[HELP] Strange Mars

[5th]

Hi all, I'm new coming.
I have a quetion. 1 degree leo mars and 30 degree libra saturn-moon conjuction forms square aspect. Square aspect is 90 degrees apart & 3 signs apart. But leo and libra is 2 signs apart. Is it still square aspect?
Thanks!

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[johan]

Interesting question 5th!
The answer is no!

The nature of the aspects is determined by the mutual relations between the signs where both planets are.
Why is for example a square a sharp conflict aspect?While it is always been formed by planets in two signs which are in mutual conflicting elements.For example:is planet A in a firesign,planet B is 90 degrees,so 3 signs further,in a watersign.The relation is water and fire!That does not work well,cause ór the water extuingishes the fire,ór the fire heats up the fire to steam.Examples:Aries and Cancer,Leo and Scorpio,Sagittarius and Pisces.
The elements earth and fire don't harmonise eather:the earth extuingishes the fire or the fire bakes the earth to stone.Examples:Taurus and Leo,Virgo and Sagittarius,Capricorn and Aries.
Same for air and earth;air blows away the earth or the earths covers the air which leads to suffocation.Examples:Gemini and Virgo,Libra and Capricorn,Aquarius and Taurus.
Finally water and air will give a stormy sea or showers!For example Cancer and Libra,Scorpio and Aquarius,Pisces and Gemini.

An aspect is only an aspect,if the signs in which the planets are,make that aspect
Even if their mutual distance is exactly 90 degrees,but their signs don't make that square,that angle is not valid as a square.
It isn't about the number of degrees according to Cocker,but about the difference of the nature of the elements.

Why is the trine the most harmonic aspect?While the planets are in the same element!

5th,look for yourself how the relation between the elements are with a sextile and an opposition.

And you can look up the astrological meaning of Mars square Moon/Saturn and if it is valid to you.I am pretty convinced it is not!

Welcome to the forum!

[5th]

Thanks for your wise answer and warm welcome, johan! You're so kind.
I know trine and sextile are harmony, square and opposite are not. You told me why now. When I read about the features of Mars-Moon & Mars-Saturn, I can't beleive it's features of my character. It's completely different from my character and of course unacceptable. But their degree position and sign relation seems conflict. If it is niether square nor sextile, what is it on earth? Can I take it as no aspect exist? Or sth else?
And I think the 1 degree and 30 degree position is somewhat special. Does it strengthen or weaken the planet? Mars in fire sign should be strong, but 1 degree Leo Mars is the transform from weak (Cancer) to strong, it's strange; Libra is ruled by Venus, and Venus should be somewhat similar as Moon for their loving nature, and Moon in 30 degree Libra is from strong to weak (Scorpio) , another strange degree, ahaa? To Saturn, the same, from its exaltation Libra to Scorpio, which is much weakened. Oh, so strange!

[Lunar Pisces]

No, it is a square. It cannot be anything else, and there's no such thing as "no aspect at all" in astrology. So I am afraid Johan, while very enthusiastic, is not quite correct. Signs are very, very important...well, essential to understanding aspects, but sign alone doesn't define an aspect. Degrees and the actual mathematical angle they form counts too. Major aspects have wider orbs than minor ones, so this does allow from time to time for aspects to form outside of the normal signs difference associated with that aspect.

Let's say you have a square within orb but outside of sign. It is a square - it is within the orb that creates that specific 90 degree tension associated with that square. However, the tension between these two signs would not manifest the same as if you had two signs with the same modality, i.e. cardinal, fixed, or mutable. With the same modality within a squaring, planets are on more even footing. When you have mixed modality, one sign usually has a slight advantage, causing the other sign to be more afflicted by the tension of the square. Normally, fixed succumbs to cardinal, and mutable succumbs to either cardinal or fixed.

However, I need to point out to a couple of nuances to this.

First off, in regards to your square, seeing the 30th degree is also the 0 degree of the following sign, there should be no confusion about this here. You can intrepret this as a square between Leo and Scorpio. You can even include your Pluto, because it is orb conjunct with your Saturn and moon, because conjunct planets act together always, regardless of difference in sign. It's just there will be some Libran influence on that end of this square. Also, there's going to be some amount of "fated" energy due to be the 29th degree (you may wish to do some reading up on that). Seeing that end of this square combines a duo sign influence plus the 29th degree, it will be an atypical square anyhow. Atypical, but still a square.

The other thing -that is not directly related to your chart at the moment, but I wish to clarify, seeing I've brought it up before in other threads - is regarding aspect configurations. Now with a specific type of aspect configuration that relies both on aspects and modality, let's say a mutable t-square, you do need to have both the right orbs and the right modality. In these cases with configurations, modality (or element, as with grand trines, or polarity, as with multiple oppisitions) is perhaps more important that precise orbs. If you have a case where you have a configuration that lacks the right modality, element or polarity, you still would have a configuration - just an atypical one that would not manifest in the same way as the the "standard" configurations.

I know this is a lot of info, but I hope this helps.

[Lunar Pisces]

ANother thing I wish to mention:

While the fact that the standard, "cookie-cutter" interpretations you have seen for isolated Mars-Sat and Mars-moon squares may not "feel" right to you right off the bat, I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly. These interpretations do tend to be overly genrealized, and with such a complicated aspect as this one, you may find it too easy to think they don't apply to you. But I must encourage you to keep an broader mindset about this, as these interpreations don't stem from nothing.

It could be a number of things that may be preventing you from seeing how you do manifest some of those traits:

- planets on the 20th degree don't always manifest is obvlious ways, and it often takes the native time and growth to become more aware of their influence

- this apsect involves too very subjective and vulnerable personal planets (Mars and moon) with one very critical and defensive planet (Saturn - actually, two, if you include your Pluto by conjunction). You are simply going to find it hard to be objective with this aspect. Whenever anything touches this aspect that makes either Mars or moon feel threaten, Saturn will come in a get dismissive or criticial (i.e., words liek "unacceptable" might pop up). Add Plutonian energy to that, and you may find you get rather resentful when you feel "exposed" in ways that make you uncomfortable.

- Moreover, this aspect involves your ASC. This means it has a lot or weight in terms of your self image. With Saturn squaring you ASC, you may find it very diffciult to confront attributes about yourself that you dislike without feeling a severe blown to your sense of self-worth. Saturn, again, tends to be dismissive or critical with defensive, so be mindful if you find yourself acting in those ways.

- Lastly, this is a tense aspect. Add that to everything else above, and you can understand why astrolgoers often say squares are challenging aspects. They're not bad, but they do require us to work. There's a lot of growth to be found in this particular aspect that you have , and you should not resist it, even if it is uncomfortable. Therefore, resist closing your mind to new insight or information, even if at first it doesn't "feel" right.

[wilsontc]

5th,

To confuse things even further ;) , both Lunar and Johan are correct! Planets can be in aspect by SIGN and by DEGREE. Aspects by sign (which Johan mentions) are usually associated with ancient/traditional astrology, which usually does not recognize aspects by degree. Modern astrology usually focuses on aspect by degree (which Lunar mentions), but also gives some mention of the older, traditional aspect by sign method. This usually is done by mentioning the degree as being MOST important (e.g., a square by degree IS a square) but that the sign can have SOME effect (e.g., a square by degree and sign is stronger than a square by degree only). Personally, this modern astrological method makes the most sense to me...but the final decision is up to you! :)

Giving both sides,

Tim

[johan]

Signs are very, very important...well, essential to understanding aspects, but sign alone doesn't define an aspect. Degrees and the actual mathematical angle they form counts too.

This usually is done by mentioning the degree as being MOST important (e.g., a square by degree IS a square) but that the sign can have SOME effect (e.g., a square by degree and sign is stronger than a square by degree only). Personally, this modern astrological method makes the most sense to me...

These are the views of Lunar and Tim,but I disagree.A square is a square,while the signs belong to elements who are not going along together.It's more the other way around of what Lunar says:the mathematical angle alone doesn't define the aspect,but the signs(and the elements to which these signs belong)count too,this is essential for the validation of the square!And it is not a traditional way of astrology versus a modern way of astrology,like Tim says,it just don't work as a square.

And no,it isn't a sextile eather,Mars and Moon/Saturn are just unaspected.

How important and decisive the signs are,is shown by this:When a planet,still in the same house,enters the sign that is also on the cusp of the next house,this planet starts to show his influence in that next house,even if the planet is not yet in that next house-dragged along by that sign in that house.

Sorry to be so defensive on this matter,but this issue of elements and signs and their relation to aspects are very essential in my opinion,as shown by you not feeling this square is valid.

[5th]

Thanks for all replies!

There's too much information, I feel a little puzzled, ahaa...

Lunar Pisces

Your reply is very helpful, I try to understand it. Now I even couldn't know whether it's a fate or illusion that square forms as you say, but obviously I feel the stress of Moon-Saturn-Pluto conjunction because it makes me very doubtful or easy-broken to relations, and that seems more related to Libran things but not Scorpion things. When it comes to relations, a mingle of Libran & Scorpion feel can be seen, but more like Libran. Also Moon refers to mother, the image of her is somewhat difficlut to me. Quite sad, ahaa? But not bad to extreme, at least we leave together. And if the square is exactly formed by Mars, there must be lots of quarrals and fights in my relations, but it's not. I just feel not right and walk away. The discord of relations is what I really hate for, that's all.

wilsontc

You're so kind. I don't want to say whether it's a right or wrong square aspect, but only an aspect whether real or dreamy. Maybe I'm so dreamy, haa? Because NOW the Pluto is in conjunction to my Neptune, another sad aspect...

johan

Now I feel the aspect doesn't exist, but like Lunar Pisces said, I'm not sure how I feel tomorrow. Maybe the aspect is always there but I can't feel it obviously, that's even much better than it does not exit, isn't it?

[5th]

Lunar Pisces

There are aspect configurations as you mentioned, that's interesting. If consider MC as planet, my chart may include some common aspect configurations such as Stellium, Multiple opposition, T-Square, Grand Trine, Kite, Greater Octile Triangle, Rectangle. And MC is in most of them, isn't it? Maybe MC is somewhat special for me... :?:

[wilsontc]

5th,

Something else to consider is you have Mars (being, also action) trine (energy goes very easily with) Jupiter (expansion) AND Mars square (energy needs to be combined with) Saturn (duty, also structure). This suggests you can take expansive AND structured actions at the same time. This could be another reason why you can always find "another way" to take actions.

Looking at other things in your chart,

Tim

[5th]

Thanks, wilsontc, you're right, I should notice other things about it.

Mars also have two trines, but I'm blind to it! Maybe easy to get is easy to forget, ahaa? ASC conjunction works out obviously. It seems that I'm LONGLASTING in work & play. AND the trines get me creative in my actions. Though my energy is powerful, it's also easy to control at the same time.

Mars conjunct ASC and rule MC at the same time. MC ruler is important in one's chart. Oh Mars! Strange...

[johan]

Well,there is so much to say about a chart,and rulers of houses are also interesting.Not to mention the difference between applying and separating aspects!
You will have to found out for yourself if the square works!
About rulers of houses.I know a woman who has Taurus H6,and Venus is in H6.She is a hair-dresser(ruler of 6(daily work,profession)!

[5th]

Venus in Taurus is good. but in H6 is not so good, it's like Venus in Virgo and fall.

So her Venus, if in Taurus though H6, should still be very good. H6 is strengthened then, cause Venus in her ruler sign! And her health condition should be well, art related job is also indicated.

And my venus is in Virgo to fall but in H2, like in Taurus. It's still quite weak. Maybe the sign is more influentual than house? I don't know. In the age ruled by Venus, I was very unhappy. :( And when it comes to Sun age, huge difference occurs. Sun in ruler sign and exaltation house. Thanks to my Sun~~ :)

[Frisiangal]

I feel the stress of Moon-Saturn-Pluto conjunction because it makes me very doubtful or easy-broken to relations, and that seems more related to Libran things but not Scorpion things. When it comes to relations, a mingle of Libran & Scorpion feel can be seen, but more like Libran. Also Moon refers to mother, the image of her is somewhat difficlut to me. Quite sad, ahaa? But not bad to extreme, at least we leave together. And if the square is exactly formed by Mars, there must be lots of quarrals and fights in my relations, but it's not. I just feel not right and walk away. The discord of relations is what I really hate for, that's all.



I'm of the school of thought that counts out of sign aspects legitimate, especially those as close as your Mars to Moon-Saturn-Pluto. What you write above would seem to confirm that you DO feel the tension of this square aspect within yourself. The Moon represents not only the image you carry of your mother, who might be a quiet but overpowering force AS ARE YOU, but also how you react in general to outer influences. Saturn with separating Moon (i.e. moon in front) is one of respect towards and, in Libra, agreement with one's elders and/or authority and/or traditional patterns; with Pluto this is deeply ingrained within a generation of persons trying to alter those patterns in order to express their own thoughts and ideas freely.
Mars in Leo can show very self-ish ( in its positive sense), dominant traits with a tendancy to flare up and dramatise situations, but in the 12th house this is difficult to express outwardly. Excellent for theatre, acting, or behind the scene directorship but difficult to contain in everyday situations. The Moon-Saturn-Pluto may subtley but forcibly keep this tendancy under control by showing the other and preferable side of any situation. Yet one needs Mars' energy to actively express one's self and this is especially so for children attempting to find their own way in the world. Add to this that you are a 1st house Sun in Leo, and it would seem that you will need to seek and find (also 12th house!) that energy in order to meet and compete with the power inherent in the Pluto-Moon-Saturn aspect.

If you do not recognise such a challenge within yourself, then an out of sign aspect means less than I thought it did, having lived my whole life with an out of sign Saturn-Neptune square that has defined the difference between, as well as combination of, elusiveness and reality :wink:

F.

[5th]

Thanks Frisiangal for your professional reply and insight. Very helpful!

My Mars seemed so poor, both in H12--the poor house for Mars, and square to Moon-Saturn-Pluto Stellium (overpowering? maybe overwhelming better). Now I don't know how to deal with my next coming Mars age! Bless me to survive~~~ I'm unprepared!

This unpleasant Stellium also indicates the inner character of myself, though. That's why I'm precocious, understanding to others' thought but trying to conceal my own thoughts. It also makes me caculate too much and finally hard to express them all. I can't image what such Stellium square Mars comes out! It must be very poor?! But at least I'm proud of my icily cool and self-control. From this point, the square seems overpowering, too.

If you do not recognise such a challenge within yourself, then an out of sign aspect means less than I thought it did, having lived my whole life with an out of sign Saturn-Neptune square that has defined the difference between, as well as combination of, elusiveness and reality

Well, can I take "an out of sign aspect" as aspect without sign modality? :?:

If it is, your square should be similar condition to mine, isn't it? Then I'll look into my square and hope to realize the turth.

By the way, Mars has conjuction to fixed star ALUDRA, which contacted with charitable, faithful heart, violent and dangerous passions, good qualities, etc. My poor Mars seem not helpless, ahaa? :D

[johan]

Looks like I am standing alone here with the non-valid square Mars/Moon/Saturn her fifth!But reading what you write about it:

And if the square is exactly formed by Mars, there must be lots of quarrals and fights in my relations, but it's not. I just feel not right and walk away

Yes,that would be the idea.Mars so close to the AC together with this conflicting aspect and if the separating aspect with the Moon was valid,you would notice in your reactions,your emotions(Moon).A square is a sharp,conflicting(and challenging)aspect.

Frisiangal,this elusiveness and reality would have given lots of conflicts,it would be have driven to the edge.I am much of a dreamer which also collides sometimes with reality,but there is no square between this planets in my natal chart.With much respect to your knowledge of astrology,I still disagree this counts as a square,and while it is an applying aspect,one would search the battle,Mars would have his say in this square!It would not be kept inside,unnoticable for others,no way!

Again apologizing for being so defensive,but I think it is an essential point here! :)

[5th]

Well, there's a ture fact to support you, johan -- I never fight a battle as I remember. It doesn't mean I'm coward, but I think there're too many ways to solve the problem peacefully. I even think that keeping atmosphere smooth is sophisticated skill and war itself admits inability. Courage does not mean fight in my world. From this point, I have to say it's completely Libran ways but not Scorpion! When I have no hope to get along with someone,(it often occurs) I just stop that stupid relation peacefully to avoid further hurt. :oops: And it doesn't mean I'm easy to get along with either! Most of the time I prefer alone in my corner and if I have to relate, the worst result is silent end. Pretty sad, isn't it? Maybe it's because my Virgo Venus, love to use my brain muscle... :idea:

[wilsontc]

5th,

Continuing the discussion of Mars being square and trine, you said:
When I have no hope to get along with someone,(it often occurs) I just stop that stupid relation peacefully to avoid further hurt.

This could be interpreted as "When I have no hope to get along with someone,(it often occurs)" [Mars square Saturn] I just stop that stupid relation peacefully [Mars trine Jupiter]. So when you are stopped (Saturn), you open up to others (Jupiter).

Having the cake and eating it too,

Tim

[johan]

When I have no hope to get along with someone,(it often occurs)" [Mars square Saturn

Sorry Tim,but this is way too simple.This is not a description of Mars squaring.A square would challenge it,it will rouse fights,quarrels.

I had a girlfriend who also has Venus square Uranus,and I recognize things 5th say in relation with this.Also,the Moon/Saturn conjunction gives a need for controlling feelings,a nice form given to the emotions.This sentence you quoted is much much more applicable to Moon/Saturn and definitely not Mars square Saturn!

[/i]

[wilsontc]

johan,

...this is way too simple.This is not a description of Mars squaring.A square would challenge it,it will rouse fights,quarrels.

Perhaps with just any Saturn, but consider that this is Libra (relationships) modifying Saturn, so it is reasonable that relationships are somehow involved. And consider that this is not just ANY Mars square Saturn. This is a Mars square Saturn which ALSO has a Mars trine Jupiter. So the "normal" Saturn situation is "smoothed over" by Jupiter's optimistic outlook.

Still simplifying,

Tim

[johan]

No Tim,I disagree.

If the square was valid(but it is not),it would work out.Mars would go for the fight,the square would be seen,and not be totally covered up by the trine with Jupiter!

Reading what you wrote fifth,I would like to quote out of an astrologybook:the separating conjunction Moon/Saturn.Keep in mind that it is just an example,just to clarify the relation between these two planets;it is not a dogma,just an example (a little bit into extremes),to get a feeling of the relation between the two planets.It can work out in many ways(houseplacements,signs,aspects to other planets and more!)

The separating conjunction

By a separating conjunction the Moon is in front:the behaviour looks spontaneous,but it is more politeness.Such a person cuts off the primitive passive sympathy,the solidarity with other people,the instinctive-humane.One goes inside the ivory tower,there is a wall of glass.Saturn makes that one like to be alone,one isolates the Moon-emotional life to something that is pure individual,it is no one else's business.They cultivate their own soul,live with an aristocratic style.This type of person moves himself stately and worthy,it can already be seen in the cradle:it is beneith their dignity to cry for a new diper!They are serious,controlled,taciturn,affable and courteous.They can perfectly converse without showing themselves,real stoics.When they are in pain,offended or in big need:they never show it.
They have a strong binding to their mother(Moon),because Saturn lenghtens this binding.This binding does not hold confidentiality,but a same attitude of life,an understanding without words.
Often in their lives they have periods of weariness of life and melancholy,they see themselves as a lonely,tragic figure,high above the mass.

You wrote:"thanks for your wise answer and warm welcome,you are very kind",and that you "like to be alone in the corner most of the time";in my opinion examples of this aspect.

Perhaps with just any Saturn, but consider that this is Libra (relationships) modifying Saturn, so it is reasonable that relationships are somehow involved
Yes,relationships are involved,with the Moon/Saturn conjunction,not with Mars!

Not difficultising,but truthifying,

Johan

PS,
Fifth,I had a girlfriend who shared the applying square with Uranus,in different signs,Venus in H1,and Uranus in H5.Reading what you say about Venus,their are in my opinion similarities.If you like I will write down my thoughts in this thread how in my opinion this worked out for her,maybe you recognize something.

Be well fifth!

[5th]

wilsontc & johan

Maybe differing from the aspects is easy to become some illusions, ahaa? So many aspects to consider, so much illusion to be convinced?! But I do feel the strong force of Moon-Saturn, like johan quoted, as very forceful influence. Even if the Mars square accounts, this conjunction is still most powerful in my chart. Now I'm more cleared about Moon's Libran nature but not Scorpion.

Back to Mars, as its conjunction to ASC and Leo sign, it can be a part of my ASC... BUT to my experience, the ruler of ASC is much more forceful than its conjunctions, even the closest conjunction. My ASC ruler Sun is more important to me, working together with Mars force.

It seemed that my Mars nature is too far from square Moon-Saturn, and don't forget the powerful Pluto! Mars square to Pluto is known to be extremely violent and forceful, together with Mars square to Moon-Saturn, it would sound like KILLER JACK, isn't it? :lol: But fortunately I'm not that terrible~~ :mrgreen: With this deep doubt, I came here to make sure what it really is. And now I'm clear that these square doesn't work, at least not obviously! :idea: I don't know how these squares really work out will be, but I'm sure it's not my character according to astrology description!

[franklin taylor]

Hi 5th,
Welcome to the forum. "When in doubt count the degrees" is what the course work I have studied says. It certainly is that in this instance. A great speculation though is that you have got to have limits somewhere though. 8 degrees orb is allowed so 8 degrees either side of 1 degrees Scorpio is still considered a square The closer to 90 degrees the more powerful. My own Moon Square Saturn has both of these planets placed in Water Signs, and this square is as real as anything (and has been) in my life. My own Sun Square Neptune is almost perfectly square moreso than my Moon /Saturn aspect. I have only two pairs of planetary squares in my chart and I feel that I have been able to really discern their presence well. Whereas some one with as many as 10+ squares in their charts may not discern one challenge from another as reddily. Again, welcome 5th.
Take Care
Franklin

[5th]

johan

OK, it's a good idea. After all, fall Virgo Venus' best use is to recognize... In my experience, Venus square Uranus is pretty sad for relationship! Cause nothing lasts!

franklin taylor

Thanks for your double welcome! In your lion image it seems we share Sun sign, ahhaa?

My chart presents 10 square, what does it mean? Maybe the more square, the more challenge, the more challenge, the more trouble and achievement? You can see my MC in so many aspect...

A great speculation though is that you have got to have limits somewhere though.

It's to the point, franklin! What do you think these challeging aspect really mean? Maybe you can help me to recognize the limits? :roll:

[5th]

Maybe we can check the validity of Mars square in another way -- ASC. If the Mars square is valid, then the ASC square must be the same. They are in conjunction and share most of aspects.

ASC is for my image to the world. the Moon-Saturn-Pluto square may make me quite challeged by emotion, sorrow and instinct. Then I should be extremely sad and cannot get away from the hopeless shadow. But the opposite is ture! I can find myself happy and trusted, (though I still prefer alone, alone enough with my optimistic & positive nature -- Sagittarius Jupiter) creative and resourceful(Uranus). Maybe the Jupiter-Uranus trine works out more obviously. I can be peaceful with others, my friends enjoy turn to me to get away from their troubles or have a laugh for a short time, so from this point I'm out of the ASC square to Moon-Saturn-Pluto description again!

[wilsontc]

5th,

Regardless of what all this means "astrologically", as long as you are "...happy and trusted...optimistic & positive nature...creative and resourceful..." you are using your energy in a way that develops and grows your life. That's what a knowledge of astrology can help you do, but, however you get it in your life, the "peace of mind" you describe is a nice thing to have.

Mostly non-astrologically,

Tim

[5th]

wilsontc: Thanks for your kind words! I appreciate it!

Now I suddenly realize that challegeing aspects such as opposite and square differs a lot! Opposite aspect can be felt, seen and realized easily, but square aspect is like a iceberg, you can feel and see and realize it until you nearly crash it! When I look back the way I pass, I think some period proved this. Though nearly all Mars' aspect can cause temper, square aspect's temper is silent for me. Silent anger is also anger! Maybe that's why I'm attracted by the violent or cruel PC Games such as Silent Hill etc. (Maybe most PC games are somewhat cruel) It's pretty sad...

MAY subconscious violence get controlled all the time! AND I think that's easy for me, because once Mars-Moon pike my nervous, Mars-Saturn depress it, Mars-Pluto makes it an extreme pain, Mars-Jupiter ease that pain, Mars-Uranus push me to change and aware a new way.

[Frisiangal]

[quote]Looks like I am standing alone here with the non-valid square Mars/Moon/Saturn her fifth! But reading what you write about it

You're not alone. Johan. Karen Hamaker thinks the same way and does not work with out-of-sign aspects.

And if the square is exactly formed by Mars, there must be lots of quarrals and fights in my relations, but it's not. I just feel not right and walk away

Yes,that would be the idea.Mars so close to the AC together with this conflicting aspect and if the separating aspect with the Moon was valid,you would notice in your reactions,your emotions(Moon).A square is a sharp,conflicting(and challenging)aspect.

Mars in Leo is ego orientated. But in the 12th house it's not outwardly apparent. It gives in to, or is under the influence of the stellium in Libra with the Moon. Moon is automatic reaction to the Libra ways, Mars inactive energy of the Leo ways.
IMO, that's the square conflict. Without finding the energy to change habits of the Moon, self- realisation of a Sun in Leo cannot occur. There will eventually be an identity crisis. Mars is the soldier that acts and works to carry out the Sun general's will.

Frisiangal,this elusiveness and reality would have given lots of conflicts,it would be have driven to the edge.I am much of a dreamer which also collides sometimes with reality,but there is no square between this planets in my natal chart.

I have Saturn in Gemini 'square' Neptune in Libra. A conflict in thought !
I stopped dreaming when I eventually saw the dangling carrots of words for what they really were :wink:. I have always had difficulty with the concepts within orthodox religion and faith. I had no faith in anyone/anything, became my own councellor.( My Gemini elder sister actually called me an atheist last week!!).
Then astrology crossed my path (Uranus trine Neptune) and opened up a world of truth ( for me), of which the elusiveness cannot be tangibly grasped, explained or perceived. Sec. Progr. Saturn reached exact square, and sec. progr. Neptune turned direct ! I now have complete faith but don't ask me to explain in what or who :lol:

With much respect to your knowledge of astrology,I still disagree this counts as a square,and while it is an applying aspect,one would search the battle,Mars would have his say in this square!It would not be kept inside,unnoticable for others,no way!

I totally agree with you if Mars was in an open house where it could show its Leo force. But it's in a so-called 'hidden' house. IMO that makes all the difference.

I disagree with many astro. concepts myself, so understand how you feel ! My perception of astrology has been influenced by practical experience; as a Taurean Sun, that's been my way to learn. Your preception of astrology will be shown and experienced in yours. That's how it should be. IMO.

Again apologizing for being so defensive,but I think it is an essential point here! :)

No aplogies necessary. You are standing up for your own beliefs and expressing them; that isn't being defensive. :)

F.

[johan]

You're not alone. Johan. Karen Hamaker thinks the same way and does not work with out-of-sign aspects.

But on the forum I am alone(not with astrologers like Dobereiner and Hamaker).

Mars in Leo is ego orientated. But in the 12th house it's not outwardly apparent.
I totally agree with you if Mars was in an open house where it could show its Leo force. But it's in a so-called 'hidden' house. IMO that makes all the difference.

IMO planets are hidden,caught in the 12th house if they were higher up.But it is close to the AC(My Pluto is caught in H12,it is not close to the AC)
I think this energetic Mars will show in the person of fifth,but not squaring with Moon and Saturn because there is no square!Other aspects of that Mars with other planets will be seen.

I have Saturn in Gemini 'square' Neptune in Libra. A conflict in thought
I do not know your chart to see what other aspects can cause a conflict in thoughts,so I cannot comment on this.

No apologies necessary. You are standing up for your own beliefs and expressing them; that isn't being defensive.
Thanks for understanding Fries meisje :lol:

Fifth,I will come back to write about what I think of the applying square Venus/Uranus,but it can take a few days or weeks.Very busy right now and going on a holiday soon.

[5th]

Fifth,I will come back to write about what I think of the applying square Venus/Uranus,but it can take a few days or weeks.Very busy right now and going on a holiday soon.

Thanks, johan! I think your comment can be useful. I'll look forword to it.

After all, I also look forword to the invalidity of Mars square, honestly! :lol: But the turth is always first!

PS According to some Astrologers, the Mars is in the end of H12 and can be regarded as in H1. Then I think it's more like what I am, endless engergy and alway a DOER and soaring libido. :mrgreen:

And according to some Astrologer, there's another way to divide house--take the WHOLE LEO SIGN as H1, Virgo sign as H2, Libra H3, Sco H4, Sag H5. Then my Mars can be regarded as in H1 without doubt, and Saturn-Pluto-Moon in H3. Well, who knows?! And I think IF Moon is in H3, it can be more like myself, cause H3 Moon is somewhat like Moon in Gemini. My mother (Moon) is too far from staying at home (H4 Moon), she enjoy learning too much and love communicating too much!

[Draco]

Johan,

You're not alone. Johan. Karen Hamaker thinks the same way and does not work with out-of-sign aspects.

But on the forum I am alone.

No Johan, you are not alone. I also understand that trines are based on element, squares are based on modality, sextiles upon gender.

In the thread 'Please tell me what you see!', by Lissilu, I tell her:

For two planets to be in trine, and yes, here we go again (which refers to the argument taking place here), it is necessary for them to be in the same element. There are four types of trines, Fire, Earth, Air and Water trines. Similarly, there are four types of grand trines, but as you have Mars in Earth and Venus and the Moon in Water, then there cannot be considered to be a grand trine, because you can't have a grand trine which is two thirds Water and one part Earth. A grand trine must needs be within one element, such is the nature of harmony, which is what trines represent.

So you see, you are not alone Johan.

Draco :wink:

[johan]

Hi Draco,

Yes,what you wrote about the trine and the grand trine,I totally agree.
But I don't exactly understand modality and gender in this context.
(keep in mind that I am not originally English speaking).
But I assume,that you agree on my first reply in this thread,that squares,oppositions,sextiles etc. are working that way considering the various elements,and not only mathematical.In my opinion very important!

[5th]

Hi, all, I read something about Leo Mars, and find that if Mars was badly afflicted, heart disease may be assured, because Leo rules heart in man's body.
BUT in fact, my heart is very well. NO disease, AND very strong.
This may be a proof for the invalidity of Mars square? I don't know if it is right this time...

--from <The Message of the Stars>
Mars in Leo and well-aspected gives an active, industrious and honest nature, fearless and independent in all dealings with others, a keen sense of honor and responsibility, hence makes one eminently fitted to occupy a position of trust either in a public or private concern. These people are enthusiastic and energetic either in work or play, lovers of sport and a good time generally. They are very ardent in their admiration of the opposite sex and woo the object of their affections with an intensity that carries all before it, overrides all obstacles and brings the matter to a speedy consummation. These people never beat about the bush but say what they mean in a manner that is often extremely embarrassing in its directness. They are strong and forceful in their arguments either for or against that which they believe or disbelieve and therefore they not infrequently arouse opposition on the part of those who differ from them. They are very venturesome and often take a pride in risk either in the pursuit of pleasure or business. When Mars is afflicted in Leo it gives a fiery, violent temper and a liability to fever inflammatory diseases, palpitation of the heart, hallucinations, biliousness. There is also danger of inordinate affection, trouble in courtship, loss of children and loss through speculations. An afflicted Mars in Leo gives the same daring as when well-aspected but the danger of accident is greater because the person with the afflicted planets becomes foolhardy and reckless.

[5th]

In addition, the transiting Mars is in Cancer30degree now, and I can feel bad these days, sometimes upset, unhappy, and depressive. Tomorrow Mars will be in Leo and forms exact conjunction with my natal Mars. Maybe I can feel much better later, hahaa! OH, then the transiting Mars and transiting Saturn can form conjunction in H1, near my Sun.
Transiting Mars in Cancer does not show the ill things that Mars-Pluto-Saturn-Moon Square dooms to be. There were no fights, no crimes, no violent sex, but some quarrels and horror movies really. I was surprised why I could quarrel with my room mate this week, because I was definitely very friendly in normal days. My temper is very quiet and hardly wave up and down, if there was any. Ahaa, that's all real Mars square can do? OH!!! I was disappoited! Maybe this is another proof of the invalidity of natal Mars square?

[Arian Maverick]

But I don't exactly understand modality and gender in this context.

Johan,

Element, Modality, and Gender refer to one of the many qualities of a sign.

Element: Fire (Aries, Leo, Sagittarius), Earth (Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn), Air (Gemini, Libra, Aquarius) and Water (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces)

Modality: Cardinal (Aries/Libra, Cancer/Capricorn), Fixed (Taurus/Scorpio, Leo/Aquarius), and Mutable (Gemini/Sagittarius, Virgo/Pisces)

Gender: Masculine (Aries/Libra, Gemini/Sagittarius, Leo/Aquarius) and Feminine (Taurus/Scorpio, Cancer/Capricorn, and Virgo/Pisces)

As the lists below illustrate, there is a definite pattern in assigning element, modality, and gender to a sign:

Element: There are four elements in the twelve signs of the zodiac; 12/4 = 3 signs of any particular element

Aries: Fire
Taurus: Earth
Gemini: Air
Cancer: Water
Leo: Fire
Virgo: Earth
Libra: Air
Scorpio: Water
Sagittarius: Fire
Capricorn: Earth
Aquarius: Air
Pisces: Water

Modality: There are three modalities in the twelve signs of the zodiac; 12/3 = 4 signs of any particular modality

Aries: Cardinal
Taurus: Fixed
Gemini: Mutable
Cancer: Cardinal
Leo: Fixed
Virgo: Mutable
Libra: Cardinal
Scorpio: Fixed
Sagittarius: Mutable
Capricorn: Cardinal
Aquarius: Fixed
Pisces: Mutable

Gender: There are two genders in the twelve signs of the zodiac; 12/2 = 6 signs of any particular gender

Aries: Masculine
Taurus: Feminine
Gemini: Masculine
Cancer: Feminine
Leo: Masculine
Virgo: Feminine
Libra: Masculine
Scorpio: Feminine
Sagittarius: Masculine
Capricorn: Feminine
Aquarius: Masculine
Pisces: Feminine

The combined list looks like this:

Aries: Fire, Cardinal, Masculine
Taurus: Earth, Fixed, Feminine
Gemini: Air, Mutable, Masculine
Cancer: Water, Cardinal, Feminine
Leo: Fire, Fixed, Masculine
Virgo: Earth, Mutable, Feminine
Libra: Air, Cardinal, Masculine
Scorpio: Water, Fixed, Feminine
Sagittarius: Fire, Mutable, Masculine
Capricorn: Earth, Cardinal, Feminine
Aquarius: Air, Fixed, Masculine
Pisces: Water, Mutable, Feminine

Now let us return to Draco's post and see how this all fits together:

No Johan, you are not alone. I also understand that trines are based on element, squares are based on modality, sextiles upon gender.

A trine aspect equals 120 degrees and is 1/3 of a circle (360 degrees/3 = 120 degrees). We have already established the pattern of elements: There are four elements in the twelve signs of the zodiac, which can be expressed as the fraction 4/12. This is may be reduced to 1/3.

A square aspect equals 90 degrees and is 1/4 of a circle (360 degrees/4 = 90 degrees). We have already established the pattern of modalities: There are three modalities in the twelve signs of the zodiac, which can be expressed as the fraction 3/12. This may be reduced to 1/4.

A sextile aspect equals 60 degrees and is 1/6 of a circle (360 degrees /6 = 60 degrees). We have already established the pattern of genders: There are two genders in the twelve signs of the zodiac, which can be expressed as the fraction 2/12. This may be reduced to 1/6.

I hope this guide helps you and others better understand the concept of element, modality, and gender ;)

Arian Maverick

[Lorielle]

Not sure that my Mars is strange, or just difficult. :) It is in the 5th house at 2 degrees Cancer. Trines my Sun and Neptune... It is the only planet that I have that is out of bounds.

[johan]

Thanks Beth,very clear!
It is quite annoying that I don'master the English language completely,thanks for being so clear!
To me for example the square is a square not only by mathematics,but by the difference of elements.

5th,No it is not that simple,having no heartproblems is not the validation of that.I will come back to say something about this later and your transits,but I don't have much time right now.

[5th]

OH, so strange! My last post disappeared!

??????

I have to type again...

Thank you johan, your remarks worth waiting. I can post my reply at weekend.

[johan]

Hi,fifth.
How are you?

How did the latest transits for you worked out?I am ashamed that I have not responded to your post earlier,while I made that promise:o But I haven't forgotten about it!:D Have you learned more about astrology yet?

Hope to hear from you soon,
Greetings Johan

If you respond I will fulfill my promise.

[lilllybelle]

Johan, I just read through this thread. I was really surprised that more people didn't agree with you. I've never gave much thought to squares that existed by degree but not by sign. I'm surprised that we are in the minority on this one. Well diferent strokes for diferent fokes. I mean if someone told me that they had a square with a 20 degree orb and they were aware of its prescence in their life, then I would say they have a square. I would never use such a wide orb in my chart, but I would honor it if someone else said that such a wide square was active in their life. L

[5th]

Hi, johan! Really glad to meet you again! I'm sooooo happy! haaaaaaa...

Never mind, I'm still waiting for your reply. It's just a game, so playing game can never be late, ahaa?

My trasit is sooooooo interesting these days! I have my first foreign travell and first air flight in July 18th, and I have a great great great holiday in Australia with my nice nice nice school mates. OH, when I'm back home, I really feel a rebirth, a new life.

When I look back those days that I had in Australia, I even surprise how it could be sooooo good. Even to me, Venus and Mercury in perfectionist Virgo, I feel it perfect. Perfect!!!

You may feel puzzled why I was so changed now, ahaa? I think the reason is I find many many people really lovely. I said I'd like to be alone but never feel lonely. But now I say I also like people but never feel crowded.

Greetings.

[5th]

AND when now I find some psychic abilities on me. I wonder why. I don't like to be so weird. BUT...my experience tell me it is ture. And my mother talked to me about her feel on me. She feel I'm a enigma. Also my close friends tell me so. Maybe it is also because my strange Mars in H12? Or H12 ruler Moon conjunction to Saturn in H4 and sextile Nepture?

Recently I read something about Numerology, and I'm surprised that it is pointed out clearly by Lifepath 7 and Destiny 7. OH MY! Too weird!

[unukalhai]

The sign relationship in aspect analysis is only valid for 30-degree multiple (12th harmonic) aspects. I think many astrologers who only use major 12th harmonic aspects assume sign relationship is truely what drives the aspects.

I would disagree. I consider aspects as part of a process, a process related to the waveform of the energy relationship. While it is true that 12th harmonic aspects do coincide with the meanings of the zodiacal signs, this demonstrates that the zodiac is properly laid out, not that aspects derive thier power from the zodiac.

A square represents a turning point, a conflict, a change of direction not because the signs are at odds, but because the natural sinusoidal wave of energy actually takes a change in direction 90 degrees into the waveform.

In the case of a square:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fr/d/d5/Sinus_dephase_90.gif

We have two waveforms 90 degrees out of phase. When one waveform is at its maximum deviation from zero, the other waveform is at zero. This shows the extreme differences of energy levels being expressed.

In the case of an opposition:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fr/c/c8/Sinus_en_opos_phase.gif
We have two waveforms 180 degrees out of phase. When one waveform is at full deviation, the other is also at full deviation, but of the opposite polarity. Yet, when the waveforms come to zero amplitude, they meet up. Here we see the power of the opposition: complimentary, yet opposite forces at work, with a similar middle meeting point, much like two signs in opposition of in the zodiac.

When one begins to use aspects that are not divisible by 30, and realizes the power of these aspects is nothing to scoff at, one further questions the reality of the signs forming the power of the aspects. The semi-square, an extremely powerful 8th harmonic aspect, could take place between two adjacent signs or between two signs with a third sign in the middle (such as with the sextile). The sesquiquadrate could take place between signs normally trine or quincunx to eachother, etc etc.

in the same respect, when one considers sidereal positions, and realizes that an "out of sign" aspect in the tropical zodac is often an "in-sign" aspect in the sidereal zodiac, one again questions which one may be right.

After much consideration of the technical methodology behind aspects, I have to side with Dane Rudhyar's approach to astrological aspects, which he outlines in his book "Astrological Aspects: A Process Oriented Approach" which is a truely amazing piece of work. I highly recommend anyone interested in the study of astrological aspects pick up a copy, as it will open your mind to a whole new understanding of aspects, as well as provide exceptional explainations of the minor aspects. If only this material was not still protected by copyright, I would take the time to digitize the entire work.

This is not to say that when considering an aspect, that sign relationships should be ruled out completely. in fact, they are the next-most-important consideration when determining how an aspect will play out. If one has a square by waveform relationship that is actually a sextile by sign relationship, one will still be driven to action and forced to reconcile the differences of the two objects, but the process will tend to play out in a more organized, coherent manner due to the balanced, organized nature of the sign energies being in natural sextile relation.

One who has a square by wave process and a sextile by sign process may consider themselves lucky, as the conflict between the objects in question may be easier to resolve, and the tension produced tends to be mitigated by the sign's sextile relationship. On the other hand, when the waveform process square is a quincunx by sign, the excessive uneasyness and thought-provoking power of the quincucx can add to the tension, forcing the native to constantly consider and analyze the differences expressed by the square waveform aspect. Remember that the quincunx is a mental aspect, as the native is driven to tidy up all loose ends before the oppositional process, which forces the reconcilation of opposite, yet equal, forces.

That said, it is important to realize that both the aspect by degrees as well as the aspect by sign interact. I personally consider the aspect by degree more important, but the sign relationship is nothing to scoff at either. One can only gain a true understand of the process at work by considering both factors.

I suppose this whole subject is as debateable as sidereal vs tropical or this-house-system vs that-house-system, but I figured I'd provide my take on the matter :)

[5th]

Hi, unukalhai. Thanks for your insights! So much information, Somewhat confused. Ahaa...

I want to read Dane Rudhyar's approach to astrological aspects, if I could read it. I'm not sure if I could understand that. Not smart enough:P

I think we can think the aspect in another way--ruler planet. I mean planet relationship and yin-yang relationship. Such as yang Sun-yang Jupiter-yang Mars, yang Mercury-yang Venus-yang Saturn, yin Moon-yin Mars-yin Jupiter, yin Venus-yin Mercury-yin Saturn for Fire, Air, Water, Earth sign. AND further, the relationship of yin and yang, planet and planet. Maybe this can explain aspected planets better? I don't know... Just guess.

30-degree multiple or not does not affect this rule. So we say, any aspect can form by it. We can take Mars square as inharmony angle in harmony planets, we also can take the square as another new aspect, a relationship between new born yang Sun and Old aged yang Venus. They are both yang, so they are harmony, they are in two extreme age, so they are inharmony. Such as a baby boy to grand grand father, both male, different experience. BUT in fact they are similar. So I can't see any conflict it would be.

Thanks again.

[Howl]

Wow, unukalhai, that's certainly a new take (for me!) on the topic of aspects! Thank you, I found it thought provoking indeed. Now I am trying to picture the wavelengths for my out-of-sign aspects :p

How would a 'loose' aspect, like a wide square, look? Like the square you've illustrated below, but with an inexact match between maximum and minimum points between the two energies? Interesting. Would you consider wider aspects less 'intense' for this reason? Still 'something like a square' but not exactly?

Basically I'm trying to conceptualise the difference between a loose in-sign square, and a tight out-of-sign square (where squaring planets trine by signs). Based on the assumption that I share with you (that aspects by degrees are more significant than aspects by sign) I would expect the former to be more difficult to reconcile, but experienced less intensely, and the latter to be more intensely experienced, but perhaps easier to reconcile due to the easier sign relationship.

I realise that there are different approaches to intepreting, and indeed recognising aspects, but what you've said below seems to offer a richer explanation of why some may consider the degrees to be more important.

I'd be very interested to hear what you think about aspect orbs and strengths :D

[johan]

Hi fifth!

Good to hear you enjoyed your vacation in Australia and your fellow-students!Have you considered what transits/progressions making you feel more happy now?Curious to hear your opinion for that!The last time I heard from you Mars was about to enter your first house,right?
I won a dart-tournament(playing darts is a hobby of me)when Venus was in conjunction with my MC!I find it interesting of astrology to look back than when Venus was also conjunct my MC to see what happened then.

Well lillybelle and unukalhai.I only can say that in practice a square just doesn't work if it is out of sign,while if there is even a wider orb but in the right sign it does!While the different elements are so important.I am not impressed to see some graphics,I like to see what works in practice.And I have done my own little research on this matter.That is not to say I am only a student of astrology,knowing so little yet,but eager to learn.But we can debate on this forever,and anyone has to find out for him/herself.

Greetings Johan

[lilllybelle]

Johan, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I have the same point of view that you have. I agree with your previous post. L.

[Howl]

Hi Johan,

I think you might have meant me, rather than Lillybelle. No disrespect intended towards your own astrological understandings, it's just that I tend to view aspects the other way round ;) and unukalhai's illustrations are one more way of thinking about what aspects are, and how they work. It's a new concept for me and exciting for that reason. I would agree with you entirely that each person can only draw their own conclusions from experiences and research, and from what they may gain through the understandings of others. In practice, I am still deciding what 'out-of-sign' aspects are for me :)
.

[johan]

Hihi,I was aware Lillybelle,you agreed with me,I was just addressing to you.Ofcourse this is no attack for Unukalhai,like he said it is all debateable just providing his take on the matter,I was just defending my point of view here.Interesting for everyone to see in their chart and others if a square that is only mathematical(and ofcourse other aspects)and not a square by element works.If I were you Howl,I would also be interested by Unukalhai's post.So investigate and let me know!

[5th]

Johan, I thought about why... Though I'm not so sure, I want to share my point of view.

I think Mars is very interesting in my natal chart. First, it is the ruler of Aries and Scorpio, the 4th and 9th sign in my chart. Second, it is in conjunction with my Ascendant. Third, it is in 1st sign in my chart. Fourth, it is in cusp, 0 degree Leo. Fifth, fire sign planet Mars, Sun, Jupiter are all in fire sign in my chart, with Mars, Sun in Leo and Jupiter in Sag, Sun and Jupiter in their own sign, and Mars trine Jupiter, and Sun, Nepturn, MC fire grand trine.

I'd like to consider Mars in 1st sign as H1, whole house division. Because Mars is the ruler of 4th and 9th sign, with trine to Jupiter and Uranus, and I find things related to H4 and H9 goes smooth and easy for me. My family provide me so much resource and joy(H4), my higher education is successful and my foreign travall feels so great, even surprised myself and beyond my imagination. I enjoy learning foreign language and foreign culture, which may be a hopeless suffer to most fellow students(H9). And all this can be seen and known by everyone around me, not in secretive way at all(Mars H12).

Maybe this is how to explan my foreign luck in natal chart. I can't see any clue in transitting chart. My vocation lasted 2 weeks, and when I'm back home, Mars is in H2 already.

Though I know little about Western Astrology, I get used to Chinese Astrology well. Compared with 10 main planets of Western Astrology, Chinese Astrology have 14 main planets, and more than 200 stars if the minor ones considered. Because I'm more familiar with my own culture, I can predict and explain my experience by Chinese Astrology better. There're many many clues to know it:P

But Western Astrology can help me to understand myself better in another way.

I said I'm somewhat psychic and I don't know why, I just like weird things because myself is weird. And that's why others take me as enigma?

[5th]

To make it more clear----If show Decans Sign Chart, it's another look. Whole house division.

Mars and Jupiter are in their sign's first decan, and Sun in third decan. Then Mars, Jupiter and Sun forms Grand Trine in Decans Chart.

[5th]

AND I find this is an interesting way to interprete natal chart. Just my way.

First, Whole House Division.

Second, find planet in its own sign or own house. In this chart, Sun, Mercury, Jupiter in their own sign, and Mars, Venus in their own house.

Third, find planet in exaltation, detriment and fall in the same way.

Fourth, omit 3 outer planet Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. Take Saturn as Aquarius ruler, Jupiter Pisces, Mars Scorpio.

Fifth, look at 12 house ruler and planets in 12 house.

Sixth, check gain or lose of things related to 12 house by house ruler planet(sign ruler). In this chart, Mars and Sun in H1, both to gain things of H1, and then I know I have a big personality. H2 the same. H8 ruler Jupiter in its own sign, gain to things of H8. and so on...

[johan]

fifth,that is a lot of info for me.I would like to study it some more,and also your progressed chart.
I am not a supporter of the wholehouse division,nor saturn as ruler of aquarius and mars as ruler of scorpio.
But I see that the ruler of the ninth house is in the fifth house,love for foreign culture,and co-ruler of the ninth conjunct the ascendant.
But I am too much a student to see the whole picture yet,fifth.I will study your chart some more to see if I can get a more complete picture!

[5th]

I had enough with it. Nearly whenever I'm unconscious, strange sense soar in my mind. I'm sure I'm not mad at all.

The sense is about different people's last moments of their lives. Male and female, young and old, native and foreign... The sense appears clearly and smoothly like a movie, with dialog and partner, with particular suroundings, and it's always the last moments of the movie, I mean one person die. Then the strange sense is over. And I know it's none of the movie clips I have ever seen in TV or PC. This can occur whenever I'm unconscious, such as moments before asleep, dream, daytime or some time I don't think anything at all.

[freedomlover]

To 5th,

It sounds to me like you may be seeing bits from your past lives. I've had this happen, although not always the "last scene". You are seeing this for a reason - something you need to learn from it. Perhaps, since it is the "last scene" you are seeing, it is to show you that you don't really die, that you have lived many lives, etc. - something along those lines. I have a friend that sees this, too, and in dreams, and it is always the "last scene". He is a staunch traditional "Christian", and adamantly denies reincarnation. I think he is being shown otherwise. Anyway, hope this helps.

[5th]

Hi freedomlover, I know someone must say it in your way, before I'd post my strange sense. Well... I just know it...

Pretty sad, ahaa? I really don't want to be like this way. BUT I have to go on...

Thanks for your kindness!

AND to know it by Numerology, double 7 matters. 7 lifepath and 7 destiny. Maybe 7 is fated to be so weird! Ahaaaa!!!

[Firemoon]

There is an important distinction to be made between an 'in-sign' and an 'out-of-sign' aspect. Aspect theory, according to modern schools of astrology, are a function of degree relationship and not only sign. In earlier theory, this was not the case. There were (are;)) even methods where ALL planets in Aries were considered square to ALL planets in both Cancer and Capricorn, for example. Today, we do make the distinction (unless you adhere to an extremely narrow methodology, as Johan apparently does) between in-sign and out-of-sign. An out-of-sign aspect, because of the element discrepency mentioned by Johan, will feel and manifest differently than one which is in-element. But it is still a square and must be delineated as such. Not to do so, especially in a tight orb, like this one, is to simply ignore an important symbolic dynamic.

And consider this; in this example direction motion will carry both that Saturn and that Moon into Scorpio before the subject reaches his/her first birthday. In addition, that Pluto will arrive at around 3 years of age. All three factors will then be in a pretty tight square, in element, in the important formative years. And believe me, if you think that a Mars-Saturn AND a Mars-PLUTO square will not be felt, you're making a grave error!! I cannot stress this enough. This is another reason why it simply cannot be ignored, simply based on element theory or some classical edict.

[5th]

Hi, Firemoon! Thanks for your comments!

"And consider this; in this example direction motion will carry both that Saturn and that Moon into Scorpio before the subject reaches his/her first birthday. In addition, that Pluto will arrive at around 3 years of age. All three factors will then be in a pretty tight square, in element, in the important formative years. "

Well, this happened when I'm too little, 3 years old? Then I was in kindergarten, nothing special... nothing too bad, too good, or too impressive. It seems that even in-sign square is not so forceful? I don't know:P Maybe I was too little to take action, ahaaa...

If I could feel it really well, there should be impressive scars of this square? BUT I can't feel Mars-Pluto or -Saturn or -Moon work out obviously. Even compared to Venus-Uranus squre, with a much more loose orb, I feel later one very obviously but former one not so. As astrology theory described, Mars-Pluto suqare is so forceful and violent, but I'm not like that at all and I really hate to take violent action or fight like a beast; Mars-Saturn is so difficult to carry out personal action, but the oppsite is true, I even often guild others to take right action for their personal development; Mars-Moon is so easy to be angery, BUT I find myself try to calm down others when they are angery. So I think myself do not fit to these description at all. If I'm like the description of Mars square, I would not ask a question like "yes or not square".

[Firemoon]

Hi 5th...

Another name for Pluto is Hades. Hades in ancient Greek means something close to "Hidden". Because Saturn is the planet of Discipline and Structure, a good part of how he manifests is by cutting off and boxing in. Just because you can take exagerrated, one-dimensional, cook-book delineations and deny them does not mean that this dynamic doesn't have symbolic bearing on your inner life. We use the word UNconscious to make clear that it is not conscious.

How do these squares manifest? Sometimes it does not lie right on the surface. That's a sign that understanding them more deeply will precipitate transformation in your perception, ESPECIALLY when Pluto is involved. Not all manifestations of these squares are blatantly negative. There is a great deal of power here, which can be used to create enormous change on numerous levels. I can assure you that in consultation with someone you trust, what the dynamics are would emerge very quickly along with their vast potential.

Please also notice that there is a Void of Water in your horoscope, making a strong symbolic suggestion about the feeling function. In addition, Neptune forms a Sextile to the Libra stellium and an out-of-sign quincunx to the Mars, creating a wedge pattern. Neptune symbolically obscures, it doubts, it negates and it can throw everything into a symbolic fog at times.

As if that weren't enough, your Draconic Pluto is in a conjunction to your Tropical Mars, emphasizing that 'hidden' quality mentioned above.

Believe me, despite Johan's well-meaning assertions, you wouldn't find a serious, well-trained, humanistic, psychologically-oriented astrologer who would tell you these are not squares.


FM

[5th]

UNconscious----well, a good word. My unconscious world is very very interesting to me! Can you interpret my Mars more clearly? I can't understand my unconsciousness so clearly... Though every night I have dream, dream like endless movie play in my mind, I don't know whether I live in a dream or in reality. I'd rather stay in my dream! At least not so boring. At least I can fly and walk through walls in my dream, and be any form I'd like to. When I find consciousness is not enough, I'd wish a dream then get it. Life is much more interesting in dream. Maybe I live a too boring life... And Neptune is also very interesting to me, because I feel it must play a very important part in my life. With void of water, many things cannot expressed by affection, and even myself wonder if I really need affection...or be affectional!

[Firemoon]

Hi 5th...

Well, interpreting Mars all by itself would be a little like ordering a nice, spicy fish soup and getting a bowl full of just chilies to bite into!:D

Still, if you can 'hear' it in context with the rest of your horoscope, it may have value. Obviously Mars is in an important position here. Conjunct the Asc, it is in the first degree of a Fire sign and keeps both house and sign company with a dignified Sun. Yet it is in the 12th and in the already mentioned quincunx to Neptune, so it is not merely coincidence that you speak of calibration of your dream life! Neptune is calling on Mars archetypally to work with it, which work requires constant and fine adjustment.

Consider the following questions for deeper insight into the inner wiring these symbols represent:

How do you get pissed off?
What's your 'burn rate'?
What remains when it subsides?

How do you access true creativity in your life?
Is it satisfying?
If not, what's holding it back?
If so, how can you augment it?

What themes emerge most strongly in your dream life?
What figures?
What plots?

How do you access the 'trance state' (either light or heavy) in your waking consciousness?
What does that serve?!?

Obviously these are not questions to be answered all here. But gaining insight to these issues can precipitate enormous growth.

I'd recommend all the books on Lucid Dreaming by Laberge, if you haven't read them already. Take it seriously and practice. As someone with Neptune in 1 and conjunct Spica, I can attest to the beauty, transcendence and exstacy of breaking through to new levels of consciousness in the dream world. And appropriate to the Leo energies, it IS a heroic journey.

Enjoy it!



FM

[5th]

Well, your question is interesting. I try to answer----

How do you get pissed off?----I jump out of the matter and solve in my way.
What's your 'burn rate'?----Anger? I rarely burn, I'd rather argue with myself.
What remains when it subsides?----Do another meditation, and get another ridiculous answer.

How do you access true creativity in your life?----Too many ways, anytime when I want to improve something. Usually a task given by others or myself.
Is it satisfying?----Yeah! Always!
If not, what's holding it back?
If so, how can you augment it?----Time matters, period matters. I find my inner self always change a lot after some period, seems like a nature.

What themes emerge most strongly in your dream life?----Death. Deaths of many many people, including myself. Like a movie in my mind.
What figures?----Movies can have many figures, so I can't speak it out one by one. But there must be figure of myself, my strangers and knowns; someone seems like myself, and his or her partners.
What plots?----Too many plots, from visit in peasant's cottage to party in Napoleon's palace, from daily contact to deadly fight, but most impressive movie endings are about death, like this--one player die or no hope to live on, then movie is over.

How do you access the 'trance state' (either light or heavy) in your waking consciousness?----Whenever I think nothing, do nothing or to be nothing. Then movie play, finish. Many of them play in reality later on, or later later on. Some of them play past experience and I realise deeper meaning like thunder attack. Some reveal clues of my present things.
What does that serve?!?----I think it serves my understanding of my past, now and future, my inner self and other people's inner selves.

I'd recommend all the books on Lucid Dreaming by Laberge----Oh thank you for your shining vocabulary "Lucid Dreaming" ! I like it! Get another new vocabulary~~

[5th]

Hi, charmvirgo. I agree, sign matters. After all, Venus rules Libra and Venus is considered next to Jupiter's goodness.

[5th]

You know I'm not mad... But I doubt it.

I know I'm lying on bed. You know I'm not sick. BUT...

This week, again, I feel myself walk around in my dorm when other room mates are sleeping, and then I walk back to my bed. Then I play game with my leg up and down, though I know my quilt is flat and my leg is sleeping with my whole body.

Last month, I have sleep at home, I feel myself walk through a wall, then I fly in my room, look over my body lying on bed from the ceiling, then I come back to the bed and wake up.

And many many strange things like that...

[5th]

Haaa... Right! Key word for Libra is Relate and for Leo is Create, then this square is so interesting--It relates unconcious tension between Mars and Pluto-Saturn-Moon, and it also relates dream state of H12 and sensation of H4. It creates my strange personality, too!

And refer to transformation, well, I'm transforming intensely now. This year, transiting Pluto is conjunction to Natal Neptune, and transiting Saturn just passed from my natal Sun. Then in the end of this year, transiting Jupiter will pass through Natal Jupiter, the second time. A busy year~~

I wonder if Pluto-Neptune conjunction cause so many strange sensations recently... Some time I even wonder if my soul seperates from my body?! And why I'm always channeling? And I wonder what will happen when transiting Pluto pass through Neptune in the end of this year? Oh, so many, too many strange things this year. Some time I can't believe who am I, where am I and why am I... I'm changing so fast and it surprised, scared myself. In another words, transformation happen again and again and again, like a betterfly come out from its pupa again and again and again!

[5th]

I just check Trasiting Pluto's track, oh well, it comes back and fro, and Pluto-Neptune conjunction will last many years! It seems that I have to be in such strange state for a long long time! Neptune is exact conjunction to Gal. Center.

[5th]

Some examples of my expirence----

This summer, when I have vocation in Australia, I walked in the street and saw some lonely flowers aside. I feel something should be there--butterfly. Then I made a wish to see a butterfly, though in chilly Astralian winter. Half a hour later, when I sat on the stone and think nothing, I naturally look up the sky, a butterfly came down from heaven, hovering around me, then went back. This is the only butterfly I saw in Astralia.

When I was at home, for my birthday, I suddenly felt extremely depressed that day, too depressed to live any longer. Then I pushed the window and wanted to jump off desprately. I looked down from 10th floor and next to end it all. At that moment, a big wasp swung under my sight suddenly and I was so scared to setp back. Then I felt how stupid I was. I felt calm and easy to receive such a birthday present.

Days before, I walked back to my dorm with a bag on my shoulder. I felt nothing and then have a clear vision of myself, a vision casting from above, to see my body walking on with a bag on the shoulder, looks good.

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

[citra]

Hello everyone, please allow me come back to this old topic in last year. I'm the same person with another user ID citra instead of 5th.

Recently I studied Vedic Astrology, and find my Mars is debilitated in sign Cancer in House 1. As mostly spoken, my Mars square aspect is real in this Astrology system. The square aspect is read as follows:

Mars Square Saturn
Your ability to be cautious and slow helps you achieve success in your work. You are ambitious and are able to shoulder heavy responsibility. You may be prone to giving in to certain negative emotions at times.

Mars Square Moon
A square position of Mars with Moon could occasionally cause an emotional disturbance which you will be able to weather through your calm nature. You are also extremely sensitive.

Mars Square Pluto
A square position of Mars with Pluto grants you ambition, which also results in your advancement. You have a talent to analyse a prospective project and then carry it to completion. However, you should guard against your inclination to become overly aggressive.

[citra]

And Sun, Mecury, Jupiter are not in their own signs in Vedic Astrology.

In Western Astrology no planet in watery sign in my chart, but in Vedic Astrology stronge watery traits indicated. Ascendant, Mars and Sun in Cancer; Jupiter, Uranus and Ketu in Scorpio.

[Caprising]

Wow, what a chart!, Citra, I wouldn't be looking for the aspects so much as the conjunctions in your natal chart. Moon conjunct saturn and pluto!!! definitely a strong spiritual placement. Also, uranus conjunct jupiter in sagg, in opposition to Chiron, its no wonder that you have a "gift", although many people won't see your dreams or visions that way. It sounds like you have been astral travelling among other things, no wonder the reality of being stuck in a body seems boring, have you looked at your progressed chart with transits added in? Many people experience similar dreams/astral travelling like yours, we are taught that " it shoudn't be happening and if it does then there is something abnormal with you" Which is pure ****. It's a natural human ability, the church had the inquisition to deny us the knowlege of these experiences. Most indiginous tribes had a medicine man to enter the spiritual realms, and often they had to take certain "medicinal preparations" to enter, you don't need to take anything by the sound of it, maybe you would like to read up on the experiences that you have, and gain some understanding of how to best utilize them .

[citra]

Hi, Caprising! I'm glad you can read my chart in this way. I have astral projection experience indeed. It souds like a joke, but in my dream I live in a totally different world, if it could be spoken as spirital realm. It can be very scary though. Because I have to relate to some "spiritual beings" like ghost or some other things which can appear and vanish freely in my strange dreams.
In my transit chart Pluto is in close conjuntion with Nep. It can strengthen those strange experience seriously. Even some time I have a dream that I walk though walls to see other people do their things in other rooms, from one room to another, then come back, see my room mates sleeping in their bed, and I come back to my sleeping body then have another absurd dream or wake up if I have to.

[Caprising]

I don't want to derail the thread so I will pm you

[loonymoon]

I have Aries Saturn square Leo Sun and not only it seems to be valid, it also seems to be a very central aspect in my life.

I also have Mars-Saturn square (by sign too). Saturn squaring Mars frustrates its energy, all the qualities associated with Mars. It can manifest in different ways:

* The individual over-compensates for the frustrated Mars qualities - they can be over-assertive, aggressive, even violent, engage in power-struggles, try to dominate others, be invloved in many fights and quarrels, want their will (Mars) implemented without limitations (Saturn) etc.

* Just the opposite - the individual experiences great difficulty in expressing Mars qualities - they might feel they can never get what they want, sometimes even don't know or admit what they want, have a difficulty asserting themselves, shy away from conflict, feel they are weak, sometimes can even become victims of violence, feel a lot of limitations (Saturn) on their will (Mars), having difficulty to act in favor of their interests, sometimes because they just don't feel deserving.

* Any mix of the above manifestations.

* Integration of Mars and Saturn energies (after some work is done to bridge the conflict between them) and using Saturn qualities - realism, persistence, hard work, structure, planning - in support of Mars qualities to achieve their goals and wishes.

[citra]

Hi, loonymoon. Your read is very interesting. And to me according to your reading, I can not extinguish what the mixture is. Because it seems that when the female planet Moon mix, and the mysterous Nep aspect at the same time, the hard and harsh traits of these square aspects smooth a lot. And the Pluto's join make this more and more secretive and confusing.

[Moulin]

UNconscious----well, a good word. My unconscious world is very very interesting to me! Can you interpret my Mars more clearly? I can't understand my unconsciousness so clearly... Though every night I have dream, dream like endless movie play in my mind, I don't know whether I live in a dream or in reality. I'd rather stay in my dream! At least not so boring. At least I can fly and walk through walls in my dream, and be any form I'd like to. When I find consciousness is not enough, I'd wish a dream then get it. Life is much more interesting in dream. Maybe I live a too boring life... And Neptune is also very interesting to me, because I feel it must play a very important part in my life. With void of water, many things cannot expressed by affection, and even myself wonder if I really need affection...or be affectional!


Hi 5th :)

I can totally appreciate your 'dreams' and some of them could easily be past life. Sadly l don't know which aspects in a chart show this but when l was a child l had a few different dreams of past lives. One dream l had, exactly the same for 16 nights in a row and it did not resemble my present 8 years of life in any way. In fact it was very disturbing.

Astral travel is where you can fly and be any shape or form, and see your surroundings and other surroundings whilst in a sub conscious yet conscious state.

[citra]

Hello moulin, then according to your definition, my experience is not exactly astral travelling. But it can be absurd too. Because I just have some strange dreams so often, but rarely have those things when I'm awake. Some time I just see myself do my things from other place like daydreaming. And I daydream a lot. When I concentrate thinking on one thing, I can subconsciously feel and remember another thing when I did it long long time ago if I must depress it consciously. And often subconciously I predict some thing just happen next few hours or days when I'll experience it again at that time. How ridiculous it is!

[Moulin]

:)
For me, what you are experiencing is being in tune with your higher self and this gives you to ability to access different states and emotions simultaneously. Preidction is also linked to being in touch with your psychic/higher self. I think you are doing a combination of astral travelling and all of the above... don't be scared or confused. It's quite natural and l would be lost without my connection. Try to find out more about it; go deeper into it and use it wisely and positively. It will be the best friend and wisest counsel you will have in life :)
Peace, Moulin

Hello moulin, then according to your definition, my experience is not exactly astral travelling. But it can be absurd too. Because I just have some strange dreams so often, but rarely have those things when I'm awake. Some time I just see myself do my things from other place like daydreaming. And I daydream a lot. When I concentrate thinking on one thing, I can subconsciously feel and remember another thing when I did it long long time ago if I must depress it consciously. And often subconciously I predict some thing just happen next few hours or days when I'll experience it again at that time. How ridiculous it is!

[citra]

Thanks Moulin! Now I think it's just simple and boring things of everyday life. So I will be always like that ridiculous... Ahaha

[Moulin]

My pleasure Citra. I'm always happy to help out where l can, as so many help me :)