some sort of divide between them in their characteristics.
But you seem to believe the respective near/far planets rule two signs equally? Do I have that right? It's interesting... I'd like to hear more about it...




How do mean the additional planets should not be used in theory? If they are there then we shouldn't ignore their rulership any more than we would ignore Uranus, Neptune or Pluto, right? I'm very interested in the characteristics of these additional planets, but I've not gotten any clue as to which bodies they are.

All schools using trans Pluto planets in their charts are attempting to fill the astrological holes within the Zodiac. Just as astrology now with one planet two signs. Although astronomy has shown through calculation and observation that there must be other planets behind Pluto, they have yet to be discovered. But how can one give qualities to a planet that has yet to be discovered. Through observation and calculation it was know that Uranus, Pluto and Neptune were present before their discovery, but the qualities of those planet were not known, nor did we use them in theory, nor did we attatch qualities to them until they were discovered. The two schools that I am aware of which use trans Pluto planets are the

WvA Holland

Perséphoné
Hermes
Demeter

Uranian Germany

Cupido
Hades
Zeus
Kronos
Apollon
Admetos
Vulcanus
Poseidon

All are hypothetical planets. Correct me if I'm wrong with some of them in the Uranian school, seeing as these are trans Neptune planets, and if I'm not mistaken in both schools Vulcanus is Mercury.

[StarReader]

Succinctly, I consider Mars the personal ruler of Scorpio and Pluto the collective ruler. Mars of itself is too self-oriented to be the source of the merging you describe that is the deep experience attributed to Scorpionic/Plutonian tendencies.

i really like this description of Mars and Pluto by sign. It makes total sense to me - :smile:

[Kannon]

I don't view signs as having single rulers. Instead I look at what planetary principles are in dignity or exaltation in that sign. Take Capricorn, for example. Mars is exalted there and Capricorn types do display proactive Martial energy - in a different way than an Aries type, but still its there. Saturn is dignified there, so I see two planetary principles expressed in the mode of expression that is Capricorn. Mostly Saturn, but also Mars.

In Scorpio, you have two principles expressed as well, Mars and Pluto. In any sign in which a 'ruler' or planetary principle can be seen operating, if one of those planets is a collective ruler it is an outer planet, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto.

Pisces = Jupiter, Neptune (collective ruler)
Aquarius = Saturn, Uranus (collective ruler)
Sagittarius = Jupiter, Neptune
Scorpio = Mars, Pluto (collective ruler). Few individuals, if any, display the Plutonian dominant expression of Mars at this point in human development. I'm sure there are some around. I suspect that if I did a study of a number of Indigo's, particularly Scorpio types, I'd find some examples.

[Pallas-trine-Mars]

My Virgo mind seeking perfection and order really, really, wants for each sign to have its own ruler! Which shows its dominance over that sign first and foremost with a deep, unique affinity with the sign it rules. ..Ok, each sign also with an exaltation and co-rulers with less significance.

Between Venus, Mars and Pluto, sex is most relevant with Venus and Pluto since Venus' issue is to attract people to each other and Pluto's is depth, intensity and expression of sexual identity. But Mars is definitely libidinous himself since it is almost definitely connectible to testosterone and is very instinctive in style, so all of them, really. I might also add Jupiter, some astrologers do after all connect it with indulging.

I'll post my thoughts on the other one as well if only for fun, but I think Pluto is just way too perfect for Scorpio, and almost always works as dispositor in my experience.