My Method

[Konrad]

I mentioned in a previous thread that I have came up with a method of predicting soccer matches based upon a chart for the start of the game. here it is:

I'm going to demonstrate it with three games I did last night, all played in the Netherlands and, more importantly, all starting at 19.00 GMT. This is important as it took me hundreds of charts to come up with a method which could arrive at different results with an almost identical chart.

Just a little note: on the charts, the location will always be "Crieff". To avoid confusion, I use my own time-zone for the start of the match and I just change the starting co-ordinates.

First chart: Cambuur vs Fortuna Sittard

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9533/cambuur.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/i/cambuur.jpg/)

Ok, before I even look at the charts, I get the information on the teams. this is the most time-consuming aspect, the actual judging of the result usually takes no more than a minute.

I need the kit colours, the starting odds and since this is a league game, the league positions of the competing teams. If you don't know how odds operate then I suggest reading up on that first but simply, the lower the number, the more likely a team is considered to win. Use wikipedia for the kits and stadium co-ordinates and http://www.flashscore.com to find the starting odds. Clicking on the game you want will bring up a box showing bet 365.com's current odds, hovering the mouse over the relevant odds will show you what they started at.

Cambuur:

-Kit: yellow shirts, blue shorts
-Odds: 1.33
-League Pos: 4th

Fortuna Sittard:

-Kit: green shirts, white shorts (away kit)
-Odds: 8.00
-League Pos: 17th

In this game we can see Cambuur are heavy favourites, its going to take alot to defeat them tonight.

Looking at the chart, we see the asc-dsc axis runs through Libra and Aries, so our sigs are the two ruling planets: Venus in Pisces and Mars in Leo.

I now decide which team is which sig. I'm quite happy to say that Venus in Pisces is Cambuur as using Fensi's great colour schemes confirms it (http://www.astrosport07.webs.com/). Also, in my experience, Mars can be used for the type of dark green which Fortuna wear. I also give the teams secondary sigs. The 1st gets ruler of the tenth, the 7th ruler of the 4th (that being the turned 10th). In this chart we can see that Cancer rules the tenth. Uh oh! I don't like this and truth be told, I'm not completely satisfied with my method on what to use when Cancer is on an important point. I've settled on using the Moon's dispositor as we need the Moon for other things. In this case that is Mercury in Pisces. the ruler of the 4th is Saturn in Libra.

Again, before I try and judge the chart, I write all this down plus the antiscia of all the relevant chart points:

Cambuur:

-Venus 22 51' Pisces (7 09' Libra)
-Mercury 0 23' Pisces (29 37 ' Libra)


Fortuna Sittard:

-Mars 0 47' Leo (29 13 ' Taurus)
-Saturn 2 49' Libra (27 11' Pisces)

The Moon: 26 33 Virgo (3 27' Aries)

Part of Fortune: 15 40' Aries (14 20' Virgo)

Now to the chart. Firstly, I look for any placements (planetary or via antisica) at any important points. These being within two degrees of the 1st or 7th house cusps. The 10th and 4th also but they have much less impact on the result. The Moon or it's antiscia help the cusp they fall in or near. The bodily placement of the Part of Fortune doesn't, while its antiscia seems to but that needs more testing.

In this chart we have one important placement. Saturn, lord of the 4th, is just inside the 1st house cusp. This gives an advantage to the 1st house team. If it were just on the other side of the cusp, the advantage would go to the 7th house team. The Moon is too far away and in a different sign to help the 1st house. I must also strees here that the lord of the 4th being in or on the 10th doesn't make much difference and vice versa. We are really looking for combinations involving the lord of the 1st or the 7th being in, or on, a relevant house (1st, 7th, 10th and 4th) within the two degrees. Same goes with the Moon and the antiscia of POF. 1st and 7th is much stronger than the 10th and 4th.

Next I look for aspects between the Moon and the other points. Here we have two. It trines the antiscia of Mars and opposes the antiscia of Saturn. If anyone has used Frawley's method before you'll see that this method is based upon that but with some major differences, it is these differences which make this accurate and his not. As per Frawley's method we only look to aspects for the next 5 degrees, I would actually use one at 5 1/2 degrees but there is no strict limit. I have also used aspects which perfect in the following sign successfully too.

That is as far as it goes, as there are no aspects between the sigs and the POF.

So, we have two indications of the game. Again, unlike Frawley's method, I find the aspects the Moon makes are cumulative. Also the nature of the aspect is crucial; Conjunction, sextile or trine = good. Square and opposition = bad.

Here the Moon trines the antiscia of Mars thus helping Fortuna Sittard. However, it opposes the antiscia of Saturn thus hindering Fortuna Sittard. Aspects, or anything in the chart for that matter, are always more potent when involving the Lord or the cusp of the 1st and 7th. Keeping that in mind, the 7th is a little stronger than the 1st in this chart.

Now here's the most difficult part, it requires a little practice to get this right, although not in this particular instance. Cambuur are very heavy favourites and Fortuna Sittard would need to be very strong in the chart to even get a draw. Here they are not. The trine to Mars helps them tremendously but the opposition to Saturn hinders them a little as does Saturn's placement. They have a slight disadvantage and add that to the large gulf in class between the teams:

My predicition: Cambuur

Result: Cambuur 2 - 1 Fortuna Sittard


Next chart is Emmen vs TOP Oss:

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4673/emmenv.jpg (http://img33.imageshack.us/i/emmenv.jpg/)


Here we can see this chart is almost identical. The axis are only 0 47' advanced.

Let's start at the beginning.

Emmen:

-Kit: Red and white
-Odds: 1.95
-League Postion: 18th


TOP Oss:
-Kit: Blue and white
-Odds: 3.50
-League Position: 19th

The chart is almost identical to the last, the only difference being it is advanced 0 47' degrees. Mars in Leo fits red and white, so Mars is Emmen, TOP Oss is Venus.

Here I must raise an important point. The bookies' odds don't always accurately reflect the situation. Both of these teams are near the bottom of the league and are as such as good (or as bad) as each other. The odds don't relfect this. Emmen have home field advantage, so I would make them only slight favourites. Be watchful of the odds relative to league positions. The other day I did a french league game between the 5th placed team and the 16th placed team. The lower team were a big-named club and this was relfected in the odds as they were fairly even. I disagreed. The team at 5th in the table were at home giving them a slight advantage added to which they were obviously a better team this season due to their league position, so the advantage was a big one.

Anyway, we look at this chart and find that the 1st house team (TOP Oss) have a slight advantage. Emmen started with a slight advantage. Putting that together we have my prediction:

Draw

Result:

Emmen 2 - 2 TOP Oss


Last chart is Veendam vs FC Eindhoven

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5788/veendamo.jpg (http://img33.imageshack.us/i/veendamo.jpg/)

Again this chart is almost identical to the previous charts.

Veendam:

-Kit: yellow and black
-Odds: 2.25
-League Position: 12th


FC Eindhoven:

-Kit: blue and white
-Odds: 3.00
-League Position: 13th

I gave Mars to Veendam as it fits yellow and black, and Venus to FC Eindhoven.

Here, again, we have slight favourites being beaten slightly. My prediction:

Draw

Result:

Veendam 0 - 1 FC Eindhoven

Hmm, I was wrong. I was confused. Surely the astrology couldn't be wrong? I looked at the chart again but found nothing. Eventually I decided to look at the last couple of months of results for these teams. Veendam have been losing almost 3 in 4 of their games home and away since December, while FC Eindhoven have lost one game since December 18th. This is a good example of how a league table and odds were both slightly inaccurate. FC Eindhoven are on the rise while Veendam are in a bit of a rut. Taking this into account, we can see why I should have given FC Eindhoven a better starting point and therefore the victory.

As I said in the other thread, it is not 100% accurate but that is purely down to me. The astrology is solid and is never wrong. Sometimes I get it wrong like the last chart. Sometimes teams decide to wear their 3rd kit at home which messes up the assignation of the sigs. Sometimes I am sleeping and I miss an important placement or aspect. I know this works though, I got 6 out of 7 games last night with the only one wrong being the last chart.

If you are going to use this, I would advise you start on a league you know. this will help to avoid any inaccuracies with the odds and form of the teams.

If anyone has any questions, feel free.
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[fensi88]

Thanks Konrad for sharing your method with us! Very kind of you! You are a born teacher! You excellent explain your method and I have no obiectinons, to me it is logic!

[lillyjgc]

Konrad-How do you feel about Sharing this on the Education Board?
It might be helpful.We don't have a lot there on this subject.
Cheers
Lilly

[fensi88]

Excellent idea, Lillyjgc!

[Konrad]

I'm fine with it. These examples don't cover every nuance of it but the basics are there.
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[Bulletbobb]

It seems to me that what you are doing is playing around with the color method, the odds, past preformance, league standing, and anything else you need to massage to get the team you want into the first house. When you get it wrong you claim the method is perfect and you made a mistake. I can't speak for others, but that doesn't fill me with enthusiasm.

I am in the US, and over here we are not too fond of Fensi's color method. In the one game you decide that dark green is a Mars color, and in another yellow and black! I don't know much about colors, but green and black don't seem appropriate for Mars, to me at least. Put the favorite in the first house and be done with it. If the odds are close, use the home team. It's not perfect, but it works as well as anything else, and it's consistent.

Regards,

Bob

[Konrad]

Well Bulletbobb, you're free to do as you wish.

This is based upon electional astrology where we use the natal chart as well as a current chart. All I'm doing is substituting a natal chart for an estimation of the team's strength and to do that, especially for teams I have no knowledge of, odds, form and league position are the most accurate way.

I don't need to massage anything to get the astrology to work. I actually decide upon the sigs before I even look at the chart in-depth. Perhaps if you looked into astrological colours before dismissing it, you would be capable of grasping it. Of course the colours don't perfectly match but the planets and the signs they inhabit make my mind up for me. Also, I'm doing so many charts that my observations show which colours fit with the current planetary positions and since they move slowly through the signs, it gives me plenty of chances to assign the correct sigs.

The fact is that using favourites/underdogs and home/away doesn't work. It may work in the odd game but it does not consistently work and especially not with games kicking-off in the same area of the world at the same time.

Of course you are free to believe what you want.
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[fensi88]

The fact is that using favourites/underdogs and home/away doesn't work. It may work in the odd game but it does not consistently work and especially not with games kicking-off in the same area of the world at the same time.

Of course you are free to believe what you want.

I agree with you, apsolytelly right!!

[Bulletbobb]

I actually agree with you, too, but perhaps not for the reason you might think. Any method based on game charts alone is going to break down when there are charts with the same angles. Frawley was aware of this when he gave the example of the snooker tournement.

The problem with the favorite/home team is not with the concept itself, because it is based on basic astrological principles. The problem is that the methods astrologers use to analyze the charts are flawed, with the result that they often can't tell whether their call was wrong because they had the wrong team in the first house or they analyzed the chart incorrectly.

In any event this is all irrelevant. I will wait to see if others find your method workable, which it should be regardless of how one assigns the first house.

Bob

[Konrad]

The snooker point is moot here. I have not done any work on snooker matches but I'm sure there is some way of finding a winner however it would be much more difficult to assign sigs to the players as they all wear black.

The thing is Bob, people may use this method one or twice and may find it works or it doesn't but I have spent 2 months of solid work evolving it and therefore I am much more practiced judging them. I can assure you it works. I have no ego about it. In fact I couldn't care less if no-one on the planet believes me it works, it is just a personal belief that the knowledge isn't mine to hold back from others and should be shared, hence I'm sharing it.

That being said, you can try it yourself but there are some other rules I use which were not demonstrated in the previous charts. If other people want me to, I can post more charts with their respective interpretations.
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[fensi88]

... but there are some other rules I use which were not demonstrated in the previous charts. If other people want me to, I can post more charts with their respective interpretations.
Yes, I am interested in that other rules especially for draw result if you made research!
Thanks.

[Konrad]

Ok Fensi. I'll do them tomorrow morning as I'm busy for the rest of the evening but in short all games are judged the same way and very similarly to the way you have been doing on your site. As I outlined above, each team starts with a different strength and we compare those. The chart then shows two different strengths and we add that to the staring strengths and deduce from there.

The strengths in the chart fall into different catergories. I have found placements are stronger than aspects, so the Moon in the 1st house is slightly stronger than the Moon aspecting the Lord of the 1st via a positive aspect. Aspects by body are slightly stronger than aspects by antiscia. Aspects to POF from the Moon are of a similar strength to aspects to the lords of the 1st and 7th by the Moon. Anything involving the 10th and 4th houses and their lords are less strong than anything involving the 1st and 7th.

For example, you have 1st in the league (Team A) vs 2nd in the league (Team B). Both have a similar amount of points and are very evenly matched. Team A has a slight advantage of being at home.

We assign the colours and find that Team A is the 1st and Team B is the 7th.

Now to assess it.

The Moon makes a sextile to the antisca of the Lord of the 4th. This is a slight indication for Team B. This makes them even. The Moon is in the 1st house. This puts Team A ahead. The last indication is a conjunction of the Moon to Lord of the 7th. This helps Team B. Now, remember that placement is slightly stronger than aspect, so Team A just edges it. I would give Team A the win.

Now imagine that everything is the same. The Moon sextiles the antisca of the Lord of the 4th. It is in the 1st house again but this time the antisca of the POF is in the 7th. This is an even testimony and I would say draw.

The key is to be able to weigh up the indications against the starting positions of the teams. This is not some special skill, it just requires you to do lots and lots of charts. I managed it by going back to games played in the last week, using the flashscore.com site I gave earlier to find the odds and doing charts I already knew the results for. This helped me to get a taste for what is stronger than what and even now I am still learning.

I'll post some examples tmorrow morning.
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[fensi88]

OK, thanks.

[Konrad]

Here is a drawn game that I did a couple of days ago.

Sunderland vs Fulham:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1786/sunderland.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/sunderland.jpg/)

Sunderland:

-Kit: Red, white and black
-Odds: 2.10
-League Position: 14th


Fulham:

-Kit: Very dark blue(close to black) and white
-Odds: 3.60
-League Position: 10th

In this chart we have the asc/dsc axis running through Leo and Aquarius making our main sigs the Sun and Saturn. It is obvious to me that the Sun is Sunderland and Saturn is Fulham. The Sun can represent red, it is in a mutable sign and their shirt has two colours. Sometimes I also use the Lord of the 10th to confirm my thought when I am unsure. In this case I am not. Saturn represents dark colours and being in Libra gives it a dark/light combination. This fits Fulham perfectly!

Now for the postions of the sigs:

Sunderland:

- The Sun 9 54' Pisces (20 06' Libra)
- Mars 0 56' Leo (29 04 Taurus)


Fulham:

- Saturn 2 54' Libra (27 06' Pisces)
- Venus 21 24' Pisces (8 36' Libra)

The Moon: 8 56' Virgo (21 04' Aries)

Part Of Fortune: 13 26 Aquarius (16 34' Scorpio)

Ok, I am fairly satisfied with the odds. I would have Fulham a little shorter as they are higher in the league but I know Sunderland are decent at home and Fulham are particuarly bad away from home. I use a UK bookmakers and I find their odds for UK games to be much more accurate. In Europe and further afield they tend to make errors which adds a little weight to my wallet when I spot them but I digress.

First thing I notice is that the POF is on the 7th house cusp, surely a good thing? Well no, it doesn't seem to be. I had my suspicions before Sunday and that confirmed it. The POF doesn't do anything when positioned on a house cusp. Frawley theorises that the POF belongs to the ascendant team when using Moon aspects to it. That does seem to be the case and I look forward to the chart I find with the POF on the 1st cusp as the only testimony of victory. The antisca of POF does seem to affect the cusp it is on but I need some more evdence to be confident of it.

The antisca of the Sun is almost on the 4th house cusp just as the antisca of the Moon is on the 10th. I think these are too far way to have any effect. I have found that beyond 2 degrees the effects tend to decrease dramatically, same with a combust planet. So, there are no important planetary placements.

Now we look for aspects. The Moon applies to oppose the Sun. This is bad for Sunderland as an opposition from the Moon hurts them. Remember, the nature of the aspect is important and that aspect must be an applying one. I'm sure I read somewhere that an aspect is considered exact until around 18 minutes of seperation, I have found that to be true in these charts. However the most I have seen is 13 minutes, that's not to say it isn't 18 minutes, I just havent seen it yet.

That's all we have here. Now to judge it. Sunderland started with a middling lead and in the chart Fulham gained an advantage. My prediction:

Draw

Result:

Sunderland 0 - 0 Fulham
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[Konrad]

Here is another chart for the match between Valladolid and Mallorca from the same day but played an hour later and in Spain:

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/5175/valladolidl.jpg (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/valladolidl.jpg/)

Valladolid:

-Kit: Light purple and white
-Odds: 2.40
-League Position: 18th


Mallorca:

-Kit: Blood red and Very dark navy blue
-Odds: 3.00
-League Position: 6th


I have already stated that the UK bookmakers seem to make slight miscalculations in their odds for foreign games. I felt this was the case here. Mallorca are La Liga's surprise package this season. Expected to be mid-table at best, they were currently 6th and putting in some dogged performances against some quality opposition. Valladolid on the other hand are living up to expectations and find themselves dangerously close to being relegated to the second division. With this in mind, I had Mallorca, at the very least, even with Valladolid.

Now in previous replies there has been some debate as to whether colour can be used to assign the sigs. I feel this is the perfect example to show how they are used. In this example we have the Sun and Saturn as sigs. The problem is, the Sun could quite easily represent either team. What to do? Well first I look at the nature of the colours. Valladolid are white and a light purple. I get the feeling of lightness and air when I look at it (lay off the drugs huh?) while the Malorca kit is very dark and intense. the key here is to look at the signs both sigs inhabit. The Sun is dwelling in Pisces. To me this gives an indication of a soft colour. Saturn represents darkness and Mallorca's kit fits the bill there. I'm edging towards the Sun being Valladolid. I can now look to the Lords of the 4th and the 10th to confirm it, though this is a last resort as we really should be able to discern the answer from the main sigs. The Lord of the 10th is Venus in Pisces, this only adds to the evidence in my mind for assigning the Sun to Valladolid. The Lord of the 4th is Mars in Leo. This seals it. Mallorca have a dark, intense kit. Mars in Leo confirms my initial thought of Saturn representing Mallorca. So:


Valladolid:

- The Sun 9 57' Pisces (20 03' Libra)
- Venus 21 24' Pisces (8 36' Libra)


Mallorca:

- Saturn 2 53' Libra (27 07' Pisces)
- Mars 0 56' Leo (29 04' Taurus)


The Moon: 9 34' Virgo (20 26' Aries)

Part Of Fortune: 15 35' Aquarius (14 25' Scorpio)

First, check for planetary placements. I have already discussed the POF on the 7th. Like the previous chart, there are none here.

Now aspects. Again, the Moon applies an opposition to the Sun. This is good for Mallorca. This time, however, the Moon also applies a sextile to the antisca of the POF. This is good for Valladolid. These are the only indications in this chart.

Now to judge it. The teams started even. Mallorca have an aspect from the Moon in their favour while Valladolid have and aspect from the Moon to the antisca of the POF in their favour. It looks even but is it? No, it is not. Remember, aspect to POF from the Moon is similar in strength to an aspect from the Moon to a main sig but this aspect is to the antisca, so that takes away some of it's strength. Mallorca shade it in the chart, it started even so my prediction:

Mallorca win

Result:

Valladolid 1 - 2 Mallorca
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[fensi88]

Here is a drawn game that I did a couple of days ago.
I have found that beyond 2 degrees the effects tend to decrease dramatically, same with a combust planet.
Now we look for aspects. The Moon applies to oppose the Sun. This is bad for Sunderland as an opposition from the Moon hurts them.
Thanks for these rules, I will keep my eye on nature of aspects in future! Frawley did not suggested it, but your experience gives new rule!

[fensi88]

Now in previous replies there has been some debate as to whether colour can be used to assign the sigs. I feel this is the perfect example to show how they are used. In this example we have the Sun and Saturn as sigs. The problem is, the Sun could quite easily represent either team. What to do? Well first I look at the nature of the colours. Valladolid are white and a light purple. I get the feeling of lightness and air when I look at it (lay off the drugs huh?) while the Malorca kit is very dark and intense. the key here is to look at the signs both sigs inhabit. The Sun is dwelling in Pisces. To me this gives an indication of a soft colour. Saturn represents darkness and Mallorca's kit fits the bill there. I'm edging towards the Sun being Valladolid. I can now look to the Lords of the 4th and the 10th to confirm it, though this is a last resort as we really should be able to discern the answer from the main sigs. The Lord of the 10th is Venus in Pisces, this only adds to the evidence in my mind for assigning the Sun to Valladolid. The Lord of the 4th is Mars in Leo. This seals it. Mallorca have a dark, intense kit. Mars in Leo confirms my initial thought of Saturn representing Mallorca.

Excellent color analyze, really. I did not look at rulers of 10 nad 4 but, from this example it is really helpfull! Thanks!

[fensi88]

Remember, aspect to POF from the Moon is similar in strength to an aspect from the Moon to a main sig but this aspect is to the antisca, so that takes away some of it's strength.
Thnaks, I always aks myself how to judge that aspect with antiscia, thanks for clarify that!!

[lillyjgc]

Konrad,
My screen's going crazy with the huge charts.Are you able to reduce them in size so I can put this together in Article form for the Ed Board>?

Cheers
Lilly

[Bulletbobb]

I'm having the same problem. The screen is so wide I have to use the scroll bar to see from left to right.

Also, could you list the actual location of the game, in the usual way? I am doing the charts on my computer and it would be easier if I had the location. For those in Europe this may be common knowledge, but not the case over here.

Thanks,

Bob

[Konrad]

PM me your e-mail and I'll send you them in a smaller resolution.
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[Konrad]

Bob, if you look at the top left of the charts it has the location listed as "Crieff", ignore that and use the co-ordinates underneath. Also the time of the charts are in GMT, so you'll have to remember to use that or adjust it for your own time-zone.
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[Antikythera Mechanism]

I have no ego about it. In fact I couldn't care less if no-one on the planet believes me it works, it is just a personal belief that the knowledge isn't mine to hold back from others and should be shared, hence I'm sharing it.

This is what makes Sports Astrology so much FUN! The whole idea of discovery and working on putting thoughts and ideas together to make an awesome conclusion to ideas brought forth by other astrologers.

Thank you Konrad for everything and thank you Goca for your pages on astrological team colors!

[fensi88]

Also, could you list the actual location of the game, in the usual way? I am doing the charts on my computer and it would be easier if I had the location. For those in Europe this may be common knowledge, but not the case over here.


Here you can find what you are interested for:
http://www.astrosport07.webs.com/konrad.html

[Antikythera Mechanism]

Brilliant Goca!!! Thank you for the Post!

[att75]

Hi Konrad,

thanks for sharing your method.

Were you able to predict surprise results, underdogs beating faves? If yes, could you attach a chart + explanation of a game like this?

I've been experimenting with the game chart method as well, but without consistent results. (Thus at the moment I somewhat share Bob's skepticism.) But, I haven't used the antiscia of the sigs, only that of POF, so it just may be the trick. As for using colors, I've found the astrology of colors quite a mess, and during my last "phase" of game-chart-experiments, I gave the ascendant to the home team, regardless of colors. The results remained inconsistent... But, I'm going to try out your method during the weekend. :) And will report my questions and findings (if any).

[Konrad]

I have been able to predict underdogs beating favourites. Using my method though, there needs to be a couple of strong indications of a win for the underdog. I have been more successful predicting draws in these sorts of circumstances. I'll look out a chart I did last month which demonstrates this.
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[Konrad]

Ok, here's a game involving heavy favourites.

St. Mirren vs Rangers

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4757/stmirren.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/stmirren.jpg/)


St. Mirren:

- Kit: White with black stripes


Rangers:

- Kit: Blue with white shorts


I have no odds for this match as it was done so long ago and as my method was not so advanced, I had no use for them. However, anyone who knows Scottish football will know that Rangers and Celtic are the two dominant teams, so much so that they finish 1st and 2nd in the league almost every season and have won 94 league championships between them since the league was formed. St. Mirren are relegation battlers and will be judged accordingly.

The colours. St. Mirren are white and black. This fits Mercury in Capricorn. Rangers are therefore Jupiter in Pisces which also happens to fit their blue and white colouring.

St. Mirren:

- Mercury 24 42' Capricorn (5 18' Sagittarius)
- Saturn 4 08' Libra (25 52' Pisces)

Rangers:

- Jupiter 4 28' Pisces (25 32' Libra)
- The Sun 17 36' Aquarius (12 24' Scorpio)

The Moon: 23 53' Scorpio (6 17' Aquarius)

POF: 5 37' Aries (24 23' Virgo)


Firstly we look at placements. The Lord of the 4th, the Sun, is in the 10th cusp. I have found these sort of interactions (4th/10th) to be mute in the decision-making, even the Lord of the 1st or 7th being in the opponent's 10th house is limited in it's ability to affect the game. Here I will ignore it. There are no other placements.

Next we look to aspects. First thing we have is a sextile between the Moon and the antisca of the POF, this helps the ASC team and therefore St. Mirren. The next aspect is a sextile to Mercury, again helping St. Mirren. Finally, we have a minor testimony in the trine of the Moon to the antisca of Saturn, Lord of the 10th. Again, this helps St. Mirren.

Now, I judged this chart before I came to the conclusion not to start the teams equal, so I judged St. Mirren to win. A huge upset! This intrigued me, so I watched the game live and even though St. Mirren had plenty chances to fulfill my "prophecy" for them, they decided not to win that game. It ended a draw. In Hindsight (marvelous thing), I can see St. Mirren were in a strong position but not strong enough to win it.

If you are thorough in your analysis of the chart i.e the positions of antisca, aspects etc. then you've done the easy part and are much more geared towards the correct judgement. The difficulty lies in judging whether or not the poorer team receives enough of a boot up the back-side to overturn their starting handicap. As I have said, this is difficult at times and especially so when there is a huge favourite with the chart against them. The only way to deal with this is experience and therefore practice.

Again, I'll say it: I am not 100% accurate with this but when I go back and look at my mistakes, the picture becomes evermore clear and I become more confident it works.
________
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[att75]

Thx for this fine example. Yes, it's clear that Rangers surely were strong faves. And in this case, predicting that Rangers wouldn't win - nicely done!

[Konrad]

Yeah, this sort of thing is pretty handy if you bet on exchanges as you can bet on a team not winning which in this case would have been worth it.
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[att75]

Remember, the nature of the aspect is important and that aspect must be an applying one. I'm sure I read somewhere that an aspect is considered exact until around 18 minutes of seperation, I have found that to be true in these charts. However the most I have seen is 13 minutes, that's not to say it isn't 18 minutes, I just havent seen it yet.

Hi Konrad,

I'm following Rangers-St.Mirren (this duo again... :) ) at the moment. The ASC is at 17LEO00 if I got the chart right. At first sight, I can't see anything very important, no planets near the angles, etc. Although, there are 2 aspects:

Moon-sextile-Saturn(L7) and Moon-trine-Mars(L10)

but these are separating! Does it mean that these aspects simply don't count?

There is one applying aspect though:

Antiscion-Moon-sextile-Venus(L4)

although it's almost 3 degrees wide.

Is there something I missed? I can't see anything that could be enough for St.Mirren not to lose the game. (It's 2:1 at the moment for Rangers.) BTW, I have a hard time assigning the ASC, neither team seems OK to be Leo/Sun, maybe I would give the DSC-Saturn to Rangers because their color is close the dark blue.

[Bulletbobb]

I haven't been following this too closely, but there is one thing you might want to keep in mind. There are far more significant or sensitive factors in astrology that we don't use than there are that we do use. Just because some factor isn't mentioned in Konrad's method, or any other, doesn't mean it/they may not be operating in a particular chart.

A couple of years ago when I was investigating Frawley's method I had a number of charts where the result just didn't fit the outcome as predicted. Now, in a situation like that I could have tried to force the result to fit the method, and I have no doubt that, had I looked hard enough, I would have found that the antiscion of Cupido was biquintile Fortuna, or some such rubbish. Instead, I did up the midpoints, and in several cases found appropriate midpoints right on the angles. I remember two or three where JU/UR was on the MC, one with SU/MA on the IC, and I think one with SA/PL on the DSC.

There is absolutely no reason why antiscia would be valid in a game chart and midpoints not. A priori, I would think it would be the other way around. Another possible factor would be some of the Arabic parts, like death, peril, etc.

I was in touch with a knowledgable sports astrologer some time ago who told me that separating aspects are valid in these charts, if they're close.

Just something to think about.

Regards,

Bob

[Konrad]

Well thanks for the constrcutive comments Bob. How would you suggest we use midpoints more accurately when we use only two main planets as significators or is this another naysayer post? Frawley's method is flawed as he starts the teams as equal when they are obviously not added to that he assigns the favourites the ASC no matter what.

Att75, I have also done this game. I have been experimenting with quincunxes and I have found them to work. In this chart (and almost every other chart for the 15.00 UK games) the Moon is quincunxing the POF, this helps the DSC team. I also assigned the DSC to Rangers. I know these quincunxes work now as I am looking at the results coming in from all over the UK and there is a pattern of the dark coloured teams getting victories or unexpected draws against lighter teams. I'm gonna post a couple of them tonight when I have the inclicnation to write it up.
________
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[Konrad]

Sorry, I forgot to reply about the aspects. I don't use seperating aspects if they are over somewhere around 18 minutes. I can't see an aspect between the antisca of Venus and the Moon on my chart, maybe you could post yours? I am trying these charts without using the Lords of the 4th and 7th for a time to see if I get good results but I will still use the relevant houses.
________
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[Konrad]

One more thing. Bob if you search the skyscript sports forums, I'm sure they have a couple of lengthy posts on using arabic parts in these charts. I have tried using the Part of Victory and Part of Success, I didn't see any effect.
________
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[Bulletbobb]

As I recall my thoughts about midpoints from two years ago, I concluded that the midpoints operated independant of rulerships. Obviously, having JU/UR on the MC would be favorable for the 1st house team, SA/PL the reverse.

You would have to experiment with the Arabic parts in a number of charts. No one factor is enough to decided a game on it's own. I suspect they would require rather small orbs. Fortuna has larger orbs because of the factors in it's makeup. At least some Arabic parts have been found valid in astrology in general, from which one can conclude that they should work in sports also. Trouble with any of these things is that once you open the door you're likely to get trampled by the horde of 'things' that come dashing out. That's why I never followed up on the midpoints idea. Which ones to use? Where to draw the line?

Why do you consider my posts to be in the naysayer category? Because I'm not a fan of the color method? If so, I have alot of company, as I don't know of anyone 'over here' that uses it. I'd even consider it myself if someone could get the color assignments somewhat in line with basic principles.

Time for lunch,

Bob

[att75]

I can't see an aspect between the antisca of Venus and the Moon on my chart, maybe you could post yours?

My mistake: I meant antiscia of Moon 26CP01 - sextile - Venus 28PI52.

I am trying these charts without using the Lords of the 4th and 7th for a time to see if I get good results but I will still use the relevant houses.

You mean without the lords of 4th and 10th?

... a pattern of the dark coloured teams getting victories or unexpected draws against lighter teams. I'm gonna post a couple of them tonight when I have the inclicnation to write it up

I'm looking forward to it.

[Konrad]

I don't consider all your posts to be naysayer, just a couple.

I've never really looked into midpoints much so of course I've never tested them and though intriguing, I don't plan to any time soon. As you rightly say, when you introduce one new method into your existing set-up, you open alot of new doors and adding midpoints to the mix would, for sure, makes things too confusing for me just now.

I understand your concerns about using colour and I have had problems with it myself but funnily enough not for the reasons you may have. It drives me insane when a team play in a kit that they don't usually play in or I have bad information on their colours; it ruins everything.

As to some principles, it isn't as hard as you may think. Try not to be over-awed by it. Each planet goes against one other all of the time (apart from Saturn which goes against the Sun and the Moon). This makes it much easier. The planets all take some time to go through their current signs too (I don't use the Moon as a significator) so there is ample opportunity to get it right. Another thing is that even though in a perfect world both planets match both teams, we only need one to match up. The other is assigned by default. In general:

Sun vs Saturn: we're looking for light vs dark repectively. Sun does represent red, yellow, gold, purple and Saturn black, brown, dark green but if I had a light blue and a blood red I can be almost certain that the Sun is the light colour and the Saturn the dark.

Mercury vs Jupiter: Mercury is rather mutable, so it takes on the colours of it's current sign alot. It is white and yellow. Jupiter is expansive and vibrant and so are it's kits. Bright reds, deep blues, purples. Again though, each planet's characteristics can be found in the relevant kits. Black may not fit either planet strictly, it is more likely to be Mercury as black doesn't scream expansion or vibrance to me. You often get red vs blue in football matches. In this case they are both Jupiter colours but looking at the nature of them, red is more vibrant and more akin to Jupiter than Mercury.

Venus vs Mars: Calm vs intensity. These selections are pretty simple. Colour-wise Venus is soft and gentle while Mars is deep, dark and intense.

While I do admit I get some wrong at times, this is a simple method once you practice it and think "outside the box". The colours don't have to be 100% matched to what you've got on paper but each planet has a flavour, a feel, as does each kit. It's just a case of matching them up and as I said, it takes around a month for the quickest planets to move through a sign so you have plenty of time to see how that sign affects the selection.
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[Konrad]

My mistake: I meant antiscia of Moon 26CP01 - sextile - Venus 28PI52.



You mean without the lords of 4th and 10th?



I'm looking forward to it.


We don't move antisca towards planets, only planets towards antisca.

Yes, without them. I am wondering how much effect they actually have. The placements of planets on the cusps have an effect, I sure, but I'm not so sure about the Lords. The thing is though, to know for sure I need many games kicking off in the same area at the same time to really test it and sometimes that takes a while.
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[fensi88]

One more thing. Bob if you search the skyscript sports forums, I'm sure they have a couple of lengthy posts on using arabic parts in these charts. I have tried using the Part of Victory and Part of Success, I didn't see any effect.
Do you work with them as points, or doing with their dispositors? In "normal" horary chart it is dispositor that counts.

[Konrad]

I tried both but I wasn't gaining any information from the chart that I couldn't find using the main significators and the Moon.
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[fensi88]

OK, thanks.

[att75]

The Almeria-Barcelona match ended 2:2 yesterday, which is quite a surprise as the visitors were strong faves. I followed the game on TV so I know that there was a serious delay: the game began at appr. 20:13 instead of 20:00. It's interesting because the ascendant would have been Virgo hadn't the game been delayed this much. But at 20:13, the ascendant was already Libra. So L1=Venus, L7=Mars. L1 Venus was just outside the 7th cusp (so in the 6th house - I guess this is what outside the 7th means). I guess this supported the L7-Mars team. Almeria was mainly read, Barcelona yellow - Almeria Mars, Barca Venus. I hope this analysis is not a total fluke. :)

[Konrad]

I've just looked at that chart. Venus rules Barca as they played in yellow and Mars rules Almeria as they are red. In the chart Venus is on the cusp which means they control that house giving them the advantage but Venus is in Pisces and the cusp in Aries. Being in different signs negates that effect. Both the planet and the cusp must be in the same sign.

If the significator is in the house it is controlled by that house, if the significator is outside that house but within a couple of degrees, it controls that house

The testimony which gets Almeria the draw is a quincunx between the Moon and the antisca of the POF.

I was keeping an eye on that game and I noticed the delay, so I just forgot about it. If the game kicked-off at the correct time, the significators would have been Mercury and Jupiter and the Moon squared both of them. It's crazy to think that the game result may have been different if they had kicked-off at the scheduled time. I guess we'll never know what would have happened but it makes you think.
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[Konrad]

Oh, I was going to post this earlier but I forgot:

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/

It is a great site. You can search a team in the search panel, pull up their screen and half-way down on the right side you have a section "next fixture" clicking on the "V" logo will bring up their next game and if there are any interesting stats about the teams (such as ****** haven't won in the last 3 games) it will list them under their name. Very handy when looking at form.
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[Antikythera Mechanism]

Hi All,
I probably missed the posting in which it shows the colors of the Futbol team colors- so I was curious and found this about team colors....

http://www.soccer.com/Navigation.process?Ne=1&Srp=24&N=4294958603

if anyone has a better link I would love to see it :happy:

[Konrad]

Thanks for the link! I also find wikipedia handy but some of the more exotic countries' teams are not fully updated kit-wise.
________
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[Antikythera Mechanism]

Wow Thank you for that information- you are welcome to the information about the link!

[Bulletbobb]

Konrad:

It appears that your method shares a number of points with Frawley's, yet differs in others. You have never stated directly what the points of agreement are.

Below I have inserted a list I put together a couple of years ago when I was testing Frawley's method. I went through his examples carefully, and I believe this list is a complete summary of his method. I would be interested in learning of those areas where you disagree with himl.

BTW, the formatting of the original was not entirely preserved when pasted into this window. If anyone wants the cleaner version let me know and I'll see what can be done.

Bob




From Sports Astrology
by John Frawley


I. House Placement
A. Planets
1. A planet on a cusp controls that house
2. A planet inside a cusp is controlled by that house
3. Orb: 2-3 degrees at most (what's important is where it's at, not where it's going)
4. Planets apply or separate from cusps
5. A planet either on or inside its own house is strengthened but not so much as if its opponents planet is there.
6. If retrograde and in enemy house it makes no difference.
7. If retrograde and on enemy cusp it is still positive but not as strong
8 Antiscia follow the same rules as a planet, but not quite as strong.
9 A planet close to a cusp counts only if it rules a house (p.110)
10. He ignores new planets even if they rule one of the key houses and are on a cusp (p.110)
11. Ditto for aspects to key rulers by new planets.


B. The Moon
1. The Moon doesn't stand for either team: it shows the flow of events.
2. The Moon on either side of the 1st cusp or 10th cusp is for the favorite
3. The Moon on either side of the 4th cusp or 7th cusp is for the underdogs
4. The same for its antiscion
5. Other placements are irrelevant.


C. Fortuna
1. Use the house of the antiscion of Fortuna, not its bodily placement
2. Same rules as the Moon
3. Can be very powerful

II. Aspects
A. Planetary aspects
1. Ignore aspects between Ruler of 1st and 7th or 4th and 10th

B. Moons aspects
0. Aspects only to the four key house rulers.
1. Are very important
2. Use orb of 5-6 degrees
3. The end of the sign is the limit for aspects
4. The nature of the aspect seems not to matter. Uses major aspects.
5. Moons final aspect to ruler wins.
6. Bodily conjunctions are usually final. Don't take Moon past a conjunction.
7. If Moon aspects R1 that favors the favorite, regardless of the planet or aspect.
And so for the other aspects.
8. Aspects to antiscia are less reliable. Conjunctions or oppositions are strong.
9. The Moon can be taken past antiscial conjunctions unless the conjunction is at 5-6 degrees. Then it's usually final.
10. Long-range antiscial conjunctions are final, short-range ones are not. (p.112)
11. If the Moon is R1 or R7 keep the Moon as the flow of events; use its dispositor as ruler of that house
12. If the Moon is R10 or R4 keep the Moon as the flow of events; do without a ruler
(Ex.: If Cancer rises and Moon is in Scorpio and Mars is R10, use Mars as R1 (as dispositor of the Moon) and do without R10.)
He is rarely confident of charts where Moon is either R1 or R7. Dual role causes confusion


C. Fortuna
1. Keep Fortuna still: things come to aspect her. Except nodes.
2. Lunar aspects to Fortuna:
a) Cnj, Tri, or Sxt Fortuna or its antision favor the favorites
b) Sqr or Opp to Fortuna or its antiscion favors the underdogs
c) Use same oranges as before
d) Aspects to Fortuna or its antiscion are final regardless of other aspects it may make within its range.
3. Aspects by key rulers to Fortuna
a. R1 to Cnj Fortuna or its antiscion favors the favorites
b. R1 to Opp Fortuna or its antiscion favors the underdogs
c. R7 to Cnj Fortuna or its antiscion favors the underdogs
d. R7 to Opp Fortuna favors the underdogs (he's not certain of this)
e. R7 to Opp the antiscion of Fortuna favors the underdogs
f. Use only Cnj and Opp. Orb about 5 degrees, about 1 degree for 'new' planets
g. Watch for refranation and other prohibitions
(if R1 makes another aspect before Fortuna there is no aspect)
h. Aspects by R4 or R10 to Fortuna aren't decisive by themselves.
4. Dispositor of Fortuna
a. If dispositor applies to Cnj of Fortuna it favors the favorites
b. If dispositor applies to Opp of Fortuna it favors the underdogs
c. If dispositor of Fortuna is R10 or R4 give priority to its role as dispositor
d. If it is R1, R7, or Moon, forget it as dispositor


D. Nodes
1. North node good. South node bad
2. House placement or conjunctions to angles seem not to matter (p.115)
3. But significators are helped or harmed. Powerful testimony.
4. Fortuna conjunct north node helps favorites; Fortuna conjunct south node helps the underdogs (Cnj only. Orb: 2 degrees at most)
5. Moon doesn't belong to either side, so conjunctions don't matter
6. Applying to or by doesn't apply. The nodes are 'csnters of goodness or nastiness'. (p.110)

E. Antiscia
1. Keep antiscia still. The Moon and planets apply to them (p.110)
2. If an antiscion and the node are within orb they are conjunct regardless of which applies. (It's the closeness that counts (p.112))


III. Combustion
A. Is destructive. Orb: 2 degrees
B. Fortuna combust is good for the underdogs
C. Moon combust means nothing


IV. Retrogradation
A. No effect, but note direction of movement


V. Fixed stars
B. No effect


VI. The New Planets
A. Orb: 1 degree, max (on p.94 he uses 1.5 degrees)
1. Pluto
a. destructive if ona key cusp
b. If Cnj or Opp Fortuna or its antiscion or dispositor it favors the underdog
c. Hurts the favorites, even if on the 2nd cusp.
2. Neptune
a. Inconsistant, but make hurt the favorites. Watch this.
3. Uranus
a. Inconsistant
b.If applying 'immediately' to MC strongly favors the favorites
c. Conjuct Fortuna it favors the favorites
d. Opposite Fortuna it favors the underdogs
e. Orb: 1 degree max
4. Saturn
a. Unless R1 or R7 it is afflictive
b. This takes precedence over being R10 or R4, etc.


VII. Miscl
A. If Mercury and Jupiter rules the angles, use R1 and R7 and do without R4 and R10.

[Konrad]

Ok, I'm currently testing out a couple of new ideas at the moment but I'll leave them out and just list what I did as of the weekend.

House Placement:

Agree with all but:

3. I only use two degrees at most for the Moon, the main sigs, the POF and their antisca's.
5. I've not found this to make too much differnce
7. Doesn't make much difference.
8. I agree but I am not 100% on that yet.
9. Yea but Uranus and Pluto are malefic and have to be within a degree or so to have an effect. I've not had enough opportunity to test Neptune.

The Moon:

Agree with it all.

Fortuna:

Agree with most but I'm not sure about the body placement. I also use a 1 degree limit on it's antisca.

The Moon's aspects:

Disagree with:

2. I'm experimenting with a number of orbs, I don't see any reason for a limit on the orb, before the end of the sign that is.
4. The nature does matter.
5. No, I find aspects are cumulative.
6. No.
7. See no. 4.
8. All aspects matter. I'm sure Frawley belives this too. It is the aspects of the significators to POF that he only uses conjunction and opposition.
9. Again, I'm using larger orbs.
10. Nothing is final.

Fortuna' aspects:

Agree with most of it, especially the nature of the aspect. Again, I'm not using orbs at the moment. Not seeing much effect when a sig contacts Fortuna.

Nodes:

Disagree with all of it. I have some evidence that the nodes on relevant house cusps effect the game, needs more testing though.

Combustion:

I'd maybe even limit it to 1 degree and it is very destructive. Fortuna combust means nothing.

Outer planets:

As I said before, Pluto and Uranus malefics, Neptune needs more testing.
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[Bulletbobb]

Thanks for the clarification.

What do you mean when you say the Moon's effects are cumulative?

Bob

[Konrad]

I mean I add them up to give the respective strengths.
________
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[Bulletbobb]

In order for the color method to work you have to know in advance what color uniform the team will be wearing for the tonights game. Just out of curiosity I went to nba.com, and then to one or two of the individual team pages, and nowhere could I find any mention of what jersey they would wearing tonight.

Perhaps there is a different practice 'over there'?

Bob

[Konrad]

No, 'over here' we have home kits and away kits. When a team is at home they wear their home kits as they do when they are away unless both home kits clash, then the visiting team wears their away kit. As I have already said though, some predicitons get messed up by the teams wearing unexpected kits. Fensi sometimes e-mails the clubs if he is unsure.
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[att75]

Below I have inserted a list I put together a couple of years ago when I was testing Frawley's method. I went through his examples carefully, and I believe this list is a complete summary of his method.

Thanks Bob for inserting this list, it's a great help for me, as a basis for Konrad's method. I don't have the Frawley book, I've "heard" that his method is not really working (remember Banefranco's thread about this) so I didn't buy (order) it. Thx again!

[Konrad]

Yeah, I remember reading that thread and it also stopped me from buying it for a while. That was a mistake. I think Frawley is great. He is entertaining and teaches well. His method isn't perfect but it is a great foundation. I would recommend anyone interested in sports astrology to have it.
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[Bulletbobb]

As for Frawley, I agree with Konrad, and Franco, for that matter. For all its failings it is by far the best there is on sports astrology.

Konrad, you have me puzzled re the colors. You say that your teams have a home kit and a road kit. OK, it is the same here, except that at least some of the teams have an alternate kit that they can wear if they want. The NY Jets football team, for example, sometimes wears their old NY Titans uniform when they're down on their luck.

In any event, I don't see how the color method could work at if if the teams always wear the same home/ road colors. There would be no ability to shift the colors to match the condition of the team, which I assume is the basis for the system.

Perhaps I misunderstand the application of the method?

Bob

[Konrad]

Yes, you do. You only change kits when both of the home kits are similar. For example, Chichester United play in red, they are playing at home against Walford Rovers who also play in red. As Chichester are at home, they wear their home kit and as there is a clash, Walford wear thier away kit.

A drawback is at times, especially in a continental competition, certain teams wear a 3rd kit which is different to both their home kit and away kit (I think a way of justifying it to their fans to pay for the 3rd kit). This is an unfortunate circumstance and is why I do not bet on Champions League and Europa League games. If you do not know, these are the competitions where the top teams in each country play in a trans-continental competition in between their domestic games.
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[Konrad]

Well as informative as that last post was, I feel I misunderstood you're question. I don't quite understand your problem with the colours? I assume that it is each team will always be the same planet when playing at home? I don't quite get what you mean when you say you can't shift the colours to match the condition of the teams.
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[Bulletbobb]

Now you have me confused!

Say you have Aries-Libra on the horizon. The home team plays in red, the visitor in pale blue. The home team is the favorite, as they usually are. Then just before the game the home teams' leading scorer breaks his leg, and the team announces that he will be playing with his leg in a cast. Using the favorite as the first house team this situation presents no problem. The spread on the home team would drop through the floor, and they would be relegated to the 7th house, as the new underdog. I assume the colors method will have some way of dealing with this situation. If they wore the same red uniforms as before the accident it wouldn't make sense as they certainly aren't the same team as before. If the team has only the one uniform there is no way they can adapt to changing circumstances like this.

Bob

[Konrad]

You're looking at it in too detailed a manner, try looking at it like an eagle, soaring high above.

If the red team's star player breaks his leg it makes no difference as they still play in red. If you look at it like a horary question. I ask: "will I get the bank loan I applied for?". The chart says "no". Two days before I am due to to hear from the bank, I win the lottery. I don't need the loan anymore and the chart was correct. This may be shown by a retrograde significator or such like. Same with these games, the chart for the game will show the red team being weaker if that injury did happen to effect their chances that much and it will show it as soon as you know the time and place of the game.
________
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[Bulletbobb]

I actually thought of that as I was typing my post. It's the same for the 'standard' method of putting the home team in the first house: that assignment was made months in advance when the schedule was made.

It actually leads to an interesting philosophical point. Let's say that both the HT and color methods agree that the HT is in the first house. Let's say that a day or so before the game the line was HT-6 (i.e., they're the favorite). The favorite method would then agree that the HT is in the first house. Now shortly before the game the star player breaks his leg. This is probably an unusual occurance, but not rare. Someone is injured in practice, etc. The spread may go to HT+6, making them the underdog (this is a pretty dramatic swing, but I suppose it could happen). By the favorite method the HT would now go in the 7th. But by the HT and color methods there would be no change. Therefore it follows that by those methods everything that happens in connection with the game was set by fate at the day the schedule was set, perhaps months before. There is no point in trying to correlate the current status of the teams with anything in the chart, because it was all set by fate months before.

The favorite method would view the situation very differently, and would say that one has to monitor the current status of the team carefully and relate the factors in the chart to what is happening to the teams.

Basic astrological teachings on contests, like battles, going back to ancient times, hold that the more aggressive team (army), the one that launches the first attack, throws the first spear, etc., gets the first house. This is why the challenger in a duel gets the first: you have to have a pretty strong Aries/Mars to challenge someone to a duel. The analogy of launching a battle doesn't hold up 100% in sports, but it is clear, in our hypothetical example, that the HT is unlikely to be in a particularly Martial frame of mind, whereas the visitor see an opportunity to pounce on a weakened opponent and gain an easy victory. Thus the exercise would favor the 'favorite' method.

Well this is all very interesting, but it is keeping from my research!

Bob

[Konrad]

Therefore it follows that by those methods everything that happens in connection with the game was set by fate at the day the schedule was set, perhaps months before. There is no point in trying to correlate the current status of the teams with anything in the chart, because it was all set by fate months before.



There is an example earlier in this thread where Barcelona (heavy favourites) actually drew a game which kicked off 13 minutes late. This 13 minutes was enough time for the ASC/DSC axis to change signs therefore changing the sigs. We can't say for certain that they would have won the game if it had kicked off at the scheduled time but if the astrology is to be believed, they would have.

The question of fate is an interesting one. I don't think we can say "Jupiter is being trined by the Moon, so Chesterfield will win" but rather "Chesterfield are fated to win this game". The Moon trining Jupiter is one of God's/The Divine's/The Universe's methods of communicating this to us rather than actually having any effect on the match itself.
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[att75]

Hi Konrad,

Chelsea-Inter in the C.L. tonight: Chelsea is blue, Inter is white. L1=Venus, L7=Mars. How would you assign the colors, in a case like this? (Venus is in Aries, Mars is in Leo. L10 is the Moon, its dispositor is Mars, L4 is Saturn.) My problem is, both team are "good for" Venus but neither are good for Mars. L4, L10 and the other parameters are not helping me. You wrote that "Colour-wise Venus is soft and gentle while Mars is deep, dark and intense." Does it mean that Chelsea should be assigned to Mars here? As blue is darker than white? The blue of Chelsea is soft and gentle, I guess, and it's strange to give Mars to a blue team. What's your opinion? My other guess is, as you said it was enough to find one corresponding team-planet duo, the other was default, one can say "Chelsea is blue so they are Venus, period".

[fensi88]

This is really hard to asign...but as Konrad said if you are not sure look at h10 and h4 lords.
So we have lord 10 Moon, both Ve and Moon=white, so ASC is Inter.
Ma can mean black, brown also, so Ma is darker then Ve. Lord h4 is Sa, Sa is associated with dark shades, blue, http://www.astrosport07.webs.com/ASTROPLANETSCOLORS.HTML
so I would asign Chelsea to DSC. .

[Mtle640]

I use a similar method to Konrad. I also consider some fixed stars, parallel aspects to the main significators, main angles and POF but I am still experimenting.

For that Chelsea vs Inter Milan champions league match I assigned Libra ASC to Inter (white jersey). Chelsea' blue was slightly dark so to me Inter's lighter kit fits Libra ASC better. Both kit can usually be assigned to Libra but here Inter's kit fits better. Also, moon represent white/silvery shades and here we have moon conjunct venus(L1).

Venus (ASC ruler) aspecting conjunct 7th H cusp so I predicted Inter Milan win or draw. Odds were 1.63 - 4.15 - 5.95 (Chelsea-Draw-Inter). Inter was the underdog. Match result was Inter Milan win (0 - 1).

[att75]

On that evening, when Chelsea played against Inter, there was an other game, namely Sevilla-CSKA Moscow, which ended 1:2. Kick off times, as far as I know, were the same. Which means that the away underdogs have won. Sevilla played in white, CSKA in - mainly - red. So Sevilla - Venus, CSKA - Mars. The strange thing is - one white team wins despite being an underdog, the other white team loses despite being fave. O/c the odds can be misleading, as Konrad has already stated. Inter is a very good team, and IMO 5.95 was too big for an Inter win. But still, Sevilla failed to win under similar planetary influences. I tried to analyze those charts back then (I can't cast them at the moment): it was probably the exact position of the 1st (and 7th) cusps and the rulers near them, which made the difference.

[Konrad]

Yeah it could be. That one stumped me too. I was looking, if the Sevilla game kicked off 2 minutes early, the Moon would conjunct the 7th cusp before Venus, giving the 7th house team the win in the chart. I didn't watch the game, so I don't know when it kicked off exactly.
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[fensi88]

According to this site kick off was right on time:
http://www.easyodds.com/compareodds/football/european-cup-competitions/champions-league/matches/p/279020/g/246/sevilla-v-cska-moscow.html

[Konrad]

Well then, I have no idea; either the kick-off was two minutes early or this one is an an anomalous game. :)
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[banefranco]

Hello to everybody,
I will just use this peace of time to inform all of astrologers that the first book about astrological prediction in sports written in Serbian with the only clear method in predicting soccer matches in the world, is published.
As you all can notice I have been absent since.....but I wish all the good to you and wish somebody to find easier and better way for prediction in sports.
Rgds

[att75]

Hello Banefranco,

congratulations on your book!

I hope it will be translated into Hungarian or English sometime. :) Well, actually, Hungarian is a joke from my part, it wouldn't worth it, but English... That would be fine.

[Mtle640]

For the Sevilla vs CSKA Moscow game. CSKA was in red and blue stripe shirt, blue pants, blue socks. See the pictures on the Uefa site. Also on the wiki page you can see the kit colors. Clearly you can see that they are mainly blue not red.

Mostly blue mixed with some red fits perfectly with Venus in Aries, you can trust me on that because I have seen it over and over last couple of weeks in charts I did.
Sevilla was white with some small red and yellow patches, big red numbers and black socks so they would be Mars in Leo.

Inter was at 5.95 on Pinnaclesports. Please go see by yourself at betexplorer.com in the results tab. Odds from 5 to 6 was reasonable considering the circumstances. On a neutral ground Chelsea would already be the clear favorite vs Inter but here Chelsea is playing on home ground. This is the second leg, first leg was 0 - 1 Inter so it was a must win situation for Chelsea at home.

[Konrad]

Maybe you're right about the colours but Venus is green and white, I'm not sure where the blue fits? One thing is for sure, I'm having a hard time assigning them right now as most games I bet on are Mars vs Venus and with Venus in Aries, it's making it very difficult.

Yeah about the odds. Games involving English teams against European teams tend to be heavily weighted towards the English teams. This is because most people in the UK will bet on the home team. This skews the odds as the bookies want people betting on both teams, so they lower the odds on the English team and raise them on the away team. There is no way Inter should be that much of an underdog playing anyone on the planet. A more accurate refelection of the odds would have been if we looked at a recent Chelsea vs Manchester United game and applied those.
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[att75]

Well, CSKA being Venus makes more sense, that's for sure. :) Your explanation is interesting.

As for the Inter odds (BTW the first game was 2:1, not 1:0) I do know it was around 5,95 - I only think it was too big. The odds of CSKA was almost the same, around 6,1. For me, their win was a way bigger surprise than Inter's.

[banefranco]

Thank you Att 75, It is worth to translate in Hungarian language also, I am working on it. But one suggestion to all of you here if you are interested in. Why do not you try to test my table of quantity of light to make decision where to place teams just becouse the light is basis for the next - colour. '' AND THERE WAS LIGHT''.Jerseys are at first lighter or darker than they are coloured. The colour Table is also included in my book becouse it does make remarkable results undoubtely but it has limits esspecially when you have mix-coloured jerseys. Well that is only my suggestion.
Anyway I will be glad to read the whole this thema MY METHOD as I have not had a time...

[banefranco]

Ok, I have read this thread and can say that in many things seem to be that I was right. For Frawley s book I can say that I already strated from that book and I do not want to say anything further. As I noticed here, many of his conclusions were wrong. Is he great or not that is too personal opinion.
But I can say that even we make mystakes it also can lead to prosperity. The point is to find the perfect method, perfect reading the chart, any chart that is all. The question is about us, astrology is the perfect science itself and I agree it cannot be wrong.The reason I wrote the book was just to offer the other point of understanding the universe as I noticed here that there are some unindentified space object like Uranus, Pluto and that confusing planet Neptun. Frawley recognises only 7 objects. That makes sence. But there is something worth noting that the esiest way is to use only 7 planets for the beggining of prediction when you make team placements. It will also lead to mystakes somethimes when Mercury rules Virgo but that is another question. Frawley claims that there are only Ptolomy aspects, I do recognise quincunx as well and I have that kind of aspect in my Aspect s table precizely explained. I use just some differences about detriments, falls, exaltation, some more aspects just becouse thay exists and are so visible. The use of antiscia is restricted in this area of predicting but it is also another question. Finnaly I think that every book is worth to read as we do not have the opportunity '' TRY BEFORE YOU BUY'' even if it is wrong ,becouse it can motivate us to be better.

[banefranco]

Well, here is the link to my temporary site just to inform how does cover print looks like http://www.astrofudbal.freewebsitehosting.com (http://www.astrofudbal.freewebsitehosting.com/). One more observation about some Arabian parts concrete Point of victory. I also have not had any results by using it. Even it was more logical to expect result from point of Victory instead Point of Fortune just becouse Point of Victory precizely signifies what it is. Fortune is more spiritual and it can signifies also the team who will not lose but not neccesery win.

[Mtle640]

Since Venus is in Aries I try to be more selective. I look for teams with light colors mixed with red playing against uniformely dark teams. Detroit Pistons home, Philadelphia 76ers home, Montreal Canadiens away and Columbus Blue Jackets away are some good examples of appearance that usually associate very well with Venus in Aries from my experience.

Blues (the lighter the better) usually associate well with Venus. One simple reason is because it does not fit with Mars (the other teams significator) unless it is darker blue. Mars in Libra and Venus in Aries is more complicated as we have seen.

[Konrad]

Mars in Libra and Venus in Aries is more complicated as we have seen.

I agree completely and unfortunately I think we'll have the same problems when each of the other planets are in their opposition's signs.
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[Konrad]

Yeah, if you want football then use Flashscore.com for the odds and http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/ for the team's form.

I wouldn't follow what I have up there though, I've been using a newer version and, if I wasn't so lazy, I would have posted it by now.

The jist is:

Take the Moon through to the end of it's current sign but stop at a conjunction to a significator, the ASC/DSC axis or POF. Also a conjunction to the antiscia of the POF and sigs.

Use the last aspect the Moon makes as the indication of victory.

Uranus, Neptune and Pluto on an angle, but inside the house, is a strong indication of defeat. Use orb of 1 - 1.5 degrees. This is as strong as the Moon's aspect.

Ignore the Frawley-inspired sigs being in control of the houses - it doesn't work.

No aspect, then follow the odds. Heavy favs will win, even games will draw etc.

That's basically it.

The non-astrology is the hardest part. If a team is heavy favourites (1.9 and under in the odds) and the Moon's last aspect is with one of underdogs' sigs, then that is usually a draw. Obviously if the chart shows the favourites winning then they will.

The form is important too as I've seen odds which are fairly even and a team being stronger in the chart but there being a draw. You'll usually find then that one team is on a significant winning streak or a significant losing streak .

The key is to know how well matched the teams are; not very easy if you know nothing about the sport but the odds, form guides and league tables should point you in the right direction. Then you just have to deliberate that against what the chart is saying.
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[Konrad]

You're welcome.

If I get to it tomorrow, I'll post a whole round of games played on Saturday in England demonstrating it.
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[fensi88]

Take the Moon through to the end of it's current sign but stop at a conjunction to a significator, the ASC/DSC axis or POF. Also a conjunction to the antiscia of the POF and sigs.

Use the last aspect the Moon makes as the indication of victory
I would like to see some example where you did that. Thanks.

[Konrad]

Ok, here?s a demonstration of my updated method using games played in England on the 20 Mar 2010. All games kicked-off at 15.00 GMT.

Blackpool vs Crystal Palace

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2239/blackpool.jpg (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/blackpool.jpg/)



Blackpool
Kit : Orange shirt, white shorts
Odds: Favourites (numbers are making me too indecisive, ala? Frawley general terms will do)


Crystal Palace
Kit: Blue, red shirt, Blue shorts
Odds: Underdogs

Here, Blackpool are assigned the Sun and Venus, Crystal Palace get Saturn and Mars.
The Moon?s last aspect is a conjunction to the antiscia of Mars, Crystal Palace?s co-significator. This makes them stronger and gives them the draw.

Blackpool 2 ? 2 Crystal Palace



Doncaster vs Sheffield United
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9404/doncastero.jpg (http://img718.imageshack.us/i/doncastero.jpg/)


Doncaster
Kit: Red and white.
Odds: Slight favourites by way of home advantage.


Sheffield United
Kit: Black
Odds: Slight underdogs

Doncaster are the Sun and Venus, Sheffield United are Saturn and Mars. Again, the Moon?s last aspect is a conjunction with the antiscia of Mars. However, Neptune is within orb of affecting the 7th house and makes them, namely Sheffield United, weaker. Therefore it is a draw.

Doncaster 1 ? 1 Sheffield United




Ipswich vs Barnsley

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2331/ipswich.jpg (http://img718.imageshack.us/i/ipswich.jpg/)


Ipswich
Kit: Blue and white
Odds: Favourites


Barnsley
Kit: Red
Odds: Underdogs

The colours here, I am unsure about. I never used to pay much attention to the sign which a planet is in to decide but my recent experiences with Venus in Aries has forced me to re ?think that. Both teams could be either one and, as we?ll see, it didn?t really matter in this situation. For arguments sake, we?ll give Ipswich Saturn and Mars and Barnsley get the Sun and Venus. The Moon?s last aspect is a conjunction to the antiscia of Mars. Here Neptune is close to the 7th cusp. Before I said that it had to be inside the house to make a difference. Truth is, I did only a couple of these charts on Saturday, the rest I?m doing as I write and this and the next one seem to prove me wrong in that respect. The outer planets are malefic to a house cusp in or out of the house with an orb of around 1 degree.

Ipswich 1 -0 Barnsley


Middlesbrough vs Reading

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/7191/middles.jpg (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/middles.jpg/)



Middlesbrough
Kit: Red and White
Odds: Home advantage making them slight favourites


Reading
Kit: Blue and white
Odds: Slight underdogs

Once again, the sigs could be applied to either and once again, it doesn?t matter. We?ll give Middlesbrough the Sun and Venus, Reading are given Saturn and Mars. The Moon?s last aspect is to the antiscia of Mars and Neptune is close to the 7th cusp. About equal in the chart,, about equal before the game. Draw.

Middlesbrough 1 ? 1 Reading




West Brom vs Preston

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/5606/westbrom.jpg (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/westbrom.jpg/)


West Brom
Kit: Very dark blue and white
Odds: Favourites


Preston
Kit: Red
Odds: Underdogs

West Brom are Saturn and Mars, Preston are the Sun and Venus. The Moon?s last aspect is a conjunction to the antiscia of Mars. West Brom win.

West Brom 3 ? 2 Preston


An d that is that!

Just a couple of things. Frawley says that a planet in or on an angle either controls or is controlled by that house. That is untrue and once I realised this, it made everything else fall into place. I was unsure about whether the moon being in a house affects it. I had some proof last night that it does but I need to wait till I see pictures from the games to confirm that. I will also test it some more regardless. The Moon also stops at a conjunction to either the ASC or DSC but, strangely, not the MC or IC.

If anyone tries this out and finds it doesn?t work, please post it on this thread and I?ll retest wherever there may be a problem.
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[Bulletbobb]

I see what you're doing for games that end in a tie, but how about some examples of games that don't end that way?

Over here we don't have any ties, and I would imagine that the great majority of your games don't end that way either.

Bob

[Konrad]

I'd say a fair percentage end in a draw.

For games that don't end in a draw, we'd be looking for teams that are even with one being stronger in the chart, or teams that are stronger being stronger. Just apply the method above.

I'm not so sure how applying colours will work in US sports though; I've read that you guys wear light colours at home and dark away? That would mean that every home team would be stronger in a specific round of games. Maybe someone with more knowledge of US sports could test it out on them though?
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[Konrad]

I've just done a quick survey of the last 3 days' games played world-wide and there were 19%, 27% and 10% of draws. The list will not be fully accurate but I think the two extremes do show what parameters we are working within.
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[Bulletbobb]

I found an excellent site that has all the NBA uniforms and logos, both home and away.

The way it seems to work is, the team has a set of team colors. At home the uniform is almost all white, with some use of the team colors, perhaps in the name, number, stripes, etc. But the overall impression is white.

On the road the uniform again uses the team colors, and the predominant impression is color, usually rather dark or intense.

Therefore, for the color system to work for the NBA it would have to accommdate white uniforms on the home teams and various colors on the road teams.

I'll try your system over the weekend and let you know if it works.

Bob

[Konrad]

Ok, thank you. Perhaps as the standard colour is white, the other colours present in the home shirt should be used as indicators?
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[att75]

An interesting example from today: Roma-Inter 2:1. Starting odds from bet365: 2,75 / 3 / 2,75. As far as I know, the game must have started between 18:00 and 18:01, so there wasn't a serious delay. ASC: 01LIB56 / the Moon: 03VIR44 / antiscia-L1-Venus: 04VIR57.

"Take the Moon through to the end of it's current sign but stop at a conjunction to a significator, the ASC/DSC axis or POF. Also a conjunction to the antiscia of the POF and sigs."

So I guess, we take the Moon until the ant.-Venus and there's the conjunction, that's it. No aspects during the "road". :) So, the ASC (L1) team is supported. But who is that? Roma: red shirts, white shorts. Inter: dark-blue+black striped shirts, dark-blue shorts.

So again, a little confusion - at least for me - with the colors. L1=Venus / L7 = Mars / L10=Mercury (Moon disp.) / L4=Saturn. One could say, Roma -> red -> Mars, but that's not OK as Roma has won. Maybe the good way of thinking here is, Venus is in Aries, so that's from where the red of the home team comes. L4-Saturn is dark, which is good for Inter, whose outfit gave a dark impression (dark-blue, black). The other thing or idea is, the light table that Banefranco mentioned. Like here: Mars is darker than Venus, Inter was darker than Roma, so Roma=Venus.

In other cases, the new method seemed to be working well, for example, Wolves (slight underdogs) were supported from above and managed to snatch a draw against faves Everton (0:0).

[Konrad]

Yeah, this method seems more accurate than the last, I'm still not completely satisfied with it. I guess the true test begins when Venus leaves Aries as the confusion with the assignment of colours will, hopefully, be over.

Roll on April!
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[banefranco]

Dear Gentlemen,
I would like to explain the reason why Light table. Becouse in the universe first was light let us say the sentence you all know AND THERE BE LIGHT. Light-Dark are polarities in the universe like good -bad, like the others. So what is the product of light? Colour. It means if there is no light there is nothing, simply, polarity in any field must be. I want to shorten all of this and say there are two opponents one is lighter one is darker becouse only two colours stay at the opposite sides, white and black, all the rest is for compartment lighter -darker. The most confusion I had, with light red and blue colour. To avoid that problem I do not predict any match where the teams play in these jerseys. Of course I can make prediction but I do not want to spend more than two minutes in making prediction, that is all.
So, I hope you understand the reason why I spent a lot of time for something new which can give more precize results. I do not say that colour table is wrong but has it''s limit. It cost me some losses. Finally, mixed colours. That term can be used somewhere else but here in sports astrology that is like suicide strike. As you wish.

[banefranco]

Might be I made a mystake AND THERE WAS LIGHT.

[banefranco]

Yes, Yes, Thank you for this correction Haizea, it is time for me to get back and read again. That mystake was the sign for me.

[att75]

I guess both of you are correct. :)

"And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."

[banefranco]

I have some doubts about how to place teams in NBA, so I do not suggest method for soccer to be used in NBA but for European basketball competition, yes. As I understand the point in team sports is to find what represents them, Jerseys are not always the point I think they are in NBA competition. In baseball I had some interesting results with cap''s colours but definite rule I cannot present. Anyway, when
I tried to predict matches with teams in red jerseys I had to convert red in grey scale using Photoshop and to compare with other team colour if they are lighter or darker. Teams with mixed colours are slightly more different to predict but it is possible even in the most complicated situations. Then I use to find percentage of colours presented at jerseys and find the middle value in grey.
Sounds complicated and it is in one way wasting the time if anybody force himself to predict any single soccer match in the world. The pure perfection is if you use method in volleyball. So simple. But there will be time.

[att75]

Konrad, did you follow the Sampdoria-Genoa derby yesterday (04.11)? It began at around 21:02 (not at 20:45, as it was originally scheduled). Maybe I'm missing something, but for me it looks like that the Mars team was supported. ASC is at 03SCO44. The Moon is at 20PIS36. If we move the Moon, it makes a sextile with antiscia-L1(Mars), then a conjunction with antiscia-POF, where we stop it. I think these are two testimonies for the Mars team. According to the colors, the Mars team was Genoa. For reference, here is a picture:

http://www.rivieraligure.it/images/notizie/C_3_Media_616786_immagine_l_DWN.jpg

it's not yesterday's derby but an earlier, but the colors were the same yesterday. O/c, the blue-white, the "lighter" team is Samp. Samp has won 1:0. Which is fine, as I like that team, and haven't bet on the game, but still, weren't Genoa supported here "from above"?

BTW I wonder whether anyone will explain that Mars in Leo perfectly fits Sampdoria's colors. :) Just joking.

[Konrad]

I did follow it, yes.

I've been doing a bit of reading on antiscia and, again, I think Frawley is mistaken on their use. The essence of the concept of an aspect is the transferrence of light between two bodies, antiscia don't have any light, so should not be used. We can use the antisca in only a conjunction with the Moon as an indication. We can also use the contrantiscia (the point directly opposite the antiscia). I'm not even sure we should use aspects to the POF other than the conjunction for the ASC team and the the opposition for the DSC team.

Finally, again, Frawley is maistaken in the use of fixed stars. I have been using them to good effect. As there are so many, a comprehensive list is difficult but Regulus, Spica, Rigel and Sirius are good. Algol, Denebola and Facies are bad. these only seem to work within 1 degree of an angle.

I'm just on my way out of the country for a week but I'll post some new things when I get back.
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[Konrad]

Just to say I'm posting a new topic for my method.
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[SagiCap]

<INSERT SILLY QUESTION HERE> This is some amazing reasoning above, Konrad. I'm just curious what happens when the home teams wear white? Just use what they're wearing fo rthe game?

[Konrad]

Hi,

well both methods on here are somewhat redundant but the colour assignations are similar. I have started to use the bound rulers of the ASC/DSC and MC/IC when assigning colours.

I'm not sure what you mean with regards to wearing white; do you mean in American sports where the home teams always wear lighter colours?
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[dr. farr]

I am ignorant when it comes to astrology and sports, horses, financial speculation, etc (it probably would have been better, financially, for me to advance in those fields than in what I did, which is astro-therapeutics!) However, I notice here that colors appear to play a role in the delineations-let me ask, have you ever studied Sepharial's "Silver Key" (deals with horseracing) with an eye to the possible application or modifications of some of Sepharial's ideas toward your method?
Just a thought...

[Konrad]

Hi Dr. Farr,

no, I've never even heard of this before; I will look it up though.

There is always the same issue with these things, however, so I am a little cautious with one thing: a stand-alone game where one chart predicts that game only. Many methods can do this but where they fail is when using charts almost identical (soccer games kicking off at 3pm in England, for instance). Brady and Frawley both state that they "stop working" in such instances. For me, that's a cop-out and it is, in fact, proof that their method doesn't work. Especially as Brady proclaims that 75% accuracy is acceptable. I've even seen a course in sports astrology charging a couple of hundred dollars and guaranteeing 65% accuracy! I'm sure I could average that without astrology.

The two methods out-lined here have evolved into something different now and I may post it in the near-future when I am completely satisfied with it but basically I took astrology out of the equation for a moment and had a think about what is actually different in these almost identical charts - what actually changes? The ASC/DSC and MC/IC points change from anything between 0 and 3 degrees so it is my thought that we must use fixed stars with tight orbs and arabic lots ala Bonatti to find the correct technique.
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[fensi88]

Good luck in your research!

[dr. farr]

Konrad
Your thoughts seem very solid to me. Obviously the very short time frames involved in these considerations don't allow much of a "difference" to occur between the teams!
I wonder: in your researches, have you studied the effects of the changing duodenaries (sign 1/12ths): these change every 10 minutes; or the monomoiria planet connections-these change every (approx) 4 minutes; also the Enochian sign/30ths: these zodiacal "affinities", like the planetary monomoiria, also change with each degree of the sign-once every (approx) 4 minutes. These are really-old time considerations (Greeks; medieval astrology), as are possible implications of the oldtime "celestial topography" concepts (elevated degrees and pitted degrees-see my recent posting and list of these in the Other Astrology section, under the "12th house lost dignity" thread)
Now I have no idea if any of these considerations could have possible application or adaptation, in some way, to your method, but I pass them on to you, with the intent of making a + contribution to your interesting researches!

[Konrad]

Thank you, Dr. Farr! I did actually just listen to a lecture given by Robert Hand where he briefly mentioned the use of this technique to interpret the birth charts of a set of triplets where only one of them almost died at birth. It did cross my mind that these could be utilised in the football charts. I will look at them in the immediate future.
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[Bulletbobb]

Before looking at all these obscure techniques I would suggest that you look at midpoints. We know they are valid, based on very extensive use and testing, which is probably not the case for some of the things mentioned by Dr. Farr. I am always suspicious of techniques from the ancients that require any degree of accuracy because they did not have accurate ephemerides.

Bob

[Konrad]

I have tried midpoints and I see no value in them.

I have looked at the "by 12 dodeks" using various Arabic lots and the whole-sign house system, I have an almost 100% accuracy in predicting the result (win, lose or draw) and this method has also proved very accurate predicting the difference in goals in each game. Each chart now takes around 15 minutes with all the calculations but that's a small price to pay for the accuracy.

Personally Bob, I find the ancient methods Dr. Farr brings to us to be very accurate when using them to predict anything - perhaps you should get over your suspicions and try them out for yourself before dismissing them?
________
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[Konrad]

Here's an example of the "by 12 dodeks".

A little explanation first.

I use various Arabic lots cast from both the ASC and MC for the ASC team and cast from the DSC and IC for the DSC team (only the one calculation is required as the DSC/IC lots are exactly opposite the ASC/MC).

To judge the strength of the positions I look at the Lots' house position and weigh it against the Lot's dispositor. The house position gives me the the potential score and the dispositor's house position how much of it it actually gets. For example Lot is in 4th house, this is (+15) but it's dispositor is in 5th house this gives it half the score being succedent. If it was 9th house it would get (+3), angular (+15) and malefic (6th, 8th or 12th) then zero. If the lot was 2nd or 5th then it gets (+8) and it's house position determines how much of that it gets.

If the lot is in a malefic house, then it makes the team lose a score of (-15). The dispositor in a cadent house make that (-12), succedent (-8) and angular zero.

What I do is look for the first aspect a significator makes within it's orb to either a Lot or it's dodek and I use that score only. Each lot can only give it's score once and each sig only gets one score. One thing though, if a sig makes a conjunction at any time in it's orb, we use that to score it rather than the first aspect.

Here is the chart I work with. It's a traditonal one, so it may difficult for some to read:

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/5926/mancity.jpg (http://img816.imageshack.us/i/mancity.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

The dodeks are worked out by multiplying the degree the lot is in by 12 and adding the number of degrees to the beginning of the sign the lot occupies.

One thing though, the Part of Death is never benefic just not malefic. I calculate it by adding the degree of the ASC to the derived Lot ala Robert Hand.

Fortune: 4 Cap 48

Victory: 21 Tau 47

Glory: 5 Leo 35

Success: 22 Aqu 12

Spirit: 5 Aqu 24

Death: Radix lot = 5 Tau 35 (22 56 + 12 Aries 39) Dodek = 6 Can 59


MC Lots

Fortune: 11 Leo 11

Glory: 12 Pis 00

Spirit: 11 Aries 35

As I said before, the DSC/IC lots are directly opposite the above. Also. the Part of Victory and Pat of Success AM calculation are the same for both the ASC and the MC, so they are used once unless in a night chart.

Man City are pale blue and white, Liverpool are red and white. To discern the colours I use the ASC sign, it's ruler and the ruler's current sign. I also work out the dodek for the ASC and use that sign, it's ruler and the ruler's sign.

So on one side we have Saturn in Libra with Aquarius and Mars in Libra with Scorpio vs the Sun in Virgo with Leo and Venus in Libra with Taurus.

It doesn't have to be perfect, just the best fit for the used sigs and here Mars is the only indication of red (the Sun in Aries is but in the other signs it is orange or yellow), so the ASC/MC is Liverpool.

Now before looking at the, I decide the starting strengths. I use the league table to do this but with the season just starting that isn't available. Luckily, I know these teams and I know that Man City are a little stonger than Liverpool so I give them a starting score of (+3).

Man City:

The Sun: the first aspect is an opposition to the radix Part of Spirit (2 Virgo 57) and since this is for the DSC team, we reverse the Part. It is now at 2 Pis 57 which is in the 2nd house so gets (+8), the dispositor, Jupiter, is in the 3rd so it reduces that score to around 1/4 which is (+2). The aspect here doesn't matter as the Part is accidentally benefic but a malefic part being opposed is obviously bad for the team.

Venus: I forgot to mention that I use the ASC ruler, 10th house ruler and MC ruler in these charts. That means sometimes both teams get the same sig but that's ok since they interact differently with the different;y placed Lots. Venus' makes no aspect, so no points.

Mercury: Again, makes no aspect.


Liverpool:

Saturn: Makes a square to the dodek POF but it also conjuncts the dodek Part of Spirit, so I count this. When aspecting a dodek the significator receives the Part's place in the chart, not it's dodek place. So here the Part of Spirit is at 2 Virgo 27. This is in the 8th house as is it's dispositor, so it gets the full whack of a malefic which is (-15).

Mars: Makes no aspect.

Jupiter: Makes no aspect. I would like to note that I take aspects out-of-sign.


Man City start with (+3) and gain (+2) giving them (+5). Liverpool scored (-15). The difference is 20 and with (+6) being one goal, we have three goals to Man City here and it finished 3-0.

I understand that this may be complicated to understand and I may post some more examples but right now it's late and with my insomnia cured and my bed calling, it will have to wait.
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[Konrad]

Ha ha, ok just read that and I'm having trouble understanding it!

Basically, the scores mean little; they are just so I can estimate the strengths of the sigs consistently. I took an angular dispositor to give 100% strength, a succedent 50% and a cadent 25% with the malefic houses being 0%. Reverse this to find the malefic strength. If the sig and dispositor are mixed (angular and malefic) then the score is zero.

As for the starting strengths, I look at the table and see it as a tiered system. In the EPL for example Chelsea are champions and are (roughly) (+6) ahead of Everton, (+12) ahead of Sunderland and (+15 to +18) ahead of the relegation candidates. It isn't vital to be exact but it obviously helps the accuracy.

For draws, a difference of 0 to 4 would be a draw for me but if it were 5 I would predict (I think it's good practice to always make some sort of prediction) but not bet as I could be off in my starting scores or my chart scores.

I can't think of anything more at the moment but I will try to answer any questions to the best of my ability.
________
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[att75]

Hi Konrad,

if my memory doesn't fail me, you were experimenting with an other method, in which you mainly used fixed stars. Was that research somewhat successful?

[Konrad]

Somewhat but there was no consistency with them and after experimenting with orbs, partile conjunctions, conjunctions of declination to name a few techniques, I have abandoned them.

I had some moderate success with the use of radix Arabic Lots but still it was lacking consistency and, truth be told, I was about to give up on the whole thing completely when I read Dr. Farr's recommendation. I experimented with both "by 12" dodeks and "by 13" dodeks and found the "by 12" to be highly accurate in conjunction with the radix Lots.

I understand that the whole thing is a little overwhelming at first but I can guarantee you that, with a little practice, it becomes almost second nature to work with this technique and the only taxing thing becomes the high number of calculations required for each chart.
________
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[Redcar]

Hi Konrad,

thank you very much for your explanation.

I do have a few questions, if you don't mind:

- What kind of orb are you using?

- How did you arrive at 12Ar39 for the Part of Death (before adding the Asc and calculating the dodek) ? With the [Asc + 8th cusp - Moon] calculation I get 2Vi24.

- What exactly do you mean here: the Part of Victory and Part of Success AM calculation are the same for both the ASC and the MC, so they are used once unless in a night chart. If Victory is Jupiter - SpiritDay then you get to 21Vi49 from the Asc and to 14Can52 from the MC. Success (Jupiter - FortuneDay) gives me 11Li51 Asc and 4Le54 MC.
Could you please elaborate?



If some day you have the time, could you please give us a couple more examples, maybe one day and one evening match, just to make sure we have all the calculations/formulas right? It would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you so very much for your help.

[Konrad]

I use the orbs which Lilly gives in his orb table but I limit the Sun to 7 deg 30.

I use the Bonatti calculation for the Part of Death (off-hand, I think it's Saturn - 8th cusp + the Moon). There are no house cusps in whole-sign so I use the Robert Hand suggestion of adding the ASC degree to the 8th sign.

With the Victory/Success parts, when you project the PM versions from the ASC, they fall in the same degree when you project them from the MC (using the MC Part of Fortune and Spirit). For that reason, I only use one of them in night charts.

I'm going away for a couple of weeks so I won't be near my charts but I will post something when I get back.
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[Redcar]

Thanks for clearing this up. Have a nice trip!

[Konrad]

No problem and thank you!

Re-reading what I wrote earlier, I have realised the Part of Death is Saturn + 8th cusp - Moon.

I would appreciate any feedback anyone has as there could be redundant parts in my method. Since I use so many, I'm thinking that I could see one of them having an effect when in-fact it is another, so the more games it is tested on the better. With all the calculations my daily chart-rate is down to about 15 at the moment, so any help is greatly appreciated!
________
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[att75]

The dodeks are worked out by multiplying the degree the lot is in by 12 and adding the number of degrees to the beginning of the sign the lot occupies.

(...)

Fortune: 4 Cap 48

Hi,

is it surely Cap? My calculations lead to around 5 Aqua. So the 4-48 is probably OK, but the sign... If it's really Cap, please show me the correct calculation!

Thx.

[Konrad]

On a calculator 12 deg 54 comes to 12.9, multiply that by 12 and you get 154.8.

154.8 is 5 complete signs and 4 deg 48. You take five signs from the beginning of the sign which the Lot is in so we have:

Leo
Virgo
Libra
Scorpio
Sagittarius

and then 4 deg 48 of Capricorn.
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[att75]

Thx, it's OK now!

In my calculations I had had Leo as 150 and it had been wrong as it's 120. That's why the shift (Cap -> Aqua) in signs. My bad. :whistling:

[Konrad]

No, in this circumstance, Leo is zero. Just as Taurus would be zero if the radix part was at 12 Tau 54 - you count from the beginning of the sign the Lot is in whichever that may be.
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[att75]

Sure, it's fine. :)

The thing is, I'm developing a software for calculations, when
a) I have the point in "astrological meaning" like 12TAU30, and I want to find its absolute number in decimal, which would be 42.5 if I'm correct;
b) the opposite, I have 91.75 in decimal and want to arrive to 1CAN45.

The a) version is much more frequent: to calculate arabic parts, or to find aspects, I need these decimal numbers, which are between 0 and 359.9999 ... I'm going to modify the software to calculate these dodeks as well - as soon as I understand the astrological part presented by you.

So in this calculation-meaning Leo is always 120, as Aries is 0, Taurus is 30, etc. You add the aforementioned 154.8 to 120 (Leo), thats 274.8, 270 equals 0 CAP, so 4CAP... will be the result.

Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about this, and by mistake I used 150 for Leo instead of 120, and because of that the result was the sign after CAP, AQUA.

[Konrad]

Ok, I get you. :)

I actually thought of developing a small prgram for calculating the dodeks as I'm getting a little exasperated with the high number of calculations for each chart but I gave up after I couldn't find a way to integrate the Arabic Part positions into it without having to type them all in manually.
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[att75]

Part of Death is Saturn + 8th cusp - Moon
(...)
There are no house cusps in whole-sign so I use the Robert Hand suggestion of adding the ASC degree to the 8th sign.


I'm having a hard time calculating the Part of Death. To be more precise, I can't get to your result, 12ARI39. Could you please elaborate this "adding the ASC degree to the 8th sign" stuff? As I guess my problem is with that, as Saturn and Moon in the formula looks quite straightforward.

[att75]

Ok, I get you. :)

I actually thought of developing a small prgram for calculating the dodeks as I'm getting a little exasperated with the high number of calculations for each chart but I gave up after I couldn't find a way to integrate the Arabic Part positions into it without having to type them all in manually.

To make the computer do these calculations is generally a good idea, I think.

I guess your program should calculate the arabic parts too - thus no need to input them manually. :wink: Seriously, my program calculates a few arabic parts (Fortune, Victory, etc.), until the Part of Death, where I got stuck, see my question above :) but, the need for manual input is still there: so far ASC, Sun, Moon, Jupiter, Saturn, 8th-cusp is needed, and if nothing more, MC will be necessary too.

[Konrad]

Sure.

Take the degree the ASC is at i.e 22 deg and use the 8th sign + the number of degrees i.e. 22 deg Virgo as the 8th cusp. With my program, it works out the Part of Death as if the 8th cusp was 0 deg of the 8th sign, so I just add the number of degrees manually.
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[Konrad]

I guess your program should calculate the arabic parts too - thus no need to input them manually. :wink: .

It does but I'd have to integrate my written program with my astrological software to work out the dodek of each Part - something out of my grasp as far as computer programming goes.
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[att75]

Hi,

... but I'd have to integrate my written program with my astrological software to work out the dodek of each Part - something out of my grasp as far as computer programming goes.

My idea of a general way of working is, but I couldn't do this at the moment, to have the astrology software make you a text-file, which contains planetary and other positions. Then give this text-file as an input to the home-made software, which then would make the necessary calculations.

Take the degree the ASC is at i.e 22 deg and use the 8th sign + the number of degrees i.e. 22 deg Virgo as the 8th cusp. With my program, it works out the Part of Death as if the 8th cusp was 0 deg of the 8th sign, so I just add the number of degrees manually.

I'm always complaining about something and eventually it turns out that I'm wrong :) sorry about this but I still have something to add. In the example you have the (radix) part of death at 12ARI39. The formula is Saturn + 8th cusp - Moon.

Just to make sure:
Saturn - decimal - is 183.18
Moon - decimal - is 320.52

From your answer I reckon the 8th cusp in the example is 22VIR. But, according to my calculations, this gives 5TAU36 as part of death. 8th cusp is around 172.93 here (150 as 0VIR + the 22.xx stuff).

183.18 + 172.93 - 320.52 = 35.59 -> around 5TAUxx

12ARI39 can be "reached" as a result, if you have the 8th cusp as 0VIR. Use 150 instead of 172.93 in the above formula and you get 12.66 -> around 12ARIxx.

So it looks like you have to use 0virgo to get what's in the example, but from what you say looks like you have to use 0virgo+22.xx. Where is the truth? :)

[Konrad]

Yes, the Part is in Taurus. My program works out the Part as if the house cusp is 0 deg and I add the number of degrees of the ASC manually after I have drawn up the chart.

I heard Robert Hand talking about the Part of Death in a whole sign house system and he mentioned that he thinks we should use the degree number of the ASC as the 8th cusp (22 Virgo in this example) but he hasn't tested it sufficiently. I did test it and found him to be correct in thinking that. The theory goes that the degree of the ASC is the most intense part of the first sign, so it follows that same degree will be the strongest degree of each subsequent house.
________
POT (http://www.youtube.com/dispensaries)

[att75]

Thx, everything is in place now. :)

[att75]

Spirit: 5 Aqu 24


Hi,

quick question. :)

If the Part_of_spirit(_day) is at 2VIR57 (ref. on the picture), according to my calculations the dodek of this part shouldn't be at 5AQU24 but at 5LIB24.

Let's calculate with 3 instead of 2'57. 3 * 12 = 36. Add 36 to Virgo: that's Libra 6.

And I would be interested in further examples, even "nightly" ones - if you have the time and intention. :)

[Konrad]

You are quite correct! My hand-written Aquarius symbol often looks like the Libra one, so my mistake.

I'm not really in the position to put up more examples at the moment and I'm doing it slightly differently than I was up there. There is no sort way to out-line that here as I have noticed that the more I explain it, the more questions there are. I'd have to start from the very beginning and I'm not prepared to do that on a forum at the moment.

In short though, use aspects applying and seperating.

If more than one planet aspects a part, us the the planet which is closest to making the aspect.

If the Part makes a positive aspect to a part and a negative aspect to the dodek (or vice-versa) then use the one which is closest.

A positive aspect (eg. trine) cannot give a team a malefic part. Same as a negative aspect cannot give a positive part. A conjunction is neutral and can give both unless the conjunction is from a negative place (Mars conjunct Part in Libra). In this case it cannot gain a positive part but can gain a negative.

Trine and sextile always good. Square and inconjucnt with positive reception (domicile, exaltation or 2 of the lesser dignities) good. Square, inconjunct and opposition are bad (even opposition with positive reception).

We take essential and accidental dignity from the radix part, not the dodek.

To distinguish colours I use the ASC sign, Lord of the ASC and it's sign, the ASC degree term ruler and it's sign. It's then a case of the best fit using the collours on Fensi's site.

I use the Egyptian terms as they work for me and funnily enough, Ptolemy found his terms in an "old manuscript" which no-one else could find or mentioned in their texts.

PM parts are reversed only once, as per Benjamin Dyke's translation of Bonnatti on Lots. For example:

Part of Victory AM: ASC + Jupiter - Part of Spirit AM

Part of Victory PM: ASC + Jupiter - Part of Spirit PM


The best thing to do would be to post some examples that you want me to look at and I will say what I would have done but I don't have enough time to explain everything twice which is what I would be doing if I did it all here.

Just a quick note on the scores I assign:

House 1, 4, 7 and 10 are (+12)

11 is (+9)

2 and 5 are (+6)

3 and 9 are (-9)

6, 8 and 12 are (-12)

The dispositor of the part then tells me how much it actually gets.

An angular dispositor gives 100% of the above scores up to house 2 and 5.

An angular dispositor but a cadent (3rd and 9th) Part is (+3).

An angular dispositor cancels the effects of houses 6, 8 and 12.


An 11th house dispositor with an angular part is (+9)

An 11th house dispositor with an 11th house part is (+6)

An 11th house dispositor with 2nd or 5th Part is (+3)

An 11th house dispositor with a cadent Part is (0)

An 11th house dispositor with a malefic (6, 8 and 12) Part is (-3)


A 2nd and 5th house dispositor with an angular part is (+6)

A 2nd and 5th house dispositor with an 11th house part is (+3)

A 2nd and 5th house dispositor with a 2nd or 5th house part is (0)

A 2nd and 5th house dispositor with a cadent part is (-3)

A 2nd and 5th house dispositor with a malefic part is (-6)


A cadent dispositor with an angular part is (+3)

A cadent dispositor with an 11th part is (0)

A cadent dispositor with a 2nd or 5th part is (-3)

A cadent dispositor wirh a cadent part is (-6)

A cadent dispositor with a malefic part is (-9)


A malefic dispositor with an angular part is (0)

A malefic dispositor with an 11th part is (-3)

A malefic dispositor with a 2nd or 5th part is (-6)

A malefic dispositor with a cadent Part is (-9)

A malefic dispositor with a malefic part is (-12)


There is also a (+3) and (-3) bonus for benefics and malefics aspecting the Part or it's dispositor. For example, Jupiter in the first trining the Part or Saturn in the 7th squaring the part's dispositor. A malefic trining does nothing, same as a benefic squaring. Thing is though, the malefic or benefic must be angular to have an effect.

Lastly, a little about combustion. My experiences with it are restricted to Mercury at the moment but when a dispositor is combust then it behaves as if it is in a malefic house regardless of it's position in the sky. I'm not sure if it gains the maelfic tendancies of the 6, 8 or 12 or just the lack of positive placement. The combustion effects up to 3 deg 45. Now I have a theory about this: it could be that the combustion effects the planet only to it's moeity as 3 deg 45 is Mercury's but I haven't tested that.

Under the Sun's beams makes a planet go down two "levels" so to speak. For example, planet trines Part ruled by Mercury. Part is in the 1st, Mercury is in the 1st but under the Sun's beams. The Mercury behaves as if it is in the 2nd house (angular, 11th, then 2nd and 5th) and teh part would be worth (+6). if the Mercury here started in the 5th and it is under the Sun's beams, then it would go down two "levels" to the malefics (5th, cadent, malefic) and would give the part a strength of (0).
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[att75]

Thanks a lot!!! I'm going to experiment with this.

[Konrad]

No problem. I forgot to say, the teams start at different strengths and I use the league table to decide on a starting score. Anything between a (0) and (+5) difference is a draw, (+6) and up is a win but, as I have said before, I don't bet unless there is at least a (+9) difference.

These scores do not predict score-line differences in the actual match. I have a theory on that too but I'm still testing it.
________
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[Konrad]

Just like to say that my theory on combustion is wrong. I am thinking of just using the Sun's moiety for that, which is what I should have done anyway. Sometimes trying to out-smart the ancients isn't a good thing!

Speaking of moieties, here's what I use.

Saturn: 4 deg 30

Jupiter: between 5 deg and 5 deg 30. I haven't had a good chance to get it accurate but it is somewhere between there.

Mars: 3 deg 30 (maybe up to 45)

the Sun: 6 deg 30

Venus: betwen 3 deg 45 and 4 deg

Mercury: 3 deg 45

the Moon: 6 deg
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[CamMathmo]

You give a very useful listing of the scores for a Part depending on its house and that of its dispositor, but you don't say what happens when the dispositor is in H8 (unless I have missed something!). Could you please tell us how an H8 dispositor affects the score for the Part.

Thanks.

[Konrad]

Houses 6, 8 and 12 are malefic in my experience, so I grouped them as "malefic" in my list.
________
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[CamMathmo]

Sorry, I'm being a bit slow understanding this!

You have a section giving the effect of a cadent dispositor, which I assume means the dispositor is in H3, H6, H9 or H12. You also have a section for a malefic dispositor, which I assume means Mars or Saturn is the dispositor. Which section should I include a H8 dispositor in?

Thanks for your help.

[Konrad]

No, cadent is 3 and 9. Malefic is 6, 8 and 12.

The 3rd and 9th aspect the ASC giving them a little more strength while the 6th, 8th, and 12th do not aspect the ASC and are therefore weaker. Now the 8th is succedent but it is in trine to the "dark angle" (Sir George Wharton) a.k.a the IC which is associated with the end phase of life. The 8th is the house before God (the 9th) and in our physical existence, the last thing we experience before God is death. Therefore the 8th is highly malefic to living things.

Now the 2nd is also succedent and not in aspect to the ASC and many older astrologers consider it to be slightly malefic but Wharton states that it is in trine to the 2nd angle, the MC, which is associated with the prime of life and therefore is not malefic. My experience mirrors Wharton's view.
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[Konrad]

It's been a while.

I thought it was about time to make a website outlining how I predict these games, so I did.

Here's the link for anyone interested in it: http://sportsastrology.webs.com

[fensi88]

Nice news!

[Lakeside]

a sports astrology website, i havent seen one of these in years lol

[elise]

how can i know when the result is even , (1-1) (0-0) (2-2):andy: what are the aspects ??