Orbs?

[LesMiserables]

something i haven't looked into yet, which is very important, is orbs.

i understand that astro.com is a bit giving in the aspects because of there orbs.

what i would like to know, is what are generaly considered an 'ok' for an aspect based on orbs?

please tell me..


what is usually the maximum orbs given for:

trines
sextiles
squares
conjunctions
oppositions

and i wouldn't mind knowing the other aspects - semi-sextile, semi-square, etc.

i know astrologers debate this, but surely some one or everyone here can give me a basic idea/guide line of the orbs for those aspects.

also, on the natal charts from astro, what does it mean when the orb has a - sign next to it?

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Lol hey Les,

I generally cut down orbs to 60- 70% on astro. So that's about 7-8 degrees for conj. opp. square and trine, and about 5 to 6 for sextiles. Not all aspects are equal though, even if in orb. The closer the aspect the more important it is. Also a separating aspect is weaker than an applying one. An applying one is when the planets are moving into an aspect. A separating one is when they made the aspect before you were born and are moving away from it.

So a close applying aspect is the strongest.

I think the minus signs show separating aspects... but check on the charts to see if this is right. If in doubt, if you click on advanced tables, they have their aspects with little 's' and 'a' which is easier to figure out.

I virtually ignore semi-sextile and semi square. You might like to look at quintiles for extra craziness!

There is also the stellium-orb principle, which is that if lots of planets are together, they act as one giant super conjunction, even if individually by orb some are not in conjunction. Eg Mercury at 1 degrees Aries, Venus at 6 degrees Aries, Mars at 12 degree Aries and Sun at 18 degrees, and moon at 24 Aries would all be considered conjunct, but with greater leeway in interpretation. You're focusing on the Arian nature of all the planets rather than the simple cookbook interpretations of Mercury conjunct Moon for instance... (That would be unwise.) I put Mars in the middle there on purpose to show how in rulership it can act as an even stronger integrator, binding the other planets together. If Venus was in the middle, it would have been a weaker stellium conjunction pattern as Venus is in detriment in Aries.

Also, say a trine to one planet, would be interpreted in a wider sense as a trine to the Arian energy. (Not a trine to ALL the planets separately.) And as Mars is in the middle and is stronger, as a trine to Mars.

Hope that helps! Sorry I keep editing so much :)

[LesMiserables]

Lol hey Les,

I generally cut down orbs to 60- 70% on astro. The closer the aspect the more important it is. Also a separating aspect is weaker than an applying one. An applying one is when the planets are moving into an aspect. A separating one is when they made the aspect before you were born and are moving away from it.

So a close applying aspect is the strongest.

I think the minus signs show separating aspects... but check on the charts to see if this is right. If in doubt, if you click on advanced tables, they have their aspects with little 's' and 'a' which is easier to figure out.

I virtually ignore semi-sextile and semi square. You might like to look at quintiles for extra craziness!
i wouldn't ignore them, i think they are accurate, well, atleast the Quincunx is. for me atleast.

i understood the s, and a sign, its just the minus/ sign i don't understnad, because some of the s signs didn';t have a minus next to them. and so did some of the 'A' signs.

and yeh, i understand the closer the orbs are the more stronger that aspect will feel. but i wan't a guide line or an idea. i think some aspects tend to not need as tight orbs as the others.

[The_Sundance_Kid]

I think the S and As and the minuses don't match up when some planets involved are retrograde. Or something.

And yeah the quincunx I think is important too, I don't understand it though! I don't think the other two are important though, and I don't really use the sesquiquadrate or whatever it's called. There is another aspect, the quindecile which I am undecided on so you might find that interesting

[LesMiserables]

do you think all orbs are equal for aspects, or do you think certain aspects are still quite accurate with wider orbs?

e.g., square aspects are felt quite strong still with a wider orb than say trine or sextile?

do you also think certain planets influence how wide an orb can be?

[The_Sundance_Kid]

I think the big four (conj, opp, squ, tri) have very similar orbs but the others less so- i even think 5-6 is generous for sextiles, i'm thinking 4 degrees is a better orb. So no, a square aspect would not have a bigger orb just for being a square. The only exception to this is the stellium thing I mentioned earlier.

Some people say the sun and moon have bigger orbs as they are bigger in the sky. I'm not sure. I think the more important a planet is the wider the orb used might be, but in practice it would make little difference: if the planet is strong, the orb will be wider, but the strong planet would dominate the aspect more, making the aspect less meaningful in the first place. So as a short cut I wouldn't increase the orbs at all.

[astrologer50]

I agree with most of the above, except noone has given the orb for qunincunx 3'max....

I dont even bother with semi square, quintile ect, cos there are minor aspects and you can drive yourself nuts with wide orbs. You have to remember internal mathematical aspects are 'facets' of your personality, some you may recognise straight away cos they are Angular, others harder cos they could be Cadent (hidden in back storeroom)...

There are lots of things to take into consideration when learning, above the horizon or below, lots planets left side or right. Then elements, earth, air, fire, water, then quadruplicities, cardinal, fixed & mutable...:rolleyes:

[LesMiserables]

I agree with most of the above, except noone has given the orb for qunincunx 3'max....

I dont even bother with semi square, quintile ect, cos there are minor aspects and you can drive yourself nuts with wide orbs. You have to remember internal mathematical aspects are 'facets' of your personality, some you may recognise straight away cos they are Angular, others harder cos they could be Cadent (hidden in back storeroom)...

There are lots of things to take into consideration when learning, above the horizon or below, lots planets left side or right. Then elements, earth, air, fire, water, then quadruplicities, cardinal, fixed & mutable...:rolleyes:

ok so the guide line/average consideration for orbs is 5?

so should i type in 50% on astro?

[wilsontc]

Sundance,

You said:
I think the minus signs show separating aspects... but check on the charts to see if this is right. If in doubt, if you click on advanced tables, they have their aspects with little 's' and 'a' which is easier to figure out.

No, the truth is more confusing than that. "A" indicates "applying" and "S" indicates "separating". But the "+" indicates "the aspect is larger than it would be, were it exact" and the "-" indicates "the aspect is smaller than it would be, were it exact". More here:
http://www.astro.com/faq/fq_fh_legend_e.htm

And so far no one has been able to explain what this means! :eek:

Confused by astro.com,

Tim

[wilsontc]

Miserables,

You said:
what are generaly considered an 'ok' for an aspect based on orbs?

Orbs (how close a planet or point has to be to another planet or point to be considered "in aspect" to it) are VERY personal issues, and VERY strongly defended by astrologers. Ask 10 different astrologers what their orbs are in their chart and you may receive 10 different answers! :eek: That said, here are my answers:

I use wider orbs on the Sun and Moon (sometimes referred to as "the lights") than on the other planets.

So, first, orbs for "the lights":
Conjunction - 10 degrees
Opposition - 10 degrees
Square - 10 degrees
Trine - 7 degrees
Sextile - 7 degrees
Quincunx - 4 degrees


And orbs for the other planets:
Conjunction - 8 degrees
Opposition - 8 degrees
Square - 8 degrees
Trine - 5 degrees
Sextile - 5 degrees
Quincunx - 3 degrees

These are the only aspects I use. Since astro.com doesn't allow setting orbs separately for different aspects and planets, it is of limited use to me. So, if possible, I will calculate charts on my home computer instead of on astro.com.

Orbing,

Tim

[LesMiserables]

Miserables,

You said:


Orbs (how close a planet or point has to be to another planet or point to be considered "in aspect" to it) are VERY personal issues, and VERY strongly defended by astrologers. Ask 10 different astrologers what their orbs are in their chart and you may receive 10 different answers! :eek: That said, here are my answers:

I use wider orbs on the Sun and Moon (sometimes referred to as "the lights") than on the other planets.

So, first, orbs for "the lights":
Conjunction - 10 degrees
Opposition - 10 degrees
Square - 10 degrees
Trine - 7 degrees
Sextile - 7 degrees
Quincunx - 4 degrees


And orbs for the other planets:
Conjunction - 8 degrees
Opposition - 8 degrees
Square - 8 degrees
Trine - 5 degrees
Sextile - 5 degrees
Quincunx - 3 degrees

These are the only aspects I use. Since astro.com doesn't allow setting orbs separately for different aspects and planets, it is of limited use to me. So, if possible, I will calculate charts on my home computer instead of on astro.com.

Orbing,

Tim

thanks for your reply tim, just what i was looking for!

most of that sounds about right, what im starting to think personally though, is (especially for conjunction aspect) is that anything that is in the 10 degree range, you can feel it slighlty, its not a conjunction, but a slight influence of it is there. but you only really feel it properly until its something of 7 degrees or less.

thats what im starting to think. i think sextiles and trines should be tighter.

[wilsontc]

Miserables,

You said:
what im starting to think personally though, is (especially for conjunction aspect) is that anything that is in the 10 degree range, you can feel it slighlty, its not a conjunction, but a slight influence of it is there.

I agree with you. And the closer the aspect is, the more strongly it is felt. If a person has an aspect with a 0 degree orb (i.e., it is "Exact") then that is a BIG issue in their life.

Exactly,

Tim

[astrologer50]

And orbs for ALL planets:

Conjunction - + 8 degrees
Opposition - + 8 degrees
Square - + 8 degrees
Trine - + 6 degrees
Sextile - + 6 degrees
Quincunx - + 3 degrees

I dont use 10' orb for 'lights' cos i think it's too wide. I just use these above;)

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Here's an article about aspects, just scroll down about halfway and there's a part about orbs.

http://ryoin.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/aspects/

Hope it helps. :)

Oh yeah, don't forget to look at the comment on that one. I almost forgot... it's important.

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Lol, ok I'll put some numbers on what I use, sorry if I rambled alot before. More of a word person than a number one.

Conjunctions/ Oppositions / Squares / Trines

Less important planets:
7 degrees applying,
5-6 degrees separating

More important planets:
8 degrees applying,
7 degrees separating

Sextiles

Less important planets
4 degrees applying,
3 degrees separating

More important planets
5 degrees applying,
3-4 degrees separating

Quincunx/ Quintiles

2-2.5 degrees applying,
1-1.5 degrees separating

But generally, when a chart has less aspects, I widen orbs somewhat. And vice versa.

[R4VEN]

[quote=wilsontc
I use wider orbs on the Sun and Moon (sometimes referred to as "the lights") than on the other planets.

So, first, orbs for "the lights":
Conjunction - 10 degrees
Opposition - 10 degrees
Square - 10 degrees
Trine - 7 degrees
Sextile - 7 degrees
Quincunx - 4 degrees


And orbs for the other planets:
Conjunction - 8 degrees
Opposition - 8 degrees
Square - 8 degrees
Trine - 5 degrees
Sextile - 5 degrees
Quincunx - 3 degrees
Tim[/quote]

Thank you for that information, Tim.

I'd previously thought I was a bit strange in using a 10 deg orb for the sun and moon, but I find that I am sensitive to these planets to that degree - at least! And 8 deg for the other planets (for conj, squ & opp anyway) seems about right to me. At least, that's the orb I'd settled upon, and my research has found that this is about right.

Thanks heaps.

[Ali]

I do use semi-sextile, semi-square, and sesquiquadrate but with very small orbs (1 degree, maybe 1 1/2). Semi-squares and sesquiquadrates do not show events in the native's life but do show a steady tension. They're typically pretty hard to deal with because they're hard to pin down.

I only use semi-sextile's if the native has a bunch, especially if they are linked. They show a person working out their evolutionary path quite consciously.

I use quite small orbs (6 degrees, usually) but I also "pull in" planets if they're in a conjunction. For example, if Saturn is 15 degrees Scorpio and Mercury is 18 degrees Aquarius and the sun is 23 degrees Aquarius, the native would still feel the square from Saturn to his sun. Although, obviously the Saturn/Mercury square would be a bigger deal in his/her life.

[Claire19]

something i haven't looked into yet, which is very important, is orbs.

i understand that astro.com is a bit giving in the aspects because of there orbs.

what i would like to know, is what are generaly considered an 'ok' for an aspect based on orbs?

please tell me..


what is usually the maximum orbs given for:

trines 4 degrees and perhaps 6 for the Sun and Moon
sextiles same with
squares same
conjunctions same
oppositions same

and i wouldn't mind knowing the other aspects - semi-sextile, semi-square, etc.

i know astrologers debate this, but surely some one or everyone here can give me a basic idea/guide line of the orbs for those aspects.

also, on the natal charts from astro, what does it mean when the orb has a - sign next to it?the minor aspects no more than 2-3 degrees.

This is a question that is much argued but only experience will tell as you track transits etc.

[EJ53]

...the "+" indicates "the aspect is larger than it would be, were it exact" and the "-" indicates "the aspect is smaller than it would be, were it exact".

And so far no one has been able to explain what this means!

Tried to figure it out......My guess is "-" relates to the waxing phase of the two planets and "+" is the waning phase............So, the planets can be applying (a) or separating (s) in either the waxing (-) or waning (+) phase of their cycle.

Only a guess though......because it is indeed confusing....especially if one or both planets are retrograde.

EJ:69:

On the question of orbs and aspects.......I use the harmonics formula, which allows 12 degrees for conjunctions (but I use 8); 6 for oppositions; 4 for trines; 3 for squares; 2 for sextiles; etc. (the principle being that the conjunction orb/12 is divided by the aspect number).

Thus, a semi-sextile would have an orb of only 1 degree and a semi-square of 1.5 degrees..........and I've often found that minor aspects have a major influence when within these allowed orbs.

EJ:)

[wintersprite1]

not sure about North Node?

The Nodes are a sensitive point and not a physical body. Since there is no body to project or collect light, the orbs to it must be relatively small. Here is an illustration that might help. Think of the Node as a pothole in the road. No matter how close you are, it does not effect you unless you directly hit it....

Personally, I wouldn't consider anything over 1 degree and even that would be a hard aspect (conjunct, opposition, square.... and the square being important because it is a mid point to the NN/SN axis.)


TK

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Since there is no body to project or collect light, the orbs to it must be relatively small.

That would be an argument for only the conjunction, Wintersprite. Since it has nothing to collect light.

[wintersprite1]

That would be an argument for only the conjunction, Wintersprite. Since it has nothing to collect light.


Okay, okay... I had to stop and really think about this. You are right. The opposition is actually a conjunct to the SN and doesn't take the NN into account as it is just a point and not a body. The Square wouldn't apply in a natal chart. I work so much with Synastry, I have given Squared Node axis importance, as they balance out a chart in Synastry. Thanks for pointing this out Kai.

TK

[lillyjgc]

Hi:
Rather than allowing certain orbs for aspects I tend to relate the orb to the speed of the planet. I allow a 5Deg orb for an applying moon aspect and a 3 deg orb for a separating aspect.
The sun is fast-so about 5 deg applying, 3deg (of orb) separating
etc.
With slow outers I think a 5 deg orb on applying and and 3 on separating works quite well.
The time of exactitude, as we all agree, is the big moment.
Loved the analogy about NN and potholes Wintersprite!
I think the 10 deg + orbs that William Lilly used, do still apply-in horary anyway.
Cheers
Lillyjgc

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Lilly...all of your aspects were the same regardless of planet

However, the traditionalist in me enjoys using the planet-based aspects like the orbs of moeity and whatnot from the article. So claps to you for being the first to arrive to that idea through your own thoughts. ;)

[deleted insulting comment - Moderator]

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Thanks Tim, I'm finding astro.com increasingly getting on my nerves because it is difficlt to navigate. But hey, to cheer us up, here is what someone on their forum said about us:

astrologyweekly.com "prides" itself as only wanting serious astrologers or students.it has an interesting policy of not allowing responses and deleteing posts of anyone that can't offer insights before asking questions. i find it a bit pompous but the site is probably what your looking for

That is an unwarranted and unnecessary point to make for this thread. But it made me smile to think about how hard we try to get the right balance and how excruciatingly we analyse forum policy (secret deleted posts threads) and their seemingly 'anything goes!' approach.

Anyway, I'd better make a point about orbs so this post isn't deleted. Ok, I think it is important to have artistic licence- especially with Nodes. So I might stretch and whatever the opposite of stretch is orbs to fit some pattern depending on how interesting and complex I want the chart to be. The number of aspects is important, as when there are few I will hunt down more, and vice versa: when there are lots, I either give some aspects the axe, or bind them together in a rope of aspects for stelliums (so individual aspects are still visible and distinct but must be studied together.) My original analogy was about welding metals but I hope you can see why the rope one is better.

Lily, I was wondering if, when looking at planet speed, do you change orbs when a planet, like Mercury or Mars, or Jupiter, becomes stationary etc? Or do you mean the general and relative speed of planets?

And also I was thinking, that maybe separating aspects show a life condition we cannot really change, it is something we must learn to cope with, as in a spiritual sense it has already happened. Whereas an applying aspect implies greater control over how the energy will manifest?

[lillyjgc]

Sundance,
You asked me this:
Lily, I was wondering if, when looking at planet speed, do you change orbs when a planet, like Mercury or Mars, or Jupiter, becomes stationary etc? Or do you mean the general and relative speed of planets?
*******
Yes. I do.
As planets change speed relative to one another due to retrogradation and position in the ecliptic etc I can't set my orbs in stone.
If Mercury, or any planet, is stationing on an aspect point, its influence will be prolonged-obviously.Pluto is very slow and because of that I might consider only a 2 deg or 3 deg orb as being within *moiety*.
Same with Neptune.I didn't explain that very well in my above post. Sorry.
But if Uranus was approaching an opposition say, to the natal, sun I' d be allowing a 4-5 deg orb there, because the sun is such a strong player in a chart..There are many factors to consider.If Uranus was forming an aspect with Pluto, I might allow only a very small orb there.(Because of their relative speeds).
Cheers
Lillyjgc

[gaer]

I agree with most of the above, except noone has given the orb for qunincunx 3'max....

I'd cut that to two maximum, because the quincunx or inconjunct you have 150 degrees. Add three and you have 153.

But the triseptile is 154 and 2/7, close to 154. If you don't use septiles, you can use a larger orb for the quincunx.

(I would only look at septiles after looking at the "major aspects", and the same with quintiles.)

[gaer]

Sundance,

You asked this, to Lilly:

Lily, I was wondering if, when looking at planet speed, do you change orbs when a planet, like Mercury or Mars, or Jupiter, becomes stationary etc? Or do you mean the general and relative speed of planets?

I think the whole idea of stationary planets, either right before, or right after retrograde, is often overlooked.

For instance, my program shows that Mercury, at about 4 Sco, is separating from Uranus, at about 0 Can and from Saturn, at about 2 Vir.

Saturn and Uranus were creeping along. I don't see much difference between separating and applying, and in order for that aspect to be "personal", I really need some strong links (aspects) to faster moving or "personal" planets.

But Mercury is only 3 days away from Rx, so it is only going to separate another degree before "u-turning". Now, it isn't going to contact quickly, because Mercury at that point is going to take some time to gain "backwards speed", but the sextile to Saturn is more or less "set" and will eventually contact. It will do the same to Uranus.

My program simply says that both aspects from Mercury are separating.

Now we have a whole bunch more questions. Cookbooks don't like questions, nor do tables.

If I have Mercury, for example, just getting ready to change motion, and the orb is already very small, what is the most powerful thing?

I would say that anything that more or less stops the apparent motion between the planets but that is eventually leading them to a conjunction should be pretty powerful. So if you have two planets that are very close together, both moving *almost* the same speed, with very small orb, *and* that are going to form exact orbs soon after the day of birth, I'd give that a huge amount of "weight". (Weight meaning that I would pay a lot of attention to it, in a natal chart.)

[The_Sundance_Kid]

Wow,

I think the worst would be an aspect that appears to be applying, but in actual fact in a day or two after birth the planet goes retrograde, so it will never make that aspect to the planet it was approaching. There will never be that cathartic progression to complete the aspect.

I have never looked at planet speeds to check for this specific thing, so who knows how many times this might have come up in charts I have studied.

Definitely something to look out for, I think tabular ephemerides are very useful for this as you can't help but see how fast the planet is moving by looking at all the days. But the book I had for that is missing.

Philosophical aside:

I think all of this begs the question of whether a natal chart is a snapshot of the life or whether the chart is but the starting point of an individual which progresses. So to look at the real you look at your current progressed chart and not the natal chart. You only look at the natal chart to see where you came from.

In other words what we are in fact describing here when we talk about applying and separating aspects are the impacts of progressions, with the earlier progressions having the greatest importance in the make up of the individual

Are there any purists that don't do that? Or hold that the natal chart has some form of entrenched significance?

I feel that if we do what we are doing here, projecting these aspects into the future to evaluate them, we are really admitting the natal chart is but a moment and is not a concrete or core part of a person. Do you think this is feasible?

Because if that is true, then we are saying that not only is our natal chart full of all sorts of possibilities and potentials, but our natal chart isn't even the real us, there are in fact all these other progressions and projections to configure, and all of those have all sorts of possibilities and potentials. So thats like possibilities and potentials multiplied, which in the end can't point to much at all can it? If the possibilities are endless then the chart cannot really mean much?

Anyway, aside over. I agree with you both. I'm just not sure what the implications of our viewpoint is.

[wilsontc]

Olivia,

You said:
If there's a way to do it, I'd just turn off the aspect lines at astro.

There is a way to do that. In astro.com click on "Free Horoscopes," click on "Extended Chart Selection", scroll to the bottom of the page, and click on "draw no aspect lines". Then create the chart as usual.

Unaspectfully yours,

Tim