Michael Jacksons Chart [Archive] - Astrologers' Community

Miss Saturn

07-09-2006, 10:06 AM

Just been looking at celebrity birth charts, and Michael Jacksons was very interesting, although I knew it would be. His birth chart has probably been analyzed by every Astrologer out there. I thought I would practice what I would find in his chart, as I am still only learning most of the basics of Astrology.

Here are some of the interesting Planetary influences on his chart I thought described him pretty well.

Sun Conjunct Pluto - This really shows how hidden his persona is, how intensley private he is and how you can never really know who he is, because he never really reveals himself. Relating to his father as the Sun in the birth chart represents the father. There is a powerful influence here were the father holds a lot of power - Power Complex.

This conjunction falls in the 4th house, making this influence even more powerful - since this house is related to the early childhood home. The area of transformation is his home, family roots generally. The meaning I have read of this placement of Pluto in the 4th house - Pluto may cast a shadow across the path that leads back to your past, haunt you with feelings of statelessness and a profound inner lonliness. It is imperative that you should exorcize such a ghost.

The Moon is in Pisces - highly sensitive-dreaming of a better world, reigning need to feel accepted for who you are.

The Moon squares his Ascendant - All these feelings are not so readily apparent to others because your way of expressing yourself gives them the lie in some way.

Moon square Saturn - When Saturn touches a personal planet in the birth chart it tends to crave those things that the planet represents - Moon being childhood, he has always tried to get hold his childhood he feels he never really experienced it, having to grow up too soon, and also Saturn Moon finds it difficult to be the right age at the right time.- One of his songs being - Have you seen my childhood.

Moon in 10th house - All I have described above is made very public with this placing. Reflected in your professional life. Achievements up and down. Emotional security dependent on professional sucess.- Ultimately it is how much you have come to terms with the self image you acquired in childhood that determines your professional well-being.

Venus and Mercury in Leo - Highly Creative.

Mars in 12th house - Self assertion somewhat repressed and hard to get a handle on. Maleness or sex confusing or intimidating.

Relationships - Venus conjunct Uranus- Jump from one relationship to the other-divorce prone.

Saturn in 7th - Failing to commit yourself leads to feeling lonely or being alone.

There are lots of other aspects I didn't go through but these were enough to describe him pretty well. I know it is easier to do a chart on someone so publically famous.

Very interesting though his aspects and chart. Good practice as well in learning Astrology - I thought I would have a break from always looking at my own chart, sometimes it is harder reading your own chart, maybe I can refuse to see certain aspects of myself.

Miss S

wilsontc

07-09-2006, 05:11 PM

Miss,

Great job at analyzing Michael's chart! It looks like you are using the 11:45 PM birth time for Michael. If you could also give the birth information along with the analysis, this would help others to follow along with your interpretation. As you may know, there is a lot of confusion about Michael Jackson's exact birth time:
http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/JacksonMichael.htm

so it gets a very low Rodden rating for accuracy. As a result, the Moon aspects to planets are not reliable (since the Moon moves very quickly through the day: without an exact time, the Moon's position is unknown) in Michael's chart. But the rest of the planetary aspects you gave are "spot on"!

About astrological confusing,

Tim

Arian Maverick

07-09-2006, 05:13 PM

I will upload Michael Jackson's natal chart here for easier accessibility:

http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/1717/michaeljacksonnatalchart4ad.png (http://imageshack.us)

Arian Maverick

07-10-2006, 11:58 AM

I thought that the details of MJ is 29 Aug 1958 at 11:53pm. Probably wrong though

Using the above, I thought Mars in 12th is interesting as it indicates a secret sexual practices maybe. Also mars square venus probably adds to some sexual confusion.

Otherwise, yes, 7th house saturn - looking for a father figure or parent in a personal relationship.

And Gemini Asc - forever young. Aquarian MC 0- "heal the world" and obviously the eccentricities.

Jupiter in the 5th is also very apt (and conj N node) - he had obviously a lot of luck (as well as talent) back then. Conj to Nept in 5th probably helps with the illusory/dreamy sensation of him more particularly when he was younger. This is also sextiling his sun.

Venus conj Uranus - disruption in romances maybe. Also conj IC probably adds a very a bit of hush hush to romances of his.

I suppose Sun in 4th and in virgo makes him a bit retiring and perfectionistic. And as Ms S, combined with pluto, controlling. His Dad? Also with wide square to Saturn

Moon in 10th - just part of his art, expression of his emotions publicly. With is squaring of saturn that might be repression of emotion or his dad repressing it.

Miss Saturn

07-10-2006, 01:04 PM

Hi 23,

Good point on the Ascendant, I was trying to think what it would represent, I was thinking dual nature. But yes forever young is a good way to describe his Gemini Ascendant.

Also what you said about the perfectionistic Controlling father at home. This is true, Michael had to constantly learn his dance routines and practice his singing and performing.

Jupiter in 5th larger than life performer. Aquarius on MC describing his eccentricities, which are very much in the public eye.

This describes Michael Jackson so well.

07-10-2006, 10:36 PM

I suppose another way of describing MJ's asc is Peter Pannish, not wanting to grow up, hence his Neverland and kids as well as sexual ambiguity.

But Miss Saturn, you are right; in his day, he certainly was a larger than life performer and you are right about venus and mercury in leo - lover of performing/entertaining and a thinking to pretty much perform/entertain. Probably uranus-venus conjunction also making him a very fresh/new/innovative enertainer. He also has shocked us at times. It is very apt that these two planets are in the 3rd house too.

Miss Saturn

07-11-2006, 06:54 AM

Thanks for the help 23,

Also I was looking for all the surgery he has had and trying to find it in his chart.

I looked at his Sun conjuct Pluto - Transformation to self, but this alone would not indicate the surgery.

Would his chart ruler indicate it, he has Gemini Ascendant so his chart ruler is Mercury. As the first house represents, the physical body, appearance, identity, persona.

Mercury conjunct Pluto - Obsessive thinking about, Appearance, self image. With Mercury and Pluto in the 4th house it stems from his obsessive thinking about what happened in his early childhood.

Mercury square Mars - Mars can represent cutting. Knives. I can only think all these angry thoughts are directed on to himself, and then the need to have surgery which Mars rules to transform appearance Sun conjunct Pluto.

Also from Mars there is a square to Venus which would add to surgery to appearance. Also the Venus conjunct Uranus dramatic change to appearance.

Not sure if I have interpreted right, but I am learning to put repeated themes in a chart together, and this is what I found for Michaels appearance. One factor alone I wouldn't have come up with this but there are lots to consider here.

I am still trying to work out the Neptune in the 6th with a conjunction from Jupiter in the 5th.

Miss S

07-11-2006, 07:15 AM

Miss Saturn - I think from my minimal knowledge of astrology, you have pretty much have said what I think re plastic surgery. I think your points are all valid. Surgery is scorpionic by nature and is ruled by mars (the knife). he also has a quincunx between his North Node and mars - some uneasiness between his surgery and future life; and also with saturn - uneasiness with parents or career in general? Also I interpreted mars as sexual practices as well.

However, the chart that I am using (11:53pm birthtime) has neptune in the 5th. Regardless of which house neptune falls in, it makes sense. In the 5th, its the expression of his spirituality/emotionality/dreaminess through entertainment and in the 6th, it is his service or job. Either way it makes sense.

The conjunction between Jupiter and Neptune probably deepens his spirituality and ability to express his already present luck to entertain in his case. Jupiter in the 5th probably also means maybe travel through entertainment.

07-11-2006, 07:20 AM

Also N node sits in libra - some quest in beauty maybe. And when things don't work out, a falling back to the S node in Aries. Conquest through music and popularity in the community and friends in his case. The other day he asked Eminem to help him restart his career. Not sure if him and Em are friends though :)

Also notice that the only "outwardly focused" planets/points (on the eastern side of the chart) are moon, south node, mars, uranus and venus and "outwardly" planets (above the horizon) are mars, S node and moon.

Miss Saturn

07-11-2006, 11:04 AM

Yes Travel through entertainment couldn't spot that one. The meaning I have read on Jupiter/Neptune - Utopian ideal that everyone is kind and beautiful deep down. But to avoid being dangerously gullible, ponder on the fact that everything is good and beautiful and laid back as it is - not as you fancy it to be.

You do not in any way have minimal knowledge of Astrology, you have an excellent eye for detail, you have pointed lots of different aspects out to me, that I didn't spot and explained them clearly. You have a great understanding of this subject.

I will have a look at the Nodes in MJs chart, as I am interested in his direction in life.

Miss S

Miss Saturn

07-11-2006, 08:33 PM

I was looking for wealth in Michaels Chart, here is what I came up with.

Michaels 2nd house ruler the Moon is in the tenth, but I can't really depend on this as birth time unreliable.

Capricorn is on the cusp of the 8th house and it's ruler is Saturn.

Aspects made from Saturn the 8th house ruler.

Saturn trines Uranus which is ruler of M.C. Uranus is in the third house and it conjuncts Venus, which rules communication/voice Money earned through these activities.

Saturn trines Mercury his chart ruler, which brings in money made from communication/singing. Mercury conjuncts Pluto "powerful voice" and sextiles his Jupiter/neptune being in his fifth house larger than life performing. Also Mercury opposes his M.C linking back to his career.

Jupiter/Neptune are able to manifest money. Faiths and beliefs seem to bring wealth.

Saturn trines Venus/leo/3rd - Again income earned with these activities. Creativity/performing/singing.

Also a 4th house Sun - Destiny and family will help propell the person to succeed.

His Jupiter is at 28 degrees and this means the potential to achieve something special - It is in the 5th house so again this larger than life performer. With Saturn being in Sagitarius and Jupiter rules this house all links back to how he earns his money.

I am not stating any of this to be true, I might be completely wrong, if I am could someone please tell me where I am going wrong in my interpretation.

Miss S

wilsontc

07-11-2006, 10:17 PM

Saturn,

Aspects between Jupiter (expansion) and Pluto (other people's money) can indicate wealth in a chart, and Michael has Jupiter sextile (energy goes easily with) Pluto.

Valuing Michael,

Tim

Miss Saturn

07-11-2006, 10:53 PM

Yes Tim, Missed that one it may be more important as well because Jupiter being at 28 degrees any aspects made to this planet will be very significant. Like chart ruler Mercury, Neptune and Pluto.

Miss S :)

07-12-2006, 11:34 PM

What a great explanation Miss Saturn :), you really have taught me something with your analysis of the rulers of houses and their houses. I tend not to look at those things when I do a chart.

Also because of venus-saturn trine, his career has been long but maybe not stable at times because of the venus-uranus conjunction. Still his career is stable enought and has produced him a lot of wealth. I'm sure as Tim said, that has a lot to do with the relationship between Jupiter and Pluto too.

I think we should also see what we can extract about venus, being the planet associated with singing through rulership of Taurus. Interestingly, tau is his 12th house. I suppose it is about singing with complete fusion with the universe and deep from within with maybe a spiritual aspect. Also the other sign ruled by venus, makes the 2nd and 3rd decan of the 5th house. I think also there is a biquintile between moon and venus, very helpful in this case. Surprisingly, that is the only bq in the chart. Otherwise, there is a quintile between venus and jupiter - luxury, money, singing etc all linked. Again the only quintile in his chart.

I am pretty sure that the details that either you or I for MJ is right. Our analyses of these charts match him to perfectly.

Also what is the significance of the 28th degree? Is that a Sabian thing or a pre-anarectic thing?

I was reading that a planet in the 2nd degree adds a lot of power to a person. I think I read it on astrologyinserbia.com. Queen Victoria has a multitude of planets in this degree around her chart and as we know she was on the throne for a number of decades. MJ has Neptune on the 2nd degree in Virgo. I am sure this has contributed a lot to his fame and life path both for his singing career in general and his appearance (the melting, gradual change of it). I wonder if if Neptune's "trine" with the 12th house cusp has some significance here?

Any ideas?

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?rs=3&btyp=w2gw&&cid=knrfileb4qFJi-u972786153&nhor=18139203

Miss Saturn

07-13-2006, 03:49 PM

Hi 23,

Also Jupiter in the 5th house, big involvement with children. The Jupiter/Neptune connection involved in big charity causes for children. Big/healer/children. M.C Uranus World Organisations.

Concerning career yes there has been lots of ups and downs, which would be the connection to Uranus.

Venus connected to his singing Venus in Leo- being the Regal sign King of Pop Music/Entertainment.

Venus conjunct Uranus - His singing style is very unique, he also has a lot of breaks in his singing i.e woo hoo hee hee (if you get what I mean :D )
Unique entertainer/shocking entertainter. He can sing quite quickly. (Venus sqaure Mars) Overall an Innovative expression of his singing.

Venus trine Saturn - great strength to his singing, staying power. Also Saturn/Venus career in music/creative fields.

Venus sextile Ascendant - Uses singing, entertaining as an external way of expressing himself. As Ascendant represents self expression, identity, character all link back to the third house.

Venus Associated to to the 12th through Taurus - yes I would seem to think spirituality through his singing. Soulful singing. Adds sensitivity to his singing, more when he is singing love songs or his spiritual songs i.e Heal the world type of song adds a vulnerability to the voice. Maybe he finds escapism when he is singing, forgets about his childhood/past trys to heal through singing.

The planets at degrees I got this from a book which talks a bit about Natal Promise in the chart. Here is the explanation of them from my book.

When I am doing a chart and I see planets at 27, 28, and 29 degrees. I make note because this person has the potential to achieve something special. I have seen many clients who have planets at these degrees who are very rich. I have alot of Millionaire clients who have real estate holdings with Sun at 29 Cancer.

It seems MJs chart with having Jupiter at 28 in Libra 5th house did seem quite fitting being linked to Entertainment/Travel/Abundance through relating artistically through his voice Libras ruler placed in the 3rd.

Neptunes connection to 12th house cusp - High spirituality, the 6th house and 12th house axis - Possibly service to others through his spiritual/using Imagination through his Taurus sign on the cusp, which links back to his third house Venus singing - service/imagination/singing.

That was the best guess I could give on the house cusps as I am not used to working with them.

Miss S

Missa

07-15-2006, 06:33 AM

07-15-2006, 08:46 AM

Again great analysis Miss Saturn :) I will have to look a bit more at his chart to see if I can see anything else but it would now be a bit like extracting blood out of a stone for me.

I was thinking, would you like to join me for another person's analysis? Maybe someone who is well known like Bill Clinton or Britney Spears.

Missa- I thought Gemini were short and thin traditionally. I know a couple of gem sun and asc people and they are very petite. He is though a Virgo with Gem rising according to the details that I used and that would probably be average height for a guy.

As for plastics, we kind of explained through aspects how that has occurred but I also think the fact that he is gem rising would give him at least more than one appearance as we know gemini "has two faces". Also the gradual change of his face of the years might indicate at least some mutability somewhere. He does have Gemini teeth (bit horseish).

Here's some pictures of MJ in his younger days:

http://www.multinet.no/~jonarne/Hjemmesia/Favorittartister/michael_jackson/michael-jackson-early-years.jpg

http://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artist_biographies/Michael_Jackson_biography.jpg

After some plastic surgery:
http://www.multinet.no/~jonarne/Hjemmesia/Favorittartister/michael_jackson/michael_jackson_7.jpg

http://snaps.snapsoid.com/~popstar_michael-jackson_with_michael-jackson#snapsbig

ha ha!

You can see his face is very round, probably more of a virgo thing. Geminis tend to have quiet long faces.

Miss Saturn

07-15-2006, 01:06 PM

Hi 23,

I think we have extracted a lot from his chart, I have really enjoyed analyzing it. It is always bettter when you have others to work it through with you.

One last thing I was thinking about was his court case. I think Saturn in Sagitarius in the 7th possibly relates to this.

Sagitarius Law, Jupiter rules this sign and is placed in the 5th house/children.

Saturn Authority, being judged, feeling persecuted. Saturn rules the 8th Hidden/Secret Life/Sex. I think Pluto rules courts but not too sure on that.

Saturn in the 7th rules Adveraries/Others/Public/Opposition

Possibly this represents his Very public Court Case with allegations of child abuse. Being brought to court/law.

Also Missa isn't Michael over 6ft, he looks smaller on T.V and because he is a good dancer. The Gemini Ascendant - Related to his appearance when you look at him now to the way he used to look - Two very different people. Other people have had plastic surgery, but not to the transformation MJs had. Black/White.

I will take a look at Bill Clintons Chart to see what I can find. I am not really into Politics. It will be a test for me. But worthwhile in my learning.

Miss S

07-15-2006, 11:24 PM

Yes thats good Miss S. Pluto would rule criminal law - things involving crime/death/sex etc and its investigation. Pluto also is sitting in the 4th, indicating some exploration of his more private/homely affairs.

Saturn is also the authority/government, here is might the public prosecutions and it is analysing his relationships (7th house).

But I think your overall analysis is right about the court case.

I don't know what to make out of his part of fortune though. It indicates luck through sag pursuits (might be simply expansion) and through relationships. The only thing that I can link it to is that it is in Sag and as we know, his jupiter is quite pivotal in his life.

See you at Bill's

Miss Saturn

07-19-2006, 10:20 PM

I found this little piece on Michael Jackson, I did type all of this last night. Then the system turned funny and I lost all my hard work, and I couldn't get on the Site this morning either must be due to technical difficulties.

Moon square Saturn gives a mother complex and emotional inhibitions from early childhood experiences. This square effects his reputation, career, relationships, and financial affairs.

The father used to beat Michael with a belt. Cancer and Capricorn occupy the two houses due to interception, have strong Karmic lessons in this life.

He tends to live in the past and has a skin disorder called "Vitiligo". Michael actually has Lupus according to the Lupis foundation, but does not want it revealed. Lupis is a Saturn disease, is a circulatory disorder. There are several types of the disease, favourable under prolonged treatment. It can result from enervation (part through activation of the nerves), causing white spots that grow slowly as the pigment dissappeared making sunlight dangerous, Saturn opposed the Ascendant: Skin troubles Moon sqaure Saturn is hereditary diseases. He also underwent cosmetic surgery several times Uranus Pluto Midpoint I.C: The process of daring transformation to bring about new changes.

Miss S

wilsontc

07-19-2006, 11:04 PM

Missa,

You asked:
...how about a square between Jupiter and Pluto?

I think ANY aspects between Jupiter and Pluto can indicate wealth of some sort. And Jupiter is the one planet that challenging aspects don't affect too much...except to make Jupiter's expansion even MORE expansive!

Jupiterally,

Tim

Maries

09-05-2006, 05:25 PM

RealityStarfish

09-06-2006, 06:01 AM

Wow, Miss Saturn, you're right, those aspects of the chart described Michael Jackson pretty well.

Do you see anything in his chart which would indicate that he would/ could mollest a child? You mention a confusion about his "maleness", but what about this aspect? Is it more than sexual confusion? Does he "love" little boys? It seems to me that his Peter Pan-ness might even take it to the extreme that he would relate to a child as a child would play, say, doctor with another child. Not as an adult would mollest a child, but as one child would sexually experiment with another. Does anyone see this in his chart?

I'm not sure if there's any aspect of the chart that indicate/imply Michael Jackson would/could molest a child. Personally, I don't think he would do such a thing as he has a pretty tough childhood himself. He created neverland so that he could bring joy to all children and give them a childhood that he never had. I watched the episode on True Hollywood Story, a biography about Michael Jackson. Maybe you can call me gullible, but through that one special episode about him, I believe him about 80% (although his face creeps me, no offence). I hold the other 20% accountable for the fact that I know not everyone would take on a positive life path after an abusive childhood.

RealitytStarfish

Lin

06-01-2007, 09:40 PM

I use the 7:54 a.m. chart. The 12th house focus and strong Saturn (4 degrees from the nadir) give me confidence in using it.

Anyway, regardless of the time, Sun conjs. Pluto, Sun opposes Moon, Saturn inconjuncts Mars, Jupiter conjs. Neptune - one can study Michael using either chart, or even a solar chart.
LIN

Sag Moon

06-01-2007, 10:16 PM

I was looking at his chart and he is having Sa at the IC which tells me he is at the stage of clearing out things.This is the low point now for hime and he shall be making a comeback after this.

He must be having a hard time leting go of his possesions at this time.

Shining Ray

06-01-2007, 10:49 PM

Courtney Love

06-25-2009, 11:28 PM

TMZ.com says Michael Jackson is dead, of a heart attack...

anyone gonna try and rectify his chart? This seems so weird to me...

katydid

06-25-2009, 11:35 PM

I think it may have been induced by effects of drugs unfortunately. I am sad to see him go so suddenly, but i think his life was very troubled in recent years. I hope he can resolve these issues next time.

Steeler

06-26-2009, 12:07 AM

Induced by drugs, why so?
RIP. He was a great musician.

katydid

06-26-2009, 12:14 AM

Induced by drugs, why so?
RIP. He was a great musician.

Word on the street was that he has been taking a LOT of prescription drugs, much like Elvis did in his final days. He was supposedly taking Xanex and Oxycontin and Vicodin by the hand full. :bandit:

Steeler

06-26-2009, 12:16 AM

Word on the streets is usually that. Word on the streets.
The doctors will inform us if this is true...
Sad that he now has left 3 children behind. :(

katydid

06-26-2009, 12:27 AM

Word on the streets is usually that. Word on the streets.
The doctors will inform us if this is true...
Sad that he now has left 3 children behind. :(

It is very sad for the children. But I think it was also sad for them in their regular lives at times. They wore MASKS on their faces whenever they were in public. Which was rarely. When they went to a toy store or an amusement park, it had to be closed down first, that is sad imo. :bandit::ninja:

Also, isn't it odd that he had a massive heart attack? i mean, he was not that old, and was NOT over weight at all. Sounds suspiciously like drugs to me. :alien:

katydid

06-26-2009, 01:02 AM

Oh fun. I recently felt a HUGE pain in my heart....
Or not that fun but...strange.
I'm not a huge fan so wonder why i picked it up.:unsure:
Mars Trine Neptune?

/JJ

Maybe Mars trine neptune. The whole world felt a huge pain probably. I was born in 52, so I was more of his generation. THRILLER was HUGE for us. He was the ultimate music genius, and was an icon, like the Beatles or Bob Dylan.
I loved him. But I think it is tragic how his life played out.
And he had a big effect upon my life, because we REFUSED to allow our daughter, who was kind of a musical prodigy, to continue her musical career when she was younger. Her agent wanted her to be home schooled, and to sign a production deal. She just wanted to be a kid again and go back to school with her friends. That is just what she did, and NOW that she is 17, she is getting back to her career. But we used MJ as an example of WHY she should not skip her childhood, and go on to her music career. I am glad we made that decision too. :joyful:

DiDi

06-26-2009, 01:50 AM

I got up this moring suspecting to hear of farrahs passing, not MICHAEL JACKSON!!!

my fav album // off the wall:wink:

I find most virgo sun people i know have a healthy stash of perscription and over the counter drugs... ( i dont know michael so i have no idea if he was the same)

looking for some plannetry signs of problems... ( i know it depends on your own chart) but sun is opp pluto ?
jupiter nept and chiron in aqu squaring venus and mars conjunction squareing moon last night

AquariusT

06-26-2009, 01:52 AM

He does have :venus::uranus: SQ. :mars: and SQ. :neptune: so that may answer some questions I always had over the years.

My first thought was that he was exercising or something, then I thought drugs for sure. But, now it may seem with these planets and aspects that it was disease.

CNN said Ambulance arrvied 12:30 PM PDT and he was Pronounced at 3:15 PDT.

Courtney Love

06-26-2009, 01:53 AM

I remember when MJ was first accused by the kid he ultimately paid off, Pepsi dropped him because he went to rehab over a painkiller addiction. In later years his emaciated appearance had alot of people talking about him living off of amphetamines... He was very very thin, and everyone knows speed kills...

I was not a huge fan, my mom was, but for some reason his death just shocked and hurt me. I don't know why...

R4VEN

06-26-2009, 02:28 AM

Well after I did this chart with 23, I recently seen his chart printed in Liz Greenes book Dark of the soul. This chart has a scorpio Ascendant, and the Moon is in the 4th house Pisces and opposes Pluto in the 9th house. Michaels mother was highly religious she and Michael and the rest of the family were all Jehovahs witnesses. I had to look up more of his biography to find this out to see if it matched his chart. Astrobank have an Aries Ascendant chart and two of my computer astrology programs have the Gemini Ascendant birth chart. But I think the Scorpio Ascendant Chart kind of fits better, but it is difficult to judge.
I hadn't even known of his death until I came to this thread. Serves me right for avoiding the news services. I find it sad that such an enormous creative talent got waylaid by whatever it was troubled him. Oprah Winfrey suggested (on her show several years ago) that Michael perhaps had that body dysmorphia condition - where he perceived himself as terribly ugly, and in need of corrective surgery. All that surgery would take its toll, and I'm sure he was in constant physical pain.

The chart I have for him has Scorpio Asc. This puts his Sun-Pluto conjunction in the 10th, which seems appropriate. His excessive need for control of all aspects of his life is very Scorpionic.

stargirl

06-26-2009, 02:38 AM

He had to have been dead long before 3:15 pm with the EMT doing CPR en route. I figure if emergency was called at 12:15, and according to the news he was already not breathing....TOD is probably more likely to be 12:05, or so. I'm running a chart to look at the line up, but I hate not having an accurate TOB.

Niplan

06-26-2009, 06:02 AM

8th house aries ruled by mars, conjunct venus in her sigh, wich is opposing the point of fortune in scorpio ruled by mars.. the moon is opposing retro jupiter, and the moon just moved into the first degree

there is also a grand trine between saturn, lillith, and mercury venus. Forming a kite to the point of fortune.

thats what stands out the most.

lillyjgc

06-26-2009, 06:49 AM

Hi,
If the birth time isn't known with certainty, we have to omit looking at the houses and house rulers in the chart. As the part of Fortune moves fast, we cant use that either.
The media has been reporting Michael Jackson's ill health for weeks.It isn't a *rumour* that he was taking prescribed medications, with which he has had a long struggle.
When the exact Time of death is made available to the public, someone here may be interested in rectifying his chart.
I would expect to see afflictions in his second house of self worth and very much an afflicted ascendant.Due to the number of surgeries he has purportedly had, perhaps Mars will be a big player.
Michael Jackson has had a life fraught with both difficulty and the illusions of *success*. The last twenty years of his life have caused him enormous emotional pain. Acquitted of serious crimes, judged by all,(especially by the Media); ever changing his appearance and reinventing himself, but musically talented outside the norms and an amazing dancer who wanted to be the new Fred Astaire.
All of that would be reflected in the Natal chart.
One thing we can say though-he has a Natal sun/Pluto conjunction and the sun has recently opposed Pluto.
Cheers
Lillyjgc

Shining Ray

06-26-2009, 07:59 AM

This is shocking news this morning, I like R4ven read about his death first in this thread. I was not expecting this I will have to check his transits with the Liz Greene chart, but the poor children have just lost their father. I did a Thread a while ago on his career comeback and the "re-birth" of the King, before he retired but now it looks like it symbolised the end of his career, not a re-birth.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4279/michaelcomebacknew.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8921/michaelcomeback.jpg)

The transits I listed on the other thread still apply Saturn square Saturn, Pluto trine Pluto, Pluto still in orb trining the Sun. Transiting Chiron/Jupiter/Neptune in Aquarius are opposite his 8th/10th house ruler Mercury in Leo.

lillyjgc

06-26-2009, 08:30 AM

Okay-Heres a list of the birth times of Michael Jackson-all reputedly *the correct* one:
11.53 pm
astrotheme says 10.00am
astrodatabank gives it a DD rating
12:45 pm
Skyscript suggests 11:43 pm

These are the other times for which I found charts drawn for him:
10.30pm ;1.30 am; 7 45 am and 9.00pm.
Take your pick!
Lilly

Koheli

06-26-2009, 08:33 AM

It is interesting to note how the Jupiter/Neptune/Chiron conjunction played a role in opening an energy portal for MJ's transition.

All three were in opposition to MJ's Mercury (the ruler of his ascendant). Along with an inconjunct boost from Uranus, not to mention the 50 year Chiron Return.

It is also interesting how the Moon at the last minute touched Venus the ruler of his 12th House (the house of the veil between dimensions), right when he left this plane.

There is some interesting commentary here in this article about his death:

Michael Jackson Death and Astrology (http://www.astrologytipsandtricks.com/2009/06/michael-jackson-death-and-astrology.html)

starlink

06-26-2009, 09:17 AM

Thank you Koheli for the link. I still can't believe he is dead. So young, but I think the poor guy was never really happy and maybe this is actually a relieve to him.
There was recently a thread in this forum about predicting death. Now with two examples (I am sure Farah Faucet's natal chart is also to be found and her hour of death was in the internet) it would be interesting to look at the circumstances (planet's positions).

Starlink.

starlink

06-26-2009, 02:40 PM

Guys, here is another very interesting link which was posted by another member, Koheli, in this same Celebrity forum. [merged into this thread since it covers the same topic - Tim Wilson]
Then there is yet another discussion about MJackson and Farah Fawcett who died both on this day, posted by Tikana in Transits.http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/misc/tag.png Farrah Fawcett and Michael Jackson (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17354) I was thinking of merging all these into one thread, but seeing that we now have about 3 different charts (I think), will make it messy I believe. Have a look there as well.

Starlink

ladyanachronism

06-26-2009, 02:55 PM

http://www.tarot.com/articles/astrology/michael-jackson-astrology-profile?feature=ds-t2-ln-michael-jackson-obit&spot=T2-Michael+Jackson+Obit&
Tarot.com have also done an article I thought you guys may like to read.

I am shocked and sad. That's all I have to say. :(

dreamtimez

06-26-2009, 06:19 PM

I found this while surfing ...
http://www.personal-astrology.com/Stars/Michael-Jackson-Birth-Chart.aspx

Not feeling like analyzing it right now. I feel sad. Listening to "Off the Wall" ... childhood memories.

Nexus7

06-26-2009, 06:43 PM

Nexus7

06-26-2009, 09:02 PM

...apparently though, he may really have had a skin conditon responsible for his paleness, though that still speaks of a strong Saturn role.

I have seen a Libra Ascendant that also puts the nodal axis right there, too. There does seem to be an element of narcissism in someone who changed his appearance to the degree he did.

katydid

06-26-2009, 09:28 PM

Is Liz Greene's chart for Jackson her rectification?

I heard Gemini rising, but that sounds a bit too pat for me.

Personally I would suspect an angular Saturn. One of my students, who is a qualified physician, told me that he beleived the cause of death might be because Jackson had had to take drugs to stop his body rejecting a skin transplant - and these affect the heart.

Even if he had not done this, the fact that he'd had so many operations to alter the colour and appearance of his skin - presumably because he was not in the first case able to accept what he was born with - speaks not of Peter-Pan Gemini fantasies, but of issues with Saturn.

The gemini rising chart has Saturn exactly on his 7th. That looks pretty accurate in that he never really had any relationships to speak of.
And it puts his Mars in the 12th, which works for his 'a-sexual' energy.
And the Mercury, ruler of the asc is in Leo in the 4th.

Of all the charts that I have seen in the threads, this Gemini asc one fits the best imo. :bandit:

Nexus7

06-26-2009, 09:33 PM

I was wondering if he had an angular Saturn somehow. I would expect it to play a big role in his chart.

The Libra rising puts the SNode in his 7th too, and makes Mars the ruler too, though...but Saturn then did not appear to be angular in the Libra-rising chart I saw then.

aquarius7000

06-27-2009, 03:46 AM

Hi, I've been looking at Michael's chart, and here are a couple of my findings.

Let us begin with the Sun-Pluto conjunction, which is the most 'captivating' constellation in Michael's chart, and, which had his life in its grips. With Pluto conjunct the Sun, Michael was not only a very private and determined person, a very magnetic personality, etc, but he also had a big transformation (Pluto) of his identity/his core (Sun) on his life's agenda. We all know that those cosmetic surgeries.. were, well, not just some surgeries; but through them, he tried to give him-self (Sun), not only on the outside, but also inside a complete (Pluto) revamping (Pluto). Look at the extremity and intensity (Pluto) with which he tried to transform and re-define (Pluto) him-self to the core (Sun). With each such transformation, each time, a part of him/his identity (Sun) died (Pluto) and another persona/character (Sun) was regenerated (Pluto). As things often originate in the mind; Pluto conj Merc triggered all this in his mind and made him obsessed (Plu) with such thoughts (Mer). This Pluto-Sun conjunction plus the planets in Leo, esp Venus (sense of liking, even self-liking; beauty; aesthetics) and Mercury (thinking) as well as Pluto-Merc conjunction; all made him quite narcisstic. His Virgo Sun was given to perfection, and, with Pluto so close to his Sun, he was obsessed with it. One more thing worth noting here is that, going by the 11:53 PM TOB, the Sun-Pluto conjunction falls in the 4th house of family and early childhood, and we all know that the transformation of Michael's identity (though not through cosmetic surgeries at that time) started well in childhood and at the hands of his family. One very marked point about the Sun-Pluto conjunction in MJ's life was an almost cruel/manipulative/very controlling (Pluto) father (Sun). This conjunction also gave Jackson a scandalous and shady (Pluto) image with many dark and some uncovered secrets (Pluto) about him (Sun). Finally, Lisa M. Presley said that had an immense fear (Plu) of death (Plu) and once mentioned to her that he knew that he would die young, just like Elvis Presley.

Now, look at his Uranus-Venus conjunction in Leo. His sense of beauty and aesthetics (Ven) was a bit bizarre (Uranus) and made him undertake eccentric actions (Uranus) time and again to change his looks (Venus), in his efforts to give himself a new self-expression (Leo planets). Jup in Libra, and, as per the 11:53 PM TOB, in the 5th house (of Leo) further expanded, no, put it all on the excessive mode. Nep conjunct it plus sextiling his Sun further blinded him, and, together with his Piscean Moon, helped him create a world of illusion. Briefly back to the Ura-Ven conjunction; this, of course, also explains his bizarre and short-lived relationships, perhaps emerging from sheer loneliness (an angular Sat on the Dsc; plus aspecting many of his personal planets). Sat on the Dsc explains lack of real and long-term relationships, plus his immense loneliness even within those short relationships he had.

Interviews of people, who have personally met him, report that he was quite shy, sensitive, gentle and kind. This can be attributed to his Virgo Sun (shyness and even humility to a certain extent) plus the Piscean Moon (withdrawn and shy, sensitive). He gave big donations and was seen as very generous: Leo planets, Pisces Moon, and again, going by the 11:53 PM TOB, the Nep-Jup conjunction in the 5th house (of Leo) is all quite self-explanatory, when it comes to the huge donations he gave for children suffering around the globe. As Wiki puts it: <Jackson founded the "Heal the World Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heal_the_World_Foundation)" in 1992. The charity organization brought underprivileged children to Jackson's ranch, to go on theme park rides that Jackson had built on the property after he purchased it.
The foundation also sent millions of dollars around the globe to help children threatened by war and disease.> This seemed his way of re-living his own childhood in a way he never had, and healing himself through 'healing the world' (and its children). Neptune in the 5th along with Jup can also be seen as the scandalous shroud (sexual abuse of children) that long covered him. Further, that N-Node conjunct the two planets in the 5th, also shows that not only performing and creativity was his direction in life, but also his attraction to children and his own self-expression (5th house) through them.

The prominent, angular and aspectful Saturn in his chart made him a person with a lot of self-complex and self-doubt. His sense of personal security (Moon) was gullible (Moon in Pisces) and seemed constantly threatened (Sat square Moon), always making him very concerned as to how he came across to others (Sat on Dsc and opp his Asc; Leo planets) and his public image (Moon in 10th and Leo planets). Chiron, which ticks a lot like Saturn, is quite elevated in the chart, and has, at least, just as many aspects to other planets (many personals) as Saturn, which caused a lot of wounding, suffering and affliction. Perhaps by giving himself a new persona, he tried to heal a part of himself and his wounds. In charts with the likes of Chiron-Mars and Chi-Ura (though this is a bit generational) aspects, I have noticed a lot of pain, deep wounding and suffering (at times also self-inflicted) involved and, with Mars involved, also on a physical level. This was also the case here. Note also that Mars, lord of his 6th, is poorly placed in his chart in the 12th and in Taurus. It's amazing how self-explanatory this Mars in Tau (sign of physical beauty and of Ven) in a square to Venus and as lord of his 6th house of sickness is. He ruined his health due to his crazy sense of 'beautifying himself'. This also caused him a lot of pain and suffering and physical wounding (Mars square Chiron) plus alienation from reality (Mars in 12th).

Aquarius on the 10th explains a phenomenal and extraordinary career with its lord, an angular Saturn (in its own term), sextiling the MC and aspecting the planets (Ven, Mer), which, in turn, aspected the MC also. With most of the aspects being squares and oppositions, tough-task master, Saturn, ruling the MC, as well as Chiron conjuncting it; the career involved a lot of struggle and also sacrifice (Sat), such as of his childhood, on his part. Whilst Gemini on the Asc made this man highly versatile and multi-talented, Leo and the 5th-house planets a showman out of him; and, both together, an entertainer, his Moon in the 10th made his career see many highs and lows. Moon (family) in the 10th (career) can also show family supporting/pushing/involved in the native's career, which was the case here. Further, with Moon ruling his 2nd house, we also see a man here, who really used his talents (2nd house) to make his career (Moon in 10th); and, in turn, to earn his dough (lord of 2nd in 10th).

It is a very interesting chart and one can go on and on, but this should do as far as the radix chart goes. Extremely sad as his passing away is; it would be interesting still to study his current transits and progs. Saturn, as lord of his radix 8th house, would explain his lonely death, which involved a lot of suffering. His lord of 8th is also transiting his 4th (end of matter) currently. With tr-Jup conjunct his MC, he was all set for his major come back professionally and publicly, which did happen, but in a rather sad way.

AQ7

Awakened_Pisces

06-27-2009, 04:34 AM

**Sniff.....Sniff** Beautiful, yet tragic. An excellent life lived and alot of experiences for his soul. I imagine he'll have a brilliant reincarnation

katydid

06-27-2009, 04:53 AM

"The prominent, angular and aspectful Saturn in his chart made him a person with a lot of self-complex and self-doubt. His sense of personal security (Moon) was gullible (Moon in Pisces) and seemed constantly threatened (Sat square Moon), always making very concerned as to how he came across to others (Sat on Dsc and opp his Asc; Leo planets) and his public image (Moon in 10th and Leo planets)"
By AQ7

That Saturn on the 7th is one of the main things that makes this particular chart seem right for him. Like Nexus predicted, he would have Saturn angular somewhere.
This Saturn worked against his ability to have fulfilling relationships, as you pointed out.
The saturn ruled the 8th, and his only adult relationships were his 'employees.'

Also, Saturn conjunct desc, open enemies, the ruler of the 8th, brought a tremendous amount of litigation, where he was both plaintiff and defendant. He had ongoing multi million dollar lawsuits which dragged on for years at a time.

Nexus7

06-27-2009, 07:24 AM

I thought the Gemini Asc was a bit pat to begin with, but the Saturn thing would create a possible fear of ageing, make the Peter-Pan side of Gemini more exaggerated.

Sun/Pluto and transformation - well, in a horrible way, he did. Transform himself. He practically became the monster in the 'thriller' he sang about whilst he was still young and good-looking.

Yes NNode rising in Libra (4 possible Ascendants I have seen mentioned for him now - Aries, Libra, Gemini, Scorpio?) could still explain another reason for his desire to willingly go under he knife: narcissism. Many people may experiment with wrinkle creams, botox, etc, but not all take it to the extremes that Jackson did - and could, because of his great fortune.

But an angular Saturn, if it squares his Moon could still go a long way to point at what might have made him emotionally damaged enough to altering his appearance, espcially wih Sun conjunct Pluto.

R4VEN

06-27-2009, 07:47 AM

But an angular Saturn, if it squares his Moon could still go a long way to point at what might have made him emotionally damaged enough to altering his appearance, espcially wih Sun conjunct Pluto[/B].
I agree with the statement above, Nexus7.
For me, I cannot see narcissism in his behaviour at all. True narcissistic behaviour craves attention, and it is as though he hated all the attention, and acted strangely, even inappropriately (eg. the baby over the balcony incident in Germany) when he had too much attention.

I still think that Body Dysmorhia describes his desire to change his appearance, since it seemed to come from extreme hatred of his appearance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder
We all remember how good-looking he was as a teenager, and we expected him to be knockout as a man. He obviously could not see this.

Oprah Winfrey interviewed him a few years ago - not on her normal set though - and reported later that he really hated his face, and thought he was ugly, which is why he covered it. He possibly would not have sought psychiatric help because he had the money to pay for changing his appearance, and also those closest to him may not have felt comfortable saying: Michael, you need help.

I have Sun conj Pluto on my natal chart, and I can be quite obsessive about improving whatever it is I feel needs improving.

lillyjgc

06-27-2009, 08:05 AM

Hi Nexus,
Regarding Michael Jackson, My feeling is he wanted to be *successful* ever since he was a kid. Only *white guys* seemed to be successful (ignoring the fact that his own family were successes in their own right, but he was rejecting them, especially his father who was apparently a hard taskmaster))..I think there was a striving for perfection there, that *could* come from virgo placements or a mercury asc, *possibly*, but I would have also accepted a placement of Sat.in H5-there is some dispute as to whether the children are actually *his* biologically.
We also know he suffered facial burns in a commercial accident for pepsi some years ago.Devastating for a performer.
The way he moves on stage definitely suggests a strong Scorpio influence although sun cj pluto could create the same influence...think of the names of songs/albums- *bad* *dangerous* etc.... plutonic ideas.

The apparent duality of his Nature *is* suggested by Gem. Asc. We know Mercury can wear many masks.But then so too can Scorpio asc. and if the ruler of the asc. is in conflicting aspect with the luminaries, a dual persona could be the result there too.
Had we just played *guess MJ's asc* I might have said Virgo as my first choice. The man was a hypochondriac and also germ phobic. Libra also in H1 might explain his choice of fabrics...soft velvets/silks...sensual fabrics, matched with leather or vinyl or contrasting textures and appearances.He was very *costume-oriented*, choosing white suits etc for his court cases.

His eleventh house of friends would have to have activity-he had friends in very high places.And friends who betrayed him badly, as well.
No matter how he *looked*, MJ was never satisfied..this does indicate debility of either H1 or H2 ruler.His addiction to some drugs may also have been part of his reason for undergoing surgeries-it gave him legitimate access.
I do hope we will eventually be given a chart we can be sure is the right one.
Cheers
Lillyjgc

starlink

06-27-2009, 09:15 AM

thought the Gemini Asc was a bit pat to begin with, but the Saturn thing would create a possible fear of ageing, make the Peter-Pan side of Gemini more exaggerated.

This Ascendant does give great agility and as we know he was an amazing dancer. It also rules his 5th house and the ruler in the performing Leo sign.
Placement in the 4th shows also that his acts began in a family group.

katydid

06-27-2009, 09:35 AM

This Ascendant does give great agility and as we know he was an amazing dancer. It also rules his 5th house and the ruler in the performing Leo sign.
Placement in the 4th shows also that his acts began in a family group.

I agree. The only other ascendant which could make sense is the Virgo asc.
BUT that would put his Pisces Moon in the 7th. That does not ring true for me.
Saturn in the 7th describes his relationships better than Moon in Pisces.

The Gemini Asc puts the Moon in Pisces at the top of the chart, which seems more fitting. HE WAS LITERALLY EMBRACED BY THE WHOLE WORLD. And" we are the world' fits this placement as well.

And the thing that really speaks to me with this ascendant, is his Mars being in the 12th. If anyone ever had a 12th house Mars, he did. :wink:

Nexus7

06-27-2009, 10:04 AM

The Moon at the top of the chart. Yes, he was loved by the whole world, but the square to Saturn was here to indicate the seeds of later vilification, too. I do think his fame was as much a curse as a blessing, too. He would not have had a huge sense of reality, with a Pisces Moon.

He just seems to have been too naive somehow, to have had a Scorpio rising: anything Scorpionic in his chart could have been covered quite nicely by the Sun conjunct Pluto, I should think.

He lived in a world of his own to some degree, and his hangers-on would have colluded with that. For that reason, both the Gemini rising opposed by Saturn and Libra conjunct NNode could both make a whole lot more sense of his life there. Possibly the reverse side of narcissism is always something like a diamorphic body image of some kind, but theend result is still an obession with appearance.

But a 20th House Moon does make more sense too.

Unfortunately, his data may well continue to remain at the 'dirty' status, and we will all just have to keep on guessing....

Shining Ray

06-27-2009, 11:46 AM

The Liz Green "Micheal Jackson" chart was brought to the seminar Dark of the Soul. I don't where she got the data from, it was believed for a long time that Michel Jackson had a Gemini Asc, and Astrodatabank listed this birth time as correct. However, the site then listed it uncorrect and that his true birth time was not known.

Liz Green Chart with transits:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3866/mjnatalandtransits.th.gif (http://img229.imageshack.us/i/mjnatalandtransits.gif/)

The grandiosity, religious themes, (Michael was a Jehovah's witness) and travelling around the world, could be attributed to all the planets in his 9th house (Jupiter house). Michael dressed in black, and hid his face when he was out in public (Scorpio rising), and transformed before our eyes, he had a very public transformation and death (Pluto M.C).

However, his self-hate was evident, and the planet Pluto is focused on his need to transform, change and eliminate. Michael managed fine in the public arena, on stage, but in his personal life there was deep sadness and turmoil, and he found it extremely difficult to shake it off. Psychologically he was like a young boy at times, he was unable to cope mentally in the grown up world.

Michael lacked common sense at times and he made some very, very bad decisions, and he was caught in legal troubles and battled in court many times (Mars in 7th). Michael felt publicly humiliated throughout these trials (his reputation was destroyed Pluto on M.C) and in a Moon in Pisces way he would turn up to court looking ill and dressed in his pyjamas. Michael is deeply rooted to the past and he needed to escape the world, and retreat back to his Never Land home in privacy (Moon in Pisces 4th).

The self-hate (Sun-Pluto) and the conjunction of these planets in Virgo a Mercury ruled sign, shows us how this reflected his psychological state of mind. The sign of Virgo is self-critical and combined with Sun-Pluto it drove him to self-destruction. The Sun-Pluto aspect reflects what his father himself struggled with, his dad was an obsessive unrelenting man, and he wanted his children to achieve fame at all costs. The darkness in his father was very much a part of Michael too, and he had a tough reconciling this part of his nature.

Michael hated his father, but his dad had a powerful effect over his life, and he found it difficult shaking off the ugly taunts, and his fathers "critical nature" would invade his own psyche (Sun -Pluto in Virgo) . Like father like son in many respects, and not necessarily physically but psychologically Michael still beat himself up long after his father didn't have control over his life. It was evident Michael had a boy/man conflict, and I am not sure how he reconciled this part of his nature in his later years.

The man in Michael Jackson needed to take control of his own life, and part of the "hero's" journey was battling against, his past against his history, and psychological roots (Sun-Pluto opposed Moon in 4th). The demons of his past would haunt him for many years to come. Michael was a gifted child (South Node in 5th) and on some levels his father took advantage of this - Michael longed for super stardom himself, and he thrived under admiration and attention, and he believed he was "indestructible" (Scorpio rising Sun-Pluto). The amassing of his fortune did lead to power trips, and as a high profile star he could basically get what he wanted. The surgeries and physical transformation was what he wanted, and this was his way of physically shedding the past. However, the emotional, and mental trauma were never addressed, and I don't know if he ever had full time counseling.

The Moon in sensitive Pisces is squared by Saturn in Sagittarius, which reflects the harsh judgement, and critical upbringing his father subjected him to, along with the strict regimes. The parental expectations placed upon him left no room for his sensitive Moon in Pisces to be left alone in solitude with his imagination, sensitivity, and dreams. Unfortunately, this left Michael with deep feelings of inadequacy, which brought much unhappiness and emotional inhibition. Moon-Saturn denoted hardship in childhood, and he would crave and desperately try to re-create in his lost childhood (Moon in Pisces 4th) in his adult years. Michael had a fascination with fairy tales, his favourite being Peter Pan. The configuration can also denote ill health, and sometimes becoming a burden on others, or likewise. However, the Pisces Moon can become the victim, and a lot of his health troubles came from his psychological obsessions, and looking at his prescription medicines he was addicted to drugs.

Looking at his Nodes in this chart South Nodes in Aries 5th North Node Libra 11th.

Kevin Burke's The Complete Node book below;

The trap of the south node in Aries in the 5th house is to become too self-obsessed and too focused on individual expression; at this point the creative process becomes more about self gratification and less about self expression. With your North Node in Libra in the 11th house, you must learn how to bring your creative energy into your relationships with others, and discover the joy and importance of experiencing a shared creative experience as opposed a solitary one. In the process learning how to receive love and support from others.

Michael Jackson's music and amazing creativity stills lives on. But we have lost one of the greatest performers the world has ever known.

Prisma

06-28-2009, 12:24 PM

Just for Curiosity:
Looked for Asteroids names with the names of 2 of the keyplayers in this developing, tragic story, and the word "poisson".

--Natal Chart position- 11:53pm Gary, In (US)
#e 5050 Doctorwatson Leo 7°37’11" -3rd house
#d 1528 Conrada Leo6°22’56" -3rd house
#g 24334 Conard Libra 26°32’46"- 5th House
#c 941 Murray Cancer 28° 0’25"-2nd House
#f 1203 Nanna Libra19° 2’ 0"-5th House
#g 19428 Gracehsu Scorpio 0°43’55" -5th House
#f 9341 Gracekelly Sagittarius 15°41’25"-6th house
#h 12874 Poisson Scorpio 7°14’40"-6th house

--Death- 12:15pm Los Angeles, California (US)
#c 5050 Doctorwatson Pisces25°24’36" -6th house
#c 1528 Conrada Pisces27°59’40" -7th house
#g 24334 Conard Leo 15° 5’ 7" -11th house
#b 941 Murray Gemini 20°50’39"- 9th house
#d 1203 Nanna Aquarius 26°59’49"-5th house
#f 19428 Gracehsu Taurus 15°45’56"- 8th house
#f 9341 Gracekelly Cancer 8°49’13" -10th house

I am very new at astrology, but find the subject very interesting. please coment: What do you think of this observations? What could be told from this in the investigation of MJ death?

Prisma

06-28-2009, 12:29 PM

DiDi

06-28-2009, 12:52 PM

Nexus7

06-28-2009, 03:08 PM

I have heard rumours recently that Jackson had a personal astrologer and neither the Scorpio nor the Gemini birthtime were used, so however strong the arguments may be for either, we are stymied.

One thing that seems to be emerging more and more is that his drugs, either in the medicinal sense the addictive, seem to have been in large part instrumental in his demise - that, and that he really, could not, stop dancing: apparently, because of what happens to the muscles where not used. Another Neptunian theme, anyway.

So maybe, he either had his Pisces Moon in the 8th, or Cancer. The first would give him a Sagittarius rising, with that Saturn on the ascendant, the second, Leo - he lived to perform, after all.

I still wonder whether or not that Scorpio Ascendant was cooked up by someone who did a little recification at some point....

Prisma

06-29-2009, 12:21 AM

I have been following the declarations of Grace Rwaramba, the nanny of the kids of Michael Jackson, and the questions raised about Dr. Conrad Murray. The themes/roles of the mother and the father in the life of the King of Pop, kept repeating at the end of his life. Seems to me that, maybe, as in his childhood, in the final months, Michael's life was again between the "mother" who tried to save him, but did not had the resources or power to do so, and the man-father figure who, even with the best intention at heart, finally hurt/kill him.
"Those who fail to learn from (their) history are condemned to repeat it."

I hope he can find peace...

katydid

06-29-2009, 03:52 AM

katydid. . what did you mean when you said this? "And it puts his Mars in the 12th, which works for his 'a-sexual' energy"
what is a-sexual? i have a friend with this placement and wonder about 12th house placements like mars and saturn in them.
thanks

Mars in 12th, the apex of a tsquare, between mercury/venus/uranus in Leo, and Chiron in Aquarius. So not ALL mars in the 12th would be a-sexual, just perhaps ones with heavy afflictions like this.

[ a-sexual means 'not sexual' energy. In other words, people who do not really have sexual partners. ]
For years, people have described him as kind of that way. We know he did not have girlfriends. Even his kids with his WIFE, Debbie Rowe, were test tube babies. And there are no credible men who have come forward to say they were his boyfriends. The closest things he had to relationships were with young boys. But many people say it was never sexual. It was just a weird kind of love, but not physical.

So I would LIKE to think that was what was going on with him too. just a weird deep , kind of innapropriate LOVE for young boys, but nothing truly sexual. :bandit:

R4VEN

06-29-2009, 04:08 AM

Mars in 12th, the apex of a tsquare, between mercury/venus/uranus in Leo, and Chiron in Aquarius. So not ALL mars in the 12th would be a-sexual, just perhaps ones with heavy afflictions like this.

So I would LIKE to think that was what was going on with him too. just a weird deep , kind of innapropriate LOVE for young boys, but nothing truly sexual. :bandit:
I agree with your assessment of his sexual `proclivities' - or absence of them. I can't believe he was in any way a paedophile (and I'm not even a fan or anything). He truly was Peter Pan, and just had not fully grown up. Lisa Marie Presley claimed they had a full sex life, but I find that a bit hard to believe.

One of my sons has Mars in Libra in the 12th, and he goes for long stretches of time without sexual partners. He can also look quite androgenous at times, although he'd hate me forever if he knew I'd said that. He has a very slim body like MJ's was. For a man of 50, Jackson's body was still that of an adolescent

katydid

06-29-2009, 04:37 AM

I agree with your assessment of his sexual `proclivities' - or absence of them. I can't believe he was in any way a paedophile (and I'm not even a fan or anything). He truly was Peter Pan, and just had not fully grown up. Lisa Marie Presley claimed they had a full sex life, but I find that a bit hard to believe.

One of my sons has Mars in Libra in the 12th, and he goes for long stretches of time without sexual partners. He can also look quite androgenous at times, although he'd hate me forever if he knew I'd said that. He has a very slim body like MJ's was. For a man of 50, Jackson's body was still that of an adolescent

That is the main reason that I cannot relate to his Scorpio rising chart. Mars would be in Taurus in the 7th. EVERY guy I have ever met with Mars in Taurus in the 7th was pretty physically sexy and pretty sexual. I am sure someone will post here to say they have seen otherwise, but in my experience, mars in taurus in the 7th is pretty sexually active. :love:
And Scorpio rising does NOT describe his little boy body and Peter Pan energy.
Sure, I KNOW how he danced while holding his crotch, and sang songs titled
im BAD etc, BUT he only got away with it because it was juxtaposed with his
non-threatening, asexual energy. Believe me, if he had Scorpio rising, he would have been found guilty. :cool:

divine g

06-29-2009, 05:03 AM

I got a real a-sexual vibe from MJ too. I would just chalk it up to mercury's rulership of virgo, and mercury being a-sexual. I saw an interview where the reporter stayed with him for 6 months, with boys in the house, and he really loved children because of their innocence. He says he saw the face of God in children. And with his sensitive, spiritual, poetic Pisces moon, it could be that he really wasnt interested in sex. With all the energy he put into his career, and music, it seems he channeled his sexual energy into his performance. He also had a strict religious upbringing where his mother made him think sex was bad. That may have stayed with him psychologically for life.

Something about him, the way he spoke and expressed himself. He even repeatedly told Barbara Walters that being called "wacko jacko" hurt his heart. He felt people forgot that he had a heart. I'm not surprised it just stopped beating. His last tour was called "This is it". He could feel it coming. I think he was too sensitive and spiritually advanced for this sick world, and left it early because of a broken heart. The child abuse allegations came from sick-minded people in a society that is obsessed with sex, so no one could understand how he can sleep in a bed with someone and not have sex with them.

Anyway, astrotheme.com has his chart, and with his Leo in the 10th, it looks like they may have the right time. I didnt even have to look at his chart to know that Leo would be prominent, because he owned that stage, owned the spotlight, put his heart and soul into performing, created so many songs and dances, I'm surprised he wasnt a Leo sun. But that Uranus in Leo explains it all. I'm sure all the crazy fans, and nervous energy gave him an irregular heartbeat, and he probably needed some kind of drug to keep him calm for a long time.

What stands out in his chart the most to me, the Pisces Moon, shows an extremely sensitive and compassionate soul, and the Virgo Sun made him work hard at his craft. Together, they worked to make his life centered around serving us through entertainment. His Venus in Leo was just perfect for a singer/dancer/performer, and Uranus in Leo shows he was here to entertain the masses.

His reclusiveness and descent into addictions in his later life was his Pisces Moon at work again. Also, that Neptune influence made his logic about sleeping with boys in his bed so irrational to us, because feelings dont conform to logic. I think his death was a combination of his Neptune drug use for his wounded emotions dissolving his health, and uranus in leo acting suddenly on his heart, which was overworked preparing for his last tour, bruised and lonely from so many years of abuse by the media. The moon transiting Uranus Leo at the time of his death, shows a sudden event at his home, dealing with his heart. He really shocked the world in life and death. And his public image as a very eccentric star fits when I saw his chart as having Leo in the 10th.

I have to look more into it, but i think he was a very Chiron-like figure to the world.
ps Katydid do you think Libra Rising is more fitting for him? Especially with his slightly feminine look? Dont mean to put it that way, but you have to admit, he did have pretty hair:p

R4VEN

06-29-2009, 05:48 AM

Something about him, the way he spoke and expressed himself. He even repeatedly told Barbara Walters that being called "wacko jacko" hurt his heart. He felt people forgot that he had a heart. I'm not surprised it just stopped beating. His last tour was called "This is it". He could feel it coming. I think he was too sensitive and spiritually advanced for this sick world, and left it early because of a broken heart. The child abuse allegations came from sick-minded people in a society that is obsessed with sex, so no one could understand how he can sleep in a bed with someone and not have sex with them.

I have to look more into it, but i think he was a very Chiron-like figure to the world.

I was quite moved by what you wrote, divine g.
I tend to agree that he was a wounded soul who wore his wounds for the public to see, in much the same way that Princess Diana did, despite her trying to appear OK.

I was interested in your comment about him being a `Chiron-like figure to the world.' I don't know where my head has been - Michael was going through his Chiron return, and he is far from the first person to have left the earth plane during this transit, and with tr Chiron having turned retrograde, too.

His natal Chiron-Venus opposition seems to describe what you have described about him, divine g:
From Barbara Hand Clow's book on Chiron in relation to having:
firstly, Chiron square Mars:
"..a tendency to avoid transmutation. The natives are very aware of the power of Chiron because of the square, and they develop all kinds of strategies for avoiding Uranus..." usually until they experience their Uranus opposition, which Jackson seemed to express like he was rebelling against harsh parental control.
and secondly, Chiron opposition Venus:
"....he or she is very nervous........alluring, often seems to be from another planet, and often has unusual intuitive understanding of the esoteric because of the ancient occult connection with Venus."

For those in UK & Australia, Lenny Henry was born the same day as Jackson, and a different person (from MJ) you could not find!! He has Leo Asc, and boy, does it ever show!!

Courtney Love

06-29-2009, 06:30 AM

I was quite moved by what you wrote, divine g.
For those in UK & Australia, Lenny Henry was born the same day as Jackson, and a different person (from MJ) you could not find!! He has Leo Asc, and boy, does it ever show!!

Lenny Henry.. who's married to Dawn French? that's really interesting...

Divine G, your post was lovely...

aquarius7000

06-29-2009, 06:40 AM

I too think that, with his Piscean Moon so elevated in his chart (10th house of the public world/image), he was overly emotional and just took everything coming from the outside world right to the heart. His Piscean Moon also sextilied his Mars in the 12th house (naturally of Pisces) plus squared his Asc (another public point). A Pisces Moon is very sensitive with like a very thin, yet permeable sheath between the inner and the outer world, and can soak up emotions as naturally as breathing air. In fact, in his case, he did not even have to that, as the media just drilled them into him almost gruesomely by writing about the things they so often did. And, the things had to do with just what he himself felt most connected to (children) and had missed himself (having a proper childhood). As I said in my previous post, here was a man that used to donate millions for children suffering around the world, and that is just where the media got him. This surely broke him and he never really recovered from those accusations. I recall having heard in one of those interviews where he gently insisted that even if he had had a child sleeping in his bed, he would never ever phyiscally abuse it. He'd rather slit his wrist up first than do something like that. Btw, he also had Neptune in a nice sextile to his Sun, which added on to that sensitivity. I also often feel that people whose soul has suffered so much already die a spiritual death much earlier, and the physical ailments that come later are like a tangible excuse/reason for the real world to pin the cause of death onto. As also mentioned earlier, with such an angular and elevated (hence strong) Chiron, which made quite a few aspects in his chart, as did also Saturn, he had a lot of suffering and healing to do himself, which also made him undergo a lot of soul transformation- like fulfilling of some very difficult karma (Pluto so close to the Sun).

Another thing, a Piscean Moon can fantasise (by living in a world of illusion and spirituality, far away from reality) about anything. Thigs 'happen' more in their heart and soul, away from the phyiscal self and the real world, and this is fulfilling for them in its own way. This is something that comes to my mind when I look at his exalted and elevated (thus strong) Piscean Moon's connection to that debilated Mars (in Taurus) in the 12th house of spirituality and compassion, but also of illusion, pain and melancholy, and confinement, which explains a lot as to his sparse need for seeking sexual fulfilment.

AQ7

R4VEN

06-29-2009, 06:41 AM

Lenny Henry.. who's married to Dawn French? that's really interesting...

Divine G, your post was lovely...
Yes, Courtney Love, Lenny Henry who's married to Dawn French.
About the only thing he has in common with MJ is being born black!!!! He's big, cuddly, funny, and very sexy!!!!!

Shining Ray

06-29-2009, 08:12 AM

katydid

06-29-2009, 08:34 AM

I am quite attached to Scorpio rising, (:bandit: MJ) and look at these eyes I have seen this Scorpio look before. Michael's ruling planets are Mars and Pluto, and don't forget he did suffer 2nd degree burns during the making of a Pepsi ad. He needed more surgery. The path of his life has been birth, death and now re-birth. The most sensitive Moon in my eyes would not be a 10th house Pisces Moon, but a more watery Moon in the 4th, he has a fairground in his house and turns his home into a childhood fantasy. His career was destroyed at one point and reputation was severely damaged (Pluto on M.C). However, since he has died we have seen a re-birth of his career and his album is at Number 1. The phoenix rising from the flames.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41263000/jpg/_41263408_jackson238.jpg

The debate could on about his astrolgoy chart, we could all be wrong lol.

I know . It is frustrating and useless because we may NEVER know for sure. :bandit:

My ONLY problem with the Scorpio rising chart is that it puts Mars in Taurus in the 7th. This poor guy NEVER had a Mars/Taurus/7th house experience imo. :unsure:
I agree that he has the Scorpio eyes, but he has Sun conjunct Pluto. That can do it right there.
And he just does not seem to have a Scorpio rising build imo either.

But as you said, we may never know so it is moot point perhaps. :ninja:

aquarius7000

06-29-2009, 09:41 AM

I am quite attached to Scorpio rising,..
The Pluto-Sun conjunction should not be forgotten. That would give a lot of phoenix-rising-from-the-flames effect.

The 11:53 PM TOB, IMO, puts many planets in places (Saturn on the Dsc, Jup-Nep-N-node in the 5th, Sun-Pluto conjunction in the 4th), where they speak of Michael's life very closely and aptly; as others have also noted.

Need to get back to work now. The coffee break is over.:D

AQ7

Shining Ray

06-29-2009, 10:04 AM

Hi Katy,

The chart could easily be wrong, as I have no clue where Liz Greene got the data from. I had a look through the book it was printed in but she didn't mention where the data was obtained from. I hate to argue an ascendant because you look stupid if it comes back different, and you will have to come back to this thread and sneakily delete your posts, unless someone has quoted you, then you can't take it back :biggrin:.

The Mars placement works through relationship and could indicate legal partnerships, others fighting on your behalf, feeling attacked or expecting to be attacked by others (http://www.tmz.com/2009/03/12/neverland-was-filled-with-sculpted-boys/). Mars in Taurus in the 7th house is square Uranus in Leo 9th, and this is something to consider for non- sexual commitment in relationship (Venus/Uranus in 9th as well), and the unusual legal arrangement he had with the mother of his children which was non-traditional. He took over mothers role and solely took care of the kids with the help of nanny. Jackson married Lisa Marie but divorced shortly after, he has married twice and been divorced. According to Sue Tompkins Moon in 4th people view their home as refuge and the style of the home is described by the Moon sign and aspects. The Scorpio rising chart puts 8 planets above the horizon, and the 9th house becomes more prominent. Mercury in 9th a questioning mind on what is right or wrong. Venus in 9th could have relationships with people from other cultures and be drawn to to the arts or human relations. Pluto in 9th can have deep religious beliefs and he is interested in subjects involving pre-history.

Hopefully his real birth time can be revealed one day,

Shining Ray

06-29-2009, 10:30 AM

The Pluto-Sun conjunction should not be forgotten. That would give a lot of phoenix-rising-from-the-flames effect.

I agree (in pretty blue writing :biggrin:) that the Sun-Pluto conjunction can adequately explain the Phoenix rising from the flames, are you trying to ruin my case Aquarius lol. No more smart comments from you. I think the Pluto theme is so powerful in his chart that he needs Scorpio rising and Pluto on an angle what about his destroyed reputation (explain that one lol), his career was damaged (Pluto M.C).

The 11:53 PM TOB, IMO, puts many planets in places (Saturn on the Dsc, Jup-Nep-N-node in the 5th, Sun-Pluto conjunction in the 4th), where they speak of Michael's life very closely and aptly; as others have also noted.

Moon-Pluto describes his personal life being invaded, and he was paranoid. He was so much more public, even though he needs refuge and privacy. His life was all over the tabloids. I do like Jupiter-Neptune in 5th it fits, for performance, but in the Scorpio rising chart he has South Node in Aries 5th. Jupiter in 5th suggests a gambler, love of pleasure. Huge romantic adventures :unsure:. Hobbies , arts and generosity :smile: the perfect placement for the uncle or godparent to many children (yes I like that too :smile:) Lots of children and fun, I wil admit it works.

Neptune in 5th is highly artistic, escapes into drugs or other pleasures. They can enter the world of make believe, drama, dance, film, music, can feel sorry for children seeing them as victims in society, and Jacko did have a lot of sympathy for children. This has swayed me back a little to Gemini rising :biggrin:.

Although Jackson has friends in high places (Jupiter in 11th) charity groups, wants to better society.

I hope your happy Aqua, my soul is torn in two now. Get back to work, I have to run the bath for my partner like a good wife, because he has to travel out today, and the little one will finish nursery soon. Storms out the forum lol.

Case is still open regarding the debate over Asc, hopefully new evidence will surface and put this case to rest. :rightful:

tikana

06-29-2009, 10:50 AM

Shiny

i cannot agree with you more .. briliant input on MJ's natal chart...

it is interesting that you noticed neptune... well ... as far as i know he was trying to outdue himself like never satisfied

it is very common in artists

T

katydid

06-29-2009, 11:20 AM

tikana

06-29-2009, 12:22 PM

Yes, I agree with the hard parts about 'predicting' someones ascendant. Someone will have to be wrong if we ever find out the true data. LOL

There ARE some good points to be made about all of the possible charts. I still see the Gemini rising as the one that speaks to me the most, but I could be totally WRONG. I know that.

On GERALDO show on Fox Cable, they put out the theory that Jackson was actually 'murdered' by the people who were going to lose all their money if he defaulted on his concerts. They apparently had taken out a large insurance policy on him that would pay out if he missed the concerts due to unforeseeable problems. Supposedly they saw that he was missing all of his rehearsals, and he was unable to sing or dance, and they were so worried that they pulled the plug. I wonder...\\\

Hi

i have a thing against Geraldo.. he always blows things into a wrong direction.. i am not just ranting here... I used to know a few people who ended up as a story on Geraldo show. All information that was broadcasted was basically fabricated. if you remember geraldo was sort of a walking joke in afganistan a few years ago. So i dont really think that this theory has some validity... back to MJ... there is 1 week rehearsal footage tthat is being edited and possibly Sony will release it as special DVD.. he was practicing 5-6 hours every day according to some sources

as far as motif... it is bs because only 10 concerts were officially insured .. if anyone is throwing any kind of concert, the artist must get an insurace
http://www.filmins.com/concerts-productions.htm
here is basic info.. if the concert is cancelled, insurance company covers the loss BUT artisit usually does a makeup concert at the same venue but the cost o fthat insurance goes up. If the concert cancellation would hve been a problem, we woudl have seen a sudden refund. This is not the case. Promoters / insurance and etc did not disclose information on a refund. for a murder you need to have a valid motif. MJ was to gain only 85 million this is nothing compare to his 500 million debt.

Cheers
T

Shining Ray

06-29-2009, 01:31 PM

Wow, was he still in that much debt? I can't believe his finances could be so bad. His record sales are soaring now, and he crashed the Internet for a couple days. I was reading they were going to make his home a museum or shrine but no plans have been decided yet. Where did all the money go? Too much of the good life I guess.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tmz.com/media/2009/06/0627_mj_family_photo_launch_ex.jpg (http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_family_photos)

Charm

06-29-2009, 03:58 PM

Psychotik

06-29-2009, 09:40 PM

God this thread has made me so sad. Lol. (I'm a pisces moon too).

Though its not on this board either, people EVERYWHERE are talking of the way he was villified by the media. It all changes when they die doesnt it?

so, so sad.:sad:

katydid

06-29-2009, 09:50 PM

I think the perception of Michael was misunderstood. According to Quincy Jones, Michael was an extremely astute businessman. At one meeting, he knew the royalty (recording residuals) structure in every country in the world. So the Sun Pluto conjunction is very Scorpionic and can indicate that what we see on the surface is not what really is. So the public persona of the child like quality had some truth to it, but people neglect to see what genius he had financially and musically and in the music "business" aspect of it all. Michael's health was never the same after the 2nd abuse allegation and trial. These people crucified and denigrated him based on the allegations of a family with a history of fraud and deception (Pluto). Rest in peace and love Michael.

He may have been an astute businessman, but somehow he ended up 500 million dollars in debt. :alien: He was a genius, but then again he sometimes had no common sense.
I feel sorry for the way the media treated him, however he should share some of the blame. A grown up man cannot lock himself inside his bedroom for 3 days, all alone with a young boy, and not expect to be called on it.:annoyed:

Datransformer

06-29-2009, 10:43 PM

Who ever asked the question, ( I wonder if Michael Jackson has a Saturn some where?) you are correct, 100%.

Yes, Michael, has a strong [Saturn], and Sun-Uranus, which by the way, resulted in future cardic arrest.

Saturn/Neptune=Mercury, depression and wrong diagnosis.

Datransformer

tikana

06-29-2009, 11:11 PM

okay minor update

AEG live is opfficial tour promoter and the organizer..
official photos from AEG from staples center where MJ was practicing a few days before his death.

T

aquarius7000

06-29-2009, 11:28 PM

Hi The Shining Ray,

Since you agreed in pretty blue with me on the Sun-Pluto conj; I shall 'change colours' and revert to Plutonic black in this post:tongue:.
I think the Pluto theme is so powerful in his chart that he needs Scorpio rising and Pluto on an angle what about his destroyed reputation (explain that one lol), his career was damaged (Pluto M.C).Sure, I'll explain it, though a couple of factors I'd already mentioned in an earlier post of mine, but here goes (still sticking to the 11:53 PM TOB) :

-Chiron (wounding) conjunct the MC (public image/career) by ca. 2°
-angular Saturn (stability, also setbacks and disgrace) in an almost exact aspect (even if a sextile: easy flow of energies) to that Chiron and also aspecting the MC, which, in turn, is ruled by it (Sat, ie) through Aqua. If we were to consider the dual-ruler theory, Uranus opposes the MC plus Chiron, so that explains the "ups and downs" besides the Moon in the 10th
-Moon (fluctuations) in the 10th in a close square to that ruddy Saturn
-Lord of the unhappy 12th house (desolation, confinement, secret enemies) in a close opposition to both the MC and Chiron
-Briefly considering the other public point for the image bit besides MC, the Asc, look at the aspects it receives: Sat's opp and 10th-house Moon's square.
-Last and anything but the least is the (in)famous conjunction of Sun (glory and fame) and Pluto (destruction) in the house opposite to the MC.
Will that do?;)

Oh and re: Although Jackson has friends in high places (Jupiter in 11th) charity groups, wants to better societyJupiter in the 11th is a great placement, but how about letting it rule MJ's 11th house through compassionate Pisces. Besides Pisces, Nep conjuncting Jupiter (though common to those born in the months around his birth) would pour out a sea of compassion for charity purposes. Then we can also have Mr Jup back in the 5th for the kids, also explaining his trying to 'over extend' his childhood plus overdoing his childlike behaviour and all the rest that came with this placement, as already explained in my earlier posts.

I know that it is frustrating working with a debated TOB, but the one giving him his Jup in the 5th and his Gem Asc, etc somehow seems to fit fairly well, though I am reading posts discussing his chart based on other TOB(s) with a lot of interest, so shine on.

G'night
AQ7

Psychotik

06-30-2009, 12:50 AM

i wonder what his chart points toward in terms of the child scandals? did he do it, or didnt he?

divine g

06-30-2009, 01:14 AM

i wonder what his chart points toward in terms of the child scandals? did he do it, or didnt he? Um, Michael Jackson was found innocent on all counts by a jury of 12 of his peers in 2005. As a Virgo, with traditional Mercury as ruler, there were issues with a painful childhood, so he didnt want to grow up. He was a star at 6 years old for Christ's sake. He missed out on his childhood, and loved to play with kids. it's only sick minds who HAVE to believe he was having sex with them. Whatever happened to innocent til proven guilty? Now he's still guilty after being proven innocent in court because of public opinion right?

If you must know why people thought that, it was his Uranus in Leo which shows an "abnormal", unusual, eccentricity in terms of Leo's love of children. A Pisces moon is too sensitive a soul to be raping children, and someone so famous would not get away with it. Seriously. He was found innocent by 12 jury members who saw all the facts. Give the child abuse allegations a rest, please.

katydid

06-30-2009, 01:48 AM

Um, Michael Jackson was found innocent on all counts by a jury of 12 of his peers in 2005. As a Virgo, with traditional Mercury as ruler, there were issues with a painful childhood, so he didnt want to grow up. He was a star at 6 years old for Christ's sake. He missed out on his childhood, and loved to play with kids. it's only sick minds who HAVE to believe he was having sex with them. Whatever happened to innocent til proven guilty? Now he's still guilty after being proven innocent in court because of public opinion right?

If you must know why people thought that, it was his Uranus in Leo which shows an "abnormal", unusual, eccentricity in terms of Leo's love of children. A Pisces moon is too sensitive a soul to be raping children, and someone so famous would not get away with it. Seriously. He was found innocent by 12 jury members who saw all the facts. Give the child abuse allegations a rest, please.

Divine,
I am with you on the faCT that he was proven innocent. And I totally agree with you that he was most likely NOT raping any of these children. But as much as I adore his musical genius, I have to call him on a few things.

He crossed some lines and was very innapropriate in his relations with these young boys. He was emotionally grooming them and emotionally invasive with them because of the way he courted them. I am not sure if you are aware of some of the things he admittedly did with his favorite boys. He would essentially BUY their company, and treat them as if he were IN LOVE with them. He would not do sexual things per se, but he did do creepy things like lay next to them in bed, and stroke their hair, looking lovingly in their eyes, and kissing their hands. He would lock himself in his very private bedroom for days at a time with one little boy, and they would have cookies and milk, and watch tv and play video games and laugh and 'wrestle'. But he was a single man in his 30's, and there was something undeniably creepy about the whole thing imo. It is totally wonderful to LOVE children, but in that case you do nice things for them without expecting them to have private sleepovers with you. I KNOW he had no childhood, and his dad was a tyrant, but that does not make it okay for him to act out so strangely with so many young boys over the years. :wink::sad::crying:

I think it is unfair to attack the media as if there were NO reason to wonder about his behavior. Again, I do not think he did anything illegally sexual, but i do think he crossed some boundaries big time. :devil:

P.s. I have to admit that I was a victim of child sexual abuse, by a teenaged uncle, who was my after school babysitter. he 'loved' me too, and did nice fun things like take me for ice cream, and to the park, so I wince when I hear some of the excuses MJ used.

Psychotik

06-30-2009, 01:53 AM

Psychotik

06-30-2009, 01:56 AM

Divine,

P.s. I have to admit that I was a victim of child sexual abuse, by a teenaged uncle, who was my after school babysitter. he 'loved' me too, and did nice fun things like take me for ice cream, and to the park, so I wince when I hear some of the excuses MJ used.

actually so am i... its surprisingly common, therefore it would not surprise me if he DID by just looking at the stats, but despite whats happened to you - how could you know for sure??

Intuitively, I think he didnt.

katydid

07-02-2009, 08:39 AM

actually so am i... its surprisingly common, therefore it would not surprise me if he DID by just looking at the stats, but despite whats happened to you - how could you know for sure??

Intuitively, I think he didnt.

That was my point. I do not think that MJ actually did anything of a illegal sexual nature to the kids, but he did cross the line in terms of creepy and
innapropriate behavior imo.

Shining Ray

07-02-2009, 12:02 PM

Something weird happened with the quoting :lol:.

Hi The Shining Ray,

Since you agreed in pretty blue with me on the Sun-Pluto conj; I shall 'change colours' and revert to Plutonic black in this post:tongue:.

Sure, I'll explain it, though a couple of factors I'd already mentioned in an earlier post of mine, but here goes (still sticking to the 11:53 PM TOB) :

-Chiron (wounding) conjunct the MC (public image/career) by ca. 2°

-angular Saturn (stability, also setbacks and disgrace) in an almost exact aspect (even if a sextile: easy flow of energies) to that Chiron and also aspecting the MC, which, in turn, is ruled by it (Sat, ie) through Aqua. If we were to consider the dual-ruler theory, Uranus opposes the MC plus Chiron, so that explains the "ups and downs" besides the Moon in the 10th

-Moon (fluctuations) in the 10th in a close square to that ruddy Saturn

-Lord of the unhappy 12th house (desolation, confinement, secret enemies) in a close opposition to both the MC and Chiron

-Briefly considering the other public point for the image bit besides MC, the Asc, look at the aspects it receives: Sat's opp and 10th-house Moon's square.

-Last and anything but the least is the (in)famous conjunction of Sun (glory and fame) and Pluto (destruction) in the house opposite to the MC.
Will that do?;)

Chiron can be more of a wounded figure publicly, which it can be argued he was. I agree Saturn angular can be disgraced, humiliated, spat on, kicked, beaten black and blue (I have that :crying:) that's the reason for the dramatics :biggrin:. Usually it's Saturn in 10th that is most afraid of "public opinion" and of being humiliated. Angular Saturn would still be a keynote in his chart if angular.

Oh and re: Jupiter in the 11th is a great placement, but how about letting it rule MJ's 11th house through compassionate Pisces. Besides Pisces, Nep conjuncting Jupiter (though common to those born in the months around his birth) would pour out a sea of compassion for charity purposes. Then we can also have Mr Jup back in the 5th for the kids, also explaining his trying to 'over extend' his childhood plus overdoing his childlike behaviour and all the rest that came with this placement, as already explained in my earlier posts.

If you want :smile:, this is purely parlour game observations because of no data lol. I do prefer Jupiter in 5th it does fit better. The 5th house planets do sway me on the Gemini rising chart. The Moon in Pisces 4th, and Mars in 7th, Pluto on M.C sway me on the Scorpio rising chart.

I know that it is frustrating working with a debated TOB, but the one giving him his Jup in the 5th and his Gem Asc, etc somehow seems to fit fairly well, though I am reading posts discussing his chart based on other TOB(s) with a lot of interest, so shine on.

G'night
AQ7

I am suffering sleepless nights over this astrological conundrum :biggrin:. Only joking I am the 5 minute astrologer you all hate. I sweep in with my observations grounded or not :whistling:. It's been an enjoyable debate, astrology can be fun while we work it out, and we all know we may never get a concrete answer. If your in the year 7000 maybe you are advanced enough to seek out his real birth time, and why didn't you tell us what was going to happen. You keep shining too my futuristic friend :wink:.

MkM84

07-02-2009, 12:39 PM

...I've been wondering if we could look at his progressed chart and see what we can find?

It would be interesting to see where everything was at his time of death. We may discover some things...:alien:

tikana

07-02-2009, 01:06 PM

i wonder what his chart points toward in terms of the child scandals? did he do it, or didnt he?

Psyhotik

i dont think there is a way to answer if he actually did it or not...

1. he was found innocent
2. DA never proved anything...
3. there were so many kids at the neverland staying over, why no one other than 2 kids complained. 1 kid had to retreive his story cause his dad made him do it. the kid with cancer did describe private parts of MJ BUT failed to repeat the same story he told to police during questioning.

I must say though... some things MJ said were kind of shocking for instance that it was okay to sleep with little boys in the same bed.

I would question if the guy was actually asexual. there is no mention of him having a gf at any stage.

strange life without MJ...

T

yashkaran

07-02-2009, 02:20 PM

we have also analysed the horoscope of this artistic genius according to vedic astrology. we have taken his time of birth as 7 54 am.
In Michael Jackson's horoscope 4th lord & 7th lord Jupiter is occupying 2nd house there by aspecting 10th house (Glory). Venus is the Lord of the sign occupied by Jupiter and is occupying 11th house. The Lord of house of public 4th house i.e Jupiter is also aspecting the lord of house of income (Moon) and 8th lord Mars (The Signification of Hidden talent, materialism and logic).
This analysis indicates that Jupiter is playing very significant role in his life as a result of this the major period of Jupiter which started at the age of 5 and continued till the age of 21 proved to be auspicious for Michael Jackson and brought lot of popularity success and wealth to him. The auspicious impact of 2nd lord, 9th lord, income lord and Jupiter brought unlimited wealth & prosperity in his life.

for details pls have a look on the analysis done by us. we shall be pleased to get a feedback from you

yashkaran sharma
www.futurepointindia.com (http://www.futurepointindia.com)

aquarius7000

07-03-2009, 07:27 PM

i wonder what his chart points toward in terms of the child scandals? did he do it, or didnt he? I guess we have to go by the famous 'innocent until proven guilty' tenet, which clearly did not happen in MJ's case (I mean the 'proven guilty' bit).

Sometimes, in our craving for something, we may go to extremes (Sun-Pluto), breaking the boundaries of all accepted norm and convention (which is why the word 'extremes' is used in the first place), but which we may not realise or, at least, not be able to get grips on (I am not saying that this can be used as an excuse, but just showing that element of human psychology involved). MJ craved for love, nurturing, belonging, and mourned not having had a normal childhood all along; all the things he seemed to have missed on in his 'growing' years. For whatever reason, he did not get (or try to get) this through a normal relationship with a partner. It is almost as if that North Node in the 5th (TOB 11:53 PM) compulsively pushed him on that path towards re-living his childhood through other children as well as compensate and make up for it all in this way. The Sun-Pluto and Pluto-Merc conjunctions always gave him tendencies towards obsession, and the 5th-house Jupiter-N Node conjunction was perhaps also of little help there, only making him 'overdo' things. 5th-house Neptune simply fogged it all up, not making him see things clearly/far away from reality, plus giving the whole thing a scandalous character. MJ's was a real case of that thin line between genius and eccentricity; magic and madness.

I am suffering sleepless nights over this astrological conundrum :biggrin:
Shinin' Ray, don't lose sleep over MJ. This time, curtains are down and the legend has left the stage forever, even if only physically (sad, but true :o). And, if you still want to, here (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4449&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=378589a52702c0caa5141524c5b91ca9) is the debate the 'skyscriptians' have had over the same TOB issue. This will keep you awake for some time, at least:D. As to why my futuristic 7000 didn't reveal what was going to happen, Ray; um, well, so I, myself, could Shine for a change (my Leo Asc took over ((talking about show biz, after all), promoting my Aqua Sun:tongue:)); and, I also have a wide Sun-Pluto trine plus a close Pluto-Moon square.;)

AQ7

Shining Ray

07-03-2009, 07:59 PM

Thanks for the link Aqua. I need some paracetamol before you direct me to these type of threads :joyful:. In the beginning of this thread I analyzed the Gemini chart, and at the time Astrodatabank listed MJs birth time as correct, and then some time later it was changed to unverified. After that I bought Liz Greens book, and her chapter on 'Sanity and Madness' listed a chart with Scorpio rising, but no information was given on where the birth time was obtained from, and the seminar took place in 2001, quite a few years ago.

I have let go of too much attachment to any chart, and I have tried to look at both charts fairly, we may never know his true chart.

chrunch

07-04-2009, 02:05 AM

What planterary aspects and influences caused problems with michael jackson and his father. Why couldn't they be resolved.

katydid

07-04-2009, 06:09 AM

MILK OF AMNESIA ?

I just heard a radio report on the drug Depravan, which is suspected of being the cause of his death. The 'nickname of the drug is MILK OF AMNESIA. IS THAT A PERFECT TERM FOR MOON IN PISCES OR WHAT?????????

Powerful Drug Discovered in Michael Jackson's Home
PopEater / Wire Services
posted: 5 HOURS 58 MINUTES AGOcomments: 491filed under: MUSIC NEWS, OBITS
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The ongoing investigation into Michael Jackson's sudden death has taken a new turn after the powerful sedative Diprivan was found in the singer's home.
Diprivan is an anesthetic widely used in operating rooms to induce unconsciousness. Also known as Propofol, it's given intravenously and is very unusual to have in a private home. TMZ had reported on the Propofol late last week.
Drugs.com lists Diprivan as used to start or maintain anesthesia during certain surgeries, tests, or procedures. It may also be used for other conditions as determined by your doctor. Diprivan is a general anesthetic.

Psychotik

07-04-2009, 12:27 PM

tikana

07-04-2009, 12:33 PM

Psychotik

milk of amnesia is propofol. IT IS NOT available in pharmacy... it is under a tight control in hostpitals but people have been known for smuggling from foreign countries it is anestetic drug.

Cheers
T

smilingsteph

07-04-2009, 05:25 PM

I think his lyrics are the windows into his sad world.

Man in the mirror- may relate to his deep desire to change his looks.

Dirty Diana- could indicate how "groupies" threw themselves at him and how he viewed them?
Billie Jean- wonder if a woman actually accused him of being a father?

Is it scary- very dark and yes it is scary!

Ohh the most interesting lyrics are:
Someone in the dark
I am not sure due to copyright laws I can post the lyrics but here is the website-
http://www.allmichaeljackson.com/lyrics/someoneinthedark.html

My favorite song was: You are not alone.

I think he felt very alone. No one could understand him, because all they did was judge him.

katydid

07-04-2009, 06:45 PM

i just watched his martin bashir interview. As someone with moon in psces I could actually relate to a lot of what he was saying: he's a complete fantasist and neptunian.

as for milk of amnesia i thought it was a common household drug?

Maybe i'm thinking of something else...

You are thinking of Milk of MAGNESIA, which is a common household cure for upset stomach. The slang term , Milk of Amnesia is based upon that name, because it looks the same way, a milky white chalky substance, but WAY more powerful and dangerous.

Yes, his Moon is Pisces was evident in that interview. Even his kind of delusional denial type behavior, when he tried to convince Bashir thaT he only had one or 2 plastic surgeries on his face. " No, I just grew up, this is just my face now." :whistling:That was unreal. :crying:

smilingsteph

07-04-2009, 07:12 PM

You are thinking of Milk of MAGNESIA, which is a common household cure for upset stomach. The slang term , Milk of Amnesia is based upon that name, because it looks the same way, a milky white chalky substance, but WAY more powerful and dangerous.

Yes, his Moon is Pisces was evident in that interview. Even his kind of delusional denial type behavior, when he tried to convince Bashir thaT he only had one or 2 plastic surgeries on his face. " No, I just grew up, this is just my face now." :whistling:That was unreal. :crying:

It is a paralytic used in surgeries to "put to sleep" a patient. It is so powerful and used to keep people sedated on ventilators so they cannot pull the vent out, and when there is severe brain injury it is used to keep the body and brain sedated to decrease further brain injury to decrease swelling.

It is spelled Diprivan
It has a very, very short half-life (within the clinical setting), a few minutes to be exact and instant action. It can paralyze one to the point where they cannot breathe. I am sure an easy drug to get for an MD, but I hope for the sake of the medical community that was not used.

katydid

07-04-2009, 07:16 PM

It is a paralytic used in surgeries to "put to sleep" a patient. It is so powerful and used to keep people sedated on ventilators so they cannot pull the vent out, and when there is severe brain injury it is used to keep the body and brain sedated to decrease further brain injury to decrease swelling.

It is spelled Diprivan
It has a very, very short half-life (within the clinical setting), a few minutes to be exact and instant action. It can paralyze one to the point where they cannot breathe. I am sure an easy drug to get for an MD, but I hope for the sake of the medical community that was not used.

It was reportedly found in MJ's bedroom. The LAPD have confirmed this. So it seems likely that it was one of the drugs responsible for his death. And since it is a drug that requires someone to assist in administering it, SOMEONE is in big trouble now. :sad:

Psychotik

07-05-2009, 02:17 AM

You are thinking of Milk of MAGNESIA, which is a common household cure for upset stomach. The slang term , Milk of Amnesia is based upon that name, because it looks the same way, a milky white chalky substance, but WAY more powerful and dangerous.

Yes, his Moon is Pisces was evident in that interview. Even his kind of delusional denial type behavior, when he tried to convince Bashir thaT he only had one or 2 plastic surgeries on his face. " No, I just grew up, this is just my face now." :whistling:That was unreal. :crying:

you're right. I grew up on milk magnesia so i was like - huh?

Martin B was a complete jerk. It was AWFUL watching that interview. Esp when he started talking about the kid thing and the fact it was "wonderful and the whole world should do it". He had such a different take on life.

[deleted swear - Moderator]

samsum78

07-05-2009, 07:02 AM

Hi,

Please do not blame moon in Pisces.This is one of the most creative positions of the moon. Yes there are other aspects and positions that may cause problems or Saturn square moon which afflicts the moon.
All his creative energy is with this moon in pisces which he was able to bring out in his music and shows. This affliction causes emotional problems
As a matter of fact I have the exact same position of the moon within 1 degree of MJ's moon in Pisces.

I in fact tried a vedic progression and vedic analysis of his chart and it indeed indicates an upcoming sudden transit of events which started June 18th 2009 based on Gemini rising tropical (vedic Sidereal - Taurus).

Its not sutprising that a lot of litigation was involved in his life with the dasha he ws experiencing.

If you look at his fifth house you have Jupiter and Neptune combined in the 5th house which explains his love and closeness to children. Plus Neptune in Scorpio (Tropical) has all that escapist activities with drugs, alcohol and sex. This is more related to dark energy of neptune. It also makes the person spiritual but in which way he or she develops it depends upon the individual. (Fast relief like drugs, alcohol or sex or better ways like meditation, yoga etc.. )

Saturn ruler of 9th squaring sun and moon also indicates emotional problem with his father.

Saturn in 7th with the positions of the 7th ruler show the short marriages he had.

aquarius7000

07-05-2009, 07:20 AM

Samsum,

Moon in Pisces can be very escapist, a wishful thinker, why even delusional on the downside. As you correctly noted, undoubtedly it can give creative abilities, just like planets in the 5th house or in Leo also can (of which he had quite a few). MJ also had Neptune sextiling his Sun, which added to the Piscean flavour. There are always two sides to a coin, remember? As regards Neptune-in-Scorpio's influence, well that constellation would have influenced millions (so, on its own, is absolutely impersonal), since Neptune is painfully slow, and with the outers, their aspects to personal planets plus their house placements are the Alpha and Omega when it comes to a natal chart. Also, btw, Saturn does not square his Sun.

Does anyone have the birth stats of MJ's father? A synastry of the two might be interesting to study.

AQ7

samsum78

07-05-2009, 07:46 AM

Hi Aquarius,

Yes Sun is not squaring Saturn, its off, 102 degrees to be precise, though not the best aspect. Thanks for bringing it up.

Neptune influences the generation but you see a lot of people in that generation were exposed to drugs. It was relatively new at that time.
Moon in pisces has some escapist activities but that's what I say its up to the individual to harness that energy. I would put it as healing or spiritual if well tuned or else if negatively used it will be escapist. Emotional health becomes the key to drive this activity.

tikana

07-05-2009, 07:59 AM

I have seen people with moon in pisces great lyricists and musicians
cause they can penetrate into this mystic idealism

katydid

07-05-2009, 08:14 AM

Please do not blame moon in Pisces.This is one of the most creative positions of the moon. Yes there are other aspects and positions that may cause problems or Saturn square moon which afflicts the moon.
All his creative energy is with this moon in pisces which he was able to bring out in his music and shows. This affliction causes emotional problems
As a matter of fact I have the exact same position of the moon within 1 degree of MJ's moon in Pisces.

I was not blaming his Moon in Pisces . I was just pointing out that the slang term for the drug, Milk Of Amnesia, is like a description of Moon in Pisces. [milk=moon,amnesia=pisces]
There are very few people who would ever consider using this potent, hospital sedative, used to place patients into a coma for surgery, as a 'sleeping aid.'
I think it does describe a Piscean Moon type of energy, in that he was okay with going so deeply under, in such loosely controlled conditions.
I agree that his Piscean Moon was a strong indicator of his huge creative talent, and also of his musical genius. But it also had a darkside to it which urged him to hide in the depths.

samsum78

07-05-2009, 09:01 AM

I agree to the dark side. The moon has an affliction. Plus moon in Pisces, ruler Jupiter and Neptune, conjunct in fifth house.Though creative, the individual can easily be susceptible to the dark side if not taken care of. He did not have a stable married relationship and he sought out different ways to amuse himself. The current event is a result of something that had gone too far in his life. He probably couldn't have stopped it.

katydid

07-05-2009, 07:12 PM

I have seen people with moon in pisces great lyricists and musicians
cause they can penetrate into this mystic idealism

I agree. He was a perfect example, the way his songs, like Black and White, or WE are the WORLD, were worldwide symbols of transcendent spiritual love.
I like the Gemini rising chart partly because I can really see his Moon in Pisces
being in the 10th, and squaring the ascendant/descendant, challenging his abilities to be just a regular guy with regular relationships, becsause he was in fact, an ambassador to the Universe in many ways. :bandit::whistling:
He was larger than life. But he was still a human so of course it was all too much for him, to be under such stress and pressure from the whole world like that. :annoyed:

Ayesha

07-05-2009, 08:03 PM

I'm a bit suspicious about his birth time. There are many things that fit and why not, but then there are some things that make me wonder. Mostly about his appearance. He has obviously had lots of plastic surgery, so it is hard to judge what his face would look like in reality. For some reason Gemini ascendant and plastic surgery don't go together in my head but maybe that's just me. He is also relatively short or average height (5'9) and Gemini's are supposed to be rather tall. Small things... but make you wonder.

wilsontc, a bit off-topic - sorry for that, but how about a square between Jupiter and Pluto?
I'm using the time given to me by a friend of Michael Jackson's mother, in 1994. They were recruiting me to do Michael's chart at the time, because they thought he was severely depressed and possibly suicidal. Transiting Saturn was on his Natal Moon in Pisces in his 1st House at the time. Then I saw the exact same birth time on Michael Jackson's chart on Michael Wolfstar's site: www.neptunecafe.com There was a note on the site that the birth time was submitted by a Vedic Astrologer who was Michael Jackson's astrologer in the 80's. The time we both were given: 7:33 pm, which gives a Pisces Ascendant at 4 degrees and the Moon in Pisces in the 1st House at 14 degrees. I've been using that chart for Michael Jackson since '94 and it works for me :o)

Maira

07-05-2009, 08:55 PM

Hi,
I also agree with the Gemini rising for Michael.

I looked up the stats for joe jackson, and they are "Joseph Walter Jackson, Born July 26, 1928 in the town of Fountain Hill, Arkansas", according to http://www.allaccessmagazine.com/vol6/issue12/joe_jackson.html

I raised a chart, and chose 3 am because I see some cancer, along with scorpio in him.

I'm an amateur astrologer, I don't think I'll ever be a good astrologer, but I do rely heavily on intuition. So here are my 2 cents on joe jackson's chart.

I think it's easy to see the scorpionic energy in his eyes, depicited by his moon in scorpio, conjunct bml and trine pluto. But I also think he has cancer energy, because of the way he is depicted as a patriarch, and "i did it for their own good" statements.

He has a fire grand trine, which involves saturn, venus and uranus, this would show talent and dedication to arts. Venus is loosely conjunct sun, in Leo. Why he didn't made it, I don't see from his chart.

I believe that we inherit patterns form our parents, which would explain "family karma". Michael inherited the venus in leo, his is conjunct uranus, his father's is trine, and taurean mars. Sadly, his is in his 12, which would suggest repressed *insert mars themes here*.

The fact that the marses are conjunct in synastry suggests at least ego power plays. The conjunction is opposed by joe's moon in scorpio.

Joe's Mercury is in Cancer, conjunct Pluto (again, scorpionic theme), and they are trine Michael's Moon. I mentioned earlier the cancer vibe i get from this man, and I really don't want to offend anyone, but I think Cancer's cruelty can be many times greater than Scorpio's. Because Scorpio knows that is bad or it's cruel, and they do it anyway, but Cancers seem to not know/care that they are hurting someone else. This is my experience and view of Cancers.

The pluto-merc conjunction is in Michael's second house, distructive talks about money/self-esteem?

I think Michael inherited Pisces from his mother, who is said to be a very religious person.

I attached joe jackson's chart.

To M., from Romania: we love you more:(

katydid

07-05-2009, 09:32 PM

I'm using the time given to me by a friend of Michael Jackson's mother, in 1994. They were recruiting me to do Michael's chart at the time, because they thought he was severely depressed and possibly suicidal. Transiting Saturn was on his Natal Moon in Pisces in his 1st House at the time. Then I saw the exact same birth time on Michael Jackson's chart on Michael Wolfstar's site: www.neptunecafe.com There was a note on the site that the birth time was submitted by a Vedic Astrologer who was Michael Jackson's astrologer in the 80's. The time we both were given: 7:33 pm, which gives a Pisces Ascendant at 4 degrees and the Moon in Pisces in the 1st House at 14 degrees. I've been using that chart for Michael Jackson since '94 and it works for me :o)

BINGO!
Finally, a chart that can pry me away from the Gemini rising one. This is the first one that seems to cover all of the bases. Pisces rising, with the Moon on the asc describes the appearance pretty well. Imo, he is rather androgynous and other wordly, like a Moon in Pisces might indicate. He is also slight, and seems rather frail, as Pisces sometimes appears. But his creative spirit is highlighted here, as the moon rules the 5th, with a trine there from Vesta. :whistling:

Saturn on the MC, and ruling the 11th makes a lot of sense, as the outer world became a burden to him. It limited his personal freedom, sat in sag, and curtailed his friendships. [sat ruling 11th]:rightful:

Also, this would make Neptune the ruler of the chart, which fits very well. The Neptune is conjunct Jupiter, ruler of the MC, which blends the 2 beautifully.

I am not sure what I think about the Sun/Pluto on the desc however. I would have expected to see MORE intense and sexual relationships with Pluto on the 7th cusp. Perhaps it being in Virgo , and opposing the Moon, hampered the erotic nature somehow. :bandit:

Also, a big factor is the origin of the birthdata. If in fact, this info came from
Michaels mother, in an effort to get help astrologically, then it is probably accurate.

divine g

07-05-2009, 10:10 PM

katydid

07-05-2009, 10:22 PM

Saturn ruling his 10th doesnt make sense. Uranus in 10th makes more sense, especially in light of his continuing reputation as someone who acted in bizarre ways in public. His reputation was "wacko Jacko", not serious, responsible, respected Mr.Jackson.
His chart here seems to make the most sense to me.
http://www.astrotheme.com/portraits/vJ3pEYk9DzLU.htm

The Leo in 10th, shows his reputation for great performances, the Venus there shows his career in music, and Uranus shows both his genius in the music world, and his erratic, eccentric behavior in public(surgeon mask over the face etc.)

Libra Rising makes sense in light of his obsession with beautifying his appearance. I mean the man wore makeup, had a perm, had nose jobs, you cant get more Venusian than that. With all due respect, he had a very feminine appearance, and I think he was ok with that.

And a word of caution, even if the birthtime were given by his mother, there is still no absolute guarantee it's right. My mom had 3 kids, and she couldnt tell you our exact birthtimes, and his mom had 9 kids, I believe. And this chart comes from a "friend" of his mom's, how does it gurantee accuracy?

In the absence of his actual birth certificate, we have to make educated guesses. But look at that Chiron in his 4th, doesnt that reflect his painful childhood? With Aquarius dominating it, doesn that show an eccentric(possibly crazy or genius) father? And his very creative, sensitive Pisces Moon in 5th shows the source of his inspirational music. I could be wrong, but this Chart hits a lot of different nails on the head. I suggest everybody take a look at it.

I am open to Libra rising. He does have a feminine appearance for sure.

And YES, the first chart I ever did for myself was done with the time my mother told me. She was SURE it was about 1 pm. Turns out that was what time she was put under with the 'happy gas.' I was not actually born until after sunset, but if I had not found my grandmas bible, with the birthtimes of all her grandchildren, i would still think I was a Libra with Sag moon instead of a Scorpio with Cap moon. :whistling:

I will have a look at the Libra rising chart then. And I do agree that saturn on the MC could be a weird fit, but he WAS very serious and well respected.
Remember, saturn is in Sag, and squaring all of the Gemini/Virgo stuff and oposing the pisces stuff. So he was well respected, even though odd, eccentric and offbeat.

Maira

07-05-2009, 10:29 PM

But in the 11:53 pm chart, it isn't Saturn ruling his MC, Uranus is. The 5th house and the 11th, Aries and Libra are intercepted.
And Chiron is conjunct MC, which in my opinion is very telling. We could all see his wounds. But he was the one wanting to heal us. I really hope he did.
I'll attach the gemini asc chart, sorry if that's been done before.

divine g

07-05-2009, 11:56 PM

This gemini rising chart looks like it could work hypothetically, but that 10th house doesnt do it for me. That looks like such a quiet, peaceful house, far from what his public life was.

His crazy public life, extravagant Leo lifestyle, just everything about him as a public figure points to Uranus running that 10th house. No other planet fits there. I just dont want anyone here wasting time looking at a totally incorrect chart. And Maira, no one could really see his wounds, that's why chiron in 4th works better. He kept that pretty hidden, as much as he could as a public figure. No one really knows how deep his pain went, and why he behaved the way he did..His pain was at the root of his 10th house behavior, but his pain wasnt as fully on display like his music, performances, and eccentric ways were..

Maira

07-06-2009, 02:04 AM

Chiron, the wounded centaurus, a bridge between Saturn and Uranus. Michael was having his Chiron return when he died. I am not trying to argue, it would be senseless, but i’m sticking with mc in aqua, conjunct chiron. Aquarius MC would still be ruled by Uranus. And Leo lifestyle would be ruled by a 4th (home) in leo.

I guess you never saw any of his interviews after that first one, with Oprah, in 1993, when he admitted “joe” used to beat him when he was a kid. He than later said that his father would use anything he could get his hands on, including one time his mother was yelling stop it joe, you’re going to kill him.
How about the wounds from the court cases, him telling the world the humiliation he suffered, being abused by the police? Betrayed by those he loved and/or saved (i’m talking about that little boy who was miraculously cured of cancer after spending time at Neverland, whose parents afterwards went on and sued him). Betrayed by the media he thought he could control… What about his love-hate relationship to the fans and to performing? To me, he is a very chironic figure. It breaks my heart.

Also, I liked very much what Geocosmic Valentine wrote on lindaland:

“One thing that I love about his chart is his Mercury Retrograde. Michael Jackson was very Mercurial, just like the mythological character Mercury. The God Mercury is often portrayed with wings on his feet and a hat similar to the fedora hats the Michael wore ever since he first performed the Moonwalk on the Motown 25 Celebration show. Michael's beaded socks remind me of the wings on Mercury's feet. So when he Moonwalks, he is the perfect image of Mercury Retrograde, Mercury walking backwards.

The night he first Moonwalked he was wearing an outfit that consisted of a silver sequined shirt, with a black sequined jacket over it. And as me danced and sang under the lights he looked like the chemical Mercury which is a dark silver in color. The way Mercury moves around when you put it on a flat surface, it rolls around and is very slippery, kind of like Michael Moonwalking, looking as if he is sliding backwards even as he moves forward.”

So, to me, he’s mercurial and chironic and piscean and plutonian. Libra would never go to such depths. Libra is shallow and mellow, and go with the flow. And curvy, asc's gain weight with age. I should know, I'm libra asc :)

divine g

07-06-2009, 03:39 AM

On 6-29 I wrote on this thread,
I have to look more into it, but i think he was a very Chiron-like figure to the worldSo I agree it was important in his chart but more likely from the fourth house of family and roots. We all know he was wounded by his father (4th house) way before he became famous(10th). As the psychological foundation of the whole chart, the 4th is just as important as the 10th, in fact they're on the same axis.

But Chiron, the Wise Teacher is NOT what he is most known for. We all know he was abused, but we will never know to what extent. The 10th house is reputation, and Michael Jackson is most known for his creative talent (Leo) and eccentricities(Uranus) than his healing/and or wounded qualities.

Obviously, there's only one chart that can be right, so it's a process of elimination of charts that look weak. Again, a Pisces Moon on the 10th is a very peaceful placement, and that is simply not Michael Jackson's reputation. It would also help if the astrological community can help each other come to a logical conclusion on what chart fits best, because it would be a shame to be wasting time studying the wrong chart. Astrology is very easy if you stick to the basic energies of the planets.

For the record, I've done charts without knowing the birth-time, but came close to it within minutes , by taking the basics, one planet at at a time, seeing how they fit in each house, until a picture that made sense appeared. It's like a combination lock. It takes more than one planetary placement to make it all click. As an experienced astrologer, that Gemini Rising chart looks way off, and I just dont want any other astrologers wasting time with that one.

(Mercury is in the 10th with Libra rising, so that Moonwalk, which he did on stage, was a public thing, he didnt go around moonwalking all day. And the Cancer starting the 10th house also shows his shyness and senstivity in the public eye, but able to transition into Leo's showmanship which he was best known for)

katydid

07-06-2009, 04:00 AM

Divine,
The biggest problem with the Libra rising chart is that his Mom says he was born at night.
That chart has him being born at around sunrise, and I do believe his mom would know the difference. I know moms are not always accurate time wise, but in general, like in day or night, they are usually correct.

And as to your comment, that as an experienced astrologer, you can tell the Gemini chart is WAY off, ...well... several very experienced astrologers might disagree.

I for one thing Moon in Pisces in the 10th is anything but 'peaceful.' Especially given a Sun/pluto conjunction in Virgo, a Saturn in Sag, and Gemini rising. The MOON IN PISCES IN THE 10TH WOULD BE TORTURED ARTIST.

divine g

07-06-2009, 04:43 AM

The "way off" comment was a bit extreme.. I saw a chart with all his planets packed on one side of the chart, maybe someone posted the wrong chart and took it down..I took a look at it again, and like I said in my 1st comment, it does look believeable, but only hypothetically.

In reality, it seems like a Moon in Pisces in 10th would never leave the house, that's what I mean by peaceful, only in a public sense..That's someone who is so scared of fame, its a small chance he would ever become famous..which is the exact opposite of MJ who's known around the world. Granted, he was painfully shy in public, but that can be explained with Cancer ruling the house in the Libra rising chart.

Let's look at what astrologyweekly.com says,

Moon in the Fifth House your feeling, instinctive nature will find expression through amusements, sport, recreations, love affairs, children and creative activities in the home. Your day-to-day response to circumstance is strongly conditioned by ego stimulation and your personal emotional identification with events. A feeling of well-being is often dependent on your current romantic attachment and the little daily pleasures that you consider important. Enjoying a flutter on the horses or stock market keeps life interesting, however, beware of impulsive gambling.

With the Moon in the Tenth House your feeling, instinctive nature will find expression through a strong emotional commitment to public and professional life. Your day-to-day response to circumstance is strongly conditioned by a practical, unemotional and common-sense approach to events. General well-being is dependent, largely, on material success and financial security

Can anyone say with a straight face that Michael Jackson had a "common-sense" approach to anything?

Ayesha

07-06-2009, 04:48 AM

tikana

07-06-2009, 04:52 AM

lillyjgc

07-06-2009, 05:03 AM

Tikana,
If you could provide us with a link or a reliable source that confirms that,I'd appreciate it. No other Astrology Forums are adopting this time either.As Tim earlier pointed out, this data has been determined as being unconfirmed.
Lillyjgc

katydid

07-06-2009, 05:28 AM

The "way off" comment was a bit extreme.. I saw a chart with all his planets packed on one side of the chart, maybe someone posted the wrong chart and took it down..I took a look at it again, and like I said in my 1st comment, it does look believeable, but only hypothetically.

In reality, it seems like a Moon in Pisces in 10th would never leave the house, that's what I mean by peaceful, only in a public sense..That's someone who is so scared of fame, its a small chance he would ever become famous..which is the exact opposite of MJ who's known around the world. Granted, he was painfully shy in public, but that can be explained with Cancer ruling the house in the Libra rising chart.

Let's look at what astrologyweekly.com says,

Can anyone say with a straight face that Michael Jackson had a "common-sense" approach to anything?

Well, seriously, you CANNOT use cookbook references to disprove something like this. For example, The moon in the 10th reference you quoted was NOT taking into account his Pisces on the cusp of the 10th.
SO, Yes, he did have a'practical, commonsense approach to events', BUT IN A PISCEAN MOON WAY. He did have a strong emotional commitment to his public and professional life, but it was Neptunian as well.
Remember, he was the biggest selling recording artist in history---thus
there may well have been a 10th house component here. And he did have a very 'common sense approach' to his eccentric nature---he loved amusement parks and kids, so he built one to live in, and invite all of the children to.
In MY opinion, the world has more of a MOON IN PISCES impression of him, than they do a Uranian one. He does not seem like an Aquarius energy, disconnected and aloof from the world at large. To me he seems like he is TOO emotionally connected , no boundaries, no filters between him and the world.
And as for 'never' leaving the house, that is correct. In fact, he went through many periods where he did HIDE from the world, and locked himself and his kids away.
As for never becoming famous because of moon in pisces in the 10th--WHAT?
Quite the opposite in my opinion. The Moon in the 10th IS FAME. The Moon being the public, the 10th being the career, and reputation and PISCES being the Universe. To me, moon in pisces in the 10th = THE AMBASSADOR OF THE UNIVERSE. :alien:

R4VEN

07-06-2009, 05:36 AM

In MY opinion, the world has more of a MOON IN PISCES impression of him, than they do a Uranian one. He does not seem like an Aquarius energy, disconnected and aloof from the world at large. To me he seems like he is TOO emotionally connected , no boundaries, no filters between him and the world.
..................................
The Moon in the 10th IS FAME. The Moon being the public, the 10th being the career, and reputation and PISCES being the Universe. To me, moon in pisces in the 10th = THE AMBASSADOR OF THE UNIVERSE. :alien:
Absolutely! We Are The World can be translated into "I Am The World", and if anyone in the world is hurt, then I am hurt also.

Also, Moon in the 10th gives a kind of fluctuating public persona, where he can be loved by all, and the next minute vilified. Moon in the 10th also describes ambitious parents. (and in my book, the 10th describes the father/Saturn, but I know there will be some who are offended by my saying that!!)

PS: katydid, could you clear your message box? Trying to PM You.

divine g

07-06-2009, 05:56 AM

Ok, I give up. I will leave at this. Michael Jackson was a superstar to the world. The biggest star is the Sun. Leo=performer,dancer. Venus=singing, music 10th=career, reputation. Uranus=eccentric, genius, "weird".

If you add all that up, ask a random person, to name an eccentric superstar who was a career performer,dancer,singer, actor who revolutionized the entertainment industy, and who alot of people thought was weird, there's only one name that will come up. Michael Jackson. The 10th house is the most obvious house to the world. It's one's CAREER. MICHAEL JACKSON WAS A PERFORMER. THAT IS RULED BY LEO.

10th HOUSE LEO=CAREER AS PERFORMER, ENTERTAINER, DANCER,SINGER,ACTOR
10TH HOUSE VENUS=FAMOUS SINGER
10TH HOUSE URANUS=FAMOUS ECCENTRIC
BASIC ASTROLOGY. If no one else can see that, I give up. Believe what you want.

divine g

07-06-2009, 06:16 AM

Im not the only one who sees this..here's Robert Phoenix's take at http://www.astrodispatch.com/2009/06/29/michael-jackson-the-little-prince-and-the-long-shadow-of-the-pisces-moon/

I’m okay with the Astrotheme chart as it has Cancer on Jackson’s mid-heaven, which makes his 10th house, Leo and also makes total sense to me. There, in the 10th house, we find Uranus, Venus and Pallas, all projecting out into the world. Venus in Leo sextiled Jackson’s ascendant. The love and adoration that he experienced on the world’s stage, moved in a graceful flow towards Michael’s projected self and then back again. The Venus/Leo circuitry creates a charismatic loop that fueled Michael’s love from his fans and vice versa. it was a love affair that was tested often throughout Jackson’s turbulent career. Uranus conjuncting his Venus in the 10th House illustrates the sudden and dramatic turns in his relationship with the public, with startling moments like Martin Bashir’s revealing and at time startling interview, the child abuse/molestation cases/trials, etc. Shcoking details and events would be par for the course with Jackson throughout his life. Chiron in Aqurius in the fourth house speaks to Michael’s shy and retiring nature, opposite Leo and his house of fame (Thanks Gloria!). It also speaks of a wounding of perhaps being exposed to mass media at a young age.

[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

tikana

07-06-2009, 06:23 AM

We will probably never know Michael's real time and could spend hours speculating over which projected Ascendant is the right one. All I do know is that Michael is dead and living on the other side of this life. I also know that he left a legacy of music that will continue on for a very long time. I also know that he suffered from depression, Moon square Saturn at birth, was the ultimate perfectionist, Pluto conjunct Sun at birth and he loved performing, Mercury, Venus, Uranus in Leo "King of Pop", and he was able to touch his audience very deeply when he was on stage. I was also told by people close to him that he was overly sensitive to criticism and deeply hurt by some of the meanspirited comments about him that were generated by the media. He also had difficulty making the right choices of people to trust and would withdraw when he felt he had been betrayed. He came in on a Full Moon and will be laid to rest on a Full Moon.
Even though some will say "gone to soon", I think his work in this planetary school, called earth, was finished.

ohh i forgot to say. what striked me in his chart was that sun/pluto conjunction in 4th house and moon sq saturn.

his venus is the most aspected planet
he has venus/uranus conj, venus square mars, venus/merc conj, venus/saturn trine.

as you said he was perfectionist, it rings true
libra is trapped in 5th house and also dominating 12th.

another powerful aspect in his chart is moon / saturn.
it seems like this aspect brings extreme anxiety and shyness to men more than to women. Strain relationship with mothers is a well known fact. Depression is YES indeed known. I would not be surprized if that Taurian Mars in 12th had attributed to his self destructive personality.

sun / pluto can bring self-destructiveness. maybe he expressed himself at best when he was with his kids. everyone who had seen him with kids said that he was the greatest father.
maybe it is soemthing worth looking into?

Cheers
T

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katydid

07-06-2009, 06:27 AM

Divine,

In the Gemini rising chart, go take a look at the MC. It is 21Aquarius, with Chiron right on the angle. The Chiron OPPOSES URANUS, Venus and Mercury in Leo. The ruler of the 10th, is in Leo conjunct Venus.
His mars is in the 12th, a PERFECT placement to describe his unusual sexual identity.
The libra rising chart puts it in the 8th, and that makes no sense to me.

But once again, we will have to agree to disagree as we may never know the actual time.

[deleted response to attacking comment - Moderator]

katydid

07-06-2009, 06:30 AM

[deleted response to attacking comment - Moderator]

divine g

07-06-2009, 06:48 AM

katydid

07-06-2009, 06:55 AM

Mars in 8th shows a battle over his money, his legacy, his will etc. Taurus rules money. Thats the whole point about Michael Jackson. Everything doesnt have to be sex! He was about innocence. Certain people remain celibate. Priests, nuns, etc. Mars rules other things besides sex.

And Katydid, that last comment was a general one. Meaning in general, some astrologers know what they're talking about, and some dont. I cant speak for anyone else. But in this case, I think the more intelligent, experienced astrologer would clearly see that the Libra Rising chart is the best fit.

He was about INNOCENCE? His hand grab to the crotch move ? That was about innocence?

[deleted response to attacking comment - Moderator]

aquarius7000

07-06-2009, 07:25 AM

The problem is that, if you change the sign on the Asc (Sco or Gem) to make the one more prominent (as on the Asc) than the other (which obviously also moves other planets to other houses), it will still never make the other unimportant. This is why, IMO:

1) If we put Scorpio on the Asc to bring that 'dark' theme out even more, well, the Sun-Pluto conjunction (which almost makes Pluto rule his Sun) already validates that theme.

2) If we put Gemini on the Asc (which I, personally, still go with), to underline the Mercurial side of his being, Merc already rules his Sun.

Further, whatever adjectives have been used to describe Uranus might be correct, but do you really need Uranus in the 10th for him to come across as a "famous eccentric"? With the 11:53 pm TOB, MJ's Uranus still aspects both the public points: it opposes his Aqua MC and sextiles his Asc. Also, needless to say, MJ was a "performer" (and, that too, one of his kind). Again, is Leo on the MC absolutely crucial to corroborate this fact? As already elaborated in a previous post of mine, look at his Venus (music and singing talent) and Merc (ruler of his Sun and probably his Asc through Gem- the lyricist) in Leo; doesn't that also speak volumes, not to mention the Jup-Nep-Nnode conj in the 5th house (and also aspecting his Leo Merc- ruler of Sun and perhaps also Asc- from there)? I also like the idea of having Leo on the cusp of the 4th, performances started early in life - in his childhood, and MJ was pushed by his father (Sun) to becoming a child performer. Finally, with the Moon in the 10th (Moon is connected with fame and found in the charts of performers of some sort; it puts you in the eyes of the people), not only did MJ sing (Moon's very tight quincunx to Venus) his soul (Piscean Moon, Ven lord of 12th through Tau- singing) out to the world (in the 10th) using a lot of spiritual/healing themes (Piscean Moon and Sun sextile Nep), but that Moon in the 10th also made for quite a flutuating career and a rather unstable public image, often tarnished through Moon's square to an angular Sat.
Another thing that I find quite fitting with that TOB is the idea of having Venus rule his 12th house and dispositing his Mars in there (platonic love, relationships, sexuality; ambiguity; fear and isolation). Other factors in the chart, like Sat (stability, also inhibitions/blockages/lack) on the Dsc or Ura (space in relationships, unconventional/shortlived rel'ships, partners as friends) conjunct Venus further add to that in their own way, of course. The chart is a complicated one (just like the native or his life), but a good one to learn from astrologically.

The conundrum still remains, or can you, Tikana, give us the link to the source, where you read about the confirmation of his TOB through his birth certificate?

Cheers,
AQ7

katydid

07-06-2009, 07:27 AM

[deleted response to attacking comment - Moderator]

divine g

07-06-2009, 07:40 AM

I feel Moon in Pisces in 10th would have the reputation of a sensitive poet. That was NOT MJ's reputation. Plain and simple. Again, believe what you want, I have others who agree with me, that's our story and we're sticking to it.

[deleted response to attacking comment - Moderator]

katydid

07-06-2009, 07:54 AM

[deleted response to attacking comment - Moderator]

tikana

07-06-2009, 08:52 AM

AQ

it was on google images
it has been ages since i had seen it..

T

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We will probably never know Michael's real time and could spend hours speculating over which projected Ascendant is the right one. All I do know is that Michael is dead and living on the other side of this life. I also know that he left a legacy of music that will continue on for a very long time. I also know that he suffered from depression, Moon square Saturn at birth, was the ultimate perfectionist, Pluto conjunct Sun at birth and he loved performing, Mercury, Venus, Uranus in Leo "King of Pop", and he was able to touch his audience very deeply when he was on stage. I was also told by people close to him that he was overly sensitive to criticism and deeply hurt by some of the meanspirited comments about him that were generated by the media. He also had difficulty making the right choices of people to trust and would withdraw when he felt he had been betrayed. He came in on a Full Moon and will be laid to rest on a Full Moon.
Even though some will say "gone to soon", I think his work in this planetary school, called earth, was finished.

The problem is that, if you change the sign on the Asc (Sco or Gem) to make the one more prominent (as on the Asc) than the other (which obviously also moves other planets to other houses), it will still never make the other unimportant. This is why, IMO:

1) If we put Scorpio on the Asc to bring that 'dark' theme out even more, well, the Sun-Pluto conjunction (which almost makes Pluto rule his Sun) already validates that theme.

2) If we put Gemini on the Asc (which I, personally, still go with), to underline the Mercurial side of his being, Merc already rules his Sun.

Further, whatever adjectives have been used to describe Uranus might be correct, but do you really need Uranus in the 10th for him to come across as a "famous eccentric"? With the 11:53 pm TOB, MJ's Uranus still aspects both the public points: it opposes his Aqua MC and sextiles his Asc. Also, needless to say, MJ was a "performer" (and, that too, one of his kind). Again, is Leo on the MC absolutely crucial to corroborate this fact? As already elaborated in a previous post of mine, look at his Venus (music and singing talent) and Merc (ruler of his Sun and probably his Asc through Gem- the lyricist) in Leo; doesn't that also speak volumes, not to mention the Jup-Nep-Nnode conj in the 5th house (and also aspecting his Leo Merc- ruler of Sun and perhaps also Asc- from there)? I also like the idea of having Leo on the cusp of the 4th, performances started early in life - in his childhood, and MJ was pushed by his father (Sun) to becoming a child performer. Finally, with the Moon in the 10th (Moon is connected with fame and found in the charts of performers of some sort; it puts you in the eyes of the people), not only did MJ sing (Moon's very tight quincunx to Venus) his soul (Piscean Moon, Ven lord of 12th through Tau- singing) out to the world (in the 10th) using a lot of spiritual/healing themes (Piscean Moon and Sun sextile Nep), but that Moon in the 10th also made for quite a flutuating career and a rather unstable public image, often tarnished through Moon's square to an angular Sat.
Another thing that I find quite fitting with that TOB is the idea of having Venus rule his 12th house and dispositing his Mars in there (platonic love, relationships, sexuality; ambiguity; fear and isolation). Other factors in the chart, like Sat (stability, also inhibitions/blockages/lack) on the Dsc or Ura (space in relationships, unconventional/shortlived rel'ships, partners as friends) conjunct Venus further add to that in their own way, of course. The chart is a complicated one (just like the native or his life), but a good one to learn from astrologically.

The conundrum still remains, or can you, Tikana, give us the link to the source, where you read about the confirmation of his TOB through his birth certificate?

Cheers,
AQ7

[Mod edit - to move the brief response above the long quotes, and make the post more reader-friendly.]

estrella

07-06-2009, 09:14 AM

I've heard convincing arguments from all sides. I have to say this whole thread is very interesting, but I don't have the energy or interest to break it down-especially since we're merely speculating, so I'll deal with it in a broad stroke.
I really totally agree with what aquarius7000 said above. The Gemini ascendant just feels right to me. I can totally see his MC being Aquarius because he was an innovator in his genre and he did have a reputation as a humanitarian, but also at times of an aloof eccentric. Also, the Gemini rising chart puts Mars in a position that explains the conflicted sexuality that he exhibited. Also, the Gemini asc. chart puts alot of activity into the 3rd and 4th houses which shows the frenzy of activity in his childhood and the tension in his homelife.
But...no one knows, and anyone who says they do is blowing hot air. I've been doing astrology long enough to know not to vehemently assume anything. Perhaps it would most productive to discuss what is for sure regardless of ascendancy. The Chiron, Jupiter, and Neptune influence on MJ is a good place as any to start.
I won't bore you with my writing anymore. Here is a most excellent article that discusses the impact of the Chiron, Jup, and Neptune trinity in MJ's life. Nick Best uses a Gemini Ascendant.
http://celebrityastrologyblog.com/2009/06/28/michael-jackson-dies-a-jupiter-neptune-life/

Enjoy

smilingsteph

07-06-2009, 02:48 PM

Why dosen't anyone look to his personal lyrics, friends or his father to be used in analyzing the charts?

I think we are basing these opinions based on who we saw on stage, what we saw in the media regarding his personal life....
But that was not the complete Micheal, he was a mystery, we did not know him- the media didn't either. Thus those that write their own music turn inwards from personal issues to give a voice to what lies within. We must look there.

All great entertainers are wonderful, but most dont write their own music. He writes his own music, except in the early years. He also loves to collaborate...

He loved to collaborate with others, on universal musical pieces - "we are the world" that would be shown by a possible Uranus in the 3rd. Which would show his career, Aquarius in the 10th.

I have seen that Liz Taylor's natal chart seems pretty accurate...maybe a look into the synastry with Michaels Gemini Ascendant char would be interesting?

I also think that he tried to nurture himself and others with his words, cancer 3rd house, moon in 10th

He also really hated groupies...Dirty Diana, Billie Jean- Misdirected mars 12th house square venus...Which can also explain his charismatic sex appeal (I never found him to be attractive) but many did!

Pluto in the 4th, a domineering father...pluto conjunct sun, burning up the sun...Father domineered Michaels career as a child.

Personally I more agree with the Gemini Ascendant

lillyjgc

07-06-2009, 04:07 PM

If anyone is interested in attempting a chart rectification, this info may help you:

Aug 29, 1958 – Michael Joseph Jackson born in Gary, Indiana.
Nov 1969 – First taste of chart success age of 11 when Jackson Five release first single "I Want You Back".

1978 – Meets producer Quincy Jones in New York, beginning a musical collaboration leading to some of his greatest hits. First plastic surgery after breaking his nose in a dance routine.
Nov 1982 – Releases the album Thriller which goes on to enter the record books as the best-selling record of all time.
March 1983 – Demonstrates his trademark "moonwalk" dance for the first time on a television programme about the history of Motown music.
Dec 1983 – Release of Thriller as a single accompanied by short spoof horror film, seen as a landmark in the development of music video.
Jan 1984 – Suffers burns in while filming an advertisement for Pepsi Cola leading to more surgery.
1986 – First media reports, later denied, that Jackson sleeps in an oxygen tent. Acquires a pet chimp called Bubbles.
1987 – Releases the album Bad, a major worldwide hit but it falls short of the success enjoyed by Thriller.
1988 – Builds his fantasy "Neverland" ranch in California complete with a fair ground.
1993 – Allegations emerge that he molested Jordan Chandler, a 13-year-old boy, at Neverland. Charges are never pressed after a reported $26m (£16m) settlement.
May 1994 – Marries Lisa Marie Presley, the daughter of Elvis Presley in a low key ceremony in the Dominican Republic. They divorce less than two years later.
Nov 1996 – Marries Debbie Rowe, his nurse. The marriage lasts three years.
Feb 1997 – Birth of the couple's first child, a son, Prince Michael Jackson. A daughter, Paris Michael Katherine, follows in 1998.
2002 – International outcry as Jackson dangles his third child, Prince Michael II, who was born to a surrogate mother, from a Berlin hotel balcony in front of photographers and fans.
Feb 2003 – Screening of documentary in which Jackson tells the interviewer Martin Bashir that he shared a bed with a young boy, remarking: "It's a beautiful thing."
Nov 2003 – Arrested on charges of molesting 12-year-old Gavin Arvizo, whose family had been close to the singer.
June 2005 – Acquitted of child molestation, conspiracy and alcohol charges.
June 25 2009 – Collapses and dies in Los Angeles ahead of a planned series of comeback concerts in London.
Cheers
Lillyjgc

Exoteric Astrology

07-06-2009, 04:24 PM

I won't bore you with my writing anymore. Here is a most excellent article that discusses the impact of the Chiron, Jup, and Neptune trinity in MJ's life. Nick Best uses a Gemini Ascendant.
http://celebrityastrologyblog.com/2009/06/28/michael-jackson-dies-a-jupiter-neptune-life/

Enjoy
Estrella,

Thanks for the plug and the compliment. I just want to clarify that in the article I state that he was probably born around noon, and use the 11:53 a.m. time for his chart display, and while I also happen to think there is a strong case to be made for a Gemini Ascendant, the article itself makes no argument one way or the other. It is simply about the Jupiter-Neptune recurrence transits of Michael's lifetime, and even if the birth time turned out to be completely wrong, the points made in the article would remain accurate and valid.

Thanks again,

Nick

silentwarrior

07-06-2009, 04:57 PM

Dear Aquarius 7000, I could not have said it better. I once had someone tell me that you do chase in adult life that which you did not get in childhood. For some it goes deeper.:crying:

fensi88

07-06-2009, 07:42 PM

katydid

07-06-2009, 09:17 PM

I found this on TYL's forum:

"Vedic astrologer Chakrapani Ullal was Michael Jackson's astrologer for at least 2 years in the late '80's.
Jackson personally gave Chakrapani a time of 7:33 PM for his birth and did not quote a source.
This information given by Chakrapani to me with permission to publish to various lists.
Pat Taglilatelo will update this data to ADB. Best, Steve"

Yes, I think this is the Pisces rising chart with the Moon on the ascendant. That part works for me. I could easily see his appearance as being Piscean, and can see the effects of his Moon on the asc. [His extreme sensitivity and his fluctuating appearance.] I do have doubts about the Saturn being conjunct his MC though. :rightful:
I would like to see some validation or proof that Ullal was indeed his astrologer. I would imagine there were other people who might be able to verify it.
IT WOULD JUST BE NICE TO HAVE A VERIFIED TIME OF BIRTH!

lillyjgc

07-07-2009, 03:01 AM

katydid

07-07-2009, 03:27 AM

Katydid,
I appreciate your frustration here. I googled for literally hours last night looking for something to validate MJ's TOB. There just ISNT any proof and there are over 9 different times being cited as the right one. We'll need to do a rectification I think, but we have enough info to do that.
Part of the mystery of the guy-no TOB. Personally I think hes either got Neptune in h1 or Pisces in h1/. But thats only my *guess* and no more or less valid than anyone else's *guess*.We are all only guessing here.
Lillyjgc

I agree. Soon there will be several recitifications floating about and we will be discussing/arguing about those with the same intensity I suppose. :whistling:

But you are right--there are many well timed events that will certainly show up on his angles, and it should be possible to find the accurate time.

I am liking the Pisces or Gemini rising for now. :unsure:

Courtney Love

07-07-2009, 11:29 PM

No one can do a rectification using his 2:26pm Time of Death?

katydid

07-07-2009, 11:33 PM

No one can do a rectification using his 2:26pm Time of Death?

The 2 charts that I 'feel' the most both have mutable angles. So far when I find an event show up on his asc/desc it shows up also in the other chart on his Mc/ic axis. :sad:

Claire19

07-08-2009, 08:31 AM

Do we have his right time of birth. Some say Sagittarius and some say Leo.
Was he murdered or was it accidental??/ Many questions.

tikana

07-08-2009, 08:41 AM

Do we have his right time of birth. Some say Sagittarius and some say Leo.
Was he murdered or was it accidental??/ Many questions.

Murdered? depends how you define it. Overdosing someone with anesthesia - yes knowing that a particular drug is deadly.
prescribing someone with an illegal prescription drug and the patient pokes himself with it - not really but DA may press charges.
I would wait for autopsy results before jumping into a murder.

T

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Claire19

07-11-2009, 08:04 AM

Claire19

07-11-2009, 08:07 AM

Claire19

07-11-2009, 08:08 AM

Yes so would I but there is that huge one hundred million dollar insurance policy if he did not go ahead with the concerts. There are many questions...

tikana

07-11-2009, 08:30 AM

I agree with most of what you say but the Sun Pluto in the 4th indicates the abuse he says he suffered from his father. The 4th is not just early childhood which is also the 1st house but it is also later life conditions. Venus Uranus is also unconventional love interests and that he worked hard through his childhood and tried to capture it later in life with Neverland etc is also valid with the Moon Saturn for instance. Mars in the 12th can be hidden sexual urges and inconjunct with Saturn, repression of libido and impotence. That he did not have a normal sex life is well known. I would not go so far as to say he was a paedophile but he may have been asexual rather. The Virgo sun could back this up.

Claire

Brooke Shields did hint that MJ was asexual and no one has really seen him with a girl. on a tape between MJ and his attorney, attorney asked "are you gay" MJ replied with a giggle "of course i am not gay" regarding abuse,,, well, the first person who started with abuse was La Toya. She has said that her father abused her and Janet (i think) to see if Sun/Pluto in MJ's chart does really indicate the sign of abuse, I would look at Janet's and Latoya's chart and synastry between Kathrine and Joseph. Joseph is unbelievbly obnoxious who had the balls to start promoting his record label on the red carpet while everyone was mourning MJ's, his flesh and blood's, death.

what is interesting is that

LaToya has sun/saturn oppostion
MJ has sun/pluto conjunction
janet has sun/neptune opposition but sun/saturn sextile

4th house naturally deals with childhood and the roots. MJ lived in his missed childhood. that sun/pluto is very strong aspect
i was thinking ... what if Joseph was jelous of Michael. Michael showed his geniusness almost from diaper age and Joseph got nowhere on his own

Get this ..
Joseph's official website DOES NOT even mention Michael's death
LaToya's official website writes this on her website http://www.latoyaonline.com/
Janet's official website http://www.janetjackson.com/ says very warming words for Michael
this shoudl seriously tell you that Joseph is one rare

T

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[Mod edit - deleted distasteful text.]

smilingsteph

07-11-2009, 04:46 PM

Claire

Get this ..
Joseph's official website DOES NOT even mention Michael's death
LaToya's official website writes this on her website http://www.latoyaonline.com/
Janet's official website http://www.janetjackson.com/ says very warming words for Michael
this shoudl seriously tell you that Joseph is one rare

T

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Wow that makes me sick! Seeing Joseph in the media also has made me think that he is trying to control Michael's life even in death. Pluto in the 4th here, father control...

[Mod edit - deleted distasteful text in the quote.]

tikana

07-11-2009, 05:01 PM

I incline towards Pisces rising with perhaps the Moon in 1st. He had the big eyes of a Piscean rather and the sweet naive ways as well as the extreme sensitivity That he was very pale due to whatever condition would also indicate the Moon influence.

you guys wont believe this!
JOSEPH wants to raise Michael's kids///
keep those kids out of Joseph's hands!

[Mod edit - deleted distasteful text.]

katydid

07-11-2009, 05:19 PM

you guys wont believe this!
JOSEPH wants to raise Michael's kids///
keep those kids out of Joseph's hands!

Not only does he want to raise them, he thinks they might do well in show business, and said he hopes they follow in their dads footsteps. :ninja:

[Mod edit - deleted distasteful text in the quote.]

tikana

07-11-2009, 05:39 PM

Not only does he want to raise them, he thinks they might do well in show business, and said he hopes they follow in their dads footsteps. :ninja:

yeah i heard that one.. .. i hope the judge and the jacksons can say "keep your hands off the kids"
what a scumbag

T

[Mod edit - deleted distasteful text.]

starlink

07-11-2009, 05:50 PM

i hope the judge and the jacksons can say "keep your hands off the kids"
what a scumbag
Yes, just by looking at this man, you get the shivers!
I absolutely must not think of that possibility, the kids in his care, oh God!!. It would be disastrous for those children.Any judge in his right mind would just know that this Joseph is a danger to those kids. What I dont understand is that his wife tolerated it all and never left him. She cannot possibly have NOT known about the abuse going on. I am praying that the kids are kept safe.

tikana

07-11-2009, 06:14 PM

Yes, just by looking at this man, you get the shivers!
I absolutely must not think of that possibility, the kids in his care, oh God!!. It would be disastrous for those children.Any judge in his right mind would just know that this Joseph is a danger to those kids. What I dont understand is that his wife tolerated it all and never left him. She cannot possibly have NOT known about the abuse going on. I am praying that the kids are kept safe.

Kathrine? Kathrine has been living apart for more than dozen years from Joseph. as far as i know Kathrine was a homemaker so it is close to impossible to raise so many kids. see, if today's laws were implemented back then, Michael would have been alive with us today and maybe never experience the abuse he endured.

katydid

07-11-2009, 07:34 PM

Kathrine? Kathrine has been living apart for more than dozen years from Joseph. as far as i know Kathrine was a homemaker so it is close to impossible to raise so many kids. see, if today's laws were implemented back then, Michael would have been alive with us today and maybe never experience the abuse he endured.

But she has not divorced him. He has just been living in Vegas on his own, but he does come 'home' for holidays and such. So the scary thing is that once the kids begin living with Katherine, Joe will want to be back home and 'raising them up' as he has already said.
He will go where the money is.:alien:

tikana

07-11-2009, 07:59 PM

Katy

hi

yeah i agree. it is very tricky situation.
Rowe does not really want the kids ... but money heck yeah
Kathrine is way too old and Jackson family is not good either cause of Joseph.
Diana Ross - i dont think kids know her as good as aunt Janet.
Splitting them apart is not a solution either. Attorneys and judge have one major case in front of them. If the judge can rule that Joseph not to be near or have any input, that would work.

Too many lies and secrets within Jackson family. Jermaine, MJ's brother, said in Neverland that he does no know anything about MJ's drug abuse. According to former bodyguards, they said that Janet and Jermaine staged an intervention. Pure insanity if you ask me. How can a doctor miss a chain of marks on someone's arms and neck and not to raise red flags? hopefully we will know within 2-3 weeks what was in the system if anything.

we cant even look into Michael's siblings's charts to see what is really going on. Other than MJ's birthtime we have nothing to go by.
i think we do have 2 kids'birthtime and i am not sure if the kids would show up since they are not even sharing the same DNA with MJ

T

Courtney Love

07-12-2009, 09:04 AM

it's so sad to hope that someone dies or becomes incapacitated.. but Lord please do something to hold Joe Jackson back.

He said he'd been "watching" Paris, and that the child wants to "do something" so all those jokes about him creating the "jackson 3" aren't off base, which is beyond frightening.

Can anyone tell if those children are Jacko's biologically, or does his chart just show how many he'd have? Everyone is saying those kids "look white" but they look mixed to me, just maybe not Michael's.

tikana

07-12-2009, 09:14 AM

Courtney

good question... None of the kids are Michael's. Rowe is the mother of 2 kids BUT father is from a sperm donor. There is a speculation that doctor Klein, Michael's dermoologist and also Rowe's boss, is a father BUT Klein says they are not his kids. He did donate sperm in the past. 3rd baby, "Blanket",
"Prince Michael Jackson II (born February 21, 2002[18] (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/#cite_note-blanketage-17)), also known as Blanket, is the third and youngest child of Michael Jackson. Blanket's mother's identity has never been released. In an interview with Martin Bashir (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/wiki/Martin_Bashir), Jackson provided two confliciting statements regarding Blanket's mother. Jackson originally stated that he had a relationship with the mother and the child was born out of that relationship. Jackson also claimed that Blanket's birth mother was black, even though the child appeared white. However, Jackson later contradicted his previous statement by claiming that the child was the result of artificial insemination (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/wiki/Artificial_insemination) from a unknown surrogate mother (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/wiki/Surrogacy) whom he'd never met and his own sperm cells (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/wiki/Spermatozoon).[12] (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/#cite_note-tara_599-600-11) After Jackson's death, speculation circulated that Jackson was not the child's biological father and it was revealed that Jackson never legally adopted the child. The nickname "Blanket" was created by Jackson, who explained, "It's an expression I use with my family and my employees. I say, 'You should blanket me or you should blanket her', meaning like a blanket is a blessing. It's a way of showing love and caring."[12] (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/#cite_note-tara_599-600-11)" this is from wikipedia

Bunch of contradictions - I bet none of these kids share Michael's DNA/bloodline..

sorry ... too many unasnwered questions. it woudl not surprize me that Michael wanted to design his own bloodline/tree. Think about it... He created his own peace on earth/Neverland, was constantly designing and redesigning his face/body He resented his father ... so just maybe he wanted all those 3 kids to be his kids without sharing his DNA and start a new dynasty. I hope that someon will have the guts and stand up to Joseph with "you ruined MIchael's childhood, we will not let you ruin his kids"

T

silentwarrior

07-12-2009, 11:16 PM

katydid

07-12-2009, 11:20 PM

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/06/28/77265.html. I found this just a few minutes ago. it posts Michael's birth time at 12:13 am. This would give a Gemini ascendant. Let's here from everybody!!!

But there was no indication where that birth time came from. I think he does have Gemini or Pisces rising, but I want to see some proof concerning a given birth time.

silentwarrior

07-12-2009, 11:57 PM

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/pim/el/abook_rdex_1.gif (http://address.mail.yahoo.com/yab/us/?id=16777251&VPC=detailed_contact&.rand=639229031) englishnews@alarabiya.net. I did indeed send a request to the above address for the author of the article and the source of the info. Katydid. did you know Michael was a twin of brother Marlon who died at birth of heart failure? When I saw the Gemini asc, I Googled asking if MJ had a twin brother, My Mon had two sets of twins and the mutable signs appear to be pretty prominent in the chart. Sorry about not getting the source, I just got excited about finding this.:smile:

tikana

07-13-2009, 12:02 AM

Silent

i think you are wrong on twin brother

"Marlon was born "Marlon David Jackson on March 12, 1957. He is the brother of the American pop star Michael Jackson. Born in Gary, Indiana to parents Joseph and Katherine Jackson, Marlon was premature; his twin brother, Brandon, died within hours of birth. Marlon twin brother died of respiratory failure. Marlon was a dancer and singer in the Jackson Five group. He was often ridiculed by his father because he could not sing and dance as well as Michael."

Michael himself did not have a twin

Michael was born in 58 ... Marlon jackson was born in 57.. he had a twin, Brandon

T

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silentwarrior

07-13-2009, 12:35 AM

Dear Tikana, I am wrong,sorry.

Member
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http://forum.astro.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/asfor/xx.gif (http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1000019817/2#2)re: Michael (1958) Jackson
« Reply #2 - on: 20.02.2003 at 12:30 [UT] »
reply by Astrodatabank Web User Linda

Noel Tyl rectified Michael's chart to August 29, 1958, 11:57 P.M. in Gary, Indiana. Gemini rising. There was a recent article on his site www.noeltyl.com (http://www.noeltyl.com/) which I believe is gone now. That would put his Neptune - Jupiter conjunct in the 5th house. Considering his obsession with children for better or worse that would make sense. I was born September 3, 1958 which is four days after Michael and living with the Neptune Jupiter conjunction myself it works. My Neptune is within 29 seconds of rising at my birth conjunct Jupiter. That would currently give him Pluto conjunct Saturn transiting with Saturn being his 8th house ruler which also goes along with his current difficulties. Also, he would currently have Pluto opposite his Ascendent.
Back to top (http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1000019817#top)

tikana

07-13-2009, 12:45 AM

Silent

i did think that Michael did have a twin a fear years ago when i went on a search of a birth certificate... the names are repetitious. maybe someone yanked birth certificate because it was somehow illegally obtained from city hall. i dont know what happend to it..

T

Dear Tikana, I am wrong,sorry.

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http://forum.astro.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/asfor/xx.gif (http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1000019817/2#2)re: Michael (1958) Jackson

« Reply #2 - on: 20.02.2003 at 12:30 [UT] »

reply by Astrodatabank Web User Linda

Noel Tyl rectified Michael's chart to August 29, 1958, 11:57 P.M. in Gary, Indiana. Gemini rising. There was a recent article on his site www.noeltyl.com (http://www.noeltyl.com/) which I believe is gone now. That would put his Neptune - Jupiter conjunct in the 5th house. Considering his obsession with children for better or worse that would make sense. I was born September 3, 1958 which is four days after Michael and living with the Neptune Jupiter conjunction myself it works. My Neptune is within 29 seconds of rising at my birth conjunct Jupiter. That would currently give him Pluto conjunct Saturn transiting with Saturn being his 8th house ruler which also goes along with his current difficulties. Also, he would currently have Pluto opposite his Ascendent.

Back to top (http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1000019817#top)

katydid

07-13-2009, 12:54 AM

Dear Tikana, I am wrong,sorr

Noel Tyl rectified Michael's chart to August 29, 1958, 11:57 P.M. in Gary, Indiana. Gemini rising. There was a recent article on his site www.noeltyl.com (http://www.noeltyl.com/) which I believe is gone now. That would put his Neptune - Jupiter conjunct in the 5th house. Considering his obsession with children for better or worse that would make sense. I was born September 3, 1958 which is four days after Michael and living with the Neptune Jupiter conjunction myself it works. My Neptune is within 29 seconds of rising at my birth conjunct Jupiter. That would currently give him Pluto conjunct Saturn transiting with Saturn being his 8th house ruler which also goes along with his current difficulties. Also, he would currently have Pluto opposite his Ascendent.
Back to top (http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1000019817#top)

Noel Tyl wrote the book on rectification. If I were going to trust somebody in rectifying a chart it would most likely be him. Also Jacksons mother said he was born at night, so that knocks out a few of the other ones already. :tongue:

tikana

07-13-2009, 12:58 AM

Noel Tyl wrote the book on rectification. If I were going to trust somebody in rectifying a chart it would most likely be him. Also Jacksons mother said he was born at night, so that knocks out a few of the other ones already. :tongue:

Katy

I rectified my chart using Noel Tyl to verify if my calculations were right and i have no clue when i was born so i had to go through 24 hours
i was off by 5 minutes.

T

katydid

07-13-2009, 01:12 AM

Katy

I rectified my chart using Noel Tyl to verify if my calculations were right and i have no clue when i was born so i had to go through 24 hours
i was off by 5 minutes.

T

Did you eventually find out your birthtime and compare it then? If so, that was pretty good job you did.

Here is something else I found on Noel Tyl's forum;

I am one of a handful of professional musicians who is also an astrologer. I had the opportunity of working on a tour with the Jackson Family in an opening band. We all got a chance to know Michael very well. Behind closed doors he was full of pranks, games and humor, just a wonderful soul to be around. I did have the opportunity to tell him about my astrological hobby and I asked if there was a way to get the birth times of himself and his brothers. He couldn't answer for his brothers but his response to me was, "i know it was late, almost the next day. It was between 11:30 and midnight." He wrote a number on a card, told me who to ask for at an office and the time given to me was "11:53 PM." It seems that just about all of them were born late in the evening.

tikana

07-13-2009, 01:14 AM

[QUOTE=katydid;150062]Did you eventually find out your birthtime and compare it then? If so, that was pretty good job you did.

*** i never did .. it's impossible***

Here is something else I found on Noel Tyl's forum;

I am one of a handful of professional musicians who is also an astrologer. I had the opportunity of working on a tour with the Jackson Family in an opening band. We all got a chance to know Michael very well. Behind closed doors he was full of pranks, games and humor, just a wonderful soul to be around. I did have the opportunity to tell him about my astrological hobby and I asked if there was a way to get the birth times of himself and his brothers. He couldn't answer for his brothers but his response to me was, "i know it was late, almost the next day. It was between 11:30 and midnight." He wrote a number on a card, told me who to ask for at an office and the time given to me was "11:53 PM." It seems that just about all of them were born late in the evening.[

** Noel is pretty lucky guy to know Michael personally. Why all the things he did are only popping up AFTER his death? i was shocked to find out that MJ loved Tschaikovsky"***

T

katydid

07-13-2009, 01:17 AM

tikana

07-13-2009, 01:20 AM

[QUOTE=tikana;150064]
NO, this was written by a forum member, NOT Tyl. This was written by some astrologer on the forum, but it goes along with what I have read from other people too. That the 11;53 BT was from his Birth Certificate. I wish there was verification of this.

ahh okay.. it is well known fact that MJ was a prankster.
well .. i saw birth certificate online a few years ago right around 1st molestation charge. i entered it in my solar fire db but did not save the link

T

katydid

07-13-2009, 01:21 AM

[QUOTE=katydid;150066]

ahh okay.. it is well known fact that MJ was a prankster.
well .. i saw birth certificate online a few years ago right around 1st molestation charge. i entered it in my solar fire db but did not save the link

T

What was the time on the BC? Do you remember?

tikana

07-13-2009, 01:23 AM

[QUOTE=tikana;150069]

What was the time on the BC? Do you remember?

yeah i stored it as 11:53 pm

this chart fits perfectly.

katydid

07-13-2009, 01:39 AM

[QUOTE=katydid;150070]

yeah i stored it as 11:53 pm

this chart fits perfectly.

Yes, it is my first choice for sure. The saturn on the desc, the mars in the 12th, and the moon in Pisces in the 10th, all of that works really well imo. Plus the leo planets down around the IC, performing with family since childhood.
And his physical presence is VERY Gemini like. He looks, speaks and acts like a Gemini rising would.[ I could see Pisces Moon on the asc, but not the scorpio rising chart imo. ]

I have not looked at the death transits/progressions yet. It is too depressing. :sad:

tikana

07-13-2009, 02:10 AM

[QUOTE=tikana;150071]

Yes, it is my first choice for sure. The saturn on the desc, the mars in the 12th, and the moon in Pisces in the 10th, all of that works really well imo. Plus the leo planets down around the IC, performing with family since childhood.
And his physical presence is VERY Gemini like. He looks, speaks and acts like a Gemini rising would.[ I could see Pisces Moon on the asc, but not the scorpio rising chart imo. ]

I have not looked at the death transits/progressions yet. It is too depressing. :sad:

i looked at MJ's death transits.. look at the thread MJ and Farrah Fawcett

T

silentwarrior

07-13-2009, 02:34 AM

Dear Tikana, I so believe I was wrong again it was one of the other brother's who had the twin. I e-mailed a couple of astrologers I know who might be able to enlighten further. When I hear from them you will hear from me .Goodnight ladies and gents:sleeping:

katydid

07-13-2009, 02:50 AM

[QUOTE=katydid;150073]

i looked at MJ's death transits.. look at the thread MJ and Farrah Fawcett

T

Thanks. I just went and looked at those transits again. I think the Gemini asc is born out by the Saturn squares, and making the grand square to asc./saturn/moon in his natal chart.
Also the transits to the ruler of his 12th. :alien:

silentwarrior

07-13-2009, 09:50 AM

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jackson%2C_Michael_(1958) (http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jackson%2C_Michael_(1958)) lois rodden has this on her site.

[fixed link - Moderator]

lillyjgc

07-13-2009, 01:10 PM

silentwarrior,
I followed your link but the info appears to have been removed. The Jackson Chart was given a DD rating by Rodden..which means *unverified*.
Cheers
Lillyjgc

ChristineK

07-13-2009, 04:38 PM

Long ago, I heard that Michael Jackson answered a reporter re:time of birth as being "definitely some time after 10:30 p.m"...and said he would get back to him. Gemini ascendant is good fit...slim all his life and Gemini's seem to always have expressive...beautiful hands. Pisces and even Leo are commonly credited with artistry...but over and over again, I've seen Gemini as being shy and insecure about their ability to grasp the essence of beauty and deliver it. "Messenger of the Gods". Many are absolutely brilliant..and I think he had Gemini asc...he had that shyness and bit of insecurity and worked extremely hard (Mars, Taurus) to perfect (Virgo sun) his art.....to deliver it. Puts Mars in Taurus in 12th, secret enemies..and I think we will discover he was destroyed for money. Pisces house...associated with drugs...Taurus, money. Pluto in 4th with sun...early childhood disruption, separation from mother...house of mother...he travelled with his brothers and father..interestingly, he died at home..PL and sun in 4th and he died while Sun was in Cancer. He saw his mother as strong, despite childhood abuse..and father appears, I think in the 10th with Aquarius. Odd duck father who managed to bring his children to world-wide fame. There seems to be something of self-glorification with Aquarian parents..the pull of the polar-opposition of Leo and their need for attention. They "value" what brings them attention. Jupiter and Neptune in 5th...Neptune oh-so-close to 6th... explain Neverland in house of the sun....Leo..and his love of children. Aquarius at top of chart...and Chiron located here...early wounding and where you can be a mentor or healer..."Heal the World"...large scale humanitarian efforts. Strong Jupiter influence with Pisces and Sagittarius...Mars in Pisces house...Saturn in 7th house Sagittarius. Moon in Pisces at top of chart..the higher the moon is in a chart the higher the likelihood of fame, his fame is linked to his feet...Pisces. Lilith in Aries...unresolved issues with woman..the woman who can tip you over the edge...Diana Ross is an Aries. Scorpio 6th house explains his surgeries, I think, and with Neptune so close-by, if not in this house...it's the Virgo house, health....Scorpio, surgery..and Neptune would indicate he had some illusions about this. Venus in third...Gemini house..his in Leo....tricks, games, ego and I believe Uranus is here...sudden changes in style...communication..Gemini....dramatic, sudden changes which he loved..Venus. I don't see..and he was evaluated by psychiatrists and found to not be...a pedophile. I think he was completely capable of a "higher form of love" with Sagittarius in 7th, Mars in 12th, Pisces house. Restriction in 7th with Saturn here..and loneliness...but also philosophical attitude. Idealistic..I don't think he found anyone "good enough" ..toss in Virgo sun's picky perfectionism/criticism. Jupiter in fifth house is massive...in the house of the sun. Benevolence, idealism, profound love for children..he shined here, nurtured here..and with a Pisces moon he would be highly intuitive to their needs. You "got" Pisces from him due to this, I think...strong, strong Jupiter influence, in powerful locations. He was very spiritual and "other-worldly". I think he was a gift. An instrument of the divine. I'll miss him.

MaryCallaghan

07-13-2009, 08:57 PM

Hi there,

According to his fan site Michael Jackson’s time of birth was 0:13am and I think the chart for this time really fits well.

http://www.mjfanclub.net/home/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64:key-facts&catid=107:biographical-data&Itemid=102

The asc would be 20 gemini with fixed stars Bellatrix, Phact and Capella. This goes well with his love of speed, military honours (he always dressed in military uniforms when getting awards) etc.

The stellium in 3rd & 4th Houses fits with big family.

Moon in Pisces in the 10th is conjunct Deneb Adige which is described as Intelligent, creative, original, naive, astrology, writing, the public, dog bites. I saw an interview with him when he said he was afraid of dogs because they bite.

Saturn on the desc - I think he had his heart broken many times. At the time of the trial Pluto would have been on Saturn and the desc

North node (conjunct Arcturus and Spica), Jupiter and Neptune in 5th.

Obviously 25 aqu (now at the midheaven) is really important at the time of his death with transiting Jupiter, Neptune, Chiron conjunction!

Also if asc is 20 Gemini, the current ongoing Saturn Uranus opposition would have created a grand cross with the asc when it was exact in Feb.

At his death, perhaps the medication was administered at 11:35 on 25th June (Mercury square Saturn), and he actually died at 11:55 when the transiting MC/ASC axis was at 20 degrees creating a grand cross linking the 20 Gemini/Sag Asc/dsc axis.

I think the Gemini asc fits well. He lived life as two people. The first half as black and the second part white.

What I find fascinating is if you do a composite davison chart for his time of birth and time of death you get the midpoint of his life.

It is 27 January 1984 – the day his hair caught fire on the Pepsi ad set. Up to this point the accolades were coming thick and fast, and things started to deteriorate from there.

Quincy Jones said he was a different person after that day.

I am sure he is in a wonderful place. Love to him and his family.

katydid

07-13-2009, 09:05 PM

What I find fascinating is if you do a composite davison chart for his time of birth and time of death you get the midpoint of his life.

It is 27 January 1984 – the day his hair caught fire on the Pepsi ad set. Up to this point the accolades were coming thick and fast, and things started to deteriorate from there.

Quincy Jones said he was a different person after that day.

AMAZING. That is fascinating. I never thought of doing that technique before.I have to go find my Dads info again. I kind of blocked out my Dads death, even though I was with him when he passed, I cannot for the life of me remember exactly when it was. I would be really curious to see his Davison
midpoint of life.

Courtney Love

07-13-2009, 09:10 PM

tikana

07-14-2009, 01:16 AM

[QUOTE=tikana;150077]

Thanks. I just went and looked at those transits again. I think the Gemini asc is born out by the Saturn squares, and making the grand square to asc./saturn/moon in his natal chart.
Also the transits to the ruler of his 12th. :alien:

dunno if there will be DNA done on kids

T

Awakened_Pisces

07-14-2009, 07:21 AM

Look at the kid, that kid is not "Sad", if anything that kid is "Upset" and what I mean by that is she's thinking "What am I doing here?"

If they were biological siblings, mourning the death of their father. Then don't you think they'd comfort the kid? They don't even want to look at her.

We'll never know the full secrets of Jackson's life,and I'd say that's a good thing. God knows what stress that child's been put through.

[deleted swear - Moderator]

SagiCap

07-14-2009, 07:26 AM

I know what the gossip is, I just wanted to know if people could tell in his chart if they were his biological children. Alot of people think they couldn't be his because they're "white" and he's black, but not only does Joe Jackson have blue eyes, but Paris is the same colour as La Toya. I know many people are saying many different things, I just wanted to know if they were biologically his... Notice in this pic... Paris has big blue eyes, but look at La Toya... they could easily be related... I think Paris seems a bit dark, especially having blonde blue-eyed Debbie Rowe as a mom.

http://socialitelife.celebuzz.com/bfm_gallery/2009/07/michael_jacksons_children_and_family_at_memorial_s ervice/gallery_main/gallery_main-paris-jackson-michael-jackson-family-07072009-21.jpg

In genetics, it's not just colour and shade. It's also facial features. This girl - and all the children do not have any African American features at all. In the least. Not one bit. Even that said, judging any similiarity with the noses of the Jackson women (for example) is not going to help either when you factor in the scalpel.

Who cares anyway? My greater concern is that children all over the world, rich or poor, famous or unknown are cared for, clean and fed. That should be our concern rather than pinpointing the percentage of their blackness or whiteness. Oh, there was a song about this....

Courtney Love

07-14-2009, 06:36 PM

In genetics, it's not just colour and shade. It's also facial features. This girl - and all the children do not have any African American features at all. In the least. Not one bit. Even that said, judging any similiarity with the noses of the Jackson women (for example) is not going to help either when you factor in the scalpel.

Who cares anyway? My greater concern is that children all over the world, rich or poor, famous or unknown are cared for, clean and fed. That should be our concern rather than pinpointing the percentage of their blackness or whiteness. Oh, there was a song about this....

Who cares? Is it not obvious that I do, which is why I asked the question are they biologically his. This is a thread about Michael Jackson, and i wondered if his chart would show whether the kids were his biologically or not (I wondered how much a chart could show these types of details) , this isn't a thread about philosophy or the greater good of all the children in the world.

tikana

07-14-2009, 06:47 PM

Courtney

logically the chart should show a child
5th house is own child
11th is adopted

either way, an apperance of a child should show up in a chart

T

Virinchi

07-15-2009, 02:45 PM

jacksons chart in vedic way
http://www.illuminate.in/discus/viewthread.php?tid=243

aquarius7000

07-16-2009, 05:53 AM

I have moved the Horary question posted to the Greenhorns' Horary Board. Please go here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/images/futura/misc/tag.png Did M. Jackson fake his death? (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17838) to discuss it.

:)AQ7

tikana

07-24-2009, 07:41 PM

Okay
Michael Jackson is really a man of mystery

Supposevely he has another child who was born way way earlier than his 3 kids.

his name is Omer Bhatti and he is like 22 years old. Speculation swirls that Omer Bhatti, Norwegian dancer, is Michael Jackson's son from one-night stand

He was seen right next to Jackson's family at the memorial
The speculation is that Michael Jackson had a one night stand with Pia Bhatti
Also, Pia Bhatti is linked to be mother of Blanket!

"Jackson never disclosed the identity of seven-year-old Prince Michael Jackson II’s (AKA “Blanket”) mother, revealing only that he was born to an anonymous surrogate, however Star claims Jackson’s longtime friend and former employee Pia Bhatti agreed to donate her eggs to the superstar after he learned that her son Omer – a rapper known as O-Bee — was the result of their one night stand in 1984.

“Pia was sworn to secrecy about Blanket. The agreement she had with Michael was that she would never reveal herself to be Blanket’s mom.” "

Omer and Blanket LOOK ALIKE! This is truly wierd... One of the Jackson's brothers says that if he is MJ's son, we will accept him and love him as 3 other kids. Interesting link ... is "Billie Jean" song about Omer?. Concidence?

Omer is seeking a DNA test to see if he is truly MJ's son!

Cheers
T

silentwarrior

07-24-2009, 08:04 PM

tikana

07-26-2009, 09:48 PM

katydid

07-26-2009, 10:59 PM

greets

i have no idea.. maybe there is an agreement between him and mother of his "child"

i cant wait till autopsy report next week

cheers
T

Me too. I am so curious about it now.
I also wonder about the 22 yr old. He looks so very much like Blanket . I hope for his sake he IS Michael's son. I really do. He will likely be devastated if not. Also it would be wonderful for the kids to have an older brother to help them make their way in the world. Their lives seem very confusing right about now. :unsure:

Somwhere I saw the kids birth certificates with the times as well, and i am going to look again and check out their charts.

peacebird

07-29-2009, 09:52 PM

In astrology there are disagreements about what should be considered as one's birth time, - the moment of the first breath, the moment of the first shout, or any other symbolically important event. From our point of view, this question should be solved in another way. The logic of researches shows that we should not take into account the time when a person was born, but the time when his/her horoscope has activated. It means that there is the certain moment of time (not always marked by events) which is a reference point of earthly life of a person. This moment we name the Astrological time of birth; usually it is near the real (registered) time of birth, but, as the practice shows, the difference may be about 20 minutes.

For predictive work it is necessary to define astrological time of birth in order to make all further calculations on its basis. Therefore let's fix frames  20 minutes for the birth time told by the customer and consider that astrological time of birth is somewhere inside these frames. If the real time is not told precisely, only an interval of time is told, then this interval must be increased by 20 minutes both ways, and then we can search astrological time of birth in the whole range.

Having defined the range of search, it is possible to start directly process of correction. Large number of ways of the horoscope rectification are given in the literature on practical astrology, but not all of them are really applicable for this purpose. We have investigated efficiency of some methods, and the results were not favorable. The majority of them give the "percentage of hit" at the level of casual concurrence; talking about efficiency seriously is possible only regarding primary directions. Admittedly, astrological literature not always talks about equatorial arcs, sometimes it means symbolical directions and only to the natal planets. We consider necessary taking into account only equatorial arcs and only to the house beginnings.

Besides, using natal and solar arcs, we can specify the time of birth found with the help of primary directions, and then calculate coordinate of SPE. Having enough of the initial data the time of birth can be defined to degree of 30 seconds, and coordinate of SPE - to 5", that is quite acceptable for the following prediction work.

The process of rectification consists in the following. Knowing astrological time of birth and coordinate of SPE, and having calculated the horoscope, it is possible to predict certain events. But there is also an converse dependence: knowing events (including indirect ones) that have already taken place, it is possible to specify all necessary parameters of the horoscope. In this case for each cardinal event it is necessary to set appropriate equatorial arcs indicating this event, and for each arc - the quantity of degrees on which should be displaced the house network of radix in order that the arc materialization coincides in time with the event. Besides, for each event (not only for cardinal one) natal and solar arcs should be defined, and for them, as well as in the first case - values of house network displacement. Then on the basis of all found values it is necessary to choose the house network displacement for the natal chart and for the solar return chart. It is desirable that as a lot of events as possible (it is better - all ones) are marked by natal, solar and equatorial arcs. As a result, having determined values of displacement, it is easy to calculate time of birth and the coordinate of SPE.

This information is needed for work with the given technique:
1. Date, place and approximate time of person's birth.

2. Month and year of events which may be marked by equatorial arcs.

3. Date and approximate time of events which may be marked by natal or solar arcs.

4. Geographical coordinates of the horoscope owner's location at the moment of the last SPE-conjunctions before the events. It means the events concerning item 3.

We can be sure of the result of rectification only if there are at least three events concerning item 2, and at least seven events concerning item 3. On the other hand, if a lot of events are known, for the rectification we may select only the most important ones from among them, as they are almost always marked by natal, solar or equatorial arcs.

Michael Jackson was born in 29 Aug 1958 in Gary, Indiana, USA
Noel Tyl’s said " I was initially given a time of “after 10:30 PM” by Jackson himself. Subsequent to that, a biography of his life was released, edited by Jackie Onassis, in which it was stated that Jackson was born very late in the evening. My initial rectification of 11:57 PM turned out to be just four minutes late; the actual time of 11:53 PM was confirmed by a Jackson representative whom I had occasion to meet."
And i think that is right and i think he was born at 23 PM ,his ascendant must be Gemini and there is more things in his chart Indicate that it should be born at 23 PM

Now i will correct his birthtime moment but i need more information about his life Month, year, Date and approximate time of events .... so any body here can help and also i need to know the date of birth of Omar Bhatti

[topic is about Michael Jackson's birth chart so moved to Michael Jackson chart thread - Moderator]

Claire19

08-25-2009, 01:42 AM

Now it seems he was murdered. The Sun conjunct Pluto in the 4th house would probably be most appropriate.

Claire19

08-25-2009, 01:48 AM

Do you see anything in his chart which would indicate that he would/ could mollest a child? You mention a confusion about his "maleness", but what about this aspect? Is it more than sexual confusion? Does he "love" little boys? It seems to me that his Peter Pan-ness might even take it to the extreme that he would relate to a child as a child would play, say, doctor with another child. Not as an adult would mollest a child, but as one child would sexually experiment with another. Does anyone see this in his chart?

Maries
Venus in connection with Uranus always gives unconventional love interests, sometimes it is homosexual but not always. He was very feminine. It seems he did not biologically father any children. I dont imagine he would be aggressively abusive but he may have been gently persuasive in his tactics and in the spirit of play. He did pay millions of dollars to the parents of a supposedly abused boy.......whatever, he was not normal in the sexual department and that is for sure. A very strange person.

tikana

08-25-2009, 01:48 AM

Well ... Claire..
it is not premeditative case... the doctor was giving propofol and 2 other painkillers that stopped MJ's resperatory system.
The Jacksons have been screaming Murder from day 1.. but MJ was addicted to pain killers.

This is from yahoo news... "Jason Hymes, an assistant clinical professor at the University of Southern California who is not associated with the case, said the drug was a true anesthetic. "You administer it to somebody and then operate on them ... This concept of giving somebody a general anesthetic for sleep disturbance strikes me as just bizarre and astoundingly inappropriate."

if this goes to court, the doctor might get a lot less than what prosecution is seeking... attorneys would be beating the drums that MJ was already an addict and he was familiar with Propofol..

it is just sad

T

Claire19

08-25-2009, 01:51 AM

Dear Tikana, I saw that also. The pic I saw, yes he was in line withe the other family members, I really thought it was Michael!! So I too think there might be something there. But one thought, why would he hide him, he is almost a carbon copy. thanks:pouty::biggrin:
Yes why would he hide him??? Except for the notoriety and the media exposure maybe. It may have been the boy's idea or his advisors. He may have contributed his sperm and that boy may well be his son, but not in the normal way I would suggest. However it seems he was part of the family and may have been seen but gone unnoticed.

Claire19

08-25-2009, 01:54 AM

Courtney

logically the chart should show a child
5th house is own child
11th is adopted

either way, an apperance of a child should show up in a chart

T
NOt necessarily, adoption can show up in the 5th house with Uranus or Neptune there. The 5th denotes the raising and education of children, not necessarily biologically your own but treated as such. I dont see the connection with the 11th.....

Exoteric Astrology

08-25-2009, 01:58 AM

tikana

08-25-2009, 07:34 AM

NOt necessarily, adoption can show up in the 5th house with Uranus or Neptune there. The 5th denotes the raising and education of children, not necessarily biologically your own but treated as such. I dont see the connection with the 11th.....

adopted children are classified as step children
http://books.google.com/books?id=0OJgX88KKMsC&pg=PA55&dq=adopted+children+astrology#v=onepage&q=&f=false
right on top

T

Claire19

08-26-2009, 07:18 AM

I'm a bit suspicious about his birth time. There are many things that fit and why not, but then there are some things that make me wonder. Mostly about his appearance. He has obviously had lots of plastic surgery, so it is hard to judge what his face would look like in reality. For some reason Gemini ascendant and plastic surgery don't go together in my head but maybe that's just me. He is also relatively short or average height (5'9) and Gemini's are supposed to be rather tall. Small things... but make you wonder.

wilsontc, a bit off-topic - sorry for that, but how about a square between Jupiter and Pluto?
Nothing about his appearance suggests Gemini rising to me. Looking at his younger photos it looks more Piscean. I believe though that it is Leo and having Aquarius on the 7th, with unconventional and quirky relationships i.e. Lisa Marie Presley is an Aquarian for instance. The ruler then is in Virgo, another youthful sign. He may have had some quirks about hygiene and health, also clothing and food rituals......I dont know.

I think he was an overrated talent and the almost hero worship of this person seems quite strange to me.

Exoteric Astrology

09-13-2009, 04:04 PM

I've been working on a multi-part series blog about investigating Michael's birth time. The first four parts are already online (1 (http://celebrityastrologyblog.com/2009/08/10/michael-jackson-lives-investigating-his-birth-time-introduction-and-synastry/), 2 (http://celebrityastrologyblog.com/2009/08/11/michael-jackson-lives-investigating-his-birth-time-1961-1969/), 3 (http://celebrityastrologyblog.com/2009/08/13/michael-jackson-lives-investigating-his-birth-time-1970-1974/), 4 (http://celebrityastrologyblog.com/2009/08/18/michael-jackson-lives-investigating-his-birth-time-1975-1979/)) and I'll be posting the rest soon.

Nick

The series continues with part 5 (http://celebrityastrologyblog.com/2009/08/29/michael-jackson-lives-investigating-his-birth-time-1980-1984/) and part 6 (http://celebrityastrologyblog.com/2009/09/10/michael-jackson-lives-investigating-his-birth-time-1985-1989/).

I'll be posting the remaining five chapters soon.

siren

10-02-2009, 01:07 PM

Can't wait to read more

blacksun?

10-26-2009, 04:19 PM

It looks like MJ's moon opposes his Sun/Pluto, which should be enough to explain his dissatisfaction with his own appearance. His will (sun/pluto both) is in opposition to his body/self awareness (moon). This would also explain why he would hide children and parts of his life.

I think his chart is powered-to-fame by the fact that this problematic moon forms a quintile with his Mars. I would interpret this to mean that his very powerful problems with his self-image and feelings find a magical outlet to action, masculine-power type action to be specific. It is nicely shown in how sensitive and childlike he was as a sexual icon.

He also has an even tighter quintile from Venus to Jupiter, which accounts for his incredible flair as well as his dramatic changes in luck. (Quintile driven charts aren't just powerful, they are also dangerous. Sometimes life really runs away with these people, it seems they can be puppets of fate).

Qua ascendant my guess would be the first degrees of scorpio, with Neptune right on it. The transformation issue with Scorpio and the imagination and dissociation element of Neptune in it seems pretty much a perfect fit for his wondrous, strange, intense, ever changing appearance.

Jupiter would fall in his 12th house then, which is in line with the fact that his success and vision resonated deeply into the collective consciousness. Midheaven would fall in Leo, a good fit to his open pride and ambition. And incidentally, if I´m not mistaken asc. 3 Scorpio would also make for a quintile Mars-Midheaven, also indicating a swift rise to fame.