Practising on this chart but need help

[Elansome]

Dear all
Will this friendship develop in romantic way?
http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?lang=e&gif=achart_rucfilerlqHFC-u1060432025.74269.13156.gif&res=100&va=

The question itself Mercury retrograding and conjunct Sun. I know that when there is a retrograding planet that is weak but what happenes when it conjunct Sun? Also co-signifacator and the ruler of the 5th house is in a square to this Mercury-Sun conjunction. I wonder does it mean there is a connection but the square is actually making it harder?
Thanks for any insight.

[Elansome]

I think the chart is not visible try again
http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?lang=e&gif=achart_rucfilerlqHFC-u1060432025.74269.13156.gif&res=100&va=

[Elansome]

Mercury really retrogrades. Now trying again..
http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?lang=e&gif=achart_rucfilerlqHFC-u1060432025.32511.7635.gif&res=100&va=

[Howl]

Nope! You might have to "re-host" it :)

EDIT - it's there now!

[Summery Joy]

Elansome,

The querent is signified by Jupiter as the ruler of the sign on the cusp and/or by Venus as the almuten. The querent is also co-signified naturally by the Moon and also by the placement of the Moon since it's in th 1st house. The Moon is also co-significator of the question in general.

The quesited as a friend is ruled by the 11th house and as a romantic prospect by the 5th.

As friend, the significator of the quesited is Saturn. As romantic prospect, the quesited is signified by the Moon, the ruler of the sign on the cusp and/or by the Sun and Mercury Rx by placement in the 5th house.

Since you are using this chart for practice, I will not answer the horary for you. Instead, I'll give you a little excercise. Choose the main significators in the horary.

[archergirl]

Any planet within 8 degrees of the Sun is considered combust, or greatly weakened, unless the planet is 17 *arcminutes* or less from the sun, in which case it's considered cazimi, or strengthened. In this case, the Sun is at 25 degrees 05 arcminutes, and Mercury is 25 degrees 51 arcminutes. Is it cazimi or combust?

(Just a hint...):D

[Elansome]

Ok! Thanks Sore I will do my best!
I asked this question so I don't need to turn the houses? The first house signifies me. Jupiter rules Sagittarius day time, Pisches night time so I asked the question at night. I must be the Jupiter here. It is in Scorpio in the 8th. Opps we don't like 8th house as a placement do we? In importance sequence it goes like 1- 10- 7- 4- 11- 5- 9- 3- 2- 8- 6- 12. So 8th house is very near to the end in importance. Then I look at its sign if it is strong or peregrine!!! (I need to learn this term surely) For Jupiter, sign of detriment is Gemini & Virgo. Exalted in Cancer fall in Capricorn. So whats happens when it is in Scorpio? Guess what? I have no idea. But there are some other info like Associates degrees. I assume that these are good degrees to be between for a particular planet. For example for Scorpio it is between 7- 14 and our Jupiter is at 9 degree. It can mean something I guess. But Jupiter here defines me very well. As a planet it says it indicates students. So I am the one.
Ok lets move on. I am on the 8th in Scorpio which is the natural house for Scorpio anyway. Am I getting a natural transformation? That's true that I have lived through my Saturn return recently and it was as painfull as giving birth someone new. Jupiter has a tight square with Saturn in Leo. I might be that I am under the pressure of love in the sense of getting the right one. Or Saturn is telling me to be quick.

So for him. He is my teacher (Ok don't get me wrong I am almost 31 years old and its a causual language course, so nothing immoral, I like him a lot but I think he feels something as well.) We met in an environment that represent the 3rd house which is ruled by Mercury here. If I chose the 11th house as a friend I think it would be wrong because we haven't started as friends. So I am between 7th house (a question itself) or 3rd house. Interestingly 7th and 3rd house have the same ruler!!! Hey Horary works. That also indicates that he is a teacher yes??? In the same way my indicator Jupiter rules the 9th house in the chart which shows my life path that I am a Phd candidate. Now it is getting scary I am not sure if I want to know the answer here as I have to trust it all the way through.

So we have Mercury (him) and Jupiter (me) here. Love is Cancer, as usual!, in the 5th ruled by Moon in Aries which is neither exalted nor fall.
Mercury is not cazimi I guess, it says it needs to be within 17 minute to be considered as combust. So it also retrogrades towards being a CAZIMI!! Well that might be good. What's remarkable is it is receiving from Moon a tight square, at the same degree! But squares are not easy aspects yes?
By the way it seems that there is no aspect between Jup. and Mercury however can we say they are receiving by terms each other? Scorpio and Cancer yes I guess we both sensitive people.

How am I doing? Sore! See homeworks work!!!
I really want to learn horary. But sometimes I feel it is an endless way to go!
Thanks for encouraging :)

[Summery Joy]

Good job ;)

Before I start, I just wanna tell you that your chart has expired again!

OK. Let's get started.

About your significator. You can pick one of two significators, Jupiter the ruler of the sign or Venus, the almuten of the sign. You should pick the one that is better placed or decribes you better. Obviously you can related to the Jupiter placement, so Jupiter it is.

In order to evaluate the strengths and weakness of Jupiter in this chart, you must lean that there's something called dignity and another called debility. A planet dignified means very well placed, i.e. strong in its place. A planet debilitated is, of course, the complete opposite, meaning badly placed and weak.

A planet can be dignified or debilitated either essentiall or accidentally. This means that a planet can have essential dignity, accidental dignity, essential debility and/or accidental debility. Yes, a planet can have one of the above or any combination of them.

A planet can be essential dignified by being in a place where is has rulership. Planets can have various types of rulerships. They are sign, exaltation, triplicty, term and face. These types are arrange from the most powerful to least. Not all planets have all types of rulerships by the way.

Let's take Jupiter. Jupiter rules the signs of Sagittarius and Pisces. Therefore, when Jupiter is placed in one of those signs we say that it has essential dignity by sign. By the same token, Jupiter is exalted in Cancer. When iut's in Cancer we say that it has essential dignity by exaltation.

Jupiter rules the fire triplicty by night, i.e. when the Sun in the chart is below the ASC/DSC axis. When it's night and Jupiter is in a fire sign, it has essential dignity by triplicity. If it's morning, being in a fire sign doesn't give it such dignity because, in the morning, the fire triplicty is ruled by the Sun. In such case, we may say that Jupiter has out-of-sect triplicty, but that's not much of a dignity really. Jupiter has many terms and faces in different signs. You must have table for those because you'd never be able to memorize them. When Jupiter is in its own term or face, it then has some essential dignity.

All astrology authors agree that sign and exaltation are major essential dignities while term and face are minor essential dignities. They disagree, however, on the classification of triplicty. Some tret is as major essential dignity while others consider it minor essential dignity.

When a planet has no essential dignity whatsoever, it is then called peregrine.

Essential debility is easy to explain because it is either by signs of detriment or fall. When a planet is placed in the a sign opposite to one it rules, it is said to be in detriment. if it is placed in a sign opposite to the one where it is exlated in, it is said to be in fall. Both detriment and fall are essential debilities. There's no debility by trplicity, term or face.

Accidental dignities and debilities are a long list of stuff. The most famous of which is house placement. As general rulel, a planet is has major accidental dignity by being in an angualar house. A cadent house gives major accidental debility. Succeedant houses give accidental dignity that is less in power than that given by angualr houses. There are excepetions to this rule though. Some cadent house could give dignity as well, while some succedant could be very debilitating. So the houses that give accidental dignity from strongest to weakes are:

1st and 10th
7th, 4th and 11th
2nd and 5th
9th (According to some authors)
3rd (according to some authors)

So the houses that give accidental debility from worst to less bad are:
12th
8th and 6th


Rx and slow motion also gives accidental debility.

I've blabbed on for too long about debility and dignity. I should be discussing your answer. Your chart, like I said, has expired though and I don't know the data and cannot remember where Jupiter was. I think it had essential dignity by term though. I know that it's slow in motion now.

You know what? Just post the data of your question and let me get back to you on your answer.

[archergirl]

Excellent pratice work, elansome! It's always encouraging to see someone working so hard to improve their skills, and more encouraging when you can actually *watch* them improve! Great job...

As for horary being an 'endless' thing; I don't think even the most experienced horary practitioners know *everything* there is to know about horary; I think it's a question of most horary astrologers being 'lifelong learners'! :)

[Elansome]

Thank you so much Sore! And Shukran! I will treasure and read it again and again. Because you are explaining much more clearer than any other resources.
Thank you to you also Archergirl for your encouraging. I am addicted to astrology. I know I won't be expert but I can't help reading about it constantly. Must be my Uranus in the 4th house or the Moon in the 8th.

I have attached now the chart using a picture resizing process. I hope it will work. Otherwise the info is
17 July 2006 Istanbul 28e58 41n01 10 52 pm.
In astro.com the asc. came up as 16 degree Pisches. Just to make sure if you have the same chart.
Thanks again

[Elansome]

Also...
I suggest we should keep this kind of informative texts (The one like Sore's text) under the some special title called like "lessons" I am afraid this will go down by the time and not visible to the students. What do you think Radu?

[Arian Maverick]

Also...
I suggest we should keep this kind of informative texts (The one like Sore's text) under the some special title called like "lessons" I am afraid this will go down by the time and not visible to the students. What do you think Radu?

I believe I could arrange that...great idea! ;)

Arian Maverick

[Summery Joy]

Elansome,

Sorry for the delay. Please check your private messages.

Now, I will focus on three things in this post. Jupiter, the main the ruler of the ASC, Venus the almuten of the ASC and the significator of your teacher.

First: Jupiter:

Jupiter is at Scoprio 9:10 in the 8th house. It could be true what you said; that you are going through some sort of transformation. In my experience, however, a significator in the 8th house may show the person signified in a position where they are being used. That's not necessarily the case here. It's just that I've seen before and I want to share that with you.

Jupiter has minor essential dignity by term. It has a lot of accidental debility though. It's in the 8th house for starters. It's slow in motion and occidental (at the west). Yeah, some planets get accidental dignity or debility depending on being occidental or oriental. Jupiter has accidental debility when occidental and accidental dignity when oriental.
Jupiter here has a little accidental dignity by being direct and free from combustion and Sun's beams.

Second: Venus

Now, before treating Jupiter as you significator, I'd like to stress on a point again. You can choose the almuten to signify you if it describes you better or is placed better. The almuten of a house is the planet exalted in the sign on the cusp of that house. The ASC is in Pisces, Venus is exalted in Pisces, so your almuten is Venus. Let's take a look at it.

Venus is at Gemini 28:27 in the 4th house. This is a late degree showing Venus at the end of some phase. Gemini also shows two sides to Venus. Venus in a mutable sign shows constant changes as opposed to Jupiter in a fixed sign showing durability in the same position. Venus is essentially peregrine showing that Venus doesn't have much power to alter the situation, unlike Jupiter that has minor power. Venus has accidental dignity by being angular in the 4th house, direct and swift in motion and free from combustion and Sun's beams. It has accidental debility, however, by being oriental.

Now, Elansome, it seems that Venus is in a better situation than Jupiter. If I were doing this horary myself, I would have chosen it as your significator just for that fact and that it is the planet of love (describing your interest). However, you're th astrologer here. Look at the two planets carefully and study them. See which one describes you better and go with it.

Third: The significator of the guy

Now, the significator of the object of your affection. First of all, I don't know why you choose the 3rd house to rule him. The situation sounds like he's a 9th house issue. But if you feel that the 3rd house describes him better, I'll go with what you say.

Now here's my question (and this is a genuine question, not a test). If you were asking how he feels about you, we would take his significator as a teacher, no doubt, because we want a description of the current situation. However, the phrasing of your question was something like "is there potential for romance?". Now that sounds like a 5th house issue to me. And I think that although I would consider his significator as a teacher, I'll ultimately depend on the significator of the 5th.

Again, this differs from one astrologer to the other. So, I'd like you to think about. Don't rush with an answer. Just "digest" all the info first and get back to me.

Good Luck :)

[Elansome]

Nora!
You must have been a teacher! All you said is so clear and understandable and infact I started to get some horary as it seemed so hard to me before.
(By the way I visited your website and it is great really!) I suggested to keep this kind of informative texts on somewhere special, Arian would do something about it.
Thank you for your time.
I am under Uranus transit now; Uranus oppose my natal Sun in 2 degree orb so that my challenge is change now. This is to say that I am not interested in that guy anymore. I don't know what's happened but it has gone! So now it is all making sense to me. I am Venus there in Gemini and about to change the sign and already left the 3rd house (the course). In that late degree soon there will be lots of change for me. A sextile from Moon will be perfect in 3 unit time, after this sextile Venus is going to change the sign and will be in Cancer in the fourth house? Am I getting married? (This is a very good sample of jumping to the conclusion, I guess :) Venus in 28 Gemini in the 4th house and it has only accidental dignity by being in that angular house yes? But when it comes to Cancer it will have dignity by face. What about the opposition with Pluto that Venus makes? It could be that I will have to make a choice between career and marriage (being home).
So him Jupiter in a fixed sign and having a hard square from Saturn in the 6th. So even though he liked me he would not make any move due to work concern? Also he doesn't receive from Moon from the 5th house ruler. But he has a good trine to Ascendant and does that show that he at least has good feelings for me?
Back to the Venus, it seems to me that she and Sun has a strange relationship. Venus is approaching towards Sun and Mercury conjunct Sun. Soon they are going to be in the same sign, Cancer. Sun has accidental dignity being in the 5th house, correct? What about Mercury retrograding towards Sun? Someone from my past? But this Sun person is also receiving from Moon being in Cancer.
What do you think?
I got too excited!! Oh my God it is so much fun to solve a horary chart.
Thanks Nora! You made me feel this way.

[Summery Joy]

Elansome,

No, I have never been a teacher although I wanted to be one at a point in my life.

I see you decided to with the 9th house to describe him after all.

Yeah, there was a touch of jumping to conclusion in your answer. Why did you associate the the 4th house with marriage?

Also, you are considering way too many future aspects. Horaries should be simpler than that. You look for the application of the two significators in question. If there's no application, then your answer is negative. If there is one but it's frustrated or intervened by a third planet, then you consider that third planet too. But don't read into the chart by looking past that. You should also pay attention to the last aspect the Moon perfects before leaving the sign it's it because it gives you clues on how matters would end.

Now that you have lost interest in the guy, we know that the answer to the horary is no. Can you tell from chart what gives the no answer?

[Elansome]

Hi Nora
Thanks again for your time. Ok I will concentrate more on the actual events. I said 4th house relating it home, and also being in Cancer I thought I could be settling down soon. Well hopefully :)
Talking about the chart, his significator Jupiter in Scorpio doesn't receive from Venus (me) nor from Moon (the co-signifator). Correct?
That's why I thought there is no aspects between them so nothing would come up out of it. Also the last aspects of the Moon was a trine with Pluto. Does that represent a good dead end?

[Howl]

This thread has been excellent for getting my head around horary a little more. I have no background in it, and keep having to prime myself with the words "simple", "literal" and "this is not an event chart".

One thing I don't grasp yet is the significance of aspects. Obviously tense aspects are still tense, and easy ones still easy, but when a significator makes an aspect to, say, pluto (which signifies nothing, it's just pluto) I don't know what to make of it.

Also the last aspects of the Moon was a trine with Pluto. Does that represent a good dead end?

Elansome, this is hilariously poetic :D

Trine = good
Pluto = dead
Last aspect = end

Brilliant logic! I love it. Is there such a thing as a good dead end?

[Elansome]

Howl!
Isn't it learning? I am happy that I grasped some horary with the great teaching of Nora. :)
Thanks for your comments:)

[Summery Joy]

Elansome,

In order for the answer to horary to be yes, we need applying aspects with mutual reception (each planet is receiving the other one way or another). While the Moon (romance partner significator) seems to be applying to a sextile Venus (your significator giving a yes answer, there is no mutual reception between the two planets (in fact, Venus anti-receives the Moon) *and* that sextile is actually frustrated as the Moon completes it's partile square with the Sun before it perfects its sextile with Venus. No mutual reception and frustration give us a definite no.

Why did I use the Moon and not Jupiter? Because the Moon describes the guy as a romantic partner as it is the ruler of the 5th house (romance). Using Jupiter would describe him better as your teacher, which is not the relationship that you are querying about.

The last lunar aspect is not with Pluto, it's with Venus. I think you may have misunderstood me. What I meant by the "last lunar aspect" was the last aspect to be perfected while the Moon is still in Aries. You probably thought I was asking about the last aspect that the Moon has already separated from. No, I meant the last aspect the Moon gets to perfect before it leaves the sign that it was in. In this chart, the last lunar aspect in Aries is a square with Venus (your significator) .This tells us that the subject of the horary ends with some sort of focus on yourself.

By the way, if you look - in other charts of course - for the last lunar aspect before the Moon chnages signs and you find out that the last lunar aspect has already been perfected and there are no more to come in this sign, you call that void of course Moon (VOC).

Good job Elansome. :) Looking forward to discussing new horaries with you.

[Elansome]

Nora,
Thank you very much for all your input here. I think I made some progress!
I got a question, if the last aspect of the Moon was a trine with Chiron how would you interperate this?
Sorry for the misunderstanding about Moon's last aspect :)

[Summery Joy]

I generally don't take Chiron into account in horary charts because it is a modern planet. The rule about using modern planets is not keep it limited to when the modern function of that planet happens to be directly related to the subject of horary. Chiron is associated with pain and disease, which is not our issue. However, feel free to consider it in future horaries and see if it works for you to generally employ modern planets.