Ascendant - Sabian Symbol

[Arian Maverick]

When I first discovered the error concerning my time of birth, I remember eagerly consulting Sabian references (http://360sequations.tripod.com/sequations/id13.html) to see if I related to the degree of my Ascendant, which I soon discovered, to my disappointment, that I did not. Perhaps I am taking the description of the degree too literally, yet the image evoked in my mind has not left as strong an impression upon me as the degree for my incorrect Ascendant.

Current Ascendant:

2__(2°)
A COMEDIAN IS ENTERTAINING A GROUP OF HIS FRIENDS Objective understanding through extracting salient elements of being. Joy of life's discovery; or escape through humour.

___*When positive, the degree is the power of personality through a full and completely uninhibited self-expression, and when negative, a neglect of common responsibility through idle diversions of interest.

Previous (Incorrect) Ascendant:

307__(7°)
OUT OF THE COSMIC EGG,LIFE IS BORN FRESH AND VIRGINAL New actuation of effort by the power of unrealized purposes. Self-expression beyond all expectation. Spiritual protection.

___*When positive, the degree is a highly individual and completely unlimited resourcefulness, and when negative, naive reliance on external accident.

I have created this new thread to discuss the influence of this sensitive point of one's natal chart through the use of Sabian symbols.

Arian Maverick

[sam]

I'm unsure about my birth time, but I'm pretty sure mine is between 14 and 16.

104__(14°)
AN OLD MAN, ALONE, FACES THE DARKNESS IN THE NORTHEAST Fearlessness; and noble, self-perpetuating strength arising from knowledge. Courage in the facing of spiritual problems.
___*When positive, the degree is a highly effective enlistment of deeper and hidden elements of life for some momentary end, and when negative, lack of purpose and utter chaos in understanding.

105__(15°)
MERRY AND SLUGGISH PEOPLE RESTING AFTER A HUGE FEAST A turning to superficial things for self-strengthening. Self-indulgence in sensations. Unintelligent satiation; dullness.
___*When positive, the degree is an effective and smooth demonstration of human competence, and when negative, a self-disintegrating surrender to appetite.

CANCER__8__THE SPAN OF INGENUOUSNESS

106__(16°)
A MAN HOLDS A SCROLL. BEFORE HIM, A SQUARE IS OUTLINED Underlying tendency to revert to root patterns of being:" squaring" oneself with everyday reality. Control over life.
___*When positive, the degree is an absolute and personal control and organization of self for the purposes of each special situation, and when negative, self-limitation through unimaginative perspective.

[Draco]

Hi Sam,

Personally, while a fascinating oracle, I find Sabian Symbols of little use in regards to astrological study. For example, it would seem that the sentence for each degree is adapted on each different site that you visit. Eventually it becomes like Chinese whispers: the sentence for each degree shifting into something completely different to the original. This is a problem, because the change in wording inevitably will change the symbolic interpretation of that sentence quite significantly, that is, those of them that can be given a symbolic interpretation at all, as many of them sound like nonsense. :( For example, here are the degrees that you provided contrasted with the same degrees as provided on Astrology weekly:

104 - AN OLD MAN, ALONE, FACES THE DARKNESS IN THE NORTHEAST

Cancer 14
Sabian Symbol: A very old man, whose feebleness adds strangely to his dignity, stands alone, facing the darkness in the northeast.

105 - MERRY AND SLUGGISH PEOPLE RESTING AFTER A HUGE FEAST

Cancer 15
Sabian Symbol: A group of merry sluggish individuals are resting; they have overeaten most indiscreetly and enjoyed it.

106 - A MAN HOLDS A SCROLL. BEFORE HIM, A SQUARE IS OUTLINED

Cancer 16
Sabian Symbol: A futuristic editorial office provides unconscious symbolism; table, manuscript, martial visitor, all are square.

Other sources differ yet again and again. Such is the inconsistency of Sabian symbols.

I personally find the ancient system of attributing characteristics to degrees of much more value, particularly when it comes to rectifying a chart.

In your case, the 14th, 15th and 16th degrees of Cancer are as follows:

14th degree (13.00 - 13.59) This degree is 'masculine', 'void' and 'lame'.

15th degree (14.00 - 14.59) Masculine, void, lame, 'increasing in fortune', conjunct fixed stars Sirius and Canopus, as well as being the particular degree of exaltation of Jupiter.

16th degree (15.00 - 15.59) Masculine, void and 'deep'.

All these degree's are in Mercury's term and face, all are masculine and void.

You might be as well to check the few degree's proceeding and following these to see which you know to be more appropriate for your Ascendant.

To save me explaining the meanings of these terms, visit this link:

www.skyscript.co.uk/deginf.html (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/deginf.html)

Enjoy exploring.

Draco ;)

[sam]

Thanks Draco!

Medieval astrological literature is so depressing. All of the degrees I was suspect as my ascendant are void. The description for void is "and the more thou conferest with him, the greater defect shall be found in him. (CA., p.117)" Great! :P

It's interesting all of them are in the terms and faces of Mercury. I have a really Mercurial look, I think. That's probably further influenced by the Virgo moon, though.

Thank you again! I've been looking into dignities because of my interest in horary. The table helps a lot :)

[Draco]

Hi Sam,


Medieval astrological literature is so depressing. All of the degrees I was suspect as my ascendant are void. The description for void is "and the more thou conferest with him, the greater defect shall be found in him.


Ha ha, yes, I see what you mean. :o However, I believe that Lilly mostly refers to the different degree types in reference to finding a person's significator there in a horary chart. I think they might have a wider application to natal charts though. The degree of my own Ascendant is at Pisces 10, which is 'deep' and 'light'. The light degree makes sense to me, as light degrees:

'if the Ascendant be in those degree's you see are called light, the child or querent shall be more fair'.

This makes sense to me, because in comparison to most members of my family I am of fairer colourings, most of them tan very easily, whereas I am susceptible to sunburn if I'm not careful.

I have actually wondered if I ought to knock back my Ascendant by one degree, because then my Ascendant would be in a deep degree, as well as right upon fixed star Skat.

The deep degree:

'If either the Moon or the degree ascending or Lord of the Ascendant be in any of them, then it shows a man at a stand in the question he asks, not knowing which way to turn himself and that he had need of help to bring him into a better condition; for as a man cast into a ditch doth not easily get out without help, so no more can this querent in the case that he is without assistance'.

Let's just say I can relate to this a lot too. :(

As I say however, I think the application of these degree meanings is more relevant to horary, but they can be interesting when applied to the natal, particularly when rectifying a chart. For example, if a person is particularly fair or dark compared to most in thier family, we could reason that they should have a light or dark degree ascending, for a person born with a disability, we might expect to find a lame or deficient degree.

About you having a Mercurial term and face for the degree rising, here's Lilly's description:

''He denotes one of a high stature and straight, thin, spare body, a high forehead and somewhat narrow, long face, long nose; fair eyes, neither perfectly black or grey, thin lips and nose, little hair on the chin, but much on his head, and it a sad brown inclining to blackness; long arms, fingers and hands; his complexion like an olive or chestnut colour. You must observe Mercury than all the planets; for having any aspect to a planet, for having any aspect to a planet, he does more usually partake of the influence of that planet than any other does: if with Saturn then heavy, with Jupiter more temperate, with Mars more rash, with Sun more genteel, with Venus more jesting, with Moon more shiftier''.

Bear in mind, this description is very, very general, and would have to be modified with everything else that would influence appearance, such as the sign on the Ascendant and it ruler for example, I just provide it for your interest. Again, I think these descriptions are of more use in relation to identifying the appearance of persons according to significators in horary.

Draco ;)

[Arian Maverick]

I believe that these are the four possible degrees of my Ascendant:

29 Pisces: Saturn rules the degree by term; Mars rules the degree by face. This is a masculine degree and is noted as dark.

30 Pisces: Saturn rules the degree by term; Mars rules the degree by face. This is a masculine degree and is noted as dark. It is also conjunct the fixed star Scheat.

1 Aries: Jupiter rules the degree by term; Mars rules the degree by face. This is a masculine degree and is noted as dark.

2 Aries: Jupiter rules the degree by term; Mars rules the degree by face. This is a masculine degree and is noted as dark. It is also conjunct the fixed star Kerb.

If I am indeed Pisces Rising, Saturn rules the degree by term; if Aries Rising, Jupiter rules the degree by term. Otherwise, Mars rules all four degrees by face, and they are masculine and noted as dark.

However, Lilly's description of a dark degree does not ring true to me; indeed, despite the dark quality of each of these possible Ascendants, my skin is quite fair.

Let a sign ascend in a Nativity or Question, if the Ascendant be in those degrees you see are called light, the child or querent shall be more fair; if the degree ascending be of those we call dark, his complexion shall be nothing so fair, but more obscure and dark; and if he be born deformed, the deformity shall be more and greater; but if he be deformed when the light degrees of a sign ascend, the imperfection shall be more tolerable. (CA., p.117)

This is a very interesting table, and I thank you for sharing your knoweldge ;)

Arian Maverick

[Draco]

Hi Mav,

This is a very interesting table, and I thank you for sharing your knowledge

You're welcome. This is a very interesting table isn't it? I thought it might be of great value in rectifying charts, to help come to a stable idea of the correct degree according to this ancient system of attributions. I find the Sabians can be vague, or even cryptic. I still wonder if I ought to knock my Ascendant back one degree on account of the degree being 'deep'.

I see that the degree's for which your Ascendant must fall within are dark, and yet you are fair. The interesting thing is, if we go just outside your limit of 29 Pisces - 2 Aries, we find fair degrees. For example, 28 Pisces is light, as well as being feminine and deep. 4 Aries is light. I'm wondering if perhaps you could consider one of these to be your true Ascendant?

I think the first thing is to come to a conclusion as to which actual sign you have on the Ascendant. Then it's just a case of pinning down the degree. In your case, having your most personal of personal planets all in Aries, then I can understand why you may feel that your inclination to an Aries Ascendant may be influenced by these strong Arien placements, causing you to have doubt, when you may be Pisces rising like your brother.

Out of the two signs, Aries would give you Mars as ruler of the Ascendant, Pisces would give Jupiter (or Neptune as co if this is your preference). It's a case of determining which would make most sense, but again, with such strong Arien placements, your mind would veer toward Aries in any case.

Lately, I have been looking into the ancient system of determining temperament in the natal. According to this method, I am of a phlegmatic (watery) temperament, more toward the cold than the moist. I find this very enlightening, because this tells me a great deal about who I am, I know that this truly is me. I'll explain all this about the temperament in a thread eventually.

Now, the thing is, Pisces is cold and moist, Aries is hot and dry, so depending upon which sign you have rising, then this would have an effect upon the determination of your temperament in the traditional sense. I am currently still getting the hang of how to define the temperament in this way, but give me a couple of days, and when I feel I've got the hang of it, I'll start a thread about the ancient system of analysing temperament, and will consider both signs in determining the temperament in your chart, and then you can see which mosts describes you. In such an analysis, the ruler of the Ascendant is taken into account as well, so in your case, this could either be Jupiter or Mars, so this would also influence the outcome of your temperament. In this way, with the ancient method of analysing temperament, we can come to a conclusion as to what sign rising gives the most fitting description of who you know yourself to be. That being done, we can then look at the degree types of whichever sign is most appropriate, seeking for the light degree which would be your own. Perhaps then you can have greater confidence that you have identified the most appropriate degree for your Ascendant.

It is tremendously difficult to try and find out an Ascendant by inquiring of a horary. I have tried this myself, and tied my brain up in knots! :(

I notice your brother's Ascendant happens to be the same as my own. Is he also fair like you? If so, and if we are to give ancient knowledge any credit, it might be safe to assume that you would have a fair degree rising too. First we must identify the sign, so watch out for the thread on determining temperament in the natal, and we'll go through it and see what we can discover. :)

Draco ;)

[Arian Maverick]

I see that the degree's for which your Ascendant must fall within are dark, and yet you are fair. The interesting thing is, if we go just outside your limit of 29 Pisces - 2 Aries, we find fair degrees. For example, 28 Pisces is light, as well as being feminine and deep. 4 Aries is light. I'm wondering if perhaps you could consider one of these to be your true Ascendant?

Yes, I noticed this as well, though I am a bit hesitant to extend the parameters of my possible Ascendant degree further away from that of my recorded birth time. I suppose my inner critical Virgo is emerging in this regard...

I think the first thing is to come to a conclusion as to which actual sign you have on the Ascendant. Then it's just a case of pinning down the degree. In your case, having your most personal of personal planets all in Aries, then I can understand why you may feel that your inclination to an Aries Ascendant may be influenced by these strong Arien placements, causing you to have doubt, when you may be Pisces rising like your brother.

Out of the two signs, Aries would give you Mars as ruler of the Ascendant, Pisces would give Jupiter (or Neptune as co if this is your preference). It's a case of determining which would make most sense, but again, with such strong Arien placements, your mind would veer toward Aries in any case.


This is quite sychronistic, as I expressed a similar idea in a message I posted several minutes ago--before I discovered your response to this thread! Unfortunately, I can't seem to locate it... :o

I notice your brother's Ascendant happens to be the same as my own. Is he also fair like you? If so, and if we are to give ancient knowledge any credit, it might be safe to assume that you would have a fair degree rising too. First we must identify the sign, so watch out for the thread on determining temperament in the natal, and we'll go through it and see what we can discover.

Actually, I believe my brother's skin tone is slightly darker than my own; recent pictures seem to confirm this. However, he does have sensitive skin ;)

Arian Maverick

[sam]

Hi Sam,



Ha ha, yes, I see what you mean. :o However, I believe that Lilly mostly refers to the different degree types in reference to finding a person's significator there in a horary chart. I think they might have a wider application to natal charts though. The degree of my own Ascendant is at Pisces 10, which is 'deep' and 'light'. The light degree makes sense to me, as light degrees:

'if the Ascendant be in those degree's you see are called light, the child or querent shall be more fair'.

This makes sense to me, because in comparison to most members of my family I am of fairer colourings, most of them tan very easily, whereas I am susceptible to sunburn if I'm not careful.

I have actually wondered if I ought to knock back my Ascendant by one degree, because then my Ascendant would be in a deep degree, as well as right upon fixed star Skat.

The deep degree:

'If either the Moon or the degree ascending or Lord of the Ascendant be in any of them, then it shows a man at a stand in the question he asks, not knowing which way to turn himself and that he had need of help to bring him into a better condition; for as a man cast into a ditch doth not easily get out without help, so no more can this querent in the case that he is without assistance'.

Let's just say I can relate to this a lot too. :(

As I say however, I think the application of these degree meanings is more relevant to horary, but they can be interesting when applied to the natal, particularly when rectifying a chart. For example, if a person is particularly fair or dark compared to most in thier family, we could reason that they should have a light or dark degree ascending, for a person born with a disability, we might expect to find a lame or deficient degree.

About you having a Mercurial term and face for the degree rising, here's Lilly's description:

Bear in mind, this description is very, very general, and would have to be modified with everything else that would influence appearance, such as the sign on the Ascendant and it ruler for example, I just provide it for your interest. Again, I think these descriptions are of more use in relation to identifying the appearance of persons according to significators in horary.

Draco ;)

Thanks again, Draco :)

It's interesting that both my ascendant and moon are in dark degrees because although normally pretty fair-skinned (characteristic of Cancer rising) I tan really easily.


''He denotes one of a high stature and straight, thin, spare body, a high forehead and somewhat narrow, long face, long nose; fair eyes, neither perfectly black or grey, thin lips and nose, little hair on the chin, but much on his head, and it a sad brown inclining to blackness; long arms, fingers and hands; his complexion like an olive or chestnut colour. You must observe Mercury than all the planets; for having any aspect to a planet, for having any aspect to a planet, he does more usually partake of the influence of that planet than any other does: if with Saturn then heavy, with Jupiter more temperate, with Mars more rash, with Sun more genteel, with Venus more jesting, with Moon more shiftier''.


Most of that is pretty true. I have dark brown hair and brown eyes, but with a fair complexion. The only thing that's off is the facial hair. I've got quite a bit of that and body hair (being mostly from Mediterranean descent) Isn't Mercury associated with body hair?

[Draco]

Hi Sam,


The only thing that's off is the facial hair. I've got quite a bit of that and body hair (being mostly from Mediterranean descent) Isn't Mercury associated with body hair?


Me too. I believe that Mars oriental is associated with hairyness, and the sign Scorpio. I have Mars occidental however, although I have Mars in Scorpio.

Lily describes both Mars and Scorpio as pertaining to 'much hair of the body'.

I believe you have Mars in Scorpio too don't you? In fact it's conjoined with my own.

I think when it comes to the physical descriptions of planets, everything has to be taken into account. I think that when Lilly describes Mercury, he is describing what pure Mercury might look like in human form.

Draco ;)

[sam]

Hi Sam,



Me too. I believe that Mars oriental is associated with hairyness, and the sign Scorpio. I have Mars occidental however, although I have Mars in Scorpio.

Lily describes both Mars and Scorpio as pertaining to 'much hair of the body'.

I believe you have Mars in Scorpio too don't you? In fact it's conjoined with my own.

I think when it comes to the physical descriptions of planets, everything has to be taken into account. I think that when Lilly describes Mercury, he is describing what pure Mercury might look like in human form.

Draco ;)

Ah, yeah. My Mars is so far into Scorp (29 degrees, 52 minutes), though, it's almost Sagittarius.

[Undo]

Actually, Arian, there's a problem with these lists of Sabian symbols.

1 degree is actually 0 degrees
2 degrees is actually 1 degree.

So, for example, for my 22 degree Leo Ascendant I'd actually look for the 23rd Sabian Symbol. We start at 0 and end at 29!

23º Leo (143): A BAREBACK RIDER IN A CIRCUS DISPLAYS HER DANGEROUS SKILL.

So, this does pose a slight problem. ;)

So, essentially, take the degree, add one, and you got your Sabian symbol.
For the rest of the chart:

Sun
25º Cancer (115): A LEADER OF MEN WRAPPED IN AN INVISIBLE MANTLE OF POWER.

I liked that one better, before it had "invisible" and the keyword "destiny".

Moon
20º Cancer (110): VENETIAN GONDOLIERS IN A SERENADE.

Mars
26º Cancer (116): GUESTS ARE READING IN THE LIBRARY OF A LUXURIOUS HOME.

Venus
13º Gemini (73): WORLD FAMOUS PIANIST GIVING A CONCERT PERFORMANCE.

[Astrodawn]

Hi all

I dont know anything about sabian symbols so I did a search and came up with this result from cafe astrology.com


ASC 20-21 deg Leo

Intoxicated Chickens Dizzily Flap Their Wings Trying To Fly

LOL - I think my workmates might agree with the dizzy bit (my nick name at work is flappers) and I do tend to get intoxicated at weekends. Hopefully I dont look like a chicken though!

My............ that has made me laugh. :sunny:

[Vardigon]

Interesting. I went to the Skyscript site, and I looked up the star that was associated with 10 deg Sagittarius, which happens to be my ascendant. Notably, the star associated with this seems to be "Antares," or Rival of Mars. The site said that since Mars happened to be ruled by Scorpio (traditionally?), that Antares was the star rival to Mars.
he name means 'similar to' or 'rival of' Mars, because both are of a similar colour and luminosity, and also because - Scorpio being ruled by Mars - both were rulers and guardians of this constellation. Centrally located within the figure, it is also known as Cor Scorpii - 'Scorpion's Heart', or the 'Fire Star', on account of it notable red colour for which it is invoked in worship for protection against fire.

Oddly, I've noticed that when in the past I've gotten into close quarters with people of strong Scorpio inclination (moon sign, whatever, I can usually tell by the coal black eyes with a penetrating sparkle in them, hehe), I have tended to automatically and subconsciously lash out at them. Maybe this has something to do with it? >.>

[smilingsteph]

26-27 deg Aquarius

An Ancient Pottery Bowl Filled With Fresh Violets

This sounds so pretty to me, fitting for my venus in taurus....
Fresh flowers, beautifully aged pottery, ahh how nice....
I love violets too!

[nuthatch]

3-4 deg Capricorn

A Group Of People Outfitting A Large Canoe At The Start Of A Journey By Water

Well, one of the things I'm always trying to work on is my ability to rely on others and allow others to rely on me. So I think this is a lot about realizing that I need to work with others as a group to ensure that everything is prepared and that everyone gets where they need to go. And that spirituality and creativity are not a solitary pursuits. I've never been the type of person who can do any kind of work in isolation. Some people I know can; I can't. I need to be surrounded by like-minded and driven people, and I need to trade ideas and give support and have a little bit of healthy competition.

[sdh3]

Hi Sam,

Personally, while a fascinating oracle, I find Sabian Symbols of little use in regards to astrological study. For example, it would seem that the sentence for each degree is adapted on each different site that you visit. Eventually it becomes like Chinese whispers: the sentence for each degree shifting into something completely different to the original. This is a problem, because the change in wording inevitably will change the symbolic interpretation of that sentence quite significantly, that is, those of them that can be given a symbolic interpretation at all, as many of them sound like nonsense. :( For example, here are the degrees that you provided contrasted with the same degrees as provided on Astrology weekly:

You've touched upon a very important problem. Several writers and innumerable commentators and website proprietors have given themselves license to change the original wording of the symbols any way they see fit. The attached Excel spreadsheet contains the wording as given by Marc Jones, the founder of the Sabian Assembly and the co-creator of the Sabian Symbols.

The solution to the problem you outlined is not to abandon the use of the Sabians but rather to (1) confine one's interpretations to the original wording or (2) have a very compelling and well-thought out argument for why the wording has been changed. By the latter I mean the argument should offer a lot more than statements like "I like this wording better" or "These work better for me" or "These are more up-to-date."

---sdh3

PS: It turns out that I can't attach a spreadsheet and can't save it as a PDF in such a way that it stays under the 100KB limit for attachments on this website. The best option turns out to be "txt" format.

[sdh3]

When I first discovered the error concerning my time of birth, I remember eagerly consulting Sabian references (http://360sequations.tripod.com/sequations/id13.html) to see if I related to the degree of my Ascendant, which I soon discovered, to my disappointment, that I did not. Perhaps I am taking the description of the degree too literally, yet the image evoked in my mind has not left as strong an impression upon me as the degree for my incorrect Ascendant.

Current Ascendant:

Arian, please find below a copy of my interpretation for your "correct" Ascendant, Aries 02, which Jones recorded as "A comedian entertaining a group." As you'll note it is based on an analysis of the word histories or origins of the word themselves and results in insights not contained in any other published commentaries on this symbol. A key part of my interpretations concerns the analysis of paronyms, i.e. words that descend from the same etymological root as a word in the symbol.

***
Several paronyms of the words comedian and entertaining concern literary and musical forms, their means of expression, and their consequent effects on the human psyche. Specifically, at least four of the paronyms of comedian concern music and/or song—ode, hymnody, melody, and monody—as do an equal number of paronyms of entertaining—sitar, tenor, tone, and baritone.

Another two words connote Eastern spiritual traditions—Theravada, which is a paronym of comedian, and tantra, which is a paronym of entertaining.

A final theme concerns a small, cohesive number of people. First there is the last word in the symbol--group--which means “a set of people who meet or do something together because they share the same purpose or ideas.” And there is esoteric, a paronym of entertaining which means “confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle.” An “inner circle” is “a small, intimate, and often influential group of people.”

***

--sdh3

[dr. farr]

A "comedian" can also be related to the medieval similar concept, where they used the word "juggler"; which can also be taken back in time further, where "juggler" meant "magician"; which of course can be taken back to the root word, "Magian", and which all of these terms also symbolically connect with Hermes (=Thoth=Tehuti), which we have in the heavens as "Mercury"...

[sdh3]

A "comedian" can also be related to the medieval similar concept, where they used the word "juggler"; which can also be taken back in time further, where "juggler" meant "magician"; which of course can be taken back to the root word, "Magian", and which all of these terms also symbolically connect with Hermes (=Thoth=Tehuti), which we have in the heavens as "Mercury"...

Excellent point, dr. The chain or web or hierarchy of relationships among words is a fascinating subject. Applied to the study of word symbols we can easily see how a knowledge of mythology and etymology and archetypes can add layers of understanding. In my study and interpretation of the Sabian Symbols I always begin with the etymology, particularly the words' Indo-European roots. A large number of the related words are the names well-known to students Greek, Egypt, Zoroastrian, Indian, and other mythological traditions

--sdh3

[piercethevale]

Excellent point, dr. The chain or web or hierarchy of relationships among words is a fascinating subject. Applied to the study of word symbols we can easily see how a knowledge of mythology and etymology and archetypes can add layers of understanding. In my study and interpretation of the Sabian Symbols I always begin with the etymology, particularly the words' Indo-European roots. A large number of the related words are the names well-known to students Greek, Egypt, Zoroastrian, Indian, and other mythological traditions

--sdh3

Man, I don't know about getting any words that originate from Egypt involved in with the rest of the lot. It's the one language, as far as I can tell, that isn't of the Indo-European Tree of Languages. [nor is Hebraic].
I do appreciate your standing up for the integrity of the Sabian Symbols sdh3, I have felt all too often that I'm the only one in this forum that trys to 'look out' for them....and, although you know this, I again feel it necessary to add for everyone elses' sake that Marc Edmond Jones did give permission [and rather enthusiastically from what I read of the event] to Dane Rudhyar to publish His own book of interpretation and definitions of the same Sabian Symbols, and with permission to change any Symbol that Rudhyar might have thought, there was a better one that would do. Rudhyar did change a few, some more than others... but..Dane went for, not only a complete 'make-over' for the symbol for Aquarius 30* but oriented it, peculiarly both in the image of the symbol He chose and in the text of His definition to something which is readily recognizable as of, or pertaining to, "The Great White Lodge [or Great White Brotherhood]. Rudhyar, in a few of the other definitions or explanations, he wrote seemed in fact, to be inferring that same "GWB". I have said on a couple of times, at least, that Dane nowadays [I've been reading Rudhyar since the late 1970s...working with his Sabian Book since '84...but only recently really becoming aware of his 'Theosophist connections and this orientation to the GWB in particular..Authors will sometimes refer to the Legnedary 'Brotherhood' out of nothing more than obligatory reference...but, I ve recently realized that Dane was doing much more than that.] seems to have been, if not a member of the GWB [in some way as that I don't really know of any organization on Earth that can claim to be the authentic organization or representative of the legendary Great White Lodge/Brotherhood] someone that was, obviously, very much aware of its existence and of a supportive nature to it. Possibly Dane had been communicated to by the GWB or one of the particular 'Masters' alleged to be a part of it...as to the curious nature of those very few symbols he altered made into something still of the same definition but also easily recognizable and or associative of the 'Brotherhood".
[it seems that the web site that has posted Danes symbols for quick access and quotation is no longer in existence this morning for some reason....BUMMER!]
..anyway, here's an excerpt from the web page of the Sabian Assembly quoting a bit of Marc Edmond Jones as to Danes contribution, his book...

"He also gives tribute in his book to Dane Rudhyar, saying he, 'more than any other one person, was responsible for the initial popularization of these degree interpretations, virtually compelling the organization of the project on a scale sufficient to make publication possible.' It was shortly after Marc had published the 1931 mimeographed version of the Sabian symbols that Rudhyar became interested in his work. Marc described their association as follows:
The Sabian Symbols happened to fascinate Dane Rudhyar and I gave him permission to present them in the frame of, in his way today of explaining it, his different or "special social psychology and abstract philosophy" and in his abridgment they gave a redoubled indication of their validity. His Astrology of Personality and articles in the magazines at the time were very largely responsible for bringing my contribution out in the open or to first broad public notice. He however has never been a member of the Sabian Assembly or in any real sense a student of mine, but always has been his own man very completely, and this makes the current development all the more significant. In his new book that has just by several days come to my hand from his with a warm autograph, An Astrological Mandala: The Cycle of Transformations and Its 360 Symbolic Phases, he explains this later contribution of his on the dust jacket as 'A reinterpretation of the Sabian symbols, presenting them as a contemporary American I CHING.' In other words from a different worker in the cosmic vineyard is a variant establishment of what we identify as the screen of prophecy and one that under the circumstances is remarkable testimony to the universal Sabian depth."