Do you have "The zodiac by degrees: 360 new symbols"-book by Martin Goldsmith? [Archive]

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Steeler

06-13-2009, 01:33 PM

Could anyone possibly tell me what the 26 degree Aquarius part says?
I've been trying to find the book through a few websites, but the book costs too much with shipping to where I live and Im desperate to find out the meaning behind this degree, since it's my descendant.

Rudhyar says it's a symbol of Mental Efficiency, but I'd like to know a bit more.

starlink

08-13-2009, 11:41 AM

Hello Steeler,

This is from Lindy Hill's book:

Aquarius 26: A GARAGE MAN TESTING A CAR'S BATTERY WITH A HYDROMETER.

Keywords: Testing the earthly vehicle for its roadworthiness. Situations that have "boiled over", bringing all to a stop. Breakdownds and the need for repair. checking water leverls. Anticipating future problems. The neeed for good batteries. Cars being serviced.

Caution: Causing distress by constantly analyzing people or situations. Not taking time for repards or tuneups. Running on empty.

Maybe you recognise something here.

Starlink

starlink

08-13-2009, 04:26 PM

I think he means his Descendant since it's my descendant., but that does not really matter. Charmvirgo is right. Anything over the exact 26° will become 27°. Or if your Desc. is 25° + some minutes, then it becomes 26°. So what is the Descendant degree exactly?

Steeler

08-23-2009, 01:21 PM

MiSt

03-13-2011, 06:28 PM

Hi
Please, I try to find this book in Ebook...
If someone can tell me the 2 degree taurus, virgo and scorpio, if its to much lenght, just for the bull.
Thank you very much its important :love:

piercethevale

03-13-2011, 11:43 PM

The degree of my descendant is 25, so in sabian symbols it's 26. :)
Thanks so much starlink for giving me description! Very thankful!

Sadly, this is one of those interpretations I can't fit in to my life at the moment,
but maybe when Im a bit older or something.

No...your ascendant degree is the 26th degree...why can't you people figure it out? [this seems to be a constant recurring problem with about 75% of all of you that post here on astrologyweekly.]
The year I was born was 1953...it wasn't the 19th century... now was it?
No, it was the 20th century...it's the same with degrees.
19* 53' is the 20th degree...Capiche?

piercethevale

03-14-2011, 06:20 PM

...and dump 'Goldsmith'...stick to Rudhyar and you can't go wrong.
http://mindfire.ca/The%20Sabian%20Symbols/An%20Astrological%20Mandala%20-%20Contents.htm

Mark

03-14-2011, 09:41 PM

Don't mind piercethevale too much. He gets cranky sometimes. Though, he is correct about the degrees. Personally, I always confirm by checking the range of degrees in whatever list I'm using.

If the list is 0-29, then the first degree sits between 0 and 1, and the last degree sits between 29 and 30 (given that 30 is identical to the zero degree of the next sign).

If the list is 1-30, then the first degree sits between 1 and 2, and the last degree sits between 30 and 31 (given that 31 is identical to the first degree of the next sign).

These are just two different ways of counting the same thing. I tend to use the first method (0-29) more often, because that is more natural for a computer to calculate (called zero-based counting). I always check whatever list I'm using, though. You have to expect that every list is written according to the mind of its author.

piercethevale

03-14-2011, 11:41 PM

Steeler

03-15-2011, 04:35 PM

Can someone who reads Sabian symbols confirm this?

I had understood that if you have a planet in 3 degree Aries, then you would read it as 4 degree Aries.
As an example, Michael Jackson's Sun is Virgo 5 degree, but his Sabian symbol is read as Virgo 6.
Also, Edith Piafs Sun is 26 degree Sagittarius, but in Goldsmith's book its read as 27 degree Sag.

This is how its done below and ELSEWHERE as well. I guess everyone on the internet is wrong, ay?
http://www.sabiansymbols.com/birthday_examples.html

piercethevale

03-16-2011, 08:39 PM

I spent about 20 mins looking through Goldsmiths book. I can't imagine where he gets off completely changing some symbols and definitions entirely.
Elsie wheeler was a top notch clairvoyant...and Dane Rudhyar who was, in my opinion and also the opinion of many other Astrologers and men of sciences and the arts also, the 20th centurys' greatest astrologer or at least equal to any in most areas of Astrology and un-rivaled in some other areas. and also very studied in philosophy, not only mainstream but the occult and esoteric too, and very studied in psychology...particularly Jungian...and became a remarkable symbologist through these studies. Dane then spent some 40 years re-reading the symbols given by Elsie...he did change a couple-few...but he did so to establish a more universally understood symbol of the particular degree in question ...i.e. that particular Cosmic Law/Principle found at that singular degree of the Zodiac [each symbol is the representation of a cosmic law/principle]..
FORTY YEARS...before he felt confidant enough with his work to publish it. Danes first book was 'The Astrology of Personality' and it included all the 360 Sabian Symbols as Marc Edmond Jones had released and allowed Marc slack in doing so. That book was published in 1936 and it was voted one of the "Top One Hundred Books of the 20th Century by the New York Times... in fact I'm pretty certain it was the only Astrological book selected in those 100. As confident and assured and maybe even possibly a tad egotistical from the response and reviews, He didn't let success go to his head...or have any concerns as to his bank account and so thus as to rush out something on the Sabian Symbols so as to capitalize on his new acclaim, recognition and popularity...many writers do just that...No, He still took 40 years before he would even dare to think He had analyzed every symbol and all it's nuances and that he could adequately, present the full 360 symbols in description, that He also had researched each detail of all 360 symbols that He was also giving the best analysis, definition, comprehensive understanding and even all the uses that the professional or serious students of Astrology, study, reference, professional work or private could and would use and I think He had not overlooked even the most minute detail and that the book was true to Elsies visions and was a book that got the 110% attention that any 'gnostic' [gnostic as an adjective] astrologer that may so happen to read it would quickly realize and determine it to be essential and invaluable and also continue to increase in value because of its information and its utilization ... as time went on.. and be so well researched, composed and written as to also be recognized as one of THE MOST useful, complete and authoritative Astrological books on the Sabian Symbols ..if not [I]THE all time best book on the Sabian Symbols outright to this day.
I've been using Danes book on the Sabians since 1984...I have seen such precise matching of the symbol and definition given by Elsie and Dane to known historical personages chart axis interpretations and most particularly, poignantly and profoundly to Parts/Lots found in the charts of the same historical figures. I would not have seen a connection or validity to them if I had be using M.G.s book...I would not have produced the Chart I say IS THE BIRTH CHART OF JESUS/YESHUA... ...but like I already said I probably would've tossed His book by the second or third year as being of little if any truth or credibility of itself and of the Sabians themselves...[unless Danes book did become available later...then I would champion the Sabians but denounce Martin as either a ****-poor astrologer, a fraud or an imbecile in general but certainly I would denounce him as a Sabin Astrologer or an as astrologer informed, studied and of comprehending the Sabian Symbols.
What Goldsmith has done is absurdly sophomoric, profane, damaging, contemptible and I will even say sacrilegious [as Rudhyars/Jones/Wheelers efforts and accomplishment has produced [re-discovered] a study, knowledge, application, technique, interpretation and writings, combined produce a truly Astrological Canon of the first order that is invaluable and most certainly without any equal in that particular field of Astrology...it's exactly that IMHO]...did he think he was improving on something that he obviously didn't even understand or have the academic background to attempt in the first place. Was he deluding himself...or is He some slick opportunist that really doesn't care about what He writes but how much it will sell? Taking a recognized valuable and essential, but little understood work that has very few recognized experts or authorities on the subject and then claiming to rectify, clarify or produce a better complete tome it is an easy way to try to get published and achieve some acclaim or notoriety when one has little to no talent, has no prospects of any intellectual achievements in any other field or study and is of little academic attempt, accomplishments and/or potential...
Maybe next He'd like to re-interpret the manuscripts of Nag Hamadhi, the Baghava Gita, the Rosetta Stone re-write Bartletts Great Quotations...how about the English dictionary...He could make an small fortune if he could convince enough people that He is more qualified, studied and informed to do so
It's comparably the same thing to...say... re-write the Bible in modern colloquialisms and then declare that the multitudinousness and depth of meanings and applications that a Rabbinical Kabblist can reveal from the original Hebrew text do still remain and provide the same information and understanding...
For what effort He did put into it He may as just as well put out a coloring book and tossed in a few crayons...I could use some crayons...but his book isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
If I had started out with Martins book [...and if I never saw a copy of Rudhyars or Jones work...or Dane and Marcs' writings on the Sabians didn't exist,[I] and all there was published on the Sabians was by Goldsmith, I wouldn't have had any progress with trying to understand the Sabians and probably would've discarded it in a few years time as being useless, or outright fiction and half baked conjecture...and then I would now be presently denouncing the 360 Symbols [that is if I had continued with Astrology...which without the Sabians by Rudhyar/Jones/Wheeler, to be truthful, I'd probably had given up on Astrology as something to vague and of very little real value if I felt it had any legitimacy at all ...probably back in the late 80s or early 90s
...If you insist on referring to it I suggest have a copy of Dane or Marcs work too and consult both...but even then give the weight of credibility and the definition to Rudhyar and Jones.
If you plan on using only Goldsmiths' work...I wouldn't plan on getting too much of or even the slightest reputation as a credible or knowledgeable Astrologer if I were you...of that I'm 99.9% certain...you'll either adapt and accept or fall by the way side with little notice and no grief from anyone...with a book that you'll find that no one wants to even borrow much less by from you...time will prove that to be true before the end of this decade.
...yeah, I'm 'crotchety...and with good reason...I don't like to see earnest and impressionable young/new Astrologers being given a bum steer and wasting their time and/or even worst becoming disillusioned with Astrology as they believe themselves to have studied and learned from the correct source [there already are thousands of those folks and they will be the hardest ones to convince to even give it another try...to have to discard so much that hours upon months/years were given to in good faith and belief and then give many more in a [supposedly...but genuine] correct and different course of study from what they've already spent years on ....and, you insist on saying you're stating the correct degree and that the books are wrong/or that we are making you round up to the following degree...and I explained it to you as simply as a child of 7 or 8 could understand. Again. [For Example I will use the degree number 25] The only time that the number 25 for the degree of any sign for a planet or a house cusp or an Arabic Part or anything else in astronomy or astrology is the 25th degree is when it reads 25* 00' 00"...and note there is no such thing as 0* 00' 00" ...because that doesn't exist...that would be 30* 00' 00" of the previous sign...each sign starts out at 0* 00' 01" and then proceeds to 0* 00' 02...and so on until it reaches 1* 00' 00"...then the next in the sequence is 1* 00' 01" and at that point and then on until 1* 59' 59" and followed by 2* 00' 00" you are in the second degree and then on until 30* 00' 00" and then you go into the next sign staring with 0* 00' 01" again Anything that has a 0* followed by any combination of numbers for minutes and seconds is the 1st degree of that sign...there is not such thing as 0 degree in the Zodiac or in any system of orienteering...
Zero degrees only exist in the numerical calibrations that are used in recording temperature.
You were born in the 1900s but it was the 20th century. The day you were born it was the first day of your life...your first 'birthday'...i.e. the day you became a 'One Year Old' was 365 days away ...but until that day you were in your first year...you weren't in your Zero Year. {The day of your first birthday you were a year old but also on that very day you were in your second year]
This is an absolute in definition of degrees when using degrees as place reference in orienteering...there are 360 degrees...12 x 30 ...that's 1 through 30...not 0 to 30...because then you would be saying that each sign has 31 degrees and there would be 372 degrees in a circle.
No exceptions...no substitutions...no alternative systems...get with the program.
I will be doggedly after anymore such posts by anyone that wants to continue saying there is a 0 degree and a 0 Sabian Symbol and I will not be ignored...if I have to post over and over and over on the same thread I will do so until that person accept, learns and from then on so practices or they truly regret their having posted what they did in the first place...I will guarantee it to anyones satisfaction or dismay...whatever.

Steeler

03-19-2011, 08:26 PM

piercethevale

03-19-2011, 09:38 PM

Pierce, I like Rudhyar as well, but Goldsmith simplifies the meaning of the symbols in a way that is helpful to a lot of individuals.

When it comes to reading the Sabian symbols and the degrees, I have read them exactly like they are being read by everyone else. Even the pro's. If this is wrong, then everyone is wrong except you.
Steeler, you don't even know how to identify the degrees of the Zodiac! So....don't try to bamboozle anyone with this subterfuge. Goldsmith has distorted and completely changed the meanings on many of the symbols.
There are no shortcuts to the depth of the meanings. Period.
Goldsmith is a cheap opportunist with no qualifications to publish on the matter.
It seems to me you have some hidden agenda to sell everyone on this man and his writing...

piercethevale

03-19-2011, 11:47 PM

Also, as I believe that Goldsmith refrains from calling his symbols "Sabain" as that is a term that Marc Edmond Jones applied to Elsie Wheelers system of which Goldsmith has knowingly strayed.
If this is "THE SABIAN FORUM' then alternative hypothetical systems, such as Goldbergs', belong in another sub-forum, possibly even the 'Research Forum' but they have no place here because they do not lead to Sabian knowledge.
...and, the name may indeed be 'Trade-marked' and I would be willing to bet that is why Goldsmith left the word from his book as because the foundation wouldn't approve it.

piercethevale

03-20-2011, 04:24 PM

" No one is capable of independently inventing or discovering the fundamental principles of the universe. This wisdom was bequeathed to humanity from the great beings of light who dwell on distant stars, brought to us by Their emissaries of light, and has been taught in the Mystery Schools since the dawn of time. This will never change, notwithstanding the modern fantasy that everything is suddenly different and no one needs to pay attention to the teachings of the ages and the wisdom of great initiates. "
__________________

sdh3

03-25-2011, 10:42 AM

Hi
Please, I try to find this book in Ebook...
If someone can tell me the 2 degree taurus, virgo and scorpio, if its to much lenght, just for the bull.
Thank you very much its important :love:

MiSt,

Here is the wording for the three symbols as given by Marc Jones in "The Sabian Symbols in Astrology" published in 1953.

Taurus 02: An electrical storm
Virgo 02: A large white cross upraised.
Scorpio 02: A broken bottle and spilled perfume.

If you were seeking Goldsmith's wording for these symbols, I found these in a search of the book on Amazon:

Taurus 02: A satyr capering in the midst of an electrical storm.

Virgo 02: Excluded from a talent show because of her race, a flamboyantly dressed black girl sneaks in the stage door and successfully pleads her case before the judges.

Scorpio 02: Pretty waitress banters jokingly with an insolent customer while setting a vase of flowers on the table. When he steps over the line she accidentally tips a glass of wine onto his pants.

For the record, I agree wholeheartedly with PtV on these symbols: they are not as worthy of your time as are the interpretations given by Rudhyar or Jones.

Finally, it was not clear from your post whether you were hoping to see interpretations of one or the other set of the symbols. If it's Goldsmith's you can look them up yourself on Amazon or perhaps Google books. If it's the originals, i.e. those from Jones, perhaps I can help with that.

thoughtfully,
sdh3

MiSt

03-25-2011, 01:25 PM

Thank you !
But I Think Goldsmith is a F*ck*ng swindler...:whistling:
I'm not very sure but it's the life :w00t:
EEEEEEE VIVA SABIAN :wink:

piercethevale

03-25-2011, 02:03 PM

Thank you !
But I Think Goldsmith is a F*ck*ng swindler...:whistling:
I'm not very sure but it's the life :w00t:
EEEEEEE VIVA SABIAN :wink:
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::bigg rin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:...and I just love your Avatar!

piercethevale

03-26-2011, 02:51 PM

MiSt,

Here is the wording for the three symbols as given by Marc Jones in "The Sabian Symbols in Astrology" published in 1953.

Taurus 02: An electrical storm
Virgo 02: A large white cross upraised.
Scorpio 02: A broken bottle and spilled perfume.

If you were seeking Goldsmith's wording for these symbols, I found these in a search of the book on Amazon:

Taurus 02: A satyr capering in the midst of an electrical storm.

Virgo 02: Excluded from a talent show because of her race, a flamboyantly dressed black girl sneaks in the stage door and successfully pleads her case before the judges.

Scorpio 02: Pretty waitress banters jokingly with an insolent customer while setting a vase of flowers on the table. When he steps over the line she accidentally tips a glass of wine onto his pants.

For the record, I agree wholeheartedly with PtV on these symbols: they are not as worthy of your time as are the interpretations given by Rudhyar or Jones.

Finally, it was not clear from your post whether you were hoping to see interpretations of one or the other set of the symbols. If it's Goldsmith's you can look them up yourself on Amazon or perhaps Google books. If it's the originals, i.e. those from Jones, perhaps I can help with that.

thoughtfully,
sdh3

Now considering what Goldsmith has done to the symbol for Virgo 2* I would say that this man has a definite agenda here and it isn't about simplifying the symbols or anything like that. As his name is 'Goldsmith' I think you all can figure it out.
Can anybody give his symbols for Pisces 7* and 19* ?

MiSt

03-26-2011, 04:11 PM

http://books.google.fr/books?id=m7bx94pTWYQC&pg=PA361&lpg=PA361&dq=martin+goldsmith+degrees+taurus&source=bl&ots=u-cBWk_9B3&sig=PwyXXJBgBiaia2VQleBIF0Q3LD4&hl=fr&ei=k9J8TcOpH4u5hAfKpKTmBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=true

I love you too
This is for 7 degree.

sdh3

03-28-2011, 08:14 AM

Now considering what Goldsmith has done to the symbol for Virgo 2* I would say that this man has a definite agenda here and it isn't about simplifying the symbols or anything like that. As his name is 'Goldsmith' I think you all can figure it out.
Can anybody give his symbols for Pisces 7* and 19* ?

Pisces 7 and 19--I found them via Google Books:

Pisces 7: A minister invites a dirty urchin into his church for a bite to eat. The boy stares in wonder at the opulent surroundings and at the beautiful woman singing a hymn.

Pisces 19: A beautiful and charismatic woman exhorts a crowd of citizens to settle their differences and rebuild a tumbledown cathedral.

It's worth noting that Goldsmith states in his introduction that he used Sabian symbols when they matched his data and made up his own when they didn't. He discusses at some length how, after studying thousands of charts he had about 170 examples degree--quite an impressive data set, to be sure. I quote at length from pages xix-xx:

"After I had collected the data, I began to analyze it. What is the first thing that stands out about the examples? What kind of people are they? The chief obstacle that I faced here was psychological projection. At this stage in my research, I had been using the Sabian Symbols for many, many years. Years earlier, I had committed them to memory, and I was very attached to some of the more beautiful images. It was hard for me to see the degrees in any new way. Even when I had a large collection of examples in front of me, I tended to focus on the examples that worked with the Sabian symbols. Since I was trained in science, I at least understood the importance of looking at the data dispassionately. However, this was easier said than done, for without the impersonality of statistical methods, inaccurate perceptions could easily prevail. I tried to get around this problem by going over the examples very carefully and by working through each degree repeatedly. the key lay in emptying my mind of all previous analyses and images before I consider the examples. I then simply looked for groups of people who had peculiar thing in common. I started by identifying every common thread I could find. Only after much thought and analysis did I begin to identify the central principle of each degree."

"After going as far as I could from the sample, I went through ten different degree systems to see if they provided any new insights. I checked these systems against the examples themselves and against my previous analyses of the examples.. In general, the Sabians tallied with the examples more often than any of the other symbol systems. However, in isolated instances, a symbol from one of the other systems conformed to the data better than the Sabian symbol.

"By the end of the process I had generated up to ten pages of notes for each symbol. I had already achieved a fairly good understanding of the dynamics of each degree. However, I still had to come up with a symbol. When the Sabian symbol fit the examples fairly well, I simply modified it in light of the examples. When the Sabian didn't fit the examples, I turned to the other symbols systems. Since I was looking at about ten other systems, I had a lot of images to choose from. Unfortunately, the fit between the examples and the degree symbols was often not particularly good in any of the systems. This made it necessary to create a new symbol. However, if even one aspect of a symbol seemed to work in any one of the systems, I found it much easier to come up with the rest of the image."

"For example, the sixth degree of Scorpio is symbolized in the Sabians by "A Gold Rush." This symbol had never particularly impressed me, even before I had done any research. I knew a number of people with planets in this degree and the image didn't seem to fit them. They were not, as one might have expected, greedy people who were always on the lookout for moneymaking opportunities. I noticed that a number of people in the examples...were involved with guns and police investigations. The Degrees of Life has for this degree "Thou are a woman alone in thine house , defending thyself and thy possessions against thieves in the absence of thine husband." This seemed to describe the examples a lot better than the Gold Rush. I therefore began with images of thieves in the house, and then imagined some of the people in the examples in similar situations, until one of the images passing through my mind seemed to click."

FWIW, I see four major, glaring flaws in Goldsmith's logic and approach. Firstly, who says he had anything resembling a representative sample of charts? Just because the sample is large doesn't make it valid. Secondly, how much could he presume to "know" about the people in his set of examples--especially the "well-known" and famous ones. Even more problematic is the notion that a symbol set could be developed inductively, i.e. from examples to symbols. Symbols sets like the Sabians come from the top down, from spirit to matter: not the other way around. Fourth, if after so "many, many years" he could not understand that the "Gold Rush" symbol was not to be interpreted in the manner he did--grubbing moneymakers one and all--then the man has absolutely no sense for interpreting symbols. It makes you wonder what he meant when he used the word "fit."

In short, I won't impugn the man's motives but I can't conclude other than that the approach is wrong-headed and the entire enterprise is highly suspect.

thoughtfully
sdh3

SniperBomber328

03-28-2011, 11:32 AM

---------------------

piercethevale

03-28-2011, 03:20 PM

Pisces 7 and 19--I found them via Google Books:

Pisces 7: A minister invites a dirty urchin into his church for a bite to eat. The boy stares in wonder at the opulent surroundings and at the beautiful woman singing a hymn.

Pisces 19: A beautiful and charismatic woman exhorts a crowd of citizens to settle their differences and rebuild a tumbledown cathedral.

It's worth noting that Goldsmith states in his introduction that he used Sabian symbols when they matched his data and made up his own when they didn't. He discusses at some length how, after studying thousands of charts he had about 170 examples degree--quite an impressive data set, to be sure. I quote at length from pages xix-xx:

"After I had collected the data, I began to analyze it. What is the first thing that stands out about the examples? What kind of people are they? The chief obstacle that I faced here was psychological projection. At this stage in my research, I had been using the Sabian Symbols for many, many years. Years earlier, I had committed them to memory, and I was very attached to some of the more beautiful images. It was hard for me to see the degrees in any new way. Even when I had a large collection of examples in front of me, I tended to focus on the examples that worked with the Sabian symbols. Since I was trained in science, I at least understood the importance of looking at the data dispassionately. However, this was easier said than done, for without the impersonality of statistical methods, inaccurate perceptions could easily prevail. I tried to get around this problem by going over the examples very carefully and by working through each degree repeatedly. the key lay in emptying my mind of all previous analyses and images before I consider the examples. I then simply looked for groups of people who had peculiar thing in common. I started by identifying every common thread I could find. Only after much thought and analysis did I begin to identify the central principle of each degree."

"After going as far as I could from the sample, I went through ten different degree systems to see if they provided any new insights. I checked these systems against the examples themselves and against my previous analyses of the examples.. In general, the Sabians tallied with the examples more often than any of the other symbol systems. However, in isolated instances, a symbol from one of the other systems conformed to the data better than the Sabian symbol.

"By the end of the process I had generated up to ten pages of notes for each symbol. I had already achieved a fairly good understanding of the dynamics of each degree. However, I still had to come up with a symbol. When the Sabian symbol fit the examples fairly well, I simply modified it in light of the examples. When the Sabian didn't fit the examples, I turned to the other symbols systems. Since I was looking at about ten other systems, I had a lot of images to choose from. Unfortunately, the fit between the examples and the degree symbols was often not particularly good in any of the systems. This made it necessary to create a new symbol. However, if even one aspect of a symbol seemed to work in any one of the systems, I found it much easier to come up with the rest of the image."

"For example, the sixth degree of Scorpio is symbolized in the Sabians by "A Gold Rush." This symbol had never particularly impressed me, even before I had done any research. I knew a number of people with planets in this degree and the image didn't seem to fit them. They were not, as one might have expected, greedy people who were always on the lookout for moneymaking opportunities. I noticed that a number of people in the examples...were involved with guns and police investigations. The Degrees of Life has for this degree "Thou are a woman alone in thine house , defending thyself and thy possessions against thieves in the absence of thine husband." This seemed to describe the examples a lot better than the Gold Rush. I therefore began with images of thieves in the house, and then imagined some of the people in the examples in similar situations, until one of the images passing through my mind seemed to click."

FWIW, I see four major, glaring flaws in Goldsmith's logic and approach. Firstly, who says he had anything resembling a representative sample of charts? Just because the sample is large doesn't make it valid. Secondly, how much could he presume to "know" about the people in his set of examples--especially the "well-known" and famous ones. Even more problematic is the notion that a symbol set could be developed inductively, i.e. from examples to symbols. Symbols sets like the Sabians come from the top down, from spirit to matter: not the other way around. Fourth, if after so "many, many years" he could not understand that the "Gold Rush" symbol was not to be interpreted in the manner he did--grubbing moneymakers one and all--then the man has absolutely no sense for interpreting symbols. It makes you wonder what he meant when he used the word "fit."

In short, I won't impugn the man's motives but I can't conclude other than that the approach is wrong-headed and the entire enterprise is highly suspect.

thoughtfully
sdh3

Just as I suspected He seems to be after any symbols that have a 'Christian' ring or colouring to them, as Pisces 7* Is. "ILLUMINED BY A SHAFT OF LIGHT, A LARGE CROSS LIES ON ROCKS SURROUNDED BY SEA MIST." [Venus in my proposed birth chart for Jesus/Yeshua]

...and Pisces 19* is: "A MASTER INSTRUCTING HIS DISCIPLE." [the Part of Fortune in the said aforementioned proposed chart]

Goldsmiths symbols are worthless!

...Karma is going to catch up to Goldsmith and bite him in the a**...If he likes...I can change that imagery for him!...LOL!

...and btw...that is a fine analysis you did...you would make an excellent debater!

sdh3

03-29-2011, 06:41 AM

Hi
Please, I try to find this book in Ebook...
If someone can tell me the 2 degree taurus, virgo and scorpio, if its to much lenght, just for the bull.
Thank you very much its important :love:

MiSt, here's my own interpretation. Perhaps you'll find it useful.
thoughtfully
sdh3

According to the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=electric), the first use in English of the word electric took place in the 1640’s and is attributed to Sir Thomas Browne (1605-1682). But it was another Englishman, physicist William Gilbert (1540-1603), who coined the term in a Modern Latin scientific treatise entitled De Magnete (1600). The word’s roots are both the Latin electrum and the Greek electron, both of which mean “amber” or “pale gold” (one part silver to four parts gold). The word electric was used in that treatise to described all substances which “like amber, attract other substances when rubbed.”

The word storm descends from the Indo-European root (s)twer-1 which means “to turn, whirl.” Other derivatives include the words stir, trouble, turbid, turbine, disturb, and perturb. As a noun, the word storm descends most immediately from the Old English storm which in turn descends from the pre-Germanic sturmaz. Figurative or non-meteorological uses of the word may have entered the language in the late 14th century where, as a verb, it was taken to mean “to rage, be violent.” Its first use in a military sense, e.g. to storm a castle, came in 1645 and is attributed to Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658).

COMMENTARY: Recall that among the derivatives of (s)twer-1 are six words—stir, trouble, turbid, turbine, disturb, and perturb. Several of them have a semantic relationship to the keyword electric or to its etymology. First, there is the compound word hydroelectric turbine, “a turbine consisting of a large and efficient version of a water wheel used to drive an electric generator.” Most of the world’s electricity is produced by turbines powered by wind, water, steam, or other forms of energy. Second, the word trouble is listed in Roget’s 21st Thesaurus as a synonym of ‘rub’ when the latter takes the sense of “difficulty” or “problem.” Third, the word stir can mean “to prod into brisk or vigorous action” and “to excite strong feelings in.” The word electrical can mean “emotionally exciting; thrilling” and “exceptionally tense; highly charged with emotion.” Not surprisingly, then, included among the synonyms of the word electrical is the word stirring.

piercethevale

03-29-2011, 03:17 PM

MiSt, here's my own interpretation. Perhaps you'll find it useful.
thoughtfully
sdh3

According to the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=electric), the first use in English of the word electric took place in the 1640’s and is attributed to Sir Thomas Browne (1605-1682). But it was another Englishman, physicist William Gilbert (1540-1603), who coined the term in a Modern Latin scientific treatise entitled De Magnete (1600). The word’s roots are both the Latin electrum and the Greek electron, both of which mean “amber” or “pale gold” (one part silver to four parts gold). The word electric was used in that treatise to described all substances which “like amber, attract other substances when rubbed.”

The word storm descends from the Indo-European root (s)twer-1 which means “to turn, whirl.” Other derivatives include the words stir, trouble, turbid, turbine, disturb, and perturb. As a noun, the word storm descends most immediately from the Old English storm which in turn descends from the pre-Germanic sturmaz. Figurative or non-meteorological uses of the word may have entered the language in the late 14th century where, as a verb, it was taken to mean “to rage, be violent.” Its first use in a military sense, e.g. to storm a castle, came in 1645 and is attributed to Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658).

COMMENTARY: Recall that among the derivatives of (s)twer-1 are six words—stir, trouble, turbid, turbine, disturb, and perturb. Several of them have a semantic relationship to the keyword electric or to its etymology. First, there is the compound word hydroelectric turbine, “a turbine consisting of a large and efficient version of a water wheel used to drive an electric generator.” Most of the world’s electricity is produced by turbines powered by wind, water, steam, or other forms of energy. Second, the word trouble is listed in Roget’s 21st Thesaurus as a synonym of ‘rub’ when the latter takes the sense of “difficulty” or “problem.” Third, the word stir can mean “to prod into brisk or vigorous action” and “to excite strong feelings in.” The word electrical can mean “emotionally exciting; thrilling” and “exceptionally tense; highly charged with emotion.” Not surprisingly, then, included among the synonyms of the word electrical is the word stirring.

OOOOoooh! An online Etymology dictionary! Thank you.
"He who tracks language to its' lair will indeed become omniscient!" Shankara

sdh3

03-30-2011, 02:40 AM

OOOOoooh! An online Etymology dictionary! Thank you.
"He who tracks language to its' lair will indeed become omniscient!" Shankara

Wonderfully symbolic language... "track language to its lair." That is, in essence, the approach I have recently taken to the study of the Sabian Symbols. After nearly 18 years of studying the interpretations of Jones and Rudhyar, I started to track all the words back to their origins, specifically to their Indo-European roots. It's a tremendous learning experience and the findings comport nicely with those of the esteemed experts. That having been said, I surely have a lot more work to do because I am very very far from "omniscient." :biggrin:

thoughtfully
sdh3

piercethevale

03-30-2011, 04:14 AM

Wonderfully symbolic language... "track language to its lair." That is, in essence, the approach I have recently taken to the study of the Sabian Symbols. After nearly 18 years of studying the interpretations of Jones and Rudhyar, I started to track all the words back to their origins, specifically to their Indo-European roots. It's a tremendous learning experience and the findings comport nicely with those of the esteemed experts. That having been said, I surely have a lot more work to do because I am very very far from "omniscient." :biggrin:

thoughtfully
sdh3

One dictionary I possessed as a lad had the "Indo-European" language tree illustrated on inside the cover. It had all of the languages linked to Sanskrit at the root. The only ones that weren't was the language spoke by the Basque and the Tallic language[s]...as I remember.
I thought it most fascinating then and still regard it as probably correct in almost all if not all examples. My lifelong interest in etymology, philology and semantics has proven to me to have been most helpful and illuminating to the benefit of other studies too!
I've often speculated that what is in the Vedas may well be the forgotten lore and beliefs of most of the Caucasian race...lost, forgotten or changed with the changing of the mother tongue.
As a Japa Yogi for over 40 years I have found Sanskrit to be most effective in prayer/rites/incantations as it is a purer form of expression!

piercethevale

03-30-2011, 02:19 PM

Just to set the record straight. I'm certainly not anti-semitic as I have the Kabbalists to thank for many an epiphany and I have had at least one prior life as a Jew...and a rather significant one I'm told. So did my recently demised mother. I've also many Jewish friends in this life.
...and I'm definitely not anti-semantic...:lol:

sdh3

03-31-2011, 04:32 AM

piercethevale

04-01-2011, 03:12 PM

The symbology has been there since time began Rabbi Dobins work proved to me that the Kabalah and the Sabian [Wheeler, Jones Rudhyar] symbols have been right at the same place since creation. This was discovered by reading Dobons work on a Kababalistic interpretation that He did on the chapter of Habbuk.
The symbols were in the same places and in the same orders at the time Of Jesus/Yeashuas' life...and they are still currently in their proper places and will continue to be...and they certainly are not associated with the sidereal.
Dane Rudhyar was born to do it. Marc should be praised for taking the initiative to find Elsie and get the job done. But, Dane...now there was a true Renaissance Man if ever the 20th century had one.
Dane referred to himself as a 'SEED MAN"...he knew that the 20th century was to be an important time to introduce original knowledge back to Humanity. I sense that Rudhyar was being 'guided' and at times it more seems as if He was literally directed. He certainly knew what I would require to make some needed associations and subsequent understandings...which is uncanny.
I am starting to see that Dane pushed a few symbols more into symbols associated with Theosophic lore...Aquarius 30* is certainly one...He in fact is implying the "Great White Lodge" and none too subtly either.
Mark my words...Rudhyars book will be the one that endures.
I suggest, most sincerely, that every astrologer get busy in earnest with their knowing and understanding the symbols according to Dane.

Dane!

sdh3

04-04-2011, 10:21 AM

Mark my words...Rudhyars book will be the one that endures. I suggest that every get busy in earnest with their knowing and understanding the symbols according to Dane.

While his book may (or may not) be the "one that endures", it's not at all clear that Rudhyar would have advised that his interpretations be studied first, foremost, or to the exclusion of others. I quote him from "An Astrological Mandala."

"It certainly is not for me to judge the interpretations of the Sabian symbols that are now publicly available. I feel none are quite adequate and many of them seem to me at least partially biased by considerations that are extraneous to the symbols themselves; I am sure, however, that a similar criticism will be leveled at the approach and the interpretations which this book presents. There is room for many approaches and for several levels of interpretation. My main purpose in writing is to point out what is actually implied in such a set of symbols, involved in its interpretation, and possible in terms of its use at the oracular level. I also want to show in what sense the Sabian set can be compared to the I Ching and other cyclic series of symbols."

Give that Rudhyar himself doesn't place his interpretations on a pedestal, why would anyone interested in obtaining an in-depth understanding of the symbols not also want and need to study the interpretations and theory given by Jones, at a minimum, along with Bovee and Roche for good measure?

thoughtfully
sdh3

piercethevale

04-04-2011, 12:33 PM

While his book may (or may not) be the "one that endures", it's not at all clear that Rudhyar would have advised that his interpretations be studied first, foremost, or to the exclusion of others. I quote him from "An Astrological Mandala."

"It certainly is not for me to judge the interpretations of the Sabian symbols that are now publicly available. I feel none are quite adequate and many of them seem to me at least partially biased by considerations that are extraneous to the symbols themselves; I am sure, however, that a similar criticism will be leveled at the approach and the interpretations which this book presents. There is room for many approaches and for several levels of interpretation. My main purpose in writing is to point out what is actually implied in such a set of symbols, involved in its interpretation, and possible in terms of its use at the oracular level. I also want to show in what sense the Sabian set can be compared to the I Ching and other cyclic series of symbols."

Give that Rudhyar himself doesn't place his interpretations on a pedestal, why would anyone interested in obtaining an in-depth understanding of the symbols not also want and need to study the interpretations and theory given by Jones, at a minimum, along with Bovee and Roche for good measure?

thoughtfully
sdh3

...I've had enough proof using Rudhyars symbols to know that they work. I've found his few changes from Jones were right on and also clearer and what I more readily related to. It may be because we both studied a great deal of the Theosophists and their knowledge and theories that I readily relate to Rudhyar. I haven't heard of Roche...[seems like another pops up every 4 or 5 mos] and I've been meaning to get a hold of some writing by Bovee as that was my grandmothers maiden name and I'm curious how closely related we may be and whether there are similar ways of thinking.
As long as the author of whatever other book that comes along on the Sabians doesn't start radically veering from Elsies visions...it has to be symbolically interpreted the same or nearly so. Dane didn't always look for mundane definitions...in fact he rarely did...he saw them as high spiritual priciples...and the symbolism is exactly that for people that are far advanced in spiritual development. The symbols that I ascertained for the Arabic Parts I derived from my birth chart of Jesus shows that every symbol found for major Parts I utilized was not only applicable for what was know of the Mans life but was the best possible of all 360 symbols for that Part. His part of
Catastrophe at the 28th of Virgo for example which is defined as "Challenging religious and political power structures"...or take his Part of Increase and Benifits @the 3rd of Gemini which is a symbol of Santa Claus filling stockings as fast as He can...and Jesus was known to always come up with whatever he needed. Money for a ferryman, food, wine. He was the penultimate "Good Boy" that, I figure, was foremost favored for that sort of Cosmic Benevolence and bestowals. Our his Part of Fortune at the 19th of Pisces "A Master Instructs His Disciple"...well, we could add an 'S' to that symbol but to do what Goldsmith did and change that symbol the way he did is unconscionable and devious...What other symbol could possibly be that of the Part of Fortune of Jesus/Yeshua.
Also His Planets...look at His Venus at the 7th degree of Pisces; ": ILLUMINED BY A SHAFT OF LIGHT, A LARGE CROSS LIES ON ROCKS SURROUNDED BY SEA MIST.
KEYNOTE: The spiritual blessing which strengthens individuals who, happen what may, stand uncompromisingly for their own truth."...and how fitting the phrase in the text of the definition, by Rudhyar, about realizing oneself to be a 'Son of God'...?

The symbols and definitions have also jived with what I've been able to apply to Kabbalistic knowledge when called for and have been more than satisfactory they've been mind blowingly accurate and so far I've recorded 100% mutual validation between the two sources of knowledge.
And the symbols have been successfully been applied to the Nodes during significant historical events. I'm presently occupying myself with more study on that in retrospect as to get more of a basis to accelerate immediate forecasts due to the apprehension concerning the next few years...and I'm certainly not going to 'change horses' in the middle of that stream.
If you want to study some one else symbols..be my guest..but if they are not basically the symbols Elsie saw and Jones and Rudhyar defined then they can't be called 'Sabian Symbols" and they and any thread pertaining to them shouldn't be in this particular sub-fo

piercethevale

04-05-2011, 09:25 PM

To further clarify and validate my statement above as to the Sabian Symbols being unique and of singular integrity I offer this from Astrowiki which is their sole entry as too what is defined as the "Sabian Symbols":

"The Sabian symbols are 360 short pithy descriptions which are associated with the 360 degrees of the zodiac, so that each degree had its own symbolic meaning. The symbols were developed by the astrologer Marc Edmund Jones (1888-1980). Jones himself wrote that he discovered them in 1925 "with the help of clairvoyant powers". Dane Rudhyar played a major role in introducing the symbols to a wider public." Astrowiki

It has, in fact, described the "Sabian Symbols": "As those symbols developed by Marc Edmond Jones and introduced to a wider public by Dane Rudhyar."

I see no one elses name except that of Elsie Wheeler whom is given the credit for being the one ...and only one...that could "see" the symbols and therefore describe the symbol.

As far as I know, I'm the first astrologer to note, take accounts of and publish evidence and explanation that the "Sabian Symbols" do in fact affect the Arabic Parts, and that the symbolism illustrates the activating 'Cosmic Principle' that one must assume, employ or express to actually utilize said Part.
If not for the book of Rudhyars', that I've been studying since 1984, I would not have recognized the validity of the birth chart of Jesus that I've produced and it certainly would have been forgotten by me and lost.

That my birth chart of Jesus/Yeshua has yet to gain any real recognition by the astrological community is of little matter here as my publishing and forum writings on the validity of the Sabian Symbols affect produced through the Arabic Parts has gained great recognition and a number of the more advanced and reputable astrologers in the community and here too at this forum have accepted this and many are now utilizing the practice. I also see many have gained interest in chart axis interpretation due to my efforts in writing about it and promoting it. Again, I have to give the real credit to Rudhyar for these achievements.

As I kind of sense that it is being inferred that there is a bit of a belittling attitude towards Rudhyar, from the above statement, that Jones had his book in publication by 1953 and Rudhyars' wasn't in print untill 1974. I must say that, that was exactly one of my points about why Rudhyars version is the better of the two. In that Rudhyar spent most of the rest of his life studying them before He published and also because He was more studied in symbolism and the symbolism of the occult and esoteric in particular. I think Rudhyar would've loved to had a hundred years or two before he gave them to the world, but as He was nearing the end of His life I believe He had to publish what he had and also give himself a little time afterwards to see to their nurturing and growth among the astrological community.
Was it Loa Tze or Confucius that said one life time was way too little time to have gotten to study the I Ching? I'm quite sure that the same could be said about the Sabian Symbols as they were seen by Elsie Wheeler.
If there be another astrological scholar with the intellectual credentials of Rudhyar that publishes and produces 'another take' on the "Sabian Symbols" that also has spent at least near as many years as Rudhyar did interpreting and defining them I'll give their book of symbols some serious consideration.