Limitations, Guidelines for Astrology/Newcomers

[astrologer50]

Welcome,
Astrology is a wonderful for of psychology, to know yourself better and therefore with study and research be better equipped to understand family, friends, colleagues. The main purpose of astrology is to help people make better choices, to clarify the nature of the psychological terrain through which we are all passing, and to serve as an ally in the endless, unpredictable task of creating the future!

In this forum it would be most helpful (but not a prerequisite) for people to ‘post’ their charts (rather than data) for others to comment on as we are all visual. For help on how to do this, go here http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126)

This community is more of a discussion and learning site, and that our main objective is to encourage, interact and explain astrologically why something is happening in your life, rather than just ‘drop the answer in your lap’ and not necessarily to provide professional readings and forecast future events. This forum is not made for extensive forecasting and cannot always provide quick fixes or miracles….

This forum is for beginners’ astrology students and professional astrologers and it hoped that you learn more from each other.We hope that you come here and want to learn about astrology and join in with exchanges. We have an ever expanding Education forum and lots more to explore. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12556 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12556) or try http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TOClessons.htm (http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TOClessons.htm)

Lots of people have extremely high and sometimes unrealistic expectations of what astrology can do. Astrology doesn't always speak the language of outward, concrete events. The future that astrology can foresee with sometimes startling accuracy, doesn't always unfold in the world "out there." It unfolds between your ears and in your heart!

Here I am not talking about Horary (just ‘natal’ and all its derivatives),Horary is for asking specific poignant questions and casting a transit chart for the actual time you ‘ask the question’ and different rules apply….. if you want yes/no. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=42 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=42)

There are two main biggest branches that Astrologers fall into, Horary and natal Astrologers will look at questions throughout different forums using techniques like Secondary Progressions, Solar Arcs, Transits, Solar returns, which can take years of studying, research and practise, but if you are truly interested, dive in, you’ll get lots of support, help and advice. Theoretically astrology could answer any questions, providing they are poignant...

There are all sorts of different types Astrologers on this forum. I am a modern Astrologer and use Equal House system (one of the oldest and in my opinion of course J, most reliable system) but most here use Placidus, some Koch (unequal size houses) . In House & Cusps forum there are threads which discuss House systems extensively if you want to read up on the differences. Some Astrologers are ‘Traditional Astrologers’ others Horary Astrologers. Different rules apply to different areas of astrology.

These are just my thoughts (not those of moderators or other members) on the possibilities and limitations of Astrology. It is expected that the Moderators here and members will contribute to this thread…..

Just to wet your appetite, try here for all sorts of free Astrology report sites
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2518 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2518)

Astrologer50

[Shining Ray]

Hi Astrologer50,

Good post. I really liked it. :) In the beginning of Liz Greene's, Astrology for Lover's there is a good chapter on What astrology can and can't do. I enjoyed reading this as well. I might have overquoted though. Am I allowed to post on this thread, if not I will remove it.

Astrology is baffling because it works. So, what in fact is a horoscope?

What it's not is a way of foretelling the future, or of determining whether that tall dark stranger will turn up next week. To put it briefly the horoscope is a map of the psyche of the individual. it's a kind of blueprint, a seed plan, a model of the energies and drives which make up a person. Because it's calculated precisely for time and place, it's unique, unlike the sun sign column. Even identical twins are born at least four minutes apart, and in four minutes the picture has shifted.

A lot of people are frightened of astrology because they believe it claims to predict fate. Once upon a time in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, it claimed precisely that. The horoscope describes a person's inner nature. Their life will run according to this magical (don't be afraid of the word - the law of attraction is one of the basic principles of magic, too, and all of life is magical) process of mutual attraction. The more unaware they are of the stuff of which they're made, the more 'fated' they are by their own inner self. They'll go on attracting things in their life for good or ill whether they care to acknowledge it or not. The more aware (or might we say conscious) they are, the more choices they have.

This is the meaning of fate in astrology. Not some Old Man in the clouds punishing the sinner and rewarding the righteous. No dark gods lurking in the shadows waiting to dictate. Only ourselves - Our Self our own deepest and innermost being dictates our Fate. And how much of ourself do we truly know, much lies unknown, hidden, unconscious.

[EJ53]

....posted today in GL

Well done A50..............I think any newcomer (experienced or inexperienced) will benefit from having this summary on the GL board........It's a good start to (imo) a very worthwhile project.

EJ:)

[lillyjgc]

Welcome,
Astrology is a wonderful for of psychology, to know yourself better and therefore with study and research be better equipped to understand family, friends, colleagues.

Yes, that is ONE of the benefits.Psychological Astrology is only ONE branch.And there are many reasons to study astrology.

The main purpose of astrology is to help people make better choices, to clarify the nature of the psychological terrain through which we are all passing, and to serve as an ally in the endless, unpredictable task of creating the future.

What does that mean?

In this forum it would be most helpful for people to ‘post’ their charts (rather than data) for others to comment on as we are all visual. For help on how to do this, go here http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126)

This should definitely NOT be hinted at as being a requirement.There are many valid reasons why some members will never post their chart. And for many discussions it is not necessary.When people choose to post their chart it is because they feel Ok to do so.In many cases, a querent will pm that information where it remains confidential.
Privacy is an issue with the posting of natal data as this info can be accessed and used for crimes such as *identity* fraud.While we'd like people to post their charts, no-one should feel obliged or pressured to.


This community is more of a discussion and learning site, and that our main objective is to encourage, interact and explain astrologically why something is happening in your life, rather than just ‘drop the answer in your lap’ and not necessarily to provide professional readings and forecast future events.

Well I for one would define my *role* as an astrologer somewhat differently to this. I think we would all have a different perspective on this.

This forum is not made for extensive forecasting and cannot always provide quick fixes or miracles….

Extensive forecasting? Why ever not?? This is highly contentious


This forum is for beginners’, astrology students and professional astrologers and it 's hoped that you learn more from each other.We hope that you come here and want to learn about astrology and join in with exchanges. We have an ever expanding Education forum and lots more to explore. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12556 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12556) or try http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TOClessons.htm (http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TOClessons.htm)

Well plenty of people might object to Bob Marks getting an *official free plug!*

Lots of people have extremely high and sometimes unrealistic expectations of what astrology can do. Astrology doesn't always speak the language of outward, concrete events.

Actually that's what Astrology is BEST at.

The future that astrology can foresee with sometimes startling accuracy, doesn't always unfold in the world "out there." It unfolds between your ears and in your heart!

This statement has absolutely no foundation in fact.

Here I am not talking about Horary (just ‘natal’ and all its derivatives),Horary is for asking specific poignant questions and casting a transit chart for the actual time you ‘ask the question’ and different rules apply….. if you want yes/no. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=42 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=42)

No-It's certainly NOT if you * want yes/no* ...-there's way more to it than that and what you say here is actually misleading.

There are two main camps Astrologers fall into, Horary and natal Astrologers..

There are more than two *main camps*.The word *camps* has the connotation that there is combat! We try not to be *partisan* here.There's plenty of *common ground!*

...will look at questions throughout different forums using techniques like Secondary Progressions, Solar Arcs, Transits, Solar returns, which can take years of studying, research and practise, but if you are truly interested, dive in, you’ll get lots of support, help and advice.

There are all sorts of different types Astrologers on this forum. I am a Professional modern Astrologer and use Equal House system (one of the oldest and in my opinion of course J, most reliable system) but most here use Placidus, some Koch (unequal size houses) .


Well, if this gets made into a sticky that should go.It's not our job to tell newcomers what they should use, just give them links and info so they can make their own decisions. Making those decisions is crucial to a conceptual understanding of astrology.

In House & Cusps forum there are threads which discuss House systems extensively if you want to read up on the differences. Some Astrologers are ‘Traditional Astrologers’ others Horary Astrologers. Different rules apply to different areas of astrology.

These are just my thoughts (not those of moderators or other members) on the possibilities and limitations of Astrology. It is expected that the Moderators here and members will contribute to this thread…..

I'm glad you put that rider in, because this screed doesnt reflect my own views (but I am only *one*)


Just to whet your appetite, try here for all sorts of free Astrology report sites
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2518 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2518)>>


If this is in fact the makings of a *sticky* it might be a good idea to try to come up with something that *does* adequately reflect the matters and the Forum's *official position* in a fair and unbiased way and the purpose of the greenhorn's lounge, which isnt really spelt out in the above.

In fact, if we ARE to have a sticky, maybe as this is Radu's site, he might oblige us by writing one!...C'mon Radu, the Greenhorn's Lounge WAS your idea!!!:)
lillyjgc

[aquarius7000]

Hi all,

We hope that the post put together by Astrologer 50 will serve as a general guideline of Astrology for newcomers. Thank you Astrologer 50 for your piece.

On this recommendations board, where I have moved this thread to, please feel free to contribute your ideas in order to discuss the contents/ fine-tune them/ add on to the post, but not to attack it/the poster.

After the post, perhaps even posts is/are finalised, we can then move that part to the Greenhorns' Lounge as a full-baked and ready write-up.

Thanks
:)AQ7

PS: I would suggest to put the title as: Guidelines for Newcomers regarding Astrology.

[EJ53]

To make this manageable, we need to structure this "guideline" and work on it paragraph by paragraph rather than as a whole. So, A50 gives us this first paragraph (as an Introduction) :-

Welcome,
Astrology is a wonderful for of psychology, to know yourself better and therefore with study and research be better equipped to understand family, friends, colleagues. The main purpose of astrology is to help people make better choices, to clarify the nature of the psychological terrain through which we are all passing, and to serve as an ally in the endless, unpredictable task of creating the future!

For which my suggestion might be :-

Amongst other things, astrology is a wonderful tool for understanding yourself and others better.....enabling us to make better choices in life as we become aware of how our behaviour influences what happens to us through the law of cause and effect.

The horoscope is not is a way of foretelling the future, but rather a map of the our psyche....calculated precisely for time and place of birth, to take account of our uniqueness.....since even a difference of 4 minutes can alter a person significanly.

Some people fear astrology because they believe it predicts fate.....and in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, it did claim to do so. Now though, the horoscope is used to describe the inner nature.....and determine how the law of attraction (ie. cause and effect) brings things into our life for good or ill, whether we are aware of it or not.

Astrology is the means by which we can become aware of these unconscious forces and use them consciously to improve our quality of life.

EJ:)

{I know this covers only Modern Astrology..........but I'm suggesting how we might tackle the project rather than what the final content should be.)

[astrologer50]

Hi Astrologer50,

Good post. I really liked it. :) In the beginning of Liz Greene's, Astrology for Lover's there is a good chapter on What astrology can and can't do. I enjoyed reading this as well. I might have overquoted though. Am I allowed to post on this thread, if not I will remove it.

Great quote, thanks for support, much appreciated. It does seem everyone's upset over words. Again I reiterate this was intended (as everyone knows) as a starting point, NOT end point.....:rolleyes:

Thanks again charmingvirgo....
Positive support instead of negative critisim is what is hoped for here..... I have removed the word 'camp' and tried 'branches'...... maybe it will help

[lillyjgc]

Charmvirgo, et al,
I'm sorry if you considered my post to be overly critical of the Original, posted by Astrologer50. I broke it up (as EJ too subsequently suggested) so that I could discuss *in detail* the sections I consider inappropriate.I was under the impression that was the purpose of this thread.
*Getting the words right* is rather important, if we are to give newbies something to connect with regarding astrology and the diversity of practices on our forum.
I agree with aquarius 7000-the word *Limitations* needs to be dropped from the title.
I agree with what Shining Ray has suggested, as an inclusion.
Firstly, though, we need to agree what the *purpose* of the *guideline* is...I don't think this gives newbies a clear overall picture at all as to what to expect from us.
Are we trying to explain what the Greenhorns Lounge is about and for? are we trying to write an *introduction to (all kinds of) Astrology?* Is this going to be the place where we tell them what we expect of them in terms of having an attempt at their own chart (or not),( something similar to what Starlink suggested in the thread on which this discussion originated)?

Because I think there are a few of us who aren't clear on what exactly we are trying to convey here, there may indeed be some discussion as to the content.
I hope that everyone who *disagrees* with the original is not berated for doing so. Surely, whilst we are being respectfully courteous, we can discuss our opinions honestly.

Cheers,
Lillyjgc

[EJ53]

....I agree with aquarius 7000-the word *Limitations* needs to be dropped from the title.....I agree with what Shining Ray has suggested, as an inclusion.

I also agree with these two points of Lilly's.........And attempted to get the essence of SR's quote into the "suggested opening paragraph" re. my last post.

..Firstly, though, we need to agree what the *purpose* of the *guideline* is....

Agree with this too.........and my view is that we need to point out that there are lots of techniques/branches of astrology( http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/index.php ) but we recommend beginners to focus upon Natal, which falls into two main camps - traditional and modern.......We should then do two separate notes on the purpose, etc of each of these (to avoid confusion).

...Are we trying to explain what the Greenhorns Lounge is about and for? Yes, in the introduction pointing out there are numerous techniques/branches.....are we trying to write an *introduction to (all kinds of) Astrology? No, we need only point it out......Is this going to be the place where we tell them what we expect of them in terms of having an attempt at their own chart (or not) Maybe, but I wouldn't.

...Because I think there are a few of us who aren't clear on what exactly we are trying to convey here, there may indeed be some discussion as to the content.....

Ok......but let's start doing something instead of "huffing and puffing" at each other.

EJ:)

[EJ53]

In this forum it would be most helpful (but not a prerequisite) for people to ‘post’ their charts (rather than data) for others to comment on as we are all visual. For help on how to do this, go here http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126)

This community is more of a discussion and learning site, and that our main objective is to encourage, interact and explain astrologically why something is happening in your life, rather than just ‘drop the answer in your lap’ and not necessarily to provide professional readings and forecast future events. This forum is not made for extensive forecasting and cannot always provide quick fixes or miracles….

This forum is for beginners’ astrology students and professional astrologers and it hoped that you learn more from each other.We hope that you come here and want to learn about astrology and join in with exchanges. We have an ever expanding Education forum and lots more to explore. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12556 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12556) or try http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TOClessons.htm (http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TOClessons.htm)

These paragraphs all relate to the The Forum rather than astrology.......They belong somewhere, but not in our Guideline on Natal Astrology.

Lots of people have extremely high and sometimes unrealistic expectations of what astrology can do. Astrology doesn't always speak the language of outward, concrete events. The future that astrology can foresee with sometimes startling accuracy, doesn't always unfold in the world "out there." It unfolds between your ears and in your heart!

Throughout the guideline, we should aim to avoid using "the language of astrology".......My suggestion with this paragraph is :-

Modern astrology does not reliably predict the future.......But it can provide an excellent insight into the psychological make-up of people, enabling us to accurately predict their behaviour and it's resultant effects.

EJ:)

[lillyjgc]

Okay, how's this then?

*****AS ABOVE< SO BELOW****
This is the basic tenet of astrology. Our birth chart, or Natal chart as it is called, is a map of the heavens at the very moment of our birth.Many believe that contained within that Natal chart is the *story of our life* , but translating that story is the real challenge for astrologers of every school of thought.
Amongst other things, astrology is a wonderful tool for understanding yourself and others better.....enabling us to make better choices in life as we become aware of how our behaviour influences what happens to us through the law of cause and effect.(EJ)

As Liz Green said
"To put it briefly the horoscope is a map of the psyche of the individual. It's a kind of blueprint, a seed plan, a model of the energies and drives which make up a person. Because it's calculated precisely for time and place, it's unique, unlike the sun sign column. Even identical twins are born at least four minutes apart, and in four minutes the picture has shifted."

There are many different approaches to astrology.
Some are based on the practices of our astrological predecessors: men such as William Lilly who wrote his works in the 1600-1700's,Ptolemy,and many others whose names you will see referred to in the Forum.This is the basis of Traditional astrology.
Around 1930 Alan Leo *popularised* astrology and many modern approaches stem from his ideas and philosophies.He is accredited with the beginning of daily horoscope reports often referred to as *sun sign astrology*.Modern astrology has evolved through his ideas and the ideas of more recent astrologers, such as Linda Goodman and many others.

Modern astrology incorporates some of the old and some of the new, relating to the discovery of the Outer planets, which were not taken into account prior to the 19th century.
There are many other *schools of Astrological thought* too,such as Vedic and heliocentric, Classical, renaissance etc. The history of Astrological thought is also a very interesting subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_astrology
It has been practised all over the planet by different cultures and evolved in different ways.
By looking through the list of Boards we have, you may get an idea of the breadth of astrological practice, just represented here on the Forum.

If you intend to learn about astrology, you will need to begin with a natal chart, it need not necessarily be your own, but many choose to begin this way, in an effort to better understand their own life journey, and purpose.

It is important to note that the *time of your birth* is the most important information you can have.It is no use *guessing* the time as this will yield incorrect interpretations.Please try to get a verified birth time.

There are many experienced astrologers here on Astrology Weekly who will be more than willing to assist you to draw up and understand your chart.
(insert link here)
We also have an Education Board where you will find a great deal of useful information to get you started.
(insert link here).
Whilst your Natal chart is a *map of your life*, a Horary chart is a snapshot of a moment in that life, when your whole being is focussed on a critical question.
Anyone can ask a horary question. You do not need a birth time to use this method of astrological enquiry.What you do need is the exact time the question was clearly worded in your mind. An experienced horarist can, using the time you have asked the question and the place from which it was asked, explore a particular matter in great detail.
Horary astrology can be used to enquire about health,marriage, love affairs, work matters, travel,relocation,and many other matters that affect our daily lives. It can be used to find lost things, people, pets, and many other subjects.
But as with Natal astrology,many factors need to be considered when interpreting an horary chart.It isn't as simple as it looks!

Before you *decide* which approach to astrology suits you best, it may help you to read as widely as possible and ask as many questions as you need to.
We are all students here.

[EJ53]

Yes, Lilly.......I like what you've produced.

Maybe a link to the Forum index page after :-

By looking through the list of Boards we have, you may get an idea of the breadth of astrological practice, just represented here on the Forum.

And I'd include a recommendation not to attempt horary without first acquiring a sound knowledge of Natal............If that's sensible advice.

EJ:)

[RayAustin]

I hope that everyone who *disagrees* with the original is not berated for doing so. Surely, whilst we are being respectfully courteous, we can discuss our opinions honestly


Thank you for noting this, since I was only being real about the post and I get deleted because I didn't praise it. :) It needs more objectivity and change with wording ~ I don't see why people have to be so sensitive with that -- I also clearly specified, why; the post seemed to revolve too much around the creator's viewpoint.

I am glad to see that others are at least noting the things that needed to be changed (i.e. 'camps'); saying only 'horary', and 'natal', should be thrown out.

Ray:)

[RayAustin]

And I'd include a recommendation not to attempt horary without first acquiring a sound knowledge of Natal............If that's sensible advice.


EJ,
I don't agree. One really has to do nothing with the other, they are contradictory especially how modern natal astrology has diverted very far from its traditional roots when we consider the trend of merely "psychological" application.

Perhaps a reccommendation that people should make sure to stop by the education board and read up on the horary links/thread before attempting, to assuage those mandatory interpretations that come up like, "I really don't know what I'm doing, so I can't give my opinion.."

Ray :)

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

I agree with those who are trying to sit down and think about what the guideline is supposed to cover, however, instead of all of us clamoring on about what should and shouldn't be in it, I think it'd be best to assign someone to write it (or perhaps take a volunteer) who will actually give it the justice it deserves.

Completely objective, mostly inclusive, etc, etc.

Also, though, I have to wonder if this is really necessary. The stuff about astrology not being completely accurate should go without saying. Also, I'm not comfortable with people telling other people what astrology "can't" do simply because they don't know "how" to do it. Also, introducing the various branches of astrology is already done. It's called the index of the forum with its many sub-forums that have the branch they cover in the title. Such as the Natal Astrology sub-forum, the Horary Astrology sub-forum, and the Electional and Event Astrology sub-forum.

[EJ53]

EJ,...I don't agree...

Ok Ray......You're saying it's not sensible4 advice.......so, leaving it out is fine by me.

I have to wonder if this is really necessary.

Ok Kai....but we should decide this after the guideline is written......How can we say it's not needed until we know what is in it........and that decision should be made by fledgling astrologers on the forum rather than those well-versed in astrology..........Sometimes we forget that what to us "should go without saying", we once didn't know.

Note for all - What does go without saying for me is that traditional astrology needs to be properly addressed in this guideline..........And I am not aware of anyone here disagreeing with that.

EJ:)

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Ok Kai....but we should decide this after the guideline is written......How can we say it's not needed until we know what is in it........and that decision should be made by fledgling astrologers on the forum rather than those well-versed in astrology..........Sometimes we forget that what to us "should go without saying", we once didn't know.

I'd prefer the necessity of the guideline be the first thing considered, lest the efforts of whoever wrote it go to waste. I agree that the "little people" have the most say in it, since obviously it is aimed for them, so we should take into consideration what they need to know starting out. However, the accuracy of astrology - hell, the accuracy for any divinatory art - should go without saying. 100% accuracy isn't possible and it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. GermX can only kill 99.9% of microbes, so astrology being 100% accurate is just a silly thing for anyone to even think.

I still don't think this guideline is necessary, but I'm good at giving people too much credit, however, I refuse to think that people are stupid and need to have their hand held throughout the whole thing. It especially saddens me that this was brought up because of someone being upset with the "same old questions" which really aren't the "same" and they really aren't "old".

*sigh* Oh well.

[starlink]

Lilly, just a short note. Astrologer50 wrote:

In this forum it would be most helpful for people to ‘post’ their charts

I totally agree with this. (And by the way EJ, I think it should stay because it is one of the guidelines on how to start a thread)
Lilly, You then said:


This should definitely NOT be hinted at as being a requirement

I absolutely do not see this. "most helpful" does not at all mean that it is a requirement.

EJ, you mentioned this:
And I'd include a recommendation not to attempt horary without first acquiring a sound knowledge of Natal............If that's sensible advice.

Here I very much agree.Even though horary is very different from natal, I personally think that without at least good knowledge of what planets and houses mean natally, it will be a struggle to get to grips with horary.

Newbies dont have to go into all details of natal astrology, but these basic things should be known to them. If we talk about: traditionally Mercury is the ruler of the 3rd house (even though in the horary chart it is SAturn), then they should know why Mercury is traditionally ruler of the 3rd house. It is essential.

And here I understand what Astrologer50 means:

This forum is not made for extensive forecasting and cannot always provide quick fixes or miracles….

and I think Lilly, that you misunderstood her maybe by writing this:
Extensive forecasting? Why ever not?? This is highly contentious
What Astrologer50 wants to point out here, as far as I can see it, is that we are not here to give long (extensive), free forcast readings. Also, I agree that quick fixes and miracles are unrealistic.

On the whole I think that Astrologer50 has made a very good attempt at writing a script here and I thank her for her effort. What I particularly like about it is the fact that it is kept short. Because we are talking about the limitations (in astrology AND in what we can offer in our answers to posts) and the guidelines ( on what the newcomer can expect, what is expected of them and where newby's can go when in need of help), I think this post should be kept crisp, to the point and without mentioning of personal preferences like which system to use, whether traditional is better than modern or vice versa etc. etc.

One thing I would like to add maybe is that a newcomer should in the beginning just keep it simple and not (out of curiosity) start asking about stars, asteroids, arabic point and other things that will only cloud their understanding. This can come later, much later.

Last but not least, Kai, you said:

I think it'd be best to assign someone to write it (or perhaps take a volunteer) who will actually give it the justice it deserves.


We did assign Astrologer50 and she came up with a draft. I think that the suggestions of all the others will give it the justice that it deserves. It cannot just be done by one person. Others have to agree as well.

Starlink

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

We did assign Astrologer50 and she came up with a draft.

Okay, well then how about someone who knows how to be objective and can list more than two "camps" of astrology when there are more branches in astrology than there are on a bonzai tree. Or who has more open views of what astrology can do instead of dismissing it from one branch of astrology into another under the label of "not possible" when it's been done since day one.

Sorry, but when it comes to assisting people new to astrology, I'm not going to be nice about letting people get away with leading them astray or making them misinformed. Astrology has too much of that already. You'll have to forgive me for my lack of "constructive" criticism, but I do the best with what I'm given, even if it's rebuilding it from the ground up.

[wintersprite1]

What is really missing is the obvious. Everything under the Sun must be found in the Astrological Wheel. Astrology doesn't have limits (the whole world is encompassed) it is Astrologers that have limits.

May be what should be included is a disclaimer.... The Astrologers on the forum are at different levels of study. Please keep that in mind when given advise (come on, this is the internet, anybody can write anything and be anyone they please..... lecture on tip of my tongue with teenagers in the house) this is not a professional site and we can not guarantee any advice freely given. Medical advice should not replace advice of a medical professional.

We keep looking for limitations, but isn't the limitations a shadow of what we don't want to admit about ourselves?

TK

BTW Astrologer50.... though I may not necessarily agree with most of the rough draft, you do have a pleasant way of conveying your ideas.

[waybread]

I greatly appreciate all the effort that Astrologer50 has put into this "welcome", but I do not see astrology as a form of psychology. Nor would most licensed psychologists see astrology as a branch of their discipline, although a few would.

Astrology pre-dated psychology by millennia, and will no doubt persist after psychology has morphed into something else. Mundane astrology (earthquakes, tsunamis) or weather prediction may not even require human actors.

Also astrology does very much does speak the language of outer, concrete events, just not the language of events that are not 100% predictable; and of some types of events, not at all.

Nor does astrology require "poignancy" in its questions.

It is great to tell people about different house systems, but why personalize the "welcome" to prefer one house system or "modern" astrology? If this is to be a generic "welcome" why refer to Astrologer50 in the first person at all?

I will take this up with the moderators on our board, if one of us hasn't done so already.

Ultimately I am not sure what this "welcome" accomplishes beyond the Forum rules.

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Because it's not a good idea and if you're going to write something that "newbies" are going to automatically jump on, you're going to write it the right way. Being inclusive and non-biased with no personal plugs.

:)

And gee, I'm pretty sure criticism is what writing and astrology is based on. It's just I'm choosing "destructive" criticism since I feel it was put together very poorly.

[RayAustin]

Why are people so angry with astrologer50 that they do not see what is basically a good idea and cannot contribute anything except criticism. It does not make a creative mood.

Charm, no one is angry. Because we disagree we are angry? No. We have been contributing more than just criticism; we have specified reasons why, Charm. No one has said, I don't like it and that is it, without specifying their concerns.

Ray.:)

[lillyjgc]

The key word appears to be *Limitations*-in the screed and in the thread discussing it.
Personally I don't feel as if I was part of any process that *chose* astrologer50 to write a screed on behalf of the Forum-to my knowledge this is not the usual practice at all.In fact the whole matter has arisen from astrologer50's own personal dissatisfaction of how we *do things here*.

The positive factor to emerge is is that yes, there is a need for some kind of guideline to go on the Greenhorns Lounge.We can thank Astro50 for getting that on the road.

However,I don't feel what has been written is adequate, and I've explained in detail, why.
In a *put up or shut up* capacity I wrote an alternative, but now it seems that we are limited to only working with the original. Where does that leave this discussion?
Just because someone has an idea doesn't mean we all have to rush to embrace it.Maybe it does.
It's apparent that any criticism of the original is now going to be met with cries of protest, and perceived as being *personal*.
Limitations. And on the very day that Saturn and Uranus go head to head again.:)
Lillyjgc

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

The positive factor to emerge is is that yes, there is a need for some kind of guideline to go on the Greenhorns Lounge.We can thank Astro50 for getting that on the road.

Do you really think it's that necessary, though? I mean, really?

[lillyjgc]

In all fairness yes, I think we do need *some* kind of Guideline. There does seem to be confusion amongst newbies as to what can and can't be posted in Greenhorn's etc and we have to assume that some of these members will have no knowledge whatsoever about Astrology when they sign up.Some will-they can skip that Sticky!
Radu has written a general welcome at the start of AW and I posted that up on the original thread to remind us that already we have an official welcome.Whether we need another welcome in Greenhorns is disputable but a guideline of some kind may help clarify what we are about here.I can't see it would do any harm anyway.
The issue still remains: What do we want it to say?
Astrologer50 made it very clear that her post was a *starting point* so I don't understand why anyone should be upset by us now discussing *what to change*.
I agree with Kai that one person should be assigned to write it (in collaboration with a Moderator.)It would be far simpler.I don't see any need for all of the membership to have input. Its unworkable in a practical sense.
Lillyjgc

[rogue_red]

Astrologer50. Thankyou so much for the effort you have put in to this starting point in developing an appropriate welcome for the greenhorns lounge.
I am a little concerned about the use of copyright text in your post though. It needs to be wrapped in quotes and have the authors name attatched to avoid any problems with plagiarism.
I think you have tried really hard to provide a broad and tactful approach to the issue.

Rogue red

[waybread]

I feel very passionate about astrology. I derive a lot of enjoyment from it. But writing a description that sets arbitrary limits on the actual compass of the field in order to address what I see as a fairly minor problem (repititious gaffes by newbies) is of questionable service to astrology, IMO.

[rogue_red]

I feel very passionate about astrology. I derive a lot of enjoyment from it. But writing a description that sets arbitrary limits on the actual compass of the field in order to address what I see as a fairly minor problem (repititious gaffes by newbies) is of questionable service to astrology, IMO.

Actually I agree with you waybread. I really liked Gaer's response where he said its the quality of the answers rather than the questions themselves that are important. (apologies for poor paraphrasing)
I respect that astrologer50 has only good intentions and I think she has tried really hard to provide a positive solution. Im just not convinced that there is a problem to be dealt with.:)

Rogue red

[Astrologer4U]

Some people fear astrology because they believe it predicts fate.....and in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, it did claim to do so. Now though, the horoscope is used to describe the inner nature.....and determine how the law of attraction (ie. cause and effect) brings things into our life for good or ill, whether we are aware of it or not.

Astrology is the means by which we can become aware of these unconscious forces and use them consciously to improve our quality of life.

EJ:)


I am so pleased that these points were mentioned.:)

[Astrologer4U]

Welcome,
Astrology is a wonderful for of psychology, to know yourself better and therefore with study and research be better equipped to understand family, friends, colleagues. The main purpose of astrology is to help people make better choices, to clarify the nature of the psychological terrain through which we are all passing, and to serve as an ally in the endless, unpredictable task of creating the future!

In this forum it would be most helpful (but not a prerequisite) for people to ‘post’ their charts (rather than data) for others to comment on as we are all visual. For help on how to do this, go here http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126)

This community is more of a discussion and learning site, and that our main objective is to encourage, interact and explain astrologically why something is happening in your life, rather than just ‘drop the answer in your lap’ and not necessarily to provide professional readings and forecast future events. This forum is not made for extensive forecasting and cannot always provide quick fixes or miracles….

This forum is for beginners’ astrology students and professional astrologers and it hoped that you learn more from each other.We hope that you come here and want to learn about astrology and join in with exchanges. We have an ever expanding Education forum and lots more to explore. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12556 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12556) or try http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TOClessons.htm (http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TOClessons.htm)

Lots of people have extremely high and sometimes unrealistic expectations of what astrology can do. Astrology doesn't always speak the language of outward, concrete events. The future that astrology can foresee with sometimes startling accuracy, doesn't always unfold in the world "out there." It unfolds between your ears and in your heart!

Here I am not talking about Horary (just ‘natal’ and all its derivatives),Horary is for asking specific poignant questions and casting a transit chart for the actual time you ‘ask the question’ and different rules apply….. if you want yes/no. http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=42 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=42)

There are two main biggest branches that Astrologers fall into, Horary and natal Astrologers will look at questions throughout different forums using techniques like Secondary Progressions, Solar Arcs, Transits, Solar returns, which can take years of studying, research and practise, but if you are truly interested, dive in, you’ll get lots of support, help and advice. Theoretically astrology could answer any questions, providing they are poignant...

There are all sorts of different types Astrologers on this forum. I am a modern Astrologer and use Equal House system (one of the oldest and in my opinion of course J, most reliable system) but most here use Placidus, some Koch (unequal size houses) . In House & Cusps forum there are threads which discuss House systems extensively if you want to read up on the differences. Some Astrologers are ‘Traditional Astrologers’ others Horary Astrologers. Different rules apply to different areas of astrology.

These are just my thoughts (not those of moderators or other members) on the possibilities and limitations of Astrology. It is expected that the Moderators here and members will contribute to this thread…..

Just to wet your appetite, try here for all sorts of free Astrology report sites
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2518 (http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2518)

Astrologer50

Great post A50... However, I think it should also serve as a reminder to the oldcomers, rather than only serving as something that only the newcomers, should know and understand.:)

This is just my opinion, nothing else. All that you have posted in the above quote is information that newcomers should know, and oldcomers should not forget. ;)

[Astrologer4U]

EJ,
I don't agree. One really has to do nothing with the other, they are contradictory especially how modern natal astrology has diverted very far from its traditional roots when we consider the trend of merely "psychological" application.

Perhaps a reccommendation that people should make sure to stop by the education board and read up on the horary links/thread before attempting, to assuage those mandatory interpretations that come up like, "I really don't know what I'm doing, so I can't give my opinion.."

Ray :)


To each is own but for me, I tend to agree with this.

[Astrologer4U]

I greatly appreciate all the effort that Astrologer50 has put into this "welcome", but I do not see astrology as a form of psychology. Nor would most licensed psychologists see astrology as a branch of their discipline, although a few would.

Astrology pre-dated psychology by millennia, and will no doubt persist after psychology has morphed into something else. Mundane astrology (earthquakes, tsunamis) or weather prediction may not even require human actors.

Also astrology does very much does speak the language of outer, concrete events, just not the language of events that are not 100% predictable; and of some types of events, not at all.

Nor does astrology require "poignancy" in its questions.

It is great to tell people about different house systems, but why personalize the "welcome" to prefer one house system or "modern" astrology? If this is to be a generic "welcome" why refer to Astrologer50 in the first person at all?

I will take this up with the moderators on our board, if one of us hasn't done so already.

Ultimately I am not sure what this "welcome" accomplishes beyond the Forum rules.

I am not sure as far as beyond the forum rules either but I don't think the thread had any ill intent. To each is own and we are all entitled to our own opinions. No need to show our dissapointments towards other peoples opinions, after all, what does that really accomplish outside of back and forth unecessary bickering? I know I have had more than my share of those days here. :) Who knew that there was a community of Astrologers who can't see beyond the planetary aspects, that maturity is a necessity in this field of Astrology. :eek:

[EJ53]

A lot has happened on this thread since I last posted, on which my comments are as follows :-

Kai/Ray

As Charm points out, our aim should be to provide constructive, objective comments on the draft rather than it's creator. It's ok to be negative........that is an essential part of constructive criticism.........but it's not ok to be personal.

All

Don't disagree with anyone's comments at all.

But, the difficulty comes in deciding upon the member comments to accept/reject...........And that will be made harder as the the thread grows longer.....Maybe it's time for someone to "sort the wheat from the chaff" and produce a 2nd draft before we proceed further.

EJ:)

[aquarius7000]

Folks,

Maybe we should all take a step back, take a deep breath, and perhaps come back with some constructive ideas. It is not helping much to copy-paste a sentence out of some one else's post and simply comment on it, or worse still, simply saying that the write-up has been done poorly, etc.. Whilst we are all free to express our opinions, but simply grading someone's 'contribution' with certain adjectives is not conducive to the atmosphere on this thread and forum. Please make it a point to give an alternative 'suggestion/text', which perhaps can be 'used' instead, and can equally imply that you are not satisfied with the text that stands at this moment, and would recommend something else instead. This is certainly a more constructive way of disagreeing, as has already been suggested time and again by Charm, EJ, etc.

A general guideline for the Greenhorns' Lounge cannot do any harm. We already have a couple of drafts here now, besides Astrologer50's post, who got the ball rolling on this at all. I would think it is probably time now to look into those posts/drafts done by Astro50, Shining Ray, Lilly, EJ, and others, who have made an effort and contributed what they could. Can someone begin compiling things now to get a single 'draft' ready?? Some or one of us mods can then look over it?

Have to rush to work now, but wish you all a good day.
:)AQ7

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

The best constructive criticism would be to trash it and start all over again.

But fine, have it your way. What's the point of it, again? I mean, I'm pretty sure that's the most important part of the whole thing. We need to know what the point of the "guideline" is, however unnecessary it may be. After that, then maybe steps could be taken to write something about it.

[EJ53]

The best constructive criticism would be to trash it and start all over again.

Kai.

This is an option...........and it may be what the Mods decide to do in due course (assuming they first accept that having any guideline is actually worthwhile)........This is simply our opportunity to ensure that their decision is based upon a proposed guideline which reflects the views of all interested members..........And it should indeed be presented with a list of reasons why interested members believe a guideline is/is not warranted.

All

To produce a 2nd/final draft for consideration by the MT, I think we should start with Lilly's revision of A50's First Draft..........list any ommissions from/additions to it that have been suggested.......decide which of those should be taken on board........and (if willing) ask A50/Lilly to produce the final draft.

So, these are (I think) the ommissions/additions which need a decision :-

Include a link to the forum index page? (EJ)

Steer novices to traditional/modern Natal astrology rather than horary (EJ)

Recommend reading of Education Board links to horary information before posing a question (Ray).......A valid recommendation for all areas (EJ)

Explain that the astrologer rather than astrology has limitations (Kai/Wintersprite)

Include A50 original comment re "helpful to include chart" (Starlink/others)

Include A50 original comment re "forum not made for extensive forecasting and cannot always provide quick fixes or miracles" (Starlink)

Advise novices to "keep it simple" (Starlink)

Keep it crisp, to the point and impersonal (Starlink)

Avoid misleading/misinformation (Kai)

Avoid linking astrology to psychology (Waybread)

Astrology does reveal concrete events (Waybread)

Questions do not require "poignancy" (Waybread)

Observe copyright laws (Rouge Red)

Guideline serves as a reminder to all rather than just information for newcomers (A4U)

And, the members list of pros/cons for having a guideline is as follows :-

?????

EJ:)

[RayAustin]

EJ, :)


Kai/Ray

As Charm points out, our aim should be to provide constructive, objective comments on the draft rather than it's creator. It's ok to be negative........that is an essential part of constructive criticism.........but it's not ok to be personal.


I can not speak for Kai, but I am not getting personal in the least; my comments have been constructive. My comments have been on the work, and the heart of the matter, and I fail to see where what you say is coming from.

I'm glad that everyone's comments/suggestions are being summarized as they have. Question is, who will re-write the final draft? Astro50, or someone else (not that it matters, just asking, I find it hard how it could be completely a collaborative effort)?

Ray:)

[aquarius7000]

Ok, since I have a couple of minutes now, I might as well put some thoughts down:

Suggest dropping words like *limitations* altogether (be it astrology or astrologers), and putting it in a more positive and relaxed note like: Astrology can show us trends, how things are likely to develop, the area of life that holds importance for a native (natal astro) or may become important for a certain period of time through use of predictive astro, by looking at accentuation of houses through placement of planets.

Also suggest to list up the various branches of Astrology (incl horary) like an index (even mention that we have boards/sub-boards for each/these branches, and putting a two-line explanation next to each branch name. Perhaps we do not need to list up all the sub-branches, if that goes beyond the scope of the post.

So, to begin with, probably first a few words on Astrology in general (think there is enough material for that)

Then list up the main branches like:

o Natal Astrology: this mainly deals with studying the native, his personality and the areas of life that he might be of importance for him. It is based upon the native's date, time and place of birth, using which the native's personal natal chart can be created (visit www.astro.com (http://www.astro.com) for this).

o Predictive Astrology: this is used to indicate the likely trends and developments in the future, but can also be used to study the past. The techniques used here vary from studying transits (momentary movement of planets) to planetary returns and progressions (which deal more with developments over a longer span of time).

o Relational Astrology: this is used to understand how two natives stand or relate to eachother. Again, there are various techniques to do this such as synastry: comparison of two natal charts, and/or composite: a 'natal' chart of the relationship itself, and which looks at the relationship as a separate entity.

o Horary Astrology: this is based on the chart created for the moment, where the moment, at best, corresponds with the time the querent came up with the question. It leaves all birth details of the querent out of study. Furthermore, the chart drawn up is used to study that particular question only and, so, will reflect the background related to that question.

o Medical Astrology: this branch of Astrology uses the natal chart to study the basic physical constitution and health of the native, how certain planetary placements in signs and houses as well as the aspects they make with eachother may give the native certain physical and psychological strengths and weaknesses. By studying the current transits in relation to the natal chart, one may also be able to see indications of proneness to injuries/health problems and development of the native's health in general.

And so on... Of course, these are only certain suggestions/some material from my side. And, btw, I would also strongly recommend to take that bit about: this forum is a place for students of Astrology to discuss Astrology, share related experiences and thereby learn from eachother.

:)aquarius7000

[starlink]

Okay, well then how about someone who knows how to be objective and can list more than two "camps" of astrology when there are more branches in astrology than there are on a bonzai tree.

Yes indeed Kai. For starters I think we should not even have to go into so much detail as to tell them about every branch of astrology. Your Bonzai example says it all.

We can maybe just say:
There are two schools of astrology, traditional and modern.
Maybe we can give one link for the traditional and one for the modern. We dont have to spell the whole thing out here.

Astrology contains a great variety of different subjects. One astrologer alone could not possibly go deeply into all of these. It would be sufficient for the beginning student of astrology to start with natal astrology alone.

(Soon they will come upon articles and reading from books what other branches are anyways (if they are serious), like mundane, horary, election, astrocartografy, political, medical and such. And also, after a while they will figure out what attracts them most and then can choose one of these branches to specialize in. But all that does not, i.m.o. belong here, in the GHL. When I started, I did not even think of going any further until I knew my basics inside out.)


However,I don't feel what has been written is adequate, Lilly quote


OK, then lets just tackle point for point. We should first of all be unanimous about what this lounge needs.

These are some of my suggestions and please do take one by one apart for adding/deleting comments I would say.

Start by putting up again a reminder of the rules (the pop up) but this time not as a pop up but just bold or something.

1. Study is a must I think, otherwise, why bother with astrology at all. So we start by the obvious: this is a learning site.
We have to provide material: we put in links like suggested above. We have God knows how many of those. Education board was made for this.

2. What they can learn from astrology. (we can choose the main one's like knowing thy selves and much later, help others.

2.a) Expectations, what you can and cannot expect.

3. Know some natal basics like planets/houses, rulerships, before attempting horary.
Give link to horary basics in Education Board, as well as natal basics.
Add link of Arian Maverick on how to set up a horary question
Add link on how to upload a chart here via the "go advanced" button which I think is the easiest one. Aquarius7000 wrote a very clear one about that.

Ok, that is a starter. We can copy/paste some of Astrologer50's sentences as well as Lilly's and others. I also would avoid any personal comments, like: "I would do it like this but you can do it like that if you wish".


Just because someone has an idea doesn't mean we all have to rush to embrace it.

My point as well, that's why we should do what we originally did, but not so haphazard, go point for point until we are clear about it.

It's apparent that any criticism of the original is now going to be met with cries of protest, and perceived as being *personal*.

Not necessarily. We can suggest and others can suggest something different. We choose the one that sounds best. There does not have to be criticism. A personal opinion is best.

[Shining Ray]

Everyone's a critic! :) I mean that we can all find flaws in an original idea or concept (Uranus) as this is how life works, a new idea is thought of it, it looks exciting but does it have it's limitations, how practical is it, will it work (Saturn). The Saturn/Uranus opposition is really evident now.

Overall the discussion is constructive. Maybe you need to choose a few individual people to take the task on, as too many cooks can spoil the broth. :D

http://livinghealthy.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/11/toomanycooksblog.jpg

I am probably not being constructive either lol.

[natasa812]

Sorry to interrupt, but I loooooooooooved this one:

Include A50 original comment re "forum not made for extensive forecasting and cannot always provide quick fixes or miracles" (Starlink)
(from EJ)

I did not read all posts, I hope I contribute (somehow), this is a lovely Forum and conversations are always constructive because everyone is deeply and in detail concerned about the subject.
My Sag. non detailed nature is no excuse but I am trying to contribute and to be constructive and to stay on a subject.
I have only one suggestion (not much) - what helped me in the begining (and I am still in the begining) is the visual presentation of any subject (like planets, aspects and so on...) and of course a step by step introduction is prefered.
Thank you all again
Natasa

[EJ53]

The thinking/direction here is clearer; everyone is trying to be constructive and the general view is that "something" should be produced for consideration by the Management Team.

To avoid confusion through information overload, it would be sensible to close the thread now; draw up a 2nd draft and present that for comment/agreement as a new thread......taking it on from there to the MT for consideration.

At some stage though, we have to stop making comments and start listening to them.

Now leaving this kitchen to the more experienced cooks:D

EJ:)

[astrologer50]

Starlink

I think we have to face the fact that lots of people come here 'not to study' and just want answers 'dropped in their laps' and not necessarily want to Learn or go into Astrology.

I would like to see Tim's link in draft though http://www.geocities.com/wilsontctc/ and possibility yes...
www.bobmarksastrolgoy.com (http://www.bobmarksastrolgoy.com) cos the basic lessons as SO good for beginners, maybe just until we have an equivalent on 'Educ board' maybe..

as with any other link threads
1) how to post a chart
2) something on different house systems, cos this is massive bone of contention for quite a few. poss with links if the native wants to investigate
3) no point in explaining Traditional or modern astrologer without explaining (2) above....

[starlink]

Dear all,
We have found Charmvirgo and Astrologer50 willing to work on a 2nd draft, taking into account the best of what has been suggested up till now.

The best way to go about this is to go point for point, not too elaborate, giving as many links as possible. Tim's link is of course very recommendable. I think his link is also mentioned in the Education board so we dont need to wait for an equivalent. Once someone has written about a certain subject, the easiest way is to direct people to the source.

Charm and A50, I would print out maybe the posts some of us wrote with all the different points mentioned, that makes it easier to see if you have missed something or not.
Once it is ready, send your draft to Aquarius7000 via PM. I am on holidays as of tuesday next week so wont be able to help with the steps after that.

I will now close this thread and when we have a final draft, will notify the community of this. Thank you all for your participation!

Starlink

[aquarius7000]

Hi all,

Just a brief note to let you all know that a 'Welcome to the world of Astrology' post was put up (as a sticky) at the Greenhorns' Lounge. Also, the forum rules have been 'touched up' a bit with some additional info. Hope this will be a sort of a guideline and help, esp for newcomers, to better understand Astrology as well as the Astrologers' Community. Thanks to all of you, too for your encouragement and esp to Astro50, Shining Ray and Charmvirgo for their ready help.

:)AQ7

[BobMarshall]

Hi,

Thanks for sharing the useful information.

Astrology's best use is for the enhancement of awareness, alleviation of self imposed limitation, and the promotion of self actualization and empowerment through self-discovery and positive individuation.