Toddler's ascendent?

[Courtney Love]

My cousin Jewg was born via C-section, but it wasn't the usual C-section because his mother weighed over 500 pounds at the time, and it took almost an hour and a half to get him out. The time of birth on his birth certificate is 8:33am, and gives him a 0 degree capricorn ascendant.

I am wondering if this is correct, because aside from some general stubborness, he just seems like a double saggie, like me. His sagitarian nature comes through so loudly, but his sun is in the 12th house, so I feel like he can't be so cheerful and playful with a 12th house sun in sag UNLESS his ascendant is also sag. Given the nature of the surgery, I'm wondering if he wasn't "born" earlier, so I'm posting his pics to see if those who can spot ascendants think he's a saggie-rising, like I do.


http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/116/l_bd7c5e754341a1e9aa7bd574016b3ff2.jpg

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/75/l_628d6bbe21875cf30ded4f4d044638b7.jpg

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/25/l_61a826fa5da5d9d48c3b5c988d7b289b.jpg

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/8408/astro2gw107jewg79862295.gif

[R4VEN]

I can certainly understand your dilemma with this child's Asc.

Even a minute earlier than 8:33 may deliver a Sag Asc. I have heard some mothers tell how the attending staff did not even announce the child's time of birth until well after they were born - like even 2-3 mins later. So you may be right.

The only way to know for sure is to wait and see how he is once he reaches the age of 9-10 or so. Sometimes an Asc such as Cap does not fully show up until then. A Cap rising child will be a loner - probably. You may just have to watch and wait. Trying to tell an Ascendant from a photograph is tricky, particularly while the child is so young - and so darned cute!!

[HeyPlayGirl]

hi,
he is a cutie!! my first thought was saggie with those big kinda far set eyes (my son is sag rising) but i heard even if the ascendant is at a late degree of sag he could get like a mix of sag AND cap since it is so close to the cusp.
if it helps at all i heard that cap risings are old in youth and youthful in old age if you know what i mean lol
my little bro is a cap rising and that rings true for him. when he was young he never wanted to dress up for halloween, or do a lot of fun stuff now that he is 18 he is popular and is opening up. so maybe if you watch your cousin you can see hwo he reacts to things like that and if he is totally gung ho and ready to jump head first into the fun stuff id say he is a sag rising but if he is more reserved then maybe he is a cap!

ok im sleepy so sorry if this only made half sense lol :sideways:

[dhundhun]

My cousin Jewg was born via C-section, but it wasn't the usual C-section because his mother weighed over 500 pounds at the time, and it took almost an hour and a half to get him out. The time of birth on his birth certificate is 8:33am, and gives him a 0 degree capricorn ascendant.


His look is Sagi and likely to be Sagi.

Astrological birth is related to first breath. Medical birth is related to fall (when baby becomes loose from mother) or sometimes cutting umbilical cord (which is further late).

When mother is serious, sometimes doctor leave child with umbilical cord and attend mother first. As long as baby is with umbilical cord, baby keeps on getting blood from mother and there is no risk to baby.

[EJ53]

Given that it took over 90 minutes to deliver him, I think there is a fair chance that the nurse recording his birthtime got it wrong......Yet in that second photo, he does look more like the wise old man of Capricorn (whilst the other two project more of Sagittarius).

However, he has 5 planets in Sagittarius......including the ruler of this Sign (Jupiter) and of the Sun (by sign and house)......So he is going to be very Sagittarian (and charismatic), regardless of the Sign on his Ascendant.

What's particularly interesting here though, is that this chart has a Yod (Sun/Moon/Neptune) that is not intercepted with a Capricorn Ascendant......but with a Sagittarius Ascendant, the apex planet/moon would be intercepted in Cancer and the Sun would be in the duplicated Sagittarius/12th......So, the importance of Sagittarius and Capricorn is emphasised regardless of which of them the Ascendant is actually in.

[I think the Yod might be indicating that Jewg will have the charisma (Sun in Sag) to influence the masses/women (Moon in Cancer) for a humanitarian cause (Neptune in Aquarius)......but the interception/duplication of Sag introduces the possibility of him becoming a "serial seducer of the opposite sex" rather than a universal reformer, which his Capricorn qualities/self-discipline would go a long way towards preventing.]

[noideaaboutastro]

Since I've begun learning astrology, I've become really hesitant to tell Ascendants from photos. Because frankly photos don't really "show" it all. They don't show the atmosphere around the person, their movements, their walk, their little individual glances and stares. It's all missed. For instance, my photos don't really capture that I am a Scorpio ascendant, but somebody who talks to me probably will. I really think you should ask people who can see the child.

[starlink]

EJ is right, regardless of an Asc. in Capricorn, he will have very strong Sagittarian traits.
Nevertheless I also really think that he could have been born with very late Asc. in Sagittarius and closer to Pluto. Planets in the 12th house often depict how birth was and the very first year of life according to Karen Hamaker in her book "The 12th house". Pluto trine retro Saturn could well show that delayed, difficult birth.

PS: I looked for SA directions and saw that around 1 year of age SA Mercury would have conjuncted his Mars and SA Venus conjunct Pluto. And SA Saturn would also have gone 1° further and trining Pluto exactly. It is therefore also quite possible that SA Pluto would be 1° further at 27°. Now does anyone of the family remember a significant happening around that time? Pluto conjunct the Asc. could indicate a big emotional change somehow.

I would keep an eye on Solar Arc Saturn and SA Pluto directions, as these two must have aspected the Ascendant. SA directions should be exact aspects as far as I have read.(Noel Tyll).

[Courtney Love]

No idea, I really don't understand posts like yours, I mean, do you honestly think there is someone I could discuss this with, and yet I choose to do it here first? I hate to sound mean, but there was virtually no need for you to post because you added nothing to the discussion. there are plenty of people who post their pics because they believe (as I do) that photos do capture qualities, and it helps us all learn. I loved HeyPlay's comment about Jewg's eyes that looked saggie to her. I can now remember that and associate that with others, and that helps.

EJ53, yeah, I can easily see Jewg using his "powers" for his own gain, haha, I loved that, a toddler becoming a serial seducer! You've made a good point, I really almost 'discounted' all of those planets in Sadge because 3 of them were in the 12th, but you're right, with a 5 planet stellium, he's going to be sadge through and through.. I guess I was just not feeling any capricorn from him, but the more I think about it, even 4 minutes off would make him a sadge rising, so I guess he probably is.

Star, I don't really know, I spend alot of time with Jewg, and around his first birthday, I felt like he stopped speaking, like his name is Elijah, and when he was around that age he used to say his name alot, and then his speech stopped progressing at all, one of the few things he could even say was "Hi Dee!" (to me, he's been saying that for a year and a half) and now he's about to start speech therapy, so I'm curious as to how the mercury/venus/mars would play in that. When I moved to Seattle in oct 08, he was almost 2, and thats when my mother felt that he just shut down, and didn't really speak at all til august 09 when we took him with us and drove across the country and he was away from his mom for almost 2 months. From then on, he just started talking alot, and singing... which is hilarious with no words!

I think I'm going to consider him sadge rising... I just wish I knew a more precise way, since dhundhun is probably right that the doctors (there were I think 4 or 5 of them operating on Julia) tended more to his mom to keep her safe during the surgery... So he could have been "born" but still attached for quite a while.

[starlink]

around his first birthday, I felt like he stopped speaking, like his name is Elijah, and when he was around that age he used to say his name alot, and then his speech stopped progressing at all, one of the few things he could even say was "Hi Dee!" (to me, he's been saying that for a year and a half) and now he's about to start speech therapy,

Well, I would say that this sounds significant, but only Pluto conjunct say, 27°Asc. could bring a transformation in his being afore. Mercury rules his 6th house. Has he been in hospital or ill maybe nearing this 1st birthday? or an exceptionally high fever maybe. You never know in how far things like that can influence speech development. Just guessing here of course. Beats me why he stopped talking and away from his mother brightens up again. Mmmm... maybe the inconjunct between Moon and Neptune? It took only about 21minutes of SA to perfect that aspect from Neptune to Moon. Traditionally Venus rules his mother (MC ruler) and Venus also by SA conjuncts that Pluto. Maybe she changed in such a way that it scared him or something. Modernly it is Mars, signifying the mother and there we see SA Merc. coming to Mars in 1°.

and didn't really speak at all til august 09 when we took him with us and drove across the country and he was away from his mom for almost 2 months
this is I think also no coincidence.

Wondering.....
Starlink

[Vista]

I am inclined to think he is Sag ACS, although I think a Capricorn ASC might give him more practicality. It's probably not going to matter that much as has been noted so much Sag influence in his chart will sort of dominate.

I think Mercury Square Saturn could explain the speech delay. With this aspect, sometimes they can be misdiagnosed with learning disabilities. This is so not the case with this aspect and in particular this little guy as Mecury conjunct Mars says he will overcome this and be verbally quite articulate and intelligant, with a flare for speaking or writing. Great debater.I also think Mercury conjunct Jupiter helps give one a jovial/optimistic outlook on things and again indicates very high intelligence. Lastly, Mecury conjunct Mars/Jupiter is indicative of someone who is pretty witty and expressive. Of course, these are Sag traits too.http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[kbell]

Nevertheless I also really think that he could have been born with very late Asc. in Sagittarius and closer to Pluto. Planets in the 12th house often depict how birth was and the very first year of life according to Karen Hamaker in her book "The 12th house". Pluto trine retro Saturn could well show that delayed, difficult birth.

That's interesting because I've always wondered about my son's 12th house moon. We are very close, but he had a difficult birth and was taken to a larger hospital with a NICU before I was able to bond with him. That makes a lot of sense now. We both also have chiron in the 5th.

[Courtney Love]

Well, I would say that this sounds significant, but only Pluto conjunct say, 27°Asc. could bring a transformation in his being afore. Mercury rules his 6th house. Has he been in hospital or ill maybe nearing this 1st birthday? or an exceptionally high fever maybe. You never know in how far things like that can influence speech development. Just guessing here of course. Beats me why he stopped talking and away from his mother brightens up again. Mmmm... maybe the inconjunct between Moon and Neptune? It took only about 21minutes of SA to perfect that aspect from Neptune to Moon. Traditionally Venus rules his mother (MC ruler) and Venus also by SA conjuncts that Pluto. Maybe she changed in such a way that it scared him or something. Modernly it is Mars, signifying the mother and there we see SA Merc. coming to Mars in 1°.
this is I think also no coincidence.

Wondering.....
Starlink


No, nothing like any illness, like 2 days after his birthday we went down to florida for a week and he had a grand time. The thing about his mother is that she isn't just morbidly obese, she's super lazy and neglectful, and Jewg seemed to think that talking didn't matter, I guess he felt no one was listening.. When I'd be at the house, if he wanted something to drink, he'd go to the kitchen and bring the milk jug to me without a word. However, i would make him try to say milk, and in a way, he seemed to notice that i was the only one trying to communicate with him, to make him speak. It was funny how we were on the road for the cross country trip, and when he had to pee, instead of using his pull-ups like at home, he'd call my name and say "Dee! I pee" heh I guess because I'd tell him that we'd find a place in a second, and to hold it.. he never would tell the other 3 people in the car, so i don't know. I felt that no one was challenging him to speak, once his meaning was clear, that was it, no one tried to make him say any words, but I thnk most kids learn on their own, so maybe thats not why he was behind, but he is learning quickly now... At the risk of being egotistical, I just wonder if it's because I've been in town for the last 3 months, which coincide his rapid speech development. makes me sad that I'm leaving in about 10 days... but he will have therapy.

Oh wait, this is important. When I moved to Seattle in Oct 08, he was almost 2. My mother (Jewg's great aunt) is the love of his life, he prefers her to everyone, including his mother. My mother and jewg's sister came with me to Seattle for 2 weeks, and he was left alone with Julia. My mom swears that this is when he "shut down." Given how young he was, she may have a point, this is around the time he should have really been blossoming in terms of speech, and he stopped. So I don't know...

he is brilliant, Vista, its part of the reason no one worried about his speech, he knows so very much.. you know.. he knows different words for things, he's so intelligent it's scary. I remember jokingly telling him to go into my bedroom and bring me my money off the table, when he had just turned 1. he came back with the cash, credit cards, and as much change as his little hands could carry, I thought that was great.... :lol: