Personal planets falls and detriments.

[Zend]

:wink:Hello Everyone

Has anyone ever seen a chart where ALL of the personal planets are either in fall or detriment? Yes, I have, yet I am somewhat unlucky enough to be the proud owner of the personal planets I have.

Of course the sun would be in Detriment in Aquarius, Mercury is in fall and therefore in Pisces, Mars is in pathetic cancer, Venus is in overbearing aries and the worst ever moon to have... yes you guessed it: boresome old and cold capricorn (Even more emphasized in the chart as Saturn Conjuncts the Sun).

I guess If the past life card has to be pulled it would have to go like this "maybe in your previous life you were a very selfish and yet self-destructive person whom alienated himself from all his peers and never realised the importance of other people; either a workaholic superachiever or a complete washout", I tend to believe this daydreamed theory as my North Node is in the Seventh House of Relationships and partnerships and therefore my South Node is in the 1st house of the self.

Any insight into this whole detriment/Fall story would be very helpful

Thanks and have a great day


[Mod edit - thread moved here, as it discusses the dignities and debilities of planets, and as the poster has given some explanation from his/her side.:)]

[Frank]

Having a planet in Detriment or Fall (or otherwise lacking dignity) does not really make it weak in a natal chart - it makes it different and uncomfortable. A planet can still be very strong in an essentially undignified sign placement.

Take for example, Hitler.

Look at his Saturn in Leo - in Detriment and also Peregrine. But it is also in Sect, Angular in the 10th House, and the most elevated planet in his chart.

His Mars and Taurus in Taurus is also in Detriment and Peregrine. But it is also angular and conjunct a Benefic. The Moon and Jupiter are also very bad dignity wise, On ein Detriment, one in Fall, and both Peregrine. However, they are also trine the Taurus positions.

What I recall Rob Hand saying in a workshop some years back is that Peregrine planets tend to act like loose cannons. And that they also (metaphorically speaking) try to be the Domocile ruler of the sign they are placed in.

Thus we have diciplinarian Saturn trying to be the Sun that the would revolves around, Aggressive Mars being the sweet-talking charmer, Emotional Moon appealing to the Masses, and expansive Jupiter imposing strict discipline and suffering.

Mercury and Venus are the only planets that have any essential dignity in his chart.

I realize that Hitler might not be the best role model here - but he was an extremely powerful man who nonetheless had "weakly" dignified planets. His chart is a good example of what planets that have essential dibility are capable of - in his case for the bad, but I'm sure we can find someone for the good. His just came to mind for me because it's such an extreme example.

[Frank]

One more: Hitler's Sun is also Peregrine in Taurus - so he really liked to turn on the charm - especially in public.

[katydid]

:wink:Hello Everyone


Of course the sun would be in Detriment in Aquarius, Mercury is in fall and therefore in Pisces, Mars is in pathetic cancer, Venus is in overbearing aries and the worst ever moon to have... yes you guessed it: boresome old and cold capricorn (Even more emphasized in the chart as Saturn Conjuncts the Sun).


Any insight into this whole detriment/Fall story would be very helpful

Thanks and have a great day

In another thread, Frank posted some data from his study of 'high intelligence', and guess what ? Mercury in Pisces was high on the list.

Also, I have Moon in Cap, and I have noted that MANY others here do as well. And they seem to be well adjusted, non-monsters, unlike the arhetype of Capricorn Moon. Hey, MY KIDS EVEN LIKE ME! We celebrated Mothers Day and everything. :happy:

I know a lot of people with the Sun in Aquarius, and they are not living their lives as if in any detriment or fall. They are dynamic, insightful, funny, and a bit odd, but not in detriment. :kissing:

Personally, I LOVE people with Venus in Aries. And for a guy especially, it is just fine. So you like feisty, pushy girls, so what? Why would Mars in cancer
want to have to make the first move?:devil:

[katydid]

One more: Hitler's Sun is also Peregrine in Taurus - so he really liked to turn on the charm - especially in public.

Frank, I like your style. Only you could use Hitler's chart to try and make someone feel better by comparing it to theirs, and yet you still make it work and make sense. Well done. :innocent:

[Struck]

Well I'm still kinda feeling my way around this stuff, but I have... let's see, I think four in fall and one detriment. Libra sun, Scorpio moon, Ascendant ruler Jupiter in Capricorn, Virgo Venus, uranus in Leo... I was a bit bummed when I got to that part, about planets in fall. I've since improved and feel like it's more a mark of needing less to work with, if that makes sense. Or being forced to learn ways to compensate. On the other hand, it is true that I think I could've done a lot more in life than I ended up doing. These days there is some solace in the romantic fantasy of dying unknown and poor and being discovered a century later... stuff like that. Of course like I said, I'm still in the early stages of study and may certainly be baring plenty of ignorance. Quite possible.

[natasa812]

Having a planet in Detriment or Fall (or otherwise lacking dignity) does not really make it weak in a natal chart - it makes it different and uncomfortable. A planet can still be very strong in an essentiually undignified sign placement.


I do agree.
An example:
I have Mercury in Sagittarius (in detriment) and retro, squares Mars the ruler of my 2nd of possesions. What do I do for a living? I work as a translator / interpreter.

How is that possible with THAT Mercury?

It is placed in 10th, in conj. with Jupiter and with MC, trines Moon that rules my 6th of every day job and Moon is angular and in exact conj. with my DC and trines Venus (the Moon) that rules my 8th of other peoples money.

So, it is not just the detriment or a fall but the chart as a whole.

Best r

[starlink]

Capricorn Moon. Hey, MY KIDS EVEN LIKE ME!

My granddaughter adores her daddy and he has a Capricorn Moon. Veeeerrrrrry responsible parent! But he has a Sagittarius Sun and Pisces Asc, with Jupiter in it so that might have added to his great charm. You just cannot resist his smile!!

Frank, yet again, great comparison and lecture!

I have Scorpio Moon (fall), Sun in Taurus (peregrine), Venus in Aries (fall), so that is in short the worst personal set-up you can imagine LOL! My Jupiter is also a bit on the weak side in Scorpio, but in 12, that is nice and Saturn is in detriment in Leo as well (oh boy, worse than I thought!!).

But in fact I am very strong, (I found out a bit too late in life) maybe due to my very dignified Mars, in Aries, who gives strength to my poor Venus via conjunction.

I did not know my own strength at all until Pluto crossed my Ascendant 11 years ago. So maybe "weakly dignified" planets have to grow up or rather, the individual has to go through a powerful transformation, in order to find their strength,and this can happen early or lateron in life.I believe therefore, that weakly placed planets show hidden strength. It is insecurity which keeps them from acting out forcefully. I think that Hitler was extremely insecure inside.

[AquaScorpio]

Personally, Moon in Scorpio is far worse then having a Moon in Capricorn, and I know because that's where my moon is, and it has given me trouble all my life. However, I feel that the Sun is not at all detrimental in Aquarius, out of all Leos and Aquarians I've met the Aquarians were by far less "weak". Not to mention a decent number of US Presidents have been Aquarians, and some of the most influential people of all time have also been. Of course, some of that can be due to other aspects of the chart but you get my point. According to my chart my Sun would be in Exile and Moon in Fall yet I don't feel this at all.

[aquarius7000]

According to my chart my Sun would be in Exile and Moon in Fall yet I don't feel this at all. This is one of the reasons why it might be good to think out of the traditional box when it comes to natal Astrology.

You did say though, AquaScorpio:Personally, Moon in Scorpio is far worse then having a Moon in Capricorn, and I know because that's where my moon is, and it has given me trouble all my life.My Moon in Cap is interested in understanding what sort of and how bad the Sco trouble was, if you don't mind dropping some hints. For my part, my Cap Moon can get stuck up on things (Sat's notorious rigidity). It can easily withdraw into its shell, esp in times of misunderstandings or arguments, when my Mars conj it is wanting to hit the fist on the table:D; Cap Moon opposed by Sat takes over (I should actually be and am, in such times, thankful for it). I also do not easily put my emotions on display, somthing that suits my cool and detached Aqua self quite well, though my Piscean Venus (sextile Moon) in the 7th of others thinks I am making a big sacrifice there:p.

:)AQ7

[AquaScorpio]

Yah I felt maybe that might have come off as a contradiction. I mean in the sense that there are certain Aquarian downfalls (as with any other sign) that perhaps my Scorpio Moon/Mars/Pluto can make up for. It's just hard to find a balance between the two.

I have two brothers, a cousin and sister in law who all possess a moon in Capricorn, and they can be a bit secretive about their emotions but are comfortable at times with discussing them. None seem withdrawn or cold or anything of that nature. However, in my own personal account, my moon in Scorpio is responsible for me feeling extreme emotions and being unable to communicate them well, either because it's overwhelming or because I don't want to. It makes me very secretive when something is bothering me, and usually when I repress these feelings they explode out, somewhat like a volcanic eruption, burning all in it's path =p

The reason I feel the Sco Moon is worse then the Cap Moon is because of the emotional volatility of the Sco Moon and we can be more secretive than even a Scorpio Sun. Capricorn is a much more stable and "in control" sign then Scorpio is, as far as the moon is concerned, in my own personal opinion.

[hermetic]

no offence to anyone, I find funny that Hitler comparison as it were to prove something good. ;)

title of this thread attracted me - I have Sun and Venus in fall(Libra,Virgo) and Moon(aqua) and Mars(sag) peregrine - I have definitely felt in my life these does not work well - very weak and troubled.

but... my brother has similar planets as original poster - Aqua Sun, Pisces Mercury, Aries Venus along with peregrine and combust aqua Moon - yet he is a very strong person, very bright and quick minded and endures many hardships with positive outlook always. yes, asc is gemini, Mercury in 10th and Sun is conj MC which acounts for his shiny persona.

one think i noticed - even in this thread, people confuse planets in detriment with those in fall - from my experience I would consider planets in their fall to be weaker, less able to express their energies.
in detriment they seem to find some alternative ways, example, Sun in Aqua or Venus in Aries are in detriment - they might be troublesome but they also can be very distinctive and powerful, while Mars in Cancer or Venus in Virgo(both in fall there) seem unable to work at all - Mars can't really be Mars in Cancer, and it requires angular position or good aspect, but most of the time I've seen it require psychological projection (exaple would be, male person who is not gay having secret desire to be raped by woman and having potency problem)

I also agree Moon seems to be much worse positioned in Scorpio than Cap, again fall vs. detriment - fall=worse.

just my opinions, I could be wrong

[starlink]

Personally, Moon in Scorpio is far worse then having a Moon in Capricorn, and I know because that's where my moon is,


It all depends on what you expect from your Moon. I also have Moon in Scorpio in the 12th (Pisces) house and I am actually very happy with this Moon because it gives me deep understanding of other people's problems and enhances my intuition. It squares Pluto and opposes my Sun. Strangely enough, I feel very much "at home" with my Moon there.

Modernly seen, Moon is in a waterhouse and sign which is not bad at all. Yes, traditionally seen it is in fall and in "dreadful" 12th house. The 12th house only (so far) makes me want to be alone, I need my privacy. Nothing bad about that.

I also happen to love hospitals (dont laugh!!). The moment I come into a hospital I also feel really "at home", God knows why. Every operation so far has been like going on vacation for me wonderful, resting, being cared for (I guess I missed that badly when I was young or in another life).

I worked twice in a hospital, I choose to do all my vacationwork in hospitals as a teenager. So for me, that Moon gives me all I want from it. Only disadvantage is that I cry at the drop of a hat. I see a beautiful baby, or a gorgeous sunset, oops!!, tears in my eyes. I see something sad on TV, I am in tears. I can also only talk in a really angry way, when I cry. Nothing to do with selfpity, just another way of getting rid of stress and being more able to say what I want to say. I can focus much better then.

So I guess this is all due to the Nepunian 12th house influence! Moon in Capricorn would probably make me more ambitious no doubt, but also make it more difficult to express my feelings and I just need to do that, always! However, few people know what I really feel inside at certain moment, also very much Moon in 12 in Scorpio.

[poshslob]

Three of my personal planets are in detriment or fall.

Mercury in Leo (fall)
Venus in Virgo (fall)
Mars in Taurus (detriment)

added to that I have
Saturn in Cancer (detriment)

So annoying!!

Any thoughts on this?

[elumen]

Well, I'm on the other side of the spectrum with most of my planets in exhalation or domicile but this topic is very very interesting to me. i've always wondered what exactly the fall or detriment does to people? one of my teachers had a negative opinion on it but from my observation people with debilitated planets often have optimistic outlook, relatively happy lives, strength of character, good morals, and etc. also, it would not be uncommon for those born in fall (Libras, Scorpios for e.g) or winter to have many planets in debility. Venus and Mercury are close to Sun, so when Sun passes Libra Venus is often in Virgo, for e.g. Does anyone have an idea what it means spiritually? As far as the difference between fall and detriment, I agree with hermetic, that a planet in fall is weak while in detriment it is thwarted somehow, but maybe powerful for good or bad...

[elumen]

Three of my personal planets are in detriment or fall.

Mercury in Leo (fall)
Venus in Virgo (fall)
Mars in Taurus (detriment)

added to that I have
Saturn in Cancer (detriment)

So annoying!!

Any thoughts on this?
It is easier to make a judgment about the planets by looking at the chart as a whole, but Mercury in Leo often gives one the desire to talk and lecture too much (i.e. being appreciated for their knowledge and intellect), but I know a few wonderful teachers with this placement. Saturn in Cancer gives emotional complexes, i.e. person is often not feeling safe and secure at home, or they have emotional/psychological wounds. Again, I know a few people who in spite of this placement are quite content with their lives.
How do you interpret these planets in your life?

[starlink]

Personally with all those weakly placed planets of mine, I dont feel that they have done me any harm at all. What could be the case though is that all over, generally speaking, I have not been very outspoken, not ambitious and always thought that others reached so much more in their lives than I did. Now that I am older I dont mind not being ambitious anymore and i have become far more outspoken, so I think it makes a person less self confident if you ask me. But what the traditional astrologers usually say about bad placements (awful things, they really give it to you:)) do not at all apply to my life.

[Awakened_Pisces]

Dignities and Debilities really allow you to make an educated guess about a person's life. For example, Frank brought up Hitler, he didn't dive deeply enough into the Jupiter. As he pointed out, it turned out to be beneficial. This is mostly through Accidential Dignity.
It was very accidentially dignified. Which is shown through his rising to nearly conquer all of Europe.

Not bad for a near broke man, eh Frank? I mean, you go from broke to a few mistakes from ruling the free world. That's unbelievable.

Now, my chart.

If you go Eastern/Sidereal. My Sun is in it's "Detriment" in Aquarius, Regardless. My Sun is in Pisces and in the 8th house as well. As a result, my Sun is extremely weak.
(To note: I am a daytime birth).

Jupiter is also in it's Detriment in Virgo. Sadly enough, Jupiter has NO dignity in Virgo.
it also is opposing the 8th house Sun.

Also, Mercury is ahead of the Sun(This is not deemed good by Astrologers). But it's in an angular house(9th) and it's trining Chiron and sextile Lilith.

So, a translation of what all this means:
We know Jupiter is virtually unhappy in Virgo. As Joseph had described it to me. Virgo
states: "The World is hell, I can prove it." Opposing the Sun. I was bullied often and always(Sun in 8th house, in it's detriment in a water sun). That bullying and the oversight of the world made me think like the Virgo. The world sucked in my view.

But, it were these negative feelings(Mercury rules Virgo). That pushed me to want to become better. I wanted to become smarter, better. Because I was always mocked, called inferior.

So, in a way, my Detriment Sun actually Strengthened me. Imagine if I had been born in a relatively wealthy family and I was viewed as popular. Would I have learned to preserve and to overcome? Would I have developed the need for learning? Probably not. Like most, I would have taken it all in.

What really propells me though is my Saturn-Mars combination. Mars is relatively dignified, Quincunx the MH, conjunct Saturn and Moon-Mars in Aries. They are also sextile that same moon.

Saturn-Mars conjunction shows a hidden force of power(Saturn=Control),(Mars=Fire). These are likely my very strong emotions of hatred and desire for overcomking.(as seen with the sextile to Moon). Normally, I am withdrawn and moody but otherwise smiling.

When I snap, I SNAP 0_0. Interestingly, Sidereal/Eastern gives me a Cancer ASC :).
So I am the moody type :).

I am also motivated to lead. As shown by Uranus-Neptune conjunction in Capricorn(Uranus=Ruler).

Venus is also dignified, yet outside of a very special lover I met at age 11. I actually have no romance whatsoever.

And although I'm good at communicating. I am NOT the Taurus. I still have a long way to go in that department. I can still be moody, feisty and sometimes implusive and arrogant and incorrect ;).

I'm a work in progress.