Effeminate traits in a man

[tizer]

I was wondering if anyone has observed effeminate traits in a heterosexual man in their chart. Would a cancer moon or asc suggest this character, or is that far too simplistic?

[R4VEN]

Interesting question...............

I think that some men with Cancer Moon may seem/appear effeminate, but I'm sure this is not universally so.
eg some men with Cancer Moon:


actor/writer/director, Richard E Grant, who is hetero, but very sensitive, and so gives off a kind of effeminate air.
writer/broadcaster, Melvyn Bragg; sensitive, but not effeminate
my niece's husband; grew up in Darwin, so despite being a sensitive man, he is also very blokey, and not at all effeminate..... (but he really loves his mum!!)

My youngest son is very sensitive, hetero, and comes across as slightly effeminate, and was teased while in high school with names like fag, etc. He has quite a few planets in his 12th house, including Sun, Mars, Venus - i.e. personal planets.

I would be more drawn to 12th house planets, as effeminate traits in hetrosexual men tend to come from the unconscious. My son grew up in small town Australia, and found the value system of his peers really hard to take.

[lillyjgc]

I have had a few heterosexual friends with effeminate traits.I too have noticed a connection with planets in cancer-especially the moon and also venus in Libra has come up a few times. I don't have many charts to look at in relation to this, but the few I do have, show Libran ascendants or venus in h1.
One has mars in Libra in h12 and one has sun in Libra in h12, which is similar to your observations R4ven.
A lot also depends on our definition of *effeminacy*.My own interpretation for the sake of this exercise, was to consider such things as interests in things usually considered mainly female, sometimes vocal quality is part of it, style of dress etc.
But its a blurry area these days, and it might help us Tize, if you describe your understanding of the term so we're all on the same page.
Cheers
Lilly

[byjove]

Hi there,

I have read many astrologers saying that a male with a feminine moon
often makes him appealing to women...it adds a certain something. I've
Cancer rising and people say that they can see those traits a mile away,
and I think it's still very difficult for other masculine placements to overpower
that...I've many Aries/Capricorn effects but it still comes through a Cancer Rising window...but for the record, since you mentioned sexuality, I'm not straight. And many guys I've seen with very feminine placements like that who
were straight just seemed to hide that aspect around other guys, only let girls
see...

[R4VEN]

One has mars in Libra in h12 and one has sun in Libra in h12, which is similar to your observations R4ven.

My son has both these - i.e. Mars and Sun in Libra in 12th.
It seems to imbue him with an unconscious - and so quite powerful - requirement for balance in all things, which spills over into his personal life, and also the way he projects himself into his environment. eg. he never ever does that bloke-thing of taking charge even when no-one wants him to - he always checks with others to see what they require.

I know a number of hetero men who are significantly effeminate - unfortunately I do not know their birth details.

Yes, an idea of what is meant by effeminate would help. For me, I would class it as thinking about a man: Is he gay? - which is what I thought when I first saw an interview with Ricahrd E Grant.

[starlink]

Moon in Pisces in 6th trine Mars in Cancer. This is my man. He is double Virgo.He is adored by all women he meets just because he understands them so well. They cry out on his shoulder, honestly!, and he listens, perfectly understanding their chagrin:). I always have to laugh when he tells me all their problems in their lovelife, wondering how on earth he has the patience to listen to all that womentalk. Great to have around when you feel sick, goes out of his way to help. Only thing he does not understand is why women love soaps, like Eastenders, Top Models, Coronation street etc. :)

[HeyPlayGirl]

i noticed a few males with virgo suns/moons/or ascendants who are SLIGHTLY more feminine. also, i always wondered if a male had an ascendant or moon in libra or taurus would that perhaps make them more feminine in their look/gestures, etc since those signs are ruled by venus? same goes for women with an ascendant/moon that is ruled by mars being a bit more masculine? i've seen a few females with scorpio moons/suns that are more tomboyish but then again i guess it also depends on mars and venus in their charts too..
just my 2 cents :wink:

[PaxMercurius]

Typically if a person has more feminine placements (planets in Taurus or Virgo, Pisces and Cancer, with Capricorn and Scorpio being unofficially quite 'masculine' in my opinion - the rulership of Saturn and Mars respectively) or the essential dignity of the feminine planets (Moon, Venus, Mercury if affected by either or by sign) are strong and influencial, they will have more 'feminine' characteristics, and vice-versa. It takes a fairly strong polarity to effect a person strongly one way or the other, and in my experience, seems to be irrespective of physical sex. This is more an indication of 'polarity', rather than specific gendered behaviour, imo. Mercury, as the ruler of the 'animal soul' or primal self, has a strong influence on gendered expression, I find. Its placement and aspects seem to be quite significant in a lot of charts I've read, as is the ruling planet of the chart.

[byjove]

I know a number of hetero men who are significantly effeminate - unfortunately I do not know their birth details.

Yes, an idea of what is meant by effeminate would help. For me, I would class it as thinking about a man: Is he gay? - which is what I thought when I first saw an interview with Ricahrd E Grant.

Well, I'm not sure if this particular description will help hit the nail on the head, since, of course, not all gay guys are effeminate, and not all straight guys are masculine, and I think it was Starlink who made an excellent point about what is 'masculine' or 'feminine' now? The lines are blurred. But of course it could be helpful to think about in which society? In Italy for example, I just don't see any classic 'feminine' traits exposed in males, but in Britain, yes, definitely. The lines between what guys/girls are or show has blurred significantly. But maybe in big countries like the US, all of the above types can be found, depending on state for example.

So, is there a model, a society or archetype? I just can't tell anymore, I never wonder who's gay, the traits are so blurred now. I've met PLENTY of straight guys who were VERY hetero, and plenty of 'masculine' / 'macho' guys who were not straight (though much of that is affectation from my perspective, they often TRY to appear a certain way, and the actual individual is lost behind the smokescreen)...

[tizer]

What did I mean by effeminate? Well in the most simple form, I suppose a man that you would suspect to be homosexual. Now, what that could actually be is really so broad... So perhaps an inclination towards the more 'feminine' signs could be it. Just the general 'feel' of their expression.

Both examples that spring to mind are virgo suns. One is extremely exuberant and bright in his dress, and has absolutely no qualms wearing pink (or any other 'girly' colour), to the extent that he is often mistaken as gay. He has a cancer ascendant square uranus. Only saturn is in the 12th house. The other I don't have the chart for, but the way he expresses himself is very camp, even the way he runs! He's also mortally sensitive about his sexuality and hates being wound up about this.

As HeyPlayGirl said, on the flip side, I have lots of Scopionic influence and would certainly agree that I'm on the masculine side of femininity!!

[MTTY05]

I can relate to this, but I hate it. Even my own grandma has accused me of being gay. And instead of coming to my defense, another family member of mine just says things like "let him to what he wants, he's an adult". Another friend of mine has said to me "I don't care if you're gay". Although we were talking about other people, I know she was trying to very delicatly address that towards me. Then later she said something about how my mannerisms reminded her so much of her gay brother. Why would I remind you of gay people??

Don't get me wrong, I love the gay community, but I would definitley prefer to not be mistaken as one of them for the simple reason that I'm not gay. I know that most people know I'm straight, but I still find it dissapointing that some people who are close to me would have such misconceptions.

I've seen the 12th house mentioned in this thread a few times. I personally never really associated that house with effeminancy, but in equal house I do have 3 outer planets there. And on there other side of my chart I have 4 personal planets in Virgo, and a Libra moon. But yet, I never saw myself as an effiminate person...despite the skinny jeans.:tongue:

[Pallas-trine-Mars]

A Cancer Moon doesn't mean effeminate and yes, that is far too simplistic, though Cancer and the Moon are considered somewhat feminine. Would you describe Keanu Reeves effeminate?

I'd actually be looking for more Libra, Pisces, maybe even Leo placements (no, Leo's not usually considered feminine, but I think a strong Leo can be more sexually unrestrained, all the fixed signs actually). I find that Venus, while arguably the most feminine planet of all (psychologically speaking, not the female/mother archetype most say the Moon is supposed to be) works the opposite way in a male chart and if angular or combust and makes him more consciously unfeminine, yet if her sign and exaltation are strong (Libra and Pisces) the feminine aspect of his personality still shines through, also if Venus positively aspects the ascendant.

I think If we're talking about a person's sexuality we must also look at the 8th house, Pluto, whatever aspects Venus makes and the condition of the rulers of the 5th, 7th, 1st and 8th house. Vesta is also supposed to be related to sexual issues and Chiron of course is psychological healing and issues and stuff like that. Some people would say Mars too, but I think Mars is more about action first, then sex and lust later.

[MantisReligiosa]

I was wondering if anyone has observed effeminate traits in a heterosexual man in their chart. Would a cancer moon or asc suggest this character, or is that far too simplistic?

I think effeminate traits-well, the "visible" traits, in general, can only be seen through the Ascendant-its position by sign, aspects to planets, and maybe, to a lesser extent, planets in the 1st house.(if you really wanna go deep, you can take planetary pictures involving the AC and declinations into account, as well).

Since I cannot refrain myself from considering both Sidereal and Tropical placements, I am gonna say that Tropical Libras and Sidereal Virgos are usually effeminate-looking.(think Alain Delon and Leonardo Dicaprio).

However, I'm guessing there are aspects to the AC that can weigh more in masculinity. Like a Libra Rising conjunct Mars might be more "macho".

Whether a man acts effeminate or not is a different issue. I find it funny ever now and then when I see a Sag Rising who acts manly just to live up to his image, when, in fact he's a Cancer with a Libra Moon...lol

I guess what makes a man actually "feel" more on the feminine side is a Venus-Moon aspect. These are the typical ladies' men:love:.
Unfortunately, they can be major womanizers who love all women and no one woman in particular..

[LeadLeftHand]

Here's a Cancer on the right:
http://www.twentyfortyone.com/blog/img/mike-tyson.jpg

[Inside Out Orange]

Here's a Cancer on the right:
http://www.twentyfortyone.com/blog/img/mike-tyson.jpg

And have you ever heard him talk? That lisp is hardly the most masculine thing you'll hear but that doesn't have to be down to his Sun sign.

I don't believe anyone suggested that Sun Sign Cancerians are effeminate, but there was a suggestion that the Moon sign Cancerians might be. I'd expect it to be a much more complex set of aspects or delineations that something that simple.

[LeadLeftHand]

And have you ever heard him talk? That lisp is hardly the most masculine thing you'll hear but that doesn't have to be down to his Sun sign.

I don't believe anyone suggested that Sun Sign Cancerians are effeminate, but there was a suggestion that the Moon sign Cancerians might be. I'd expect it to be a much more complex set of aspects or delineations that something that simple.Who cares? Literally half of his life was dominated by being a king in a masculine trade. He's a prime example of a Cancer type who was moar masculine than most people will ever be.

From what I seen so far lots of Cancer male types have an exaggerated alpha male personality. Libras and Virgos are "fruity".

[MantisReligiosa]

Cancers are teddy-bears.:tongue:

but you can't just base your observations on sun signs..there's more than that to a chart.

[LeadLeftHand]

Cancers are teddy-bears.:tongue:

but you can't just base your observations on sun signs..there's more than that to a chart.This is true. Bill Clinton is loaded with Libran energy, but I wouldn't call him a girly man. He just seems to know how to work women.

[MaeMae]

Mars in Virgo in a man's chart, hands down. I've known several men, two of whom were old loves, who have what would I consider an effeminate nature. None were gay, but a certain j'nais c'est quai that lended itself to this determination.

[Lion o ness]

Thats funny that this subject has been brought up.. I recently met a Libra Man.. My first impression of him, was he's a bit to feminine... I thought I wonder if he's bi... Or if he's just trying to find himself... Im 100% sure someone has asked him, if he was gay... I wanted so bad to ask... But I didnt want to mess with that male ego... lol... So I contiuned to talk to him.. He's SOOO not gay! lol.. (even though he does come across even more feminne the more I got to talk to him)

I dont know his time... But I was actually guessing a Scorpio asc.. or a Libra asc... He has ver strong bone structure..

His moon is in Cap.. I checked the entire day.. Its cap..

He has a Libra Stellium of
pluto,mars,uranus, sun
Merc in Scop
venus in Virgo

[Caprising]

I have been "accused" of being gay when I was younger, some of the accusers actually hit on me:unsure:. With venus and sun in libra in the tenth I must put out venusian energy, and with merc in virgo (a mutable sign- that could go either masuline or feminine depending upon aspects) and capricorn rising ( a feminine sign) and having cancer on the 7th house cusp, I'm just not the beer drinking, spitting,swearing hero that a lot of guys pretend to be! I have found that the guys who think that I'm gay are actually projecting their unconcious bi-sexuality onto me! It's been enlightening to watch their sons grow up to become gay!

[Raincow]

My best friend ever had the same sun moon placements as I. He was asc and sun leo, pisces moon, cancer venus. A musician and pianist. A big guy (huge bones) with gentle ways, his talk, his walk, his whole being was sooo effeminate and perhaps childlike. And he didn't worry any at all about it.

[dreamtimez]

Both examples that spring to mind are virgo suns. One is extremely exuberant and bright in his dress, and has absolutely no qualms wearing pink (or any other 'girly' colour), to the extent that he is often mistaken as gay. He has a cancer ascendant square uranus. Only saturn is in the 12th house. The other I don't have the chart for, but the way he expresses himself is very camp, even the way he runs! He's also mortally sensitive about his sexuality and hates being wound up about this.



This almost describes a friend of mine ... :happy: He has Virgo Sun, Cancer Moon and Saturn square Uranus in 12th house. He's shy, loves colour and he understands me better than some of my women friends ! :kissing:

[danashock]

even though libra is a masculine sign,it is still ruled by venus. Most guys i know with lots of planets in libra are very effeminite. moon in libra charms the ladies like no other! Also if there are lots of water and feminine planets (neptune/venus) ruling the chart

[MasterBuilder224]

I was wondering if anyone has observed effeminate traits in a heterosexual man in their chart. Would a cancer moon or asc suggest this character, or is that far too simplistic?

I have Cancer Ascendant and Venus conjunct my Asc. in the 1st but I also have Mars in the 12th in Cancer conjunct my Asc.

I'm not vaguely effeminate, although I'm an excellent dancer, graceful in general and have a pretty boys face.

I think you have to consider what the word "effeminate" means and how boys are shaped beginning in school to think if they "act" a certain way they're gay or effeminate. And many of them, like most people, follow the label or box they're given by "the majority", whether it's announced or just relentlessly hinted.

I had a neighborhood friend who was like that. When we were all 5, 6 and 7, there was no real difference between us except he was smaller and not quite as athletic as the rest of us- but he wasn't gay. But as the years passed, he started spending more and more time with girls and by high school he thought he was gay.

I think the Stars set the table but the expression is conditioned by a given culture. And in today's American culture, grace and taste are viewed as "effeminate", and being crude, unkempt, boy-like, slob-like and apathetic are "masculine" traits. This is easily the most ridiculous and ignorant perspective possible. But that's what Hollywood and the fashion industry are telling American men. Personally, I find it disgusting.

[byjove]

That is a very interesting perspective, and view into particular things, masterbuilder. How interesting! And you seem to have a refreshing confidence, mature perspective and understanding of gender roles and to sexual orientation.

How true, society has some crazy ideas on what it is to be a man/woman, heterosexual/homosexual/ and is generally unsure about bisexual, from what I can see.

I think your Mars touching the ASC affects your Venus on the ASC. And they're Cancer, you say? How very Angelina Jolie! I often think about how these arrangements have affected her physical makeup, and doesn't she have many distinct features!

You say many things there which raises many questions...and think there would be good conversation there! I began a course in sociology here and felt thrilled to find a constructive outlet for this kind of thought.

[RayAustin]

Things like this could only be for sure answered after studies looking at the charts of typical heterosexual men and effeminate heterosexual men--but I'd say the Moon and Venus and signs like Pisces would have something to do with it and the ascendant; even Mercury since it copies whatever planet it contacts and is androgynous in nature.

I wouldn't say my astrotwin Zac Efron to have effeminate traits, I don't know him personally, but he is effeminate looking and has a first house Venus conjunct Pluto in Scorpio, with Moon sextiling from Virgo. Mercury is conjunct Venus as well and with Moon&Mercury being convertible this gives him a strikingly effeminate face--I think I can see a bit of the 'trickster' Mercury in his eyebrows. He also has Venus sextile Neptune, and Moon trine Neptune very closely.

His chart ruler Mars is in Libra, as is the Sun. So his masculine planets are a bit effeminate as well (both under Venus rulership).

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/6901/230pxzacefron2007.jpg

I know this thread is about traits, but it'd be interesting to know how his mannerisms are as well. I would expect those to also be effeminate if he isn't hiding it to not appear gay. He's been teased about that in the media.

In my opinion those with feminine traits are going to have strong contacts to Venus/Moon in some way especially if they contact Neptune (but I wouldn't say Neptune alone).

[Momma's Kumquat]

a few things I've noticed...

Hard aspects between uranus and venus can make women more manly and men more feminine. venus conjunct sun or ascendant can make men less aggressive. a strong neptune will give a man a very feminine sensitivity.

[MasterBuilder224]

That is a very interesting perspective, and view into particular things, masterbuilder. How interesting! And you seem to have a refreshing confidence, mature perspective and understanding of gender roles and to sexual orientation.

How true, society has some crazy ideas on what it is to be a man/woman, heterosexual/homosexual/ and is generally unsure about bisexual, from what I can see.

I think your Mars touching the ASC affects your Venus on the ASC. And they're Cancer, you say? How very Angelina Jolie! I often think about how these arrangements have affected her physical makeup, and doesn't she have many distinct features!

You say many things there which raises many questions...and think there would be good conversation there! I began a course in sociology here and felt thrilled to find a constructive outlet for this kind of thought.


Thank you ByJove. Sociology is an interesting study but I've found that it's greatly aided by an extensive study of History. I'll give you an example. The first police unit in the history of America was formed in NYC in 1821 I believe. It was formed because the poor were robbing the rich, especially at Christmas. If we look forward 100 years we see the exact same types of conditions prevailing in NYC, the difference being the police unit was larger. For example, Ella Fitzgerald was a homeless child when she was introduced to the bandleader Chick Webb. Yes, homeless. If we look back 100 years to 1621 in England we will also see very similar conditions. conditions. Of course today in NYC we see the same conditions as those in 1821, the difference being there are more wealthy and middle income earners and a much larger police force. Of course this doesn't seem to deter the dominican teenage gangs at all just as it didn't deter the Irish and English gangs in the 1800s.

So if you're studying crime, drugs, homelessness etc in America, sociologically, how can we not study the structures that create these conditions? And the only way we can truly understand these structures is to examine them over time, to see if they are random or actually part of a serious pattern.

To be brutally honest, sociology is impossible without history. Political science is the same- impossible without hard history. And history, as we are all observing, is the microcosmic study of the macrocosmic influence of the Heavens on Earth.

As for my chart, my Venus-Mars combo is somewhat unusual in that my Asc. is at the Midpoint of Venus-Mars and Sun-Moon, with Sun being in Gemini and Moon being in Leo. It's an interesting combination and gives me very unique insights into Male and Female Essence and Expression, as well as Form and Function.

Having said all that, I'm extremely male in a profound, complete sense, not something as silly as heterosexual or "type A". I know very well how male lions and male deer, Bucks feel. Testosterone is a magnificent thing but never as magnificent as when it is ignited and magnetized by Estrogen, by Female Essence. This is the eternal dance of Life. Sex is merely a tool, a puppet. "Sexuality" is even more superficial and silly from this perspective.

A bull and a queen bee are never referred to as "heterosexual". Why? Because sex is never separated from Life with other animals. Yes, humans are animals. But we see this truth with plants and insects as well. A Black Widow is never called "heterosexual". The thought itself would never occur to anyone.

But with humans we have a host of make-believe words to explain the separation of the sexual act from Life itself. If you think about this nothing could be more paradoxical and delusional.

With the study of the Heavens we study the elemental forces of Life that shape and express male and female essence, and the ebb and flow of cultures, peoples and nations- all of which come from one thing- the union of male and female.

America is a very unique situation because we had a governmental structure before we had a culture. Usually it's the other way around. So we're still finding our way culturally with a lot of baggage from the past.

Dialogues of this sort are very good. Thanks for the reply. ;-)

[MasterBuilder224]

Things like this could only be for sure answered after studies looking at the charts of typical heterosexual men and effeminate heterosexual men--but I'd say the Moon and Venus and signs like Pisces would have something to do with it and the ascendant; even Mercury since it copies whatever planet it contacts and is androgynous in nature.

I wouldn't say my astrotwin Zac Efron to have effeminate traits, I don't know him personally, but he is effeminate looking and has a first house Venus conjunct Pluto in Scorpio, with Moon sextiling from Virgo. Mercury is conjunct Venus as well and with Moon&Mercury being convertible this gives him a strikingly effeminate face--I think I can see a bit of the 'trickster' Mercury in his eyebrows. He also has Venus sextile Neptune, and Moon trine Neptune very closely.

His chart ruler Mars is in Libra, as is the Sun. So his masculine planets are a bit effeminate as well (both under Venus rulership).

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/6901/230pxzacefron2007.jpg

I know this thread is about traits, but it'd be interesting to know how his mannerisms are as well. I would expect those to also be effeminate if he isn't hiding it to not appear gay. He's been teased about that in the media.

In my opinion those with feminine traits are going to have strong contacts to Venus/Moon in some way especially if they contact Neptune (but I wouldn't say Neptune alone).

Honestly, I think it's extremely difficult to have this discussion these days because the weakening and softening of American males through school and media culture has been extreme in the last 30 years.

Most notably as far as this picture above is concerned is the gay influence. Gays are most of the voices and minds behind fashion and all related things and I have personally watched gay styles become "the accepted" style for male youths over the last 15-20 years, just through media saturation which make "trends". Their is a gay mentality and perspective. They write about it all the time but the people don't think of it that way. Check out the book "Boi Culture."

The alternative to the above look is the "thug" look, which takes its inspiration from prisoners, most notably the style of wearing the pants far below the buttocks. This comes from the prison culture where it's a symbol of a submissive, obedient, emasculated male. The rest of the style looks borderline homeless and always juvenile.

The basic creed is for boys to look, act and think like Boys for as long as possible. You see this in fashion, you see it in the behavior of 40 year old men still trying to live out their 16 year old fantasies. I find this entire pattern disgraceful in the extreme.

Becoming a Man is barely a concept these days, let alone something one pursues, prepares for, works towards, is trained how to do- internally and externally.

If you put this exact same boy, same chart, in the 1930s in Virginia, he would think, look and act a completely different way- namely, he would have been learning how to be a man and physically doing things that come from and enhance male essence, form and function- from work to dress to speech and life goals.

Today we have superficial words trying to describe far deeper forces. Problem is these words are misshaping and separating consciousness from the deeper, true forces of Life.

One becomes a Man. One is not born that way. In the process one learns how to express the energy of the stars through one's Male Essence and Form. Essence leads, Form and Function follow.

For example, sensitivity has nothing to do with "effeminate" if you understand the deeper meaning of "sensitive" as meaning "aware".

By the same token, a man who expresses his heart is not "in touch with his feminine side." He is HONEST and unafraid of the consequences, good or bad. Honesty has nothing to do with feminine or masculine, nor does the Heart.

But these words and phrases litter the American consciousness and do nothing but obscure and warp people's minds and views. And as we know from the latest research in quantum physics, words and thoughts shape reality, in any direction.

It's all very unfortunate and often disgraceful. And I should add, to me the word Man automatically includes the words Wife and Children, Husband and Father. They are built in to the word Man. I do acknowledge some exceptions of course, such as the extremes of warrior and artist that often make wife and children impossible. And of course the monks who remove themselves from the cycles and rhythms and dance of Life entirely.

But these are extremes, like Nicola Tesla and Duke Ellington or the Dalai Lama or any number of samurai during the warring states period in Japan or similar warriors in the ancient Mediterranean world.

[ethertwist]

Honestly, I think it's extremely difficult to have this discussion these days because the weakening and softening of American males through school and media culture has been extreme in the last 30 years.

Most notably as far as this picture above is concerned is the gay influence. Gays are most of the voices and minds behind fashion and all related things and I have personally watched gay styles become "the accepted" style for male youths over the last 15-20 years, just through media saturation which make "trends". Their is a gay mentality and perspective. They write about it all the time but the people don't think of it that way. Check out the book "Boi Culture."

You make so many interesting and intriguing points in your posts and I really enjoy reading things written from a sociological perspective. I think it gets tricky when we talk about a fixed "gay style" or attribute all things soft and feminine in current male expression as being a byproduct of some dominant "gay aesthetic" because that would presuppose that the gay community has only one singular and monolithic mode of expression (gay= soft/feminine & lesbian=tough/masculine), which doesn't take into account the diversity in the gay community itself. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but as a gay person, I can attest to the fact that the gay community is constantly evolving and there is no one uniform that we agree upon. In fact, I'm seeing more of a rejection of the overly manicured steroetype these days among some gay men, especially as it becomes more prevalent among straight men, almost as a means of maintaining some differentiation between what is seen as "gay" and "straight". Fashion itself is changing in this regard, whether shaped by gay designers and editors or not, because currently there isn't as much of that pretty boy/beefcake look on the runways and in fashion magazines that we were seeing five or ten years ago. I agree with you that sexual orientation as a label should exist outside of the dialogue about gender expression and politics because in many ways, they're not as related as they may seem.

Sorry if I veered things off with an unrelated tangent! :happy:

[byjove]

With the aim of staying on topic in the thread, I'm curious masterbuilder, how you feel your conjoined Venus and Mars influence your nature? Can you give us example of your hobbies, your friendships etc. Also, can we see your chart, can you post it? There's more than these at play here - it's clear in your attitudes!

As a gay guy I contest a good deal of the above, but I think it's better if we move the sociology to another thread in general chat!

[MasterBuilder224]

You make so many interesting and intriguing points in your posts and I really enjoy reading things written from a sociological perspective. I think it gets tricky when we talk about a fixed "gay style" or attribute all things soft and feminine in current male expression as being a byproduct of some dominant "gay aesthetic" because that would presuppose that the gay community has only one singular and monolithic mode of expression (gay= soft/feminine & lesbian=tough/masculine), which doesn't take into account the diversity in the gay community itself. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but as a gay person, I can attest to the fact that the gay community is constantly evolving and there is no one uniform that we agree upon. In fact, I'm seeing more of a rejection of the overly manicured steroetype these days among some gay men, especially as it becomes more prevalent among straight men, almost as a means of maintaining some differentiation between what is seen as "gay" and "straight". Fashion itself is changing in this regard, whether shaped by gay designers and editors or not, because currently there isn't as much of that pretty boy/beefcake look on the runways and in fashion magazines that we were seeing five or ten years ago. I agree with you that sexual orientation as a label should exist outside of the dialogue about gender expression and politics because in many ways, they're not as related as they may seem.

Sorry if I veered things off with an unrelated tangent! :happy:


Not to offend you but I don't think there is such a thing as "gay" or a "gay community".

There is no such thing as "sexual preference" from the perspective of Life.

So-called gay people still build their entire existence/identity around the fundamental drive of Life- those organs and that organ complex. That's why it has somehow recently by given the words "gay" and such as their identity. But the root of the identity has not changed. Life still speaks but in an reversed, dead-end way.

As I'm sure you know, the phenomenon of men sticking their erections in places other than women is not new. What is completely new is numbers of people basing their Identity on this. Even in ancient Greece their was never a phenomenon like this because the Greeks never separated Life from Sex. They also never entertained the idea that a man would not be a father and husband. But there were words for men who had sex with other men and such. Greece was rather unusual with this. In Rome they were called "catamites" or quite simply "female impersonators".

To return to the present, despite all these invented words like "gender roles", "heterosexual" etc. the fundamental Life drive is still there, whether you "prefer" to have sex with another human or a plastic doll. This recent phenomenon called "gay" does not want the consequences of the Life cycle and organs. But it's not only gays who are removing themselves from the Life cycle. Americans over the last 30 years have become increasingly uncertain, afraid of, confused by and ambivalent about family, marriage, children etc, women and men. American men in particular have declined in every sense of the word since the late 1960s. Decline here defined by the word "virility" and all associated ideas and behaviors.

From the perspective of Life, a word like "sexuality" doesn't even scratch the surface of describing this development.

That's why I mention the monks and such as exceptions because they literally remove themselves in every way from all parts of the Life cycle. Gays and such do not. It's an entirely different phenomenon with completely different group-historical roots.

My point is not about the rightness or wrongness and such of these words and behaviors.

My point is about the deeper truth and reality of exactly what the phenomenon IS. They are not nearly as simplistic as they are presented to be, nor as irrelevant.

People accept these words without any examination or deep analysis, as I did in my youth. When examined from the perspective of Life, however, a very different picture emerges.

And I should the so-called lesbian phenomenon is an entirely different thing from gay. Totally and completely different in origin and function.

[MasterBuilder224]

With the aim of staying on topic in the thread, I'm curious masterbuilder, how you feel your conjoined Venus and Mars influence your nature? Can you give us example of your hobbies, your friendships etc. Also, can we see your chart, can you post it? There's more than these at play here - it's clear in your attitudes!

As a gay guy I contest a good deal of the above, but I think it's better if we move the sociology to another thread in general chat!

The Mars-Venus Asc. MP, along with the Sun-Moon Asc MP have blended the energies of these four planets into One energy, One ray so to speak.

This process has taken many years to refine, develop and fully comprehend. It gives me a synthesis of apparent opposites in just about everything I do, filtered of course through the signs involved- Gemini, Cancer and Leo.

Cancer is actually a very intense, passionate sign. I think people forget that it's Cardinal Water. Yes it's ruled by the Moon but it is the sign of giving birth itself. This is the most fundamental drive there is. So with Mars and Venus conjoined in Cancer at my Asc. I have a very cyclical, rhythmic nature that is also very intense and passionate.

So the combination of these energies makes as much an artist as a warrior/athlete...as introverted and internal as I am extroverted and public.....very refined in many ways but very bold and forceful in other ways...very empathetic but very proud, aloof and extremely self-confident..left and right brain have merged with me....analysis and creativity are the same.

But as I said, this fusion has taken decades to accomplish.

Of course, other parts of my chart amplify this. Pluto Quintile Ascendant...Saturn sextile Asc......Moon Sextile Uranus...Merc Conjunct Saturn Trine Pluto...Mars Squ Uranus....Sun Trine Jupiter...Sun Squ Pluto....and a host of Venus aspects- trines and sextiles primarily.

Where can I post my chart??

I'm not sure what you contest because from the perspective of Life, there really is nothing else but Life. Life does not care about anything but furthering itself. We see this truth in every other form of Life.

Love has absolutely nothing to do with life. Marriage is the attempt to set some boundaries on this drive for the peace and good of the community, people and nation. But even this attempt to regulate it often is unable to restrain its blind ambition. Sex is merely a tool, an outlet for this ambition.

That's why Love has never been a definition or requirement for marriage anywhere at any time on the globe.

Make no mistake. Marriage is about POSSESSION. It is the formalization of the basic drive to possess and make Life- from man to woman and esp. from woman to child. Love and other ideas come much further down the line and are optional. That's why we and every other culture have laws to govern the marriage arrangements. It is because possessions, human possessions and lesser things are involved.

This is what I mean when I say I know how male lions feel. The Male Lion is built for only two things, both intertwined: Conquest and Breeding. They must conquer another lion's pride in order to breed and possess their own offspring. Every ounce and second of their life is built for this. This drive is so great that they will kill all cubs from another male in order to throw Female Lions into heat and estrus, so they can breed and posses their own children.

I know this feeling all too well. And it has grown as I have matured. Compared to what I feel now, the "horniness" I knew as a youth is child's play. Horny couldn't even scratch the surface of the Drive for Life and possession that I feel.

Now if you wish to step outside of Life, then yes, you could certainly contest many of my views. You could describe a queen bee and a bull as heterosexual. You could say that communities, peoples and nations are exist because of something other than the union of male and female. You could say Sex has nothing to do with Life. Although biology might present a few problems with that- from the hypothalamus to the phallus, which of course are intimately connected, as you know.

But I have no problem with people who want to step outside of Life and remove themselves from the cycle. The discussion is entertaining either way.

[TayTay]

I guess what makes a man actually "feel" more on the feminine side is a Venus-Moon aspect. These are the typical ladies' men:love:.
Unfortunately, they can be major womanizers who love all women and no one woman in particular..

I kind of agree with this, especially about "Feeling" more feminine with a Venus-Moon aspect
I have Moon conjunct Venus, and I don't think I have particularly feminine/effeminate traits, but I FEEL more feminine than masculine often times.
I definitely don't think I sound anything but heterosexual, though, even though I'm a bit more soft spoken than most and am bisexual.
I think maybe sounding more effeminate would be more of a Mercury trait? So maybe aspects involving Mercury would show this a bit more? I'm not sure.

Others that could contribute to my "feeling" more feminine or having slightly softer features are probably my Venus trine Ascendant and Venus square Neptune aspects, but I don't think those are as powerful as the Moon-Venus aspect.

[virgo18]

-I heard that men with Virgo Moon have a "tendency" to be effeminate. As well as Libra or Taurus ascendants for men.

[byjove]

--raises hand to much of what was just said above ^^--

I've Cancer Rising
Virgo Moon
Moon opposition Venus
Venus in Pisces
Mercury in Pisces

mitigating
Sun in Aries
Mars in Gemini
Jupiter in 10th of Aries (clear to all from the 10th)

Basic mannerisms - not what we call 'effeminate'
But I can happily talk about emotions, and with Cancer rising, there are some days (not too frequent, thankfully) that I wake up feeling with the sensitivity of 20 people, and feel extremely vulnerable...horrible growing up with. But I've learned to not take things personally on these days, hide away for a comfy day and make no decisions, let the day pass. The next day I wake up feeling as strong and centered as the earth.

The fact is, I blur the lines, with some extreme contrasts. And little could embody that better than Mercury exactly on the MC weaving magic by exact trine to the AC to make sure the world hears. I think my Mars is extremely known of me too. And if the question is comes up, I'm male and gay.

[byjove]

8th house? Which house system do you use? I've Aqua on the 8th with no planets in it in Placidus.

To be honest, I'm not convinced we know enough to use Chiron. To me it's highly speculative. Maybe there is use for it. But to me Chiron is another one of those things that to me modern astrologers have spotted, discussed, labelled and stuck to like glue in about 5 seconds.

[virgo18]

8th house? Which house system do you use? I've Aqua on the 8th with no planets in it in Placidus.

To be honest, I'm not convinced we know enough to use Chiron. To me it's highly speculative. Maybe there is use for it. But to me Chiron is another one of those things that to me modern astrologers have spotted, discussed, labelled and stuck to like glue in about 5 seconds.



Sorry I didn't pay much attention to the houses and I made a mistake.... I also use placidus...
And I do use Chiron, (in spite many people don't use it) I think the aspects are important. In a very personal opinion.

[Earth Sign]

Thank you @ MasterBuilder224 and Byjove for your discussion on this this thread. I thought I'd link you to a thread started here quite a while ago that was inviting this sort of discussion, in case you'd like to revive it. It might be a more appropriate place for this topic.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23471

And MasterBuilder, if you already have your chart done on Astro.com or another website, you can save it to your computer and upload it on to the forum via the "Manage Attachments" button on the "Additional Options" section of the reply window. There's a how-to here:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126

Thanks for you thoughts. :)

[R4VEN]

To be honest, I'm not convinced we know enough to use Chiron. To me it's highly speculative. Maybe there is use for it. But to me Chiron is another one of those things that to me modern astrologers have spotted, discussed, labelled and stuck to like glue in about 5 seconds.
33 years is hardly 5 seconds.

It has been my own study of Chiron which drew me into astrology in the first instance. My own experience has been that astrology as a study was somewhat dry and meaningless without Chiron.

[byjove]

Well 33 years is nothing compared to 2,500 years of testing and resulting from the others! However, if you're confident in Chiron, you're surely the best person for me to learn a little from! If you're free for few mins, PM me and we could maybe take a stroll to the chat room. I honestly want to learn and have no intentions of arguing! Also, that way we could keep this thread on topic!

And as was touched on above, yes, I've read that Chiron-Venus contact can result in gender-bending (blurring of the lines).

[byjove]

I have another perspective to add to the mix...

different culture's perspectives of masculinity and femininity. Of course, this is really a scale of characteristics, which we consider to be 'feminine' or 'masculine'. I'm an Irish guy living in Italy at the moment, and the things I've seen here will change my understanding of this for life...

- my of my female friends here have said the guys shape their eyebrows better than the girls here
- body language which is (crudely, narrowly) associated with 'effeminate' men or gay men back home, is pretty standard here
- the male interest in fashion here, and the competence that follows is rarely seen in the society at home that I belong to. It is actually a totally different world here in Italy.

So I wonder do some of our ideas that we attach to people via natal aspects don't work very well because we carry the social conditioning of our home society, and we carry some social prejudices as such?

[theV]

Moon-Venus aspects
Sun-Venus aspects

Man with those aspect tend to be comfortable with their feminine side and don't mind being agreeable and charming. I have venus conjunct sun in virgo in the 2nd H square my moon conjunct jupiter in sag in the 5th H I am comfortable with Venusian things in life . Art and music ....etc

[may28gemini]

thank you very much, masterbuilder. you really hit a lot of homers in my book!!!!

i don't think astrology can give much window as far as people being "gay" "straight" or something "in-between." i don't think astrology can even show if a person is going to have a sex change or if they'll get their eyebrows perfectly waxed, or have a food allergy. astrology show the kind of energy and propensities you're born with so certain things could be easier for you, whereas, there's certain danger zones. nonetheless, a lot, if not most falls under free will and personal choices.

masculinity and feminism fall under social conditioning which changes over time depending on what the society deems "appropriate." society hasn't been sure about anything in the past 30 years or even longer. pretty much all my life i've been hearing about deconstructing everything and picking everything apart 1 by 1 and zeroing in that 1 particularity to be the problem or answer to the whole conundrum. life isn't simplified like that and neither are people. i don't quite understand why society has gotten to the point of obsessive nitpicking and wanting to label each and every single thing under the sun rather than just live and let live. the overwhelming necessity that people act out on is to compare and contrast themselves with what everyone else is doing and falling in line has become the utmost of priorities now.

but then again, it goes back to ambiguity and the uncertainty of what tomorrow brings and no one really wants to get left behind. as a society now, the way we live now, we've gotten comfortable about everything providing for us that we don't have to work hard to get anything anymore. there's a huge sense of self-entitlement to everything- being love, getting acceptance, having accolades, etc. without any actual hard work to earn any of it. it's like, why wait for someone to throw a party for me when i can throw one in my honor- that type of mentality is rampant. it's really sickening. because we're not busy working on anything of actual substance and have everything provided for, we have more time to ponder on useless topics that doesn't improve our lives in the very least- like who's gay and who's not. frankly, i don't care who's gay, who's having sex with who, who's in the closet, who's not doing what; all of that is completely irrelevant to me living my life.

this goes back to what was previous posted. my dad has libra mars and is taurus rising. my dad has 4 scorpio planet stellium in the 7th house which includes his venus. my dad's chart is mostly "feminine." he was born in the 50s and was part of the leo pluto generation. my dad has never as so much look, act, or sound "effeminate" in the entire time i've known him. granted, my dad is a well-groomed man, but like i said, he grew up in a generation that actually CARED about one presents oneself to the public. my dad isn't even "soft" in behavior either. sometimes my dad say mean things to me and my mom and he doesn't even mean it. when i say rude things to him (by accident or on purpose) he usually shrugs it off. it's just how my dad was raised in his family during the 50s and 60s generation where there were clear and definite definitions as what it's like to be a man or a woman. my dad took a lot of cr@p from me and my mom because he was raised that a man doesn't get bothered by petty things and the man should be generous and make more allowances to the woman.

on the other side of the pond,
i have a masculine chart of masculine rising with 3 masculine planets in the 1st house and 2 masculine planets conjuncting my rising. there are a total 6 air planets and 1 fire. all my masculine planets fall into the masculine houses and my 3 feminine planets fall into feminine houses. my venus is masculine but my mars is feminine. i don't look, act, nor sound masculine in the least. as a matter of fact, men who like women who are traditionally feminine will approach me first. now, i don't go around prancing in sun dresses and singing doris day, but my moves and mannerisms are soft and feminine. however, since i have mostly masculine energy in my chart, i think very masculine and despite my feminine pisces moon, i can easily cut people out of my life without thinking twice (masculine trait). again, if people were to check out my chart, they would think that i'd be a guy. i grew up with parents who are both part of the leo pluto generation and gave me very clearly defined definitions of what a man is and does and what a woman is and does. although i'm not a conformist, i do pay homage and quite thankful my parents at least gave me some sense of definition. that's probably why i don't tend to waver and oscillate so much like how other people born in the 80s (and afterwards) with being so uncertain about everything.

[JUPITERASC]

-I heard that men with Virgo Moon have a "tendency" to be effeminate. As well as Libra or Taurus ascendants for men.
Taurus and Virgo are feminine signs, however Libra is a masculine sign. Of course there are more chart factors to consider than solely the ascendant and moon!:smile:


Men with a feminine sun sign and women with a masculine sun sign may seem less obviously 'male' or obviously 'female' than men with a masculine sun sign or women with a feminine sun sign


THE MASCULINE SIGNS ARE

Aries, Gemini, Leo, Libra, Sagittarius and Aquarius


THE FEMININE SIGNS ARE

Taurus, Cancer, Virgo, Scorpio, Capricorn and Pisces.

[retinoid]

I have always forgot what gender I am. I don't want to be female (I am male), but I could be female easily. Like it never mattered to me. So sometimes I used to look in the mirror and say 'oh I am male'...I feel more 'nothing'...both. Also I have been attracted to both sexes yet have not really enjoyed sexual relations with either that much. I prefer more 'emotional'/companionship.

My moon (sagittarius) is conjunct venus (sagittarius) and uranus (capricorn) and sextiled by Mars (libra)

[theV]

I have always forgot what gender I am. I don't want to be female (I am male), but I could be female easily. Like it never mattered to me. So sometimes I used to look in the mirror and say 'oh I am male'...I feel more 'nothing'...both. Also I have been attracted to both sexes yet have not really enjoyed sexual relations with either that much. I prefer more 'emotional'/companionship.

My moon (sagittarius) is conjunct venus (sagittarius) and uranus (capricorn) and sextiled by Mars (libra)

As I wrote the Moon venus Male are not afraif of showing a charming and feminine side of them I also have A sagi moon