Was September 11th Staged? [Archive] - Astrologers' Community

jenluvsblackcat

07-24-2006, 11:58 PM

Arian Maverick,

As an American, you should be concerned that our government is being truthful. The very spirit that causes us to question our leaders is what led the wealthy white men of the early colonies to wage war against mother England. Just from my intuition, I would say that the late ascendant in your chart could be pointing at the possiblilty that the US let 9/11 happen, just as they let Pearl Harbor happen. Remember that? We had ample warning that the Japanese were about to attack that naval base.
Speaking in 9/11 terms, there were reports that Al-Queida was plotting a major attack on a US city. If you've ever seen Michael Moore's "Farenheight 9/11," you'll see what I'm talking about. For some silly, unknown reason our government let this happen.
As far as staging and planning it, no. But letting the "chips fall where they may," YES.

Look how our government handled the people devastated by Katrina! It makes our country look like a bunch of bumbling, mono-linguistic, beer guzzling, baseball watching, macho, racist, homophobic rejects.

Moreover, I would say 9/11 happened because we let it happen with our own bloated stupidity. I feel remorse for everyone who perished in the 9/11 attacks, and the soldiers who are dying every hour of every day.

PS- I think you'll find more scandal info if you investigate the pentagon attack on 9/11.

Summery Joy

07-25-2006, 12:20 AM

Good question. I think an event chart of the actual tragedy should be studied alongside this horary chart.

Arian Maverick

07-25-2006, 12:44 AM

I think an event chart of the actual tragedy should be studied alongside this horary chart.

Great idea, sorehearted! ;)

I have created a new thread titled September 11, 2001 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16477#post16477) in the Mundane Astrology Board (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8)...

Arian Maverick

Radu

07-25-2006, 01:31 AM

I think the late degree of the ASC means that you already made up your mind about this topic and wouldn't actually expect an answer from the chart.

Was September 11th Staged By the US Government? A clear Yea:

The way this question was asked, I'd assign to the event itself the 1st house - ASC in Sagittarius (=looks like a foreign attack on the US) conjunct with Pluto on the dark side of the ASC (=terrorists).
But Saturn, MC almutem (=US government) separates from a square with Jupiter (the event) so the direct relationship is clear.

Interestingly, Saturn is in detriment in the 8th house, disposed by the 8th house ruler, the Sun. The government acted at the orders of a worldwide leading financial organization.
My approach on this is using the Sabian Symbols of the antiscia of the 8th house cusp (the financial organization): "Two cobblers working side by side at a table." This leads me to think at an organization that takes its name from a specific trade - the masonry.

Liatris

07-25-2006, 03:04 AM

Yes, there is SO much evidence pointing to it being so much more than "the bad guys" doing their thing.

Radu, speaking of Sabian Symbols, Caroline Casey, a radioshow host, found something in Vice President, Dick Cheney's chart. She found the associated Sabian Symbol. It read something like this - "The ventriloquist entertains the masses with his wooden dumby." The image is very funny to me.

Arian Maverick, You should feel more like a an upstanding citizen by pursuing the truth. There is nothing righteous (or even patriotic) about supporting a corrupt system. "Truth, justice ..." and all that.

Andonis

11-23-2006, 09:05 PM

I prefer to answer this being a 'rumor' question. Since 911 is not proven and there are lots of rumors about being staged.
So first thing first. ASC 27 Sag is on the edge of being non-radical question. But I will carry on.
So the querent is the ruler of Sag. Jupiter. Jupiter is in Scorpio. The quesited is a rumor so it is represented by the 3rd house ruler, the ruler of Pisces which is also Jupiter. Being the same one could choose to say yes its true, but I choose here to use Neptune the ruler of Pisces (which is in mutual reception with Uranus) so Neptune being strong in Pisces is trine with Jupiter, the answer is YES, it is staged, the rumor is true.

!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*

10-19-2007, 10:57 AM

According to The Houses: Temples in the Sky (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h1.html), one's home country is symbolized by the sign of the Ascendant--the first house cusp.

A Sagittarius Ascendant corresponds with one of two hypothosized Ascendants for the United States, yet I am concerned about the late degree rising...is this chart unfit for judgment?

Arian Maverick
From here ...this chart is fraught with misunderstanding ...

intercepted 1st house , retro Pluto @ ASC/12th

Almost like the "asking of the question" itself and the intent behind it .... (which would be a transit to the querent's chart) ....

This is a question only you can answer [smile] !!!!

tikana

10-19-2007, 11:52 AM

Well, Arian and Andonis..

everythign was staged. Landing on the Moon, Spacewalk, 911, the US govt staged tsunami of 2005, let's see, .com boom of the 1990s, earthqake of 1994 in LA was stage, the fact that it is 4:30 am and i am up is being staged by the US govt, ohh come on.. the US could have known something was up but i HIGHLY doubt that this was organized. Some things are fishy about 911 but as soona s there is something as big as 911 or .com crash, it is blamed on a conspiracy. 911 was pre-set from 1980s thanks to Reagan/soviet recklessness using Afganistan as a playground for their cold war games. Attack on the US soil was predicted. WTC was always a center of a target. Even during the consturction in 1970s, constructors were aware of a plane going into the building the only problme was we didnt have thos planes which hit WTC. the only possible speculation to back your "rumor" theory is ... the US govt needed a reason to get into afganistan/iraq and get to the oil fields and al-quaida.. Until the last minute no one had a clue what was going on.. YES FBI was on alert they were listening to increased chatter over something big to happen in the US..... it wasnt like "OHhh hey let's bomb Afganistan, there are women and children who are not allowed to wear normal clothes and listen to music or watch tv cause some radical a**holes are running the country **** In the US and the USSR bailed from afganistan, they left weapons behind, which gave a power to OBL and his cronies, who was fed up with SA kissing the US'butt and afganistan, which was powerless to deal with soviets on their own. it is not like a group of people just sat down and said "hey, GWBush, world is way too quiet.. USS Cole is terrorized but Yemen is nor really a hot spot to invade, so let's create some kind of hell in the US and blame it on OBL and al-quaida and invade iraq and see if we can take down iran on a long run.. soooo when is the best day to do this? ohh i know, 911. yeah !!! ready ? get set? GO! ohh i forgot on emore detail, make sure to tell the fighter pilots not to worry, if they will get to their planes in time, fine.. if not .. oh well. we need a new building instead of those 2 towers. """

Arian, we are facing far far more massive problem in Iraq atm. Turkey is about to invade iraq to bring down the Kurds, which are backed by the US. All hell will break loose if that is to happen ... With US congress about to pass Armenian genocide by the Ottoman Empire, making the US and turkish relations to grounding halt which will create problems with supplying the US army with weapons, people, food and oil. either weay we are getting *******.

good morning!
Tik

Sag Moon

10-19-2007, 01:06 PM

The pnly cover up is what occured afterward due to the US Gov't not wanting to take responsibility to why they did what they did.

There were many things they missed and they softened the blow of their incompetence.

The Bush admin is awful!

TIK
The US does not want the Kurds disrupted as that would not help.They are o our side.

tikana

10-19-2007, 01:28 PM

Sag .. dont get me started on this Bush admin argument.. in politics it is easy to blame on 1 person or 1 administration.. BUT middle east shenanigan has been going on since end of ww2. Thank England for that.

Okay so lets see .. like democrats *btw i am one of them*
had something to offer in 2004 vs "i have a plan!" *but hey Kerry wont say what it is***
Dems had no agenda no plan.. gay marriage and gun control were the issues.

there was a reason why things went down the way they did.. A. we need oil! B. US military spendings were halted thank Clinton for that. C. intelligence force was brought to its knees. Again thank Clinton. D. congress stopped Clinton from getting to OBL, thank republicans who were going after monica lewinsky affair. The intel had OBL within its radius. E. for the first time in 12 years there are new fighter jets were building and engeneered in the US soil F. The US supplied until earlier this year Iran with parts for their F-14s... On sept 18th,, Iran released its first F-class fighter jet, Azarakhsh, to be exact which is a lot alike F-5E/F Tiger II supersonic plane, YF-17 Cobra *another american plane, and a spin off from chinese Chengdu J-7 *russian technology*. Now, these bastards are building their own jets. So far they ahve 6 of them.. i am sure they are building more. This mess should have been stopped in 1970s not today. Pentagon is scrambling to get jet fighter engeneers on board. for the first time, pentagon is keeping taps on MIT students. Some are getting jobs with Pentagon before the actual graduation.

so if you guys think that this is just bush admin problem.. look again.. it all goes back to Reagan era.

regards
Tik

loonymoon

10-19-2007, 01:35 PM

everythign was staged. Landing on the Moon, Spacewalk, 911, the US govt staged tsunami of 2005, let's see, .com boom of the 1990s, earthqake of 1994 in LA was stage, the fact that it is 4:30 am and i am up is being staged by the US govt..
:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:

Well, I'm not an American and I find the Americans so... well, a bit paranoid, sometimes bordering on delusional when it comes to conspiracy theories. You just have too many of those to lend much credibility to any single theory. And you do like your Michael Moor's even if they don't always get all their facts right and are highly manipulative. What's disturbing about it is the willingness to be blind to real external threats when they do exist, sorta like, in natal astrology, having Pluto in the 12th house squaring the karma/fate North Node in muddled Pisces in the 3rd house of communication, information and thinking ;) - you seem to prefer not knowing about this Pluto. And this Pluto being, of all signs, in Sag (religion). Checking and criticizing your own government is great and absolutely necessary and in that you are a great role model, but it shouldn't be turned into willful blindness to other very realistic and very present elements.

It's also interesting that most of the people that are now claiming that the US government staged 911 or at least knew about it and did nothing are the same people that before 911 dismissed Al Qaeda and its threats and claimed that it's used for fear mongering and political manipulation. To these people Al Qaeda and radical revolutionary Islam were never a real threat to begin with, the only real threats in the world are the West and particularly the US, so it's only logical that after Al Qaeda succeeded in carrying out the most ambitious, extravagant and devastating single terror attack in history on US soil, they will continue in the same line and claim it wasn't really AQ who was behind it, as to them AQ still isn't a real threat, but the real culprits behind it are the US govt and financial elites which always were and still are the only real and eminent threats to the world. Well, either them or the Jews which are permanently guilty of everything :p

Well, I know nothing about horary astrology so I can't contribute anything, but I kinda count on it that other interpreters will argue the answer is no.

tikana

10-19-2007, 01:40 PM

Loony

i was being sarcastic.. trust me me being awake at 6:44 am is not US govt cover up or maybe it is some secret organization hired me to be up all night.. i dont buy 90% of all "rumors and cover up stories""

Personally, i cannot stand michael moore.

AQ is nothing but a puppet.. so is OBL. they are funded by someone more powerful.. personally, i bet whoever has to gain from all this is behind.. but it is crazy to imagine 1 group being fully funded by 2 people. There are other little cells like Heaven of Islam. Holy whatever i forgot ... All of them are funded by someone on a bigger scale... it is pretty insane.

btw stop with this "either them or the Jews which are permanently guilty of everything ".. i hate to break it to you but DO YOU KNOW how much money people have profited from 911. I personally know a few people who went out and bought and were drinking Krystal champaigne 24 bottles at midday of 9/11/2001 because 6 guys walked out for 900,000 dollars each! 3 others walked out with 2.5 million dollars. The 6 guys had 50 grand each.. 3 others had unlimited amount of money to gamble with the ....they bought oil/us dollar at the bottom price and sold it within 3 weeks..

Tik

Tik

loonymoon

10-19-2007, 02:32 PM

Tikana, I know you were being sarcastic, I thought your sarcasm was right on, that's what made me luagh. In the rest of my post I was referring to the other posters and to Americans in general, not you.

I don't think AQ is a puppet or that the entire net is financed by one single organization, state or person. There's a loose net of many radical Islamic groups all over the world that cooperate with each other and there are cells, active or dormant, in every continent - and they want power and an Islamic revolution, not everything is just about money. 911 was the most devastating terror attack carried out by radical Islamists, but certainly not the only one. There are Islamist terror attacks all over the world, not just in the West, but Westerners and the Western media don't highlight them and there's not enough public awareness, or they are attributed to local disputes such as in Thailand, the Philippines, Egypt and other places.

And to me it's funny that 911 is speculated to be a US government operation or a Zionist operation - anyone but the actual culprits. But I already gave up on it. Anyone can believe what they want, hopefully the price won't be too high until people will eventually awaken to reality rather than look away from the truth that is staring them in the face.

tikana

10-19-2007, 02:47 PM

whew

i thought you were taking me seriously

LOL

Americans experienced attack on the US soil during ww2 at Pearl Harbir prior to 9/11 so .. there are still rumors going on that Pearl Harbor was staged.. Actually, the rumor is that the US govt provoked Japan.

i think this goes to every country. Every country has a conspiracy theory on each event.

nothing new

Tik

Radu

10-19-2007, 03:42 PM

The easiest thing is to deny everything. I think there're lots of truths in the so-called underground or conspiracy theories, sometimes flawed by quantities of false information, in order to discredit them.

A good starting point true however is that the main stream media is under political and economical control and on sensitive issues we, as intelligent and independent thinkers, should always take whatever is said with spoonfulls of salt.

Astrology has this huge advantage over other systems of analysis that it can't be flawed. Planets are there and we may see typical patterns of mass media control and manipulation - such as Mercury opposite Pluto in the natal US chart.

In some other charts [cover-ups, false flag operations, media intoxication with lies] we see generous amounts of Lilith signature, which expose the truth. An astrologer cannot be fooled in such cases.

See these short articles:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/911-lie-exposed.php
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/war-pretexts.php
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/bbc-conspiracy.php
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/first-man-moon.php

Radu

tikana

10-19-2007, 08:43 PM

Radu

sigh
speechless.. i am not going to go over with you on these conspiracies but are you sure that you are not expressing xeastern bloc thinking? I am from that neighborhood.. i have heard it all.. Everythng was "conspiracy"
Chernobyl - americans did it to bring USSR to its knees
Russian submarine "kursk" sinking - american submarine bumped into Kursk and brought it down then went to scandinavia to be fixed . YES it was in newspapers with "full proof"
Gorbachev was bought by the west and put in charge of USSR to destoy USSR.. he was CIA secret agent
Pope John Paul 2nd was working with the west conspiring to put the end to Warsaw pac
Breaking up of Yugoslavia / Kosovo war was a conspiracy to prove to te world that Russia is still a power house ...
Hitler escaped Germany *conspiracy*
Elvis being alive conspiracy
Jim Morrison didnt really die in Paris

shrug
TIk
it is endless
Tik

Arian Maverick

10-19-2007, 09:10 PM

Dear all,

I did NOT originate this conspiracy, obviously, nor do I necessarily believe the WTC attacks were staged by the US government; I had simply watched a video several months ago that made me think.

It would be nice if I could state possibilities and ask questions without fear of being attacked on the forums for being "delusional" and "paranoid."

Neither do mass generalizations about American citizens an effective post make.

Can we please leave personal opinions out of this thread and discuss the astrology of the chart--preferably without using it to make certain assumptions of my mental abilities or personal character? Thanks.

Arian Maverick

tikana

10-19-2007, 11:37 PM

Arian

I never said YOU DID make it up.. this has been floating worldwide since sept 10th 2001. I dont think this question can be answered. I saw this at the airport a few days ago.. I went to pick up my aunt, so i was sitting and waiting. there was this suitcase standing by itself for at least 3 hours *i was waiting for my aunt to go through the customs" when i left, the suitcase was still unattended. Every 2-3 minutes there is someone saying in loud speakers do not leave your stuff unattended. No one cared. Earlier this week someone smuggled a fake bomb on the plane in LAX. SOOO basically what i am saying is.. it is not like a group of people just sat down and said hey WTC will be attacked, lets do nothing.. No one knew what is about to happen. Could WTC have been prevented? YES. And why are you even bringing up a traitor??? there are millions of people who were asking the question "was thsi staged? could it have been prevented"

lets look at the chart

Venus rules 10th - govt .. jupiter is a co-ruler.. combust
hidden enemies - 12th
open enemies - 7th
friends - 11th

okay

Venus does not aspect merc = ruler of 12th
Venus does not aspect mars - it is separating! OKAY so the US govt knows exactly who is responsible .. they sextiled each other at 25 deg gemini.. Mars/Venus were not in MR. Mars was very weak... US/venus was in MR with Nnode! hmmm okay.. something was on the table and it went sour.
sun ruler of 11th just entered Leo! Very strong. It would square jupiter .. then almuten of 10th is sautrn is in 8th house/11th house derived ... US govt is its knees to whoever is 11th house. MC conj Spica - whoever planned this was not prepared to see the US get up again!
Then also notice that Venus was in cancer which mundanly rules people. The US didnt stage this
conj arcturus - a different approach
there is a strong mr between venus/moon
sorry kids, NO coverups! if there was a cover up we should have seen more bad stuff like bad fixed stars, scorpio ruling. and etc.. there is no indication for that!

Tik

Radu

10-20-2007, 12:16 PM

are you sure that you are not expressing eastern bloc thinking? I live in Eastern Europe and I am without doubt influenced by the mentality of this world area.
However, between "believing that everything is a conspiracy" and "denying any conspiracy" there is the option of keeping an open mind, reading a lot and trying to figure out by yourself what is going on.
Astrology is a useful tool in this regard. It did help me rule out several situations I would otherwise cathegorized as in the conspiracy zone.

I understand what you're saying and it feels like due to the overwhelming amount of information and theories [both true and fake], you gave up the fight of trying to pursue the truth.
It is exactly the same situation with advertising. First time we see an advert we use our mind to accept/refuse what is said, but due to insane amounts of repetition, due to huge publicity, we finally cannot keep up resisting and accept what is advertised. It's quantity that overrides intellect and reason.
This is what the Bush administration does in order to pursue it's external politics agenda. It keeps repeating the same ideas until the public becomes totally convinced of them. It happened with the Iraq war, it now happens about Iran. It doesn't matter that what they say have little to no connection to reality. It's quality over quantity. This is a media war going on. A war against our minds.

I'm sorry for leaving the astrology line of discussion here. If you want, I'll move this topic to the General Chat section. My take on this chart was posted here (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/more-horary/911-staged-by-us-gov.php).

tikana

10-20-2007, 07:27 PM

I live in Eastern Europe and I am without doubt influenced by the mentality of this world area.
However, between "believing that everything is a conspiracy" and "denying any conspiracy" there is the option of keeping an open mind, reading a lot and trying to figure out by yourself what is going on.

*** Radu,,, Okay .. here is a question for you.. let's say we will figure out that 911 was staged.. THEN WHAT? you get 10 people in your group secret society ... secret language.. design a plan to hijack planes.. you put all these people on each plane. .. so casually calll one another and say "hey buy me a 1 ticket for each of us.. look at the schedule of all planes going from or to 4 specific spots.. it is not difficult to do something liek that.. everyone knows that most airlines do not have us marshalls on planes. Even now there are some scary reports that US marshals are smuggling bombs throuugh checkpoints. you think aiport security cares watches every move.. these high jackers ar eprofessional. They train for months at a time to look like everyone else and blend in. In England, at healthrow hundred of kids being smuggled on monthly basis as slaves from africa or eastern europe. Does anyone distinguish where is someone's real child or a kidnapped child? hardly not! ***

Astrology is a useful tool in this regard. It did help me rule out several situations I would otherwise cathegorized as in the conspiracy zone.

I understand what you're saying and it feels like due to the overwhelming amount of information and theories [both true and fake], you gave up the fight of trying to pursue the truth.

*** HOLD UP.. i didnt give up on finding the truth.. no govt US, ROmanian, Russian and etc will ever tell you what they are up to! no one iwll give you an answer WHY one event happend and the chain reaction.. WTC was attacked in 93 if you hadnt noticed.. Clinton DID NO DO JACK! he didnt do ANYTHING when USS Cole was attacked.. you think the US would have been sitting quiet and do nothing after 911?... Iraq to America is exactly like Afganistan was to USSR and Vietnam for the US...****

It is exactly the same situation with advertising. First time we see an advert we use our mind to accept/refuse what is said, but due to insane amounts of repetition, due to huge publicity, we finally cannot keep up resisting and accept what is advertised. It's quantity that overrides intellect and reason.

** there are 2 diff things... you cannot even compare them.. The US has history of coverups... area 51 not officially on the map, some other stuff going on no one notices.. whatever ... 911 WAS NOT STAGED.. maybe the US govt allowed it naturally to happen to find a good reason to get into middle east.. MAYBE .. but that is far fetched because Bush's cabinet HAD NO exit plan to begin with! It was rushed.. YEs we needed to get there .. why? because of bio weapons.. were they there? OF COURSE! why they arent there anymore? because they were moved... it is not like loading a rocket on a military truck and towing it away.. if you took biochem at any point in time.. you would have seen that vial of biological substances can be as small as a little tube... give the germs space. they will multiply.. chemical weapons are easy to massproduce..i was watching FBI program on tv once.. the guy was like "ohh you can make a bio/chem weapon from the stuff you buy over the counter." DUH! no sh*t.. to spread it around the globe isnt difficult. most chem weapons cannot be sniffed out ***

This is what the Bush administration does in order to pursue it's external politics agenda. It keeps repeating the same ideas until the public becomes totally convinced of them. It happened with the Iraq war, it now happens about Iran. It doesn't matter that what they say have little to no connection to reality. It's quality over quantity. This is a media war going on. A war against our minds.

**** keep watchng CNN>. come on! every govt is after something you know that. for how many years USSR was enslaving Romania with this warsaw pac propaganda ****? 40+ years? Romania backed Hitler .. Hitler was delusional yet he made millions upon millions people and nations to believe his BS.. Bush is nothing compare to lunatics communist Romania had..i am not even bringing up ROman empire which enslaved Romania as well.. speaking of Romania.. if you honestly think that breaking up of Warsaw pac was just a way to peace around the world.. guess again.. this was a very calculated move by reagan and margaret teatcher to bring down USSR by using Gorby.. guess who suffered? the common people.. remember romania in early 1990s? now the powers have shifted and divided..to eat least 3-4 parts.. it is getting more complicated!***

I'm sorry for leaving the astrology line of discussion here. If you want, I'll move this topic to the General Chat section. My take on this chart was posted here (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/more-horary/911-staged-by-us-gov.php).

** i saw this.. sorry i dont really agree with you but whatever.. ***

Regards
Tik

rahu

10-20-2007, 10:03 PM

there is a news story reported on rawstory.com and prisonplanet.com that the official government inquiry into how the twins towers collapsed,can not be scientifically explained.
rahu

SunMoonStar

10-21-2007, 12:21 AM

Ever since the Muslim religion started, all the Muslims have done is gone around killing people. In fact, almost all the original Muslims were forced violently into conversion. They have been killing other people and even other Muslims perpetually until this day. If America left, they'd still be killing each other, and terrorizing basically indiscriminately. In Darfur its Arab Muslims killing non-Arab Mulsims! America isn't right for what they're doing but the biggest assholes are the Muslims for going around killing people for over a millenium. The people are okay, every Arab/Muslim I know is a cool person (well, they're just not more or less likely to be assholes than any other race/nationality), but growing up in that religion and that environment almost invariably breeds murderers and terrorists. The facts are well-known and not hidden but people still turn a blind eye to it. I've never heard any claim that its a lie that Muslim religious figures preach that if you die in a terrorist act killing the "enemy" (which is any non-Muslim), then you go to heaven and get riches and 70 virgins. They even tell children that if they die killing the "enemy" they go to heaven and get as much candy as they want! Yet the world turns a totally blind eye to this. Its a real problem and if something doesn't stop it at the root, terrorists are going to be perpetually bred and there's nothing that's going to prevent that from happening. You can kill a thousand Muslim terrorists, but a thousand more will just spring up next year, because every new generation is a new generation of terrorists.
And if they had their way, it wouldn't just be all Americans dead or converted to Islam; it would be ANY non-Muslim. They want every person on this forum dead. So should we be in Iraq or Iran? I don't know, those are tough questions that most people won't admit are on such a large scope and incorporate so much tricky and ambiguous morality and require so much wisdom and intelligence to answer that really almost nobody is qualified to answer that question. But I do know that their preaching of violence and murder to children is a real problem and WILL cause perpetual violence unless its stopped.

Western Star

10-21-2007, 01:22 AM

Conspiracy? No. The real scandal is in the White House - "we found WMD", "mission accomplished", and "the US does not torture". Checkout this past week's episode of "Frontline" (Cheney's War) at pbs.org. As for the "two cobblers working side by side at the table", everyone is looking at the wrong pair...try looking at Cheney and his lawyer, Addington. As for acting on orders of a worldwide financial organization, try America's need and greed for oil or possibly Haliburton (who has gained more from the war than Haliburton?). One possible bright spot to all of this: Saturn is in Virgo, meaning the common person will gain power - the voters in the November 2008 elections. With Uranus and Neptune in mutual reception, there will be a dramatic change in leadership...and maybe the world can go about its business and stop worrying about the US acting like the 800-pound gorrilla in the room.

tikana

10-21-2007, 04:19 AM

there is a news story reported on rawstory.com and prisonplanet.com that the official government inquiry into how the twins towers collapsed,can not be scientifically explained.
rahu

Rahu

the WTC was not BUILT to hold up with tons and tons of hot fuel + a plane with passangers + luggage

sorry .. there is no conspiracy in WTC building

Singapore's engeneers were doing a simulated collapse of WTC
they figured that the plane was overloading the building's support
They were very interested in finding the truth because their twin buildings are unprotected and facing identical crisis if it is to happen .. so no cover ups there .. sorry!

Western Stars

thing is 90% dems will win in 2008 because republicans cannot come up with 1 person that could do something .. question is is it Hillary or Obama? Personally, Obama is better. I am not happy with Hillary. she has too many skeletons in her closet.

SunMoonStar
you are being a bit racist here.. There are PLENTY of Muslims who live in peace and they arenot bothering anyone. you think Christians are better? look at the history! Crusades, WW1, WW2, Korean war, Vietnam, Yugoslavia, people are killed left and right. Please stop with this racist and discrimination comments. I will tell you one thing. We had muslim family living above and next to our apartment. They were closer to us than my mom's own 2 freaky sisters. My grandpa and grandma were always sick.. no one could nor had time to babysit me.. guess who did the babysitting? our neighbor's husband who was Shiia muslim. He took me everywhere: zoo, music, concerts, picked me up from school and etc. so DONT EVEN GO and PLAY religious card ... and if you are seriously getting to that level. i guess you havent seen what Israel and Palestine are doing .. http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/33707/format/html/displaystory.html
but i guess you are too filled with hatred to even look beyond the obvious.... Other than good stuff from these 2 families i havent seen before nor after.
Christians killed other faith believers as well so there you have it..

Tik

SunMoonStar

10-21-2007, 06:50 AM

Tik, what I was saying wasn't racist at all, in that it wasn't at all based on a judgement on a race (if anything it would be anti-Muslim, which is not a race,) but I mentioned in my post I don't think any type of person is more inclined to be a worse based on any type of race, nationality or religion. What I described is a genuine crisis that isn't an opinion but a fact. Muslim religious figures preach what I described above, that dying killing the enemy, which they define as ANYONE non-Muslim, means you will go to heaven and get lots of money and virgins. Its not racist--its the truth. And that truth causes a lot of murder, violence, and death. Because it seems at a surface level to be a "racist" statement a lot of people tend to ignore it right away, which is such a fallacy because what people are essentially ignoring is a HUGE detriment to the eventual possibility of world peace. World peace is not possible if the second most widespread religion in the world preaches (and follows through with getting its preaching into its followers) killing others.

tikana

10-21-2007, 08:15 AM

Hmm SunMoon

you said 'Ever since the Muslim religion started, all the Muslims have done is gone around killing people. "

Let's see how this is not "religiously prejudicial" if racism is not a right word.

Omar Khayyam - mathematician and astronomer who calculated how to correct the Persian calendar. + a poet.. read his poems quite unique way of expressing verbally emotions and scenes.

Jabir Ibn Haiyan - a father of CHEMISTRY. He introduced experimental investigation into alchemy, which rapidly changed its character into modern chemistry

Ibn Al-Baitar - Greatest Botanist and Pharmacist of the Middle Ages

IBN RUSHD - was heavily involved with Islamic theology, Islamic law, Mathematics, Medicine, Philosophy

Al- Albani - this guy came from the poorest family in Albania to .. he was known as one of the most influential scholars in 20th century..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Albani

here is little info...

Armen Firnas invented parachute, hang glider, and flight controls .. he was muslim.. then he got really crazy .. he came up with artificial wings!

Lagari Hasan Çelebi *this guy is a genius in his own world* first person to create a powered manned rocket... in 17th century

Torpedos were invented in islamic region in as late as 13th century because there are illustations that were drawn in Syria in 1275.

Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī was one of the first people to develop quadratic equations. THEN he pulls something that that is totally unlike anything anyone has seen since.. he worked on Jewish calendar! He also drew almost correct map of earth as everyone knew it.

want me to continue ?// or you got enough? I can continue no problem .. lemme know.

You think these people were murdering in the name of Allah? I doubt it.. did Vlad III the Impaler impaled people because he was a muslim? no .. he did it to protect europe from the muslim invasion.. You think muslims were the only invaders in europe? Chengis Khan and his cronies got in the middle of Russia and bailed later... they went as far as BULGARIA in 1242. do you think Europe would tolerate Muslims?
speaking of virgins.. there are 72 virgins not 70... there is a speculation that Koran has been altered many many times by literally everyone.. and koran is being brainwashed across islamic countries by clerics and etc.

what world peace? EVERYONE is killing everyone regardless of a religion. Most wars start with religion.
more than 60 million people parished in ww2: Catholics, Christians, Jews, Athiests, Agnostics, Protestants, and bunch of other branches of all relions. WHO STARTED IT? Muslims? NOOOO! Germany and Italy! Did NANKING have muslims or did muslims invaded China? No.. it was Japan!
How did hell break loose in Yugoslavia? How many people had to die before someone did something about stopping it? Neighbor was killing a neighbor with whom they shared bread and food.

Czechoslovakia-Hungary War (1918–1919) what muslims!
Napoleon war - did you see any muslims ? I didnt
Northern Ireland War - Well .. i heard they were getting supplied by al-quaida but it is very speculative
look at european history. Someone was killing someone or attacking left and right throughout the history. since 2001 ((Macedonian conflict which was religiously based), europe has been quiet. Question is for how long? Let's hope for a very long time.

England for instance has been in the war since 13th century until 17th constantly against Dutch and Spaniards.
since UK was formed

UK vs Holland *YET AGAIN .. people dont learn*
Anglo-Persian war
anglo-russian war
anglo - sikh war
anglo - swedish war
anglo - turkish war - everything was involved .. religon, control, land, power and etc
Anglo - zanibar war
Anglo - Zulu war
Anglo-Sri lanka *ex kingdom of Kandy* war they fought each other twice.. again people dont learn

shall i continue?
it is easy to go after another foreign religion when there is a lack of understanding of culture and history.
Middle east NEVER seen peace! the problem with islam is those killing in the name of allah was referred to Shiias and Sunnis... They cannot agree which path is correct one.
They live in tribes. Each has its sector its "ruler" and everyone obeys what has been ordered. Most of the people cannot even read.. They memorize Koran it is in their tradition.. does anyone here known bible by heart? I dont .. i cannot remember the last time when i opened it.
then those 2 are going after the Kurds which is a really unique case.. they are like gypsies.. mixed for centuries. some are actually following jewish torah believe it or not, a great majority are muslim.. some christians, some are assyrians, they are like sponges. There are Kurds living in Armenia actually. They were defending Armenia against Azeris in early 1990s. Armenian govt asked them not to get involved because the armenian govt knew if the kurds will start a fight with azeris which are shiaa then Kurds in Turkey will get into a fight with the Turkish forces .. All hell is there. There is no clear answer or solution. this has been going on for centuries.. until the govt/the clerics get their sh*t together, nothing will be solved in middle east. Dividing Iraq will be STUPID and a fatal mistake this is not a solution. If they create an automy for each sector, and alll 3 sectors obey by 1 govt that is rational and not insanly religious but obeys KORAN, then there is a sense of peace. if the US and UK will be there, they need to teach soldiers how to respect the local traditions. You think an average hiilbilly who has not been outside of his city knows who is Shia or who is Sunni? HELL NO! and iran needs to get thier filhty hands off iraq. Nato just busted a convoy of weapons that was going into Afganistan... i am sure they are pulling the same sh*t in iraq.

if you really want to grasp on HOW BAD islam is .. go to a peaceful country * morocco or singapore, Saudia arabia, UAE *** where there is no war and hang out there for 2 weeks, you might learn a thing or 2 aobut islam and people who live there.

regards Tik

PS Arian sorry for taking this of-course but i am just getting FED Up with this "islam bad all around krap" ignorance is a bliss ..

Radu

10-21-2007, 08:53 AM

Hey you forgot Arab astrologers!
Astrology wouldn't be as we know it today, without their huge contribution.

An incomplete list from Wikipedia:
* Abraham ibn Ezra
* Abraham Zacuto
* Al-Battani
* Al-Biruni
* Albubather
* Alchabitius
* Al-fadl ibn Naubakht
* Ali ibn Ridwan
* Al-Kindī
* Arzachel
* Berossus
* Biblical Magi (the "Three Wise Men")
* Haly Abenragel
* Hypatia of Alexandria
* Ibn Arabi
* Ibn Yunus
* Ibrahim al-Fazari
* Ja'far ibn Muhammad Abu Ma'shar al-Balkhi
* Mashallah
* Muhammad al-Fazari
* Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi
* Naubakht
* Omar Khayyam
* Porphyry
* Sharafeddin Tusi
* Sudines

tikana

10-21-2007, 09:00 AM

Radu

i didnt even want to go there just because i didnt want to sound LIMITED.. we woudl not have astrology if Babylon didnt keep up with their records along with Arab astrologers.. after all arab astrologers came to Nazareth to greet Jesus.

BTW, Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī developed something with horary.. something to do with latitudes but i cant remember what it is all about.

Cheers
Tik

SunMoonStar

10-21-2007, 05:47 PM

I know, you're right, Tik. I genuinely don't mean to come off as religiously prejudice (what the hell is the word for that...) I was just really pissed off about the Jewish comment at the time. I just have strong beliefs regarding the way the Islamic religion is misused to incite violence. I definitely came off too strong (I think I used the word "assholes") so I'm sorry for that. My best friend is Lebanese and I'm Israeli (although we both live in America). Its a real tough situation and I get very sensitive when people make ignorant anti-semitic or anti-Zionist comments like that. Its a really tough situation out there and no American could possibly understand. Here, its just statistics. You compare the numbers to see whose "worse" or more at fault. You hear "6 Israelis dead," meanwhile my best friend's whole family was killed. That really happened. I read an American newspaper that really flamed Israelis and made that Palestinian bombing to seem trivial, meanwhile I spent weeks in Israel grieving with my friend who had just lost all the closest people in his life in one fell swoop. The truth is ITS A REALLY REALLY HARD SITUATION. Yes, the Israelis have made mistakes, but its impossible not to make them. Its not well known but the political situation is even more divided in Israel than in America (they have a three party system, which is actually really cool, instead of having this American bipolar system), and the Israelis are often WITH the rest of the world in being angry about something the Israeli government did. But at the end of the day, the rest of the world just doesn't understand what its like to worry about your family being killed every day.

SunMoonStar

10-21-2007, 05:57 PM

Also, never give up on world peace...

tikana

10-21-2007, 07:31 PM

[QUOTE=SunMoonStar]I know, you're right, Tik. I genuinely don't mean to come off as religiously prejudice (what the hell is the word for that...) I was just really pissed off about the Jewish comment at the time. I just have strong beliefs regarding the way the Islamic religion is misused to incite violence.

*** where there is poverty there is violence and terrorism... ohh hell, even neighboring arab countries want nothing to do Palestine.. you think they cannot rebuild Palestine? sure they can.. do they want to do it? NOOO! ***

I definitely came off too strong (I think I used the word "assholes") so I'm sorry for that. My best friend is Lebanese and I'm Israeli (although we both live in America). Its a real tough situation and I get very sensitive when people make ignorant anti-semitic or anti-Zionist comments like that.
*** okkay.. ***

Its a really tough situation out there and no American could possibly understand. Here, its just statistics. You compare the numbers to see whose "worse" or more at fault. You hear "6 Israelis dead," meanwhile my best friend's whole family was killed. That really happened. I read an American newspaper that really flamed Israelis and made that Palestinian bombing to seem trivial, meanwhile I spent weeks in Israel grieving with my friend who had just lost all the closest people in his life in one fell swoop.
*** dont get me started on who writes what ***

The truth is ITS A REALLY REALLY HARD SITUATION. Yes, the Israelis have made mistakes, but its impossible not to make them. Its not well known but the political situation is even more divided in Israel than in America (they have a three party system, which is actually really cool, instead of having this American bipolar system), and the Israelis are often WITH the rest of the world in being angry about something the Israeli government did. But at the end of the day, the rest of the world just doesn't understand what its like to worry about your family being killed every day

*** Israel is a small countrywith people from all over the world they all have different take ins on politics so everyone is bending the laws into their advantage no necessarily to benefit the entire Israel or to promote peace in Middle east... I said there is no peace in middle east because everyone want the same land. Israel's history lays in Gaza strip. complicated issue! ****

regards
Tik

SunMoonStar

10-21-2007, 08:40 PM

everyone is bending the laws into their advantage no necessarily to benefit the entire Israel or to promote peace in Middle east
You really have no idea about this writing from America. You have no idea how badly the average Israeli wants peace. Americans have such strong opinions about this issue because they have the internet and watch the news, which is the equivalent of memorizing the "Hip bone's connected to the..." song and feeling you should have an M.D., when in reality you have no clue what its like out there.

tikana

10-21-2007, 09:40 PM

WHAT?

there you go again .. ASSUMPTIONS! nothing more nothing less.. Yes i have been to israel .. I have seen what is going on out there. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT COMMON PEOPLE HERE! WHERE THERE IS MONEY; THERE IS CORRUPTION. govts are corrupted. if there ws a solution, they could have found one ages ago but i guess they didnt teach you that in school or did they. Govt does not profit from when there is no war. You think it was worth USSR to lose 20 million people then 60+ years face "the soviets did not help us to win ww2. quite the opposite?' The Soviet govt would have said "stop at the borders" .. they didnt .. why? because as soon as Hitler's army was defeated in Stalingrad the game was over. Stalin, Churchil and Roosevelt were already dividing the countries on map.who profited for all this? GOVT. not people! Radu, me, whoelse is from eastern bloc here had to tolerate communism bs... "Wanna see how you should live? ***** you!" Is Germany doing okay after reunification? HELL NO.. why? because West Germany had to teach East Germany how to live free plus millions if not billions of dollars had been spent on fixing Eastern Germany. who profited from all this? Govts! .. well Romanian communist ruler/dictotor Cheuchesku *i cannot spell his name* was hanged in 1989 if i am not wrong. the whole trial was mockery. it was labeled as kangeroo court. His official salary was about 3,000 bucks annually yet somehow he managed to get himself in a big debt in las vegas... he managed to borrow $13 billion loan which strained already strained Romanian people. Shortly before he was overthrown, the debt was paid in full.. PEOPLE SUFFERED PRIOR TO PAYING OFF THIS DEBT. DID HE ASK ROMANIAN PEOPLE "people, we need to do something about fixing our economical problem. we need money. we need to borrow a large amount. how much can we afford to borrow without creating HELL?" THIS WAS NOT EVEN ON THE TABLE.. no one asked Romanian people to agree or disagree...You think Romania could not afford to rebuild itself without borrowng money or supplies? there had to be a way of doing it. BUT NOOOO let's borrow then figure out how to get out.. ohh wait.. ***** it.. lets borrow and let the common people be without food, gas, electricity, water and etc... This was forced on Romanian people: food rationing to No food, NO gas, NO electricity, water, whatelse am i missing, Radu? for how long the govt can stretch people's pateince? this shenanigan has been going on since 1945. it is bad enough ww1, ww2 now this freak Cheuchesku pushes his 13 billion debt on people?. .... see he profitted while people suffered and still feeling the post-c0mmunist strain. he was anti-liberation movement.. he went as far as nagging Gorby to calm the east down with use of all forces needed. so basically he was calling for a massive extermination.. he lost all his grips on reality .. stores had NOTHING! yet on TV there was nonstop propagangda how great Romania is .. food is everywehre... all stands are filled with food and etc. People wrote letters to this a**hole asking "what the hell is going on?" he would pass those letters down in the chain. did Romanian Revolution of 1989 have to happen the way it did? NO... 1,104 deaths! Czechoslovakia did the right thing - peacefully split up with a mutual respect.

see here you go again.. " You have no idea how badly the average Israeli wants peace." see how SELFISH YOU ARE?
you think an palestian kid does not want to live a normal life? Guess again. They are driven to the breaking point because there is no solution. no one other than terrorist cells is HELPING. Med student in Palestine is forced to join Hammas cause he cannot find a job as a doctor. LOOK AROUND what is going on outside of israel, you will find your WHYs. A kid is carrying AK-47 and blowing an israeli colored toy bus because his parents know that there is no guarantee that their kid will see tomorrow. Someone pays the "terrorist" money to blow himself up to save his surviving family.. this has almost nothing to do with Jihad. It is covered with Jihad, a facade. The volume of gold of palestine has declined to a point where the families are forced to sell their family treasures which had been passed on from generation to generation.. Not even mentioning that Fatas and Hammas dont get along. They were at each other's throats for close to 2 years or something. SOMEONE always profits from a conflict..it is not all 1 side. Ohh Arabs are bad! ohh yeah right.. how many times did western countries stabbed the arabs in the back? I lost track!. if you didnt know, handshake was originated in iran/iraq terroritory as a sign of trust. It is still considered to be one of the sacred symbols in any arab tradition. There is sh*t going on behind closed doors among everyone.

Israel did a lot of mistakes so did Palestine and everyone else in the region.. there was a story ages ago .. bus was blown up by a terrorist, there was 13 year old * i cant remember but there was a line osmehting about bar mitzvah was coming up** boy on the bus. his liver was damaged to a point of no recovery. in palestine, 2 days earlier another boy was dlying from something. somehow palestinian hospital heard of israeli boy, a palestinian woman, mother of dying son, said "give my sons liver to the israeli boy" guess what Israel i mother said? something along "we dont need your terorrist liver here" Both boys died. if you think only ISRAEL is suffering, guess again... Palestine, the US, Arab countries, are suffering as well. the US/Arab relation is very strained. Long beach port, here in LA, was almost on a take over by the arab company. The Americans really put up a huge fight to a point where the US had to step up and say "sorry but our people do not want this"

whatever.. look outside of Israel once in a blue moon. it is not all that peachy as it seems!
Tik

SunMoonStar

10-21-2007, 11:03 PM

I do look outside Israel, I live in America... All you did in your last post is list how many things are wrong with this world; the only point you're making is that things are ****** up. "SELFISH", "ignorant", whatever. "you think an palestian kid does not want to live a normal life?" You think I don't know about this? "Having been" to Israel DOES NOT translate to understanding what its like. Yeah, there are problems everywhere, there's no denying that after reading your rambling post, but the problems in Israel aren't the SAME thing as everywhere else, meaning if you don't live there, if you don't have family there, if you don't have to call your family every time Israel is on the news just to make sure none of them died, then you CAN'T know what its like.
WHERE THERE IS MONEY; THERE IS CORRUPTION. govts are corrupted. if there ws a solution, they could have found one ages ago but i guess they didnt teach you that in school or did they. No I wasn't told that in school, and I should hope to god they don't try to teach that to my kids when they go to school. World peace isn't an easy thing to achieve, but it only becomes impossible when no one believes in it. A positively functional government with minimal corruption isn't impossible just because you can't conceive of it.

tikana

10-21-2007, 11:45 PM

i guess closing your eyes on the obvious is "right way to teach" our kids what is really going on..

wait wait wait a second say that again? "World peace isn't an easy thing to achieve, but it only becomes impossible when no one believes in it." HUH? GREEED GREEED animal instinct GREED is preventing from world peace. everyone wants someting with the least force and time applied.. so let's say. a robber breaks into your house and steals 5karat diamon ring from you. How long would it have taken him to buy the ring legititimately? probably never unless he is a millionaire or something like that. how long would it have taken him to steal it? 3-4 weeks of planning maybe more or less.

Govt are worse. they are interested in natural resources. when you have an army invading any country, 1st thing govt asks what do we get out of it. when the US got involved in Iraq, 2 things were going on A. oil B. Saddam.. if they cared about the people, the US would have had an emergency economical quick recovery plan for iraqi people... 80% ar out of jobs. Guess what those peopel are doing these days? growing poppies for cocaine and other drugs which end up in europe. same goes for Afganistan.. During taliban, there was little % of drugs produced on Afgani soil. now, the business is booming prices are down.. because there is supply and demand!
when US special forced went into Angola, what where they after? DIAMONDS and OIL.. Angola has a large reserves of oil. Some speculate they have more oil than SA. US rigs are there.US briefly got into Yugoslavia because people were crying out for help and Russian forces were backing the serbs while Bosnians were dying, the innocent people. ok so what is the gain for the US? control in europe. Russia stretched its claws. there has not been a year in 20th century nor in 21st amonth without a war SOMEwhere in the world. Animals in the wild are constantly fighting for a terroritory. same thing with the humans.

"I do look outside Israel,"
HUH? other than "You have no idea how badly the average Israeli wants peace. " I DIDNT HEAR ANYTHING about other people! You didnt look at Palestine.. you HAVE no idea how much common Palestians want peace. 3rd generation is going through what hell. but i guess Israel's interests come first, right? agrh then you blame peopel for going anti-Semite. There is a reason for it.. look at european history how much the jewish people were pushed to the corner starting with English prosecution of 1290.

Tik

SunMoonStar

10-22-2007, 01:07 AM

when US special forced went into Angola, what where they after? DIAMONDS and OIL
ROFL what!?!? You keep doing this. I talked about world peace and you're talking about diamonds. I believe in the possibility of world peace and if you don't, then fine you don't have to, but it's sad. I'm an optimist about humanity. I only talked about Israel because that was all I wanted to talk about; it doesn't at all have to mean I don't know about anything else. I'm not just randomly barraging the forum with my entire arsenal of political knowledge like you. "There's a reason for anti-semitism." Haha whatever. You make all these posts accusing ignorance and then you say something incredibly ignorant like that.

tikana

10-22-2007, 01:16 AM

Excuse me? name calling now? wow that is very intelligent.

Look at the HISTORY of anit-semitism.. there is politics behind it.. meaning someone was/is/will be GAINING SOMETHING out of ANTI-SEMITISM.. GET IT? GAIN = MONEY/POWER .. But at least i didnt come with "koran this koran that.. muslims this muslims that" WHATEVER!

WORLD PEACE DOES NOT EXIST nor CAN EXIST.
DIAMONDs/OIL are the most valuable commodity in the world.

Tik

SunMoonStar

10-22-2007, 01:42 AM

"WORLD PEACE DOES NOT EXIST"
Great observation.
"It won't."
I just disagree. I believe in humanity.

WORLD PEACE DOES NOT EXIST nor CAN EXIST.
DIAMONDs/OIL are the most valuable commodity in the world.
These two are not synonymous! You keep doing this! :D Maybe you can connect the two, but you didn't! You just juxtaposed these two completely different ideas. That's fundamentally what all your posts have done. You disagree with something and then pull tons of random facts and put exclamation marks at the end of them! so I'm not even sure whether to take you seriously or not...

This isn't going anywhere. I believe in the eventual possibility of world peace, equality of all human beings, and optimism of the human race in general, despite that we're not perfect. You're retorting with any (and every) random political concept you know that surfaces to your head! Its ridiculous and its giving me a headache!

Believing in humanity,
SMS

tikana

10-22-2007, 02:21 AM

you gave me a migrane back when you went off all muslim are evil issue.

and AGAIN you are incorrect. I didnt start with the political arsenal. jenluvsblackcat did when he/she run across with Pearl Harbor.

I can connect the dots quite perfectly. RELIGION/DIAMONDS/OIL/LAND were/are/will be always a reason for a war. And do you honestly say that the govt will listen to bunch of people protesting? It didnt work in Vietnam, it didnt work with Iraq. Who is in charge of starting wars? GOVT! GOVT doesnt give a sh*t about people. Some govts are better, some are far worse.

Believe in whatever you want. Believing is one thing.. DOING something about promoting peace is something else. Were you on a OneVoice march in israel on 18th? I highly doubt it... if you are seeking UTOPIA, you are on the wrong planet. People are too corrupt.

and you claim to be promoting peace? by stating "And if they had their way, it wouldn't just be all Americans dead or converted to Islam; it would be ANY non-Muslim. They want every person on this forum dead." LOL. Really? Tell that to King of Jordan? He will get a kick out of it .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34bVcLMrcRs if every muslim wanted everyone non-Muslim dead WHY THE HELL IS EGYPT selling petrolium to ISRAEL? Economic strangle is the worse of all. Plus whoever is in import/export of oil knows that Israel only pumps 5-10 thousand of barrels of oil a day, which puts israel 99% depending on anyone who wants to sell oil to Israel. or are you promoting your peace by calling me "an *******".. That is just fabulous! Gee i dont know how to even thank you.

Tik

SunMoonStar

10-22-2007, 05:24 AM

1) I called you a name for your comment on anti-Semitism being meritable, which was appropriate. In my view of the world, assholes can co-exist with peace, hence world peace being possible, and my calling you out not inhibiting the progress to that goal.

2) Your pessimistic views of government do not PROVE that peace cannot exist. Listing how bad the government is doesn't eliminate the possibilities of better alternatives. The possibilities we've achieved based on technological advancement would've been completely unimaginable only a hundred years ago. So I don't know how its possible, but I have faith in the human race, and faith that pessimists like you can't take that away no matter how much you hate everything.

3) IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT ALL MUSLIMS WANT ALL NON-MUSLIMS DEAD. Don't make everything black and white. There ARE some, however, Muslims and religious figures of Islam that DO preach this. Closing your eyes to this doesn't make it go away. People die all the time from it. It exists. Sorry.

Still believing in humanity,
SMS

tikana

10-22-2007, 05:42 AM

[QUOTE=SunMoonStar]1) I called you an "*******" for your comment on anti-Semitism being meritable, which was appropriate. In my view of the world, assholes can co-exist with peace, hence world peace being possible, and my calling you out not inhibiting the progress to that goal.

** this is going to Radu! i said there is a REASON not a JUSTIFICATION. 2 differnt things ***

2) Your pessimistic views of government do not PROVE that peace cannot exist. Listing how bad the government is doesn't eliminate the possibilities of better alternatives. The possibilities we've achieved based on technological advancement would've been completely unimaginable only a hundred years ago. So I don't know how its possible, but I have faith in the human race, and faith that pessimists like you can't take that away no matter how much you hate everything.

** WHATEVER! nothng to do with me HATING everything. I am completely against the govts stirring wars which should not be stirred to begin with. name 1 thing that has been achieved that no one thought of say 100 years ago ***

3) IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT ALL MUSLIMS WANT ALL NON-MUSLIMS DEAD. Don't make everything black and white. There ARE some, however, Muslims and religious figures of Islam that DO preach this. Closing your eyes to this doesn't make it go away. People die all the time from it. It exists. Sorry.

** YOU SAID "Ever since the Muslim religion started, all the Muslims have done is gone around killing people. In fact, almost all the original Muslims were forced violently into conversion. They have been killing other people and even other Muslims perpetually until this day." People have killed people for one reason or another .. name 1 spot on earth that hasnt been in a war? it doesnt exist.. ***

whatever
Tik