View Full Version : venus square saturn
02-28-2010, 03:05 PM
02-28-2010, 04:33 PM
This aspect was discussed in-depth in a previous thread: Venus square Saturn (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8346&).
I recommend that you use the search feature to locate other threads about this aspect :wink:
02-28-2010, 05:11 PM
02-28-2010, 06:03 PM
My little boy has this aspect, and I have read various readings on how the child views the parent with a natal Venus-Saturn. Some astrologers link the aspect to the father, or in more modern times, the authoritative parent in the household. Liz Greene in her book Relating, links Venus-Saturn to the parent of the opposite sex. For boys it would relate to the mother and for girls the father. Carol Rushman, Predictive Astrology (http://books.google.com/books?id=0OJgX88KKMsC&pg=PA13&dq=venus+square+saturn+parents&ei=LreKS__LG5uoM-uGgf0M&cd=1#v=onepage&q=venus%20square%20saturn%20parents&f=false)says the child often feels they are inadequate and unlovable in the eyes of the parent. I am interested in how you feel with this aspect, and more about how you felt growing up.
Your Moon (mother) profile will describe more about your mother. You can look to planets in the parental houses (4th-10th) to further explore your family astrological patterns. Have you talked to your mother and tried to get close to her, and explain how you view her? What were her parents like? I find a lot of understanding comes from knowing how our own parents were raised or shown love. What type of aspect patterns does your mother have? Astrologically, some people show love in different ways, and Saturn/Capricorn energy may show love by working hard, and providing for the family. It is often hard to get emotional closeness from Saturnian people, and they often feel they are inadequate/a failure when it comes to parenting/relating.
02-28-2010, 06:51 PM
02-28-2010, 08:32 PM
I've written a little about my thoughts on my parents in the other thread which arian pointed me to. although mainly about how I related to my father. with my mother I felt there was also conflict between myself and her but it was mainly a different type to the conflict between me and my father. I did feel a little neglected by her when I was young, she would be more interested in other non motherly things and I sensed she was awkward about being a real motherly mum.she herself has some real tough aspects (venus in cancer opposite moon in capricorn) at times I felt a bit like I was a burden for her.of course as a baby and a kid I had no idea why,any complaints by me or if I pushed too much to ask for affection it would be met with her getting angry. she has mercury in gemini square mars in virgo which I often thought could make her get angry and petty very quick.
Thanks for the information :smile:. Your mother has a polarity of Cancer-Capricorn and this axis focus' on the polarity (http://www.astro.com/mtp/mtpt45_e.htm) of needs vs self-sufficiency. Venus in Cancer shows a deep need for security in relationships. The Moon in Capricorn (detriment) represents awkwardness around showing emotions, and there is a lot of fear/anxiety/apprehension around showing vulnerability. Moon in Capricorn can symbolise a very practical women/mother, and perhaps she wasn't allowed to show emotions herself as a child, or she has always had too much responsibility placed on her shoulders and feels burdened by her family. I wonder if her getting angry with you, could be "defensiveness" because by asking for affection, which you have every right to ask for :smile:, it highlights her Moon in Capricorn fears that she is an inadequate mother and shows up how anxious she is around nurturing. Perhaps if she let her defences down, or admitted she isn't the best at giving affection it could bring you closer. I am just thinking of the possibilities, you can identify why she is this way, and why she has such a hard time with emotions, hugs, affection and saying I love you, without it feeling forced. Mercury in Gemini square Mars in Virgo is quick to argue and perhaps critical, the use of sharps words.
she would usually brush any neediness away and tell me I was being unreasonable if I kicked up a fuss. so I took it personally and from that felt unloved.in recent years I've talked to her about it and she has told me she loves me.I don't ever remember he saying that to me as a child? so that sort of helps but it feels like its a forced tough love,like I don't deserve it.and its manifested in me where I've thought I have to be disrespected by someone and thats how I experience love.this has got me into all sorts of messy problems with my relationships I've had.
On the one hand, you can understand her stiffness around emotions with her Moon in Capricorn (from an astrological point of view), you can objectively see her emotional pattern in her chart. However, it still hurts and you feel rejected and mother appears 'cold' or cares too much about social approval/career, and how other people will react. I guess getting emotions/nurturing out of Moon in Capricorn is like getting blood from a stone. I have that with my Venus in Capricorn in the 5th house, and my mother said she would give me hugs, and I would freeze up. I have Saturn rising and getting any spontaneous expression out of me is like getting blood out of a stone :biggrin:. My partner has Venus square Saturn too, a theme in our family. Anywhere Capricorn or Saturn is in the chart shows fear and anxiousness/not feeling good enough. I read somewhere that Venus-Saturn could also relate to conditional love. Love with boundaries/barriers/conditions (Saturn). Venus rules relationships and these same feelings will enter into your partnerships. I love my Venus-Saturn partner he is always willing to work hard at a relationship and love is enduring in his eyes, he hates to let me down, and maybe this reflects his own fears. I had a previous partner with Venus-Saturn too, and his feeling of unlovableness meant that he found it hard to show affection, it depends on other factors in the chart. A Leo Moon is usually a lot warmer.
in a way I think my mother ruled the roost even though my dad was the financial provider. she was bossy ,wasn't massively bossy but she was definitely more motivated and pro-active than my father who was much more passive. I think my mothers personality is also reflected in my sisters chart. my sister has a huge stellium in sag including sun conjunction mars. my moon is leo and 4th house is leo too although the moon is in the 3rd. my mother clashed with my father a lot as she wanted him to be more motivated and to try harder at things while he would stubbornly refuse.
Your mother sounds like a strong woman, Leo is a bossy sign :biggrin:. Have you checked the synastry between you both. Sometimes this can also help. You might find some of her planets reacting to yours and vice-versa. I have looked at the synastry between all my family members, and you have that a-ha moment when you understand why you argue with one member and sympathise with another. Or some parts of your mother you relate too, and others drive you mad. It interesting to see how she reacts to your self-expression (Sun) emotional needs (Moon) etc. You have already been looking into all your family's chart's and have an excellent understanding of how they tick :smile:.
02-28-2010, 10:35 PM
03-01-2010, 09:40 AM
yea you are right about her being a strong woman.she would argue alot with my father and my father is the most stubborn person ive ever known. mercury conjunction pluto in leo square to taurus moon!
I think it was her upbringing that made her have that cold nature,it was a cold environment,they were quite strict and she was adopted so they probably showed her little in the way of love,they seemed very cold as grandparents when I went to see them as a child. she will talk to me about it but sometimes she gets quite agitated about it all.I don't push her since I know she might snap quick and I don't want to do that ,have you ever tried arguing with a mercury/uranus in gemini!? it can be difficult to get your point across,they are so quick and know exactly what to say ,she often leaves me totally dumbfounded.my father does too although he can be quite difficult in another way that he tends to lie and when he does this it throws me off .
Perhaps she was shown by her parents to keep emotions repressed/restrained and love was conditional. With her adoptive parents being so strict, it probably meant she had to follow their rules and earn love, since they provided your mother with a home. I understand it can be difficult to talk to someone, especially when they just show how clever/quick witted they are, and you just want a genuine discussion. Its hard with parents, as naturally they always have the upper hand to begin with.
it can be annoying when trying to get through to my mum as sometimes she will totally cut me off.I have felt like she has been a bit rude to me before and then when I try point this out or defend myself she gets awkward and says she has to leave,hang up the phone or tells me to drop it.if I keep arguing my side she just gets more and more dramatic.
if we didnt get into these quarrels I would want to spend a lot more time with her ,I think the arguments really doesnt help my relationship with her.I have thought that maybe this is something to do with why she was more cold towards me.but then I have often asked her calmly and respectfully for emotional support and she also brushed me away.it does leave me in a confused way with how i think I should approach people emotionally.I can definitely play hard to get in courting situations and often I show no interest in the people im interested in.
Have you tried writing out your thoughts. I know it can be a bit embarrassing to put your thoughts down on paper. As long as you write it without being offensive, and say to her you would love to spend more time with her, but the arguments prevent this and you want a close relationship. A letter can often communicate more effectively than a conversation, but some people find it corny. However, there is the chance she will become defensive and argumentative and it might make things worse. I have found if someone has written a letter, I can't shout back immediately and I will read it. When people get angry they don't listen, they just feel attacked and react powerfully. It might help, I wouldn't do it if it will create anymore friction between you both.
In your relationships, if you show no interest to people you like, maybe it prevents rejection. You might be scared of not having those feelings returned. Relationships with family do affect all future relationships. In this light, it helps to resolve family issues first, to enable better relating in the future and it won't leave you so confused. With Saturn in aspect to any inner planet (:sun: :moon: :mercury: :venus: :mars:) it always teaches us to develop self-sufficiency in that area. Your lessons are about relationships, love and affection (Venus) and you learn those lessons the hard way (Saturn). However, you also learn how to build an inner love relationship with yourself, and one that does not need approval. By valuing yourself, and believing that you are lovable, and worthy of love, you create a firmer foundation for all your relationships, like a love-rock :biggrin:. Venus-Saturn often has a constant need for approval and they want physical displays of affection, it often relates to early childhood and feeling rejected.
You might feel you are banging your head against a brick wall trying to get the love you want from people. When others are unable to offer nurturing/love (probably because they have grown up unloved themselves). You have to start from scratch, and learn about love and affection in adult years. This can come from love relationships. You never have the best role models when Saturn aspects an inner planet. You probably feel you have to try so much harder in the area of relating (Venus). Saturn aspecting Venus never offers the easy road and we often feel rejected or left out in the cold. The real work happens inside, and it often means a lot of hard work is needed in regards to your inner relationship, self-worth and lovability. You talk openly about your feelings and I think you will come a long way in achieving that inner self-worth (Venus) that needs no parental or authoritative approval but your own (Saturn). I won't lie and say it will be easy, Saturn is never easy! I have a Sun-Saturn natal aspect, and I feel inadequacy in self-expression and self-achievement. I still have a long stony path to walk, believe me :smile:.
the conditional love thing you mentioned is interesting,it seems most women I have met have been a bit like this and its the same way my mother is. if I do a favour for her ,like when I looked after her animals when she was on holiday ,she would be grateful and would be quick to return a gesture of appreciation ,I would say don't worry about it thinking unconditionally. but she always seems to be thinking about measuring things up with gratitude ,affection.
Yes this is what conditional love feels like. Its like "YOU" do something for me first, something practical, material and "earn" my love and then it will be returned. Love is only given after you have done a favour, lending money, behaved the right way etc. Maybe its her way of expressing love/gratitude, and you think nothing of it and only natural to help out. However, she deeply appreciates people supporting her physically, helping out with the responsibility of her animals while she takes some time off. If she returned the favour so quickly,perhaps she feels indebted to others, and feels she HAS to do something in return. Perhaps she equates love differently, but you don't always have to do favours for love to be given unconditionally.
our synastry is interesting, her uranus/mercury conjunction is conjunction my sun/venus and her mars is conjunction my jupiter,maybe I encourage her to argue more? or perhaps this would bring out her agression more? I have my jupiter square to her sun and my uranus is conjunction to her chiron.
here is my chart btw incase you want to look.someone has said before when looking at my chart that i'm possibly emotionally overly sensitive,I do feel like that sometimes. and that did get me thinking when I was born into the family they possibly werent ready for me.
If you are a sensitive child born into a family with some form of emotional restraint, you might be helping the family open up more emotionally. Your mother is teaching you to be self-sufficient, in an unconscious way. If your strengths lie in emotions this could make your mother feel threatened since she has Moon in Capricorn (detriment), and feels she has to keep emotions controlled and in check. Early rejection/Harshness in her home environment have contributed to her Moon in Capricorn defences. Each family member has strengths and weaknesses.
You have a good effect on people, after talking with you last night, and knowing my little boy has Moon in Capricorn and Venus square Saturn. I went upstairs and we sat on the bed and chatted late, we played together, and his little face lit up. We have a Moon/Venus conjunction in Capricorn in the 5th house and we have a lot of love and affection between us, and on some level we understand each other and share the same values/needs. We always tell each other how beautiful we are everyday :biggrin:. I looked at his little face come alive as we chatted, and I thought "wow", just 20 minutes talking, hugging and offering love meant the world to him. I can learn to leave the housework/chores/work and sit down and relax too :smile:
Thank you for being so honest with your feelings and I am listening to how you feel, and learning. Hopefully I won't compound my little boy's Venus-Saturn, and find ways to maintain a close relationship. When I hugged him last night, I hugged too long, and he laughed and said "alright mum that's enough", you can't win :crying::biggrin:.
03-01-2010, 04:57 PM
03-01-2010, 05:50 PM
Sometimes its not a bad thing to have some distance from people, while we are sorting ourselves out. I find you become more confident on your own doing this, so email can be a good way to communicate for a while.
If others are willing and open to want to get to know you, it is a very good sign, and it shows that they think you are worthwhile knowing. If you do tend to pick a few bad friends, Venus-Saturn is a good aspect to learn how to take your time choosing who you want in your life. Saturn makes long lasting relationships and permanent bonds.
Fear of rejection can hold back from many opportunities in romance. The problem with being too careful about letting your feelings show, is the other person feels you are uninterested. I have dated two Venus-Saturn's and they have said a lot of similar things that you are saying. I did say to my current partner when we met in the early days, that he did not let on that he was attracted to me. He told me he was shy around women and didn't think that I would be interested in him. When he opened up to me, I never realised he had such feelings underneath, he hid them so well, and those Saturnian walls hide a lot behind them.
I wonder if resolving family issues with both your mother and father would resolve anxiety. Sometimes too much interaction can increase your feelings. If you continue working with your counsellor, it will help rebuild your confidence again. I feel it really helps to talk to others away from your parents and family. You need someone who can listen without judging/arguing, and its a safe place to vent your feelings :smile:. Some people find a good friend, or anyone they feel they can trust.
You are good at talking about how you feel, and with sensitivity it must be Mercury in Cancer (http://books.google.com/books?id=wFBUwsg0bRwC&pg=PT119&dq=mercury+in+cancer&ei=1AuMS7iOJpzOMJCQ1OkM&cd=6#v=onepage&q=mercury%20in%20cancer&f=false), and if your sister is a good listener and talker she may be the best person to talk to about family problems, and she understands too. It must be hard for her too when she is feeling sad over your parents break up. You could both support one another, and help each other out. :smile:
03-01-2010, 07:13 PM
03-02-2010, 09:02 AM
I think I've surprised a few people as well over the years in more than one way. with all the gemini people possibly see me as a bit superficial but friendly.the negative mars aspects interfere sometimes as people have told me I look moody or angry at times.I think I can project that anger outwards which is one of the biggest problems I have (mars square neptune? or it may be another aspect,i'm still learning) it's not really something I can control but when i'm upset I tend to make people a little uncomfortable and I may scare some people off because of that.its a large cause of my anxiety and the anxiety that is caused by it only fuels that problem more,a self perpetuating cycle.not being able to control it is a massive problem but from what i've read its a very slippery and unmanageable energy and I feel slightly ashamed about it ,so I cut myself off from a lot of social thing because of it.
You do have Mars-Saturn (http://books.google.com/books?id=wFBUwsg0bRwC&pg=PT271&dq=mars+conjunct+saturn&ei=b8-MS5_POZ_azQSGkNHtDQ&cd=7#v=onepage&q=mars%20conjunct%20saturn&f=false)at the apex of "mutable" t-square, Carol Rushman discussed some family dynamics of the mutable t-square (http://books.google.com/books?id=0OJgX88KKMsC&pg=PA11&dq=mutable+t+square&ei=-c-MS53OHp_czQT_oZy5Dg&cd=2#v=onepage&q=mutable%20t%20square&f=false), would you say any of these traits ring true, for my astrological studies (I hope you don't mind that I ask :smile:). However, some of things she mentions in the book appear accurate, with the drugs and being careful about which friends you choose. I would also do more study on the Mars-Saturn conjunction in Virgo/5th house in your chart (a powerful driver) in your life.
I think you are learning how to handle anger (Mars) constructively (Saturn). Often Mars-Saturn builds up anger through blocks, frustrations, others standing in your way/blocking natural assertion etc., and it builds, and builds until you explode violently. If anger isn't expressed outwardly Mars is inverted and affects the physical body :mars: but also the mental state :virgo: and the health of the body and mind overall, this is where the enormous anxiety is building from, right from this conjunction.
Mars-Saturn often has more to do with the father relationship (http://books.google.com/books?id=UiV3UhftzK4C&pg=PA118&dq=mars+Saturn+father&lr=&ei=et6MS--sDpTaMamLtIsN&cd=5#v=onepage&q=mars%20Saturn%20father&f=false), it is a difficult aspect to handle. I have often seen a high number of these aspects in the army; partly because the individual is learning how to discipline the will. Obviously not all people are interested in this career, and many have no interest at all. My ex partner had a :mars: - :saturn: aspect and he used to work as a welder. I thought it was interesting that he had a job controlling fire and extreme heat (Mars) and shaping/welding pieces of iron together, it involves a controlled use of fire (will) and you do need careful skill or you might get seriously burned.
I do believe the lesson is about learning how to control your desires, anger, passion :mars: constructively :saturn: - but not to the point of frustration where it only builds up to create that intense fear and anxiety. My ex also had a really "bad temper" when he exploded he EXPLODED, and this lead to depression, he was at his worse when he was out of a job. You have a lot of nervous energy (mutable), and intense frustration (:mars: - :saturn:). Its all about learning how to assert Mars (will) in the most constructive manner (Saturn).
yea I think that link describes my mercury quite well. I can change a little though how I speak if my emotions are affected or if i'm in the company of a different crowd.sometimes I can totally lose that sensitive subtle side and my words have an edge to them.I'm much more restrained in writing than in speech ,I have a tendency to use bad language. flexible towards my environment and circumstances has always been a way I approach things, for example on here i'm more restrained although if i'm on a football forum I might be a bit more liberal with my choice of words and I can easily get quite carried away. I like relating to wide spectrum of people and maybe I don't really need to do it but I often think I need to be adaptable to that particular group,(maybe it has something to do with fitting in and being accepted?)
Mutable people are skilled at adaptability, I am mutable too :smile:, although energy can be scattered at times and often needs more focus. It is true how you describe the energy, and in different environments you "adapt" to the natural climate (your in a weather forum now or nature board :biggrin:). I do think the modes (fixed, mutable, cardinal) describe how we respond to situations in the environment. I have seen Mercury-Pluto use some dirty language :tongue:. I remember looking at a chart of a famous poet from years ago, and he had Mercury conjunct Pluto in Pisces and the poetry :pisces: was filthy (:pluto:) :lol:. I have seen foul, shitty language from Mercury-Pluto Lol :bandit:.
what you mention about resolving family problems might resolve some anxiety is interesting since I suspect that it could be true, its something that is in the back of my mind and maybe I really don't want to accept that because I know that will mean I have to try and face the possibility of rejection or humiliation at the hands of my family.i'm fully aware of my fathers inability to accept responsibility.any denial of involvement in the way I have turned out will ultimately make me feel terrible about myself, ie if parents aren't to blame then I obviously have issues or I am a bad person, a failure.its why i'm so hesitant when talking with them and discussing things that they could have had involvement in.of course there is the possibility that the drug and alcohol use made me the way I am and I could deal with that easily if thats the case, but I suspect it isn't since I remember being depressed and anxious before I even hit my teens.I've reached a point in my life where I know that their actions and words were not trying to make me feel bad,they were only defensive and I shouldn't take the blame still but their reactions to the points I raise still hurt and old habits die hard.
If resolving things with the family is too painful, perhaps it is better to focus on yourself for a while. Leave your parents to their own problems, and work on a career goal, ambition, or anything that you feel passionate about in life. It helps to set goals and slowly work towards them.
The depression I think stems from Venus-Saturn/Mars-Saturn/Mercury-Pluto. Liz Greene discussed the astrology of depression here, (http://books.google.com/books?id=M9IEuEmeS0YC&pg=PA84&dq=liz+greene+depression&lr=&ei=R-GMS5OdPJTWNqC0nOYM&cd=1#v=onepage&q=liz%20greene%20depression&f=false) and she pointed towards planets in Scorpio and Capricorn/rulers (Saturn & Pluto).
03-02-2010, 02:47 PM
03-02-2010, 09:24 PM
I love sad movies and music, they are a relief, and help to release emotions. You are very creative and find great ways to express yourself :smile:. Its great that you can handle duty, you can help me out sometime, I'm always slacking off (too much Neptune in this case). How could Gemini be boring, I don't think that's possible Lol :wink:. I also think its healthy to have a "look before you leap" attitude in love. I really liked how you describe all interests and hobbies, you have fascinating perceptions on life and infuse it all into your creative life.
Aww no army, and you have no interest in the military. Its a shame because I've signed you up for a full year while I was away from the forum, you will have a great time Lol :biggrin:. I thought it would straighten you out :tongue: (joking). Tough love, I think the army calls it, we call it hell. Trust me, I wouldn't go either :wink:.
Quite a few Mercury-Pluto are conspiracy theorists, and its interesting that you have worked with metal too. Perhaps, it does help, your Mars-Saturn is in the 5th house, so creativity is a constructive use of the energy too. :smile:
03-03-2010, 12:48 AM
03-03-2010, 12:30 PM
My birthday was last Saturday, thanks for the nice bday message. Another year older and grumpier :biggrin:. I think all people can improve their circumstances. We do have periods of stress, difficulty, and depression. We have good times too, and can learn to cultivate humour throughout life, and it takes the bitter sting away sometimes. Depression is a natural passage, we all need to go through it at times, I can remember some dark times that I thought would never end. Sometimes you have to sit and be depressed in order to allow all the feelings of frustration and rage to come out. You will eventually find a way out in your own time, and perhaps creativity during depression is good. I have read that those most creative people suffer from severe depression. Maybe its a necessary evil :biggrin: before the alchemy of depression works its magic on you, and transformation takes place.
You know your chart well, and can also use transits as a guide to see when potential times of difficulty are coming up, you can also see when things may improve for you. I will be doing some work on transits in the forum upstairs soon, (research room in social groups), if you want to share any life events and transits that would help. You don't have to its completely voluntary :wink:. I only start to become threatening after the second NO :biggrin:.
03-03-2010, 05:51 PM
03-05-2010, 04:46 AM
Your welcome, Mutiple :smile:. I need to do more study on my transits yet, and I get my mentally lazy days too :biggrin:, I have to wait for one of those high mental energy days to come along. I enjoyed discussing this topic with you :smile:.
03-08-2010, 05:16 AM
Multiple and Shining Ray I just got done reading this whole thread and thought wow.The honesty and support you two shared was just beautiful and I felt honored to have been able to to read it.I was totally engrossed in it. I suppose because I too have the Venus saturn square and My son has his Moon in Capricorn opposing Mars in Cancer,I really related to the thread.Thanks for sharing.
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