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AMANDRIA

08-05-2005, 02:53 AM

I know a little astrology, chiron is among those people I know either very much pay attention to it, or not at all. I near nothing past the basic mythology of chiron. I see others have discussed this but still have a hard time imagining what the transits would be like, depending on actual type aspect with a particular planet, or in a particular sign. I have chiron heading into my 11th house, that has a stellium sitting in it. So it will conjunct my merc, ven and sun so am curious about what to expect 1 and 2 I am not a fatalist so I know that there is a positive and a negative way that these things can play themselves out. I seek proactive ways of viewing astrology as one of the tools in life. Plus forewarned is forearmed!! :lol:

Amandria

AquariusMoon

08-06-2005, 03:52 AM

Hi ~

I can give you some general info only.

You will have to synthesize everything that's going on in your chart. You can't really take one aspect and get the whole picture. For instance, right now Chiron is opposed to Saturn. If Chiron was conjunct your Sun in H11 and Saturn was opposed to Chiron, in H5 Leo, you would have to look at those things together and see how it fits in your life in addition to all the other transits going on in your chart.

Here are some keywords associated with Chiron: Teacher, guru, mentor, turning point, catalyst, bridge, link, passageway, holistic, balance, dependence to independence, therapy, wound.

I can tell you that in looking back I have seen Chiron connected in some way to major turning points in my life. The connection can be an aspect to a planet or even a conjunction to a cusp.

Major periods re Chiron is when transiting Chiron is square, trine, opposed to natal Chiron, and the Chiron Return at about age 50.

~ AquariusMoon

tikana

08-10-2005, 08:50 PM

AquariusMoon

08-11-2005, 06:20 AM

Aqua,

I think you are one of the coolest people on earth

However, i am not buying this Chiron thing..

Too wierd and strange

Amandria, JUST IGNORE CHIRON!

Your key planets are pluto, neptune, uranus, saturn, jupiter

the rest makes things more complicated

Thanks
Tik

Thanks, Tik.

I think you're right, Chiron does complicate things for a new astrologer, but Baker just gave me a link to a great article by Zane Stein on the Chiron Return, which I realize I am just starting to go through right now. This article totally makes sense out of nonsense and has given me a great deal of clarity as to what is going on in my life, so I can't dismiss Chiron entirely at this point.

What I'm trying to say, Tik, is that I think when you're in your 30's it might be okay to dismiss Chiron, but when the Chiron Return comes it seems to be a big turning point. It's a time of making major decisions. Supposedly what happens at the Return sets the course for the future and paves the way for the 2nd Saturn Return. It seems to be about selflessness as opposed to selfishness. One is called upon to make a big choice that is not easy to make.

Chiron is a bridge (rainbow bridge, transformational bridge) from Saturn to Uranus. Saturn (Kronos) rules time. Chiron rules Chiros, the time outside of chronological time (no time). Uranus rules the future. You get a feel for your destiny at your Chiron Return, if that hasn't already happened, or you go straight to Oz. Just kidding.

I've talked to a few who have already gone through their Chiron Return and it had a major impact on them. Judging by that I'd have to say that the Chiron separating square, the Chiron opposition and the Chiron approaching square are also important turning points in one's life.

So, Amandria, how old are you? What stage of life are you at? Where is your natal Chiron? What house and what degree? What degrees are your H11 planets at?

~ AM

baker

08-11-2005, 07:56 PM

Dear Amandria, Tikana and Aq Moon: hum. Typical really, to downplay the Chiron, but I completely agree when Tikana said it's a little too wierd and strange, but not about ignoring it. There is no way, before I was 40 I could have comprehended it and it's influence but believe me, I wish I would/could have. If you ignore it, it WILL kick you in your heart. The inability to accept the Chiron influence is, I think, pretty much explained by Martin Lass: (submitted only for consideration, not trying to shove it down anybody's throat): Lass has such a grip on the essence of Chiron.

In a sense, we are required to repeat a grade of school.However, the likelihood of truly beginning in-depth work on our subsequent Healing and evolution of consciousness definitely diminishes with time.This is due to our age, to the general level of crystallization of our personality and to associated emotional habits, masks, protective mechanisms and ingrained escape routes.This is not to say that it is impossible.It simply becomes more difficult over time and we become less inclined to bother with it.

In this case, the Chiron Return can be, paradoxically, a time that we hardly notice due to the success of our long-standing patterns of avoidance and evasion.Conversely, it can be a time of monumental regret.The Chiron Return can open the Pandora's Box of our core Wounds and long-standing unresolved issues.Unable to deal with or answer the tortured callings that arise from our fragmented consciousness, we go into crisis or, alternatively, even deeper into retreat.Only in the final moments of death, maybe many years later, will we have an opportunity to feel Healing and sense the Truth of the Love around us and in us.It is only then that the stranglehold of our personality mechanisms finally relaxes with the weakening of our physical vehicle.I venture to suggest that, if you are reading this book and have gotten this far in it, you will not have to fear the aforementioned scenario!

Tikanak, I'm a peace loving Libra, four planets in Libra, extremely nonconfrontational, so please don't take that the wrong way, just spreading the Chiron healing vibe sweetie :wink: Peace and Love!

baker

08-11-2005, 07:57 PM

AQMoon: love the pic! 8)

foshow

08-12-2005, 03:22 AM

yo baker, i completely agree.

i also really think that the time of chiron's greatest influence depends upon the sign/house it is in someone's natal chart, as well as age.

for example, and i'll use myself for lack of any other example (sometimes i hate that there's not more information about chiron in the world!). in my chart, chiron is in gemini in the 7th house. usually, for me, that translates to an intense doubt of my mental and communication abilities. going through grade school, middle school, high school, was incredibly hard because i felt like i had to constantly wrestle with this wound instead of learning acceptance to heal it.

i also wasn't all that into astrology. but later on, when i happened upon information about chiron i ate it up like it was candy (an inherent gemini trait is a incredible thirst for knowledge--especially if the subject is engaging). in fact, i read in an article that for people with chiron in gemini the healing process is ultimately an enjoyable one since gemini loves new experiences and knowledge.

who knows, i'm just offering a couple of thoughts for conversations sake. what are everyone else's chiron signs/and or houses chiron is in?

AMANDRIA

08-12-2005, 07:40 AM

So, Amandria, how old are you? What stage of life are you at? Where is your natal Chiron? What house and what degree? What degrees are your H11 planets at?

I am 40 years old. My natal chiron is at 16 degree's Pisces, 12th house. Saturn sits there 2 but at 5 degrees. My sun is at 21 degrees aqua, venus 6 dgs and merc at 11 degrees both aqua. also 11th house. Neptune is at 16 degrees just having run over my venus and merc. Uranus is seperating from my natal saturn in pisces now its at 9 degrees/my natal saturn is at 5. natal chiron is at 16, and uranus is headed for it. Hope I have given enough info. Oh and Saturn is in 5th house, and will eventually oppose my ven, merc and sun in 11th house. Information overload? Wanted to make sure I got everything with good ole merc rx.

:) Amandria

baker

08-12-2005, 04:01 PM

Foshow: good for you, great to see someone Chiron-aware as you are. There isn't enough out there, I agree, to gobble up, but the stuff that is there, I like have to re-read it 4 times or more for it to sink in, it's so heavy. But, so good for my soul.

Amandria: tough placement for your Chiron, but not overcome-able. No wonder you are asking about it now, thank goodness, before your return: In the 12th house it shows a person who does more for others than theirselves, maybe even a compusltion to try to take crae of the poor, sick and unfortunate around them, but neglect your own needs, you yourself may be in need, or seem to be, and don't get this wrong, but most people with this placement tend to experience one frequently self-caused "problem" after another. This placement tends to make a person feel tired and fatigued, be sure to get plenty of rest. Chiron in Pisces means you have to make an extra effort to get rid of your unearned guilt, and stop wandering the world looking for people to "save," at least not until you have saved yourself first and be careful of a tendency to be a victim cause you do have the ability to help everyone else and doing that could be an excellent antidote for dealing with the negative side of this placement

Take care!

AquariusMoon

08-12-2005, 05:14 PM

Chiron is a bridge (rainbow bridge, transformational bridge) from Saturn to Uranus. Saturn (Kronos) rules time. Chiron rules Chiros, the time outside of chronological time (no time). Uranus rules the future. You get a feel for your destiny at your Chiron Return, if that hasn't already happened, or you go straight to Oz. Just kidding.

I have something to add that is making sense now after I read the article that refers to this part. I left it out because it didn't make sense, and now it does. This is it. Chiron is the bridge between Saturn and Uranus. If you cross the bridge from Saturn successfully, whatever the bridge is, and you make it to Uranus, you leave the Saturnian past behind forever and achieve freedom from anxiety of the Uranian furture. The key is to open up and embrace the wounded parts of yourself, your new reality, whatever that might be, before the Saturn Return arrives.

~ AM

baker

08-12-2005, 05:26 PM

Quite well put, Aquarius Moon. :D

Not quite sure I put it here or posted in the other ... who knows, mercury rx, at any rate, there is always a Saturn return after and the Chiron return completely affects that, so one simply must look at the Chiron to know the subsequent Saturn, they go hand in hand, yeah, cross that bridge

where is that confounded bridge .... Led Zeppelin (apparently they knew)

Lapis

08-13-2005, 05:25 AM

Lapis

08-13-2005, 06:20 AM

I have Chiron conjunct my Sun so I personally find the 'Wounded Healer' very interesting. Both of them are natally in Capricorn in 10 which means I carry a lot of Saturn energy. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just connecting it all in with Chiron as the 'Bridge' from Saturn to Uranus and beyond.

Hi AquariusMoon :D

We were talking about this Chiron business elsewhere but - here's my mini understanding about how this process works now. I know that you know all of this already.......I'm just sharing.

Saturn deals with physical reality and taking responsibility for what all we manifest into it. Structure within 3D physical reality. I'd guess that as we get closer to our 2nd Saturn Returns this entire business will become far more obvious and conscious and there's a big need to clean up any and all leftover issues from Uranus Opposition and also Chiron Return! Tall order.

Chiron functions exceedingly well outside of linear 3D time (Saturn) and He effortlessly deposits us out past the Rings, the limits of physical reality. (Personally I prefer The Big Dark Dudes Hula Hoops over Rings but....) I think the 'Uranus Future' mentioned, is referring to Uranus Return at 84 and how incredible this is, how so often it's when many break free and finally physically leave Earth (Saturn's realm) completely. Death of the mortal self, the Chiron archetype playing itself out. The big scary thing most folks are terrified of. So I'm guessing that if, IF we deal with our Chiron wounds, our having wounded others, and then try to heal the whole mess - we reach some new level of clearness where we literally carry higher energies (Uranus and others possibly) in our physical (Saturn) structural bodies.......we no longer carry within us fear of our mortal deaths. Chiron's resolved His painful situation.

So if we hang around until Uranus Return, we've previously done the 'Work' and have 'healed' in many ways , we have the opportunity to 'die a conscious death' if that's what Uranus Return calls us to do then. We can leave Saturn's physical realm with crystal clear bodies and hearts and NO FEAR and travel with Uranina higher understandings.

AMANDRIA

08-13-2005, 05:17 PM

Next logical step is how to use this so called bridge from saturn to uranus. Examples? How do we do this? its not enough to say this is what we need to do. This is like saying well I need to fix the carbuerator of car...with no manual or past experience. So please explain how to cross this bridge from saturn(guessing fears) to Uranus(freedom). What are we to expect with a uranus opposition looks like its coming in my direction.

Thanks guys,
Amandria

AquariusMoon

08-13-2005, 07:28 PM

Hi. I sent you a link that is pretty straightforward, and so I hope that it helps. "Chiron and the Healing Journey" by Melanie Reinhart is a book that is mentioned a lot. I have "Chiron: Transforming Bridge Between the Inner and Outer Planets," by Barbara Hand Clow. She's Robert Hand's sister. It's much different than the link I sent you. I find the link gives very practical advice. Perhaps you will want to visit these authors' web sites.

With all these upcoming Chiron contacts in H11, Saturn opp in H5, they say you'll be getting Uranian insights to deal with any obstacles that come up. Since you're so aware of this transit, you'll notice things starting to unfold. H11 deals with groups, friends, hopes, wishes, dreams. You'll be working on challenges associated with those things, or some kind of teaching.

The bridge I was talking about refers to the Chiron Return at about age 50. That's completely different than your transit. I'm just trying to figure it out and just discussing. There's very little written about it. You don't have to worry about the CR yet anyway. You'll be busy dealing with the H11/5 axis opp Saturn. You'll be working on getting the opposites to work together and not see-sawing back and forth.

The link I sent you says that Chiron is a little bit like Saturn in that there is a challenge, but you're not dealing with a fear or bad luck like with transiting Saturn, which is different than natal Saturn. With Chiron, it may be an insecurity or some kind of wound. I keep hearing people talk about Chiron + teaching, or a wound of some kind, regret.

In the link I sent you, it says Chiron shows something that you can teach others, but you can't do it yourself yet, so you have to keep trying until you get it right. Making the same mistake over and over, I keep hearing this about Chiron too. For example, in H2 maybe it's that one doesn't manage their money well, they keep squandering their financial resources. It sounds like it's an area of life where one keeps blowing it repeatedly. Can you relate? You can see in others how not to blow it, but you keep blowing it. Do as I say, not as I do.

After you read the link, please let me know what you think, if it's starting to make sense to you.

~ AM

AquariusMoon

08-13-2005, 09:08 PM

We were talking about this Chiron business elsewhere but - here's my mini understanding about how this process works now. I know that you know all of this already.......I'm just sharing.

Saturn deals with physical reality and taking responsibility for what all we manifest into it. Structure within 3D physical reality. I'd guess that as we get closer to our 2nd Saturn Returns this entire business will become far more obvious and conscious and there's a big need to clean up any any all leftover issues from Uranus Opposition and also Chiron Return! Tall order.

Chiron functions exceedingly well outside of linear 3D time (Saturn) and He effortlessly deposits us out past the Rings, the limits of physical reality. (Personally I prefer The Big Dark Dudes Hula Hoops over Rings but....) I think the 'Uranus Future' mentioned, is referring to Uranus Return at 84 and how incredible this is, how so often it's when many break free and finally physically leave Earth (Saturn's realm) completely. Death of the mortal self, the Chiron archetype playing itself out. The big scary thing most folks are terrified of. So I'm guessing that if, IF we deal with our Chiron wounds, our having wounded others, and then try to heal the whole mess - we reach some new level of clearness where we literally carry higher energies (Uranus and others possibly) in our physical (Saturn) structural bodies.......we no longer carry within us fear of our mortal deaths. Chiron's resolved His painful situation.

Lapis ~

Hi! I was hoping you'd join in. I'm having a Mercury rx moment. I am confused about the CR. Can you clarify - is it 3-D, emotional or spiritual/transformational, a mixture, or all of the above? Maybe it can be many things to many people. Some associate illness or disease with their CR, and I thought earlier (in another thread) you were only talking about issues in which there may be regrets or guilt trips and needing to get rid of that kind of baggage. Clow doesn't talk at all about physical 3-D things in relation to Chiron from what I've seen. In my mind I was relating 3-D things to Saturn only, so was thinking that if a person was evolved in a Chironic way, that there would be no need to mention Saturnian 3-D issues as the person would be above or have evolved beyond those types of problems, would automatically "take care of business" so to speak.

~ AM

Amazon1963

08-14-2005, 01:45 AM

May I butt in? New at reading/understanding charts here. I have just become aware that I even had a Chiron in my chart. So, looked up all interpretations for it in the 3rd house, where mine is placed. Pretty much summed up as follows:

Chiron in the Third House
If you don't have any brothers or sisters, you may experience this Chiron placement as a lack, a hole in your life. If you do, then there could be continual problems with at least one sibling. This is a good placement for a voice coach or speech therapist. It is likely that you will be able to teach others to speak better than you do. This placement tends to increase the chance of communication problems of one sort or another. No, it does not guarantee a speech defect. Instead, there could be problems with making oneself understood. In some cases, this could indicate that one wasn't listened to as a child. That could trigger a lifelong quest to "make others listen to me." However, no matter how much they do, there is frequently a feeling that "they are still not listening." The problem is that no matter how much they listen to you now, it doesn't get rid of the pain you felt in childhood when they didn't. Mercury/Chiron stress aspects are likely to produce the same result. Recognizing this is a first step to leaving the pain behind.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?nhor=1&nho2=2&btyp=24&mth=gw&hsy=&zod=&node=-Yn&sday=14&smon=8&syr=2005&rs=&orbp=&cid=or1filewvmrJb-u1079284496&lang=e&gm=a1&ast=

I did stutter as a child and the condition was due to psychological issues not biological. I have been aware in the past where I felt as though I wasnt being 'heard', either by parents or authority figures. Maturity and wisdom has taught me however, that most 'hear' what you have to say if its spoken with confidence and in terms they can relate to or understand. In fact, I've learned they 'hear' you just fine, they just dont want to 'hear' what you have to say.

I never really considered any of this a 'wound' but it has held me back in some respects, ie, low self confidence in speaking. Through learning about myself and overall improvement in 'how' I communicate verbally and with body language has resolved most of the Chiron aspect in my natal house as it pertains to the above interpretation.

Also, the part about siblings, I have a younger sibling. We are night and day, total polar opposites. This along with family dynamics issues forged a distance in our emotional relationship. I have found it could be a continual problem but I simply refuse to participate in it. Keep at a distance and dont share any of my personal concerns, its not right but its peaceful. She and I have agreed to disagree on most subjects (she has issues getting along with most people) and get along when it comes to problem solving within the family structure. That works for us.

I found your messages about Chiron interesting, even though I dont comprehend half of what is being discussed. I just wanted to share what I have learned and how I have found some 'healing'.

Thanks for 'hearing' me!

Amazon1963

Lapis

08-15-2005, 02:57 AM

Amazon1963,

Hearing you loud and clear, and communicated very well. I think from what you shared, you've described some Chiron in 3 issues very well. It also sounds like you've done some major healing work too. Well done!

What I find interesting is how we hide, bury, and become blind to many of the 'wounds' we all carry around in us. Sometimes its harder rediscovering, excavating some of them than it is then to deal/heal them! Because of this we often live much of our lives being profoundly affected and in many cases, controlled by these Chironic type of wounds unknowingly. And because of this we then in turn wound others (in varying ways) and the cycle goes on and on until we get wise enough to dig deeper in ourselves. It sounds like you were able to do this with some of your 3rd house issues.

Lapis

08-15-2005, 03:54 AM

AquariusMoon,

Hi! I have' Mercury rx' ALL the time so I can relate :) To answer your question......IMO all of the above! Here's some Clow.

"At age 50, we are physically and mentally prepared for fusion with the spirit, the mysterious nonphysical realm of all that is. Up to age 30, when our Saturn Return occures, we are realizing the structural basis for life. At mid-life---Uranus Opposition---we mature the emotions. Then, at age 50, Chiron Return heralds the time for our full spiritual awakening."

"Chiron brings spirit into matter, and Chiron cycles rule the timing of spiritual enlightenment......."

"Astrologically, Chiron travels around the birth chart conjuncting every panet in the chart by age 50, and as it does so, a crisis over the issue of that planet always is very evident. Thus, during this time, Chiron has created a crisis about each significant planetary archetype, such as using power with Mars or expanding ourselves with Jupiter.Those archetypal processes have been successively transmuted, causing a much more spiritual outlook on life to gradually emerge......."

From Barbara Hand Clow's "Liquid Light of Sex: Kundalini, Astrology, and the Key Life Transitions"

Just last night I had another of my lifelong nightmares about being chased by some male stranger trying to kill me. This sorry archetypal **** has been going on for me since childhood and I am getting better with it! :wink: Point is that we're never finished and I feel we'll be 'healing' something for the rest of our lives. Especially now at the end of the Mayan Calendar and Age changes! With my 0 degrees Pisces ASC, the whole past patriarchal cycle with its less than warm and fuzzy feelings towards the female, is something I've been trying to fix/heal within myself evidently. Hence the recurring nightmares. I hope this post makes a bit more sense about Chiron, his Return and even past it.

[Edited part of quote from B.Hand's article. Only 100 words are accepted. copy right breach otherwise.mod.]

AMANDRIA

08-17-2005, 05:36 AM

loved the note, I am glad you mentioned the saturn opp all my natal planets in 11th house, this alone I am not sure what to expect. Add in that chiron will be crossing over these same points....heck Neptune is currently transiting my 11th house as well....what it all means? I will be darned if I understand with Neptune I read words, like fantasy, spiritualism, compassion and sometimes martyr, escapism, drugs etc. throw in the chiron with saturn opposition and it going over merc, ven, sun...I am lost, lol. Still to understand it, and to have a plan on making the best of it is my ultimate goal.

baker

08-17-2005, 03:56 PM

Lapis wrote:

"At Chiron Return, we are prone to illness and bitterness if at Uranus Oppostion we have not cleared our emotional bodies of anger and frustration over early wounding. But if we have had a successful resolution of mid-life crisis, our bodies will have sufficient transformative kundalini energy to help us face the greater and deeper challenges of emotional clearing during our forties....."

i]"For about a year and a half around age 50, the opportunity to break the Promethean chains and choose Chiron's solution is present, even for those who did not resolve their mid-life crisis. But opting for healing means being brutally honest with ourselves. We must journey into the underworld and face the inner demons of fear if we are to break the chains and face eventual death......."

EXACTLY!!!

Thanks for posting that, and and all info is appreciated.

I, unfortunately, didn't learn so well and at my Chiron Return brought cancer, don't worry I'm okay, and so now I KNOW why I can now, in hindsight, track it all back, now I see what all those transiting planetary "hits" were about, and now am recovering not only physically, but in every way possible, but particularly in the evolution of my soul, and it's so much better now. I finally figured out, "they" didn't know any better, "they" that hurt me were people no one could do anything about, "they" had their own baggage that unloaded onto me. It wasn't about me, it was about them, their problems. And now they are not my problem. I had to do this so I don't get sick again. It's that simple.

Draco

08-22-2005, 01:12 AM

Im 23, so according to popular opinion on this thread, my youth does not qualify me to experience and understand Chirons energy. Excuse me?

Surely if Chiron is a valid planetary energy having enough significance to be included in the natal chart then its effects should be as obvious and archetypal as every other heavenly sphere out there, to everyone!. I am tired of hearing of Chiron as the 'rainbow bridge' between Saturn and Uranus. To me this sounds like a cop out, because astrologers are at a loss to explain its realm of symbolism when we already have the full spectrum of archetypes, so they just think, ''I know! Chiron is a cross between Saturn and Uranus, because it comes in between them!'' Sorry. I don't buy that. This is like saying a person is a hermaphrodite, just because he is standing between a man and a woman. Also, it makes a mess of astrological symbolism, because we already have our mythological Chiron in astrology and that is Sagittarius the centaur, whose symbolic image is in fact this very same Chiron of Greek myth. So Chiron is already there in our symbolism, why mess things up? Please don't say ''oh well thats because Chiron is the ruler of Sagittarius'' No. Jupiter is, always was, always will be. There are no co-rulers, at all! The beautiful symmetry and harmonious balance of planetary rulership across the zodiac so poetically crafted by the ancients has already been ruined, by throwing the outer planets about here and there, wherever the slightest whiff of symbolic correspondence seemed to be coming from at the time. All interpretation of Chiron based upon his mythological attributes, would be better applied to Sagittarius, not to some spare hunk of rock whizzing around the solar system, like so many other spare bits of rock with names like Hercules, BettySmith and DXP87-09. Okay, so Chiron is meant to have extra credence because it is hard to classify, and it's in league with the big ten because its not an asteroid they say, its a planet-oid. Wrong! It is a haemorrh-oid, on the **** of astrology! We are astrologers not astronomers. We do not need to try and reinvent archetypes which are better represented by other planets in the chart every time an astronomer discovers yet another big lump of rock out there. New ones are found every day. So what? Leave them to it, let them do thier work and we'll do ours. There is nothing else to be added to our art. Nothing. I think that astrologers panic when a large body is found in the Solar System, feeling that if is not given symbolic weight quickly, then the whole subject of astrology is invalidated. They fear that suddenly it must mean that everything is just rocks, debris and gases and astrology is quickly devalued and meaningless. This is not right, because the influences of the traditional planets have been observed, felt and recorded by sages of old across vast milleniums of our history, and we can trust them because they lived so much closer to nature than we could ever imagine today, and observed the skies as often as we observe TV and computer screens. They observed that certain conditions of Mars related to the outbreak of wars, certain conditions of Saturn brought vermin and plagues. They knew what they were talking about, they saw, they experienced and recorded, passing thier wisdom onto us, which we are using irresponsibly if we are interpreting things into the chart without any good and logical reason. In fact the influence of the outer planets is questionable, however, they are certainly proper planets, so I'm willing to stretch to this, and thier influence seems valid as they have been observed for some time, except Pluto, which hasnt even been around the zodiac yet since discovery. You see the outer planets are enough for us to puzzle over without further complications. There are even astrologers who do not consider the outer planets, and although I do not do this but perhaps should, I respect those that do, because they know what astrology is really about. The other day I posted the question ''What does Chiron mean in my chart?'' I've had loads of views but no response. Why? Because nobody knows. If Id have asked the same question of Venus or Jupiter I'd have had half a dozen replies by now. I must sound like a terrible skeptic to you Chiron enthusiasts, but I say all this because I want you to give me as many reasons to accept Chiron as I have given you not to. I want to believe! I just need some serious persuading.

Astrology is in a mess. No wonder we aren't taken seriously. As astrologers we are artists, councillers, psychologists and poets, spiritual guides even, but sorry, we're not scientists in the true sense of the word. So leave the astronomers to thier asteroids and comets, and let's get on with our tradition, trust what we know about the traditional planets and take the outer planets with a pinch of salt. As I said I must sound horribly skeptical, but i just want to keep our art neat, harmonious and precise. Lets not just throw allsorts into the pot willy-nilly with total disregard for a system so harmoniously cross corresponding and so lovingly assembled across thousands of years. Yes, okay, I have posted questions in the forum asking about my Chiron, and I would still be very interested to see how people respond, regardless of my current skepticism. Maybe what I am hoping for is for an insight into my Chiron which I feel an unmistakeable resonance with, as I do with all my other planets, then I will accept Chiron and welcome him into the fold.

I have Chiron retrograde in Taurus in the 2nd (Placidus) in exact opposition to Mars/Scorpio/8th with the added boost of Uranus on Sagittarius' 1st degree conjunct Mars. No one seems to be able to describe what this signifies for me and I haven't a clue, though my interpretative abilities are usually quite sharp. As I say, I want to believe, at this point, I just can't seem to. Before someone mentions it, yes, I know my motto is, 'believing is seeing', so maybe if I believed in Chiron I would start to notice his influence. Hmm........

Out of interest, supposing that the Chiron influence is in fact valid, what does it mean in my chart as I have described?

Give me a reason to believe!

Regards,
Draco :wink:

08-22-2005, 03:08 AM

I'm a greenhorn when it comes to interpreting charts, and my Chiron returned last autumn/winter
Natally, Chiron in 12 H ( that's all about how I tend to "lock myself away" -- right?)
at 7 deg Sagittarius

What happened? You would be amazed....I wandered from place to place, housesitting in beautiful homes in the beautiful pacific northwest, fires in the fireplaces and a cedar sauna (VESTA) and when my car broke down, it limped like an old, beat-up horse all the way to the ferry parking lot, where I asked it to start one last time when it came time to drive onto the ferry, and then it took me as far as it could go, whereupon I was towed for free to the car mechanic, who sold me a volvo for $1000, which was my last cash. So I bought it.

And how will I prepare for Saturn return? Since the Chiron return I've been doing some home health care and taking care of watering other people's gardens and loving other people's animals.....in the beautiful pacific northwest and I feel like it's time to get stabilized!

Only now, as is my recurring pattern, I approach September penniless, homeless, jobless.

Talk about Chiron in 12th H!

How's this for a psychological wound that I need to heal? Chiron's great as a teacher who hands us lessons on a silver platter......so we can see the pattern and stop repeating it, but obviously I'm a slow learner. :oops:

Help me! Goddess, please.....if there is any guru wisdom to be gleaned from the icky, horsey, wounded son-of-a-goddess Chiron, I bet it depends on everything else in my chart, including the very important Vesta and June, Ceres and Dark Moon Lillith...

but with
Saturn return immanent in 8th House (Leo) this is nothing to be fooling around with....

Any suggestions....?......or just hold tight because even if I'm not ready,
it is time and I am glad to be alive. Here goes...

C1

Anonymous

08-22-2005, 01:09 PM

Amazon1963

08-22-2005, 09:24 PM

Hi Draco,

This is in reply to your post asking for evidence. I am 42 and do I ever wish I had known then, (meaning when I was 23 yrs old) what I know now about myself from just a simple interpretation of my natal chart; I wonder if I would have had the wisdom or foresight to use any of the info?

I'm not going to try to convince you of Chiron or its effect on your chart. LOL, I'm still trying to figure out which direction the planets are moving in transit in my own chart much less any one else's chart.

As I stated in my post on this topic, I just shared what I thought Chiron meant in my chart and how I handled the challenge of the aspect (note: this was after I even knew there was a Chiron). Also, I believe TC Wilson gave his own opinion on Chiron and how he doesnt use it and finds the conventional base system of planets commonly used is a very good way to discover one's self natally and to help others with the same.

I was just curious and went looking is all. Here are some sites I found and used for my own interpretation. I realize you are keenly interested in the mysteries of your chart and others. I hope they help if you havent found them already yourself.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/gjdemontfort/Chiron.htm

http://www.cafeastrology.com/chiron.html

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/Chiron21.5.html

I reread a lot of the discussion, and I think the intent was to discuss the Chiron transit at age 50 and wasnt meant to infer that your Chiron at your age was unimportant. Maybe, you are fortunate with Chiron Rx? Might be that you have already handled your 'wound' thus, its not crucial? I dont know the answer.

It did please me though to see the strength and passion of your challenge to the Chiron question. My best to you in your endeavors.

Amazon1963

AMANDRIA

08-24-2005, 08:18 PM

amazon I am posting what I read on the website, it is near everything you mentioned about chiron in your third.

Chiron in the 3rd house: If you don't have any brothers or sisters, you may experience this Chiron placement as a lack, a hole in your life. If you do, then there could be continual problems with at least one sibling. This is a good placement for a voice coach or speech therapist. It is likely that you will be able to teach others to speak better than you do. This placement tends to increase the chance of communication problems of one sort or another. No, it does not guarantee a speech defect. Instead, there could be problems with making oneself understood. In some cases, this could indicate that one wasn't listened to as a child. That could trigger a lifelong quest to "make others listen to me." However, no matter how much they do, there is frequently a feeling that "they are still not listening." The problem is that no matter how much they listen to you now, it doesn't get rid of the pain you felt in childhood when they didn't. Mercury/Chiron stress aspects are likely to produce the same result. Recognizing this is a first step to leaving the pain behind.

Amazon1963

08-24-2005, 10:06 PM

Amandria,

Thanks for reading my post and yes, that is precisely the paragraph that I found on six different internet sites. It would have been a better post if I had cited my source, but since its the same paragraph on multiple sites and listed without credit to the author, I couldnt give credit where it was due.

As I stated before, I didnt even know that I had a Chiron in my chart or that it even existed. It was interesting following this thread on the discussion. I still dont really view my Chiron aspect as a 'wound' though. But, after having read more on the topic I could see where I had in many ways internalized the 'wound' and also how I can easily wound others.

However, I still dont really see my Chiron placement as the true 'wound' of my life. I have experienced far worse and it took far more strength to overcome those wounds than say, stuttering or even feeling as though I wasnt being heard, or even my relationship with my sibling. Perhaps, overcoming the 'wound' was my first lesson in overcoming many other 'wounds'.

Also came across some statements on various research on Chiron and how many astrologers dont use it because there is enough within the chart to confirm a Chiron interpretation. Surely in this age of information and communication there will be much more research and opinions on the subject of Chiron interpretation to become available. Certainly has provided a great discussion in this forum.

For my own use and simple attempts at understanding, I will continue to view it as not a whole but a part of a whole chart. Sort of like observing a human arm, you cant really see the whole person just by looking at their arm. It is the sum of the parts that make up the whole.

Amazon1963

Lapis

08-26-2005, 09:50 PM

Due to Radu's generosity on another thread I discovered some great info this morning. I did a search on the new to me term "Shaumbra" to see what more I could find and this one channeling turned up. It had IMO some great higher level insights about Chiron. Chiron and humanity and how we are and oftentimes aren't dealing with this new archetypal energy/consciousness.

This was a long and involved channeled talk from Nov. 1, 2003!!! but worthy of a mention here I feel. It sheds some spiritual light on Chiron and His energies in our lives. I'll quote only a small section of it but also add the link to the whole lecture. It covers a lot of data mostly about the astrological 'Harmonic Convergence' back then and some esoteric type wisdom about how the planets positioned themselves in the Star of David geometric shape. Very symbolic and powerful.

"There is an interesting force or influence in the alignment that takes place. There is one of the elements, one of the planets, that is in there that is causing some fear. It is causing some pain and some sadness. Some of you are truly feeling it right now.

It is the energy of Chiron, the Wounded Warrior. The victim. The warrior who has guilt of what he has done. The wounds, the karma, and the rememberance of the past. So, the Wounded Warrior has come in right now to be part of this Star of David to say, "Are you ready to release the wounds?" Because that is what keeps the two halves from coming back together. That is what is keeping the union of the male and female from happening - is the Wounded Warrior, Chiron. That is what is keeping the seperation of heaven and Earth - Chiron."

Please remember that I took that out of the middle of a long lecture and there's much more involved that needs to also be read to get all of it.

http://crimsoncircle.com/channelseries/newenergy/04newenergy11-03.htm

Waterbearer50

08-27-2005, 04:01 PM

Draco,
That was a great post! I also approach all new things with a healthy skepticism, and an open mind, I recently started relearning Astrology and on a forum learned of Chiron.(thank you Aquarius Moon and Lapis :) ). When I saw where Chiron was in my chart,the aspects it made, and a major transit on it , it fit and all came together like it was the missing link. It validated experiences and feelings that I could"nt really ascribe to more traditional factors. So for myself I had to say that Chiron was there and hard to ignore,and I would look for it in others charts.
When I looked at your chart in response to your post for "help" Chiron opp. your Mars/Uranus hit me right in the eye and I responded to you with that reading. I wanted to see your response, first to see if this was your experience and second to gauge more of Chirons' validity.
I believe that Chiron has a place but only when it has a siginfiacant place in a chart. Mine is exactly on my Sun/Moon midpoint .

(Amarinda- I have also have Chiron 3H and ditto.)

Others on this forum have either Sun or Moon conj. Chiron. etc...
If we all can relate our experiences here we can learn more about Chiron and make and decide. Iss'nt that how the astrologers of old did it?
A forum like this is a great place to get together and really share and learn what reall works.
Would'nt age be relative in understanding a chart? You have Chiron
natally making a strong aspect ,so yes you can understand this,but being 23 you could only imagine what your Saturn return could be like. My daughter is 12 and has Uranus transit 1H right now,is'nt her experience of this different now then say at 30? It's all relative.
You have a sharp mind and intelligence, keep applying these to Astrology and help us to straighten out the mess.

WB50

AquariusMoon

08-27-2005, 06:30 PM

Aquarius Moon ~ Hi! Do you think you can provide the link you sent to the original poster here, please :wink: Thanks so much :)

I agree, I keep looking for information on Chiron transits and what I've found, brings me no true satisfaction. So, whatever else I can learn from others, I'd truly welcome.

Hi ~ Sorry for getting back to you so late. As it turns out, I can't send it to you because you're a guest and don't have a PM, and I can't post the link here...

Below is a different link. It is a simple article on the different stations of Chiron through one's chart. It's not an esoteric article, more mundane, dealing with the woundedness issue and some Chiron in synastry.

http://www.azastrologers.org/Articles/BlaschkeChironCycle.pdf

Lapis

09-12-2005, 05:10 AM

By following my nose I found some great articles about Chiron. Waterbearer50 you had a lot to do with my finding this now....thanks.

"........Perhaps Joyce Mason has hit closest to home in the rulership debate with her Sector Rulership theory. This theory posits that Chiron rules the entire SECTOR of the zodiac from Virgo to Sagittarius. In other words, it rules a process that begins with Virgo, where we become aware of our wound and first embark on the healing quest; proceeds to Libra, where we seek balance and healing, often through consulting an Other; moves through Scorpio, where we pass through the fires of transformation in the process of healing; and finishes with Sagittarius, where we have come through the other end, somewhat older, wiser, more philosophical, and prepared to impart our wisdom to others......."

"......Similarly, astrology is a very left-brained modality and one that may even tend to exacerbate the split between mind and body. Through astrology, we are constantly seeking reasons, wanting to KNOW what may happen in the future, wanting to understand WHY something happened in the past, endlessly analyzing masses of data, and engaging in empirical research. I would therefore suggest that this type of astrology may work better on the Ego or Mental levels, while a Chironic/Centauric astrology needs to embrace a more Humanistic or holistic approach. This is not to make a judgement about the worthiness of any particular approach to either psychology or astrology......"

Personally I can really relate to the first paragraph right at this moment as some of you 'Others' here know! :wink: Here's the link to this article so you can read the whole thing in sequence. Good stuff.

www.aplaceinspace.net/Pages/ExpandingChiron.html

09-12-2005, 05:47 AM

***!
Good catch on Chiron, Lapis, with thanks to WB50...
My chiron natally is 7 degrees Sagittarius, in 12th H
just above the ASC --- 20 degrees Sagittarius --- so
very interesting.
C1

Lapis

11-10-2005, 01:13 AM

I wanted to share a couple of articles I found recently on Chiron.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/gjdemontfort/Chiron.htm

http://accessnewage.com/articles/astro/efrchiau.htm

Lapis

12-01-2005, 12:00 AM

I found a really good article by Eric Francis called "Bridge to the Core". He's new to me but I really like the way he thinks and writes, and this particular article is very good. It's long but well worth the time and energy reading it all. Its a great astrological review of what humanity has gone through recently, and hints at what lies in our near futures. He's stressing the transformational attributes of transiting Chiron in Aquarius, which starts (with no retrogrades back into Capricorn) in just a few weeks.

http://planetwavesweekly.com/twdco99%7E/open/core.html

12-01-2005, 07:10 PM

:) Hello Lapis,
You have been doing research and bringing back gems!

Thank you for this beautiful Chiron/bridge article
bringing together so much astrological knowledge, from
transits of asteroids to GC/Mayan Calendar
....wonderful!

Just last evening I was reading a one-year-old issue of
The Mountain Astrologer and Bruce Scofield had
a long article about the Mayan Long Count...but the article
in the "Mercury Direct" section by Henny Ruckert and Suzanne DUARTE
"POWER AND THE COLLECTIVE (Pluto in Leo - We get what we need)"
was wonderful. I'll write to see if I have permission to
copy and post it here in the Pluto transit topic.

C1

Lapis

12-01-2005, 11:42 PM

C1,

Ooooooo please do! It sounds like a great article and timely with 2006 & 2007 zooming towards us faster than ever. Literally! :wink:

Kite

12-02-2005, 01:54 AM

Lapis - of course you discover Eric...one of my favorites for past few years.

C1 - your Chiron is in the same degree as my Saturn and your Asc is within minutes of my sun. We must pay attention.

Me - I have Chiron at 8 degrees Aquarius conjunct my Asc at 14 and a bunch of other asteroids including Amor at 14, Pholus at 5 etc. I'm not sure what I'm looking forward to more..Chiron's return, losing Neptune on my Asc, Pluto moving off my Sun and into the 11th house, Uranus moving off it's square to Saturn and opp to Pluto, Saturn moving off Uranus conjunction or Chiron opposing my Uranus before the return.

While this outer planet transit stew continues to crock, I will be thankful for having the opportunity to report on it while we walk the Violet Ray into 2012.

Lapis

12-02-2005, 02:31 AM

Rock On Kite! :wink: Isn't it all getting to the point where you just have to sit down and laugh? I mean these transits so many of us are going through are beyond belief! They're like how 'time' is moving now.....all squished into one giant as you said 'stew' where we're dealing with more than we're even conscious of sometimes!!! :lol: Yes I finally discover the people and places I'm supposed to only when I'm supposed to. I do like Eric a lot from what little I've read so far. I like the way he sees.

Didn't you mention elsewhere that your Pluto is 0 Virgo? or am I lost yet again? And don't you also have Pisces ASC........I just started to write Pisces ADD :lol: ........speak for yourself Lapis!!!

I ask because my ASC is 0 Pisces and I liked your "We must pay attention" to C1. I think there's numerous connections between many of us here. We probably trained together at Mystery Schools in long ago past lives, here together again to put it all into practice at this powerful time of change and transformation.

Kite

12-02-2005, 02:50 AM

Lapis - My Asc is 14 Aquarius and I have Pluto at 0 Virgo.

I'M sure there are more connections than we can count or fathom..and yes I think you were in the back row in that Egypt class on Thoth and Mercury...I'm Mercury at 5 Cap..which I'm sure plays somewhere in your light show.

12-02-2005, 06:21 PM

< 8) >The lightsound is getting strong here!
Kite was at the head of the class: Harmonics, The Music of the Spheres (remember?)

(I can almost hear the jazz coming from
your computer keyboard, kite!)
:lol:

Seriously, Lapis and Kite, I am so fortunate that life's
river took a wild turn a year ago and I didn't
enroll in a 2-year "sustainable business" MBA program....

I would not have had any time to do my MBA homework,
because I'm really deeply into the research and work here....

I'll post the article on Pluto in Leo soon I hope, Lapis! Truly
looking forward to sharing it with you and all here...

Kite---

....your message
"pay attention" ....those exact words
came up 9 years ago really strong....and now
again!

It clearly applies to all of us here.

I'm intrigued by the connection of Chiron in my 12th house
at 7 degrees Sagittarius
and your Saturn, Kite...

and your sun and my ASC, not to mention all the other
amazing transits you and all of us have going on now...we're jammin'!!

The importance of the asteroids shifting signs and
lighting up the mysterious
zero degrees in our charts....that's something and
I'm loving the links you shared, Lapis.

PRESENTE
C1

Anonymous

12-02-2005, 06:34 PM

Kite

12-02-2005, 06:43 PM

Jazz is my thing C1 - not sure where you picked that up. I have framed portraits of Thelonius Monk, Miles Davis and John Coltrane hanging on the wall in my office. About 2000 of the 3,000 songs on my iPod are jazz!

Let's keep the improv going cats!

Kite

12-02-2005, 07:13 PM

Boy am I dumb..I guess my signature block gave me away 8) ...sheez.

12-03-2005, 07:05 PM

:) Kite,
blues
music of African Americans
evolved into jazz

....I always wondered, "How is jazz created?" and....
"How does one 'figure out' Astrology?"

....with feelings and heart and being in the moment and
really perfecting an instrument....and creating new musical forms.

Anyway, Baker posted an Eric Francis link in another thread,
which incorporates asteroids, so I'll see you there!
(Was it "Centaurs and the GC" above)?

You are already familiar with Eric, who's blowing me away!
It's intense and
I'm following you....

still "catching up with myself"
(Posting the same riff twice in a row here...and yeah,
I caught your signature block :lol: ....
brilliant, hey?)

Flying...
C1

Kite

12-03-2005, 07:14 PM

Groooovy man 8)

Ana

12-18-2005, 10:44 AM

Hey,

I`m having my Saturn (conj. ASC) return in H12, Chiron square natal Chiron (H9) and natal Venus (H3).
This Chiron brought me to the bottom as I never could imagine I could fall so deep. Everything I worked on until now, my lovelife (recently separated from fiancee), no job, in feud with family, dissapointments from friends....
Will I have the chance to rebuild it again, or Chiron takes it all away for good? Any word of comfort?

Lapis

12-18-2005, 10:22 PM

Ana,

Sorry to hear that you're having such a hard time. Change is usually a big messy pain for most of us no matter what our age. I take it that you're 29ish now?

From what you said it sounds more like your Saturn Return that's causing all the 'problems' more so than just a Chiron square.......although that's a tuff one too. Saturn Return is one of the big life changing, coming of age, maturing, growing up transits. Saturn has gone through the "12 Labors" so to speak and Returns to his natal location. With this happening in your 12th House conjunct your ASC, it probably does seem to you that your whole world is caving in on you! It isn't OK........just looks and feels like it now.

This probably isn't what you wanted to hear but if these different things are smashing your 'life/reality' all to hell, then you should take a brutally honest inventory of these people, places, beliefs of yours, expectations, fears, fears, fears, etc. to see what you need to let go of. With Saturn in your 12th I'd guess that there's layers and layers of this peeling away that your Saturn Return is going to help you through now. Be brave and do this now, because if you ignore or surpress (or any of those more negative 12th house traits) the things that Saturn is trying to bring up to the conscious to be healed, changed and transmuted, the 2nd Saturn Return in your late 50's will be so much worse!!! :shock:

"At each Saturn Return, we experience the maximum pressure to conquer the weakness in ourselves that is blocking growth; we have the opportunity to pierce the resistance that is keeping us from breaking through into our greatest potential evolution." Barbara Hand Clow - "Liquid Light of Sex: Kundalini, Astrology, and the Key Life Transitions"

Like I said, be brave and face this scary 12th House-cleaning that Saturn's doing for your greater good now and release what needs to be released. Love what needs to be loved and mainly that's YOU! This will ease up the sooner you confront what you must and this Saturn Return and Chiron square will literally shove you into the next new phase of your life-learning with that 12th House much less heavy and cluttered. :wink: Think Alchemy! You're in our thoughts and hearts.

Ana

12-25-2005, 01:05 PM

Dear Lapis,

thank you for your kind words. Yes, you guessed right, I am 29 now, and I`ve heard that Saturn Return could bring the rough times, but couldn`t imagine it could be like this. It is interesting that I`ve seen my friends going through SR with less turbulence than me, some of them got married, some of them became parents, moved abroad etc., so it is really individual metter for everyone. That is why I was so sure that Chiron is making me the hard times.
Saturn is retrograde now, I am expecting it to hit my natural in june, july, so I think I will just try to be patient as you`ve said, it will pass.

Have you already been through SR or just preparing for The Big Theacher coming back?

Thanx again for support, I needed it :)

Lapis

12-25-2005, 08:59 PM

Ana,

Hi, good to see you again. I just had my birthday 2 days ago and I'm getting closer to my second Saturn Return in a few more years. Wasn't that cute how I basically said that I'm getting old! :lol:

Usually during these transits the planet, in this case Saturn, will make what we call "Hits" (easy way of saying EXACT conjunctions to the natal degree) 3 times. 3 hits to Saturn's natal degree. The first "hit" is the direct motion one that activates the whole Initiation process aka Transit. The second "hit" will be when the planet retrogrades back over your exact natal Saturn degree and this phase of the transit period gives the person the time to go inward, reflect, seriously think about what you're going through and all the things that need to be changed. Then, lastly is the third "hit", which is Saturn going direct AGAIN and moving across (usually for the last time in this transit/Initiation period) your natal Saturn degree. This is the time when we should really go for it and try to learn, understand, change, grow, release etc. etc. as much as we can because this is the last phase of the great transformational energy of the Saturn Return transit/Initiation.

As you can see this is a process that we all go through with 3 (sometimes more) phases (the 3 hits) of learning and change. The first hit usually feels like just that.....a big painful and scary HIT by some unseen force! If we wisely use the second and third hits, we'll finish the life altering transit/Initiation as different people and that's the whole point really. :wink: Of course some of us deal with much more than some people do during these different major life transits or Initiations as I like to call them. Why? Because in some incarnations our Higher Selves gives 'us' the opportunity to resolve big huge issues and make tremendous advancements. In other incarnations we focus on different issues. With Saturn in your 12th house conjunct your ASC, I'd say that you're attempting to resolve big huge issues in this lifetime. Rock on!

So please don't be passive or patient and just hope it all will go away soon. It will go away soon BUT, Saturn demands much more from us. Like I said, its easier to deal with Saturn's demands of growth and change now at 29-31 than it will be trying to survive so many ignored Saturn issues at 59-61!!! Like I said earlier, be brave now and go through it as best as you can so you don't get your butt seriously kicked at age 59-61 when it could cause serious health problems etc. This mini lecture was aimed at myself too Ana! Be well, be powerful, get free by facing Saturn now. http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5325/xmasemo8xt.gif

cara4art

01-05-2006, 11:17 PM

How important is this tr. Chiron square Chiron for me? I have it currently at the very end of my 11th house(Capricorn) squaring my natal Chiron Rx in 8th(Scorpio). I just found out that this has basically been in effect since last March(including the retrogradation period). Along with this I have tr. Saturn having made its first pass over its natal position in 6th(2nd Saturn return in Leo, as I am 58). Can I expect bad health??? My health is currently good because I have paid attention to it all these years and done very hard work with shamanic healing over the past two.
Thanks!

AquariusMoon

03-06-2007, 12:19 AM

Thinking of you, Amandria, if you're still around. Uranus has now started conjuncting your Chiron. What is happening?