Chiron as Ruler of Taurus?

[divine g]

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[katydid]

!st sign, Aries, ruled by MARS= male energy, warrior, Adam, which is then followed by
Taurus, which is female energy, eve, fecundity, essence of feminity, which is ruled by CHIRON?

[divine g]

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[katydid]

Not familiar with the Adam and Eve link to astrology, but I'll work with it. At the same token, Venus is feminine, but also rules the positive, masculine sign of Libra.

Think of it as one person trying to be in 2 different places at the same time. It's alot of work. Venus definitely fits Taurus, but possibly would give it up if a better fit came along.

Im not saying Chiron is a better fit, Im seeing if it possibly could be with the help of some brainstorming by others..

One more thing, I wouldnt say the bull-headed and determined Taurus is the essence of feminity. Libra is much more graceful, although I admire Taurus' strength. But the Taurus women I know have pretty strong, dare I say masculine qualities..

ok, so by your system, venus would lose it's feminine rulership, and have only a masculine one. That does not sound right to me. :wink:
I really think it will take a lot to pry Venus away from it's rulership of taurus.
Maybe you have met some pretty masculine Taurus's, but that hasnt really been my experience overall. Earthy, and grounded, but not too many have been masculine. Did you check to see if your taurus friends had Aries personals? :sideways:

I could see a strong correlation between Chiron and Virgo, but between Chiron and Taurus, not so much. That's just my opinion. of course, being a Taurus rising, with Jupiter there, I can say I have some internal connection to the question. Do I feel like Chiron is my chart ruler? No, not really. I think Venus in Sag in the 8th is my chart ruler. And you will have to work hard to pry it away from me too. :devil:

[unusual_suspect]

ok, so by your system, venus would lose it's feminine rulership, and have only a masculine one. That does not sound right to me. :wink:
I really think it will take a lot to pry Venus away from it's rulership of taurus.
Maybe you have met some pretty masculine Taurus's, but that hasnt really been my experience overall. Earthy, and grounded, but not too many have been masculine. Did you check to see if your taurus friends had Aries personals? :sideways:




I often think of Taurus as being more Venusy than Libra, maybe it's beacuse I know too many Librans too well :wink:

[divine g]

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[katydid]

It sounds more like Chiron would be EXALTED in Taurus. But ruling it seems incorrect. Venus IS the natural ruler and does not seem in any way , incongruent with that rulership.

[divine g]

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[Frank]

Just as I said in the Chiron ruling Virgo thread:

Take 100 successfully delineated horary charts where Taurus is either the sign on the cusp of the Querent or the Quested and see if the chart works with Chiron as the significator. It's rather simple really. If it works just as well as (or better than) Venus did, then one might have proven the point.

[unusual_suspect]

divine g, I think your Chiron theory is really interesting and I can see where you are coming from although I don't necessarily agree 100% with it.

Astrology is a funny thing there is a lot to be said for direct experience as well as book learning, I think it is something you do rather than learn to a degree and like everything it is growing and evolving, it is great to keep an open mind on everything and back it up with your own direct experience, keep it fresh :smile:

Edit - both my parents are Librans and they are not all sweetness and light, actually, I know a lot of Librans who I personally find very rude and abrasive. I often wonder if it is a coincidence that the opposite sign is Aries and this is expressed in the shadow side of Libra, it is still a cardinal sign. As for my dad - he has a way with words and really knows how to offend, yet he does have that innate sense of fair play that you would expect with a Libra, he also seems to be unable to make a descision as he has to analyse every possible outcome before finally deciding to do what he was going to do in the first place anyway aaaarrrrrggh! But this is an air sign trait, my boyfriend is a Gemini and my son is an Aquarius so I am constantly surrounded by these sort of capers!

Taureans I have known often have a slower sensual quality about them, enoying the finer things in life, food, clothes, good times; and they seem a lot less glib than Librans and generally warmer, I personally think this is very Venusian.

[divine g]

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[gaer]

This is a concept that comes up again and again:

Which system are you going to use?

Traditionally the Sun and Moon were each connected with one sign. All other planets were linked to two, and moving out, all the other planets were connected with one masculine and one feminine sign.

There is an appealing symmetry to the traditional rulerships, and a balance.

The moment that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were given rulership over Aquarius, Pisces and Scorpio, it left only two sets left out of the old system. So Libra and Taurus have to share Venus, Gemini and Virgo have to share Mercury.

It's the change to "new rulerships" that has left us with a very odd "mix and match" system.

That's where the whole debate started about trying to "straighten everything out". Those who have partially abandoned the old system are trying to creat a new one, with one planet and one planet only assigned to each sign. Or one sign assigned to each planet. Or asteroid. :)

The problem is that if Chiron is treated as a "planet", and the Quartet is treated as a set of four "planets", you have "planets" left over in addition to trying to figure out where to put them.

I have seen Vesta, Pallas and Ceres all suggested as candidates for Taurus, Gemini, Virgo and even Libra.

I'm inclined to take the word of people who specialize in horary, who generally find that the "new rulerships" do not give reliable results. :)

[divine g]

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[katydid]

but to be fair, D, you just said that you have never ever done a horary before. So excuse me if I question your ability to decide which planet makes the most relevant significator, especially in your own EMOTIONALLY LADEN QUESTION.:pinched::whistling:

This experiment described by Frank would have to be a double blind type experiment, using outcomes that we know the correct answer to as well.

[Niplan]

[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

[divine g]

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[gaer]

The part of me that likes things to be neat and simple would like to see each sign linked to its own planet.

Unfortunately, our solar system seems unwilling to cooperate. ;)

Seriously, I think this is yet another example of why it is important to study the history of astrology, to find out where principles came from, and when.

At first glance, seeing two signs linked to the same planet seems arbitrary and confusing if you start with the acceptance of modern rulerships only.

Why Mercury for both Gemini and Virgo
Why Venus for both Libra and Taurus?
But then you see:
Mars for Aries and Scorpio
Jupiter for Pisces and Sagittarius
Saturn for Aquarius and Capricorn

Always a masculine and feminine sign, plus a logical and easily understandable pattern.

I think its very important to understand that first, because then it becomes apparently that using "co-rulerships" is a very tricky business.

[katydid]

If you follow the traditional rules of horary, you would be Jupiter and the ex would be Mercury. The question of cheating is usually seen in the 12th, and turning the chart for the ex, that would bring you to the 6th. Venus rules the 6th in this chart, and is in Cancer, conjunct the POF. Sounds

If we used your new rulership theory, we would then look at Chiron, in the 2nd, in Aquarius, conjunct the moon and neptune.

Those 2 things sound really different imo. Which one is correct?

[divine g]

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[gaer]

Sorry Katydid, your response here is confusing, what are you asking?
I don't think she is really asking anything. I believe Katy is pointing out that when you change rulerships the way the chart is read will totally change, giving you two totally different answers.

In natal work everything tends to be very "blurry", meaning that we aren't asking yes/no questions. In horary, the rules are much more strict, or well-defined. Changing something like rulership is going to change so much that you will start getting to answers to many questions. :)

[divine g]

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[katydid]

Ok, well Venus is in th 7th, not the 6th. I see what you're saying about the different answers, we would try both and see what works.

If Venus ruled the cusp of the 5th Taurus, and Venus is in 7th, conjunct POF, that would be fortunate, right? However, if we put Chiron as the ruler, and we see it in the 2nd house of self-worth, conjunct Moon, Jupiter, Neptune, that kind of shows the wounding(and hopefully subsequent healing) of my self-esteem from a woman in my life. The Neptune shows a bit of deception or mystery surrounding this woman, but the Jupiter shows a growth and learning experience..

Both seem to work, but for some reason, I felt it to be more of a painful romance than the perfect easygoing romance that Venus in 7th suggests. It was a bit of both, but more painful than beautiful in the end..

But you were asking a yes or no question, IF your ex gf cheated.
In one delineation, we use Venus, and find it in the 7th in cancer conjunct the POF. Sounds like she was emotionally faithful and fortunate.
In the 'new' way of delineating, the significator would be Chiron, in the 2nd, sandwiched Moon and Neptune in Aquarius. To me, that is less convincing of her faithfulness, being conjunct moon and neptune in Aquarius. To me, that is a wholly different answer than the one that Venus gives. :unsure:

[divine g]

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[katydid]

Divine,
'
You are doing the same thing that I USED to do when trying to read horary charts. I know why and how you are getting there. But according to all of the experts, who are amazingly successful at answering questions ,which are 100% verifiable at some point, you CANNOT use the outer planets, nor can you read the planets that do not DIRECTLY signify your one yes or no answer. Other aspects and placements are SUPERFLUOUS to the yes/no question.

[divine g]

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[katydid]

The reality is, you and i are both total novices when it comes to horary, and I think we can both admit that.:wink: So nothing will come from pursuing the original discussion too far down this road. My only point initially was that changing the ruler of Taurus from Venus to Chiron is a HUGE shake up.
Frank seems to be correct in his assertion that a horary experiment can be done to verify true rulerships. It takes way more than this one about your ex gf.

[divine g]

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[Claire19]

I tend to agree that Taurus belongs with Earth. I think rulers need to be planets and CHiron is not that. That it has some relationship to Virgo I can see perhaps......

[katydid]

Claire,
I agree with you. I can easily see the EARTH as the ruler ofTaurus. easily. And at least it is a planet. lol

And Taurus's are sometimes rather self centered, so that fits.

[piscesascendant]

I thought Chiron was associated with Virgo (another earth sign) and Venus ruled Taurus (along with Libra), since Chiron was about wounds and healing and Virgo deals with health.

[divine g]

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[gaer]

I just found it odd that Mercury could rule both an air sign and earth sign, and how Venus can rule 2 different elements also.

Just remember, tradionally, that Mars rules Aries and Scorpio
Jupiter rules Sagittarius and Pices
Saturn rules Capricorn and Aquarius

So all planets other than Sun/Moon traditionally ruled a masculine and feminine sign.

[divine g]

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[CJN]

. I think rulers need to be planets and CHiron is not that.

What Claire said, Chiron is not a planet. It's orbit is not even stable.
We have more planets, dwarf planets, and asteroids than we have signs. Why should Chiron deserve rulership of anything, when there are bigger objects that don't have rulerships?

[divine g]

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[lillyjgc]

Folks,
I use Chiron in Natal delineations so I am not opposed to involving *planets* or asteroids or comets or whatever, per se.
However: Chiron was only properly identified in 1977 (by Charles Kowal) so I wonder if we actually have studied it long enough to fully understand exactly what Chiron *means*.
It was in Taurus when identified and to me that's not sufficient reason to link it to Taurus in terms of its domicile (if in fact it has one).Initially it was classified by astronomers as a centaur.As of 2005, there are 61+ known centaurs.
In the 80's a coma was observed around Chiron, and it was considered to be a comet for a while.However, being over 50,000 times the volume of a comet, it was eligible to be considered an asteroid.And the debate raged amongst astronomers as to how Chiron should be classified.
It's still going on, with some regarding it as a planetoid, some a comet, some a centaur and some an asteroid.
As we have only had just over 30 years to study and observe Chiron, perhaps it's too early to be assigning rulerships to a space body about which we know so little.
In 1992, pholus was discovered and called *son of Chiron*.
Chiron came to perihelion (closest point to the Sun) in 1996.

If we were to single out Chiron from all the other asteroids and comets, and assign rulerships to it, as if it were a star or a planet, on what astrological basis would we do this? We have so little knowledge about its effect on us and there are many *interpretations* based on the mythology surrounding centaurs, which, as we know, is only a fragment of the whole consideration- useful information but not enough in itself.
By observing the influences of transits to our natal chiron and aspects made by transiting chiron, we can gain a much broader understanding of how Chiron really works in our charts.
Some refer to Chiron as the *wound that cannot heal*, and others see Chiron as *the healer within.*Some regard Chiron as the harbinger of illness, others see it as the *physician who must first heal himself*> Others don't think it has any affect whatsoever. Certainly astrologers are not in agreement about Chiron's influence.
Whilst I look at Chiron in horary charts, I probably wouldn't treat it as a major influence.However, I consider it very closely in natal charts.
It's interesting that this topic is on the Boards at the time Chiron is caught up in the conjunction with jupiter and neptune. Almost everyone I know has had some serious healing issue to deal with.
To return to Chiron's potential association with Taurus though-I just don't see a connection between Taurus and Chiron.
I can see a relationship though between Chiron and Saturn as health can be very much tied up with saturn.
I also see a potential relationship between jupiter and chiron..

Personally though, I am quite enamoured of the balance that the traditional rulerships give us as they are.I have found they work-whereas with Chiron I think we are still in the research phase.
Cheers
lillyjgc

[divine g]

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[CJN]

Do you know how to read cjn? I suggest you read what I write before asking [disrespectful remark deleted! moderator] questions.

So, you avoid the question, and resort to Ad Hominem. Nowhere have you addressed the question on why we should overlook bigger planets when assigning rulership. If you claim that two planets can rule one sign, then why did you post:

So as the discovery of
Pluto replaced Mars for Scorpio,
Neptune replaced Jupiter for Pisces, and
Uranus replaced Saturn for Aquarius,

so the discovery of Chiron may soon replace one of the traditional rulers for Taurus or Virgo.

?

[divine g]

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[CJN]

It's not about size of the planet, or asteroid etc., it's about its impact. Im simply part of the school of thought that has experienced Chiron's impact, and I've gone into plenty of detail in all my posts here.


Good, now we're getting somewhere. Now we have to find the two 'planets' with most impact. I see your Chiron and raise with Eris.


I did not say a planet can't rule 2 signs, I'm asking if it's really logical for a planet to rule 2 signs of different elements. If a case were to be made for one planet ruling two different signs, then let them at least be of the same element.


I disagree, but this would be sidetracking.


So Taurus and Virgo are the last 2 signs that don't have their own ruler, and through meditation and experience of Chiron being major in my chart, I'm simply proposing that it may rule one or the other, or both. I'm open to any logical holes in my theory if you have any. But so far, as someone who respects Barbara Hand Clow as an authority on Chiron, and wrote a book on it, I have witnessed firsthand its affinity with Virgo. It's only very recently I felt it may have something to do with Taurus, and I'm willing to spark debate to advance our knowledge of astrology in general.


Disagree about Taurus. IMO Venus rule Taurus, and Libra is the one without ruler. I can give you exaltation in Taurus, due to the restful nature of Taurus would promote healing.


I think I was very logical in showing how the traditional rulerships of Scorpio, Pisces, and Aquarius changed with time, and how in time, the traditional rulers of Taurus and Virgo may change, so the astrologer's community can come to an agreement. So I know this is a very radical viewpoint, but it's based on logic and intuition, and a real-life experience of the effect of Chiron in a chart. Im not trying to dictate what's right here, Im open to a democratic, and diplomatic brainstorming of progressive, like-minded astrologers who are willing to push the envelope of what we know already.


Except, that there's no consensus yet on if Scorpio, Pisces and Aquarius are ruled by two or one planet. BTW, your use of the word traditional in the paragraph above will most likely upset traditional astrologers.


Im a huge supporter of the scientific method, so I just asked the question, and proposed a hypothesis. Im now gathering data that can support it. All that we can do now is record our observations with real charts, natal, progressed, and horary, and share with each other whether this theory can work. Just know, Im not here dictating it as law, Im just as curious to see if Im right or wrong and Im open to suggestions.

Here's a suggestion if you try Chiron of different signs, also try other 'planets', especially Ceres. Also try Chiron-Sagittarius, which has also been proposed.

[gaer]

That's the point Gaer, things change..especially in this modern day and age, traditions become old and outdated.

So as the discovery of
Pluto replaced Mars for Scorpio,
Neptune replaced Jupiter for Pisces, and
Uranus replaced Saturn for Aquarius,

so the discovery of Chiron may soon replace one of the traditional rulers for Taurus or Virgo. These are the only 2 signs left in the zodiac that dont have their own ruler. We are in a whole new millenium, this is definitely a time to let some old traditions go..
http://www.astrologycom.com/rulership.html
Here Chiron is given co-rulerhip of sagittarius. Pluto, Neptune and Uranus were given co-rulership by most "modern" astrologers. They did not replace the original rulerships.

So already we have people arguing for Chiron as co-rulers of three signs: Sagittarius, Virgo and Taurus. To me it looks like a mess. :)

[Claire19]

ok, so by your system, venus would lose it's feminine rulership, and have only a masculine one. That does not sound right to me. :wink:
I really think it will take a lot to pry Venus away from it's rulership of taurus.
Maybe you have met some pretty masculine Taurus's, but that hasnt really been my experience overall. Earthy, and grounded, but not too many have been masculine. Did you check to see if your taurus friends had Aries personals? :sideways:

I could see a strong correlation between Chiron and Virgo, but between Chiron and Taurus, not so much. That's just my opinion. of course, being a Taurus rising, with Jupiter there, I can say I have some internal connection to the question. Do I feel like Chiron is my chart ruler? No, not really. I think Venus in Sag in the 8th is my chart ruler. And you will have to work hard to pry it away from me too. :devil:

Chiron may have connection to Virgo perhaps??? but we must remember that it is not a planet and therefore doesnt rule anything. I feel that with Venus as co ruler, Earth could be ruled by Taurus. Venus rules the material assets and talents to acquire them from the 2nd house and yin, the earthly goods that Taurus represents but if we were living on Mars what would we say that Earth rules??

That we are largely a materialistic planet is true.

[Claire19]

So, you avoid the question, and resort to Ad Hominem. Nowhere have you addressed the question on why we should overlook bigger planets when assigning rulership. If you claim that two planets can rule one sign, then why did you post:


?

Good comment. We must always concentrate on our solar system planets for influence as that is where we live. I have a problem with using co rulers at all. I feel that the proper ruler of Virgo has yet to be assigned, perhaps Vulcan...????? and we use Mercury for now but that may in the future be consigned to a co ruler. Also Taurus probably doesnt have its proper ruler and it could be Earth after all with Venus co ruling.......

CHiron is not a planet and may only be a comet, asteroid or some such.
By all means use it but in conjunction with the valid planets.

[Claire19]

I thought Chiron was associated with Virgo (another earth sign) and Venus ruled Taurus (along with Libra), since Chiron was about wounds and healing and Virgo deals with health.
Chiron's myth is about the wounded healer who cannot heal himself but can heal others of the type of wound he has. He relies on others to heal him. This is what I understand. I am not a great advocate of Chiron but dont dismiss it entirely.

Virgo has connection through the 6th house with health, diet and hygiene the proper use of which leads to healing particularly of the intestinal tract. Alternative therapies such as herbalism and use of plants etc as Virgo is an Earth sign and in everyday ritual and service.

[divine g]

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[divine g]

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[flea]

There have been a few threads on chiron's rulership I have read...... none of them have really fitte with me....chiron is quite a presence in my chart and i have ponderd its significance. I am coming to the idea of chiron as a key to unlock a planet or a sign. The glyph itself is a key, and i dont think there is a sign that can be thought of as unlocking the rest. It really depends on your chart.

I also work with both trad and modern rulers, both sytems can work to give you a strong story. I love the symmetry of the traditional that gives every planet a masculine and feminine sign to express through. There really works with the part of me that loves a bit of yin and yang. But then the modern rulers gives such a depth of understanding that is so relevant to today.....uranus and the electromagnetic body, pluto and depth psychology, neptune and the ideas of the emotional and feeling body somehow related to phemonenology. It makes sense of our new discovereies and inventions.

And Taurus people I know have so expressed a venusian ideal in so many ways for me... I have never felt any overt pain from them.

FleaXXX

[gaer]

There have been a few threads on chiron's rulership I have read...... none of them have really fitte with me....chiron is quite a presence in my chart and i have ponderd its significance. I am coming to the idea of chiron as a key to unlock a planet or a sign. The glyph itself is a key, and i dont think there is a sign that can be thought of as unlocking the rest. It really depends on your chart.

I think we might get someplace much more useful by thinking about where the traditional planets are powerful, and why, then applying the same principle to Chiron and the Quartet.

We know why Mars is powerful in Aries and Scorpio. It has always been easy for me to remember that Mars is exalted in Capricorn because it simply seems like common sense. I would even argue that it is strongest there. The patience and determination of Capricorn give Mars the power to take as much time as it needs to build.

So for Chiron the trick would be to figure out where it works most effectively, where it is most at home. This does not necessitate giving it rulership, but it does suggest that it will be most ineffective in signs opposite its greatest power.

For traditional planets, most are at home in a sign that is sextile (by sign) the their exalation.

The Sun, Jupiter, Saturn, trine:

Sun: Leo, Aries
Jupiter: Pisces, Cancer
Saturn: Aquarius, Libra

Sextile:

Moon, Cancer, Taurus
Venus, Taurus, Pisces
Mars, Scorpio, Capricorn

So the idea of linking Chiron to two signs of the same element (Virgo, Taurus), is not strange.

But also square (as with Mercury): Virgo, Sagittarius.

The trick is this: if Chiron is the wounded healer, what energy (or energies) would it use most effectively to heal?

[divine g]

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[flea]

hmmmm self love and being grounded in the body are kind of prerequisites to healing....things that remind me deeply of taurus??

There is another thing I have pondered. Pluto can be said to be a higher vibration of mars, neptune of venus, and uranus of saturn......does this still hold, and what would chiron be a higher vibration of???

And what is a higher vibration of jupiter?? Should that really make neptune a higher vibration of jupiter than venus.... seeing as it rules pisces and displaced jupiter??

FleaXX

[gaer]

hmmmm self love and being grounded in the body are kind of prerequisites to healing....things that remind me deeply of taurus??

There is another thing I have pondered. Pluto can be said to be a higher vibration of mars, neptune of venus, and uranus of saturn......does this still hold, and what would chiron be a higher vibration of???

And what is a higher vibration of jupiter?? Should that really make neptune a higher vibration of jupiter than venus.... seeing as it rules pisces and displaced jupiter??

FleaXX
I'm smiling a little because the result of taking any system and trying to make the system rule, rather than just go with intuition, often resulults in a system that is logical but does not work, or a system that seesm to work but defies logic. :)

There are lots of ways to link planets:

Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Pluto (power)
Moon, Venus, Neptune (emotions, expression, intuition)
Mercury, Uranus (logic, patterns, thought)

Saturn shows how impossible it is to go too far with this. As ruler of Capricorn more about limitations, conservative, structure, but in Aquarius more likely to RE-structure (create new definitions, new boundaries, so paradoxically linked to freedom).

All the above groups are simplistic and break down when considering nuances. Even connecting Uranus to Aquarius (as co-ruler or at least most aligned with that sign) highlights the contrast with Mercury (Gemini), emphasis on flexibility. Flexibility and freedom sometimes work together, other times are opposed to each other.

I would personally prefer keeping the classical or traditional rulerships, with the more recently discovered planets and asteriods (and so on) used for "color". I don't want to de-emphasize their importance. My chart makes no sense when Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are not included, for instance.

[flea]

I like the idea of havnig a base of traditional rulers, and the transpersonals being a bit looser in interpretation. I do llike seeing the planets being seen through both a feminine sign and a masculine sign.... the pattern is just cool

FleaXXX

[Claire19]

I often think of Taurus as being more Venusy than Libra, maybe it's beacuse I know too many Librans too well :wink:
First of all Chiron is not a planet, so cannot be the proper ruler of any of our zodiacal signs. It may well be connected but it could only be a comet at the end of the day.

I think Taurus is connected to Earth and this could be the real ruler. If we were living on Mars what would we say Earth was ruler of???

Well, being very Venusian myself with Moon in Taurus and a stellium in Libra perhaps Taurus is the yin side of Venus the morning star,and Libra the yang side, the evening star. Perhaps Venus will be relegated to co ruler one day, of Taurus....which is earthy and materialistic and into physical pleasures. Very much the expression of our planet.

[Claire19]

Uranus is the proper ruler of Aquarius and I dont even use Saturn in connection with it. It is the new, the upsetting of the status quo, the sudden and shocking. It the future and the state of humanity and its rights.
The brotherhood.. Fraternal.

Saturn as ruler of Capricorn is the very antithesis, being proper, abiding by the rules, the past, cautious and conservative. Restricted and narrow.
The fatherhood. Paternal.

[Claire19]

I think the higher vibration of Mercury is sometimes put as Uranus. I dont see Uranus as being the higher vibration of Saturn which is transpersonal, only the personal planets have a higher octave in my belief. Chiron is not a planet and I wish people would stop treating it as it has that importance or status. The Sun and Moon have no higher octave either.

[divine g]

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[Frank]

...just like Uranus took over Aquarius, however upsetting it was to smaller minds at the time.

Referring to those who prefer the Classical rulerships as having "smaller minds" might be counter-productive to your arguments.

A more productive tack might be to actually test the efficacy of Classical and Modern rulerships objectively through horary test cases - as I and others have suggested numerous times.

[divine g]

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[Frank]

A sample size of one hardly proves the point.

Especially when the chart is cast and examined after the hypothesis is put forward. There is a huge chance for bias in any test conducted in that manner.

[divine g]

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[divine g]

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[Frank]

1. I do not believe the question(s) is valid for horary. A horary question should be born at its own time - NOT when the concept of horary is being discussed and a question pops into one's mind. I never asked a relationship question anyway - you did.

2. You've used the 5th House for a relationship question. Since upthread you state that you are studying William Lilly's description of the Houses, perhaps we should review his text from Book I of "Christian Astrology" (in the Public Domain):

"The Fifth House.

By this house we judge of Children, of Embassadours, of the state of a Woman with child, of Banquets, of Ale-houses, Tavernes, Playes, Messengers or Agents for Republick; of the wealth of the Father, the Ammunition of a Town beseiged; if the Woman with child shall bring forth male or female; of the health or sicknesse of his Son or Daughter that asks the Question.

It ruleth the Stomack, Liver, Heart, Sides and Back, and is masculine.

Of Colours, Black and White, or Honey—colour, and is a Succedant house; It’s Cosignificators are Leo and Venus, who doth joy in this house, in regard it’s the house of Pleasure, Delight and Merriment; it’s wholly unfortunate by Mars or Saturn, and they therein shew disobedient children and untoward."


No mention of love affairs, relationships, etc., it seems.

Now let's look at what he says for the:

"The Seventh House.

It giveth judgment of Marriage, and describes the person inquired after, whether it be Man or Woman, all manner of Love questions, our publique enemies; the Defendant in a Law—suit, in Warre the opposing party; all quarrels, Duels, Law—suits; in Astrology the Artist himself; in Physick the Physitian; Theeves and Thefts; the person stealing, whether Man or Woman, Wives, Sweetharts; their shape, description, condition, Nobly or ignobly born: in an Annuall ingresse, whether Warre or Peace may be expected: of Victory, who over-comes, and who worsted; Fugitives or run­awayes; Banished and Out—lawed—men.

It hath cosignificator Libra and Moon, Saturn or Mars unfortunate herein, shew ill in Marriage.
Of Colour, a dark Blacke colour.

It ruleth the Haunches, and the Navill to the Buttocks; and is called the Angle of the West: and is Masculine."


So it seems that when you attempted to delineate the chart, you began from a completely incorrect premise - that it was a 5th House question which has Taurus as the sign on the 5th cusp and your supposed "ruler" of the Quested was Chiron. When in fact the significator of the Quested is Mercury, because Gemini is on the 7th House cusp.

First principles. If you wish to use a technique to support your argument, you should know how to apply that technique.

Good luck with your studies.

[lillyjgc]

divine g,
I looked at your chart too- It really does not prove a thing. I agree with Frank here on both matters: firstly a sample of one is insignificant and when the correct houses are used, it does not substantiate anything.
We all know Chiron is to do with out *wounds*..your romance question pertained more to that. If we are wounded in our self esteem (moon in h2 in chart) then we cant trust others so well.
Just because Chiron can be interpreted in regard to a love/fidelity question doesn't automatically make it rule of Taurus..where's the logic?
In the chart you are jupiter, retrograde in your second house of self worth.The quesited is ruled by Mercury (not Venus) and the moon is in Saturn's sign so I fail to see any reason for the conclusions you have reached.
How could a comet/asteroid have rulership over a planet, I wonder.
Lilly

[divine g]

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[Frank]

divine g,

Thank you for your reasonable and dispassionate reply. May you get all the that you deserve out of life.

[divine g]

**********************

[Frank]

So my question about 2 ex girl-friends(friends=fun) still deals with the 5th....

...I only stated that it seems to be a big coincidence that, when you place Chiron as ruler, it works MUCH better than it would Venus, because these weren't happy, harmonious romances, but painful ones.


Quod erat demonstrandum.

[Northstar10]

I like the idea of Earth being the true power of Taurus, being a Taurus myself. And Chiron is all about Taurus in my own chart, being that I have Chiron in Taurus too. But I don't see that chiron is the true ruler of Taurus. If anything it might be Virgo. Chiron is the wounded healer, and Virgo is more especially about healing. Taurus is a healer in a way, but so are all the signs when they are working in a good way. Taurus is concerned with wealth, but not just wealth for the sake of gluttony and avarice. Taurus is concerned with sustainable wealth, in a world that endures the tests of time. I've always considered Taurus the most Earthy of the Earth signs, because both are so stable and solid, though there are fears that the Earth is not as fixed as we'd like it to be. I like the idea of Taurus being the ruler of the Earth, er Earth being the ruler of Taurus.

[divine g]

*****************************

[Northstar10]

Taurus is most primarily concerned with the material world, and it is a material reality. The earth is especially material, and anybody who exists is materialistic, though there is a real spiritual dimension to the material world that Taurus people tend to ignore. Capricorn is more dedicated to awakening the spirituality of material things, being the sign that seeks to unite the heights and the depths of experience-- spirit and matter. What is sometimes overlooked about materialism is the power and value inherent in material substance. Every material thing has a power and sacredness to it. Even the bullsh*t makes the flowers grow, and that's beautiful.

The wound of Taurus is the feeling that there's lack in a world of plenty. The top five percent of the world has billions of dollars while billions of people starve. People throw away more than enough food to feed everybody. Not to mention that the end of the world is nigh, but Taurus knows that matter never dies. Taurus is the time when we can hear the rhythm of eternity, opposite of fatalistic Scorpio mortals. The world goes round and round to no end.

[pandanusblue]

Divine G,

Yes, you are definitely not one with whom to mess. Your subtle intellect and great feel for the energies place you higher above any else. But let's get realistic:

Liz Greene argues against considering Chiron at all; Arroyo never mentions it either. Chiron can reveal something, I'm sure. But to obsessively associate it with 'pain' and 'healing' is wrong. Quite a few of the planets can be associated with these human attributes. Just because you had an intuition, it does not follow that that intuition is even remotely correct. Most astrologers, those gifted for it anyway, are naturally intuitive and have flashes of insight (uranus) night and day. One intuition does not make you special.

Chiron is, as someone suggested, a new entrant to our solar system. Furthermore, it will not remain within our solar system. It cannot rule Taurus. Nor is music, as you assert, under the governance of Taurus. Music can be associated with many different planets, signs and aspects. I suggest you read Donna Cunningham's work, along with that of Greene and Arroyo. You have a long way to go yet.

Your original supposition that Chiron may rule Taurus was an interesting one. But that's all.


[Moderator note - personal and non-astrological comments deleted. Please be topic-focused not person-focused.]

[divine g]

***************

[pandanusblue]

[deleted comments that strayed from the astrological into the personal - Moderator Note: Please do not use astrology as a way to insult or put down others. Keep all discussions focused on the astrological topic not on the personality of the posters.]

[pandanusblue]

In order to keep this friendly and intellectual, I propose a dual research project. I am interested in linking Aries to Pluto. If you research this for me, I will undertake your Taurus/Chiron project. This way, we can both research objectively.

[flea]

hmmmm interesting. Now being a sag and them being known for being terriblly diplomatic (true and not true) I have considered taurus being co ruled by chiron. However it makes eminent sense that it is really the co ruler of sagittarius.... both being of the centaur persuasion. There is something about the inner child when I think about centuars and their ability to laugh and party.... causing havoc too no doubt. Anyway back to the inner child stufff.... no one knows how to laugh like a child...... and laughing is the best medicine there is, releives any level of stress....especially if you laugh til it hurts.

FleaXXX

[divine g]

*******************

[lillyjgc]

And on another note, Divine G, will you please stop using capitals and bold in your posts? It creates an aggressive tone.As we are having a discussion about Chiron you must expect there to be differing opinions,divine G.I see no personal attacks in any posts other than yours actually.
And,Like Flea, I laughed my head off at some of the arguments being put forward here.
cheers
Lillyjgc

[divine g]

*****************

[flea]

Divine G....

I have been watching.... there is always a line that gets called differently by different people. In my opinion the line is getting close to being crossed... that is one of the reasons I posted, to make people aware I am following the thread. However if you do ever have a problem all of us moderators are here to listen and hopefully solve any issues that come up.

There are choices as to what to post, especially when tensions run high. I think it is possible to defuse emotion without having to do this through a post.

FleaXXX

[divine g]

***************

[Haizea]

As I thought more and more about my experiences with Tauruses, I saw a pattern of wounding and pain, which fits in with Chiron's role as wounded healer. So I simply asked the forum for some feedback, and I was open to the fact that I could be completely wrong.

I think what I highlighted in bold could be the key to something. Apart from other patterns in a personal chart that could lead to it, simply the relation between Taurus and Gemini could show some of that about wounds and healing.

They are very different in essence so there are now and then huge encounters which produce pain and wounds. They get on each others' nerves and it is truly difficult to understand the other person at times. On the other hand, there is a very close sense of intimacy and they feel loved by one another, and love is always healing.

That does not mean other people see Taurus as typically inflicting pain, or as an especially healing sign, for that matter.

[Frank]

The Q.E.D. statement was meant to show that your SELF-CONTADICTION in the previous post I quoted proved MY point. Not YOURS.

[EJ53]

...a quick recap should help.......I asked the forum for some feedback......at this point, we've heard alot of arguments for and against it, but most people have been open-minded about the idea......

Given that there are now 4 pages of comments on this thread, perhaps this is a good point to summarise the arguments "for and against" your original hypothesis......and maybe explain again the reasoning for the move to your current hypothesis.:unsure:

[wilsontc]

all,

Please get back to the subject of astrology. And, going forward in this thread, before you post your threads, imagine that your posting was directed at YOU. Would YOU like to read the things you are saying about yourself? If not, please rewrite the post so it is astrologically and not personally focused. As you know the Golden Rule is, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". Please observe this role as you continue posting on this thread. If you can not follow this simple rule, I will have to close this thread.

Moderately,

Tim

[divine g]

***************

[Frank]

Let me clarify some assumptions made in this thread and avoid any chance of words being put in my mouth that I didn't utter:

1. I never said anywhere that asking a horary question would give us an answer to this Chiron rulership issue. I proposed looking at 100 horary charts - previously successfully delineated where the sign Taurus was on the cusp representing the Querent or the Quested and see if those charts give the correct answer substituting Chiron for Venus in the explication. I never suggested a new horary chart on the subject.

2. The Q.E.D comment had to do with your (divine_g) assignment of the Quested as a 5th House matter rather than a 7th House matter. By way of justification, you said this was a question of "(friends=fun)" not a love question. In that same post, you say that they "weren't happy, harmonious romances, but painful ones" - a clear contradiction of your "friends=fun" assignment to the 5th House. Were the relationships "friends=fun" or "painful ones"?

There has been NO change in my position on this, and I still completely disgree with your assessment and assertions on this astrological matter.

I won't attempt to delineate the chart you cast for several reasons, among them: I don't feel it is a valid horary situation, I don't agree with your assignment of significators, and I strongly object to the use of a sample of one to prove anything.

I hope this post has cleared up any confusion regarding my statements and actions.

[divine g]

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[divine g]

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[Haizea]

You stubbornly hold on to your position like someone who was beaten fair and square, and seems to be saying everyone else cheated, and seeking every justification you can to prove me wrong.

I don't think that casting a horary chart proves anything. As for the witnesses who agree, they should come and tell us here that they do believe Chiron is the ruler of Taurus after seeing your chart...or whatever proof of evidence they gave you.

[Frank]

1.The "friends=fun" point was only to show that it was a 5th house issue, and not a 7th house issue as you proposed. Meaning these were girl "friends" and romances which ended, and not more serious 7th house issues of marriage, and divorce etc.
2. I've seen horary questions with people trying to find their keys. So we'll agree to disagree on what you feel a valid horary question is. As of now, there are 2 other astrologers here(I will go back and find their names if necessary) who made basic interpretations on a very clear and simple chart on a very sincere question on a pressing issue at the time.

I had no control over you entering the thread and suggesting I do a horary.

As to point 1. - Lilly says the 7th House is "all manner of love questions." Quote me a higher authority than that to support your 5th House assertion. Ramesey, another astrologer of that era, while writing from an electional astrology viewpoint assigns to the 7th House what he euphemistically refers to as "venereal sports".

As to point 2., I've done many valid successful horaries on lost objects. The reason that your question is, I feel, invalid is because the concept of horary was under discussion when you suddenly said "hey, I have a horary question, let's ask it." Real horary questions happen when a person has a burning issue that needs timely answering - not when someone is thinking about horary and starts thinking of questions that could be asked.

Again I will state in plain language: I never suggested you do a horary.

I merely suggested what would be a valid test of your assertions about Chiron - studying 100 previously delineated horary charts where Taurus was involved in determing one or more significators and seeing if within the rules of horary, Chiron works as a significator as well as Venus does.

I wish you luck in gathering those previously delineated charts and hope to see your published results.

[divine g]

****************

[Frank]

Obviously, I'm going to continue to disgree with your assertions in this matter no matter what you write.

I'm done with this thread until your research is complete and published.

Good luck.

[divine g]

*************

[lillyjgc]

Having Taurus on the cusp of H5 simply indicates nothing,as its a 7th house question.
Relationship questions are h7, NOT h5-That is the house of children, risk taking and entertainment.
Your basic premise is flawed. You are not using any kind of scientific method and casting a single horary *personal* chart on a *cheating girlfriend* question cant be used as proof of anything.
If you seriously believe your assertions, I suggest you set about doing the work involved in proving them.
Otherwise anyone can basically assert anything! Chiron just happened to be *in* Taurus when discovered.It has not been Astrological practice to assign rulerships on that basis-and after *13 years of experience*, you should be well aware of that.
Lillyjgc

[divine g]

[deleted personal, non-astrological comments - Moderator]

[lillyjgc]

I deleted my post here as the post I was replying to has now been deleted.
Lillyjgc

[EJ53]

...Apologies to anyone who was learning from this thread. Maybe next time, speak up....

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=172712&postcount=83

Maybe next time, someone will hear.

[wilsontc]

All,

It has become apparent that it is impossible for people to contribute to this thread astrologically without the posters putting in their own personal opinion of other posters. Since the posters insist on focusing on the people, not the problem, I am closing this thread. Apologies to all who were trying to contribute civilly to this thread.

Closing,

Tim